Would you let a Crazy remove the knobs?

[Killer Cyborg]

That is why I like crazys to have knobs sticking out of their heads. It is a defining trait of a crazy. A crazy as an NPC, your players know what they are talking to/dealing with. A player as a crazy is treated/looked at differently than a vagabon without having to prove him/herself.

I'd just like to point out, that the defining trait of a crazy is his insanity. In fact it's so much so that they are called "crazies" not "knobbies" or "cannies"...but crazies.

Good point.

[rat_bastard]

Another important question about the knobs...
if you twist them do they change the insanity the crazy is suffering from?

[Reddenedone]

It became canon after the fact.
The rules can sometimes decide (stupidly or not) to imitate art.
The art can sometimes imitate the rules.
But there isn't much connection between the two.
Much of the artwork shows stuff that clearly does not work within the rules, and vice versa.

The bold statement seems to contradict your previous statement in the same paragraph. If the rules sometimes imitate art and the art imitates rules sometimes, then there is a connection that is mor than just casual.

But you make my point, that the art can be used to decipher what is intended. If this was not the case, why would pally feel it neccesary to rationalize the artwork? If the art was completely separate, there would be no point in commenting on the art other than its artistic value.

Take this into consideration. Lets say before the hairless psi stalker bit came out, and i had said the art depicts them hairless, you would have said the art is irrelevant and they are not neccesarily hairless. You would have been shown wrong when later it was said they were hairless.

The question then is, were they always hairless or did they only become so after explicitly stating so in fact. If they always were, then I am right and art is an indicator of rules and if they were only made hairless after the explicit wording, I am still right because the decision was made as a result of the art or at least inspired by it.

A further example is this. Imagine GlitterBoys were not mentioned as having any particular color anywhere. If we were to argue about permissible colors, you argue art would play no role in that discussion? Art in that case, would be inextricably tied to the gaming reality, wouldn't it?

Your point is quite valid however in this particular instance the art can not be looked to as the indicator as the art is older than the rules so the written rules take precedence.

rat_bastard
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:35 pm Post subject:
Another important question about the knobs...
if you twist them do they change the insanity the crazy is suffering from?

NO the twisting of the knobs does not do any thing except possibly give the poor guy a really bad head ache. Although i can picture a crazy that thinks his powers are turned on that way This one goes to eleven. Most other people's go to ten but mine, mine goes to eleven!

oooOOOOOoooo Where can I get an upgrade!?!


Thank you for that Sir Y.

[rat_bastard]

there was a villian/anti-hero in judge dread that had a head implant with a gauge that showed his general mood...

it wold be interesting if such a thing could be worked out by a crazy.

[Killer Cyborg]

It became canon after the fact.
The rules can sometimes decide (stupidly or not) to imitate art.
The art can sometimes imitate the rules.
But there isn't much connection between the two.
Much of the artwork shows stuff that clearly does not work within the rules, and vice versa.

The bold statement seems to contradict ur previous statement in teh same paragraph. If the rules sometimes imitate art and teh art imitates rules sometimes, then there is a connection that is mor than just casual.

A broken clock is right twice a day. Does that mean that there is any significant relation ship between the actual time and what the clock says?
No.

The fact that sometimes the rules and the art agree does not, in any way, mean that you can actually use one to predict the other.

Take this into consideration. Lets say before the hairless psi stalker bit came out, and i had said the art depicts them hairless, you would have said the art is irelevant and they are not neccesarily hairless. You would have been shown wrong when later it was said they were hairless.

No, I wouldn't.
I would have been right, because when I said it it was true.
When the rules were later changed, then I would be wrong if I continuted to claim that not all psi-stalkers were hairless... but I would only be wrong because I was contradicting the rules, not the artwork.

[Library Ogre]

A broken clock is right twice a day.

Unless, of course, it displays the time through LEDs.

BTW, I'm looking at page 114 of VK right now, and it shows Meetal the Butcher and Vyurr Kly the Hunter, the two psi-stalkers in the Rangers. Both are cue-balls in the 6th printing.

