Siege on Tolkeen Series

[ExoKnight]

I stopped playing RIFTS right before Siege on Tolkeen. I was wondering if anyone can give me a breakdown of the major happenings in the war. Also, are the six or seven books worth tracking down? What are the best of the series? Do they have good source material, adventures, etc? Did anyone play Siege on Tolkeen from beginning to end? How did it go?

[Myrrhibis]

I'll let someone else fill in the highlights.

But several of us in our group have the series. We liked it overall (thought the resulting 'strength' of the CS was questionable). Good fodder going forward. IIRC some good spells & TW items.

We didn't go thru it - we did run some parallel adventures (the War was going on, we had to free refugee-POWs from several camps nearby, go hunting for someone who was in Tolkeen during the Fall).

U might be able to get away w/ the final book/Aftermath - sums up how it changes the general landscape & power groups in North America & related factions. As Tolkeen-falling is the basis for the "current" books, I think that would be sufficient if you didn't want to utilize classes, items, and events.

[Vrykolas2k]

It was... ok.
It completely ignored World Book 23 for the Final Siege book and Aftermath (in point of fact to the point it makes me wonder if the people who wrote the Siege on Tolkeen books even READ the previous world books at all...).
My group played the Siege, but... due to a lot of things the PCs did, things happened a differently than canon. The CS still won, but pretty much nothing from the last book happened. The CS definately had a Pyhric victory, their credibility (due to death camps and the like, the existence of which got leaked about the middle of the war) is shot, the military is in shambles, and there are a lot of former Tolkeen kingdom beings who are irate with them (and many have the power to do some serious damage).
Each of the mega-cities got hit by teleporters at least once, weakening the citizens' trust in the CS's ability to keep them safe.
As far as canon endings... I'd have to hold my nose. Evidently a CS army can survive for months without resupply and then engage in a major attack, as well as pretty much ignore several hives of xiticix ("What's that? Xiticix? I disbelieve illusion. Nothing happens."). Another army can just steam-roll right over some pretty hefty defenders and dragons, one of the most powerful and arrogant races in existence, just leave and allow their homes to be destroyed. It's tantamount to you abandoning your home in fear of a few mice, when the logical choice would be to destroy them.
*Shrug.* Some people love the series, me, I'm kind of "meh" about the whole thing.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I liked the Series. I think they're worth having. If for nothing else, due to the fact that the Rifts world from that point forward takes all of the happenings into account as Canon.

I don't think Aftermath is technically part of the series. It does come AFTER the war though. It's one of the better books put out for Rifts in years and updates most of the rifts world to 109PA.

If you get no other book, get that one.

The rest of the series has caused dozens and dozens of threads, it's a real love/hate thing for fans. Some fans hate it and everything about it and rage like it kicked their puppy. Some people love it.

It has some mistakes. Namely he fact that it's pretty clear that the closest the writers ever got to the military was watching top gun and Chuck Norris movies in the 80s. The ebb and flow of the war goes one way, then the other.. then the other but it's more to 'sell books' than what you'd likely see in a logical war. There -is- some hand waving for both sides. (( War starts with Tolkeen suddenly and unexplained, having a magical thing that can suck up tack nuke attack. later in the war there's a thing with the CS and the bugs that is by and large vilified as more hand waving.))

But that being said it's written for ENTERTAINMENT and play potential. Not a 'REAL WORLD WAR". If you can get past that, it's fun.

A side note. the CyberKnight book is in the middle of thhe series, and while it pertains to the war tangential, it's more just a Cyberknight sourcebook. (( It's decent))

I personally recommend it.

Pick up Aftermath if you get nothing else. It tells you what all the world is like after the war. Then pick up the other books as you can. If you're worried about cost I think you can get them on PDF.

[Lenwen]

Truth.. to it's absolute fullest.

And the handwavium for the coalition was just incredibly bad...

[Pepsi Jedi]

If you take a step back and quit waving the "NAZI" Flag quite so hard... it's not quite as bad as you're making out.

I am currently reading the series. I just finished sorcerer's revenge and just about to start Cyber Knights. I must say I am strongly in the hate department. Not so much for the war happening, but the way that the books portray Tolkeen as fault for the war and the CS as a victim also. The first paragraph is a transcript from Erin Tarn which SHE blames Tolkeen for not bowing down to the CS and move. I was like, WTH is this?!?!?! Is Erin Tarn Stupid? Does she not know history? If NOBODY stands up to the CS, they will grow and get even more powerful.

Or perhaps she DOES know history, and the hopeless standing up to a superior opponent and goading them into war to kill you for no gain is just a bad idea? Tolkeen for it's magical might was small and the CS was large and the conclusion to the war was known before it started. It was just the gory details in the middle. ((And they are pretty bad)) That doesn't change the fact that the end game was known.

It's like if Cuba picked a fight with the US. They might put up a big fight, but they're going to lose when it's all over-with, so Picking the fight if you have other options, isn't all that smart.

The CS ARE Nazi's, they WILL purge everything that isn't human and 100% support the CS. It's not IF, it's when.

Eh... that's a bit of a simplified viewpoint. It's easy to paint them with that brush and just be done with it. They are human supremacists, but if you look at what happened to the earth and humanity in general.... you can understand how fear might drive a group of people that direction. It doesn't excuse the bad things, but explanation can be found. And they're not all 100% evil Nazi's. The leadership is pretty bad, when it comes to non humans, but the average CS citizen is just a person. There is more than one human nation that's not CS that they get along with just fine. I'm not saying you're 'wrong' but that view point is a very very simplistic one and a bit on the extreme side. "They're evil so they must be nazi's and are 100% evil. Period" is a little juvenile in it's application to a country in the position the CS is.

Anybody with even a bit of brain would realize Erin Tarns precious Lazlo IS on the CS hitlist. Maybe not today, but soon when they are even MORE POWERFUL, they will come with their armies and burn Lazlo to the ground. Will she be so keen to for everybody to move from HER own homeland?

And that's the thing. Lazlo is far enough away that it's not going to be too soon. the CS's expansion will 'eventually' lead them there, but between now and then there is time for the CS to possibly change. Lazlo is a peaceful place built on the rule of law and inclusion. They're not quick to just count someone out 100%. When Karl dies, his son might not be so hardline. We (( OOCLY)) Know he's not. he's smarter and less extreme than his father. (( The son accepts magic more, and knows about the Vanguard but runs interfearance for them. he's also wanting to crack down on bradford, ect))

You're speaking in 100% certainty and the world doesn't work like that. Lazlo and it's people are idealists. Not fatalists. All in all it WOULD have been easier if Tolkeen moved. If they spent the effort they put into war, in moving their city, they could have moved it way out of the CS' way and all lived. Instead they were all "COME AT ME BRO!!!" and.. got their teeth kicked in.

Of course, that was bad, but then tolkeen seems to have a lot of bad luck getting allies.

Could have to do with most of their leaders being evil in alignment.

The leader of the Cyber Knights decide for some unfathomable reason to not defend tolkeen from the CS, but the messed up logic is that the Cyber Knights do not make alliance to any group.

The logic is present. The CyberKNights don't fight for kings, or kingdoms. They fight for the people. They don't swear allegence or allow people to swear to them. They help everyone equallly.. Why do they not defend tolkeen from the CS? There's more than one reason.

1) Anyone allied with tolkeen will be put on the threat list by the CS. To be taken out. The Cyberknights are a few thousand strong, in the world. The CS have MILLIONS in their army. To side with Tolkeen would have the Cyberknights taken off the neutral "They're ok as long as they don't get in our way.. take out if you can in secret" to "KILL ON SIGHT"

That makes it harder to be a cyberkngiht if you're all dead, and the people suffer.

2) Tolkeen is being run by evil people by this point. and then (( as you've read in sorcerers revenge)) Have teamed up with armys of inhuman demons that are raping, pillaging and eating their foes. not something the Cyberknights usually endorse.

3) There is a scisim in the Cyber knights. Aboout half of them have DEFIED Coake and went to help out anyway. Many of them have found themselves horrified by the actions of Tolkeen but are trying to help the common person, as opposed to the tolkeen army. Many die by tolkeens army when they stand up and try and stop the Tolkeenites from eating or torturing and raping their enemies. But yeah, about half the CK's are there 'anyway'... and are finding it NOT what they thought it was.

Wow, that's something I might expect from a greasy politician, but not the leader of an order of honorable heroes.

You're not looking deep enough. If all the CK's die, who's going to do their job? And if tolkeen is allied with demons and worse.. why team up with them?

I mean, again, the CS ARE NAZI's,

And again you're painting with only two brushes. Black and stark white. It's not really that simple.

they have made it clear through word and dead that they will KILL anything that is not human and does not support the CS 100%.

No, but after the sorcerer's revenge, they getclose to that towards the end of the war. They are allies with other human nations and city states. Tolkeen was a city state of dangerous magic users that were allied with inhuman invaders of earth. it was feared that they would do anything to hurt humanity, and might brook with darker powers.

Turns out... the CS fears are 100% justified whn.. tolkeen does exactly what they're acccused of.. and team up with army's of demons to come after humanity.

They are burning and killing whole villages and leaving NOTHING alive. I mean, how much more does it take to get the freaking Cyber Knight and hero leaders involved?

After the sorcerer's revenge they do. It's scorched earth. Then again if you were a human and saw armies of giant demons eating your budies and raping people to death then eating them and slaughtering humans by the 100s.... can you blame them?

Yes, it's wrong but tolkeen didn't just sit back sweet and innocent.

As for the CK's, I've pointed out some of the reasons (( which the CK book goes into in more detail)) Why Coake told the CK's to stay out of it... and even with that, aboout half of them went anyway.. and are kinda sad they did.

How would you feel if you signed on to help people and then suddenly there were demons pulling off people's heads and sucking out their brains while laughing about it?

Then there is the matter with lazlo not getting involved because they are peaceful hippies or some such nonsense.

They've always been peaceful hippies.

Look at what I wrote at top, did nobody point out to lazlo and Erin Tarn that sooner or later the CS will be coming for them?

Sooner or later yeah. right now. No. NNot to mention Lazlo would have to 100% cross CS held Territory to even get to the fight. So chances are they'd be engaged and killed just on the way TO the fight. Much less helping..

Add in that "THE LEADERS OF TOLKEEN ARE EVIL AND TEAMED UP WITH ARMYS OF HUMAN EATING DEMONS" and well......

Finally, there is the federation of magic. I find it hard to believe that the leader of the federation of magic, who is driven by hate of the cs, to ignore his biggest chance to hurt the CS by joining tolkeen. The argument that there was some payback for tolkeen for not helping the federation of magic when they need it, makes the leader of the federation of magic seem like a fool and a two dimensional character.

The Fed has their own plans. Why help out another group when you can sit back watch take notes while growing stronger. (( Aftermath says they are, and are finally teaming up down there.)) Again, jumping into a losing fight on principal sounds great in comics, but in real life it just gets you killed.

It's smarter to let the CS and Tolkeen bash each other's brains out and then act on the loser. With the CS turning towards the bugs after tolkeen, it's even better. Smarter to gather your forces and wait, than jump into a fight premature and die. The Fed are bad guys too. That means selfish. As in. "let the other fraker die. I'm gonna live!!"

Of course, this is ignoring a lot of other players in rifts who have a beef with the CS like the Naruni Enterprises, gargoyle empire, and half a dozen more groups who the CS have stepped on in the past.

And that ignores that most of those are evil and aren't going to team up under any one leadership for anything as they'd never trust one another.

Naruni.. weapons dealers. War is good for business. why would they step in other than to sell more guns?

Gargoyle empire? they can't even take out NGR.. you expect them to fly ovver an ocean to get involved with stupid piddly humans fighting each other? BAH! Let um kill each other off. The more that tolkeen kills the less the gargoyles have to.

those other groups.. usually too small to do much of anything.

Again, the idea of a war with tolkeen is fine, but so much of the books comes across as unbelievable (even in rifts). The tone of the books try hard to make you feel sympathetic to the CS soldiers who are just following orders(where have I heard that line before), you know, as they burn a house down, torture civilians and kill everybody including children. While trying to make the tolkeen seem just as bad because they dared stay and fight, sure they made pacts and used demons to fight (Like you wouldn't in that situation)

No. I wouldn't. And that's pretty telling of your mindset. You're villifying the CS for taking out a threat who sees nothing wrong with making packs and using demons to kill humans. No... you do not make pacts with armys of inhuman demonic evil just to win.. unless you're evil yourself.

You're acting like there was no choice. There was. Tolkeen could have simply ran. Is it optimal? No. Of course not. But it was an option. They instead CHOSE to team up with inhuman demons. Should tolkeen have HAD to run? In a perfect world no! They shouldn't have had to... but.. they chose not to. That fight was a LONG time coming.. andd they chose to team up with and become evil. They --where-- everything the CS accused them of. And they gave as good as they got in that war.

Does the war bounce back and forth a few times somewhat unrealistically? yes. I said that in my other post, but it was for 'Entertainment" annd "Selling books". It's not just "OMG huh???" for 'no reason.

and did a little torturing themselves on the soldier (you know, the ones that tortured and killed innocent people and would not hesitate to kill you and everyone you love, yea..poor soldiers).

Ohhhhhhhh so torturing people is ok as long as it's not your team? Like the CS didn't think the same way when they went to war? That thhose inhuman monsters at tolkeen didn't like to torture people and make deals with demons? Oh wait.. they did. lol

Both sides are guilty of that. If anything the tolkeen forces did alot more torture than the CS did. The CS tended to do the entire 'kill dispassionately' part. (( not all but more than the gleeful demonic type killing))

But both are guilty of horrors of war. Not just one side.

