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Posted: **Thu May 07, 2015 3:57 pm**

Kagashi wrote:I may have missed it, but is there a canon bio or chemical agent mentioned anywhere? I could have sworn there was a HLS where there was one but the results were inconclusive. I guess the fact the bugs are still around, it didnt work.

ZK-12 from the Rifts Adventure Book 01.
It is used to wipe out a small hive, and it is pretty much utterly lethal
to Xiticx. The premise of the adventure though has that the PCs will destroy the stock pile of it and the scientist either dies or decides to never make bio-weapons again after it is almost used against all the DB cities in North America...

But there are ways to get it back if you try......

Posted: **Thu May 07, 2015 4:05 pm**

Mack wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
Mack wrote:Also, there was this solution.

Mass formation of FQ Glitterboys. Start on the edge of Xiticix territory, let the bugs impale themselves on the boomguns, then advance a few miles. Rinse & repeat. The key is to advance very slowly and cautiously. It's one of the only "attrition warfare" approaches that humans could use.

funny, i recall that thread discussing a variety of ways that the attempt to use a formation of glitter boys would ultimately kill a lot of bugs, but would probably either end with the glitter boy formation being crushed under sheer weight of numbers or retreating after killing a bunch of bugs on the border of bug territory.

which would most likely result in a retaliatory swarm from the xiticix.

Yea, I view it as more of a long term operation (many months to a year) to thin the bug's numbers. That's why the formation would have to be very judicious managing how far into Xiticix territory they go, and be ready to back up in a hurry. As long as they don't get overwhelmed, they should be able to kill the Xiticix at a rate that exceeds the bug's ability to hatch new ones.

And, of course, this requires a huge expenditure on the part of Free Quebec.

How many Glitter Boys are we talking here?
The Xiticx Rifle has a range of 4,000 the bugs come in swarms, fly very fast (penalty to strike there besides the fact that they can close quickly), Fly faster than the Gliterboys (Average speed of 82 mph versus a top speed of 60mph).....
To shoot down a swarm you would need to be able to shoot down enough of them that you can prevent them from EVER closing with you.....and I don't frankly see how that is possible with out having tens or maybe hundreds of thousands of glitterboys.... (The relative speed is important because it means that once engaged the GBs can not force a retreat

Yes I know the original thread had a legion of 2,500 GBs. But considering that once they start wholesale extermination they will be facing the full might of a hive (which depending on the math is somewhere between 10 million and 100 million warriors the ability to kill them for 3-5 rounds before they close with you is pretty moot. 2,500 GBs could, if really high level kill as many as 25,000 Bugs per turn, thus wiping out 250,000 bugs.....which means that the remaining 9 million plus are now in range to return fire. This will prompty result in the entire legion being killed, to a man, in the next round under a hail of TK fire. (if we just give 1/3 of the bugs TK rifles this is still 3 million rifles, on bugs with at least five APM for 15 million return shots....)

Any attack on a hive has to be done in such a way that they cant respond to the threat, or that you can wipe out that threat (now if you use the GBs to lure out a swarm.....and then use a nuke to toast the entire swarm for example that's a different story....) otherwise it ends up with "And then the bugs overwhelm the defenders with sheer numbers and TK rifle them all to death."

Posted: **Thu May 07, 2015 6:02 pm**

eliakon wrote:
Kagashi wrote:I may have missed it, but is there a canon bio or chemical agent mentioned anywhere? I could have sworn there was a HLS where there was one but the results were inconclusive. I guess the fact the bugs are still around, it didnt work.

ZK-12 from the Rifts Adventure Book 01.
It is used to wipe out a small hive, and it is pretty much utterly lethal
to Xiticx. The premise of the adventure though has that the PCs will destroy the stock pile of it and the scientist either dies or decides to never make bio-weapons again after it is almost used against all the DB cities in North America...

But there are ways to get it back if you try......

Doesn't sound like it's species-specific, or is the basic agent 'customizable', depending on who you want to kill off utterly?

Posted: **Thu May 07, 2015 7:04 pm**

taalismn wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Kagashi wrote:I may have missed it, but is there a canon bio or chemical agent mentioned anywhere? I could have sworn there was a HLS where there was one but the results were inconclusive. I guess the fact the bugs are still around, it didnt work.

