How Would You Try To Destroy the Xiticix?

[Tor]

If you used artillery or LRMs to nuke the towers and anything that came out would they eventually just spread further underground and never fly?

[Blue_Lion]

If you used artillery or LRMs to nuke the towers and anything that came out would they eventually just spread further underground and never fly?

Giving the size of the towers/colony it would be hard to maintain a 100% coverage to stop a swarm. Would require insane amount of LRM batteries and cannons to try that. I doubt even the CS has that much fire power to bring to the table. Mass producing large amounts of anti air mines does seam to be easy to do than large amounts of LRM and they can be deployed and all remotely armed before the main strike against the queens and hatcheries.

[say652]

I would let my group play two of their strongest characters and then gm the bugs to the best of their abilities in my attempt to kill them.

[Blue_Lion]

I would let my group play two of their strongest characters and then gm the bugs to the best of their abilities in my attempt to kill them.

My strongest charter can not die.

[Hotrod]

On a related note, can Xiticix hurt and kill vampires?

[flatline]

Words meaning changes over time.

at some point, if a word is used incorrectly often enough by enough people, the old definition becomes incorrect. languages evolve. otherwise we'd all be speaking pre-victorian english still

That's true in casual conversation, but almost completely untrue in the contexts where the terms were originally assigned meaning.

For instance, "begs the question" in casual conversation has an entirely different meaning than in philosophical or logical discussions where the term was originally coined. And you will still be called out if you use it incorrectly in those contexts even though it's totally acceptable in casual conversation.

A similar example, but this time from Chemistry, is "flammable" vs "imflammable" vs "inflammable"...

--flatline

[Svartalf]

On a related note, can Xiticix hurt and kill vampires?

I guess their tk rifle can hurt a vamp, but they don't use the special attacks that play on vamp vulnerability, so they can't kill them.
OTOH, I don't think a vamp can do wors than killl xiticix, their insectile physiology probably makes them immune to being turned into the undead.

[Library Ogre]

How about we NOT have a pissing contest about who is the most accurate user of the most correct version of a word here?

Because these are the Palladium boards, where half the dick-waving contests involve Merriam-Webster's dick.

Warning: Profanity. Mack

[Killer Cyborg]

On a related note, can Xiticix hurt and kill vampires?

They can pick up a stick, can't they?

[Killer Cyborg]

It is commonly used incorrectly.
Incorrectly IS wrong.

Words meaning changes over time.

at some point, if a word is used incorrectly often enough by enough people, the old definition becomes incorrect. languages evolve. otherwise we'd all be speaking pre-victorian english still

Apology accepted.

[Shark_Force]

On a related note, can Xiticix hurt and kill vampires?

They can pick up a stick, can't they?

not just that, but i'm pretty sure the sun still shines in xiticix lands.

they might need to spend all night stabbing the vampire to make sure it doesn't heal and run away, but they can totally do that.

they even have an advanced digging insect to open up their lairs quickly, and i seem to recall they have a tendency to put their resin all over the ground in territory that has been theirs for a while, which makes it *awfully* difficult to sleep in your native soil, i would imagine

[Nox Equites]

You assume Xiticix actually know the weaknesses of vampires. This is not a given. It might take them awhile to figure out what it takes to kill vamps. Since they denude the land in close proximity to their hives they have to go a long way to gather wood.

[Tor]

I guess the trick is: would a standard warrior know how to recognize a vampire and to pick up a branch to use against it?

Or would this lore be limited to more elite troops like Hunters or Super-Warriors who need to give orders to the troops to do this?

Inevitably somebug is going to discover it (if even by accident like throwing a vampire into a tree or watching humans do it) and the knowledge will make its way up to the intelligent Queens. But how effectively can Queens impart spcialized specific knowledge like this to the masses? How long could they retain it?