Like I said, it just frustrates me on how bad these books are. I knew there would be some things I would not like from the tidbits I read from other posts, but I didn't realize how bad it was going to be.

Well some of yourdislike might be from looking at it as just a 100% black or 100% white thing with one side being the evil NAZI NAZI NAZI bad guys and the other side (( who team up with armys of demons who... eat humans)) as the 100% GOOD GOOD GOOD guys.... looking at it like that then reading the books very likely does have them coming out crappy.

And while there __________________ARE___________________ Faults to the books... many of the things you've cited are not as you're presenting them.

I know someone was writing an alternative history supplement with one being if tolkeen had survived and someone else was creating a supplement on time travel. I really hope those books get made so we can have a way to change things or at least see how tolkeen would have turned up.

Kevin has said he's not a fan of time travel.

There was a recent article in the rifter on time travel though. I suspect that's as close as you're going to get. Palladium can't even get out the normal world books it has lined up. They're not going to start a divergent line. Heck how long's it been since a Chaos Earth book?

CLEARLY you're able to morph and change your personal games as you like. And many many people hated the tolkeen war (( for many reasons)) So you're not alone there. Just look over some of the things I've pointed out an see if it makes a LITTLE more sense. Might make it able to be swallowed easier.

There are faults. Everyone has a different list, but there's good stuff there too.

[Pepsi Jedi]

To: Pepsi Jedi
Subject: CS = Nazis

Poland '39. Maybe they should have ran, and maybe the Allies should have let Hitler keep Poland? Certainly der Fuhrer would have been content with what he had after that, right?

Not an accurate comparison. Poland didn't have 3/4ths of the North American Continent to relocate to.

Nor was Poland making deals with literal unholy demon armies...

Ect ad infin... You're comparing apples to mopeds.

[Shark_Force]

relocating is not exactly a simple proposition. moving an entire city plus an entire nation of people who live in the countryside around it is even more challenging.

now, allying with demons? ok, that's not exactly a morally good choice. or particularly intelligent for that matter. but defending your homes instead of running? i can't really fault anyone for that choice. heck, lots of wars have been fought where something like that worked (of course, also lots of wars where it doesn't work, but it's not like there was zero chance of success).

but hey, if you think moving hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children across hundreds of miles of trackless wilderness infested with xiticix, various supernatural predators from the rifts, and who knows what else, so that you can start over from scratch and leave behind the city you've created at great difficulties instead of defending your homes is the only reasonable solution, i guess that's your opinion, and even if i think it's ridiculous, i can't tell you that isn't your opinion.

tolkeen made some questionable decisions (like, say, apparently not making any sort of shelters in the city in case the CS attacked them, not bothering to have any sort of scouts or guards behind them, launching a full-scale frontal assault when their only reasonable chance of winning the war was to keep it guerilla until the CS decides resources expended are too great for the benefit to be gained... heck, the list goes on), and largely did not have the moral high ground (at least, not the leadership; i would argue that the motives of the average combatant on the tolkeen side were probably purer than that of the average CS soldier).

simply put, i don't think it's unreasonable at all to presume that the surrounding nations would decide that now is the time for the CS to be stopped, either, when they make the transition from defending their borders to attacking those around them. if not directly, then at least covertly.

[Lenwen]

It's like Cuba picked a fight with the US. They might put up a big fight, but they're going to lose when it's all over-with, so picking the
the fight if you have other options, isn't all that smart.

Couple things PJ.

1) - its not like Cuba picking a fight with the US. (Tolkeen obviously being Cuba in your refrence.) Because Tolkeen did not "pick" the fight.
They choose (and rightfully so) to try to defend their lands and their homes.. The Coalition was 100% completely the aggressor in this war
And that is not debateable..

2) - The Coalition would not have given Tolkeen the time needed to do a move of their city as it was .. and as you have already pointed out
Where would they even be able to move as they were already too close to Coalition space, and lets be real the CS would never allow a city of
Caster's and deebee's to cross their territory to rebuild some where else ..

The CS ARE Nazi's they WILL purge everything that isn't human and 100% support the CS. It's not IF, it's written

Eh... that's a bit of a simplified vewpoint. It's easy to paint themwith that brush and just be done with it.

Actually they are exactly that tho PJ. Their government has modeled their entire sociaty after the Nazies and that is just how it is its not
oversimplified .. That is it .. 100% completely right on .. Sure they are not thee VERY Nazies from that age, but their government has modeled
their sociaty after them and they are exactly that down to the "Secret Police" ..

Will she be so keen to for everyody to move from HER own homeland?

And that's the thing. Lazlo is far enough away that it's not going to be too soon. the CS's expansion will "eventually" lead them there, but
between now and then there is time for the CS to possibly change.

The CS will not change.. They are now an expansionistic empire and they will not change. Even when the son takes the reigns of power he is more
meglomaniacal then his father, and he is a better PR guy by all accounts.. which means he will get away with even more .. and be able to twist
the public even easier then the father has been able to ..

Instead they were all "OME AT ME BRO!!!" and.. got their teeth kicked in.

Actually anyone would be like that defending their "HOME" .. And rightfully so .. I might add .. You are acting as it if is wrong .. for them
to be like that .. defending their homes ..

Of course, that was bad, but then tolkeen seems to hae alot of bad luck getting allies.

Could have to do with most of their leaders being evil.

It is the Coalition's government that is evil.. Tolkeen's leadership was not evil till they were pushed that way. (Tho some were of course, just
not as many as the Coalition's entire government is)

1) Anyone allied with Tolkeen will be put on the threat list by the CS. To be taken out.

CK's already are on the hitlist ..

2) Tolkeen is being run by evil people by this point.

So then you already know Tolkeen was not evil at the onset of the war, but leader's alignment's changed .. to match the Coalition's leadership's
alignments ..

if tolkeen is allied with demons and worse.. why team up with them ?

Fact of the matter is Tolkeen only turned to the Demon's due to *NONE* of the Coalition's BIG enemies wanting to jump into the war on the side
of Tolkeen's .. This is one of the ---> LARGEST <--- Hand wavium's in the entire Series ! ! ! Decades long grudge match .. between the CS
and the Federation .. yet they do not lift finger 1 .. to hurt the CS in the absolute BEST chance EVER !! I call shenanigans .. Not only would
the Federation attack .. so would have Lazlo under these circumstances .. and no PJ, not all under 1 Leadership .. but on 3 totally different
war front's each autonomus (sp?) under its own military leaderships ..

And do not get me started about how the Siege retconned Dragon's an their "50 mile" this is my home come in here an die rational ..

I mean, again, the CS ARE NAZI's

And again you're panting with only two bruches. Black and stark white. It's not really that simple.

Actually it is. Nazi Germany was not 100% completely Nazies .. beleive it or not there was another party there but they were the minority do you
think the world seen them as that tho ? Negative, the world seen Germany as "Nazi" plain an simple ..

Same thing applies to the Government that model's their sociaty after that party system ..

Turns out .. the CS fears are 100% justified whn.. tolkeen does exactly what they'er acccused of.. and team up wit harmy's of demons to come
after humanity.

Couple things ..
1) - When did tolkeen go after Coalition civilian population center's ?

2) - Tolkeen only went to the Demon's due to the script immunitiies of no other enemies wanting to jump in against the Coalition at the BEST
time they EVER .. could have .. yet for (and some of the stupidest) what ever reasons .. choose not to take the chance to put the CS BACK in
check .. (Script Immunities)

and then suddenly there were demons pulling off people's heads an sucking out their brains while laughing about it?

Again .. your acting like the Coalition did not push Tolkeen to make that pact .. Your acting like Tolkeen had a bunch of Allies from which to
choose from .. and they choose the demons ..

I've already pointed out that the Coalition was not and would not wait for a timely evacuation of the Tolkeen city .. Hence the "Siege" in the
first place .. Instead of a "Hey you guys have X amount of time to get outta dodge" emmissary .. (Yet again showing just how blood thirsty the
coalition really was at the onset of the war)

"THE LEADERS OF TOLKEEN ARE EVIL AND TEAMED UP WITH ARMYS OF HUMAN EATING DEMONS"

Again I point out they had no choice. Again I point out the two most glaring reasons ..
1) - The Coalition had no intention of allowing Tolkeen threw their territory to evac the city so they could rebuild some where else .. that is
common knowledge ..

2) - The enemies of the Coalition did not accept any act's of Alliances .. (Script Immunities) Based on garbage reasoning..

And that ignores that most of those are evil and aren't going to team up under any one leadership for anything as they'd never trust one another.

All possible allies would NEVER .. have had to team up under any 1 leadership .. as they were too spread out for that especially with out long
range instant com .. They would effectively all 3 (Tolkeen, Federation and Lazlo) team up to fight the Coalition on 3 completely different War
front's under each's own military leadership .. sticking to their own theater's of war ..

Naruni.. weapons dealers. War is good for business. why would they step in other then to sell more guns?

You need look no further then the Coalition's determination to push the Naruni off the continent .. for your answer PJ.

You're villifying the CS for taking out a threat who sees nothing wrong with making packs an using demons to kill humans.

Are you attempting to imply how ever that Tolkeen was doing such a thing before the Coalition pushed them into doing that PJ ?

Or do you deny that in fact it was the Coalition's expansionistic ways that pushed Tolkeen into doing what your condemning ? (Now that is
ironic if you think about it)

Well some of yourdislike might be from looking at it as just a 100% white thing with one side being ethe evil NAZI NAZI NAZI bad guys and the
otherside((who team up witharmys of demons who.. eat humans)) as the 100% GOOD GOOD GOOD guys...

I find this particular passage very interesting for various reason (that I shall point out) ..

1) - You condemn a city for having dealings with Demons ( while the Coalition's leader's are JUST as evil as I might add, which in an of it self
is vastly entertaining to me) due to Your side (The Coalition) pushing them into such dealings in the first place ..

2) - You try to imply Tolkeen was ALL evil due to the Army's of Demons (did everyone have a favorite pet demon at their side ?)..
yet try to make the coalition into this sympathetic military where the guy with the laser pistol doing the shooting cause he was told to ..
is not as evil as the person who gave the order to do the shooting .. Sorry PJ that does not compute ..

3) - Just as you said Tolkeen had two choices .. Fight or move .. So too does your "Good" Coalition soilder have two choices .. shoot those unarmed
Tolkeen civilian's .. as per his orders .. or not and take a courtmartial or what ever their military justice system does..

You make a good arguement .. yet you do not hold your own side to the same thing's you hold other's too .. which begs the question is it because
it would show them in unfavorable light PJ ?

[Pepsi Jedi]

To: Pepsi Jedi
Subject: CS = Nazis

Poland '39. Maybe they should have ran, and maybe the Allies should have let Hitler keep Poland? Certainly der Fuhrer would have been content with what he had after that, right?

Not an accurate comparison. Poland didn't have 3/4ths of the North American Continent to relocate to.

Nor was Poland making deals with literal unholy demon armies...

Ect ad infin... You're comparing apples to mopeds.

And your compairing death camp victims to Einsatzgrouppen (or however it's spelled)

I didn't compare death camps to anything. Please don't put words into my mouth man.

You missed the point entirely, it didn't matter where Tolkeen relocated in America, because the CS WANTS THE WHOLE CONTINENT.

It matters in that it would take the CS A long time to take over the WHOLE CONTINENT. They want it but it'll be a good long time before they can realize their dreams. Time in which the CS may change.

Move to another continent? Okay, Tolkeen does that. CS now wants the whole f'ing world, and 'cause they got a whole continent to work with, they can now take it. Move to another world? CS gots the whole world. it will take more. Domino Theory, except the threat is real.

in 100s or 1000s of years perhaps. You're ignoring the fact that the CS isn't really out of hand. This world was ours first, and while not every dbee or magic user is a true threat, those which make deals with inhuman demonic invaders from other worlds and dimensions are. You're talking about possible futures.

What about the possible future where that group of mages and dbees that see no problem teaming up with armies of demons, grows more powerful and sweeps over the CS and finishes what the rifts began, wiping out humanity in north America? .. and oh.. well down the road that's not enough for those demon lovers. They go on to take out the NGR too.. ect ect... it's a Domino Theory, except the threat is real.

On A personal level, lets say I'm you're neighbor, and want your house in addition to the rest of the block I have, and I've got a bunch of rednecks, thugs, and hate filled goons to back me up, and they ain't gonna turn from me, and all you got are people like the veterens of the Waffen SS on speed dial; and my men all have guns, armor, supplies, and a mean, vindictive, self-righteous disposition. Maybe you should just take what you can and move into the unclaimed wilderness filled with wild beasts and Gawd knows what. Now then, that would be completely uncalled for for me to do to you, wouldn't it?

And again, misrepresentation. If I came into your land and started squatting on it when most of your family died in a natural disaster, and was making pacts with demons and unholy cannibals and rapists and what not.. then no. It woulddn't be uncalled for at all. it might not be nice.. but it's not like it's crazy.

Ignoring all that, if you had 500 rednecks and came to kill me and I could either take myself and 20 nazi's and fight you and kill and maim and torutre you, till you whiped me out... or... run. Yeah. Running is the smart move. People have watched way too many movies. Sometimes running is what you have to do.

I mean, you're just minding your business and trying to be my friend, and all I want to do is kill people and take their stuff. THAT IS WHAT THE SITUATION REGARDING THE CS AND TOLKEEN WAS.

