Ninjabunny wrote:This is getting silly guys.
MmmmHmmm.
DhAkael wrote:*listens to sound of rotting horse flesh being flensed off of a very much EX-equine via 3m long peice of braided & toughend cow-hide*
HA! Whipping a dead horse I get it.
![Fool :fool:](./images/smilies/fool.gif)
Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones
Ninjabunny wrote:This is getting silly guys.
DhAkael wrote:*listens to sound of rotting horse flesh being flensed off of a very much EX-equine via 3m long peice of braided & toughend cow-hide*
Vrykolas2k wrote:Could we keep the idiotic semantic arguements to stuff that's actually game-related, please?
It's still a waste of thread, but at least it would cut down on the irrelevancies.
Indeed.Killer Cyborg wrote:I think it's pretty clear that initially, the CS were the bad guys in the Tolkeen war, and by the end of it, both sides were the bad guys.
A very poetic way of putting it, and accurate as well.Akashic Soldier wrote:Once upon a time fear cultivated an army and drove it forward beyond the measure of its sacrifices to stand against the house of wizards.
The house if wizards saw their sky filled with fire and though they stood at the threshold of a thousand door ways their pride closed those doors.
The army of fear marched and in their pride The house of Wizards called into the darkness and the fear of the legions took form and walked the earth.
But the House of Wizards had underestimated the zeal of the legion and their conjuring merely bolstered the resolve of the army and sured their aim. For though driven by fear the legion would never have marched were it conquered by it.
And so though a house of wizards they were but house and though a city of doors they remained locked and in this folley, conquered by pride, broken by their owns hands and vice the house burned and their flags vanished beneath the mud with the corpses of all those sacrificed to pay the price for a fear cultivated within the human spirit for nearly three hundred years...
This is legacy of Tolkeen, listen and heed the warning, no house may stand alone. No pride is bright enough to eclipse fear... and no magic strong enough to conquer sacrifice.
Oh, and the violence of this, along with Tolkeen's demonic allies, ends up perfect fodder to reaffirm everything the CS Propaganda machine has told its citizens about magic and dbees. Reinforcing their desire to wipe out Tolkeen, instead of sending them home scared as the kingdom had hoped.The Sorcerers' Revenge, as it is called, goes off perfectly, with super-charged and power-drunk forces routing the Coalition.
Giant2005 wrote:Does no-one else find it a little disturbing that people are so ready to support Genocide? Not just ready to support it but fully willing to blame the victims for their extinction.
Sure this is just a game but morality is universal - it extends to all mediums.
Roleplaying someone with such a dispassionate view of genocide is fine, actually believing in that sentiment isn't quite so fine.
Akashic Soldier wrote:I think I said this once before but to answer your question Giant and to clear up any misunderstandings.
I support the CS as an organization for a few reasons.
Lets start at the begining... in a time so long ago that the stark black and whites of morality have greyed and faded into history... I talk of course... of the coming of the Rifts!
*Akashic Soldier makes a bold gesture that is followed by a whirlwind journey through the time*
In the begin there was the sin of the fathers, important men now struck nameless--their faces burned from history like so much tissue paper yet their actions set in motion a catastrophe that tore at the very fabric of space-time and gave birth to the first of Rift!
From these Rifts came creatures the likes of which man had only ever dreamed, abominations and devils, and all manner of beastie... then came magic passed like the flame of Prometheus and every bit as all-consuming. Humanity fought, they fought hard, many innocent people died, and countless homes were destroyed. Families wept and for a long time chaos reigned and fear forced the survivors to huddle together while creatures from beyond the world took their land...
*Scenes of commando Floopers using MD rifles to murder fleeing women and children.*
Humanity was decimated.
Our world was all but lost.
Akashic Soldier wrote:Then, from the ashes of man one brave soul had the courage to say "No more!" and take up arms against their oppressors, one soul joined by another and another! This was the new genesis of man! The next generation of humanity! And together, they triumphed. For the first time in many generations man had hope. These were the brave souls who founded the organization that would become the Coalition States. Soldiers fighting to reclaim their world from countless inter-dimensional alien beings, menaces that greedily gulp up their power or preyed on or otherwise exploited them.
*another grand gesture brings us closer to the PA109 and an army of Deadboy's marching like storm troopers*
These are the children of the souls brave enough to rise up and fight for their world. These are humanities legacy. The evolution of man that can retake their world and drive back the enemy. They have already succeeded once with the Naruni and as long as the fires of the human spirits burn they will not fail! This is manifest destiny! What right do these abominations have to take their world from them? What right do they have to surf the cosmic leylines and settle any world and drain it of resources?
What rights do men have to meddle with the leylines to conjure demons or play god or invite nightmares into the dreams of their fellows? To stir the attention of the Old Ones and arouse their ires with such carelessness? Are they not as disruptive to society as any other criminal?
Akashic Soldier wrote:Are the Coalition an evil society? Yes.
Were they always an evil society? No.
Will they always be an evil society? Unlikely.
Akashic Soldier wrote:Right now the Emperor has focused the entirety of the will of the people to driving the war machine that will purge the land of the invaders and threats. Many innocent D-Bee's who are just as stranded as you or I may be on Wormwood will suffer and die but in the grand scale of things much fewer will die than the throngs of humanity who died at the hands of D-Bees. However... if... just if the Coalition is successful and reclaims the earth in the name of the human race and unite the world under a single government. Then all it takes is human sympathies to spark one great cultural revolution and overthrow the military rule for a more peaceful and cooperative approach to inter-dimensional travelers.
In this future I see, a future just one of many, there is a world at peace... a utopia where all men are free and D-Bee's have legal visas like you or I must to travel to other countries. Earth serves as a buffer between dimensions and establishes a Megaversal Law Enforcement that protects other realms from suffering the same way their great ancestors did.
But none of this can happen if the Coalition are not allowed to walk their path and make their errors. Magic and Alien Life are the biggest threats and instigators of injustice in existence. The First allows one man an advantage over another by breaking the very laws of reality and twisting them against him and the latter are the decedents of invaders or peoples that are at the least very different to humanity and may not be relate to human thinking and culture.
This grand victory, this utopia and triumph of the human spirit, this ascension from darkness and realization of our evolutionary potential is why I will do what I can to support the Coalition States and allow them to plunge deep into the darkest places of their souls so they might learn their limits... face themselves... and ultimately, rise from it. Necessary evil is ugly but in a world where time and space lay shattered like broken glass across the landscape and distant hills glow like latticeworks and breed demons and bedlam... let me assure you all, as much as you might hate them, as much as their values sicken you, the Coalition States are very necessary.
And where I'd join them willingly given the chance, that doesn't mean I have to let myself become a monster. Don't let them fool you, every man and woman behind that Deadboy helmet is a person first and a soldier second. They can't help it, its.. in their blood.
Akashic Soldier wrote:The Mechanoids
I'll keep this one simple for now until I see what everyone else says but the Mechaniods are evil, irredeemably so. They are cruel, calculating man-machines bent on destroying and tormenting everything that lies in their path. They are not protecting anything, not even pretending to, they are an expansive invasion force bent on genocide on a massive scale... but most importantly of all... they have no promising culture to speak of. As far as I know when they're not "killing all humans" they're sitting in vats musing over "killing all humans." They have no music, no love, no diversity... they are abomination and as such should be burnt away in the white-hot fires of justice!
Giant2005 wrote:Now change your perception to that of an Amana living in Tolkeen who's only ambition is to keep people alive. Would you say the same statement about the Coalition?
Vrykolas2k wrote:Actually Splynncryth, being Anarchist, likely hasn't engaged in any genocide.
It's not good for business.
Ancient Splugoth Proverb wrote:Your things are now my things by way of my actions.
Akashic Soldier wrote:Vrykolas2k wrote:Actually Splynncryth, being Anarchist, likely hasn't engaged in any genocide.
It's not good for business.
First up, its a carry over joke form another post I made.![]()
Sorry if it seems misplaced.
Secondly, completely eradicating an inferior species and taking their natural resources for yourself is the Splugoth equivalent of a bar mitsva.
And let me assure you... it can be very profitable.
Ancient Splugoth Proverb wrote:Your things are now my things by way of my actions.
DhAkael wrote:-meh- argue how ever much you like.
my campiagn verse, the Coalition as it stands in irredeemable until the Prosseks are DEAD and all their cabinet.
Tolkeen was WRONG thinking in their use of magic but they were not wrong to defend themselves...they just chose a morally untenable way to do so.
Re; America using Fat-man and Littleboy on Japan (who, let us be clear, did NOT follow the Geneva conventions); morally wrong but at the time, expediant and efficient. Just like Tolkeen using daemons. BOTH are destructive forces; full-stop end-of-line. However just like America in ww2, Tolkeen was backed against a wall by an agressive and fanatical agressor.
Only in the case of the Siege of Tolkeen, Tolkeen lost.
Now, as for the CS states; they keep their populace ignorant. They keep their populace (except the elite) hungry and destitute, just on subsistience level ("There's a war on kids. Buckle up and stop complaining, ya got a roof over yer head and yer soylent green dontcha?"), and are more than willing to have "brave loyal patriots" enlist to fight the good fight against the unholy invaders.
Check that; unholy invaders.
MOST of the P.C. playable D-B races are NOT unholy. MAGIC is not unholy. Like anything, individuals may be evil, and the use of technology or powers may be used for evil. Just like the average mook in the CS is not EVIL per-se, but they have been brainwashed to act evil and do evil things by their "glorious and couragous" Emporer.
No ammount of justification or arguing will have me run my campign other than the CS leaders as evil self serving tyrants, willing to see their nation burn for their own glory.