I still maintain that the MOM conversion without cans is simply more expensive and perhaps rarer, than the one with cans.

[The Galactus Kid]

Its canon. I would let them do it.

[Reddenedone]

On a slightly different note...

If a crazy, who fully believed that the knobs gave him his powers, were to loose one in a fight, would he proceed to believe that he has lost his powers as well? Or had it diminished from the lost can? What if he assigned his powers to each one....


"AAARrrgggg. I can't lift this blasted thing. That must have been the knob that gave me my superior strength. What will I do, I need a new knob right away! I don't care if we don't have the money to pay for that, I NEEEEEEED it! By the way, Amos, will you carry this for me?"

[Library Ogre]

I still maintain that the MOM conversion without cans is simply more expensive and perhaps rarer, than the one with cans.

Your game, your world, your rules, etc etc etc.

But that's certainly not what the most current generation of Rifts books are presenting to the world.

Yes, but it's not contradicted, either.

A group of technicians had technicians had discovered a pre-Rifts protoype technology that was archaic comparted {sic} to the later, redined M.O.M. process. Not knowing any other way at the time, they created a army of fearless, augmented crazy men to defend the community that created them. ... Consequently, when the later, perfected M.O.M. conversion procedure was rediscovered, and tiny implant marker studs could be buried in the scalp that were barely noticeable, it ruined the myth and image of the Crazy.

That's on page 54, first and second column. Now, it doesn't outright state that the perfected technology is more expensive, but, generally, a more minaturized product will be.

[Nekira Sudacne]

On a slightly different note...

If a crazy, who fully believed that the knobs gave him his powers, were to loose one in a fight, would he proceed to believe that he has lost his powers as well? Or had it diminished from the lost can? What if he assigned his powers to each one....


"AAARrrgggg. I can't lift this blasted thing. That must have been the knob that gave me my superior strength. What will I do, I need a new knob right away! I don't care if we don't have the money to pay for that, I NEEEEEEED it! By the way, Amos, will you carry this for me?"

depends on the person, that's like all inanities, individual.

[Library Ogre]

It also implies that the first group of archaic crazies were limited to one community, and that the later 'perfected' M.O.M warriors are the ones available to the wider Americas.

No, it doesn't. The first ones were the ones who made the myth, and they were the ones whose powers with in demand.

"Consequently, when the later, perfected M.O.M. conversion procedure was rediscovered, and tiny implant marker studs could be buried in the scalp that were barely noticeable, it ruined the myth and image of the Crazy."

This states that, by the time the marker stud process was rediscovered, the myth and image of the Crazy was already well-entrenched... something that wouldn't happen if people knew that any random person might suddenly flip out and kill people because the implants in his head made him nuts.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It also implies that the first group of archaic crazies were limited to one community, and that the later 'perfected' M.O.M warriors are the ones available to the wider Americas.

No, it doesn't. The first ones were the ones who made the myth, and they were the ones whose powers with in demand.

"Consequently, when the later, perfected M.O.M. conversion procedure was rediscovered, and tiny implant marker studs could be buried in the scalp that were barely noticeable, it ruined the myth and image of the Crazy."

This states that, by the time the marker stud process was rediscovered, the myth and image of the Crazy was already well-entrenched... something that wouldn't happen if people knew that any random person might suddenly flip out and kill people because the implants in his head made him nuts.

but don't forget--not everyone will necessarily want to be a CRAZY, they just want power, and Crazy is one way to get it.

remember, they are quite sane BEFORE they get the implants.some people will LIKE no one knowing what they are.

[Library Ogre]

but don't forget--not everyone will necessarily want to be a CRAZY, they just want power, and Crazy is one way to get it.

remember, they are quite sane BEFORE they get the implants.some people will LIKE no one knowing what they are.

I agree. The argument for why they WANT rods is not entirely convincing... they wat rods because they mark them as Crazies and that makes them cool and powerful. It's far from a universal want amongst people who choose to be crazies, and those who don't choose to be crazies aren't going to get to pick which conversion they get.