No it wasn't. But nice white wash.

The CS feared tolkeen because they were a powerful city state of Magic users and DBees that were gaining power and becoming a threat. That threat was made worse by the fact that the CS thought that Tolkeen might brook with stronger more evil powers and try and kill humans/humanity.

And..... Welll.... They were right.

Don't get me wrong. The CS wern't 100% innocent. Not by a long shot. They did some pretty horrible things in the war too.

But from their point of view.. this is OUR planet. HUMANs planet. And the Dbees are all invaders. They came while we were hurt and on the ropes and almost wiped out from the coming of rifts and they're OCCUPYING OUR PLANET. Against our wishes. To keep going with your analogies.. that's like.. if a plague took out much of your state.. 1 in 100 live.. and suddenly there's roaming bands or even stationary bands of nazi's living a few miles down the road. You didn't invite them. they came and they're occupying American soil... and you rally, gain numbers and try and drive them off. "oh well that's the Nazi's home now" Well. It was ours first and they're invading to squat on it"

Now that's simplifying things dramatically but the CS has a point. And it's not like they're out killing things just to kill things. They're trying to retake Earth, for the earthlings. Humans. Now..... they DO (( Please note this)) DO sometimes do things in a very bad way. But their overall goal isn't bad in and of itself.

And remember.. tolkeen was taken out for being a possible threat to the CS. A wild card. A city run by evil leaders. And one that made dark pacts with inhuman demonic monsters.

And when the war happened.... Tolkeen was a city state.. that --was-- a threat... that --was-- run by evil leaders, and one that --did-- make dark pacts with inhuman demonic monsters. It was everything that the CS feared it to be. _Everything_.

Now.. above you pointed out that the CS would keep growing. Eventually take over NA and then the world if left unchecked.

So would tolkeen. They showed their cards. Were run by evil beings, and would do anything, up to and including bringing in inhuman demonic monsters to fight and destroy humanity.

For all of that.... Some would call the CS heroes for putting down that threat.

Now.. that's going a bit too far on the other side. Neither was 'innocent' in the war.

But yes.. the war could have been avoided had Tolkeen relocated. It'd be decades if not centuries before the CS took over just the old US empire. Much less Canada and Mexico (( Probably way longer for both, considering.)).

Tolkeen refused and went even darker than the CS to try and win. And still lost.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It's like Cuba picked a fight with the US. They might put up a big fight, but they're going to lose when it's all over-with, so picking the
the fight if you have other options, isn't all that smart.

Couple things PJ.

1) - its not like Cuba picking a fight with the US. (Tolkeen obviously being Cuba in your refrence.) Because Tolkeen did not "pick" the fight.
They choose (and rightfully so) to try to defend their lands and their homes.

No. Tolkeen chose to not give up the ground they invaded and had taken from the humans.

The Coalition was 100% completely the aggressor in this war
And that is not debateable..

Sure it is. The CS fired the first shot but Tolkeen knew it was coming and chhose to engage instead of withdraw. They also teamed up with demons and unleashed them on humanity. They did fight a defensive war, but they surely chose to fight.

2) - The Coalition would not have given Tolkeen the time needed to do a move of their city as it was

Tolkeen had the time. They chose not to. Everyone else told them to get out of the way. Including Lazlo. Tolkeen instead went "COME AT ME BRO!" and got their ass kicked.

.. and as you have already pointed out
Where would they even be able to move as they were already too close to Coalition space, and lets be real the CS would never allow a city of
Caster's and deebee's to cross their territory to rebuild some where else ..

Well. I know it's a hard concept... but instead of heading east across CS territory. They could... You know..... Head.... the other way? West? Into all that land that's hardly claimed? ALL that land out there?

The CS ARE Nazi's they WILL purge everything that isn't human and 100% support the CS. It's not IF, it's written

Eh... that's a bit of a simplified vewpoint. It's easy to paint themwith that brush and just be done with it.

Actually they are exactly that tho PJ. Their government has modeled their entire sociaty after the Nazies and that is just how it is its not
oversimplified .. That is it .. 100% completely right on .. Sure they are not thee VERY Nazies from that age, but their government has modeled
their sociaty after them and they are exactly that down to the "Secret Police" ..

You mean like the CIA? Is America modeled after the Nazi's ?

I did say they were human supremacists. But Nazi's they're not. The Nazi's were not crawling up out of a dark age, beseiged by inhuuman monsters and magical forces from other dimensions.

Will she be so keen to for everyody to move from HER own homeland?

And that's the thing. Lazlo is far enough away that it's not going to be too soon. the CS's expansion will "eventually" lead them there, but
between now and then there is time for the CS to possibly change.

The CS will not change..

---- In your opinion----

The CS will change if Kevin wants them to change. Karl's son is not the extreamist his father is annd already side handedly approves of magic. You can't say they WON'T CHANGE!! Anything could happen. You don't THINK they'll change.

They are now an expansionistic empire and they will not change.

America was expansionist.. but we changed.

Even when the son takes the reigns of power he is more meglomaniacal then his father, and he is a better PR guy by all accounts.. which means he will get away with even more .. and be able to twist the public even easier then the father has been able to ..

Or... use his better ability to get what he wants to change the CS from a xenophobic magic hating society, into one that gradually starts to accept that some magic is ok, and not every Dbee wants us all dead.

Extremely likely? No. But possible. We've seen that he doesn't approve of all the stuff his father does and has gone out of his way to protect the vanguard and is trying to stop some of the more evil aspects of the CS. It IS possible. (( remember.. the CS does what it does, to sell books. lol))

Instead they were all "OME AT ME BRO!!!" and.. got their teeth kicked in.

Actually anyone would be like that defending their "HOME" .. And rightfully so .. I might add .. You are acting as it if is wrong .. for them
to be like that .. defending their homes ..

They're defending OUR HOMES, that they invaded and stole and claimed as their own. You're acting as if all tthat land they were on was not US land held by humans. The CS are the remnants and descendants of US humans. They're taking back what was theirs.

Of course, that was bad, but then tolkeen seems to hae alot of bad luck getting allies.

Could have to do with most of their leaders being evil.

It is the Coalition's government that is evil.. Tolkeen's leadership was not evil till they were pushed that way. (Tho some were of course, just
not as many as the Coalition's entire government is)

Open up your book and check the alignments. Read the writeups on the leaders. "Pushed" or "Ran" fact was they were evil magical beings that willingly teamed up with demonic armies to try and whipe out a kingdom of man.

(( and for the record. I know many of the CS leadership are evil too. But that wasn't in question))

1) Anyone allied with Tolkeen will be put on the threat list by the CS. To be taken out.

CK's already are on the hitlist ..

Not openly. They were largely ignored unless they stuck their noses into CS business. it was CK's that rescued Karls wife after all. As I pointed out, there's a difference between 'If you find one alone, and noone's around to see you, take them out" and "SHOOT THEM ALL IN THE FACE ON SIGHT"

2) Tolkeen is being run by evil people by this point.

So then you already know Tolkeen was not evil at the onset of the war, but leader's alignment's changed .. to match the Coalition's leadership's
alignments ..

No they were evil at the onset of the war. they were evil before tthe war started. There __Is__ Something to be said about a downward spiral of allignment based on the actions leading up to the war, but they were Evil.

if tolkeen is allied with demons and worse.. why team up with them ?

Fact of the matter is Tolkeen only turned to the Demon's due to *NONE* of the Coalition's BIG enemies wanting to jump into the war on the side

Does it matter why? They still did it. They turned to demonic armies to try and win. the CS didn't do that. Remember the Free Quebec double cross? When FQ attacked the army of demons that were about to crush some CS troops. CS Troops whom THEY WERE AT WAR WITH, rather than let Demons kill fellow humans?

Remember when the CS came over the hill and saw FQ getting HOSED as they held off that demonic army that was going to kill the CS? Remember how that totally ended the war with FQ and the CS apologized, including a personal public apology by Karl prosek who took 100% responsibility for the mistake of fighting FQ?

You can try and make excuse, but Tolkeen still teamed up with demonic armies, WILLINGLY. the CS never dropped that low. Hell Tolkeens forces killed Cyberknights fighting on THEIR SIDE, vs stop the demons from doing their nasty demonic stuff.

of Tolkeen's .. This is one of the ---> LARGEST <--- Hand wavium's in the entire Series ! ! !

While there most certainly WAS hand waving in the series. This wasn't it. I've explained it to you before too. Bunches of small evil kingdoms are not going to team up under a central command to try and take on the CS. They're... ---evil---- that means they look out for themselves and screw those around them. Why would Evil 1... 2.... 3.... 4... trust evil ... 4...3...2...1... to not kill them, themselves at any point in time. They're evil.

Decades long grudge match .. between the CS and the Federation .. yet they do not lift finger 1 .. to hurt the CS in the absolute BEST chance EVER !! I call shenanigans .. Not only would the Federation attack

Nope.. that was REVENGE.. by the Fed... (( whom are run by bad guys too)) Remember when the CS went to war with the Fed and Tolkeen didn't help them? Karma's a *****. "You didn't help us when we fought the CS and we lost... now you'll see how that feels."

Sides, it's better for the Fed to let the CS fight tolkeen and use up troops and arms and what not... and go after the bugs.

The Fed. (( untill recently)) were not unified.. one of the leaders has started to unify the forces down there since the end of the war... and that is not good for the CS.

.. so would have Lazlo under these circumstances

Lazlo is a peace loving community. They're not going to jump into a pre-emtive attack against an enemy that's currently non aggressive to them and team up with evil beings that have embraced demonic armies. lol Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerp!!

.. and no PJ, not all under 1 Leadership .. but on 3 totally different war front's each autonomus (sp?) under its own military leaderships . .

Which would be suicide for any of them. As proven by tolkeen. They would have no chance against the CS alone. Nor would Lazlo jump in and attack the CS.... and the Feds were laughing about Tolkeen getting what they 'deserved'.

And do not get me started about how the Siege retconned Dragon's an their "50 mile" this is my home come in here an die rational ..

To be honest, I thought the dragon's punked out pretty easy too. They were almost a non issue all together. Personally I think it was due to hardship of trying to write dragons in war as not just wading through everything in their path. (( or being targeted by every missile barrage from miles off and taken out.)) but I agree that the Dragon stuff was weird.

The way I choose to look at it. (( and this is me. I'm the first to say it)), is that the dragons knew a losing side when they saw it, knew there was no way Tolkeen would win (( this was UNANIMOUSLY HELD as KNOWN fact)) so, went "Well we can stay and fight and eventually lose or die.. or... we can say frak it and leave now and skip the hassel"

So they bailed. A bit pragmatic.. but 'intelligent'.

I mean, again, the CS ARE NAZI's

And again you're panting with only two bruches. Black and stark white. It's not really that simple.

Actually it is. Nazi Germany was not 100% completely Nazies .. beleive it or not there was another party there but they were the minority do you
think the world seen them as that tho ? Negative, the world seen Germany as "Nazi" plain an simple ..

Same thing applies to the Government that model's their sociaty after that party system ..

And both perceptions are wrong. Not every german was a Nazi.
Nor are the CS' Nazi's. Again, the Nazi's weren't trying to retake the planet from alien and demonic invaders.

Turns out .. the CS fears are 100% justified whn.. tolkeen does exactly what they'er acccused of.. and team up wit harmy's of demons to come
after humanity.

Couple things ..
1) - When did tolkeen go after Coalition civilian population center's ?

They weren't given the chance. Hince the pre-emtive strike by the CS. The CS, seeing the threat, chose to engage the threat, before that threat was strong enough to wipe them out.

2) - Tolkeen only went to the Demon's due to the script immunitiies of no other enemies wanting to jump in against the Coalition at the BEST
time they EVER .. could have .. yet for (and some of the stupidest) what ever reasons .. choose not to take the chance to put the CS BACK in
check .. (Script Immunities)

In your opinion. That "2)" there, is not in any book. And .... your opinion is one that I've already refuted on that topic more than once. Bunches of evil bad guys don't play well together.

and then suddenly there were demons pulling off people's heads an sucking out their brains while laughing about it?

Again .. your acting like the Coalition did not push Tolkeen to make that pact .. Your acting like Tolkeen had a bunch of Allies from which to
choose from .. and they choose the demons ..

Tolkeen could have chosen not to team up with inhuman demons. Quite simply, they could have left. Or even.. died... instead of not teaming up with demonic armies. You're acting like it's a given that anyone would. That's not a given. It was a vile thing that villified them to even their one time allies. Everyone was horrified at how far Tolkeen had fallen. They got what they deserved.

I've already pointed out that the Coalition was not and would not wait for a timely evacuation of the Tolkeen city

Tolkeen had years of build up where in they could have evacuated. They could have moved their city far before the war ever started. Once the war started, it was too late. That being said, they could have fought a holding game and evacuated when it started. They didn't. They stood there screaming "COME AT ME BRO!" and... teamed up with demon armies.

.. Hence the "Siege" in the first place .. Instead of a "Hey you guys have X amount of time to get outta dodge" emmissary .. (Yet again showing just how blood thirsty the
coalition really was at the onset of the war)

Tolkeen knew it was coming decades before it got there. Everyone told them it was coming. Everyone told them to get out of the way. If you don't they're going to come. They're going to kill all of you. Just move. Avoid the fight. Live, be an awesome group of people that are alive, if in a different place.

Tolkeen chose instead to dig in and fight. And they're dead. Once it got to the point that the CS were on the move, you can't cry that they didn't get time to leave, when they knew it was coming for years. heck when the CS rolled out their new army, they SAID what it was for. Tolkeen could have moved then, but instead waited around for years and chose to face off. Which was stupid.