Now, here's the other side of the coin; Lazlo. Golden hope for a new-age?
Sorta.
IF you ignore the fact that Plato, though being a dragon, is kinda, well ... gutless and unwilling to take up the mantle of TRUE leadership, so any decisions tend to be bogged down in beauratic debates and comittees (Like the vote on what to do with the Xiticix), which allow harm to come about through inaction. Ditto their inaction on dealing with Dunscon Jr. or the abuses of magic that Tolkeen were doing during the seige. THAT being said, the ability for human, humanoid and non-human to interact without killing or eating each other and the equal use of magic AND technology is the only way for Terra to drag its self back from the brink. Ignoring or supressing magic & psi, and trying to kill anything NOT hairless monkey will only lead Earth down into the pit of becoming a lifeless, burned out cinder...permanently OR infested with daemonic spawn.
Now here's a thought. The minion war spills into Rifts Terra, The prosseks, refusing any help whatsoever from the "magic using scum" decide to go it alone. They fail and are consumed in their own nuclear hell-storm along with the luaghing daemons, immune to such petty toys via their own unnatural composition, dance on the radioactive graves and drink down the souls of those immolated. THEN they go after Lazlo and Triax and...well you get the gist.
Same if Lazlo doesn't get some powerful allies to deal with the more mundane minions of the devil / deamon armies who DO use tech and are more numerous than the infernals.
The only way it can end in at least a sembelance of victory is if the Prosseks are DELT with, their successors put aside the propaganda, and unite with "the inhuman xeno scum" and fight UNIFIED against the deamon swarms.
But, since no one ever listens anyways, this has just been a waste of 20 minutes of my time. *shrugs*
Dr. Who is sitting on the 'Iron Throne'; all your arguments have been rendered invalid.
Nightmask wrote:Giant2005 wrote:Does no-one else find it a little disturbing that people are so ready to support Genocide? Not just ready to support it but fully willing to blame the victims for their extinction.
Sure this is just a game but morality is universal - it extends to all mediums.
Roleplaying someone with such a dispassionate view of genocide is fine, actually believing in that sentiment isn't quite so fine.
No, you are not alone in finding the vehement defense of the CS's actions as being perfectly acceptable behavior to the point it sounds like an endorsement of that from a real life stance as being more than a little disturbing. There is a lot wrong with arguing in such defense of it that it's hard to not feel that the person is actually endorsing it as acceptable RL behavior.
DhAkael wrote:-meh- argue how ever much you like.
my campiagn verse, the Coalition as it stands in irredeemable until the Prosseks are DEAD and all their cabinet.
Tolkeen was WRONG thinking in their use of magic but they were not wrong to defend themselves...they just chose a morally untenable way to do so.
Re; America using Fat-man and Littleboy on Japan (who, let us be clear, did NOT follow the Geneva conventions); morally wrong but at the time, expediant and efficient. Just like Tolkeen using daemons. BOTH are destructive forces; full-stop end-of-line. However just like America in ww2, Tolkeen was backed against a wall by an agressive and fanatical agressor.
Only in the case of the Siege of Tolkeen, Tolkeen lost.
Now, as for the CS states; they keep their populace ignorant. They keep their populace (except the elite) hungry and destitute, just on subsistience level ("There's a war on kids. Buckle up and stop complaining, ya got a roof over yer head and yer soylent green dontcha?"), and are more than willing to have "brave loyal patriots" enlist to fight the good fight against the unholy invaders.
Check that; unholy invaders.
MOST of the P.C. playable D-B races are NOT unholy. MAGIC is not unholy. Like anything, individuals may be evil, and the use of technology or powers may be used for evil. Just like the average mook in the CS is not EVIL per-se, but they have been brainwashed to act evil and do evil things by their "glorious and couragous" Emporer.
No ammount of justification or arguing will have me run my campign other than the CS leaders as evil self serving tyrants, willing to see their nation burn for their own glory.
Now, here's the other side of the coin; Lazlo. Golden hope for a new-age?
Sorta.
IF you ignore the fact that Plato, though being a dragon, is kinda, well ... gutless and unwilling to take up the mantle of TRUE leadership, so any decisions tend to be bogged down in beauratic debates and comittees (Like the vote on what to do with the Xiticix), which allow harm to come about through inaction. Ditto their inaction on dealing with Dunscon Jr. or the abuses of magic that Tolkeen were doing during the seige. THAT being said, the ability for human, humanoid and non-human to interact without killing or eating each other and the equal use of magic AND technology is the only way for Terra to drag its self back from the brink. Ignoring or supressing magic & psi, and trying to kill anything NOT hairless monkey will only lead Earth down into the pit of becoming a lifeless, burned out cinder...permanently OR infested with daemonic spawn.
Now here's a thought. The minion war spills into Rifts Terra, The prosseks, refusing any help whatsoever from the "magic using scum" decide to go it alone. They fail and are consumed in their own nuclear hell-storm along with the luaghing daemons, immune to such petty toys via their own unnatural composition, dance on the radioactive graves and drink down the souls of those immolated. THEN they go after Lazlo and Triax and...well you get the gist.
Same if Lazlo doesn't get some powerful allies to deal with the more mundane minions of the devil / deamon armies who DO use tech and are more numerous than the infernals.
The only way it can end in at least a sembelance of victory is if the Prosseks are DELT with, their successors put aside the propaganda, and unite with "the inhuman xeno scum" and fight UNIFIED against the deamon swarms.
But, since no one ever listens anyways, this has just been a waste of 20 minutes of my time. *shrugs*
Dr. Who is sitting on the 'Iron Throne'; all your arguments have been rendered invalid.
Ninjabunny wrote:So to sum things up
pepsi mind set, is Tolkeen had what was coming to them, for using D-Bee's and demons.
Lenwen Argues there are no native Americans inside the coalition, though we have no break down of racial groups in the CS to begin with so one can argue they are all white, or all black, or all Hispaniola!
This is getting silly guys.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Nightmask wrote:Giant2005 wrote:Does no-one else find it a little disturbing that people are so ready to support Genocide? Not just ready to support it but fully willing to blame the victims for their extinction.
Sure this is just a game but morality is universal - it extends to all mediums.
Roleplaying someone with such a dispassionate view of genocide is fine, actually believing in that sentiment isn't quite so fine.
No, you are not alone in finding the vehement defense of the CS's actions as being perfectly acceptable behavior to the point it sounds like an endorsement of that from a real life stance as being more than a little disturbing. There is a lot wrong with arguing in such defense of it that it's hard to not feel that the person is actually endorsing it as acceptable RL behavior.
For the record, to both Nightmask and Giant2005, I never said the CS"s actions are 'perfectly acceptable behavior'
I repeatedly..... repeatedly said that both sides conducted horrors during the war. Both sides. Tolkeen and CS.
I'm explaining the 'justification' of the CS in the war and how, Tolkeen lived up to every fear the CS had and the _________ CS's _________ reasons for conducting the war.
Personally. I'd probably live right where I do today. In Upper Michigan. Northern gun. I'd be in a human country that accepts Dbees but not the freaky freaky stuff. If not here. I'd be in New Lazlo, Lazlo or Merc town.
I know the current leadership of the CS is 'evil' but as pointed out by Akashic, you can see their motivations. he did a pretty good write up there. I applaude him.
But I'm not stupid. The leadership of the CS need to change. And it can change. Akashic is right in that "For right now.. we need a leader that can keep humans going and keep expanding to retake our country.. our hemisphere.. our planet.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:AFTER we've retaken what we lost, we can down grade the military and re-embrace humanity. But right 'now' humanity even with the CS and the NGR are holding on by a thread.
And remember. The CS aren't alone. FQ is WORSE than the CS. They don't accept Dbees. Magic, or even psionics, and they...... those Frenchies... don't even like the DOG BOYS!!!! Don't trust those guys man......
the NGR.... Don't Accept magic. Don't accept Dbees, and don't have Dog boys! (( though that one's not 100% their fault.))
So the other two standing 'modern' nations out there have the same views as the CS. One a bit worse.... the only thing they have that the CS doesn't is more than just barely functional literacy... and.. even with literacy...
They're against Dbees and Magic, just as bad if not worse than the CS.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:EDIT: As to the Genocide thing...... I don't think many people really concider it Genocide when they're fighting armies of LITERAL Demonic monsters from nether realms invading and eating humans. You throw it around like a buzzword, but.... this isn't even figerative... they really ____ARE____ Diabolical demons from some version of hell invading our plane of existance and trying to whipe out a human nation. So... you can scream "Genocide" for the impact it has... but..... come on.
Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Nightmask wrote:Giant2005 wrote:Does no-one else find it a little disturbing that people are so ready to support Genocide? Not just ready to support it but fully willing to blame the victims for their extinction.
Sure this is just a game but morality is universal - it extends to all mediums.
Roleplaying someone with such a dispassionate view of genocide is fine, actually believing in that sentiment isn't quite so fine.
No, you are not alone in finding the vehement defense of the CS's actions as being perfectly acceptable behavior to the point it sounds like an endorsement of that from a real life stance as being more than a little disturbing. There is a lot wrong with arguing in such defense of it that it's hard to not feel that the person is actually endorsing it as acceptable RL behavior.
For the record, to both Nightmask and Giant2005, I never said the CS"s actions are 'perfectly acceptable behavior'
I repeatedly..... repeatedly said that both sides conducted horrors during the war. Both sides. Tolkeen and CS.
I'm explaining the 'justification' of the CS in the war and how, Tolkeen lived up to every fear the CS had and the _________ CS's _________ reasons for conducting the war.