[Shark_Force]

that's why i suggested sunlight.

the bugs may not initially understand that sunlight will do the job. but it's a fair chance they understand the concept of things that heal themselves. and since the vampires will be doing that right in front of their eyes at a rapid pace, they won't be satisfied the vampire is dead until the vampire stops healing, and can be expected to continue "killing" it until they do (and they have supernatural PS iirc, so they shouldn't need anything that calls for ammunition).

which, assuming they're above ground, will probably happen as soon as morning comes and the sun burns them to death.

of course, if the vampire is "lucky" enough to be KO'd below ground, they'll just be trapped in an endless nightmare of being perpetually punched, bitten, crushed, stomped, etc (from what i can tell, the bug won't stop just because it's bored... that's the sort of thing a hive insect is great for, really). unless/until a vampire is killed above ground, and then there's a chance they'll figure out to haul the vampire up to the surface at some point.

[Tor]

would punch/bite/crush/stomp even work? I know they gained supernatural PS in world book 23 but they're not creatures of magic... nor supernatural creatures, far as I know

[Blue_Lion]

They more likely just to encase the vampire in rezin if it will not die. hard for a vampire to fight when you make him part of a wall. if he is fully encased he will have no leverage and not be able to mist form escape.

[Jesterzzn]

How about we NOT have a pissing contest about who is the most accurate user of the most correct version of a word here?

Because these are the Palladium boards, where half the dick-waving contests involve Merriam-Webster's dick.

You have to admit it is impressive when waved with proper emphasis. A bit limp wristed when used too often, I agree.

[say652]

Coerce an evil god or intelligence to give them freewill.
That ought to Shutdown the hive real quick wgen its everyman for himself.

[eliakon]

Coerce an evil god or intelligence to give them freewill.
That ought to Shutdown the hive real quick wgen its everyman for himself.

I am not sure that there are beings in Palladium (short of possibly the Old Ones) that have the ability to remake an entire species.

A Genesplicer or Genetech might be able to engineer a new version of them, but they could not simply transform all the current ones.

[Slight001]

Coerce an evil god or intelligence to give them freewill.
That ought to Shutdown the hive real quick wgen its everyman for himself.

I am not sure that there are beings in Palladium (short of possibly the Old Ones) that have the ability to remake an entire species.

A Genesplicer or Genetech might be able to engineer a new version of them, but they could not simply transform all the current ones.

never underestimate the power of the humble virus.

[eliakon]

Coerce an evil god or intelligence to give them freewill.
That ought to Shutdown the hive real quick wgen its everyman for himself.

I am not sure that there are beings in Palladium (short of possibly the Old Ones) that have the ability to remake an entire species.

A Genesplicer or Genetech might be able to engineer a new version of them, but they could not simply transform all the current ones.

never underestimate the power of the humble virus.

Sure....
But Palladium canon doesn't have such technology, nor is it officially 'feasable' (nevermind questions of if it could actually be done.)
So sure you can put in a 'proteus virus' in your game sure. But if your making stuff up with houserules your rather outside the bounds of what can really be discussed on the forums as 'ways to solve the problem' since that just allows us to handwave ANY solution "I invent a super virus that kills all the Xictix" while working is just as houseruled and thus was not suggested (after all its 100% effective and has no downsides...I said so!)

[Borast]

On a related note, can Xiticix hurt and kill vampires?

They can pick up a stick, can't they?

not just that, but i'm pretty sure the sun still shines in xiticix lands.

they might need to spend all night stabbing the vampire to make sure it doesn't heal and run away, but they can totally do that.

they even have an advanced digging insect to open up their lairs quickly, and i seem to recall they have a tendency to put their resin all over the ground in territory that has been theirs for a while, which makes it *awfully* difficult to sleep in your native soil, i would imagine

True, but if you have a box with dirt in it... The resin becomes moot. Or, the Vamp could use his (or her) SN PS to rip-open the resin, dig a hole, and drop the resin plug on top of himself as he takes a nap.

[Shark_Force]

pretty sure diggers can sense vibrations. smashing a hole through MDC resin seems like the sort of thing that isn't going to be terribly quiet, in any event, and the xiticix do patrol quite thoroughly. plus, the broken resin is likely to be visible if any xiticix come across it, and will almost certainly smell funny anyways.