ZK-12 from the Rifts Adventure Book 01.
It is used to wipe out a small hive, and it is pretty much utterly lethal
to Xiticx. The premise of the adventure though has that the PCs will destroy the stock pile of it and the scientist either dies or decides to never make bio-weapons again after it is almost used against all the DB cities in North America...

But there are ways to get it back if you try......

Doesn't sound like it's species-specific, or is the basic agent 'customizable', depending on who you want to kill off utterly?

Oh no it was more of 'this stuff will kill anyone you spray it on' A true weapon of mass destruction.

Posted: **Thu May 07, 2015 7:33 pm**

Its a new Axe fragrance

Posted: **Thu May 07, 2015 8:41 pm**

eliakon wrote:
Mack wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
Mack wrote:Also, there was this solution.

Mass formation of FQ Glitterboys. Start on the edge of Xiticix territory, let the bugs impale themselves on the boomguns, then advance a few miles. Rinse & repeat. The key is to advance very slowly and cautiously. It's one of the only "attrition warfare" approaches that humans could use.

funny, i recall that thread discussing a variety of ways that the attempt to use a formation of glitter boys would ultimately kill a lot of bugs, but would probably either end with the glitter boy formation being crushed under sheer weight of numbers or retreating after killing a bunch of bugs on the border of bug territory.

which would most likely result in a retaliatory swarm from the xiticix.

Yea, I view it as more of a long term operation (many months to a year) to thin the bug's numbers. That's why the formation would have to be very judicious managing how far into Xiticix territory they go, and be ready to back up in a hurry. As long as they don't get overwhelmed, they should be able to kill the Xiticix at a rate that exceeds the bug's ability to hatch new ones.

And, of course, this requires a huge expenditure on the part of Free Quebec.

How many Glitter Boys are we talking here?
The Xiticx Rifle has a range of 4,000 the bugs come in swarms, fly very fast (penalty to strike there besides the fact that they can close quickly), Fly faster than the Gliterboys (Average speed of 82 mph versus a top speed of 60mph).....
To shoot down a swarm you would need to be able to shoot down enough of them that you can prevent them from EVER closing with you.....and I don't frankly see how that is possible with out having tens or maybe hundreds of thousands of glitterboys.... (The relative speed is important because it means that once engaged the GBs can not force a retreat

Yes I know the original thread had a legion of 2,500 GBs. But considering that once they start wholesale extermination they will be facing the full might of a hive (which depending on the math is somewhere between 10 million and 100 million warriors the ability to kill them for 3-5 rounds before they close with you is pretty moot. 2,500 GBs could, if really high level kill as many as 25,000 Bugs per turn, thus wiping out 250,000 bugs.....which means that the remaining 9 million plus are now in range to return fire. This will prompty result in the entire legion being killed, to a man, in the next round under a hail of TK fire. (if we just give 1/3 of the bugs TK rifles this is still 3 million rifles, on bugs with at least five APM for 15 million return shots....)

Any attack on a hive has to be done in such a way that they cant respond to the threat, or that you can wipe out that threat (now if you use the GBs to lure out a swarm.....and then use a nuke to toast the entire swarm for example that's a different story....) otherwise it ends up with "And then the bugs overwhelm the defenders with sheer numbers and TK rifle them all to death."

The GBs would be at an additional disadvantage. Boom guns are direct fire weapons, and GBs must be on the ground to fire them. That means that the best way for them to mass their firepower is to come on line, shoulder to shoulder. The bugs can fly, so they can come "On plane" so to speak, with the normal axis of their planar formation going straight at the GBs. In a stand-up fight in the open, it's advantage: bugs.

Elemental approach: scout out all hive entrances, then get a bunch of fire warlocks to cast Rivers of Lava, pouring it all down their entrances and sealing them. Scout with Astral Projection to see where they're trying to tunnel to the surface, and have more rivers of lava waiting for them. Open up fissures down to below and pour more lava in. Bugs either die in the lava, suffocate, or starve.

Or hey, you could teleport a Zavor down there. They replicate every time they're hit with a magic weapon; if bug weapons qualify, then the Zavor will wipe out the bugs. This plan might have some second-order effects.

Posted: **Thu May 07, 2015 8:47 pm**

We need....CHUCK NORRIS!!

Posted: **Thu May 07, 2015 8:58 pm**

always comes down to glitterboys. Why?

