Question

[Mad Cow Milk]

Irecently bought Nightbane and I'm having trouble finding the section taht desribes how many skill points you start out with.Anyone like to tell me how you determine this?

PG 88 is when it starts for a nightbane. There it states the amount of secondary skills right below the R.C.C. Skill section.

After that each Package has their own amount. Look for the R.C.C. Related SKills section below the R.C.C. Skills.

[Mad Cow Milk]

Do you even have an option as to what amount they start out with?Because I'm not seeing anything that makes a whole lot of sense.

... As for secondary skills no they all start out at the same.

Class related skills depend on the package you choose.

Tell me which starting package you are looking at and I will tell you exactly where it is.

[Mad Cow Milk]

You have to choose one of those packages?I'm more use to just choosing my skills then adding into them.

None of it i smaking sense if it's a primary skill, do you add another percentile on, do you?Nothing I am seeing anywhere is helping.I need a chart or table of how this works.

You are making a Nightbane right?
You have the Nightbane core book by C.J. Carella right?

If you have the right book then READ pages 87, 88, and 89. Stop after the Money section.

If both of these are correct, Go to page 88.

Here you Will see in bold the following.
Damage
Bonuses: Facade
Bonuses: Morphus
Magic Powers
Psionic Powers
Vulnerabilities/Penalties
R.C.C. Skills
Secondary Skills
Alliances and Allies
Weapons and Equipment

The RCC skills section should tell you a little about the skill packages you have to chose from.

The packages from this book are the following
Basic Nightbane Skill Package on page 89
Resistance/Spook Squad-Trained Nightbane Skill Package on page 89
Trained Nightbane: Nocturne/Seeker/Lightbringer Skill Package on page 90
Warlord Nightbane Skill Package on page 90

Each have R.C.C. Skills
Here you have the skills they get for free and sometimes at a higher bonuses than normal.

After that you can choose Related Skills and these skills get a bonus to their % depending on which ones you get this is the % listed in the (+XX%) beside the categories. These also start as if you have gone up one level. So if your skill Radio Basic as a R.C.C. skill or related skill. The base is 45% with a +5% bonus per level. As a R.C.C. skill or Related skill it increases to 50% because it has a +5% bonus per level, you then add in the bonus (if any) listed next to that skill or skill category. If you chose this skill as a secondary skill it would be only 45% and not got any other bonuses.

[Mad Cow Milk]

Yeah...None of those are looking like they're suited to my style of play.I'm a thinking man.Also what do they mean by any,they don't give any percentages for those.If this were an entirely class based system,it would be a little more sensible.

Those are just the categories. Go to page 48 to see skills in those categories that you get to choose from. The (+XX%) is just the bonus you get for the skills you chose in that section.

Really, you should try and read this book cover to cover if you are not familiar with the system. It is not that hard of a read, I played this system when I was like 13. Maybe drop what you are not going to use, like maybe psionics and magic spells? But if you are running the game you need to know everything.

[Mad Cow Milk]

Yeah...None of those are looking like they're suited to my style of play.I'm a thinking man.Also what do they mean by any,they don't give any percentages for those.If this were an entirely class based system,it would be a little more sensible.

...I am sorry but it feels like your being resistant to the game. AGAIN the page 48 is just a list. the details follow in the next pages.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Okay, basically it's this.

There are no skill points, persay. Every character starts with a package of Pre-set skills. You pick one. Then you pick Other skills and Secondary skills to flesh your character out.

And yes, Nightbane tend to lack a "thinking man's" Skill package because Nightbane in general don't have time to be trained. The average nightbane should be a teen, either still in high school or just barely out of it, before they suddenly got drafted into a war not of their own choosing. You pick a side, your skills reflect which faction you joined, however here's the catch:

In general, the default assumption is that Nightbane don't really have much choice, in general. The becoming changed your life forever.

You can TRY to go it alone, play it your way. But then you have no one watching your back...dangerous, indeed.

So generally they join an established faction.

Problem is, your green meat, a rookie. No one's asking you to be thinking man. They're asking you to be what you are: A supernaturally strong powerhouse with innate talents that are both strange and dangerous.

You CAN be a thinking man, though. You can prove yourself one, acend the ranks, become the person your faction goes to when they need an answer to the really sticky problems.

But you do it with your other skills and your secondary skills. That's what those skills are FOR, to define your character.

It goes like this.

OCC skills/Skill Package skills are your job. it's what your faction has taught you, it's what THEY want you to be, some kind of fighter.

Your OCC skills are what YOU want to be. it can be a thinking man, or a fighter, or a mountineer, or similar. It's you staking out your own way in the world, beyond what you do to get a paycheck.

Your Secondary skills are like your hobby skills. This is what you do in your spare time. So if you like cooking, you probablly watch cooking shows and practice what you saw. If you take automotive mechanics, you tinker with your ride on days off. None of these are quite up to professional standards, unless you spend 2 slots on them, but they're good enough and they get the job done, well, if your lucky, or with experiance.