"THE LEADERS OF TOLKEEN ARE EVIL AND TEAMED UP WITH ARMYS OF HUMAN EATING DEMONS"

Again I point out they had no choice.

Untrue. They had other choices.

1) Leave. Dont' fight a losing battle.
2) Fight but keep your honor and ideals.
3) look for other allies.

They didn't. That's on them. They WILLINGLY teamed up with Demons. Saying they had no choice is untrue. They CHOSE that path, amidst other choices.

Again I point out the two most glaring reasons ..
1) - The Coalition had no intention of allowing Tolkeen threw their territory to evac the city so they could rebuild some where else .. that is
common knowledge ..

You do realize that about 60 to 70% of the country is to the west of tolkeen and they could have just left that way. (( the way many of them went when running from the CS after thwe war was over?))

2) - The enemies of the Coalition did not accept any act's of Alliances .. (Script Immunities) Based on garbage reasoning..

Or A) were evvil and didn't want to, or B) Didn't want to team up with those that would team up with Demons. You act like it's crazy. lol They teamed up with demonic armies. ALL high ground they might have had. Gone with that act.

And that ignores that most of those are evil and aren't going to team up under any one leadership for anything as they'd never trust one another.

All possible allies would NEVER .. have had to team up under any 1 leadership .. as they were too spread out for that especially with out long
range instant com .. They would effectively all 3 (Tolkeen, Federation and Lazlo) team up to fight the Coalition on 3 completely different War
front's under each's own military leadership .. sticking to their own theater's of war ..

And all would have been destroied as the CS dwarfs them all. You're expecting them all to jump on the CS in a dog pile. And that's well and good, but it'd be like little yorkies all jumping on a grizzly bear at oncce. Sure.. Three yorkies can run in and nip at the bear really fast. They might get mouth fulls while the bear is figuring out where they are all darting around.. but after a few seconds, the bear is going to rip the head off one... then the next... then the third yorkie... then go about it's day.

The CS has MILLIONS of troops. All three of those groups together didn't have that many. No where near that many. (( and again. Lazlo wouldn't attack like that and the Fed was getting payback))

Naruni.. weapons dealers. War is good for business. why would they step in other then to sell more guns?

You need look no further then the Coalition's determination to push the Naruni off the continent .. for your answer PJ.

Nope. War is good for business. If the CS is at war with tolkeen they're not putting all their efforts against the Naruni.. and the naruni can sell sell sell during the war. Not every tolkeenite can throw a fireball. GUNS GUNS GUNS ARMOR ARMOR ARMOR!! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY!!!!

Naruni LOVE war. They'll sell to both sides! (( not that the CS would buy but in other instances.))

You're villifying the CS for taking out a threat who sees nothing wrong with making packs an using demons to kill humans.

Are you attempting to imply how ever that Tolkeen was doing such a thing before the Coalition pushed them into doing that PJ ?

I'm saying it straight up. You can claim your reasons for embracing evil, bla bla bla. You still did it. (( the you being tolkeen)) You could have chosen not to.

Or do you deny that in fact it was the Coalition's expansionistic ways that pushed Tolkeen into doing what your condemning ? (Now that is
ironic if you think about it)

There is always another choice other than embracing evil. Sometimes that choice is to run. Sometimes that choice is to die. But there is the choice. Tolkeen made theirs and lept both feet into teaming up with demonic evil.

Well some of yourdislike might be from looking at it as just a 100% white thing with one side being ethe evil NAZI NAZI NAZI bad guys and the
otherside((who team up witharmys of demons who.. eat humans)) as the 100% GOOD GOOD GOOD guys...

I find this particular passage very interesting for various reason (that I shall point out) ..

1) - You condemn a city for having dealings with Demons ( while the Coalition's leader's are JUST as evil as I might add, which in an of it self
is vastly entertaining to me)

The CS leadership don't eat people. They don't rape and torture people in general. Are some of the CS leaders Evil? yep. I never said they wern't. (( I've even pointed out that some are. More than oncce)) that being said... they never made pacts with Demonic Armies.

only Tolkeen did that.

due to Your side (The Coalition) pushing them into such dealings in the first place ..

They could have chosen not to. They made that choice. It's not a 'given' that 'anyone' would have done it. I wouldn't have. the CS didn't. They never had. it'd be real easy for the CS to team up with evils and be even better than they are, but they don't.

2) - You try to imply Tolkeen was ALL evil due to the Army's of Demons (did everyone have a favorite pet demon at their side ?)..

No. Not all evil. But they were a greater evil as a whole. yes. Again. The CS while having their own faults, never went that far.

yet try to make the coalition into this sympathetic military where the guy with the laser pistol doing the shooting cause he was told to ..is not as evil as the person who gave the order to do the shooting .. Sorry PJ that does not compute ..

The guy in the CS army was shooting the pistol against armies lead by evil and teamed up with Demons. Again, Tolkeen degraded themselves till they were the living embodyment of all the CS (( Usually wrongly)) Fears. But in this case that "Usually wrongly" .... wasn't. it was RIGHTLY feared.

3) - Just as you said Tolkeen had two choices .. Fight or move .. So too does your "Good" Coalition soilder have two choices .. shoot those unarmed
Tolkeen civilian's .. as per his orders .. or not and take a courtmartial or what ever their military justice system does..

Yep. And many didn't shoot the unarmed civilians. Many did. I said repeatedly BOTH SIDES were engaged in horrors during the war. With the CS though, while it's not an EXCUSE, the explanation is, any of those 'unarmed civilians' could have been a layline walker about to throw a fireball at them. or a dragon in disguise. Again.. not an 'excuse'.. but an explanation as to why many of them likely died.

You make a good arguement .. yet you do not hold your own side to the same thing's you hold other's too .. which begs the question is it because
it would show them in unfavorable light PJ ?

No no. Don't get me wrong. I know the CS does some evil stuff. Many of the CS leadership are evil and 'As bad as" any nazi. I know that due to that leadership the CS does some bad things.

I know that. I'm the first to say it.

In this case though, Tolkeen knew the CS. Knew what they were. Knew what they were capiable of. Were told for years if not decades that the storm was coming. To get out of the way. To move. To KEEP THEIR IDEALS AND THEIR HONOR. To avoid a fight that they COULD avoid if they chose. To be the 'bigger ... er... nation" and not choose to enter the fight that need not be fought.

They chose instead to spiral down into evil. To embrace evil leaders. And to embrace demonic evil armies. They became... what the CS (( USUALLY WRONGLY)) Fears... and because of that..... the CS had to take them out.

The CS was far far from 100% in the right. Far from it. They did some bad things in the war.

But they never dropped so far as tolkeen did. And overall.. the CS __IS__ Fighting to retake OUR planet from the demonic and dimensional and magical invaders.

[Giant2005]

Pepsi,
if I were your neighbor and knew you had a gun in your house that you could potentially aim at me, would I be justified in breaking into your house while you slept and shooting you to make sure you could not harm me?
What if I broke in, shot you but you survived and then retaliated by using the gun that incited the fear in the first place and shot me with it. Would the fact you used that gun to defend yourself from a home invasion justify the cause of the home invasion?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pepsi,
if I were your neighbor and knew you had a gun in your house that you could potentially aim at me, would I be justified in breaking into your house while you slept and shooting you to make sure you could not harm me?
What if I broke in, shot you but you survived and then retaliated by using the gun that incited the fear in the first place and shot me with it. Would the fact you used that gun to defend yourself from a home invasion justify the cause of the home invasion?

Am I an inhuman invader from another planet or dimension that is teaming up with armies of demons (( or in your example, even one demon?)). Have I taken that house from other humans who are dead due to a disaster of some sort? If so.. yeah... you do.

And that's not me being flip. Tolkeen wasn't innocent. They had BECOME evil and very willingly teamed up with Demonic armies to try and take out a nation of humans.

They weren't simply sitting out there having a kegger with a few grakel tooths. They militarized their kingdom and delt with the demonic armies. They became the threat that the CS often wrongly sees when they look at magic and dbees. By doing so, they justified the CS's actions. (( To the CS, and to many others. I mean even Erin Tarn was all "huh???!?!? THIS IS INSANE" before the war started.

(( Please don't mistake me. I know th CS has it's flaws. They were not innocent either.))

[Giant2005]

Pepsi,
if I were your neighbor and knew you had a gun in your house that you could potentially aim at me, would I be justified in breaking into your house while you slept and shooting you to make sure you could not harm me?
What if I broke in, shot you but you survived and then retaliated by using the gun that incited the fear in the first place and shot me with it. Would the fact you used that gun to defend yourself from a home invasion justify the cause of the home invasion?

Am I an inhuman invader from another planet or dimension that is teaming up with armies of demons (( or in your example, even one demon?)). Have I taken that house from other humans who are dead due to a disaster of some sort? If so.. yeah... you do.

And that's not me being flip. Tolkeen wasn't innocent. They had BECOME evil and very willingly teamed up with Demonic armies to try and take out a nation of humans.

They weren't simply sitting out there having a kegger with a few grakel tooths. They militarized their kingdom and delt with the demonic armies. They became the threat that the CS often wrongly sees when they look at magic and dbees. By doing so, they justified the CS's actions. (( To the CS, and to many others. I mean even Erin Tarn was all "huh???!?!? THIS IS INSANE" before the war started.

(( Please don't mistake me. I know th CS has it's flaws. They were not innocent either.))

But Tolkeen weren't using demons (or in my analogy, their gun was sitting safely in it's cabinet), that particular weapon was only brought out after the home invasion had begun.

Am I an inhuman invader from another planet or dimension that is teaming up with armies of demons (( or in your example, even one demon?)). Have I taken that house from other humans who are dead due to a disaster of some sort? If so.. yeah... you do.

I will update the analogy for you to cater for this input:

Assuming you are of non Native-American decent, if I were your Native-American neighbor and knew you had a gun in your house that you could potentially aim at me, would I be justified in breaking into your house while you slept and shooting you to make sure you could not harm me?
What if I broke in, shot you but you survived and then retaliated by using the gun that incited the fear in the first place and shot me with it. Would the fact you used that gun to defend yourself from a home invasion justify the cause of the home invasion?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pepsi,
if I were your neighbor and knew you had a gun in your house that you could potentially aim at me, would I be justified in breaking into your house while you slept and shooting you to make sure you could not harm me?
What if I broke in, shot you but you survived and then retaliated by using the gun that incited the fear in the first place and shot me with it. Would the fact you used that gun to defend yourself from a home invasion justify the cause of the home invasion?

Am I an inhuman invader from another planet or dimension that is teaming up with armies of demons (( or in your example, even one demon?)). Have I taken that house from other humans who are dead due to a disaster of some sort? If so.. yeah... you do.

And that's not me being flip. Tolkeen wasn't innocent. They had BECOME evil and very willingly teamed up with Demonic armies to try and take out a nation of humans.

They weren't simply sitting out there having a kegger with a few grakel tooths. They militarized their kingdom and delt with the demonic armies. They became the threat that the CS often wrongly sees when they look at magic and dbees. By doing so, they justified the CS's actions. (( To the CS, and to many others. I mean even Erin Tarn was all "huh???!?!? THIS IS INSANE" before the war started.

(( Please don't mistake me. I know th CS has it's flaws. They were not innocent either.))

But Tolkeen weren't using demons (or in my analogy, their gun was sitting safely in it's cabinet), that particular weapon was only brought out after the home invasion had begun.

The difference being, a gun is a tool that can be used for good or evil. You can use it to hunt for food for example. Or to defend your family. It's not inherantly evil in and of itself. Nor will it, once bought capable of going out and not only conducting evil but incite others to do so, and be evil by it's nature, kill and rape and torture by itself.

Am I an inhuman invader from another planet or dimension that is teaming up with armies of demons (( or in your example, even one demon?)). Have I taken that house from other humans who are dead due to a disaster of some sort? If so.. yeah... you do.

I will update the analogy for you to cater for this input:

Assuming you are of non Native-American decent, if I were your Native-American neighbor and knew you had a gun in your house that you could potentially aim at me, would I be justified in breaking into your house while you slept and shooting you to make sure you could not harm me?
What if I broke in, shot you but you survived and then retaliated by using the gun that incited the fear in the first place and shot me with it. Would the fact you used that gun to defend yourself from a home invasion justify the cause of the home invasion?

In your example, it's more gray. As pointed out above, the gun in and of itself isn't evil.

The demon army is.

And as pointed out in other posts, the leadership had become evil.

To make your Analogy fit.

I'd be a white guy and a murder or rapist (Evil) , and if you were a NA, and knew I had an evil sword, that could fly around and kill on it's own, in my house, that might fly over and kill your kids, even if I wasn't the one pointing it where to go, would you be justified in breaking into my house, when I knew you'd eventually come break in, because you'd told the world you had planned on it.. and shown the world the new armor and weapons you planned on using to do it, and shot me.

Then yes. You would be justified.



Again, people are forgetting, that in their defiance and 'fear' that tolkeen had spiraled down to become that which was feared by the CS and flat out defined the reasoning behind the invasion.

What alot of people are describing, is if the CS attacked Lazlo. Not Tolkeen. While Tolkeen Started out alot like Lazlo, they didn't end up that way. If anything it could be argued that it's an allogory of the US and Terrorism. Tolkeen became something it wasn't out of fear of being attacked by people for being something they wern't... that they became.. to try and defend against that wich they were accused of being. (( a little wordy but hopefully able to be followed))

[Giant2005]

To make your Analogy fit.