"Fire a nuke down a bug hole, you get a lot of dead bugs"

In real life we kill entire ant colonies with molten aluminium.

If there was only some way to flood their tunnels with enough MD fire to bake them dead.

Posted: **Thu May 07, 2015 9:55 pm**

Again.
How many characters do you play at once. Seriously.
A well equipped party of maybe 7-12 members.
UberPowerful one and all. Could pull this off.

Posted: **Fri May 08, 2015 3:37 am**

say652 wrote:Again.
How many characters do you play at once. Seriously.
A well equipped party of maybe 7-12 members.
UberPowerful one and all. Could pull this off.

I had a char that could do it by herself... but the collateral damage would be pretty bad, as in yellowstone volcano bad, or Krakatoa bad.

but that's what happens when you open up with ortillery and or attempts to do a "limited" base delta zero bombardment on the locations of Xiticix hives.

Posted: **Fri May 08, 2015 7:39 am**

Thats my point.
All this call in the Space marine warlocks is redundant to the discussion.
Or nuke em. Yea that always works.

I play one character at a time. Js

Posted: **Fri May 08, 2015 9:10 am**

A single character approach:

I take a 10th Level Diabolist. He creates the following ward sequence: Inflict, Area Effect, Death, and Power. PPE Cost for the diabolist is 8 per phrase. He does this many times.

The diabolist then makes, but does not activate, one trigger alarm for each of the above phrases. PPE cost is 1 per alarm.

The area of effect radius starts at 60 feet for a 10th Level Diabolist. This range is doubled due to the more-plentiful ambient magic of Rifts Earth, to a 120 foot radius. This radius is then doubled again by the power ward to a 240 foot radius.

Using the appropriate glands, the diabolist infiltrates the hive and places these behind at central hubs, openings, nurseries, and anywhere else he can safely access. He also places and activates a trigger for each phrase a bit out of the way of regular traffic, where a single bug won't trigger it, but a lot of them moving together will. The next bug to disturb the trigger kicks off the party.

Every bug within 240 feet (about 75 meters up, down, and sideways) must roll to save vs magic at 16. 75% of them will take damage.

The damage is 2D6x10 for a diabolist of his level, but this is doubled due to the power ward to 4D6x10. As if that's not enough, the death condition will persist for a while: 10 melees for the diabolist, but the duration is doubled due to the magic levels of Rifts 10 20 rounds, and this duration is again doubled to 40 rounds. Every bug moving inside the radius will take this damage every 15 seconds.

If you add a second character to this with the powers of Astral Projection and Telekinesis, (or a psi-ghost) you can reduce the risk. Now you can position the trigger well out of the way. You exclude the second character from all the effects (but not the trigger) and he can activate the spheres of death deliberately. You could also place multiple ward sequences and triggers in the same locations to further reduce the survivors from 25% to 6%, 1.5%, 0.4%, 0.1%, et cetera.

Kill with the quill! This approach uses no expensive thermobaric weapons (do they even qualify as MDC?), no nuclear weapons and the residual mess they leave, no massive casualties, robot wave assaults, and no need for vast quantities of ordnance, exotic chemical weapons, or anything else of that nature. And no Chuck Norris (he's so over-rated, anywa- OWWW!)

Posted: **Fri May 08, 2015 9:34 am**

So the team is shaping up.

An Immortal Godling.
A Diabolist.
A PsiGhost (Would a PhaseMystic work instead? )

Anywhooo thats Three.
Keep them coming.

Posted: **Fri May 08, 2015 10:04 am**

Hotrod wrote:Kill with the quill! This approach uses no expensive thermobaric weapons (do they even qualify as MDC?), no nuclear weapons and the residual mess they leave, no massive casualties, robot wave assaults, and no need for vast quantities of ordnance, exotic chemical weapons, or anything else of that nature. And no Chuck Norris (he's so over-rated, anywa- OWWW!)

Good suggestion, though I'll toss out a couple caveats; the diabolist at 10th level is going to have some Wards Strength bonuses, but those might wash out with the likely save v. magic bonuses from high PE.

Also note that you might go with placing them, connecting them to a trigger ward... and having the diabolist force-trigger the wards. I don't recall if there's a limit on the range for that, but it would allow the diabolist to be at a much safer distance.