I hope this helps you understand palladiums skill system and Nightbane as a whole!

[Mad Cow Milk]

I like building characters who reflect myself some times, and art of that is being the guy who just knows stuff.I've always been fond of teh idea of teh somewhat averagely built/lanky looking fellow who seems rather stately and obviously intelligent who has another side that is a little more deadly than he at first appears.To be honest it seems a litttle haphazard.For examle,let's say part of the character is that he is a devout wiccan, wouldn't that imply a greater than average understanding of the occult, or a catholic priest who also happens to be a Nightbane?perhaps one of these guys was a real nerd before the becoming.There are a number of life details, that the skill package system does not account for.What's the point of starting out with most of the skills you have being ones you have no intention of ever using. I mean what the hell do I need a mechanics skill when I don't plan on playing an engineer type?

So then I must ask why they would give you wide variety of certain

There are a number of skill packages here. Choose the one that fits your concept the best, and just call it something else. If these are really not what you are looking for, may I suggest getting the Nightbane survival guide. There are more skill packages there.

[Nekira Sudacne]

That, however, is the point of "Nightbane all have their becoming as Teens/High Schoolers. None of them HAD a job before the becoming. There are no catholic preist nightbane at first level, because they all had their becoming well before they had a chance to take holy orders.

Yes, it is restrictive, but that was the intention. Nightbane, by the origional authors veiw, were all orphans to a one, raised in orphanges and foster homes, or on the streets, or sometimes by adoptive parents (who may or may not have told them), and had their becoming well before they had a chance to do more than minium wage McJobs.

The other flaw you have to realize is that these creation rules are for PC's only. This is what first level new nightbane have. it's assumed and expected that NPC's do not follow the same rules and have whatever skills and backgrounds the GM feels like.

Do remember that Palladium, at it's heart, is a varient on AD&D. In fact the palladium system itself grew out of the houserules Kevin Seimbedia made for his AD&D games. If you see things that don't seem to make sense, try to keep this in mind, it's the tacit assumption of the entire product line.

PC's are all adventurers, NPC's do not even pretend to follow the same rules as PC's. This should explain much. Every OCC and skill package is designed for an adventurer. It's assumed that if you are a preist, your the D&D Inqusitor/Holy Warrior type of preist, and not the occult preist.

It can be confusing, granted. AD&D at least had the courtesy to spell those assumptions out, making it clear that the offerings presented class-wise were Adventurers Only and that other types of characters were unmade NPC classes, or worse, no class at all. Furthermore this was the only character type that was supported. It is assumed, tacitly, that EVERY PC is a 16-20 year old just BARELY starting out in the world with barely some equipment and spending money to their name. There are no Background type options because the PC's are assumed to have not had time to get any, no character history because that's what your forging.

It's generally the assumption of most Modern games (White wolf, shadowpunk, GURPS), that characters begin around what we would consider "Mid-level" and have the potential to have already gathered some degree of wealth/history background (You can even make that a central focus and start being filthy rich as your character's schtik). Palladium assumes that every PC is barely starting out in the world, and the only job they really want is some type of adventurer.

Palladium however, at first seems to imply that these skills/packages OCC's (Especially in Rifts) Cover every job of every person on the planet. It's only when you understand that it's not just "like" D&D but is "A varient AD&D system" that you understand the source of the problems. It's holdover assumptions that were never made clear.

As for rather this is a good or bad thing...well...There's a reason The Game moved on from AD&D.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I never did like the NS/NB skills packages, so I ether use an OCC, or just use the "The Psycik's" skills package.

[Nekira Sudacne]

In D&D you're told choose a class, and it's implied that you're good with everything that entails(the 3.5 stuff was a mess though).I can understand that.The Whitewolf system, a bit tricky at first, but you have a lot of choices,and the same goes with Shadowrun.The chaosium system, you arn't quite as powerful,but you can create most anything you desire.Such tight restriction is my creative bane.It also assumes your enemies at large are already better than you and makes it easier for you to be killed.There's something innately nopnsensical about assuing an extraordinary person doesn't have at least one extraordinary skill.It kinda gives the feeling of "why did I even bother?" Sure I can a witty remark or eloquent speech in character,but oh wait, it may be part of your charcter description,but some illogically assembled skill package says you can't.Or a character that hates football is stuck with said skill simply because he had to choos eteh closest,or teh ello prodigy,who has aprt of his backstory being so can't play because hsi skill pacjkage does not have it.Or the kid who knew he was different, was moody and wrote alot of poetry,and was known for being excellent with it, can't write it, because his skill package does not include it.

What it does work for is the football player characterwho loves stereoptypical guy stuff but for whatever wierd reason loves to crochet or grow roses in his spare.if that's the character you want to play, fine,good for you.Nor do I have a problem with guys who crochet or grow roses or think it's unmanly.But that just does not work for me.Also the max starting IQ possible seems to be twenty four, and the resulting bonuses barely help out.It kinda makes the packages seem useless unless all you want to do is play a rogue/fighter(used as generalities) type.I don't like the thought of being forced to take maybe threee skils I do want, then have to take 10 others I could care less about as a result. I plan on getting teh survival guide and hope to the Gods there is something workablee in there.