Personally. I'd probably live right where I do today. In Upper Michigan. Northern gun. I'd be in a human country that accepts Dbees but not the freaky freaky stuff. If not here. I'd be in New Lazlo, Lazlo or Merc town.
I know the current leadership of the CS is 'evil' but as pointed out by Akashic, you can see their motivations. he did a pretty good write up there. I applaude him.
But I'm not stupid. The leadership of the CS need to change. And it can change. Akashic is right in that "For right now.. we need a leader that can keep humans going and keep expanding to retake our country.. our hemisphere.. our planet.
A very good answer.
One thing I'd ask you to consider are your borders, this quote in particular: "For right now.. we need a leader that can keep humans going and keep expanding to retake our country.. our hemisphere.. our planet."
Why are you limiting the border to the planet? I don't see any reason why they would stop there.
Giant2005 wrote: They are rightful citizens of their City, so they kill everything they need to to keep it that way.
Giant2005 wrote: They are rightful citizens of their State, so they kill everything they need to to keep it that way.
Giant2005 wrote: They are rightful citizens of their Country, so they kill everything they need to to keep it that way.
Giant2005 wrote: They are rightful citizens of their Continent, so they kill everything they need to to keep it that way.
They are rightful citizens of their Planet, so they kill everything they need to to keep it that way.
Giant2005 wrote:
Aren't they citizens of their Megaverse? Wouldn't the next logical step be to kill everything they need to to keep it that way?
Giant2005 wrote:
The Mechanoids are the exact same way - they don't slaughter life out of boredom, they are methodical. They do it because: "The tormented aliens seek to stop their anguish and pain by destroying all humanoid life - the ultimate evil." (Mechanoids 31).
Giant2005 wrote:
That is the exact motivation of the CS. They seek to stop their own suffering by destroying all non-human and all magic-using life, which they consider the ultimate evil.
Giant2005 wrote:
The Mechanoids are the closest parallel to the CS we have and yet they didn't stop after purging their own planet, I don't see why the CS would be any different.
Giant2005 wrote:
Akashic suggested eventually when things were safe there would be some kind of rebellion and after overthrowing the regime, peach would return. that is exactly what happened with the Mechanoids, except the rebellion failed and the regime continues.
The Mechanoids are the future of the CS. Nothing will change if they aren't stopped.
Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:AFTER we've retaken what we lost, we can down grade the military and re-embrace humanity. But right 'now' humanity even with the CS and the NGR are holding on by a thread.
And remember. The CS aren't alone. FQ is WORSE than the CS. They don't accept Dbees. Magic, or even psionics, and they...... those Frenchies... don't even like the DOG BOYS!!!! Don't trust those guys man......
the NGR.... Don't Accept magic. Don't accept Dbees, and don't have Dog boys! (( though that one's not 100% their fault.))
So the other two standing 'modern' nations out there have the same views as the CS. One a bit worse.... the only thing they have that the CS doesn't is more than just barely functional literacy... and.. even with literacy...
They're against Dbees and Magic, just as bad if not worse than the CS.
You are forgetting the Geofront.
Giant2005 wrote:
The Geofront are exactly what I would hope would become of Mankind if such a tragedy would occur. They are accepting of all intelligent life - they are a pre-Rifts society with unparalleled technology and the advantage of DBees, magic and psionics in their arsenal. While the CS makes enemies of the world, the Geofront makes alliances.
The CS can't be the hope of humanity because they have pretty much given up their humanity. The Geofront got it right.
Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:EDIT: As to the Genocide thing...... I don't think many people really consider it Genocide when they're fighting armies of LITERAL Demonic monsters from nether realms invading and eating humans. You throw it around like a buzzword, but.... this isn't even figurative... they really ____ARE____ Diabolical demons from some version of hell invading our plane of existance and trying to whipe out a human nation. So... you can scream "Genocide" for the impact it has... but..... come on.
The CS didn't invade a nation of Demonic Monsters, they invaded a nation of DBees and magic users - their intent was to wipe out intelligent, peaceful life, not to destroy a bunch of demons.
Giant2005 wrote: If some kid gets stung because he thought it was a good idea to hit a bee's nest a few times with a stick, I'm not going to blame the Bees for using their stingers - it is the most powerful defense they have and they have a right to live.
Giant2005 wrote:
I'm certainly not going to suggest exterminating every bee on the planet.
I like honey.
Lenwen wrote:Actually .. if were to get technical PJ .. the planet is not human's .. it is in fact the Flaura an Fauna's planet .. and yes there are those types of beings in Rifts north america dbee's book.
So does that mean its all good if they went on the warpath an started kicking humans off of their planet an their continents ?
No humans do in fact not predate flaura an fauna . So .. by your logic that means yep its ok for them to kick out the invaders right ?
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Lenwen wrote:Actually .. if were to get technical PJ .. the planet is not human's .. it is in fact the Flaura an Fauna's planet .. and yes there are those types of beings in Rifts north america dbee's book.
So does that mean its all good if they went on the warpath an started kicking humans off of their planet an their continents ?
No humans do in fact not predate flaura an fauna . So .. by your logic that means yep its ok for them to kick out the invaders right ?
Humans are the INTELLIGENT life that evolved on Earth, there Lenwen. Quit trying to argue just to argue. It's not cute.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Please note.. it need not be this way. If the invaders simply left, that's a perfectly ok result as well. No need to kill everything.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
Aren't they citizens of their Megaverse? Wouldn't the next logical step be to kill everything they need to to keep it that way?
This is where it differs. We don't have claim to the entire megaverse. We have a claim to OUR PLANET. When/if the timeline advances that far, we have claim to our planet, and many would argue our solar system as we were the intelligent beings that evolved here. But as soon as you start looking at other systems, they may be held by other people/beings. It would be wrong of us to just take them.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
The Mechanoids are the exact same way - they don't slaughter life out of boredom, they are methodical. They do it because: "The tormented aliens seek to stop their anguish and pain by destroying all humanoid life - the ultimate evil." (Mechanoids 31).
Well the Mechanoids do, do it because they're evil. That's how they roll. They're not defending their own planet from which they naturally evolved from invading aliens that snuck in when a natural disaster happened. They're actively going out and killing everything they can, for their own selfish evil sake.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
That is the exact motivation of the CS. They seek to stop their own suffering by destroying all non-human and all magic-using life, which they consider the ultimate evil.
Ehhh.. Again. I don't think the CS kill just to kill, like the Mechinoids do. the CS kill to protect their children and try and make OUR PLANET safe for OUR PEOPLE. Are they misguided? OFTEN. ___________VERY OFTEN_______________ In their fear have they painted all aliens and supernaturals with the same brush? YES. Is thhis wrong? YES!! VERY WRONG!!!
Pepsi Jedi wrote:But if you take a moment and look at what happened to them, it's "understandable" as to how they got that mindset. The world was ripped apart and demons annd aliens came flying out of nowhere to attack and kill and eat humanity for 200+ Years. You can't blame them for being scared of it. It's the old once bitten twice shy thing. After 200 years of dark ages where every manner of monster, demon, supernatural meanace that has come forth from the rifts has killed, slaughtered, raped, enslaved, eaten, ect people you know... you get pretty fed up with it and don't really want to extend an olive branch to the next alien whatever it is that comes sloughing into your human settlements.
Really think about that for a while. World wide ultra mega super natural disaster. Billions of humans dead in the first days. Earth quakes, volcanos, tidal waves, dimensional shifting, the works. BILLIONS dead.. then.. suddenly there's a flash and then. RAR!!!! Monsters you've never even dreamed of are just swarming out killing and slaughtering the few survivors that are left..
And they kill and kill and kill and kill and kill for two hundred years. Your generation, your kids, your great grand kids. Their kids.. Their grand kids... For 100s of years, monsters from gods know where, slaughter the remainder of humanity. And for over 200 years there's little you can do about it. Finally mankind starts to crawl out of the ashes and regain power and it takes ANOTHER 100 years. The great great grandchildren if not the great great great grandchildren of those that were around in 1Pa are the ones alive now. After 200+ years of dark ages with every sort of magical, supernatural, alien, what-tha-frak killing and attacking humanity.... are you really going to pause and offer them the chance to eat some more humans? After 300 years of living in fear of these things, and having most of humanity killed and eaten or enslaved or whatever, for generations and generations and generations..... OUt of NOWHERE.. .again all the rifts and god knows what that poured out of them didn't happen with a build up. It was 100% out of the blue. A multidimensional invasion during the largest natural disaster earth has ever faced, and it went on for 100s of years.
Do you BLAME humanity for not figuring out 'good' alien invaders from the ones that have been preying on them for 3 centuries? After 300 years of fear and just trying to survive against the often mega damage or supernatural things that can literally rip your head off your body with no effort, or punch a whole through your body as easily as you punch through paper... do you blame humanity for not stopping to cross reference just which kinda inter-dimensional freak they've seen and are reacting to?
Now... sitting back reading the book. It's easy to go "The CS goes too far" (( they do.)) "They shouldn't fear all the DBees" (( they shouldn't)) "The CS should give some of them a chance" (( They should))
But looking at the above... generation after generation after generation, your people have been prey, struggling just to exist on their own planet as they're hunted and destroyed by inhuman invaders from other dimensions.... do you BLAME them for their (( Very justified)) Fear?
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
Akashic suggested eventually when things were safe there would be some kind of rebellion and after overthrowing the regime, peach would return. that is exactly what happened with the Mechanoids, except the rebellion failed and the regime continues.
The Mechanoids are the future of the CS. Nothing will change if they aren't stopped.
See... I don't think so. 2 reasons stand out strongly to me.