(for funsies, if you can temporarily disable one of the xiticix, you might also simply put the ward on a xiticix's exoskeleton)

Posted: **Fri May 08, 2015 12:14 pm**

Unleash Aggan-Wind from the Ulti-Max Deathstone.

Posted: **Fri May 08, 2015 12:27 pm**

Yessuh!!

a robot pilot? !?!
Joins the fray!!

Posted: **Fri May 08, 2015 12:35 pm**

Killer Cyborg wrote:Unleash Aggan-Wind from the Ulti-Max Deathstone.

Uh what? What's the story about that?

Posted: **Fri May 08, 2015 2:03 pm**

Svartalf wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:Unleash Aggan-Wind from the Ulti-Max Deathstone.

Uh what? What's the story about that?

It's a demon stored in the deathstone you find the PFRPG Tombs of the Gersidi adventure.
He's an air demon, similar to an elemental, and he can (iirc) suck the air from the lungs of everybody/everything in a mile area.

Of course, he'd a problem in his own right, but at least the bugs will get killed.

Posted: **Fri May 08, 2015 2:25 pm**

If your really wanting to get "no kill like the overkill"....
Go to phase world. Get yourself a ship with a Mass Driver.
Rift it back into earth space.
While your mercenaries in star fighters discourage the orbitals from interfearing
You drop rock on the bugs. (1d4x100,000 damage to five mile area will probably wipe out a colony. If not the 1d4x10,000 to the next five miles will help.)

(No I am not going to play the, to me silly, game of 'ohhh I can make an uberling that can single-handedly fight swarms of hundreds of millions of foes)

Posted: **Fri May 08, 2015 4:39 pm**

If you're good enough at sneaking, you can slather yourself in bug-stink and conceal tactical nukes (or some kind of TW custom, krakatoa-level magma bomb) in the hive, then sneak out and blow it up. One man with some kind of extra-dimensional storage could do this. I think the trick would be to set it in the queen's chamber so even if the whole hive doesn't go, at least you dealt with the egg-layer and the biggest nest.

At least, that's what I've heard. Totally never done that. /cough

Posted: **Fri May 08, 2015 10:29 pm**

Ab-Mech option: Wasps to thin out warriors. They have a better range weapon with infinite ammo. Trimming the edges won't start the swarm response if you kill a few dozen at a hive and move on to the next one in a random circuit. Besides it keeps them busy and they do not like being bored.

Once you have a few good examples of the enemy biology to work with use the Runners and Brains to design bio warfare weapons. Create dumb bots to deliver chem agents. See bugs doing kickin' chicken en mass.

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 1:19 pm**

say652 wrote:Again.
How many characters do you play at once. Seriously.
A well equipped party of maybe 7-12 members.
UberPowerful one and all. Could pull this off.

Again, which part of the Original Post did you miss where it was said:

Psiberknight wrote:assuming you were in charge of a large enough force to be a credible threat, how would you combat them?

What is possibly being done is using the large army rules from the rifter, and gaming a scenario out that way, where the Xiticix are the OpFor and the various tactics and units are the friendlies.
And I still think Total War is the only way to defeat the Xiticix. Since both Warriors and Super Warriors are going to take an average of 2 boomgun rounds before dying, I have no problem with glitterboys being on the line with the skelebots. The biggest problem is that you're going to need a lot more glitter boys than the books say that there are. 2500? more like you need 250,000 glitter boys, and the reloaders, side-kicks, etc, to go with them.
The only reason I suggested skelebots is because they are rather cheap to mass produce, can be highly effective when using the proper tactics, and you don't have to pay them. I would suggest arming them with Lasers, Particle Beams, or Plasma rifles instead of railguns though, simply so they do not need to rearm. They are nuclear powered after all...

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 1:50 pm**

Simon and crew charged a nest.After thirty minutes of bug crunching fun it turned into a death defying retreat.
Sooo I don't recommend the direct approach.

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 2:10 pm**

eliakon wrote:If your really wanting to get "no kill like the overkill"....
Go to phase world. Get yourself a ship with a Mass Driver.
Rift it back into earth space.
While your mercenaries in star fighters discourage the orbitals from interfearing
You drop rock on the bugs. (1d4x100,000 damage to five mile area will probably wipe out a colony. If not the 1d4x10,000 to the next five miles will help.)