Again, you CAN do all that stuff. That's what the OCC related skills are for, your skill package is not the end-all be all of your skillset.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Wow I just noticed the typos...I need to type slower.

Also not really seeing much there, and it certainly doesn't seem like it.It effectively makes most skills useless until you start getting up there.Not very encouraging.The OCCs don't seem to do much either.Of which I'm not seeing much of anything.The general types I'm used to playing (once again speaking in archetypal rpg generalities, because those are usually universally understood by anyone who has ever picked up a book pretaining to table top rpgs) is closer to a wizard,bard,druid, or a cleric.I lready looked at the sorcerer and mystic OCCs,still not really what I seek.Closer,but not quite.The lightbringer/seeker/etc. is the closest,(once agin not it)but I really don't see a need for the math skills.In general, the only math being done by players is addition,subtraction,some percentages,multiplication,and division, and generally(i estimate around 99% of all campaigns of nay game) you don't encounter crises that revolve around algebra.

That's...fairly incomprehensible, spelling aside. The OCC's don't do much of what. Skills are useless why?

[Jockitch74]

Could always go with the Education Tables out of Heroes Unilimited, That's what I use for non-factioned Nightbane. Works well. Considering the age of becoming is anywhere between 14 and 24. So some of them might have started careers or furthered their educations.

[Mad Cow Milk]

Could always go with the Education Tables out of Heroes Unilimited, That's what I use for non-factioned Nightbane. Works well. Considering the age of becoming is anywhere between 14 and 24. So some of them might have started careers or furthered their educations.

Not any more via the Nightbane Survival Guide. No age is safe now.

[TechnoGothic]

You have taken a Close look at Character Generation in General right ?

The SKILL Section in the front of the book lists the Level One starting Skill %.
Look at the RCC/OCC Skill List for your Nightbane. If it Lists (+15%) then you add +15% to the Base Skill % found in the front of the book. Each Level "most" skills go up 5% or whatever the Skill List says it advances for that skill.

The OCC Skills are the 100% Must Have skills for that RCC/OCC.
The RELATED SKILLS are were you get to Select Skills of additional Learning for you Concept in mind.

You want a Nightbane more Like Yourself ?
Look at the Basic Nightbane Skill Package. The Basic Skill package is You up to Highschool or collage or so. Now Take a Close look at RCC Related Skills. Select 10 Skills from those Catagories listed below in the List. The Skills under those catagories are on page 48. Select the ones a character-like you might have. Dont worry if its not enough. You still have 6 Secondary Skills to select with no bonuses. Skills you just picked up with formal learning or schooling usually. Remember to look up each individual skill you have between pgs 49-60 for the skill % or combat bonuses (WPs).

The Hardest Thing about Palladium Char.Gen is writting down Skill % and Combat Bonuses from Skills, OCC, RCC, etc... With Nightbane you have Two Forms which will have different bonuses in combat remember.

[TechnoGothic]

Could always go with the Education Tables out of Heroes Unilimited, That's what I use for non-factioned Nightbane. Works well. Considering the age of becoming is anywhere between 14 and 24. So some of them might have started careers or furthered their educations.

Not any more via the Nightbane Survival Guide. No age is safe now.

I have One Problem with the Nightbane Survivial Guide Skills Programs ... All Have Hand-to-Hand included for no reason at all. Not everyone is trained in Self-defense. This really eerked me i must say. If I use them, i'll just ignore the Hand-To-Hand as part of the Skill Packages. For None Combat OCCs/Packages, any HtH skills should be optional as Related Skills or Secondary Skills (for basic only).

[Nekira Sudacne]

Could always go with the Education Tables out of Heroes Unilimited, That's what I use for non-factioned Nightbane. Works well. Considering the age of becoming is anywhere between 14 and 24. So some of them might have started careers or furthered their educations.

Not any more via the Nightbane Survival Guide. No age is safe now.

I have One Problem with the Nightbane Survivial Guide Skills Programs ... All Have Hand-to-Hand included for no reason at all. Not everyone is trained in Self-defense. This really eerked me i must say. If I use them, i'll just ignore the Hand-To-Hand as part of the Skill Packages. For None Combat OCCs/Packages, any HtH skills should be optional as Related Skills or Secondary Skills (for basic only).

I think this is answered by the "assumptions founded from D&D". All PC's are assumed to be adventurers, and so all PC's are assumed to be at least minimially competent in a fight. Not everyone is trained in self-defence, no, but it's assumed all PC's are.

