Cold-blooded clarification

[dreicunan]

Well, Pepsi Jedi, if the stats from detox are instantaneous as you claim, then so is learning 7 new skills for their new OCC, since after all that is step two - BEFORE the stats are addressed. So, to be clear, it is your position that the surgery to remove the biocomp also imparts 7 new skills without any need to study them?

By the book? Yes. Which is a bit of a dodge since skills just magically appear with out any need for study all the time. If you apply a juicer rig to a person, by the book they instantly get to pick up tank driving, sniping, demolitions disposal... even if they never studied it in their life. By the book if you simply go around using your language skills for months on end, you can suddenly level up and spontaneously learn to be a professional ballerina. Pointing to one instance (out of the hundreds of identical cases) of the skill learning system being broken does not prove your point. It simply demonstrates that the skill system is broken.

Now sure, you can make a house rule to fix skills, and you can make a house rule to change how Detox works. But by the book there is no time to do anything between being a juicer and being detoxed. You can add time if you want, but that added time would not be something that is book supported, just a house "We feel this makes more logical sense to us" supported.

The Juicer wannabe makes it clear that slapping a rig on then when they save up to become a Juicer does not grant them the Juicer skill set without training, as they keep their own skills. Thus, by the book applying a Juicer Rig to a person in and of itself does not grant skills.

Once again, some people look at that text, see no statement on time given, and ASSUME that the post detox stats happen instantly, but the fact that the second step is choosing a new OCC and 7 skills, which logically would take some amount of time to learn, makes it completely justifiable to read the 3rd step as describing the result of a process that occurs over time. An amount of time that is left completely undefined, thus making EITHER interpretation, instantaneous or over time, a gm ruling and thus a house rule. That should be no surprise to anyone familiar with Palladium products.

[Blue_Lion]

Special class rules do not necairly over ride general rules.
In conversion book 1 some classes of mages from PF can instantly change classes and become TW upon entering rifts.

His point stands if you change class to juicer you instantly gain the skills of a juicer, as there are rules for changing class. The detox also does not include a time frame so it instantly happens. When you level up you can instantly gain new skills and HP, even if you never practiced for the skill you gain. Many things just happen when a condition is met and are not always logical.

[The Beast]

Well, Pepsi Jedi, if the stats from detox are instantaneous as you claim, then so is learning 7 new skills for their new OCC, since after all that is step two - BEFORE the stats are addressed. So, to be clear, it is your position that the surgery to remove the biocomp also imparts 7 new skills without any need to study them?

By the book? Yes. Which is a bit of a dodge since skills just magically appear with out any need for study all the time. If you apply a juicer rig to a person, by the book they instantly get to pick up tank driving, sniping, demolitions disposal... even if they never studied it in their life. By the book if you simply go around using your language skills for months on end, you can suddenly level up and spontaneously learn to be a professional ballerina. Pointing to one instance (out of the hundreds of identical cases) of the skill learning system being broken does not prove your point. It simply demonstrates that the skill system is broken.

Now sure, you can make a house rule to fix skills, and you can make a house rule to change how Detox works. But by the book there is no time to do anything between being a juicer and being detoxed. You can add time if you want, but that added time would not be something that is book supported, just a house "We feel this makes more logical sense to us" supported.

That's why I said to get rid of the OCC skill system and replace it with a point-based skill selection system back when PB had those "rule changes" threads awhile back.

Petty tyrants thrive when they have authority backed by vague regulations.

[eliakon]

Well, Pepsi Jedi, if the stats from detox are instantaneous as you claim, then so is learning 7 new skills for their new OCC, since after all that is step two - BEFORE the stats are addressed. So, to be clear, it is your position that the surgery to remove the biocomp also imparts 7 new skills without any need to study them?

By the book? Yes. Which is a bit of a dodge since skills just magically appear with out any need for study all the time. If you apply a juicer rig to a person, by the book they instantly get to pick up tank driving, sniping, demolitions disposal... even if they never studied it in their life. By the book if you simply go around using your language skills for months on end, you can suddenly level up and spontaneously learn to be a professional ballerina. Pointing to one instance (out of the hundreds of identical cases) of the skill learning system being broken does not prove your point. It simply demonstrates that the skill system is broken.

Now sure, you can make a house rule to fix skills, and you can make a house rule to change how Detox works. But by the book there is no time to do anything between being a juicer and being detoxed. You can add time if you want, but that added time would not be something that is book supported, just a house "We feel this makes more logical sense to us" supported.