[Jerell]

Hmmmm.... Maybe enlist a Sand Dragon to bury them/plug up their tunnels with some sand and then turn it into the solid magic MD sand that they do. Could probably bury quite a few alive, then teleport the heck outta Dodge.

[Borast]

pretty sure diggers can sense vibrations. smashing a hole through MDC resin seems like the sort of thing that isn't going to be terribly quiet, in any event, and the xiticix do patrol quite thoroughly. plus, the broken resin is likely to be visible if any xiticix come across it, and will almost certainly smell funny anyways.

No, it's not a spider web.
Besides, the probability of a patrol attacking a single person whom is otherwise not doing anything overtly hostile to them or the hive (unless he's climbing the towers) is almost zero.

[say652]

Several tw cloud of slumber gas bombs over the area.
Open a rift to the Fire Elemental Dimension.

Create a resin disolving solution. This one is actually uber valid. No hive no Bugs.

[Killer Cyborg]

If you want to bring technowizardry into it, a GM might allow TW bombs with anti-stone spells in them.
IIRC, that works on resin already to some degree.

[Shark_Force]

If you want to bring technowizardry into it, a GM might allow TW bombs with anti-stone spells in them.
IIRC, that works on resin already to done degree.

information about breaking free from the resin gun mentions some spells that specifically work.

@borast: i wouldn't bet on them ignoring anything unless it smells like xiticix. bear in mind that on their march through xiticix territory, the CS military still lost people to the xits testing how they would react to an attack... that sucks but ultimately doesn't inflict major casualties to an army of hundreds of thousands (well, actually, *ultimately* it probably leads to a lot of PTSD for the survivors who had to watch their buddy get dragged off to die, but at least it doesn't inflict immediate major amounts of casualties). to a single individual, if they kill you to test how you react, that's 100% casualties.

[Tor]

They more likely just to encase the vampire in rezin if it will not die. hard for a vampire to fight when you make him part of a wall. if he is fully encased he will have no leverage and not be able to mist form escape.

What will prevent the vampire changing to mist while they do this?

[eliakon]

They more likely just to encase the vampire in rezin if it will not die. hard for a vampire to fight when you make him part of a wall. if he is fully encased he will have no leverage and not be able to mist form escape.

What will prevent the vampire changing to mist while they do this?

If he is covered in resin while he is in a regenerative coma it will be hard. Though to be honest I think that it is more likely that the result would be the hive organizing a formal 'beat on the vampire until it stops regenerating' party (I.e. shift work to keep it in a coma. Probably leading to the discovery that sunlight kills them when they haul it out of the hive (while still beating on it mind you) and it melts at dawn.)

[Tor]

Vampires are hurt by magical MD energy blasts. Does telekinetic MD qualify as 'energy' ?

Would Xiticix punches or resin weapon stabs hurt them?

Seems the ability to beat them unconscious relies on being able to assess the need to use wooden weapons against them.

Idea for vamp strategy: run around in wolf form clutching a lit torch in your mouth (possibly aided by summon/control canine) and set fire to all forests. Sure, it removes sunlight cover, but you can just use rocks or burrowed tunnels for that. Removing a source of wooden branches for guys to hit you with is way more important.

Also: dump loads of dirt/ashes into rivers/creeks to stagnate all running water, divert streams away from people who might use them offensively or defensively. Make alliances with those Russian Water Demons to lurk in there and cause trouble for people who want to fill up their squirtguns.

[eliakon]

Vampires are hurt by magical MD energy blasts. Does telekinetic MD qualify as 'energy' ?

Magic weapons always damage Vampires. Arnzo Mercernary calls out that TW weapons can harm the Vampires which is the reason given that they use TW guns. This sets the precedent that yes TW guns magically generated effects count. This is repeated on Vampire Kingdoms Revised page 77 "Techno-Wizard weaposn that are not specifically designed to hurt vampires inflict half damage."