[Shark_Force]

If I recall correctly though,there's an instinctual element to how Nightbane fight,and that generally they some innate knowlegdeon how to use things like sharp crystalline protrusions,claws, or any other such morphus trait that can be used for it.

when they are in morphus form, they automatically get hand-to-hand: martial arts.

but unless they specifically have formal training, they don't have any hand-to-hand skill in facade form.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Also will people stop mentioning page f*cking 48.Sure it does not really help because all the skills I personally would have get the least amount of love from teh creators.Thought is a more deadly weapon than any gun or claw.Will I fight yes?But that's not my emphasis in any game.

I think a large part of the problem then, is that the default nightbane setting isn't necessarly right for you. The fundamental assumption is that Nightbane are soldigers drafted into the larger war rather they like it or not. It's explcitly designed to force them into combat roles. This is a feature, not a bug.

[Nekira Sudacne]

My fundamental assumption is that these people could be absolutely anyone and you wouldn't know it until the facade was shed.If ever I find one of these bloody education tables or when I get the survival guide,I honestly hope it shows something more sensible.It also assumes taht at some pointt these people had something similiar to a normal life.Also the werewolf white wolf werewolf settiings (both apocalypse and forsaken) are similiar in that way,but still it allows one to be something other than right off.You could have the most nerdy, scrawny s.o.b. on the planet, who seems a total push over in human form,but could then suddenly turn into a ruthless killing machine.The first image ofa Nightbane that popped into my head was of a rather lanky looking goth type (the concept kinda screamed goth at me)who would rather philosophize most of the time rather than kill, but is essentialy forced to.Also shapeshifting has long been more associated with sorcery rather than combat.So on a cultural history level,it's kinda contradictory.I know it's fiction,but I have a bit of a thing for anthropological study, and taht part of me likes to point out discrepencies.

Well, it does have variant skill packages, such as college grads and truckers and such, but they are all designed to faciliate some level of action dispite that.

As far as being unkown, that's not the case. Remember the part about nightbane always sensing other nightbane? As soon as another nightbane sees you, they know, it's automatic.

And yes, being a scrany kid in human form and suddenly a badass IS a valid concept. Nothing wrong with that.

But yea. Nightbane's shapeshifting has aboslutely nothing to do with sorcerry. it's just a natural ability.

[Mad Cow Milk]

This was ether a rule we used or created a long time ago in our games. If you put a secondary or related skill devoted to a skill you already have, up the % as if it was 1 level higher.

Another 100% house rule we played was that if you used a Related skill you could get any skill you wanted, but it was treated as a secondary skill; started at base.

[drewkitty ~..~]

This was ether a rule we used or created a long time ago in our games. If you put a secondary or related skill devoted to a skill you already have, up the % as if it was 1 level higher.

...snip

The 'around the table' group I played with came up with a related rule for N&S chars. Because the N%S skill programs had a lot of overlap on some skills. If you had two skill programs that had the same skill, then the skill in one would get a +1 level while it was omitted from the other SP. Mostly this ended up the Superspy ending up at L1 having +3-6 levels in WP Auto Pistol.

[Mad Cow Milk]

This was ether a rule we used or created a long time ago in our games. If you put a secondary or related skill devoted to a skill you already have, up the % as if it was 1 level higher.

...snip

The 'around the table' group I played with came up with a related rule for N&S chars. Because the N%S skill programs had a lot of overlap on some skills. If you had two skill programs that had the same skill, then the skill in one would get a +1 level while it was omitted from the other SP. Mostly this ended up the Superspy ending up at L1 having +3-6 levels in WP Auto Pistol.

We only dealt with % skills, never really did WP and bonus only Physical skills.

[drewkitty ~..~]

This was ether a rule we used or created a long time ago in our games. If you put a secondary or related skill devoted to a skill you already have, up the % as if it was 1 level higher.

...snip

The 'around the table' group I played with came up with a related rule for N&S chars. Because the N%S skill programs had a lot of overlap on some skills. If you had two skill programs that had the same skill, then the skill in one would get a +1 level while it was omitted from the other SP. Mostly this ended up the Superspy ending up at L1 having +3-6 levels in WP Auto Pistol.

We only dealt with % skills, never really did WP and bonus only Physical skills.

I just do the upgrades no matter if its a % or a D20 skill across the board. Also converting the D20 bonus from PP to a % bonus for skills like Gym. or acro.

[TechnoGothic]

If I recall correctly though,there's an instinctual element to how Nightbane fight,and that generally they some innate knowlegdeon how to use things like sharp crystalline protrusions,claws, or any other such morphus trait that can be used for it.

In the Nightbane Corebook.
Fascade form has no innate combat abilities. You can select a HtH if you wish, if it fits the concept of course.
Morphus Form has Innate Martial Arts skill. The combat bonuses are simple. Morphus Form bonuses + Martial Art skill.