The Juicer wannabe makes it clear that slapping a rig on then when they save up to become a Juicer does not grant them the Juicer skill set without training, as they keep their own skills. Thus, by the book applying a Juicer Rig to a person in and of itself does not grant skills.

The Juicer Wannabe is not the only person that changes class if they get a juicer rig.
By the book if you put a rig on ANYONE they change class. Just the Wannabe gets a better 'trade in credit' but that doesn't change the fact that you just instantly learn skills.

Once again, some people look at that text, see no statement on time given, and ASSUME that the post detox stats happen instantly, but the fact that the second step is choosing a new OCC and 7 skills, which logically would take some amount of time to learn, makes it completely justifiable to read the 3rd step as describing the result of a process that occurs over time. An amount of time that is left completely undefined, thus making EITHER interpretation, instantaneous or over time, a gm ruling and thus a house rule. That should be no surprise to anyone familiar with Palladium products.

Yes, you can make an argument that in your house you are adding time sure. But it is going to be a house rule. That's the point. You can't point to the rules and say that there is anything in canon that says that a person gets to keep their stats while not being a juicer and thus gets to use their juicer stats for the change.
The only way to keep your juicer stats for the change is if you change while a juicer. And then you run into the (non trivial) issue of your implants.

[dreicunan]

@eliakon: My argument is that either interpretation is a house rule, instant or over time.

More generally, I am actually a bit dumbfounded to see multiple people arguing that putting a juicer rig on someone instantly imparts skills. Doesn't HoH make it clear that the Coalition is producing Juicers without full training? If putting the rig on someone equaled instant skills, there would be no need for any training! They'd basically all be waking up after the operation saying "I know Kung Fu."

[eliakon]

@eliakon: My argument is that either interpretation is a house rule, instant or over time.

More generally, I am actually a bit dumbfounded to see multiple people arguing that putting a juicer rig on someone instantly imparts skills. Doesn't HoH make it clear that the Coalition is producing Juicers without full training? If putting the rig on someone equaled instant skills, there would be no need for any training! They'd basically all be waking up after the operation saying "I know Kung Fu."

The way the RAW is written and what makes sense is often at odds. Which results in the books changing things in later books... and of course then there is the fact that writers have the bad habit of just writing what they feel makes sense and ignoring the books, resulting in conflicting material.
The skill issue is a commonly brought up issue, but it is one that is unfortunately hard to address because it is smack dab in the middle of the prime munch-bait, aka class changing. Which while perfectly fine and has plenty of legitimate uses in normal games attracts munchkins and rules lawyers like moths to a flame. Thus the hesitance of Palladium to do a comprehensive skill system reform... there is no need (the system they have works fine except in edge cases), any changes will require altering lots of books, and it is likely to upset the game balance in unexpected ways until the ramifications are all worked out... which ends up meaning 'just keep putting one off, situational stuff' in for class changes where the RUE rules don't work quite right. (though it could be argued that now that RUE has come out and changed how class changing works that the juicer conversion, bionics, getting tattoos... and cold blood all have been retconned to comply with the new rules...but that is a whole 'nother thread)

[say652]

Ok House Rule Time.

Magic and Psionic classes keep isp/ppe and current spells/Psi Powers.
Doesn't advance until one level higher is achieved.
Doesn't gain new spells or powers.

Juicers, ummmm drugs are bad Mmmmkay so detox penalties apply.

Crazies, keep insanities lose Crazy attribute bonus.
*quick check just reroll and subtract from existing attributes*

Dogboys, eligible.

Amaki, ineligible.

Cyborgs, up to partial Conversion. Regrow missing pieces and all cybernetics and Bionics are lost.

If i forgot stuff please help with the house rule update.

[RockJock]

Looks good Say652. Pretty middle of the road. Most classes can become a Cold, but they stay with the "reborn" feel, and don't keep much of the old them.

[say652]

I have finally got around to making one of these characters, a Psi Ghost that became a Cold-blooded.
Though i added in a few more insanties.

[dreicunan]

Did you allow the Psi-ghost to keep the power of intangibility after he became a cold one?

[say652]

Yes. Don't see a reason it shouldn't. The psi Ghost description said they are basically normal humans with the mutant power and psionics, not supernatural or alien thus eligible. I did load it up with insanities though, because why not.