1) The US was expansionist... right up till we were not. We're by FAR the strongest country on the planet. No country can stand against us. I know it might not be PC to sayy so but it's true. We can take out any other one country on earth with out much hassle. We have that ability.. but we haven't been expansionist in decades. We grew... till we hit a limit then we stopped. Our population has tripled since then but still we're not invading and CLAIMING other countries and moving in. The CS is based off the US. They will, in time get to that point too.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:2) The CS is --already-- changing. Karl's son is a vector of change. He's not as far to the edge as his father is. And he's SMART... and he's LIKED.... and he's NEXT IN LINE. He's already accepting of magic. Once Karl is dead... his son will take over. He'll need some time to build a stable power base.. but then here come the changes. Bradford will be taken out and shot.. and..... after his power base is stable and strong. he's going to phase out some of the 'Evil" Leaders in the CS military... once they're gone, he's that much stronger... then here comes the re-introduction of Magic to the CS. Not "ALL MAGICS" but. "OUR MAGICS"
It'll (( likely)) be presented as "Turning our enemies powers back on them. Though ENDLESS Study of our dreaded enemies abilityes we've learned how to CONTROL it.. and we will start to intigrate it into our military to help defend against it" type deal. Very regulated. Very "MILITARY ONLY" (( at least to start)) and the Vanguard.. who have been keeping the faith all these years.. come back heroes.
That's step one..... once you get your populace used to and accepting magic to defend you.... You start bending a bit more. You find a race of near humans.... show that they're nnot evil... that they can live with and be allies of humanity. If you're smart youhelp them start a small kingdom (( even secretly fund it)) Show mutual defense. Let the population 'get to know them' and slowly accept them. "Seperate but equal" to start. (( I know what it was for us. Don't kill me. I'm talking about a fictional univverse stepping away from their human surpremists viewpoints. it's not going to happen overnight. Baby steps)) Build on that... in a few decades we're suddenly a human society that has limited magic use and a few Dbee allies...... then.. just keep going with intigration.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:150 years ago, if you told people in the US that one day the black's would be free and the MOST POWERFUL MAN ON PLANET EARTH would be the black president of the USA.... they'd laugh. White people would laugh and black people would laugh. They'd think you were an idiot. Hell it might even get you killed. Just for saying that. They would tell you they KNOW that'd NEVER happen. That they KNOW you're wrong...
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:EDIT: As to the Genocide thing...... I don't think many people really concider it Genocide when they're fighting armies of LITERAL Demonic monsters from nether realms invading and eating humans. You throw it around like a buzzword, but.... this isn't even figerative... they really ____ARE____ Diabolical demons from some version of hell invading our plane of existance and trying to whipe out a human nation. So... you can scream "Genocide" for the impact it has... but..... come on.
The CS didn't invade a nation of Demonic Monsters, they invaded a nation of DBees and magic users - their intent was to wipe out intelligent, peaceful life, not to destroy a bunch of demons.
And yet, when they invaded, armies of Demonic Monsters is what they found. It's not even a chicken or egg thing.
I've pointed out -repeatedly- that OFTEN, the CS' fear of Dbees and magic and the supernatural are UNFOUNDED. If not TOTALLY UNFOUNDED.
In this case.. their OFTEN unfounded fears, were 100% on the mark.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote: If some kid gets stung because he thought it was a good idea to hit a bee's nest a few times with a stick, I'm not going to blame the Bees for using their stingers - it is the most powerful defense they have and they have a right to live.
Right, but if the bees suddenly waved their wings and giant demons came out, and raped your kid for days and days and days till they raped him to death, laughing the entire time.. then cut him up and had him for lunch.. before catching you and raping you to death and eating you.. annd everyone in your neighboorhood.. and your town... while laughing... and if the bees even tried to stop them.. killed and ate them too.....
You'd re-evaulate that 'powerful deffense in right to live" wouldn't you?
That's what Tolkeen did.Giant2005 wrote:
I'm certainly not going to suggest exterminating every bee on the planet.
I like honey.
Yeah but if the above happened... You might change your mind. Right?
Lenwen wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Lenwen wrote:Actually .. if were to get technical PJ .. the planet is not human's .. it is in fact the Flaura an Fauna's planet .. and yes there are those types of beings in Rifts north america dbee's book.
So does that mean its all good if they went on the warpath an started kicking humans off of their planet an their continents ?
No humans do in fact not predate flaura an fauna . So .. by your logic that means yep its ok for them to kick out the invaders right ?
Humans are the INTELLIGENT life that evolved on Earth, there Lenwen. Quit trying to argue just to argue. It's not cute.
only your allowed to on these boards ?
LMAO !!
There -is- some hand waving for both sides. (( War starts with Tolkeen suddenly and unexplained, having a magical thing that can suck up tack nuke attack.
Rifts, Siege on Tolkeen Two, pg 7 wrote:The Coalition knew Tolkeen was fomidable and had been preparing for war for years.
That last point is very debatable. The CS isn't all about genocide - their secondary objective is the oppression of their own people. They purposefully keep their people stupid to ensure that last statement is incorrect.
The only time that is likely to change is when they are sure the threat is eliminated. For the threat to be eliminated, either the magic energies of Earth have to dissipate or they have successfully caused the extinction of all non-CS lifeforms
Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Please note.. it need not be this way. If the invaders simply left, that's a perfectly ok result as well. No need to kill everything.
That isn't canon.
The Coalition Wars weren't based on conquest or liberation, the books stated several times that it was a "war of Genocide" (Coalition Wars 1, page 7).
Moving from your fortifications isn't a means of survival, it is a means of weakening your defense. If Tolkeen decided to pack up and leave, it would have just made the CS's job easier.
Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
Aren't they citizens of their Megaverse? Wouldn't the next logical step be to kill everything they need to to keep it that way?
This is where it differs. We don't have claim to the entire megaverse. We have a claim to OUR PLANET. When/if the timeline advances that far, we have claim to our planet, and many would argue our solar system as we were the intelligent beings that evolved here. But as soon as you start looking at other systems, they may be held by other people/beings. It would be wrong of us to just take them.
Why would we argue for the Solar System but not the Megaverse?
Giant2005 wrote:
Americans have claim to America.
Humans have claim to Earth.
Lifeforms within the Megaverse have claim to the Megaverse.
Giant2005 wrote:
If the Americans have the right to claim the Earth because they are Human, wouldn't the next logical step be to claim their right to the Megaverse because they are also Lifeforms within the Megaverse?
Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
The Mechanoids are the exact same way - they don't slaughter life out of boredom, they are methodical. They do it because: "The tormented aliens seek to stop their anguish and pain by destroying all humanoid life - the ultimate evil." (Mechanoids 31).
Well the Mechanoids do, do it because they're evil. That's how they roll. They're not defending their own planet from which they naturally evolved from invading aliens that snuck in when a natural disaster happened. They're actively going out and killing everything they can, for their own selfish evil sake.Giant2005 wrote: No but that is exactly how they begun. They exterminated the evil forces of their own world but it wasn't enough, there were still plenty of evil forces out there in the Megaverse that needed exterminating and so they did.
Giant2005 wrote:
You will absolutely disagree with this but I consider it a certainty that is the same route the CS would take if given the opportunity.
Giant2005 wrote: They don't have the means and probably never will but they wish they could.
Giant2005 wrote: They didn't invadew Tolkeen to teach them a lesson, they didn't do it to push them off their land, they did it because they wanted to kill every last man, woman and child.
Giant2005 wrote:
As the book says, it was a "War of Genocide". that means no survivors, no prisoners.
This is entirely my opinion but such a decision can only be made with the most extreme hate dominating one's mind.
At what point do you expect such hate to subside? After winning a battle? After winning a war?
I don't think that level of hate can ever subside.
Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
That is the exact motivation of the CS. They seek to stop their own suffering by destroying all non-human and all magic-using life, which they consider the ultimate evil.
Ehhh.. Again. I don't think the CS kill just to kill, like the Mechinoids do. the CS kill to protect their children and try and make OUR PLANET safe for OUR PEOPLE. Are they misguided? OFTEN. ___________VERY OFTEN_______________ In their fear have they painted all aliens and supernaturals with the same brush? YES. Is thhis wrong? YES!! VERY WRONG!!!
They DO kill just to kill.
Giant2005 wrote:
If it was about protection, it would not be about genocide, it would be about neutralizing the threat. You don't have to wipe out a race of people to neutralize a threat but that is the only avenue the CS could see because they want to kill, not to neutralize.
Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:But if you take a moment and look at what happened to them, it's "understandable" as to how they got that mindset. The world was ripped apart and demons annd aliens came flying out of nowhere to attack and kill and eat humanity for 200+ Years. You can't blame them for being scared of it. It's the old once bitten twice shy thing. After 200 years of dark ages where every manner of monster, demon, supernatural meanace that has come forth from the rifts has killed, slaughtered, raped, enslaved, eaten, ect people you know... you get pretty fed up with it and don't really want to extend an olive branch to the next alien whatever it is that comes sloughing into your human settlements.
Really think about that for a while. World wide ultra mega super natural disaster. Billions of humans dead in the first days. Earth quakes, volcanos, tidal waves, dimensional shifting, the works. BILLIONS dead.. then.. suddenly there's a flash and then. RAR!!!! Monsters you've never even dreamed of are just swarming out killing and slaughtering the few survivors that are left..