However, when you factor in my economic argument (the process with the rods is cheaper and easier), then you get a real argument why the rods are so much more common now that the marker-stud process is known. As I said when I first presented it, if I have a choice between rods and a laser pistol, and marker studs and knife, I'm probably going to go with the rods and the laser pistol... because while the rods are a whole lot more noticeable, the laser pistol increases my survivability a whole lot more.

[Killer Cyborg]

I still maintain that the MOM conversion without cans is simply more expensive and perhaps rarer, than the one with cans.

That would only make sense.
Just like a blackpowder rifle is going to be cheaper than an AR-15.

[Killer Cyborg]

I still maintain that the MOM conversion without cans is simply more expensive and perhaps rarer, than the one with cans.

That would only make sense.
Just like a blackpowder rifle is going to be cheaper than an AR-15.

This is a point which is ceasing to be true. These days, a good blackpowder rifle can easily run you more than an African AK-47, for example; antiquated technology quickly becomes antique.

Sure, but we're talking about stuff intended for use, not the mantlepiece.
Some collector might pay a lot for some pre-rifts MOM implants to put on display somewhere, but probably not for putting in his head.

[shadrak]

Yep....antiques are only valuable because you don't have to use them...you either use them for pleasure or display them.

[dark brandon]

that being said, doesnt it say the implants are very popular? so the art does have some sense of reality. Its not as if no crazy wears em, i believe the implication is many (if not most) have em.

They are, but they are not nessissary (and I would think even more expencive). That's for the player to decide, not the GM, unless he has something special planned.

I believe it says "most", so that's anywhere from 51% up. Personally, I say about 60% get the additional implant. So 4 out of every 10 crazies you've ever met, you didn't know they were crazy.

He's getting his penalties for getting super-power. He'll slowly go insaine with Game mechanics to back that up.

[Subjugator]

I still maintain that the MOM conversion without cans is simply more expensive and perhaps rarer, than the one with cans.

That would only make sense.
Just like a blackpowder rifle is going to be cheaper than an AR-15.

This is a point which is ceasing to be true. These days, a good blackpowder rifle can easily run you more than an African AK-47, for example; antiquated technology quickly becomes antique.

Sure, but we're talking about stuff intended for use, not the mantlepiece.
Some collector might pay a lot for some pre-rifts MOM implants to put on display somewhere, but probably not for putting in his head.

A nice black powder rifle (that is brand new) can cost significantly more than a firearm that is of more modern design. This is not an old gun, but more an old design on a new gun...and they can cost a lot.

/Sub

[shadrak]

What would probably been a better example was an AK-47 and an AK-74.

The whole point is, if you were to sell a black powder long arm and an M-4 carbine for the purpose of combat, the M-4 would be far more expensive because it is better at achieving its purpose.

Or, if you wanted to sell a Commodore computer or a brand new Dell Laptop, for the purpose of data processing (NOT AS A COLLECTABLE!-you don't put a collectable in your head), the Laptop would be more expensive.

[Subjugator]

What would probably been a better example was an AK-47 and an AK-74.

The whole point is, if you were to sell a black powder long arm and an M-4 carbine for the purpose of combat, the M-4 would be far more expensive because it is better at achieving its purpose.

Or, if you wanted to sell a Commodore computer or a brand new Dell Laptop, for the purpose of data processing (NOT AS A COLLECTABLE!-you don't put a collectable in your head), the Laptop would be more expensive.

Defining its purpose specifically to combat, rather than to non-collectable use - is a bit strange. I'd define it as 'for use' and 'for collectability'.

Yes - a collectable weapon may in fact cost more than a regular one, but a new and usable weapon that is of an old design may still cost more than a new and usable weapon of new design.

An example...

You can buy a very nice and modern brand new hunting rifle with a nice scope for around $5,000.

You can buy a very nice and OLD design but new product hunting rifle without a scope for around $75,000.