(No I am not going to play the, to me silly, game of 'ohhh I can make an uberling that can single-handedly fight swarms of hundreds of millions of foes)

Robotech/Macross Reflex/Syncho technology would do just fine as well. 6 shots will take out all 6 main hives.

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 2:35 pm**

Those are lasers correct??

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 5:49 pm**

If the 'Total Warfare' concept is being used, as opposed to the small party 'Big Damn Hero' approach, there's a lot of options. Glitter Boys are good, as well as Skelebots for hive invasion, gatling lasers for clearing the sky of bugs, giant robots laying down suppressing fire as well as throwing fragmentation missile warheads as grenades (have to mix up the firepower a little, just for fun), bombs that release heavier than air gasses that drive out whatever the bugs breath dropped into the hives by skelebots. Once the gas bombs are in place, carpet bomb the entire hive until it's flat. Wait three days, then send in more skelebots with remote cameras to scout the tunnels and ensure everything is indeed dead.

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 5:57 pm**

bombs that release heavier than air gasses

This fascinates me. Bombs are things that explode. Do you mean canisters of liquids that vaporize into heavier than air gases or did you have something else in mind?

How big a volume of air can we displace?

Wouldn't the same design principles that keep hives from filling with rain water be effective against heavier than air gases?

--flatline

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 6:17 pm**

flatline wrote:
bombs that release heavier than air gasses

This fascinates me. Bombs are things that explode. Do you mean canisters of liquids that vaporize into heavier than air gases or did you have something else in mind?

How big a volume of air can we displace?

Wouldn't the same design principles that keep hives from filling with rain water be effective against heavier than air gases?

--flatline

Canisters that vaporize liquids into gasses is a good example. A lot of fire suppression systems use this; the gasses drive out the oxygen. As for volume of displacement, that varies by payload and distribution of the delivery systems.

As for the water defenses, that comes down to GM fiat. But I would say that if air can get in and out, so can gasses.

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 6:19 pm**

say652 wrote:Those are lasers correct??

Reflex Cannons and Synchro Cannons are energy weapons, but I dont think they are lasers. They are their own category.

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 6:49 pm**

Kagashi wrote:
say652 wrote:Those are lasers correct??

Reflex Cannons and Synchro Cannons are energy weapons, but I dont think they are lasers. They are their own category.

it may be my personal explanation but while reflex and synchro cannons are energy weapons (don't use ammo, or fire a solid projectile) they definitely aren't lasers or particle beams.

in my personal interpretation, reflex and synchro weapons (at least the beams) are based on a variation of fold tech. what they actually do is essentially affect a line (the beam path and area of effect) with a fold field that "jumps" anything in that path to no destination or if you want to look at it in a slightly different manner, it essentially works by pulling space out from under /around whatever is there, and restoring space without putting the "targets" back.
this works for me because in the scenes where something is blasted by the reflex cannon while it is clearly taking damage and being ripped apart, it is NOT melting like a laser would do, and the "shred" pattern is NOT from the closest areas first like you would expect from projectiles of some sort.

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 7:39 pm**

flatline wrote:
bombs that release heavier than air gasses

This fascinates me. Bombs are things that explode. Do you mean canisters of liquids that vaporize into heavier than air gases or did you have something else in mind?

How big a volume of air can we displace?

Wouldn't the same design principles that keep hives from filling with rain water be effective against heavier than air gases?

--flatline

Bombs don't have to explode though.....
The term bomb as used in aircraft ordinance means 'deadfall ordinance that does stuff' Thus cluster bombs, leaflet bombs, chemical bombs......
So a bomb is the proper term for an object that is dropped and releases/dispenses a chemical weapon.

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 7:40 pm**

Kagashi wrote:
eliakon wrote:If your really wanting to get "no kill like the overkill"....
Go to phase world. Get yourself a ship with a Mass Driver.
Rift it back into earth space.
While your mercenaries in star fighters discourage the orbitals from interfearing
You drop rock on the bugs. (1d4x100,000 damage to five mile area will probably wipe out a colony. If not the 1d4x10,000 to the next five miles will help.)

(No I am not going to play the, to me silly, game of 'ohhh I can make an uberling that can single-handedly fight swarms of hundreds of millions of foes)

Robotech/Macross Reflex/Syncho technology would do just fine as well. 6 shots will take out all 6 main hives.