And they kill and kill and kill and kill and kill for two hundred years. Your generation, your kids, your great grand kids. Their kids.. Their grand kids... For 100s of years, monsters from gods know where, slaughter the remainder of humanity. And for over 200 years there's little you can do about it. Finally mankind starts to crawl out of the ashes and regain power and it takes ANOTHER 100 years. The great great grandchildren if not the great great great grandchildren of those that were around in 1Pa are the ones alive now. After 200+ years of dark ages with every sort of magical, supernatural, alien, what-tha-frak killing and attacking humanity.... are you really going to pause and offer them the chance to eat some more humans? After 300 years of living in fear of these things, and having most of humanity killed and eaten or enslaved or whatever, for generations and generations and generations..... OUt of NOWHERE.. .again all the rifts and god knows what that poured out of them didn't happen with a build up. It was 100% out of the blue. A multidimensional invasion during the largest natural disaster earth has ever faced, and it went on for 100s of years.
Do you BLAME humanity for not figuring out 'good' alien invaders from the ones that have been preying on them for 3 centuries? After 300 years of fear and just trying to survive against the often mega damage or supernatural things that can literally rip your head off your body with no effort, or punch a whole through your body as easily as you punch through paper... do you blame humanity for not stopping to cross reference just which kinda inter-dimensional freak they've seen and are reacting to?
Now... sitting back reading the book. It's easy to go "The CS goes too far" (( they do.)) "They shouldn't fear all the DBees" (( they shouldn't)) "The CS should give some of them a chance" (( They should))
But looking at the above... generation after generation after generation, your people have been prey, struggling just to exist on their own planet as they're hunted and destroyed by inhuman invaders from other dimensions.... do you BLAME them for their (( Very justified)) Fear?
You are right. It is perfectly understandable that they would be driven to such insanity under such extreme circumstances.
That doesn't make it right.
Giant2005 wrote:
The real tragedy of the story is they have become the monsters that they wish to exterminate.
Giant2005 wrote:
The thing is, they should be able to identify which are the 'good' aliens and which aren't.
Giant2005 wrote:
The 'good' ones are typically the ones that don't attack people on a whim.
Giant2005 wrote: The problem is, the CS starts so many confrontations that even the most peaceful DBees know that they will have to defend themselves or flee if they see a Deadboy. The CS can't identify the peaceful DBees because as a warmongering nation, they have made an enemy of everyone.
Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
Akashic suggested eventually when things were safe there would be some kind of rebellion and after overthrowing the regime, peach would return. that is exactly what happened with the Mechanoids, except the rebellion failed and the regime continues.
The Mechanoids are the future of the CS. Nothing will change if they aren't stopped.
See... I don't think so. 2 reasons stand out strongly to me.
1) The US was expansionist... right up till we were not. We're by FAR the strongest country on the planet. No country can stand against us. I know it might not be PC to sayy so but it's true. We can take out any other one country on earth with out much hassle. We have that ability.. but we haven't been expansionist in decades. We grew... till we hit a limit then we stopped. Our population has tripled since then but still we're not invading and CLAIMING other countries and moving in. The CS is based off the US. They will, in time get to that point too.
The CS isn't based off the US, it is based off Nazi Germany. they are very different things.
Giant2005 wrote:The US was expansionist - they expanded because they wanted land, not because they wanted to kill.
Giant2005 wrote:
Their expansion ended when they didn't need any more land, or there was no more land to take, the CS will end when there is nothing left to kill.
Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:2) The CS is --already-- changing. Karl's son is a vector of change. He's not as far to the edge as his father is. And he's SMART... and he's LIKED.... and he's NEXT IN LINE. He's already accepting of magic. Once Karl is dead... his son will take over. He'll need some time to build a stable power base.. but then here come the changes. Bradford will be taken out and shot.. and..... after his power base is stable and strong. he's going to phase out some of the 'Evil" Leaders in the CS military... once they're gone, he's that much stronger... then here comes the re-introduction of Magic to the CS. Not "ALL MAGICS" but. "OUR MAGICS"
It'll (( likely)) be presented as "Turning our enemies powers back on them. Though ENDLESS Study of our dreaded enemies abilityes we've learned how to CONTROL it.. and we will start to intigrate it into our military to help defend against it" type deal. Very regulated. Very "MILITARY ONLY" (( at least to start)) and the Vanguard.. who have been keeping the faith all these years.. come back heroes.
That's step one..... once you get your populace used to and accepting magic to defend you.... You start bending a bit more. You find a race of near humans.... show that they're nnot evil... that they can live with and be allies of humanity. If you're smart youhelp them start a small kingdom (( even secretly fund it)) Show mutual defense. Let the population 'get to know them' and slowly accept them. "Seperate but equal" to start. (( I know what it was for us. Don't kill me. I'm talking about a fictional univverse stepping away from their human surpremists viewpoints. it's not going to happen overnight. Baby steps)) Build on that... in a few decades we're suddenly a human society that has limited magic use and a few Dbee allies...... then.. just keep going with intigration.
That is possible. It would have to happen sooner rather than later though - there is only so much abuse that can be issued before even the cowards of Lazlo decide enough is enough.
Giant2005 wrote:
Once the CS pushes the rest of America into war, it would be very difficult for anyone within the CS to get the people to accept anything beyond what they have already been indoctrinated with.
Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:150 years ago, if you told people in the US that one day the black's would be free and the MOST POWERFUL MAN ON PLANET EARTH would be the black president of the USA.... they'd laugh. White people would laugh and black people would laugh. They'd think you were an idiot. Hell it might even get you killed. Just for saying that. They would tell you they KNOW that'd NEVER happen. That they KNOW you're wrong...
This is true but I don't think it is applicable.
Giant2005 wrote: Black people weren't killed on sight, they were slaves - their future existence was never in jeopardy.
Giant2005 wrote:
Black people were able to become respected citizens because they were alive to earn that right, a bunch of extinct DBees won't ever become respected citizens because they are extinct...
Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:EDIT: As to the Genocide thing...... I don't think many people really concider it Genocide when they're fighting armies of LITERAL Demonic monsters from nether realms invading and eating humans. You throw it around like a buzzword, but.... this isn't even figerative... they really ____ARE____ Diabolical demons from some version of hell invading our plane of existance and trying to whipe out a human nation. So... you can scream "Genocide" for the impact it has... but..... come on.
The CS didn't invade a nation of Demonic Monsters, they invaded a nation of DBees and magic users - their intent was to wipe out intelligent, peaceful life, not to destroy a bunch of demons.
And yet, when they invaded, armies of Demonic Monsters is what they found. It's not even a chicken or egg thing.
I've pointed out -repeatedly- that OFTEN, the CS' fear of Dbees and magic and the supernatural are UNFOUNDED. If not TOTALLY UNFOUNDED.
In this case.. their OFTEN unfounded fears, were 100% on the mark.
You are right it isn't a chicken or egg thing...
The chicken or egg debate exists because one cannot have existed without the other, this is most certainly not the case with respect to the CS war
Giant2005 wrote:
The demons weren't summoned until after the CS initiated the conflict, there was a definite chain of events, a definite line of cause and effect.
Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote: If some kid gets stung because he thought it was a good idea to hit a bee's nest a few times with a stick, I'm not going to blame the Bees for using their stingers - it is the most powerful defense they have and they have a right to live.
Right, but if the bees suddenly waved their wings and giant demons came out, and raped your kid for days and days and days till they raped him to death, laughing the entire time.. then cut him up and had him for lunch.. before catching you and raping you to death and eating you.. annd everyone in your neighboorhood.. and your town... while laughing... and if the bees even tried to stop them.. killed and ate them too.....
You'd re-evaulate that 'powerful deffense in right to live" wouldn't you?
That's what Tolkeen did.Giant2005 wrote:
I'm certainly not going to suggest exterminating every bee on the planet.
I like honey.
Yeah but if the above happened... You might change your mind. Right?
No I would not change my mind.
[/quote]Giant2005 wrote:
I would simply choose not to hit Bees nests with sticks so both lifeforms could coexist in peace.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:If they raped your kid to death and ate him, and everyone else in your town... (( and you)) you'd still be all "Oh it was my kids fault, not the bees or their allies, I'd like to try and live in peace with them.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Please note.. it need not be this way. If the invaders simply left, that's a perfectly ok result as well. No need to kill everything.
That isn't canon.
The Coalition Wars weren't based on conquest or liberation, the books stated several times that it was a "war of Genocide" (Coalition Wars 1, page 7).
Moving from your fortifications isn't a means of survival, it is a means of weakening your defense. If Tolkeen decided to pack up and leave, it would have just made the CS's job easier.
It's a figure of speech and flowery description. When Tolkeen lost and the survivors fled, most were allowed to do so. (( helps that the JLA got in the way of some of them)) Thousands of them have even transversed CS territory to end up in Lazlo. They wern't chased down every last man woman and child. Just the ones that didn't flee.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
The Mechanoids are the exact same way - they don't slaughter life out of boredom, they are methodical. They do it because: "The tormented aliens seek to stop their anguish and pain by destroying all humanoid life - the ultimate evil." (Mechanoids 31).
Well the Mechanoids do, do it because they're evil. That's how they roll. They're not defending their own planet from which they naturally evolved from invading aliens that snuck in when a natural disaster happened. They're actively going out and killing everything they can, for their own selfish evil sake.Giant2005 wrote: No but that is exactly how they begun. They exterminated the evil forces of their own world but it wasn't enough, there were still plenty of evil forces out there in the Megaverse that needed exterminating and so they did.
We know that? Where's that stated? (( not being argumentative. I'm not an expert on the Mechinoids, if it says they started out as heros defending their planet from evil and now eat the faces of everything they come into contact with, I'd like to read about that transition))
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
As the book says, it was a "War of Genocide". that means no survivors, no prisoners.
This is entirely my opinion but such a decision can only be made with the most extreme hate dominating one's mind.
At what point do you expect such hate to subside? After winning a battle? After winning a war?
I don't think that level of hate can ever subside.