My fundamental assumption is that these people could be absolutely anyone and you wouldn't know it until the facade was shed.If ever I find one of these bloody education tables or when I get the survival guide,I honestly hope it shows something more sensible.It also assumes taht at some pointt these people had something similiar to a normal life.Also the werewolf white wolf werewolf settiings (both apocalypse and forsaken) are similiar in that way,but still it allows one to be something other than right off.You could have the most nerdy, scrawny s.o.b. on the planet, who seems a total push over in human form,but could then suddenly turn into a ruthless killing machine.The first image ofa Nightbane that popped into my head was of a rather lanky looking goth type (the concept kinda screamed goth at me)who would rather philosophize most of the time rather than kill, but is essentialy forced to.Also shapeshifting has long been more associated with sorcery rather than combat.So on a cultural history level,it's kinda contradictory.I know it's fiction,but I have a bit of a thing for anthropological study, and taht part of me likes to point out discrepencies.

If you want EDUCATION Levels, check out HEROES UNLIMITED 2nd Edition Corebook.
I myself prefer Education Levels for Modern Era settings.

I'm also not quite sure I get how you know how good you are with a combat related skill,since they don't just tell you a base.

Really ??

Modern Weapon Bonuses = Page 60.

Hand to Hand Bonuses = page 65.

YOU have No Base .... "+0".
PP Attribute Bonuse (If any) (if 17 & Higher you will have a bonuse). (pg 34)
Next Add Hand-to-Hand Bonuses (if any). (pg 65)
Next add Physical Skills Bonuses (if any). (pg 52-54)
Next add RCC Morphus Bonuses (Only while in Morphus Form). (pg 88)
Next check Morphus Features for any possible Bonuses (Attributes bonuses, damages, etc..)

Combat is a d20 roll not a %, just in case.

[Kovoston]

I like building characters who reflect myself some times, and art of that is being the guy who just knows stuff.I've always been fond of teh idea of teh somewhat averagely built/lanky looking fellow who seems rather stately and obviously intelligent who has another side that is a little more deadly than he at first appears.To be honest it seems a litttle haphazard.For examle,let's say part of the character is that he is a devout wiccan, wouldn't that imply a greater than average understanding of the occult, or a catholic priest who also happens to be a Nightbane?perhaps one of these guys was a real nerd before the becoming.There are a number of life details, that the skill package system does not account for.What's the point of starting out with most of the skills you have being ones you have no intention of ever using. I mean what the hell do I need a mechanics skill when I don't plan on playing an engineer type?

So then I must ask why they would give you wide variety of certain

There are a number of skill packages here. Choose the one that fits your concept the best, and just call it something else. If these are really not what you are looking for, may I suggest getting the Nightbane survival guide. There are more skill packages there.

I've been meaning to get the NB Survival Guide! How is that book?

[Mad Cow Milk]

There are a number of skill packages here. Choose the one that fits your concept the best, and just call it something else. If these are really not what you are looking for, may I suggest getting the Nightbane survival guide. There are more skill packages there.

I've been meaning to get the NB Survival Guide! How is that book?

4/5

Everything is golden except the morphus tables and a single talent. While I like that some of them are more toned down versions of the ones we have been getting the the Rifter Books, they went OVERKILL on some of the negatives. Plus the suggestions on how to tone down if your nightbane has gotten too powerful is horrible. Basically if the stats get over +6 from the aspects themselves divide the bonus in half. I would have just used the diminishing returns form multiple physical skills of the same type for bonuses over 4 or 5; but with this the suggested rules, you get a 7, you are stick with a 3... doesn't make much sense really. Plus the morphus aspects seem to be slanted with favoritism. Apparently the writer REALLY hates dragon morphuses.

[Shark_Force]

There are a number of skill packages here. Choose the one that fits your concept the best, and just call it something else. If these are really not what you are looking for, may I suggest getting the Nightbane survival guide. There are more skill packages there.

I've been meaning to get the NB Survival Guide! How is that book?

4/5

Everything is golden except the morphus tables and a single talent. While I like that some of them are more toned down versions of the ones we have been getting the the Rifter Books, they went OVERKILL on some of the negatives. Plus the suggestions on how to tone down if your nightbane has gotten too powerful is horrible. Basically if the stats get over +6 from the aspects themselves divide the bonus in half. I would have just used the diminishing returns form multiple physical skills of the same type for bonuses over 4 or 5; but with this the suggested rules, you get a 7, you are stick with a 3... doesn't make much sense really. Plus the morphus aspects seem to be slanted with favoritism. Apparently the writer REALLY hates dragon morphuses.

actually, as i read it you reduce the stuff that is *over* 6 by half. so if you would officially get, say, +9 in bonuses, you have the +6, take the additional +3, divide it by 2 (getting 1, drop fractions), and come up with a bonus of +7.

now then, back to the base problem. i've gotten unlazy and decided to take a look at the problem directly by opening a book. so, you want to make a 'goth' type kid? what skills would you like? the basic skill package gives you one 'domestic' skill of choice (nightbane doesn't have the full palladium skill list, so you're a bit limited here, but it could also include things like gardening, etc), can choose one technical skill (this would include all the 'lore' type skills, among other things... so put in a lore skill for poetry/literature and you're good to go).