True....but Mass drivers are easier to acquire :bandit:

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 8:00 pm**

Hmm... another approach:

Several of the labor robots in SB1r have the mining skill. Have a group of them tunnel underneath the hive (would have to collapse the tunnel behind them to remain undiscovered). Though I don't normally advocate nukes in Rifts, the 'bots could place several underneath the hive. This would give them a good chance of killing the queen and wiping out the eggs.

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 8:02 pm**

If the writers did not hand-wave the plot line the bugs are not that hard to take out. Their weapons are short range and they cant keep up with fast aircraft. The excuse of well there are millions of them seems to be the standard response.
Drop real nuke on the hive surface damage the bugs swarm out, drop second nuke kills the swarming bugs, bugs either hide or again swarm out, if they swarm out again drop a third nuke. Rinse and repeat as needed.

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 8:11 pm**

boxee wrote:If the writers did not hand-wave the plot line the bugs are not that hard to take out. Their weapons are short range and they cant keep up with fast aircraft. The excuse of well there are millions of them seems to be the standard response.
Drop real nuke on the hive surface damage the bugs swarm out, drop second nuke kills the swarming bugs, bugs either hide or again swarm out, if they swarm out again drop a third nuke. Rinse and repeat as needed.

So once you've used a bunch of nukes to kill the bugs that swarm out of the hive, how do you get the bugs that remain underground?

--flatline

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 8:19 pm**

flatline wrote:
boxee wrote:If the writers did not hand-wave the plot line the bugs are not that hard to take out. Their weapons are short range and they cant keep up with fast aircraft. The excuse of well there are millions of them seems to be the standard response.
Drop real nuke on the hive surface damage the bugs swarm out, drop second nuke kills the swarming bugs, bugs either hide or again swarm out, if they swarm out again drop a third nuke. Rinse and repeat as needed.

So once you've used a bunch of nukes to kill the bugs that swarm out of the hive, how do you get the bugs that remain underground?

--flatline

Depending on how you read the rules, and how many nukes you use you might get those bugs too....

Nukes do ludicrous amounts of damage to everything in their blast zone. Their is a high likelihood that they would pulverize the hive compleately (that whole X MDC per section thing). Thermal shock and radiation could also possibly penetrate the hive....if your eggs are all hardboiled your not hatching them......

And if you need to you can keep nuking the hives until they glow.....then nuke them in the dark if you have to....
But if you wipe out enough of the bugs you can go in with something else to clear it out (poison gas, robots, what ever)

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 11:00 pm**

flatline wrote:
Alrik Vas wrote:here's a question:

when you drop a MoAB on a hive from 30,000ft, do the bugs even know what happened? how do they retaliate?

Probably not, but considering that the majority of the hive is well underground, how much damage do you expect to do to the hive by exploding a bomb above the surface?

--flatline

Actually...

Yes, it would take significant damage. Drop a bunker buster on a fortified underground position, and the bomb itself isn't necessarily going to do much damage to the complex or the inhabitants. However, the overpressure wave is going to destroy significant amounts of the complex, and kill a large percentage of the hive's inhabitants to a certain depth.
The bomb doesn't even have to be a nuke.

For the poster that was suggesting high pressure CO2...instead of that, presuming oxygen uptake works the same way ours does, I suggest CO instead. It binds with hemoglobin *very* strongly, so strongly that only extreme medical measures can save a victim of extreme CO poisoning. Or...since they are insects that breathe through permanently open holes in their back...massive and copious amounts of water. How you introduce it is up to you... :lol:

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 11:08 pm**

boxee wrote:If the writers did not hand-wave the plot line the bugs are not that hard to take out. Their weapons are short range and they cant keep up with fast aircraft. The excuse of well there are millions of them seems to be the standard response.
Drop real nuke on the hive surface damage the bugs swarm out, drop second nuke kills the swarming bugs, bugs either hide or again swarm out, if they swarm out again drop a third nuke. Rinse and repeat as needed.

If writers did not hand-wave...we wouldn't have anti-planet weapons that can not reach a planet through an atmosphere... The average anti-planet or anti-city beam weapon in the 3 Galaxies has a 10 mile range in an atmosphere, and is mounted on a ship that can not enter said atmosphere without crashing into said planet...and the "sensible" atmosphere on a planet like good old Terra is 100 MILES thick.