Reread what I wrote about the 300 years of being on the menu of alien invaders and the dozens of generations that lived in fear of these invaders on our own planet. Might help you get your mind around the fear that motivated the war.
The "hate" Came after Tolkeen teamed up with demons and pulled the Sorcerer's revenge
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:But if you take a moment and look at what happened to them, it's "understandable" as to how they got that mindset. The world was ripped apart and demons annd aliens came flying out of nowhere to attack and kill and eat humanity for 200+ Years. You can't blame them for being scared of it. It's the old once bitten twice shy thing. After 200 years of dark ages where every manner of monster, demon, supernatural meanace that has come forth from the rifts has killed, slaughtered, raped, enslaved, eaten, ect people you know... you get pretty fed up with it and don't really want to extend an olive branch to the next alien whatever it is that comes sloughing into your human settlements.
Really think about that for a while. World wide ultra mega super natural disaster. Billions of humans dead in the first days. Earth quakes, volcanos, tidal waves, dimensional shifting, the works. BILLIONS dead.. then.. suddenly there's a flash and then. RAR!!!! Monsters you've never even dreamed of are just swarming out killing and slaughtering the few survivors that are left..
And they kill and kill and kill and kill and kill for two hundred years. Your generation, your kids, your great grand kids. Their kids.. Their grand kids... For 100s of years, monsters from gods know where, slaughter the remainder of humanity. And for over 200 years there's little you can do about it. Finally mankind starts to crawl out of the ashes and regain power and it takes ANOTHER 100 years. The great great grandchildren if not the great great great grandchildren of those that were around in 1Pa are the ones alive now. After 200+ years of dark ages with every sort of magical, supernatural, alien, what-tha-frak killing and attacking humanity.... are you really going to pause and offer them the chance to eat some more humans? After 300 years of living in fear of these things, and having most of humanity killed and eaten or enslaved or whatever, for generations and generations and generations..... OUt of NOWHERE.. .again all the rifts and god knows what that poured out of them didn't happen with a build up. It was 100% out of the blue. A multidimensional invasion during the largest natural disaster earth has ever faced, and it went on for 100s of years.
Do you BLAME humanity for not figuring out 'good' alien invaders from the ones that have been preying on them for 3 centuries? After 300 years of fear and just trying to survive against the often mega damage or supernatural things that can literally rip your head off your body with no effort, or punch a whole through your body as easily as you punch through paper... do you blame humanity for not stopping to cross reference just which kinda inter-dimensional freak they've seen and are reacting to?
Now... sitting back reading the book. It's easy to go "The CS goes too far" (( they do.)) "They shouldn't fear all the DBees" (( they shouldn't)) "The CS should give some of them a chance" (( They should))
But looking at the above... generation after generation after generation, your people have been prey, struggling just to exist on their own planet as they're hunted and destroyed by inhuman invaders from other dimensions.... do you BLAME them for their (( Very justified)) Fear?
You are right. It is perfectly understandable that they would be driven to such insanity under such extreme circumstances.
That doesn't make it right.
And here we're in agreement... I think I might need to make it blink or glow or twirll or something. I've said over and over again, that both sides had faults in the war. Both sides had horrors done by them and done too them. I've said over and over again that the CS were often way wrong about their perceptions of DBees and magic.
In ___THIS CASE___ Though, they ended up being right. 1) Tolkeen was a city state that endorced magic and dimensional beings of great power. 2) They teamed up with demonic armies to try and wipe out humanity. 3) They were a threat (( as evidenced by 1 and 2)) So the CS took out that threat to it's own people.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:The CS aren't a nation of psychotic raving murderers. They aren't expanding "Because they want to kill!" Either. They're expanding because they want Earth for the Earthlings and they are growing in people and need more land. Their motivation isn't slaughter. It never has been. To say that is a clear misrepresentation.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
Their expansion ended when they didn't need any more land, or there was no more land to take, the CS will end when there is nothing left to kill.
So.... you think that the CS is literally just a nation of millions and millions of blood thirsty psychotic murders who's only motivation is... the destruction of all life and murder of anything they can catch?
Really? Millions and millions of humans that only want to kill everything?
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
Once the CS pushes the rest of America into war, it would be very difficult for anyone within the CS to get the people to accept anything beyond what they have already been indoctrinated with.
So..... how do you explain Modern Germany?
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
The demons weren't summoned until after the CS initiated the conflict, there was a definite chain of events, a definite line of cause and effect.
The planning and ground work were already in effect before hand. They wern't UNLEASHED untill after the CS came over the hill. Tolkeen didn't start the war and then just out of the blue fall ass backwards into a huge army of demons out of nowhere willing to jump into the war and do their bidding. It was planned.
Giant2005 wrote:I think that the CS is a nation of mindless sheep that are controlled by a select few who want to kill everything.
Until those sheep are ready to rebel against those select few, they should be responsible for their own actions.
Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
The demons weren't summoned until after the CS initiated the conflict, there was a definite chain of events, a definite line of cause and effect.
The planning and ground work were already in effect before hand. They wern't UNLEASHED untill after the CS came over the hill. Tolkeen didn't start the war and then just out of the blue fall ass backwards into a huge army of demons out of nowhere willing to jump into the war and do their bidding. It was planned.
I'm going to have to ask for a source for that one...
You make it seem like Tolkeen initiated the war and I'm pretty sure they didn't - they reacted, not planned.
Lenwen wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:If they raped your kid to death and ate him, and everyone else in your town... (( and you)) you'd still be all "Oh it was my kids fault, not the bees or their allies, I'd like to try and live in peace with them.
Can you cite a source that show's Tolkeen forces .. raping entire Coalition towns .. and attacking Coalition citizens enmass as per your above implication ?
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Quite possible. But then the path that is endorced leads to destruction. I guess it would depend on when the evac plan was proposed. before or after the upswing of evil in power in tolkeen.
If you went this way you could likely get people like Erin Tarn and Plato to also speak out for the non viloent option of evacuation and relocation vs the war with the CS and the taming up with the demonic armies.
But it's possible it might not work. And if not... they die, like they did in canon. But it IS an option that was open to them. just one that (( Due to writing, and the direction of the series )) Wasn't chosen.
Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Please note.. it need not be this way. If the invaders simply left, that's a perfectly ok result as well. No need to kill everything.
That isn't canon.
The Coalition Wars weren't based on conquest or liberation, the books stated several times that it was a "war of Genocide" (Coalition Wars 1, page 7).
Moving from your fortifications isn't a means of survival, it is a means of weakening your defense. If Tolkeen decided to pack up and leave, it would have just made the CS's job easier.
It's a figure of speech and flowery description. When Tolkeen lost and the survivors fled, most were allowed to do so. (( helps that the JLA got in the way of some of them)) Thousands of them have even transversed CS territory to end up in Lazlo. They wern't chased down every last man woman and child. Just the ones that didn't flee.
Genocide isn't a figure of speech, it is a very defined word with absolute connotations.
Giant2005 wrote: The author used that word because it is exactly the intention.
The survivors didn't escape because the author didn't understand the definition of the word, the survivors are still alive because the CS simply isn't done yet.
Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
The Mechanoids are the exact same way - they don't slaughter life out of boredom, they are methodical. They do it because: "The tormented aliens seek to stop their anguish and pain by destroying all humanoid life - the ultimate evil." (Mechanoids 31).
Well the Mechanoids do, do it because they're evil. That's how they roll. They're not defending their own planet from which they naturally evolved from invading aliens that snuck in when a natural disaster happened. They're actively going out and killing everything they can, for their own selfish evil sake.Giant2005 wrote: No but that is exactly how they begun. They exterminated the evil forces of their own world but it wasn't enough, there were still plenty of evil forces out there in the Megaverse that needed exterminating and so they did.
We know that? Where's that stated? (( not being argumentative. I'm not an expert on the Mechinoids, if it says they started out as heros defending their planet from evil and now eat the faces of everything they come into contact with, I'd like to read about that transition))
They weren't exactly heroes. They were peaceful Cyborgs who were killed en masse by their creators because the creators started getting a little paranoid.
The Mechanoids retaliated by changing their design to something they thought their creators would accept better. Their creators didn't appreciate the sentiment and continued to kill them. Eventually, the Mechanoids had had enough and retaliated, wiping them out. They then decided that all lifeforms were as evil as their former masters and opted to cleanse the entire Megaverse of that "evil".
Can't you see the similarities between that and the CS?
Giant2005 wrote:
After being harassed and murdered for 300 years by DBees and magic users, they have declared everything in their likeness "evil" and in need of cleansing, regardless of guilt.Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
As the book says, it was a "War of Genocide". that means no survivors, no prisoners.
This is entirely my opinion but such a decision can only be made with the most extreme hate dominating one's mind.
At what point do you expect such hate to subside? After winning a battle? After winning a war?
I don't think that level of hate can ever subside.
Reread what I wrote about the 300 years of being on the menu of alien invaders and the dozens of generations that lived in fear of these invaders on our own planet. Might help you get your mind around the fear that motivated the war.
The "hate" Came after Tolkeen teamed up with demons and pulled the Sorcerer's revenge
I understand the fear, just not the hate.
Giant2005 wrote:
The choice of genocide, inspired by hate, came before the Sorcerer's revenge and before the war begun.
Giant2005 wrote:
No, the hate was spawned after 300 years of atrocities like you described, not anything Tolkeen did specifically.Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:But if you take a moment and look at what happened to them, it's "understandable" as to how they got that mindset. The world was ripped apart and demons annd aliens came flying out of nowhere to attack and kill and eat humanity for 200+ Years. You can't blame them for being scared of it. It's the old once bitten twice shy thing. After 200 years of dark ages where every manner of monster, demon, supernatural meanace that has come forth from the rifts has killed, slaughtered, raped, enslaved, eaten, ect people you know... you get pretty fed up with it and don't really want to extend an olive branch to the next alien whatever it is that comes sloughing into your human settlements.