I'd be a white guy and a murder or rapist (Evil) , and if you were a NA, and knew I had an evil sword, that could fly around and kill on it's own, in my house, that might fly over and kill your kids, even if I wasn't the one pointing it where to go, would you be justified in breaking into my house, when I knew you'd eventually come break in, because you'd told the world you had planned on it.. and shown the world the new armor and weapons you planned on using to do it, and shot me.

Then yes. You would be justified.

Firstly, it isn't particularly fair to call the white guy (Tolkeen) a murderer or rapist - before the home invasion (war) he (The king) was Scrupulous - Scrupulous people don't do anything of the sorts.
I do like the sword thing though, I think it fits the analogy better even if it does take a little bit of realism out. Keep in mind though that before the home invasion, that sword was locked up safely in it's cabinet.
One last thing the analogy needs: the home invasion wasn't in an effort to remove the sword or even the sword bearer, the home invasion was a means of killing the sword bearer, his wife and his children.

With these changes: this is how the analogy ends up:

Assuming you are of non Native-American decent, if I were your Native-American neighbor and knew you had a magic sword in your house that when removed from it's safety cabinet is capable of flying over to my house and killing, would I be justified in breaking into your house while you slept and shooting you to make sure you could not harm me and then killing your wife and children to make sure none of them ever chose to use the sword?
What if I broke in, shot you but you survived and then retaliated by using the sword that incited the fear in the first place and attacked me with it. Would the fact you used that sword to defend yourself from a home invasion justify the cause of the home invasion?

[Nightmask]

To make your Analogy fit.

I'd be a white guy and a murder or rapist (Evil) , and if you were a NA, and knew I had an evil sword, that could fly around and kill on it's own, in my house, that might fly over and kill your kids, even if I wasn't the one pointing it where to go, would you be justified in breaking into my house, when I knew you'd eventually come break in, because you'd told the world you had planned on it.. and shown the world the new armor and weapons you planned on using to do it, and shot me.

Then yes. You would be justified.

Firstly, it isn't particularly fair to call the white guy (Tolkeen) a murderer or rapist - before the home invasion (war) he (The king) was Scrupulous - Scrupulous people don't do anything of the sorts.
I do like the sword thing though, I think it fits the analogy better even if it does take a little bit of realism out. Keep in mind though that before the home invasion, that sword was locked up safely in it's cabinet.
One last thing the analogy needs: the home invasion wasn't in an effort to remove the sword or even the sword bearer, the home invasion was a means of killing the sword bearer, his wife and his children.

With these changes: this is how the analogy ends up:

Assuming you are of non Native-American decent, if I were your Native-American neighbor and knew you had a magic sword in your house that when removed from it's safety cabinet is capable of flying over to my house and killing, would I be justified in breaking into your house while you slept and shooting you to make sure you could not harm me and then killing your wife and children to make sure none of them ever chose to use the sword?
What if I broke in, shot you but you survived and then retaliated by using the sword that incited the fear in the first place and attacked me with it. Would the fact you used that sword to defend yourself from a home invasion justify the cause of the home invasion?

Left off the part of taking their house and all their goods as your 'reward' for preemptively dealing with the completely peaceful, Principled home-owners who only ended up Diabolically evil because you attacked them whlie they were peacefully asleep. But not like any cogent, rational argument will work with someone who doesn't operate from rational foundations and is basing all their responses to spin-doctor the actual actions and motivations to be something completely contrary to what they actually were. It's already been pointed out repeatedly before that the CS attacked Tolkeen without provocation and that even what few evil people it had as members weren't doing anything at all to the CS prior to that and those that ended up evil weren't evil before and only ended up that way because they were brutally attacked. The response has always been the bit of irrational 'well because they became evil because of us it was okay for us to attack them' circular logic that is basically a fantasy.

Going by the illogic presented, everyone has a right to preemptively invade their neighbor's home and kill everyone inside and expand to take over that home as well because every home has something in it that your neighbor could potentially use to harm you. The kitchen alone being filled with sharp objects. Of course there was nothing of the 'we have to preemptively attack to protect ourselves' basis to the war anyway, it was purely a war of conquest and genocide with the masses told that fluff piece in order to get them to be in support of the war. The CS knew Tolkeen wasn't going to bother it, if they were truly looking to preemptively defend themselves they would have gone after the Federation of Magic as it explicitly has destroying the CS as its goal and everyone knows that. Anyone trying to argue it was a 'just war' is simply not grounded in reality, because the CS would have gone after the Federation if it were truly out to defend itself from an aggressive nation of dangerous mages and d-bees.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think it's pretty clear that initially, the CS were the bad guys in the Tolkeen war, and by the end of it, both sides were the bad guys.

[Akashic Soldier]

Once upon a time fear cultivated an army and drove it forward beyond the measure of its sacrifices to stand against the house of wizards.

The house if wizards saw their sky filled with fire and though they stood at the threshold of a thousand door ways their pride closed those doors.

The army of fear marched and in their pride The house of Wizards called into the darkness and the fear of the legions took form and walked the earth.

But the House of Wizards had underestimated the zeal of the legion and their conjuring merely bolstered the resolve of the army and sured their aim. For though driven by fear the legion would never have marched were it conquered by it.

And so though a house of wizards they were but house and though a city of doors they remained locked and in this folley, conquered by pride, broken by their owns hands and vice the house burned and their flags vanished beneath the mud with the corpses of all those sacrificed to pay the price for a fear cultivated within the human spirit for nearly three hundred years...

This is legacy of Tolkeen, listen and heed the warning, no house may stand alone. No pride is bright enough to eclipse fear... and no magic strong enough to conquer sacrifice.

[Kagashi]

I stopped playing RIFTS right before Siege on Tolkeen. I was wondering if anyone can give me a breakdown of the major happenings in the war. Also, are the six or seven books worth tracking down? What are the best of the series? Do they have good source material, adventures, etc? Did anyone play Siege on Tolkeen from beginning to end? How did it go?

If you want to blow up the boards, talk about the Siege of Tolkeen.

Anyway, to answer your questions:

After years of imbedded culture of Tolkeenites and Coalition citizens conducting raids and border wars with one another (as described in Rifts Main Book), they finally came to major blows with one another. Many fans on the site seem to think that the CS were the "bad guys", but it was quite obvious that both sides were equally looking for a fight, despite Tolkeen being on the defensive the majority of the time. End result was a 4 year war starting in 105 PA and ending in 109 PA with a Coalition victory. The CS now occupies the area formerly commanded by Tolkeen. I believe Chi-Town anexed the area. This is no surprise since we knew this was the CS plan from the beginning ever since the Campaign of Unity speech described in Coalition War Campaign.

Many fans have reservations about some major items:

1a) They seem to think that the plans and events described in Xiticix Invasion is contradicted by the end result of the SoT. Reality is, there is no verbiage in WB23 that states the Xiticix war ever ended, only that it started. It tell about how in 105 PA (or was it 103 PA? Cant remember.) how long people *thought* it would go and describes the various plans, but the is no canon reference as to how long it actually lasted or even what actual events transpired. In Aftermath, its obvious that there are still campaigns going on to combat the Xiticix (like psi-stalker tribes), but the full scale plans described in WB23 are still only plans and the bugs are still indeed firmly in place and still a major threat to humanity in 109 PA.

1b) Others have issues with the CS being able to sneak an entire army through the hivelands, be thought to be dead, survive the ordeal, then come in at the last minute and drive down from the North to help destroy Tolkeen in the final hours as it seems improbable.

2a) Some fans have a problem with the Coalition winning a prolonged engagement against a mostly magic nation and do not think they should have had the resources to win, especially when engaged in a Civil War in Free Quebec going on at the same time.

2b) Others dont have an issue with the CS victory, but share the same issues about the CS resource problem. When running the numbers, it is impossible for the CS to have the number of troops, skelebots, SAMAS, and resources described in the series when compared to the numbers known in RMB, SB1 (unrevised) and CWC.

As for books, I found the series cool to follow as they came out. Like waiting to see what happened for the next "episode". But if you already have Rifts Ultimate Edition, many of the changes and such in that series as been rolled into RUE. Book 1 is cool because it has Rifts Specific demons reprinted from older books. At the time, they needed the update, but personally, Id like to see them updated again. The demons in the Hades and Dyval books saw a significant facelift from previous books. The Rifts specific demons are falling behind again. Book 2 is cool because it has Daemonix, a new subdemon to keep Gargoyles and Brodkil company. Books 3, 5, and 6 are okay. Mostly story. Book 4 is all about Cyber Knights. Again, if you have RUE, the Cyber Knights have been updated and this book does not offer much more, but it does go into further detail about CK culture and specific armor and NPCs and such. So, I suggest 1, 2, and perhaps 4 if you are picking and choosing if you dont just get the whole thing.

Aftermath was good because it brought the entire (Well most of) the world updated to 109 PA when all we had was the Rifts Main Book. Aftermath is still good, but with RUE out, the world has been updated (again, to 109 PA). Between the two, you have a fairly good idea of setting for the updated timeline. I think only Triax 2 is written for 110 PA, so its the only book that takes place after Aftermath.

Ive never actually played out the Siege in person, but we do reference the war as if it happened and with its canon results. We utilize a lot of the technowizardry items described in there on a regular basis and I have used Daemonix as summoned monsters for Shifters.

[Myrrhibis]

I think it's pretty clear that initially, the CS were the bad guys in the Tolkeen war, and by the end of it, both sides were the bad guys.

Good summation, and how me & my group have viewed it (and yeah, the hand-waving gets us seeing a bit red too).

The ends didn't justify the means, for Tolkeen to (try to) save themselves. Ironically, if they hadn't used the demons & been decimated, I think there would have been more sympathy, and possibly would have goaded the other continental powers (FoM, Lazlo) into taking advantage of the CS & hitting on 2 fronts. FoM for advantage, Lazlo (w/ officially the CKs, quite possibly) on principal.

[Myrrhibis]

Damn, it's like when all of the moderates that were on Sound Off when Therumancer was posting and they were all trying to argue their collective veiw point with them, and failing to budge him even an inch in their direction.

Wow - that name brings back some memories.

[Pepsi Jedi]

To make your Analogy fit.

I'd be a white guy and a murder or rapist (Evil) , and if you were a NA, and knew I had an evil sword, that could fly around and kill on it's own, in my house, that might fly over and kill your kids, even if I wasn't the one pointing it where to go, would you be justified in breaking into my house, when I knew you'd eventually come break in, because you'd told the world you had planned on it.. and shown the world the new armor and weapons you planned on using to do it, and shot me.

Then yes. You would be justified.

Firstly, it isn't particularly fair to call the white guy (Tolkeen) a murderer or rapist - before the home invasion (war) he (The king) was Scrupulous - Scrupulous people don't do anything of the sorts.
I do like the sword thing though, I think it fits the analogy better even if it does take a little bit of realism out. Keep in mind though that before the home invasion, that sword was locked up safely in it's cabinet.
One last thing the analogy needs: the home invasion wasn't in an effort to remove the sword or even the sword bearer, the home invasion was a means of killing the sword bearer, his wife and his children.

With these changes: this is how the analogy ends up:

Assuming you are of non Native-American decent, if I were your Native-American neighbor and knew you had a magic sword in your house that when removed from it's safety cabinet is capable of flying over to my house and killing, would I be justified in breaking into your house while you slept and shooting you to make sure you could not harm me and then killing your wife and children to make sure none of them ever chose to use the sword?
What if I broke in, shot you but you survived and then retaliated by using the sword that incited the fear in the first place and attacked me with it. Would the fact you used that sword to defend yourself from a home invasion justify the cause of the home invasion?

Well the thing is, most (( I'm not going to say all as I don't have the book open in front of me)) of Tolkeens generals WERE evil. And not... like a little Evil they were really bad guys. Saying the king was Scrupulous is fine but if he was he was breaking his alignment by giving the power of his kingdom's military to 5 or 6 evil magical generals. So.. he wasn't REALLY Scrupulous..... a Scrupulous man wouldn't make deals with demons. EVER. You can go "oh well his alignment changed" But did it? If you're going to make deals with demons.. you're an evil guy. You don't make a radical change like that just to win. A Scrupulous man would have avoided the fight. In reality he was evil from the start. "Acting" like a Scrupulous.. because evil Alignments will often lie. As pointed out in other threads when pertaining to Alignment. Palladium's alignment system isn't subjective. It's defined and locked in. There's bullet points. Not any leway.

So yeah... you were evil (( our version of evil is murderers and rapists)) Before hand. You had evil generals and had made pacts with unholy demonic armies to win.

You say the sword was locked up safely. But I maintain once that magical sword was in play (( the demons)) There was no lock up safely. Once they were brought in they were free to murder and kill and do things as they see fit. Some of the more noble of Tolkeens defenders. The ones -honestly- there to help 'defend the innocent from the mean ol CS- were slaughtered by the demons when they didn't agree to the Demons doing... demonic stuff to the cs troops. Point of Fact. Many Cyberknights that were there fighting for tolkeen were slaughtered by tolkeens' own demonic forces when they stood up to them. If your 'sword' (( the demons)) Are killing your own menwho tell them to stop being so evil. You can't really say it's safe and able to be controlled.


Overall I get what you're aiming at. I really do. The logic of your argument is there.

The thing is that Tolkeen, in preparation for defending itself against a foe it perceived as Evil (( the CS)) Had spiraled down down down and had become even worse than that which they feared. And in doing so....... because they DID spiral down like that.... ended up, fully justified the fear... that was there, perhaps unjustified, before.