Both of these are brand new weapons, and yet one costs FAR more than the other.

The first one could be say...a .458 Lott, or a .338 big game rifle.

The second one - that's easy - ANY new .600NE, 4 bore, 6 bore, or 8 bore rifle. Very old designs. VERY expensive to buy.

So - the old style MOM implants may require more attention to make and the new ones may require less.

Interestingly, they mentioned in Mindwerks that the problem could be related to miniaturization. If that's the case, I wonder if the smaller implants should be less likely to cause insanity.

/Sub

[shadrak]

Once again, that is due to a perception of better performance by the older peice as well as its value as a collectable and its limited availability. I think the commadore/dell example is a more clear example.

[shadrak]

So I guess, if you feel that the knobs are popular, they shouldn't be that much cheaper than more subtle implants.

[Subjugator]

Once again, that is due to a perception of better performance by the older peice as well as its value as a collectable and its limited availability. I think the commadore/dell example is a more clear example.

Again - in my examples, both rifles are brand new and intended for use - NOT as collectables.

They're both big game rifles intended to hunt large animals in Africa. They are NOT intended as collectable items, but as items to be used and fired on a regular basis.

/Sub

[shadrak]

Yes, and I noted two other factors: a perception of being more capable and comparable rareness. And regardless of whether you intend to use a large bore rifle for hunting or hanging on the wall, there is an intrinsic value as a collectable (in part, due to the rareness).

[Library Ogre]

In neither case (rods vs. marker studs) am I talking about antiques, though. I'm talking about new, production-line materials. Both achieve the same bonuses, the same goals... just one of them is much smaller.

Buy 2 new computers, complete with mouse, monitor, and keyboard. 80 gig hard drive, 1 gig RAM, 2 gig processor. One is a desktop (rods), one is a laptop (marker studs). The marker studs one is going to be more expensive because there will be more minaturization involved in making it. It's going to be more difficult/expensive to service, because there will be more specialization needed to service it. It with rods, as with the desktop, you can open up the case and acces fairly easily; I've done it with my desktop hundreds of times. I've got a desktop in arm's reach which is open. With a laptop, it's much more difficult, and it will require at least minor surgery with marker studs.

That's where the expense comes from. Not from the black powder vs. AR-15. But from two top-of-the-line computers, one being a heck of alot smaller than the other.

[Thinyser]

Strange as this may seem, I think the Crazy is one of only a handful of RPG character classes that gets less powerful as they go up in levels.

I wouldn't say less powerfull but certainly less playable/less stealthy, ie more noticable.

[dark brandon]

Strange as this may seem, I think the Crazy is one of only a handful of RPG character classes that gets less powerful as they go up in levels.

I wouldn't say less powerfull but certainly less playable/less stealthy, ie more noticable.

They could but that doesn't mean they will. I've gone through the book a couple of times during discussions similar to these and pulled out a 15th level crazy who was still very playable. Their playability relies on the luck of the dice as well as a GM more than anything.

[Subjugator]

Yes, and I noted two other factors: a perception of being more capable and comparable rareness. And regardless of whether you intend to use a large bore rifle for hunting or hanging on the wall, there is an intrinsic value as a collectable (in part, due to the rareness).

The only rarity for big bore rifles is the fact that more people don't purchase them. The only reason it's more difficult to get a .600NE or a 4 bore than a .458 Lott or a .338 is because of the paperwork and the $5.00 transfer tax for them, but otherwise they're like any other custom rifle (which, by the way - the $5,000 hunting rifle is also custom and is therefore equally rare).

The greater capability is definitely a factor...for the rifles.

That said; there is no difference in the case of MOM implants as far as efficacy goes. One set of implants is as good as the other...so that cannot be a factor in the increased price (unless there is the IMPRESSION that some are more effective than others).

So - old technology is not necessarily less expensive than new technology, and not just because of its collectability, but because some might prefer it for other reasons. Similarly, new technology may not cost more than old, because it may be cheaper to produce, require fewer resources, be easier to make, or require cheaper resources to produce it.