the nightbane survival guide will include some skills you might like, but does not really have the 'full' list of skills. the rifts Game Master Guide is the book that has the most complete list that i am aware of, but here are some suggestions for what skills you may wish to include from there as house rules (or you could buy the book, but unless you play rifts it's not likely to be useful enough to warrant buying for just the skills section)

communications: performing. technically, this is communications. but given that it has pretty much nothing whatever to do with laser communications, scrambling radios, or surveillance... it was probably put into the category while looking only at the category name, and should probably be domestic or technical.
domestic: gardening, floral arrangement, poetry (technically in GMG it's only haiku) edit: also wardrobe & grooming.
technical: art, calligraphy, history, mythology, research, writing, tons of lore skills (ie lore: psionics, lore: magic, lore: religion, etc... just make up your own categories).

obviously, this isn't really enough information for you to make the entire thing work on it's own. i mean, you don't have skill %, skill descriptions, or increase/level.

what i intend that as is a guide for you to see where to put the skills you wish are in the game, so that you can simply add them to your home games. i expect this will get you much closer to what you want than anything else, because with a regular nightbane you are able to choose technical and domestic skills. since the two main areas you will find the skills you want are technical and domestic, and every single type of nightbane afaict has access to those skill categories in their entirety (barring inappropriate skills, like lore: dreamtime from rifts australia for example), that should be all you really strictly speaking need (that said, nightbane survival guide is just a handy book in general, and if you like nightbane i don't think you'll regret buying it regardless)

[Mad Cow Milk]

actually, as i read it you reduce the stuff that is *over* 6 by half. so if you would officially get, say, +9 in bonuses, you have the +6, take the additional +3, divide it by 2 (getting 1, drop fractions), and come up with a bonus of +7.

I would think so, but not by the example given.

"Thus, if the character has P.S. attribute bonuses that add up to 9, divide by half. Half is +4 1/2 - rounded up to +5."

[Shark_Force]

That also seems wierd to have a zero base for combat skills that are not martial arts.Most people know at least that you hold teh gun,you aim it at your target,pull the trigger.Or a sword lets say,you know you hold it,and you can hack,slash,and stab with it and know of (a not very skilled) way to do such things,but they still know the basics of how.Which if they have no base means they've never even seen a weapon before.Also some weapons explain how to use them just by how they're made.

Also I really don't intend on buying heroes unlimited for one section.Superheroes arn't my thing.Especially since most of them have really dumb outfits.I mean why the idiotic looking tights?Hell I'd just wear a trenchcoat,a dominoe mask,some gloves and something with my logo.

having a WP gives you a bonus to use the weapon. not having a WP means you get no bonus. thus, not having the skill is the base line, having the skill adds a bonus, and it is functionally the same as assigning a penalty to those who don't have the skill and having no bonus for those who do (well, except that your bonus for having the skill improves with experience in palladium, but you get the point). modern weapons (ie guns) work a little bit differently, because it depends whether you're shooting single shot, burst, wild, etc. but there is still a difference in skill between those who have the WP and those who don't (iirc, at the time of nightbane the bonus would be +3 for aimed, +1 burst, +0 wild if proficient, or +0 aimed, and firing any type of burst is automatically considered wild and is at a -6 penalty)

also, not all superheroes in HU2 have dumb outfits, but that is beside the point.

also, you haven't specifically solicited suggestions for your concern about percentage-based skills being unreliable at less than 65% (which i agree with completely), but i figured i'd throw a possible house rule to consider your way. for the record, i have never even done a thought experiment with these rules, let alone playtested them.

the basic premise is that people should be allowed to specialise in certain aspects of a skill. some amount of the skill will be basic and universal, but it should be possible to have a character who is really good at fixing motorbikes, for example, but not very good with cars. a side effect of my system is that someone can be much better at one specific aspect of a skill, which may put it into the reliable area you're looking for.

the basic premise is that instead of bonus to the entire skill, you can spend some of your skill on specialising. each skill can be broken down a nearly infinite number of ways, i'm sure, but in general it should be up to the GM to decide what is an acceptable specialisation. a fairly even split specialisation should be worth double the number of points, with extremely rare situations potentially being worth more, at the GM's discretion. in general, only some small portion of the starting skill (i'm suggesting 25% of it's numeric starting value) should be available to be converted to specialisation (some of the knowledge required is the same), and at least 1% of the per level increase should go into the base skill. any starting bonus from OCC or IQ can be applied fully to a specialisation.

so, for example, let's suppose for the sake of argument the starting point for automotive mechanics is 40% and you have an OCC that grants +5% to mechanical skills. you want to make someone who's good at tinkering with motorbikes, but not so good with cars. 25% of the 40% starting value of automotive mechanics is 10%, so that's the most from the base value that can be assigned to specialisation, and the GM rules that motorbikes are not specific enough to yield a larger bonus. so the base automotive mechanics value is now 30%, and you have 10% available to assign to specialisations (if you want, you don't have to specialise). this will give you 50% in motorcycles and 30% in automobiles of other types. you could then specialise further, because you have that 5% OCC bonus (assuming you didn't take it as a secondary skill), so you could either make it 35% in general and 55% for motorbikes, or 30% in general and 60% for motorbikes.

other possible 'specialisations' could include working with penalties (for example, you could 'specialise' in rush jobs). in this case, the specialisation should be counted as a bonus, not as base skill, which means you can exceed the 98% cap (which also means that people with capped skills can actually still progress, by choosing stuff that reduces penalties).

as i said, this is not playtested, nor have i even tested these rules by thought experiment. but it should allow for skills to get into the more reliable region hopefully. whether you use it or not is up to you.