Tolkeen wasn't innocent because it'd embraced the evil (( not neutral tools)) To defend itself against attack.

Tolkeen didn't 'Start off evil' in the world.. but they ended up that way and were evil, with evil generals and evil power, dealing with evil demons ect, when the CS came to take them out for being evil and dealing with demons and magic and being a threat.

[Pepsi Jedi]

To make your Analogy fit.

I'd be a white guy and a murder or rapist (Evil) , and if you were a NA, and knew I had an evil sword, that could fly around and kill on it's own, in my house, that might fly over and kill your kids, even if I wasn't the one pointing it where to go, would you be justified in breaking into my house, when I knew you'd eventually come break in, because you'd told the world you had planned on it.. and shown the world the new armor and weapons you planned on using to do it, and shot me.

Then yes. You would be justified.

Firstly, it isn't particularly fair to call the white guy (Tolkeen) a murderer or rapist - before the home invasion (war) he (The king) was Scrupulous - Scrupulous people don't do anything of the sorts.
I do like the sword thing though, I think it fits the analogy better even if it does take a little bit of realism out. Keep in mind though that before the home invasion, that sword was locked up safely in it's cabinet.
One last thing the analogy needs: the home invasion wasn't in an effort to remove the sword or even the sword bearer, the home invasion was a means of killing the sword bearer, his wife and his children.

With these changes: this is how the analogy ends up:

Assuming you are of non Native-American decent, if I were your Native-American neighbor and knew you had a magic sword in your house that when removed from it's safety cabinet is capable of flying over to my house and killing, would I be justified in breaking into your house while you slept and shooting you to make sure you could not harm me and then killing your wife and children to make sure none of them ever chose to use the sword?
What if I broke in, shot you but you survived and then retaliated by using the sword that incited the fear in the first place and attacked me with it. Would the fact you used that sword to defend yourself from a home invasion justify the cause of the home invasion?

Left off the part of taking their house and all their goods as your 'reward' for preemptively dealing with the completely peaceful, Principled home-owners who only ended up Diabolically evil because you attacked them whlie they were peacefully asleep.

1) That house and all their goods was built on our land against our wishes when you invaded when we were on the ropes from natural disaster.
2) You weren't completely peaceful before we attacked. Tolkeen had militarized and amassed it's might before the CS rolled in. The CS didn't appear over the hill and suddenly all of Tolkeens armies appeared over night out of no where. They had been building up for years as all their allies told them to get out of the way.
3) You can't blame others for you becoming evil. Only yourself. You always have a choice. The CS didn't "MAKE" tolkeen become evil. Tolkeen decided to become evil to win at all costs. They had many options other than that. They only CHOSE evil over those other choices.

But not like any cogent, rational argument will work with someone who doesn't operate from rational foundations and is basing all their responses to spin-doctor the actual actions and motivations to be something completely contrary to what they actually were.

And that's a personal attack. Please stop.

It's already been pointed out repeatedly before that the CS attacked Tolkeen without provocation

Is being a city state of invaders from other diminsions and planes of existance that deal with demonic forces, not provocation?

and that even what few evil people it had as members weren't doing anything at all to the CS prior to that and those that ended up evil weren't evil before and only ended up that way because they were brutally attacked. The response has always been the bit of irrational 'well because they became evil because of us it was okay for us to attack them' circular logic that is basically a fantasy.

No. They were a threat before hand.

They only became a bigger threat when yes, they CHOSE to become evil in responce to the threat leveled at them. They had other choices. You and some others act like there was no other choice. There was.

Is it circular? In a way yes. The CS Aggression towards magic and Dbees is often based on FALSE perceptions. VERY often it is.

In tolkeens case.. they actually hit the target dead on. You can cry about the how's and whys but the fact was that tolkeen had become a city state ruled by evil, it's generals were evil and they teamed up with demons. Which is exactly what the CS feared and why they attacked.

Going by the illogic presented, everyone has a right to preemptively invade their neighbor's home and kill everyone inside and expand to take over that home as well because every home has something in it that your neighbor could potentially use to harm you.

You mean like huge armies of Demons? Like that? Riiiight. Same thing. And again you're screaming from your soapbox while totally ignoring that tolkeen had become evil,ruled by evil, commanded by evil and dealing with armies of Demons.

It wasn't just a tool that "Could be" used for good or evil. Armies of Demons are evil.. period. You're making false arguments and compairisons. Not everyone has armies of demons that would provoke that pre-emtive attack.

Sorry nightmask but if you're packin' evil armies of demons. You can't play the "I was just minding my business, wasn't gonna hurt anyone." card.

The kitchen alone being filled with sharp objects.

Do those sharp objects go out and rape, kill and eat people all on their own? If you try and stop them from raping and killing and eating people will they kill you?

Of course there was nothing of the 'we have to preemptively attack to protect ourselves' basis to the war anyway, it was purely a war of conquest and genocide with the masses told that fluff piece in order to get them to be in support of the war.

Yet, the reasons for going to war, while propaganda... turned out to be 100% true. Sure... it was almost accidentally true, but it was still true.

The CS knew Tolkeen wasn't going to bother it,

Really? Then why amass armies with evil magical generals at the head and armys of demons. It's kinda hard to play the innocent peace maker when you do these things.

if they were truly looking to preemptively defend themselves they would have gone after the Federation of Magic as it explicitly has destroying the CS as its goal and everyone knows that.

RIGHT!!

Oh wait.....

Wait a minute......

They already did... Ohhhhh that's right! They went after and kicked the Fed's butts already and sent them packing.

Anyone trying to argue it was a 'just war' is simply not grounded in reality, because the CS would have gone after the Federation if it were truly out to defend itself from an aggressive nation of dangerous mages and d-bees.

Right... like they already did. Good point. They went after the Fed first... and tolkeen second.

[Shark_Force]

tolkeen actually has a lot of humans in it, many of them as native to rifts earth as anyone in the CS. they're essentially immigrants, not invaders. the CS has no special right to claim that patch of ground over anyone else, and certainly has less right than those who have built it up from nothing.

there was no invasion. merely immigration. the CS is not defending it's people, it's just killing others who live nearby because they don't like them.

and it is not stupid to decide to defend yourself, your family, your friends, or your possessions, although the precise way that tolkeen decided to do so was certainly stupid.

ultimately, though, here's the way i look at the SoT series: if one thing about the book is stupid, you ignore the one stupid thing, tweak the rest a bit so that you can pretend like the one stupid thing never existed, and carry on. if the whole book except for one thing is stupid, then you grumble about having bought a stupid book, consider whether or not you can fit the one good thing into your game without bringing too much stupid in, and then pretend like the rest of the book doesn't exist.

in the case of SoT, i happen to feel that far too much of the series is just badly done. there are a few interesting things (some cool new magic stuff, some TW equipment, information about tolkeen before the war, etc) which can easily be used without acknowledging the rest of the series ever happened at all. pretty much the only portion of that which isn't found in other books is the information about tolkeen itself, iirc (i'm almost certain the magic/TW stuff is all found in the book of magic, for example).

so, basically, if the information about tolkeen is worth it to you, figure out where it is and consider buying that. otherwise, my recommendation is to just make up your own stuff that happened in the siege on tolkeen (including deciding if you want the same outcome; some feel the CS should have won in a couple of months, some feel tolkeen should have won, some feel the war should still be going with no sign of either side winning, etc), because you'll probably be happier than you would be if you paid for the full series and got a lot of bad product to go with your tiny helping of good product.

[Pepsi Jedi]

tolkeen actually has a lot of humans in it, many of them as native to rifts earth as anyone in the CS. they're essentially immigrants, not invaders. the CS has no special right to claim that patch of ground over anyone else, and certainly has less right than those who have built it up from nothing.

And alot of Dbees and supernatural creatures too. Nice try but no. You can't ignore all the Dbees and supernatural creatures of 100 types to try and claim they're just humans looking for a home.

there was no invasion. merely immigration. the CS is not defending it's people, it's just killing others who live nearby because they don't like them.

No Dbees or Supernatural beings in Tolkeen? Is this another one of the "In my game" things? Because the books disagree with you.

And again

Armies... of.... Demons.

and it is not stupid to decide to defend yourself, your family, your friends, or your possessions, although the precise way that tolkeen decided to do so was certainly stupid.

That's exactly it. It's not "Stupid" to defend yourself and your family. It WAS stupid the way they went around it. And I'm sorry but it's stupid to lose thousands and thousands and thousands of people in a fight you've got no chance of winning from the start. Most especially whenn you've got that much magic and can just move. Despite what action movies tell us. Often the best option, if you have it, is to avoid a fight if you can. Most especially when the other side has millions of troops, and you don't.

ultimately, though, here's the way i look at the SoT series: if one thing about the book is stupid, you ignore the one stupid thing, tweak the rest a bit so that you can pretend like the one stupid thing never existed, and carry on. if the whole book except for one thing is stupid, then you grumble about having bought a stupid book, consider whether or not you can fit the one good thing into your game without bringing too much stupid in, and then pretend like the rest of the book doesn't exist.

I totally 100% Agree with ya here Sharkforce. 100%. TOTALLY agree on that. That's --exactly-- how I look at it too.

in the case of SoT, i happen to feel that far too much of the series is just badly done.

I agree that there are many things I feel arre badly done. But for me it's not 'far too much" but I totally agree there's things I think are badly done.

there are a few interesting things (some cool new magic stuff, some TW equipment, information about tolkeen before the war, etc) which can easily be used without acknowledging the rest of the series ever happened at all. pretty much the only portion of that which isn't found in other books is the information about tolkeen itself, iirc (i'm almost certain the magic/TW stuff is all found in the book of magic, for example).

so, basically, if the information about tolkeen is worth it to you, figure out where it is and consider buying that. otherwise, my recommendation is to just make up your own stuff that happened in the siege on tolkeen (including deciding if you want the same outcome; some feel the CS should have won in a couple of months, some feel tolkeen should have won, some feel the war should still be going with no sign of either side winning, etc), because you'll probably be happier than you would be if you paid for the full series and got a lot of bad product to go with your tiny helping of good product.

I'd almost agree. Except I say you should get it. Use the stuff that you like. Read it and see how the 'War was presented in Canon" and decide if you want to diverge.

Shark is right though that you should mine it for what's good for you and your gourp and personalize it. But you do need to be able to know what all happened, to make that choice.

[DhAkael]

Still whipping the decomposing equine I see...
it's DONE.
Some people think it was the next best thing since the last best thing; those arguing FOR the CS victory are wrong in so many way I've lost count, but will continue to defend the CS view-point.
Me. I'm done.
So is the horse.
Let the blasted entire meta-plot mistake just die for good... please?
there are so many other interesting and important threads and subjects for rifts. This one just seems to polarize the entire community.
"Can't we all just get along?" preferably with the S.o.T. done as a foregone (badly executed) conclusion?

[Lenwen]

Pepsi ..

Yes or no the Coalition are immigrants of the North American Continent next to the Native American's who own the western united states ... And there for it is right by your logic for the Native's to come declare war and boot the Coalition off of north america .

Yes or no ?

[Lenwen]

Pepsi ..

Yes or no the Coalition are immigrants of the North American Continent next to the Native American's who own the western united states ... And there for it is right by your logic for the Native's to come declare war and boot the Coalition off of north america .

Yes or no ?

No, they are born on the continent just like the native Americans.

You do not know that. That is speculation .. because it does not state where they are from .. but the native american's have been stated as being there since before and after the comming of the rifts for centuries ..

[Pepsi Jedi]

Ok Pepsi Jedi, I am curious how you(or anybody else who would like to answer) would handle the situation differently. The leaders of tolkeen decide to put YOU in charge of tolkeen. They will follow whatever your advise is to the tee. Now, based on your posts, you are more than willing to bow down to the CS threats and JUST MOVE as you say it. I want to hear how you would do this. Not some vague answer with hand waving, but a detailed plan on how to move the very large number of inhabitants from point A to point B (Don't forget all the D-Bee and tolkeen supporting towns near tolkeen). Where would you go, how would you feed and transport the people. What about defenses against the monsters of the wilderness. While the young and healthy might be ok, what about the weak like the elderly, children, babies, or d-bees with trouble moving? How would you oregon trail tolkeen?

Ah! Yes. I like it.

Ok. We start by looking at the situation. The military buildup in tolkeen took at least a decade. Probably more like 20 years but We'll say 10 for the sake of arguement. The CS rolled out their new war machine years before they actually attacked the city. So they had years before the attack befell it.

If tolkeen were idiots and hadn't been building up (( their defenses say other wise)) they at least had the time between the CS new army and the attack.

First, I'd recommend mass relocation. I dedicate a large part of the cities resources to this effect. You turn the city over onto disaster aid type processing. Everyone packs up. Everyone helps.

You've got a large number of mages. You still keep up a roving defense force to keep from being attacked during the move. Then, you get ready to move.

First you send out scouts. Clearly west, as, pointed out. East, you'd have to cross the CS territory and that just wouldn't be fun.
The Prime location to my knowledge would be, between the Colorado baronies and the lands to the south west. At least to start. Above even that might be California. But that would mean jumping the rockies, and that's going to be tough.

So you find your location and you claim it. Send the dragons first. Why? 1) They can fly on their own and prety fast. 2) What's going to attack a flight of dragons. 3) they can shape shift naturally, 4) They have supernatural strength. and 5) they can carry some equipment with them.

Dragons land on the area you're claiming. They set up a base of operations there. None of the groups out west have the ability to attack a group of dragons and most wouldn't.