Would Xiticix punches or resin weapon stabs hurt them?

Xiticix have supernatural strength. There is question on if mortals with SN PS would harm a Xictic or not (and if it would do full or half damage)

Seems the ability to beat them unconscious relies on being able to assess the need to use wooden weapons against them.

Or use supernatural PS, of if that is ruled to not work to use TW weapons on them

<Irrelevant digression snipped>

And the vampire has the minor problem of needing blood. And they can not drink Animal Blood, and I am skeptical that they can drink what ever it is that the Xiticix use.

[Blue_Lion]

They more likely just to encase the vampire in rezin if it will not die. hard for a vampire to fight when you make him part of a wall. if he is fully encased he will have no leverage and not be able to mist form escape.

What will prevent the vampire changing to mist while they do this?

If he is covered in resin while he is in a regenerative coma it will be hard. Though to be honest I think that it is more likely that the result would be the hive organizing a formal 'beat on the vampire until it stops regenerating' party (I.e. shift work to keep it in a coma. Probably leading to the discovery that sunlight kills them when they haul it out of the hive (while still beating on it mind you) and it melts at dawn.)

I would disagree at a point even though they do not get board it becaumes a waste of resources to keep stomping. so they cover it rezin. The rezin is something they use for things they want to capture or are causing trouble for them in a normal fight. That is why they have guns that shoot it.

[Blue_Lion]

Vampires are hurt by magical MD energy blasts. Does telekinetic MD qualify as 'energy' ?

Would Xiticix punches or resin weapon stabs hurt them?

Seems the ability to beat them unconscious relies on being able to assess the need to use wooden weapons against them.

Idea for vamp strategy: run around in wolf form clutching a lit torch in your mouth (possibly aided by summon/control canine) and set fire to all forests. Sure, it removes sunlight cover, but you can just use rocks or burrowed tunnels for that. Removing a source of wooden branches for guys to hit you with is way more important.

Also: dump loads of dirt/ashes into rivers/creeks to stagnate all running water, divert streams away from people who might use them offensively or defensively. Make alliances with those Russian Water Demons to lurk in there and cause trouble for people who want to fill up their squirtguns.

Congrats you just made the land unlivable to your food supply.

[Tor]

Vampires are hurt by magical MD energy blasts. Does telekinetic MD qualify as 'energy' ?

Magic weapons always damage Vampires.

Telekinetic blasts from a magic weapon are not necessarily the same as a magic weapon.

Perhaps if we could find an example of a non-energy projectile attack harming a vampire with something that would normally not hurt them if it were not from a magic weapon?

Arnzo Mercernary calls out that TW weapons can harm the Vampires which is the reason given that they use TW guns. This sets the precedent that yes TW guns magically generated effects count.

Which non-energy guns from Arzno are we talking about here? If it was wood/water then those would be already-vulnerable elements, so I am interested in what specific kind of ammo being referened.

This is repeated on Vampire Kingdoms Revised page 77 "Techno-Wizard weaposn that are not specifically designed to hurt vampires inflict half damage."

Yes but... that could arguably be seen as referencing the weapon itself (ie being hit by it) rather than an effect it creates like a TK blast.

And the vampire has the minor problem of needing blood. And they can not drink Animal Blood, and I am skeptical that they can drink what ever it is that the Xiticix use.

Probably not, but at worst they just go rabid and fight less intelligently.

Could see vamps fighting Xiticix to defend their human communities.

you just made the land unlivable to your food supply.

Ah well... don't do it EVERYWHERE just in a radius around Xiticix Hives (where your food wouldn't stay alive anyway) to cut off their expansion.

[Blue_Lion]

there are no forest around hive to start with.

[Kagashi]

Vampires are hurt by magical MD energy blasts. Does telekinetic MD qualify as 'energy' ?

Magic weapons always damage Vampires.

Telekinetic blasts from a magic weapon are not necessarily the same as a magic weapon.