/Sub

[shadrak]

So - old technology is not necessarily less expensive than new technology, and not just because of its collectability, but because some might prefer it for other reasons. Similarly, new technology may not cost more than old, because it may be cheaper to produce, require fewer resources, be easier to make, or require cheaper resources to produce it.

Right you are! My only point has been that a GM, if he wants knobs, could justify making the subtle implants more expensive.

Then again...I hate knobs, so I it is a moot point for me...knobs only exist if the character wants them or if I want to make an NPC recognizable as a crazy.

[Subjugator]

In neither case (rods vs. marker studs) am I talking about antiques, though. I'm talking about new, production-line materials. Both achieve the same bonuses, the same goals... just one of them is much smaller.

Buy 2 new computers, complete with mouse, monitor, and keyboard. 80 gig hard drive, 1 gig RAM, 2 gig processor. One is a desktop (rods), one is a laptop (marker studs). The marker studs one is going to be more expensive because there will be more minaturization involved in making it. It's going to be more difficult/expensive to service, because there will be more specialization needed to service it. It with rods, as with the desktop, you can open up the case and acces fairly easily; I've done it with my desktop hundreds of times. I've got a desktop in arm's reach which is open. With a laptop, it's much more difficult, and it will require at least minor surgery with marker studs.

That's where the expense comes from. Not from the black powder vs. AR-15. But from two top-of-the-line computers, one being a heck of alot smaller than the other.

In no case was I proposing something that was antiquated. I was speaking of brand new equipment, and in my case, the old designs cost more.

As I explained in a previous post (that came after your reply - I'm not ragging on you, just pointing you back a little bit), new technology may in fact be both superior and cheaper than old technology. Computers are a FINE example.

Old technology on computers - here's a *FINE* example:

In 1989, a 386 machine had the following stats:

20mhz 386 processor (Intel)
2mb RAM (max - 16mb)
Cache memory (actually listed in the ad - quantity isn't given...assumed to be 256KB).
256K color VGA graphics
Micro-Channel bus

Monitor and mouse not included.

This fine and amazingly fast machine was sold for a a piddling $8499, plus tax.


These days you can get a computer that is quite literally hundreds of times more powerful for a twentieth of the price...and it will come with a monitor, a keyboard, a mouse, and a more modern OS. It'll also likely have a modem and a network card to boot, in addition to weighing less, having better graphics capability, and requiring less power.

Old technology is cheap. New technology CAN be cheaper.

These days, it'd be difficult to make the machine described there. It could be done, but it'd require substantial effort to retool to put it together.

/Sub

[shadrak]

His point is that that old computer, today, couldn't be marketed.

You would have to pay someone else to take that 386 off of your hands.

What he is saying is that if you went to a garage sale and a guy was selling his 386 and a computer he bought last year, last years model would cost more.

And, if you made a 386 today, you would have to sell much cheaper than Dell's most recent laptop if you wanted to find a buyer.

[Subjugator]

In neither case (rods vs. marker studs) am I talking about antiques, though. I'm talking about new, production-line materials. Both achieve the same bonuses, the same goals... just one of them is much smaller.

Buy 2 new computers, complete with mouse, monitor, and keyboard. 80 gig hard drive, 1 gig RAM, 2 gig processor. One is a desktop (rods), one is a laptop (marker studs). The marker studs one is going to be more expensive because there will be more minaturization involved in making it. It's going to be more difficult/expensive to service, because there will be more specialization needed to service it. It with rods, as with the desktop, you can open up the case and acces fairly easily; I've done it with my desktop hundreds of times. I've got a desktop in arm's reach which is open. With a laptop, it's much more difficult, and it will require at least minor surgery with marker studs.

That's where the expense comes from. Not from the black powder vs. AR-15. But from two top-of-the-line computers, one being a heck of alot smaller than the other.

The knobs are not new technology. They're OLD technology. The small ones are new technology.