Once the dragons have a base set up, you can ferry out more troops to hold it. Make sure you have a nice defence dug in. Then, you start moving the population in pilgrimages. One every 4 months. Now.. pilgrimages aren't easy in Rifts earth. Far from it. But you have some factors on your side. 1) you've established a base of operations out there, and 2) It's dug in and manned by some of your mage/human military.

With that established, the dragons can be put to use again, guarding the pilgrimages as they make their travels. Also, you use some of thhe money you WOULD HAVE put into hiring mercenaries to fight in the war, into hiring mercenaries to guarding the pilgrimages. The books indicate more than once that every mercenary that wanted work could find GOOD PAYING work in tolkeen, all the way down to normal highway bandits getting good merc pay. Anyone that could pull a trigger was hired on.

So use that money to hire on some of the better merc companies to help guard your pilgrims from attack along the way. Coupled with the dragons and the innate nature of magic users amidsts the population of Tolkeen would help get them out there. Travel can be done both with the vehicles they have on hand, and via magic. Many spells aid in movement. The sick and the old can ride in vehicles or be moved via magical means. Heck the dragons can even get gondolas' to carry below them or on their backs as they fly. Also, instead of investing millions and millions on building the iron golems to fight the CS, they can spend some of that money on building transport vehicles.

This would take a while. A year or two to get all your civilian population out there.

Now.. they're out there and while they have militarized base to live in, largely with tent cities or the like, you need a place for them to stay. It's now you turn backk to your magic. Your warlocks and such can help clear land. Your control over elementals can flatten land or the like. You can mine stone with them too. Supernaturals in your community can do the 'heavy lifting' and you use your own civilian population to help with the construction of your new city. You build it with the express purpose of defence, incase it's needed at a later date.

Some of your population that is sitting arouund with their thumbs up their butts and nothing to do, can plant and harvest food to feed the workers as they work.

When your population is largely movved you sell off what's left of tolkeen that "Can't be taken with you. Now.. most people won't want to live in a city that's likely to be the next big target of the CS (( because... they'vve told the world it will be)) but some people will want to live there.

You take what you can get and you totally bug out. It hurts. Financially it'll hurt because for a few years all the city will be focused on the move... then the rebuilding on the other side. During the war they wern't farming, so they'd laid in food for a real seige. That same food that they laid in for the war could have been laid in to feed the population during transit and rebuilding.

So now.. You've moved west, found your own bit of land that was unclaimed, well out side the reach of the Cs and are rebuilding your city with an eye towards defense. The CS isn't going to reach you for decades if not 100s of years in expansion.

Now.. if you wanted REAL protection you could house your city in that 'Tent city' with in the base for a year or two, while you send another expendatory force over the rockies to find something out on the west coast. The only thing we really "know' about that area is that the New Navy trades with a few human settlements out there, and there's some Native American presence. But the NA's aren't the 'I'm going to blow you up with my power armor' kind. They're the "We don't even use tools or plant crops' kind. And they're very few and far between.

If you find a better place out west of the mountains in Cali or the Pacific north west (( where I'd go)) you could wait till summer, and move your temp camp over the mountains much like you moved them from the mid west to the west, just before the mountains.

1) Send out your expendatory force. (( Dragons are good for this))
2) Find a place to settle.
3) Land and claim. Set up dependable base
4) Send out more troops to secure it and build up the base.
5) Start pilgrimages, and protect them in transit with your own power and those hired on as needed.
6) Once there use your own people to rebuild your city and infrastructure.

Many of these steps are made easier by magic. Weather wouldn't be a huge problem as some of the mages can affect the weather. Attack long the way would face retaliation of both mages and dragons and mercenaries and likely Cyberknights. If Tolkeen was running to avoid the fight, the Cyberknights would be able to defend better. And less likely to cause big problems, as in this case, Tolkeen isn't being an aggressor.

Easy? No. It's hard and there's lots of smaller details. But it's alot easier than taking on a technological superpower with millions of troops and even millions more skelebots to throw at your relatively small number of people in your citystate.

It also gets around the entire "Brokered deals with demonic armies. You get to keep your ideals. Your honor, and if you are attacked along the way, your honestly defending yourselves while trying to avoid a war.

you can make friends with the Colorado Baronies. The kingdoms in the Sky, ect, to help form up a more stable defense force from the CS if they eventually make their way out there.

Again, with out dealing with demons to obliterate a human nation off the face of the earth.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pepsi ..

Yes or no the Coalition are immigrants of the North American Continent next to the Native American's who own the western united states ... And there for it is right by your logic for the Native's to come declare war and boot the Coalition off of north america .

Yes or no ?

The Native American's don't 'own' the western United states. They can be found in the western united states. Most of them are stone age bands of people.

And they are humans same as the CS. They have more claim over the land than the inhuman invaders from other dimensions. yeah.

And.. it can very well be argued that YES. They DO have more claim than the non native Americans. If they have enough military force they can try and retake it.

But then we'd be playing Shadowrun! lol that was thought up 20+ years ago. (( as a role playing thing. I know it's been a thought process/idea for far longer))

[Lenwen]

Pepsi ..

Yes or no the Coalition are immigrants of the North American Continent next to the Native American's who own the western united states ... And there for it is right by your logic for the Native's to come declare war and boot the Coalition off of north america .

Yes or no ?

The Native American's don't 'own' the western United states. They can be found in the western united states. Most of them are stone age bands of people.

And they are humans same as the CS. They have more claim over the land than the inhuman invaders from other dimensions. yeah.

And.. it can very well be argued that YES. They DO have more claim than the non native Americans. If they have enough military force they can try and retake it.

But then we'd be playing Shadowrun! lol that was thought up 20+ years ago. (( as a role playing thing. I know it's been a thought process/idea for far longer))

And by your CS tolkeen siege logic .. as been shown on this thread multiple times now ..

The Native American's would be in the right .. correct?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pepsi ..

Yes or no the Coalition are immigrants of the North American Continent next to the Native American's who own the western united states ... And there for it is right by your logic for the Native's to come declare war and boot the Coalition off of north america .

Yes or no ?

No, they are born on the continent just like the native Americans.

You do not know that. That is speculation .. because it does not state where they are from .. but the native american's have been stated as being there since before and after the comming of the rifts for centuries ..

Most of them are born in the super city of Chi-Town, it's in North America we can now say with no doubt anyone born on in Chi-town is a native of north america. ;D

the Humans of the CS are the descendants of the humans that were in America before the coming of rifts. That's stated in the books. Lenwen's being sneaky and is about to spring the "Well many of the DBees were born in north America too. It's been 300 years since the coming of rifts and we're often 3rd 5th or even 20th generation Dbees that were born and grew up here" Trap on ya.

I'm not argueing the "NA vs European 'claim' on North America thing.

I'm going a bit beyond that and going "Humans vs Aliens 'claim' on earth thing"

It's our planet. They're invaders on it. Even if they're generational invaders.

PERSONALLY. Just me.. PepsiJedi. I love DBees. I seldom play human. Very very seldom. Only in CS games (( where you're in the CS)) Do I play humans and even then I'm more prone to dog boy or psistalker.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pepsi ..

Yes or no the Coalition are immigrants of the North American Continent next to the Native American's who own the western united states ... And there for it is right by your logic for the Native's to come declare war and boot the Coalition off of north america .

Yes or no ?

The Native American's don't 'own' the western United states. They can be found in the western united states. Most of them are stone age bands of people.

And they are humans same as the CS. They have more claim over the land than the inhuman invaders from other dimensions. yeah.

And.. it can very well be argued that YES. They DO have more claim than the non native Americans. If they have enough military force they can try and retake it.

But then we'd be playing Shadowrun! lol that was thought up 20+ years ago. (( as a role playing thing. I know it's been a thought process/idea for far longer))

And by your CS tolkeen siege logic .. as been shown on this thread multiple times now ..

The Native American's would be in the right .. correct?

It could be argued that way. Certainly. There's people that say the same today. There's a guy on these boards that will throw it out there now and then. That all us white and black people should get out.

In Rifts earth, most of the NA are scattered bands of stone age peoples though. there's a dozen or so groups of technological ones that hold very small territories scattered over the hemisphere. They could make the claim, but couldn't enforce it. infact if you add them all up they'd be smaller than tolkeen I'm pretty sure.


Anyone have the numbers on Tolkeen? City population and army troop counts?

[Sureshot]

The problem with PJ plan as I see it is not implementing it which is a good plan. It's the fact as soon as he suggest withdrawing those in power are going to toss his carcass from the tallest building in Tolkeen. At the start no one on Tolkeen really wants to withdraw. They are itching for a hit. Relocating imo is not something they want to do let alone listen to. Maybe if the battle goes against them. At the start before the Cs invasion and the way Kevin portrayed them as stupidly arrogant cranked up to a factor of 11 well PJ is going to be out of job and possibly deceased if he attempts to encourage anything that stinks of running away from the Coalition.

Don't get me wrongPJ I like the plan. I just don't see how the NPCs of Tolkeen are written even listening to the plan.

[Lenwen]

Pepsi ..

Yes or no the Coalition are immigrants of the North American Continent next to the Native American's who own the western united states ... And there for it is right by your logic for the Native's to come declare war and boot the Coalition off of north america .

Yes or no ?

The Native American's don't 'own' the western United states. They can be found in the western united states. Most of them are stone age bands of people.

And they are humans same as the CS. They have more claim over the land than the inhuman invaders from other dimensions. yeah.

And.. it can very well be argued that YES. They DO have more claim than the non native Americans. If they have enough military force they can try and retake it.

But then we'd be playing Shadowrun! lol that was thought up 20+ years ago. (( as a role playing thing. I know it's been a thought process/idea for far longer))

And by your CS tolkeen siege logic .. as been shown on this thread multiple times now ..

The Native American's would be in the right .. correct?

It could be argued that way. Certainly. There's people that say the same today. There's a guy on these boards that will throw it out there now and then. That all us white and black people should get out.

In Rifts earth, most of the NA are scattered bands of stone age peoples though. there's a dozen or so groups of technological ones that hold very small territories scattered over the hemisphere. They could make the claim, but couldn't enforce it. infact if you add them all up they'd be smaller than tolkeen I'm pretty sure.


Anyone have the numbers on Tolkeen? City population and army troop counts?

You have yet to answer my question directly, as I asked you a direct question Pepsi ..

Yes or no .. The generational descendent's of european peoples (The Coalition) have less claim to the North American continent then the Generational Decsendent's of the original North American's ..

And as such .. The Native american's would be right .. in booting the Coalition off North America ..

Yes or no Pepsi ?

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pepsi ..

Yes or no the Coalition are immigrants of the North American Continent next to the Native American's who own the western united states ... And there for it is right by your logic for the Native's to come declare war and boot the Coalition off of north america .

Yes or no ?

The Native American's don't 'own' the western United states. They can be found in the western united states. Most of them are stone age bands of people.

And they are humans same as the CS. They have more claim over the land than the inhuman invaders from other dimensions. yeah.

And.. it can very well be argued that YES. They DO have more claim than the non native Americans. If they have enough military force they can try and retake it.

But then we'd be playing Shadowrun! lol that was thought up 20+ years ago. (( as a role playing thing. I know it's been a thought process/idea for far longer))

And by your CS tolkeen siege logic .. as been shown on this thread multiple times now ..

The Native American's would be in the right .. correct?

It could be argued that way. Certainly. There's people that say the same today. There's a guy on these boards that will throw it out there now and then. That all us white and black people should get out.

In Rifts earth, most of the NA are scattered bands of stone age peoples though. there's a dozen or so groups of technological ones that hold very small territories scattered over the hemisphere. They could make the claim, but couldn't enforce it. infact if you add them all up they'd be smaller than tolkeen I'm pretty sure.


Anyone have the numbers on Tolkeen? City population and army troop counts?

You have yet to answer my question directly, as I asked you a direct question Pepsi ..

Yes or no .. The generational descendent's of european peoples (The Coalition) have less claim to the North American continent then the Generational Decsendent's of the original North American's ..

And as such .. The Native american's would be right .. in booting the Coalition off North America ..

Yes or no Pepsi ?

It's not that simple. The Coalition has descendants of Native American's as well. You're trying to black and white a situation that has other shades in it.

[Lenwen]

You have yet to answer my question directly, as I asked you a direct question Pepsi ..

Yes or no .. The generational descendent's of european peoples (The Coalition) have less claim to the North American continent then the Generational Decsendent's of the original North American's ..

And as such .. The Native american's would be right .. in booting the Coalition off North America ..

Yes or no Pepsi ?

It's not that simple. The Coalition has descendants of Native American's as well. You're trying to black and white a situation that has other shades in it.

Actually that is a "claim" .. you nor I have no knowledge on that true or not Pepsi ..

Unless you can cite a book and page number verifying your claims ?

And you can not provide a book an page number to verify your claim .. then just answer my question

[Pepsi Jedi]

You have yet to answer my question directly, as I asked you a direct question Pepsi ..

Yes or no .. The generational descendent's of european peoples (The Coalition) have less claim to the North American continent then the Generational Decsendent's of the original North American's ..

And as such .. The Native american's would be right .. in booting the Coalition off North America ..

Yes or no Pepsi ?

It's not that simple. The Coalition has descendants of Native American's as well. You're trying to black and white a situation that has other shades in it.

Actually that is a "claim" .. you nor I have no knowledge on that true or not Pepsi ..

Unless you can cite a book and page number verifying your claims ?

And you can not provide a book an page number to verify your claim .. then just answer my question

What claim? that there's different ethnotypes in the CS?