That is absurd. It is clearly a magic attack.

[eliakon]

Vampires are hurt by magical MD energy blasts. Does telekinetic MD qualify as 'energy' ?

Magic weapons always damage Vampires.

Telekinetic blasts from a magic weapon are not necessarily the same as a magic weapon.

Perhaps if we could find an example of a non-energy projectile attack harming a vampire with something that would normally not hurt them if it were not from a magic weapon?

Arnzo Mercernary calls out that TW weapons can harm the Vampires which is the reason given that they use TW guns. This sets the precedent that yes TW guns magically generated effects count.

Which non-energy guns from Arzno are we talking about here? If it was wood/water then those would be already-vulnerable elements, so I am interested in what specific kind of ammo being referened.

This is repeated on Vampire Kingdoms Revised page 77 "Techno-Wizard weaposn that are not specifically designed to hurt vampires inflict half damage."

Yes but... that could arguably be seen as referencing the weapon itself (ie being hit by it) rather than an effect it creates like a TK blast.

If you really want to have an in depth discussion of what is or is not a magic weapon.... I think a different thread would be the place to do so.

[Borast]

you just made the land unlivable to your food supply.

Ah well... don't do it EVERYWHERE just in a radius around Xiticix Hives (where your food wouldn't stay alive anyway) to cut off their expansion.

Wouldn't really work, if I recall, the bugs gain all their food and water from the hive itself (the food growing inside the hive).

Plus, Manitoba and Minnesota...well, let's say not much hope of you being able to kill that many lakes and rivers. Plus, remember, Big Muddy runs through the Twin Cities area.

there are no forest around hive to start with.

Depends on what you mean by "around."
I'm not sure about Minnesota, but parts of Manitoba and most of N/W Ontario is forest/bush.

[Deadboy Dakka]

Personally, I would just hook up Justin Beiber songs on a loop and watch the bugs kill themselves

But jokes aside, I think some E.P.W.s backed up more chemical and bio weapons then the Russians got would be the first stage. Use the E.P.W.s (also known as Nuclear Bunker Busters) to expose the lower tunnels and just dump metric frag tons of all sorts of nasty drek. Anything not turned to jelly by the concussive force or burned alive is gonna be having a real bad day with the chemicals being dumped in the hive.

Focus on containment of the survivors and just repeat as intel suggests is needed and you have a dang good plan. Yes, you will probably need to go into hand-to-hand combat or some CQBs, but this all assuming some faction in the Minion War does not take a serious hate on for the bugs.

[Alrik Vas]

there are no forest around hive to start with.

Depends on what you mean by "around."
I'm not sure about Minnesota, but parts of Manitoba and most of N/W Ontario is forest/bush.

I think he means within several dozen km/miles because of how the x-bugs spread their resin about.

Giving the size of the towers/colony it would be hard to maintain a 100% coverage to stop a swarm. Would require insane amount of LRM batteries and cannons to try that. I doubt even the CS has that much fire power to bring to the table.

Not to argue the difficulty of this, but how many, specifically, would you count as "insane amount of LRM batteries", if each batter could say, launch nearly 100 LRMs in about 12 seconds?

[Shark_Force]

it isn't how long it takes to fire. it's how long it takes to reload.

[Mack]

it isn't how long it takes to fire. it's how long it takes to reload.

Here's the only reference we're likely to find.

The CS Mark IX Missile Launcher Vehicle (Mercs, p148-149):
-- Carries 160 long range missiles
-- Fires 24 long range missiles per melee (would take 7 melees to shoot all of them)
-- Can be completely reloaded in 10 minutes

With those rates, to keep one vehicle constantly firing you'd have to put them in groups of six (1 shooting, 5 being reloaded). A group of six is reasonable, but the hard part would be the massive stockpile of missiles they'd consume. They'd use almost 5,500 missiles in an hour.

[Shark_Force]

it isn't how long it takes to fire. it's how long it takes to reload.

Here's the only reference we're likely to find.