I'd make it cheaper to get the small ones, because it requires less material, less intrusion during the surgery (and therefore lower risk), and the use of newer manufacturing techniques which are likely less expensive.

/Sub

[Thinyser]

Strange as this may seem, I think the Crazy is one of only a handful of RPG character classes that gets less powerful as they go up in levels.

I wouldn't say less powerfull but certainly less playable/less stealthy, ie more noticable.

They could but that doesn't mean they will. I've gone through the book a couple of times during discussions similar to these and pulled out a 15th level crazy who was still very playable. Their playability relies on the luck of the dice as well as a GM more than anything.

Though I would find that same crazy to be more playable at lower levels than at those higher "crazy as a pet raccoon" levels.

They are still playable but likely they are "less" playable, and certainly "more" noticibly crazy, both due to the fact they have more insanities.

Also they have more abilties (like autododge) as they gain levels that do make them more powerfull.

[Library Ogre]

The knobs are not new technology. They're OLD technology. The small ones are new technology.

Yes, the small ones are the newer technology... but they're also the more minaturized technology, which is going to be more expensive. The two technologies aren't separated by centuries, or even decades. They're separated by years in the post-apocalypse, more likely by months in the Golden Age.

I'd make it cheaper to get the small ones, because it requires less material, less intrusion during the surgery (and therefore lower risk), and the use of newer manufacturing techniques which are likely less expensive.

And I'd make it more expensive to get the small ones because it requires more sophisticated manufacturing and surgical techniques.

[grandmaster z0b]

I'd make it cheaper to get the small ones, because it requires less material, less intrusion during the surgery (and therefore lower risk), and the use of newer manufacturing techniques which are likely less expensive.

And I'd make it more expensive to get the small ones because it requires more sophisticated manufacturing and surgical techniques.

Yeah that's what I'd say, it would also be more difficult and more expensive to get any repair or maintenance for the smaller ones.

[Subjugator]

Yes, the small ones are the newer technology... but they're also the more minaturized technology, which is going to be more expensive. The two technologies aren't separated by centuries, or even decades. They're separated by years in the post-apocalypse, more likely by months in the Golden Age.

Following your logic, that 386, if manufactured as a brand new item today, should cost less than a low end machine that is made today. It wouldn't though. I mean, an Athlon XP 2200 based machine with 128MB of RAM and a 40GB hard drive sells for $99.00 at Fry's on a good sale.

Smaller does not mean more expensive. That's begging the question. Prove that smaller is more expensive before you try and establish it as a proposition. Laptops are not the same idea, because we're talking two sets of modern technology. Let's talk two sets of technology - one that is old and one that is new, and then compare prices of manufacturing.

And I'd make it more expensive to get the small ones because it requires more sophisticated manufacturing and surgical techniques.

You're assuming it requires more sophisticated manufacturing and surgical techniques.

For one thing, the surgical techniques should be EASIER for the smaller ones since they're less invasive and require less manipulation of brain tissue.

For another, the book itself has said that the knobs aren't necessary and has not listed an alternate price for them. As such, that means that the price for the smaller ones remains unchanged.

Furthermore - we're talking technology that is very old (for the big ones). I don't remember if it talks about how old the big ones are, but I'd guess that the big ones around sixty or seventy years old (if not older.

Consider the rate of technology increase in the Rifts world. It'd probably be EASIER to come up with the stuff to make MOM technology small than it would be to make the big ones.

/Sub

[Killer Cyborg]

Consider the rate of technology increase in the Rifts world. It'd probably be EASIER to come up with the stuff to make MOM technology small than it would be to make the big ones.

/Sub

The level of technology on Rifts Earth varies drastically from place to place. Some places it would be easier to put in the new, smaller, higher-tech MOM implants, and some places it would be easier to put in the larger ones. It all depends on the tools, tech level, and skills available to the one performing the surgery.

You do have a point that the books don't list a different cost for different implants, though. And you have made a point (IIRC) with the fact that the older implants seem to be more popular, and popularity dictates price as much as anything.