Really think about that for a while. World wide ultra mega super natural disaster. Billions of humans dead in the first days. Earth quakes, volcanos, tidal waves, dimensional shifting, the works. BILLIONS dead.. then.. suddenly there's a flash and then. RAR!!!! Monsters you've never even dreamed of are just swarming out killing and slaughtering the few survivors that are left..
And they kill and kill and kill and kill and kill for two hundred years. Your generation, your kids, your great grand kids. Their kids.. Their grand kids... For 100s of years, monsters from gods know where, slaughter the remainder of humanity. And for over 200 years there's little you can do about it. Finally mankind starts to crawl out of the ashes and regain power and it takes ANOTHER 100 years. The great great grandchildren if not the great great great grandchildren of those that were around in 1Pa are the ones alive now. After 200+ years of dark ages with every sort of magical, supernatural, alien, what-tha-frak killing and attacking humanity.... are you really going to pause and offer them the chance to eat some more humans? After 300 years of living in fear of these things, and having most of humanity killed and eaten or enslaved or whatever, for generations and generations and generations..... OUt of NOWHERE.. .again all the rifts and god knows what that poured out of them didn't happen with a build up. It was 100% out of the blue. A multidimensional invasion during the largest natural disaster earth has ever faced, and it went on for 100s of years.
Do you BLAME humanity for not figuring out 'good' alien invaders from the ones that have been preying on them for 3 centuries? After 300 years of fear and just trying to survive against the often mega damage or supernatural things that can literally rip your head off your body with no effort, or punch a whole through your body as easily as you punch through paper... do you blame humanity for not stopping to cross reference just which kinda inter-dimensional freak they've seen and are reacting to?
Now... sitting back reading the book. It's easy to go "The CS goes too far" (( they do.)) "They shouldn't fear all the DBees" (( they shouldn't)) "The CS should give some of them a chance" (( They should))
But looking at the above... generation after generation after generation, your people have been prey, struggling just to exist on their own planet as they're hunted and destroyed by inhuman invaders from other dimensions.... do you BLAME them for their (( Very justified)) Fear?
You are right. It is perfectly understandable that they would be driven to such insanity under such extreme circumstances.
That doesn't make it right.
And here we're in agreement... I think I might need to make it blink or glow or twirll or something. I've said over and over again, that both sides had faults in the war. Both sides had horrors done by them and done too them. I've said over and over again that the CS were often way wrong about their perceptions of DBees and magic.
In ___THIS CASE___ Though, they ended up being right. 1) Tolkeen was a city state that endorced magic and dimensional beings of great power. 2) They teamed up with demonic armies to try and wipe out humanity. 3) They were a threat (( as evidenced by 1 and 2)) So the CS took out that threat to it's own people.
I can understand everything but that last paragraph.
I just can't understand how anyone can think that attacking someone because of a perceived situation, then forcing them into that situation against their will confirms that the initial attack was just.
Giant2005 wrote:
That is like me seeing a gun holstered safely at your hip, getting scared and punching you in the face repeatedly while saying "I don't like guns, I won't take the risk of being shot with it so I'm going to punch you in the face until you are dead, or until you shoot me with it".
Giant2005 wrote:
The part that doesn't make sense to me is what comes after: somehow convincing myself that I was right in attacking you because the attack proved that you would shoot me with the gun if the alternative was death.
Giant2005 wrote:
I just can't accept that argument - if someone is forced to fire their weapon upon threat of death, they are not the ones responsible for the bullet.
Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:The CS aren't a nation of psychotic raving murderers. They aren't expanding "Because they want to kill!" Either. They're expanding because they want Earth for the Earthlings and they are growing in people and need more land. Their motivation isn't slaughter. It never has been. To say that is a clear misrepresentation.
The books tell us otherwise.
Giant2005 wrote: (( Accidently deleted a sentence here, where Giant mentioned throwing around the word Genocide like candy and am not starting this reply over to recapture it)
But no. You're now throwing around Genocide like you did Nazi. It's an emotional word that drowns out the words and paragraphs around it. That's why you're throwing it out like you are. the books clearly state, with some effort and detail why the CS went to war with Tolkeen. It wasn't just for the love of battle. It NEVER was for a love of battle.
It was because tolkeen was too close, too alien, too different, too much -Exactly- what the CS feared, and instead of leaving when they had the chance (( and even other magic societys told them to do)) they instead built up military forces and welcomed the war. At a point in the war, did it become scorched earth policy? Yes it did. But that's explained too. After the Sorcerer's revenge and the fact that... that cute littel 7 year old girl with the big eyes.. might very well be an ancient horned dragon able to pick up and rip apart a tank. That teen in the teeshirt? Might be a layline walker that could throw a fireball and take out a guy in MD armor. Ect ect ect. That's explained in the book too.
And again, because it seemd to get missed each time.. I'm not saying in any way that the CS did NOT commit horrors in the war. They did.Giant2005 wrote:
They might want more land, I don't know if the book says anything on that matter but the book clearly states that the certainly want "genocide".
At the very least, the book states that at least part of their motivation is slaughter.
Go re-read them. Mindless slaughter was no in the list of 'Reasoning'. After the Sorcerers revenge it probably gets thrown out alot. But then.... *Shrugs* That big gorilla in the room you keep purposefully ignoring. "Willfully siding with -armies- of inhuman demons and then empowering them even more to wipe the CS off tthe face of the earth"
What's the proper PC response for that?Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
Their expansion ended when they didn't need any more land, or there was no more land to take, the CS will end when there is nothing left to kill.
So.... you think that the CS is literally just a nation of millions and millions of blood thirsty psychotic murders who's only motivation is... the destruction of all life and murder of anything they can catch?
Really? Millions and millions of humans that only want to kill everything?
No.
I think that the CS is a nation of mindless sheep that are controlled by a select few who want to kill everything.
You're pretty harsh on the people. Do you hold that for the people of Free Quebec and the NGR too? They're the same way.Giant2005 wrote: Until those sheep are ready to rebel against those select few, they should be responsible for their own actions
They are. They're pretty happy about their actions. As a nation they just took out a huge threat to humanity. A city state that held inhuman monsters and teamed up with armys of demons. They see themselves as heroes.Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
Once the CS pushes the rest of America into war, it would be very difficult for anyone within the CS to get the people to accept anything beyond what they have already been indoctrinated with.
So..... how do you explain Modern Germany?
Germany lost their war.
If the CS lost against Tolkeen, it is very possible that the citizens of CS could come to the same realization.
If Germany had won, I am certain the world wouldn't be as it is now - most of all Germany.
So to quote your above statement you see the Germans as a nation of mindless sheep that were controlled by a select few, and if they'd won, they'd still be that? You sort of dodged around it but that's what you're saying... right?Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
The demons weren't summoned until after the CS initiated the conflict, there was a definite chain of events, a definite line of cause and effect.
The planning and ground work were already in effect before hand. They wern't UNLEASHED untill after the CS came over the hill. Tolkeen didn't start the war and then just out of the blue fall ass backwards into a huge army of demons out of nowhere willing to jump into the war and do their bidding. It was planned.
I'm going to have to ask for a source for that one...
You make it seem like Tolkeen initiated the war and I'm pretty sure they didn't - they reacted, not planned.
Armorlord wrote:Giant2005 wrote:I think that the CS is a nation of mindless sheep that are controlled by a select few who want to kill everything.
Until those sheep are ready to rebel against those select few, they should be responsible for their own actions.Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:
The demons weren't summoned until after the CS initiated the conflict, there was a definite chain of events, a definite line of cause and effect.
The planning and ground work were already in effect before hand. They wern't UNLEASHED untill after the CS came over the hill. Tolkeen didn't start the war and then just out of the blue fall ass backwards into a huge army of demons out of nowhere willing to jump into the war and do their bidding. It was planned.
I'm going to have to ask for a source for that one...
You make it seem like Tolkeen initiated the war and I'm pretty sure they didn't - they reacted, not planned.
While I think Giant is viewing Coalition a bit more harshly than is objectively true, I am beginning to think Pepsi is getting entirely too deep into the CS mindset. Even I'm beginning to have a hard time telling him espousing the Coalition viewpoint apart from his own views.
Come back up for air Jedi, you've been down too deep in the midnight sea!
Continuing on, while I'm certain the CS believes the demons were always waiting in the wings, they actually discovered those ones with their teams of dimensional treasure hunters trying to locate anything that could help them once the war started to go against them.
Bad Mojo wrote: PJ, I actually did like your run away solution. However, I see few problems with it. One is convincing the dragons to leave their home, from what I understand, dragons are very territorial and not in the habit of moving when they don't want too.
Bad Mojo wrote:
Secondly, I just can't see the CS not attacking the envoys. It would be a very tempting target and they would be very venerable to a carpet bomb strikes.
Bad Mojo wrote:
Still, hypothetically, when the CS expands and DOES show up on their door step demanding they move again(bigger, meaner, and more powerful than they were before), what should they do? Do they run again? Is it finally time to fight? At what point do you finally say enough is enough?
Bad Mojo wrote:
I still say the war with tolkeen was 100% BS, way too many factors were RIGGED in the CS favor,
Bad Mojo wrote:
which is one of the problems I have with the rifts books. I have seen it time and time again where the CS has slaughtered/killed D-bees(tolkeen), attacked power blocks like Naruni Enterprises, earned the hatred of the federation of magic, etc. Yet, NOTHING-EVER-HAPPENS-TOO-THEM.