[Shark_Force]

Also will people stop mentioning page f*cking 48.Sure it does not really help because all the skills I personally would have get the least amount of love from teh creators.Thought is a more deadly weapon than any gun or claw.Will I fight yes?But that's not my emphasis in any game.

I think a large part of the problem then, is that the default nightbane setting isn't necessarly right for you. The fundamental assumption is that Nightbane are soldigers drafted into the larger war rather they like it or not. It's explcitly designed to force them into combat roles. This is a feature, not a bug.

but most modern horror rpgs have a thing about some sort of secret war & they assume the PCs will take sides in it & they usualy still give you choices for being stuff that isnt just frontline wariors. that choice is a feature. how is leaving that feature out a feature?

how is the basic nightbane skill package a warrior? no hand to hand skills or WP skills unless you choose them, you don't even have to have any physical skills.

i could easily build someone with no combat capabilities apart from what the morphus brings.

all you need to do is recognise that if a skill doesn't exist, and you want to choose it, you just add it to the game. there's no poetry writing skill? make one! this isn't a CRPG, it's pen and paper, and the reason you have a GM instead of a computer governing everything is so that you can add, remove, or change whatever your group wants.

from what i'm looking at, the basic skill packages include two warrior types (one formally trained, one trained in the school of hard knocks), and two non-warrior types (one trained as a more scholarly type, the other as just a normal person who could have almost any job imaginable). that's 50% of the skill packages that fit your desired outline of "not a warrior"

each skill package is intended to give you a wide variety of possible specific things to represent. that's what the RCC related skills are for in each case; decide what kind of character you want to make, and then choose appropriate skills for it. you tend to get 5-7 pre-chosen skills, and 12-16 skills that can be chosen from a wide variety of categories. that should be enough to give you a pretty wide set of options.

[Shark_Force]

ummm... what combat options does the basic nightbane skill package force you to take? either we're looking at different things, or you are reading it wrong. the RCC skills are forced. for the related skills, you choose up to a certain number of skills from the list of categories. none of the RCC skills for nocturne-trained or basic skill package are combat-related. and they certainly aren't going to run out of non-combat skills with all the other options they have.

(also, you wanted a non-combat option. of course it's weaker, it's a non-combatant. it's strength is that it gets to actually choose more skills than the others, which get fewer RCC related. and nocturne, one of the non-combatant options, gets more skill choices than any other nightbane package)

[Nekira Sudacne]

Also will people stop mentioning page f*cking 48.Sure it does not really help because all the skills I personally would have get the least amount of love from teh creators.Thought is a more deadly weapon than any gun or claw.Will I fight yes?But that's not my emphasis in any game.

I think a large part of the problem then, is that the default nightbane setting isn't necessarly right for you. The fundamental assumption is that Nightbane are soldigers drafted into the larger war rather they like it or not. It's explcitly designed to force them into combat roles. This is a feature, not a bug.

but most modern horror rpgs have a thing about some sort of secret war & they assume the PCs will take sides in it & they usualy still give you choices for being stuff that isnt just frontline wariors. that choice is a feature. how is leaving that feature out a feature?

Those other RPG's generally assume there are more roles than being on the Frontline. Nightbane simply chooses to regulate all those roles to NPC's to leave the Party to be adventurers.

I never said it was a good thing, I'm simply identifying the source of the problems. the "feature" is simplification. For some people this is good, and having fewer options makes the game quicker and easier for them.

For those who enjoy more complexity and options, then of course it's not going to be much help. But not all RPG's need to be all things.

[Warwolf]

Also will people stop mentioning page f*cking 48.Sure it does not really help because all the skills I personally would have get the least amount of love from teh creators.Thought is a more deadly weapon than any gun or claw.Will I fight yes?But that's not my emphasis in any game.

I think a large part of the problem then, is that the default nightbane setting isn't necessarly right for you. The fundamental assumption is that Nightbane are soldigers drafted into the larger war rather they like it or not. It's explcitly designed to force them into combat roles. This is a feature, not a bug.

but most modern horror rpgs have a thing about some sort of secret war & they assume the PCs will take sides in it & they usualy still give you choices for being stuff that isnt just frontline wariors. that choice is a feature. how is leaving that feature out a feature?

Those other RPG's generally assume there are more roles than being on the Frontline. Nightbane simply chooses to regulate all those roles to NPC's to leave the Party to be adventurers.