[Library Ogre]

Following your logic, that 386, if manufactured as a brand new item today, should cost less than a low end machine that is made today. It wouldn't though. I mean, an Athlon XP 2200 based machine with 128MB of RAM and a 40GB hard drive sells for $99.00 at Fry's on a good sale.

I still do not see where you are coming from with this. For Rifts Earth, the two are contemporary technologies. While one has been rediscovered more recently, they're both within the same time frame. One requires far more miniaturization to be effective.

For another, the book itself has said that the knobs aren't necessary and has not listed an alternate price for them. As such, that means that the price for the smaller ones remains unchanged.

You have a point, here. Given Palladium's grasp of economics, it's less than a compelling one, but it is a canonical one.

Furthermore - we're talking technology that is very old (for the big ones). I don't remember if it talks about how old the big ones are, but I'd guess that the big ones around sixty or seventy years old (if not older.

That's irrelevant. The technology for the smaller ones is practically the same age; given the likely length of the Golden Age, I would be willing to bet that the marker studs came out months after the rods. It was just rediscovered slightly later... after the legend had been made by the berodded Crazies.

[Vrykolas2k]

Then again, unwilling crazies would be subject to whichever form of implants the people making them crazies would have. Might even be some sort of sleeper agent {"Manchurian Candidate" stuff meets "Serenity"}.

[rat_bastard]

goddamn ten pages.....

if your gm lets you you can have the nobs or not have the nobs...

thats all you need to know.

[Thinyser]

goddamn ten pages.....

if your gm lets you you can have the nobs or not have the nobs...

thats all you need to know.

And either way his decision is "by the book"

[Library Ogre]

goddamn ten pages.....

if your gm lets you you can have the nobs or not have the nobs...

thats all you need to know.

This post is on my page 3.

Incidentally, I'd never allow a crazy to remove the nobs. Not have them to start with, yes, but remove them? That's a bad idea, even by a crazy's standards.

[Nekira Sudacne]

goddamn ten pages.....

if your gm lets you you can have the nobs or not have the nobs...

thats all you need to know.

This post is on my page 3.

Incidentally, I'd never allow a crazy to remove the nobs. Not have them to start with, yes, but remove them? That's a bad idea, even by a crazy's standards.

Lastly, Last night i had the chance to review the material in mindwerks wherein it states that a crazy can have their implants taken out with no adverse side effects! Their insanities stay but they loose their powers. They can also remove and replace their implants with no side effects! Shocked

Why's that so surprising?

[bathawk]

my opinion is that the knobs are necessary if they are installed as such

in other words a cyber-doc COULD instal the implants without that protruding from the skull but would have to take extra care and also extra cost to do so

if your player has big unsightly knobs protrudng from his skull already, well it's not like he can just take a hacksaw to them, if he wants, let him plunk down a few hundred thousand credit to hae the old ones removed, and more expensive-miniaturized-beneath the skull implants put in

[rat_bastard]

GAHHHHHHHHHH!

[Mech-Viper Prime]

if you look at all the crazies in and out of the many books you will notice the knobs are differents sizes

[Reddenedone]

if you look at all the crazies in and out of the many books you will notice the knobs are differents sizes

The one with the biggest knobs has the most power

[rat_bastard]

if you look at all the crazies in and out of the many books you will notice the knobs are differents sizes

The one with the biggest knobs has the most power

so the crazy with nobbs so big he can't walk is really a powerhouse?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

if you look at all the crazies in and out of the many books you will notice the knobs are differents sizes

The one with the biggest knobs has the most power

so the crazy with nobbs so big he can't walk is really a powerhouse?

yup the crazy with the biggest knobs wins

[rat_bastard]

if you look at all the crazies in and out of the many books you will notice the knobs are differents sizes

The one with the biggest knobs has the most power

so the crazy with nobbs so big he can't walk is really a powerhouse?

yup the crazy with the biggest knobs wins

well you know what they say about crazy's with big knobbs right?