Bad Mojo wrote: There is some major hand waving going to justify why chi town isn't a smoldering crater. For example, naruni enterprises was planning a retaliation for the CS attacking their rifts branch, but they were TOLD by the other power blocks to not retaliate because it would destabilize the power structure or some stupid reason like that.
Bad Mojo wrote: I would like to see a book where the CS gets seriously hurt, not just some symbolic gesture where they fight someone and lose some men, but in the end they were just cannon fodder.
Bad Mojo wrote: But something where they permanently lose something that no amount of propaganda can fix. Like losing the military complex where the dog boys are created.
Bad Mojo wrote: Or one of the city states gets destroyed. Something BIG! I have no faith the minion war will change anything, the status quo will stay. I would love to see the federation of magic and other CS enemies DO something besides sit on their thumbs.
Bad Mojo wrote:
Now, back to tolkeen. Besides, running away, what else could Tolkien have done differently than use demons? Their allies turned their backs on them(which makes no sense, They have no problem fighting overwhelming odds in africa, but fighting nazi like human supremacists that is committing genocide is crossing the line! thanks rigged cs luck machine!),
Bad Mojo wrote: the enemies are practically literally at the gates, friends and families in neighboring towns are getting tortured and slaughtered by the CS. They were desperate, what else could they have done? Please give me something besides just saying don't use demons.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Lenwen wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:If they raped your kid to death and ate him, and everyone else in your town... (( and you)) you'd still be all "Oh it was my kids fault, not the bees or their allies, I'd like to try and live in peace with them.
Can you cite a source that show's Tolkeen forces .. raping entire Coalition towns .. and attacking Coalition citizens enmass as per your above implication ?
It was a hypothetical example.
Well I know that, but I think some people were getting the wrong idea. Sometimes you have to remind them that you are talking about the Coalition viewpoint and not your own. Go back and forth enough and it gets harder to remember that, or harder to notice if they are someone just entering the conversation.Pepsi Jedi wrote:I'm not though. lol I keep on and keep on and keep on pointing out I do _____NOT_____ think the CS innocent. and I keep on and keep on and keep on pointing out that OFTEN the CS is wrong in their fears, and OFTEN their reactions are way way wrong, and OFTEN they are doing bad bad things.
My pet theory on that is always going to be blaming Troud (#99 on RGMG pg 331). That it coincided with the disruption of magic in the area seems most telling, since dragons would not normally have grouped together like that in the first place. I think the key figures of that city had suffered from Troud's so-called civilizing influence, and that when the chips were down and the magic was disrupted, the bulk of the dragons there just realized they didn't really care that much about the place.Pepsi Jedi wrote:1) With the powers of hind sight, we can see that THESE dragons.... not so much. They didn't fight to the end.. when the chips were down, THESE dragons.. just left. lol. that's been pointed out before (( and I even agreed that it's weird)) the dragons we have in question, were totally above it and just.. left vs fighting and dieing in defence of territory. (( I even offered forth that maybe they just looked at it objectfully and knew they couldn't win, so they refused to die)) But yeah... these dragons will just up and leave. how do we know? because that's exactly what they did when the threat became real. lol
Vrykolas2k wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Lenwen wrote:Can you cite a source that show's Tolkeen forces .. raping entire Coalition towns .. and attacking Coalition citizens enmass as per your above implication ?
It was a hypothetical example.
It is, however, what the CS did...
Akashic Soldier wrote:I have read all these posts but I couldn't be asked doing the quote thing as I am on an iphone and its a pain in the ass.
I'll say this again and I REALLY hope someone can hear what I am saying and think about it instead of trying to find what is wrong with the sentence structure or metaphors.
The CS are a group of humans fighting for their world. Launching an intergal--you know there's not even a point me typing that.
Pepsi is right. It sucks but from a human point of view of someone in the setting the actions of the Coalition States make sense. Yes they are bullies driven by fear but this is a natural human response. Len and Giant I get what youre trying to say but you're coming at it from the wrong place. You're not looking at the human factors, you're both removed from the situation and saying "this is how it should be" or "why didn't it happen like this?"
The fact is that it didnt, the events as they transpired made sense. If it a film people could follow it, it would make sense, and it would be that simple.
I'm not even going to try to point out all my points anymore because I kind of think this is more about picking a side and rooting for your team than it is considering all the facts of the situation. When you pick and choose the facts you distort the truth. That in and of itself should kind of be an indication of human nature and the tensions at play here. If you can get so worked up trying to vilify the CS and justify Tolkeen (when at least the CS supporters are saying "both sides were wrong") then that something you should really stop and think about. Reach the letters to the wife and ask yourself... have you ever seen a Stormtrooper write home to his family? The CS aren't SUPPOSED to be faceless evil monsters, they're people and as such they're frustratingly grey and not prone to march to their deaths without what they feel is a good and justified reason!
Present them in your game however you like, let them twirl their mustaches and shoot every man woman and D-Bee child without a second thought if thats what you think is fun.
BUT in the setting as it is presented in R:UE and in the books I have read the CS are not JUST soulless killing machines. They have committed horrific acts but if a CS Soldier finds herself standing over a weeping D-Bee child in a town that she's been ordered to exterminate... she can still walk away. She can't bring back his parents but she can hide him or walk away. They're still PEOPLE. The whole problem here is that you guys have these idealistic notions of war and believe that you can eliminate a threat without purging it completely. That is not tactically sound. Especially when the enemy does not cooperate. That's why after they kicked their asses they let them run away. They could've made a couple of hand signals and "release the hounds" on the survivors as they fled, but they didn't.
The whole situation sucks but both sides were bad guys but please at least take a moment to stop (everyone) and just TRY to understand where the other guys are coming from. I feel like both Giant and Lan are arguing and trying to look at the situation through a tunnel so that their ethics are not challenged and their world views (of the setting) are not shaken. Perhaps they do not want the complication of thinking "Maybe we shouldn't just open fire on any CS Soldier the GM puts in their game and that is their right BUT the antagonistic nature of their claims are creating conflict here and not representative of the organization as it appears in the cannon.
I'm sorry guys... after reading what you've said (and I really, REALLY want to read more on the Mechanoids so please let me know where to look) I am not convinced the CS are inhuman irredeemable monsters. If you're trying to help me get to a point where my characters won't second guess pulling the trigger on someone in game then you've failed. Even in games like Dark's I am going to give everyone a fair go and a chance to prove my preconceptions wrong. Maybe its a little naive and idealist... but sometimes understanding your enemy is the only real way to defeat them.
Akashic Soldier wrote:I have read all these posts but I couldn't be asked doing the quote thing as I am on an iphone and its a pain in the ass.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Giant2005 wrote:Pepsi Jedi wrote:Please note.. it need not be this way. If the invaders simply left, that's a perfectly ok result as well. No need to kill everything.
That isn't canon.
The Coalition Wars weren't based on conquest or liberation, the books stated several times that it was a "war of Genocide" (Coalition Wars 1, page 7).
Moving from your fortifications isn't a means of survival, it is a means of weakening your defense. If Tolkeen decided to pack up and leave, it would have just made the CS's job easier.
It's a figure of speech and flowery description. When Tolkeen lost and the survivors fled, most were allowed to do so. (( helps that the JLA got in the way of some of them)) Thousands of them have even transversed CS territory to end up in Lazlo. They wern't chased down every last man woman and child. Just the ones that didn't flee.
Genocide isn't a figure of speech, it is a very defined word with absolute connotations.
No it's your new trigger word that you're waving around instead of proving your point. "NAZI NAZI NAZI NAZI GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE!!!" They didn't do it. When the tolkeenites started to run, they ran just fine. One group were almost hunted down but the JLA got in the way. Thousands and thousands of them got away and even got all the way across CS teritory to Lazlo.
Pepsi Jedi wrote:No it's your new trigger word that you're waving around instead of proving your point. "NAZI NAZI NAZI NAZI GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE!!!" They didn't do it.
Rifts:Siege on Tolkeen Two, Coalition Overkill pg, 16 wrote:These new comers, known collectively as the Second wave have very clear ideas for how the war in tolkeen can be salvaged. Nearly all of them entail mass murderm destroying entire innocent populations, establishing what amount to concentration camps and perhaps even launching a D-Bee holocaust.
Rifts: Siege on Tolkeen Two, Coalition Overkill pg, 16 wrote:Overation Hardball : which plans to decimate Tolkeen's civilian populace. and Operation Spoilsport a campaign to insert hundreds of Special Forces teams spies saboteurs and assassins behind enemy lines. Together these plans shall advance General Drogue's and the like minded Second waver's sick vision of genocide against Tolkeen.
Rifts: Siege on Tolkeen Two, Coalition Overkill pg, 69 wrote:The first and foremost step in destroying Tolkeen according to General Drogue, is the elimination of Tolkeen's civilian populace.
Rifts: Siege on Tolkeen Two, Coalition Overkill pg, 70 wrote:Phase one is a scorched earth campaign to destroy every town village farm and honestead
Rifts: Siege on Tolkeen Two, Coalition Overkill pg,71 wrote:Phase two involves the reintroduction of that pre-Rifts insturment of genocide, the concentration camp
Rifts: Siege on Tolkeen Two, Coalition Overkill pg, 18 wrote:Emporer Prosek is willing to give the second wave its chance, and see what a genocidal approach can do.
Killer Cyborg wrote:Good post, Lenwen.
Bad Mojo wrote:Seriously, good post Lenwen.
PN (sorry, having trouble with getting quotes to work with the wall of text), tolkeen DID try to negotiate with the CS by sending them diplomat. The CS returned him(her?) in a bodybag.