The CS Mark IX Missile Launcher Vehicle (Mercs, p148-149):
-- Carries 160 long range missiles
-- Fires 24 long range missiles per melee (would take 7 melees to shoot all of them)
-- Can be completely reloaded in 10 minutes

With those rates, to keep one vehicle constantly firing you'd have to put them in groups of six (1 shooting, 5 being reloaded). A group of six is reasonable, but the hard part would be the massive stockpile of missiles they'd consume. They'd use almost 5,500 missiles in an hour.

one set of six is not going to stop a swarm. and is almost definitely going to cause a swarm. there are far too many exits to cover every one with a single missile launcher, and what are you going to do when the swarm decides to go attack everything around them?

[Alrik Vas]

They have more than six of them by now, i'd wager. Especially considering the time frame of Mercenaries. In any case, a mechanized group could have like 20 of these things for crying out loud. That's a lot of missiles all at once. It's perhaps, an "insane" amount.

I mean, look at how many BM-27's the Russian's not only produced, but had in service simultaneously (about 800). That was a mobile, multi-missile launcher. Lesser capabilities, but an old equivalent. the CS likely has about 100-300, if not more, of the Mark 7.

[eliakon]

A better question would be "how many LRM platforms does the CS have" (I know the general answer is 'lots' but numbers would be helpful) then another question would be 'how big of a stockpile of LRMs do they have' (this will have to be estimated)

[Alrik Vas]

I couldn't see it being a small number of LRMs stockpiled (likely more than 200k, likely way more)

[Mack]

it isn't how long it takes to fire. it's how long it takes to reload.

Here's the only reference we're likely to find.

The CS Mark IX Missile Launcher Vehicle (Mercs, p148-149):
-- Carries 160 long range missiles
-- Fires 24 long range missiles per melee (would take 7 melees to shoot all of them)
-- Can be completely reloaded in 10 minutes

With those rates, to keep one vehicle constantly firing you'd have to put them in groups of six (1 shooting, 5 being reloaded). A group of six is reasonable, but the hard part would be the massive stockpile of missiles they'd consume. They'd use almost 5,500 missiles in an hour.

one set of six is not going to stop a swarm. and is almost definitely going to cause a swarm. there are far too many exits to cover every one with a single missile launcher, and what are you going to do when the swarm decides to go attack everything around them?

Good thing I didn't advocate for only using six.

All I did was show how many would be needed to keep one firing at max rate. (Although I wouldn't necessarily use the max rate since 8 LRMs per volley is wasteful for taking out aerial targets. Probably limit it to 2 to 4 missiles per volley (depending on type) which changes the math.)

The next question (the one you're getting at) is how many groups of vehicles could the CS field and supply.

[Alrik Vas]

I'd say sustained warfare at the division level. That's, kind of what they go for, ya know. Of course, this is still Rifts and you can't have unlimited resources (as much as it is suggested by many that the CS has exactly that). But could they shoot volleys from a few hundred Mark 7's for days?

Yeah.

Would that deplete their stockpiles?

Possibly.

[Shark_Force]

i dunno. they had millions of spare SAMAS. a resource which is largely not considered to be expendable, and frankly i suspect the vast majority were spares.

if you accept that information, the CS may very well have an unreasonably large number of missile launchers.

however, i'm still not sold on them having enough to put a major dent in xiticix numbers if we go with the number of xiticix in the (imo) primary source, the xiticix world book. especially once the bugs figure out they should just spread out more, and possibly even start suiciding into the missiles (or shooting them down; let's say they have "only" 500,000 warriors, 1/3 of which have TK rifles. that's 166k of them that can shoot at missiles. now, not every one of them will be available initially, and many of their attacks will miss, but they don't all need to hit to destroy the LRMs coming in.

you would need to be firing a lot of missiles to get through their point-defence network (of hundreds of thousands of warriors with TK rifles). you might not even get the initial wave to land; even if "only" 10,000 warriors are outside at first, that's over 3,000 with TK rifles to shoot down incoming missiles.