I never said it was a good thing, I'm simply identifying the source of the problems. the "feature" is simplification. For some people this is good, and having fewer options makes the game quicker and easier for them.

For those who enjoy more complexity and options, then of course it's not going to be much help. But not all RPG's need to be all things.

I don't agree that players are forced into any hard-core combat roles by default. You could just as easily run a whole campaign of exploring the Astral Plane or unearthing hidden treasures from the deep wastes of the Nightlands. You could go back to pre-Dark Day times and run political intrigue between the handful of Nightbane and other supernatural beings. There are any number of things a creative GM can do with the Nightbane setting rather than just throw the players headlong into the War of Light and Dark.

Now, is that a central facet of the setting? Sure. Is it the only facet? By no means.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Well of course you can Warwolf! That's what all the Other skills you get are for!

But the point still stands that every package comes with a HtH skill and at least two or three skills that are useful to a soldiger. But just because you have a fighters skills dosn't mean you have to be a fighter. Thanks for clarifying my point.

[Shark_Force]

Well of course you can Warwolf! That's what all the Other skills you get are for!

But the point still stands that every package comes with a HtH skill and at least two or three skills that are useful to a soldiger. But just because you have a fighters skills dosn't mean you have to be a fighter. Thanks for clarifying my point.

no they don't. neither the basic nightbane package or the nocturne package come with HtH of any sort.

both *do* come with skills that are useful to soldiers, but then again, that describes pretty much any skill you could name. if nothing else, they're pretty much guaranteed to come with language skills, and i'm sure any soldier will agree that being able to understand the language is important for their job.


or are you talking about only the ones in NSG?

[Warwolf]

Well of course you can Warwolf! That's what all the Other skills you get are for!

But the point still stands that every package comes with a HtH skill and at least two or three skills that are useful to a soldiger. But just because you have a fighters skills dosn't mean you have to be a fighter. Thanks for clarifying my point.

no they don't. neither the basic nightbane package or the nocturne package come with HtH of any sort.

both *do* come with skills that are useful to soldiers, but then again, that describes pretty much any skill you could name. if nothing else, they're pretty much guaranteed to come with language skills, and i'm sure any soldier will agree that being able to understand the language is important for their job.


or are you talking about only the ones in NSG?

I think she may be referring to the natural HtH ability of the Nightbane... maybe... possibly...

[TechnoGothic]

She is talking about the NB-SG of course.
The NB mainbook Does Not assume your a soldier in the war by default. The Basic NB Package is the assumption Package. Where your a Normal Personal (no learned HtH skills usually, unless you select it), where your Fascade is not meant for combat. However the Innate Martial Arts to the Morphus is where Everyone shines no matter what.
The NB-SG for some (dumb) reason assumes Every package has HtH Basic or better while in Fascade Form. I repeat this is dumb. With all Nightbane possessing Innate Martial Arts in their Morphus Form, why would so many people go out and learn Formal Training in HtH ? Most would not. I can see Solsiers, NB Resistance Fighters having HtH for the Fascade, but NOT for the rest of the Packages.
It was uncalled for and Muchkins the game's default even more. I mean out of the numberous Players I have run NB with, None selected HtH for their Fascade unless their concept was Soldier, Police, Agents, types before the Becoming. Everyone else just used the Innate Martial Arts of the Morphus Form for what it was created for.

[Mad Cow Milk]

She is talking about the NB-SG of course.
The NB mainbook Does Not assume your a soldier in the war by default. The Basic NB Package is the assumption Package. Where your a Normal Personal (no learned HtH skills usually, unless you select it), where your Fascade is not meant for combat. However the Innate Martial Arts to the Morphus is where Everyone shines no matter what.
The NB-SG for some (dumb) reason assumes Every package has HtH Basic or better while in Fascade Form. I repeat this is dumb. With all Nightbane possessing Innate Martial Arts in their Morphus Form, why would so many people go out and learn Formal Training in HtH ? Most would not. I can see Solsiers, NB Resistance Fighters having HtH for the Fascade, but NOT for the rest of the Packages.
It was uncalled for and Muchkins the game's default even more. I mean out of the numberous Players I have run NB with, None selected HtH for their Fascade unless their concept was Soldier, Police, Agents, types before the Becoming. Everyone else just used the Innate Martial Arts of the Morphus Form for what it was created for.

Also, almost all of them are restricted from acrobatics... ??? Curious.

[TechnoGothic]

Yeah we cant have Skills which give a PP bonus available to people can we.
BUT everyone for some reason is a Deadly in HtH fighting for no reason in Fascade form now ??
I actual know more people trained in Acrobatics or Gymastics than people with Learned HtH Fighting skills of any kind. The Ones I know with actual HtH skills are Martial Arts users, Military, or Cops. A Few Boxers and Wrestlers too...but those two skills are not HtH Skills for some reason.

[TechnoGothic]

necro-rise-post.

[Nekira Sudacne]

necro-rise-post.

It's generally adviseable to say why your necroing a post, otherwise it's just annoying.