[Pepsi Jedi]

The problem with PJ plan as I see it is not implementing it which is a good plan. It's the fact as soon as he suggest withdrawing those in power are going to toss his carcass from the tallest building in Tolkeen. At the start no one on Tolkeen really wants to withdraw. They are itching for a hit. Relocating imo is not something they want to do let alone listen to. Maybe if the battle goes against them. At the start before the Cs invasion and the way Kevin portrayed them as stupidly arrogant cranked up to a factor of 11 well PJ is going to be out of job and possibly deceased if he attempts to encourage anything that stinks of running away from the Coalition.

Don't get me wrongPJ I like the plan. I just don't see how the NPCs of Tolkeen are written even listening to the plan.

Quite possible. But then the path that is endorced leads to destruction. I guess it would depend on when the evac plan was proposed. before or after the upswing of evil in power in tolkeen.

If you went this way you could likely get people like Erin Tarn and Plato to also speak out for the non viloent option of evacuation and relocation vs the war with the CS and the taming up with the demonic armies.

But it's possible it might not work. And if not... they die, like they did in canon. But it IS an option that was open to them. just one that (( Due to writing, and the direction of the series )) Wasn't chosen.

[Lenwen]

You have yet to answer my question directly, as I asked you a direct question Pepsi ..

Yes or no .. The generational descendent's of european peoples (The Coalition) have less claim to the North American continent then the Generational Decsendent's of the original North American's ..

And as such .. The Native american's would be right .. in booting the Coalition off North America ..

Yes or no Pepsi ?

It's not that simple. The Coalition has descendants of Native American's as well. You're trying to black and white a situation that has other shades in it.

Actually that is a "claim" .. you nor I have no knowledge on that true or not Pepsi ..

Unless you can cite a book and page number verifying your claims ?

And you can not provide a book an page number to verify your claim .. then just answer my question

What claim? that there's different ethnotypes in the CS?

Your specific claim that there are native american's in the coalition ..

Not your "generalities" of different ethnotypes .. you made a very specific claim .. then attempted just here to broaden it .. I say back up your very specific claim of Native American's .. being in the CS at all .

[Pepsi Jedi]

You have yet to answer my question directly, as I asked you a direct question Pepsi ..

Yes or no .. The generational descendent's of european peoples (The Coalition) have less claim to the North American continent then the Generational Decsendent's of the original North American's ..

And as such .. The Native american's would be right .. in booting the Coalition off North America ..

Yes or no Pepsi ?

It's not that simple. The Coalition has descendants of Native American's as well. You're trying to black and white a situation that has other shades in it.

Actually that is a "claim" .. you nor I have no knowledge on that true or not Pepsi ..

Unless you can cite a book and page number verifying your claims ?

And you can not provide a book an page number to verify your claim .. then just answer my question

What claim? that there's different ethnotypes in the CS?

Your specific claim that there are native american's in the coalition ..

Not your "generalities" of different ethnotypes .. you made a very specific claim .. then attempted just here to broaden it .. I say back up your very specific claim of Native American's .. being in the CS at all .

This is back to demanding cited sources for generally accepted givens. "Well it doesn't SAY that humans can ONLY breathe air... so.. cite your source where it says they can't breathe Argon gas... Can't find it? HA!" Sort of thing.

The CS are human descendants of surviving American people. It does not state "Just whites" or "Just whites and blacks" It says Americans, so you can assume there's Caucasians, African Americans, Asians, Native Americans, ect.

[Lenwen]

This is back to demanding cited sources for generally accepted givens. "Well it doesn't SAY that humans can ONLY breathe air... so.. cite your source where it says they can't breathe Argon gas... Can't find it? HA!" Sort of thing.

The CS are human descendants of surviving American people. It does not state "Just whites" or "Just whites and blacks" It says Americans, so you can assume there's Caucasians, African Americans, Asians, Native Americans, ect.

If you can not find a cited source to back a "claim" .. then it is an opinion.

You are the one who made me (back) into a Cite your source .. type of person. With out those .. its just an opinion. Right now the total population of North American Native americans is something like 1% or 0.1%. And you think the CS would have some in thier coalition .. just because .. when thier is an entire two books that show's exactly where they are ?

[Pepsi Jedi]

This is back to demanding cited sources for generally accepted givens. "Well it doesn't SAY that humans can ONLY breathe air... so.. cite your source where it says they can't breathe Argon gas... Can't find it? HA!" Sort of thing.

The CS are human descendants of surviving American people. It does not state "Just whites" or "Just whites and blacks" It says Americans, so you can assume there's Caucasians, African Americans, Asians, Native Americans, ect.

If you can not find a cited source to back a "claim" .. then it is an opinion.

You are the one who made me (back) into a Cite your source .. type of person. With out those .. its just an opinion. Right now the total population of North American Native americans is something like 1% or 0.1%. And you think the CS would have some in thier coalition .. just because .. when thier is an entire two books that show's exactly where they are ?

So it's my opinion that humans can not breath argon gas?

Cite me a source where it says they can't.

Cite me a source that says there are no Native Americans in the CS. By your logic there must be till you can prove there aren't.

[Lenwen]

This is back to demanding cited sources for generally accepted givens. "Well it doesn't SAY that humans can ONLY breathe air... so.. cite your source where it says they can't breathe Argon gas... Can't find it? HA!" Sort of thing.

The CS are human descendants of surviving American people. It does not state "Just whites" or "Just whites and blacks" It says Americans, so you can assume there's Caucasians, African Americans, Asians, Native Americans, ect.

If you can not find a cited source to back a "claim" .. then it is an opinion.

You are the one who made me (back) into a Cite your source .. type of person. With out those .. its just an opinion. Right now the total population of North American Native americans is something like 1% or 0.1%. And you think the CS would have some in thier coalition .. just because .. when thier is an entire two books that show's exactly where they are ?

So it's my opinion that humans can not breath argon gas?

Cite me a source where it says they can't.

Cite me a source that says there are no Native Americans in the CS. By your logic there must be till you can prove there aren't.

You .. as the one making claims ..(Notice I have not made any .. you are attempting to put words in my mouth.. earlier you asked some one else to stop that yet here you are doing exactly that)

And as such I need not cite any sources .. for claims you are attempting to pass off as something I made .

But if you can not provide a source for you claim of native american natives .. as a part of the coalition .. that is nothing.. I was just showing you that now that I am here with my books I can make correct citations of quotes an provide canon refrences as needed to verify my claims. Making them canon statements rather then opinion.

[Giant2005]

Spirit West page 32: "There are some Renegades and even a few Traditionalists who have joined the Coalition forces"
There are Native Americans within the Coalition but either way I'm not sure what the point of that argument is, considering Tolkeen has humans too...

[Akashic Soldier]

Pepsi is right guys.

You might not like it or want it to be true but lets just please for the sake of your own integrity and credibility take a deep breath and look at the situation without personal biases.

Tolkeen used Demons, when Tolkeen's noble Cyber Knight allies (each one a champion of virtue) said "I say thee nay!" the demons killed them.

The Cyber Knights which are nearly always good aligned were slaughtered by demons who are nearly always (if not always) diabolic, malicious and evil that were fielded by Tolkeen.

Now lets look at how this actually impacts events seriously, as described Magic in Rifts is a bit like science. Even the instinctual magic of the Mystic comes with a level of "comic understanding" so the men or women who summoned them KNEW what they were doing. They knew the nature of the demons, they knew how dangerous they are... and most importantly, they knew the risks. They did so anyway. Now remember, this wasn't a few powerful demons shackled by oaths to use as mindless heavy munitions support their armies on the fields this was an army of demons. We're talking end of the world of $hit here folks. Great volcanic rants in the earth, noxious gas in air, a tinted red sky. That's what these guys did, that is what they considered "fair play."

It was a war of pride and fear as I mentioned in my previous post for those who want to pretty it up a little.

The Wizards and D-Bee's of Tolkeen knew what they were up against. The CS seriously outnumbered them, the Coalition was a State (larger by our current standards of a state) and they were a City. The problem came down to the fact that they underestimated their enemies and overestimated their own magical abilities--which can happen when you can snap your fingers and kill a team of four men with a lightning bolt.

The Coalition is constantly pitched as morons and accused of handwaveicum but it isn't like they swooped in and won. They took considerable losses, they had to use to strategy. If you looked at who took the most losses per man I am willing to bet that the CS (as the invaders) took more losses per man than Tolkeen. They weren't just faced with giant golems, elementals, and demons... they were faced with the unknown. The manifestation of all their greatest fears. Tolkeen was the Coalition States World War II. It was what their culture had been built on, what their mothers and fathers had died to prevent and to expect anything less would bring shame on your family and their sacrifice.

Why do you think so many men and women were willing to marching into death knowing that only a few would make it out the narrow tunnel and why, even exhausted, even after watching many of their friends die, do you think they pressed that final attack?

It was the decisive battle, in their minds every bullet was chased by the dreams of their children, every laser blast burned as brightly as the future of humanity and more than one soldier who lied dying in the mud, using these realities, was able to hold on just long enough to smile at the bastard who'd killed him and pull the pin on the grenade on his belt before he bowed out.

Tolkeen was fighting for their home but more so they were fighting in the name of pride and mad ambition. They had scoffed at the Federation of Magic and shrugged their shoulders at the losses of the Cyber Knights, they had replaced their losses with souless killing machines who were fighting because compelled and not because they had any real concern for the fate of the once great City of Tolkeen. They weren't desperate. They were confident. They had overcome the Coalitions trump cards at almost every turn, dismissed their most powerful weapons with a wave of their hands, and they were going to show the Federation and everyone else that THEY were the ones to defeat the Coalition States and that THEY had the strongest standing army in North America.

Now, I don't agree with what Pespi said about a scrupulous alignment not making deals with demons and I'll tell you why... it reduces the character to a 2D stereotype. I believe that it would be very easy to convince a scrupulous leader that this was a necessary evil (he isn't principled after all and history shows us that evil wizard generals make for great liars). Maybe in the final moments of Tolkeen their leader finally saw through their deceptions as the city burned and died a good man (I dont recall his fate) or maybe he died believing the lie because he couldn't accept what he had allowed his people to become.

Whatever the case; I've seen people argue game stats (which are there to help tell a story and not define it), I've seen people argue outcome (often without considering the circumstances or impact of moral in war), and I've seen the word handwaveicum thrown around on both sides and I find the whole thing rather silly because over all it is a pretty good story.

I mean, sure no one wants the CS to win. They're the aggressors but and maybe every single one is evil and a soulless nazi, but they're still human. They still loved and fought and died for a cause and a reason they believed was just. They were pushed and pushed and taunted by Tolkeen who were four Jew's driving by and mooning a group of skinheads not thinking that the skinheads would jump the fence and run after them then drag them out through the car window into the street and liberally distribute curb stompings. And then it got worse from there.

It was a horrible event and tragedy but if people actually think about events, use their imagination and try to make sense of them instead of crunching numbers or saying "why didn't they just do this" then it makes sense. For every could of or would of that Tolkeen supporters are going to come up with the Coalition supporters are going to have a counter argument or answer.

I said it early but for the most part according to the material Pepsi is right. Its easy to root for the underdog (Tolkeen) and its easy to see magic and prionics as superior to technology in every way (its a gamer cultural thing) but what matters most when it comes to war and how war plays out is motive and moral.

Not every Tolkeen soldier stood and fought, the Deadboy's have a reputation for being the best after all. It's a reputation that you can scoff at but when the guy in the Samas lands on the Dragon, prys open its mouth, stuffs his cannon down its throat and does away with it its enough to make the most seasoned soldier think "maybe we should withdraw" or "What the hell are we dealing with here?"

The CS were zealots and we shouldn't underestimate the psychological impact of their uniform troops. Of course there is no statistical advantage to this but from the perception of Tolkeen's soldiers, they would've been dropping one or two of these guys and their files were nearly instantly filled by others. It would be difficult to make out the silhouettes of single soldiers or really feel like you were making an impact on their forces until you'd actually sufficiently cut down their numbers of won and the skull motif being symbolic of the death's head has massive significance to a spiritually active person.

Anyway, I guess I am just rambling... but there is a lot here (on both sides) that maybe folks haven't considered yet.

But the most important thing to remember is that Coalition States won because they wanted it more and because they were willing to sacrifice more for the win. And now that Tolkeen has fallen, its reputation muddied beyond repair, the Coalition is going to look more appealing to communities that would've never considered their way of life and other world powers are going to sit back and take extra steps to beef up their security.

Tolkeen was history repeating itself.

It was the event that lead to the global paranoia that triggered the Rifts all over again.

[Lenwen]

Spirit West page 32: "There are some Renegades and even a few Traditionalists who have joined the Coalition forces"
There are Native Americans within the Coalition but either way I'm not sure what the point of that argument is, considering Tolkeen has humans too...

Lets finish that quote ..

There are some Renegades and even a few Traditionalists who have joined the Coalition forces, as wilderness scouts and mercenaries for hire.

This only further strengthens my point of view .. they neither live in CS held territory .. nor do they live in CS cities .. they are "Hired" merc's .. nothing more.

[Lenwen]

I think I will take a closer look at the "Rightousness" of the Coalition's .. seige .. and make me a post about just how rightous they were .. protecting a city that was apperantly (According to some) attacking Coalition Civilian population centers .. and out right instigating the Coalition .

[DhAkael]

*listens to sound of rotting horse flesh being flensed off of a very much EX-equine via 3m long peice of braided & toughend cow-hide*