Besides, drop a 50 MT strat nuke on the hive, and it's GONE...not that anything within 50km of ground zero is going to be safe to live in for the next century or so. (Cancer rates in Hiroshima and Nagasaki are STILL several times what they are through the rest of Japan.)

But...that is the REAL world...and what (if anything) does that have to do with the price of tea in ChiTown? :lol:

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 11:15 pm**

flatline wrote:
boxee wrote:If the writers did not hand-wave the plot line the bugs are not that hard to take out. Their weapons are short range and they cant keep up with fast aircraft. The excuse of well there are millions of them seems to be the standard response.
Drop real nuke on the hive surface damage the bugs swarm out, drop second nuke kills the swarming bugs, bugs either hide or again swarm out, if they swarm out again drop a third nuke. Rinse and repeat as needed.

So once you've used a bunch of nukes to kill the bugs that swarm out of the hive, how do you get the bugs that remain underground?

--flatline

Fair question. My thinking was that it would really lower the numbers to something easier to handle. It is alot easier to deal with thousands of bugs then millions. The numbers would be much easier for the CS to go in and finish the job, they could use astra projection and psi-ghosts to find where the eggs are and then troops could mop up. Or is this out of the question?

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 11:35 pm**

The Xiticix book lists the percentage of bugs that a massive CS bombing campaign would kill.
IIRC, it is not a majority.

Posted: **Sat May 09, 2015 11:49 pm**

Also book seems slanted to me, dont get me wrong it was a good read, but very bugcentric.

Posted: **Sun May 10, 2015 12:09 am**

also theirs a spell of legend that screws with an areas ability to grow crops. Maybe that would effect their power to grow that moss they eat?

Posted: **Sun May 10, 2015 12:40 am**

Borast wrote:Besides, drop a 50 MT strat nuke on the hive, and it's GONE...not that anything within 50km of ground zero is going to be safe to live in for the next century or so. (Cancer rates in Hiroshima and Nagasaki are STILL several times what they are through the rest of Japan.)

But...that is the REAL world...and what (if anything) does that have to do with the price of tea in ChiTown?

Can you back up that assertion about modern-day cancer rates in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Although victims of both bombings did have markedly higher cancer rates, I'm unaware of any study linking residual radiation from those bombs causing increased cancer rates today. In fact, the background rates in both cities, even in the parks at ground zero, are little different from any other comparable city on the planet. You'll find higher radiation levels in Denver than at either atomic bombing site.

Posted: **Sun May 10, 2015 1:57 am**

Riftmaker wrote:also theirs a spell of legend that screws with an areas ability to grow crops. Maybe that would effect their power to grow that moss they eat?

If you have access to the magic proficiencies in Through the Glass Darkly you can make some truly frighteningly large Vicious Circles (big enough to zap whole hives.....) that could help greatly

Posted: **Sun May 10, 2015 4:57 am**

Kagashi wrote:
eliakon wrote:If your really wanting to get "no kill like the overkill"....
Go to phase world. Get yourself a ship with a Mass Driver.
Rift it back into earth space.
While your mercenaries in star fighters discourage the orbitals from interfearing
You drop rock on the bugs. (1d4x100,000 damage to five mile area will probably wipe out a colony. If not the 1d4x10,000 to the next five miles will help.)

(No I am not going to play the, to me silly, game of 'ohhh I can make an uberling that can single-handedly fight swarms of hundreds of millions of foes)

Robotech/Macross Reflex/Syncho technology would do just fine as well. 6 shots will take out all 6 main hives.

I'd already suggested that early in the first page

Posted: **Sun May 10, 2015 2:47 pm**

Also, don't forget the Air Elemental trick. Not that this would destroy the hive, but it would certainly be useful for dealing with small swarms. (Note, all the below numbers assume average dice rolls.)

Have a higher level Air Warlock summon a Major Elemental.

So you end up with a flying, invisible, odorless, force of:

Or if you wanted each of them to reserve about half their PPE for casting spells, then:

Working together they could create a massive, overlapping Cloud of Slumber and then slaughter all the bugs who fail their save vs Magic.

Posted: **Sun May 10, 2015 7:39 pm**

Mack wrote:Also, don't forget the Air Elemental trick. Not that this would destroy the hive, but it would certainly be useful for dealing with small swarms. (Note, all the below numbers assume average dice rolls.)

Have a higher level Air Warlock summon a Major Elemental.
The Major Elemental can summon 14 Minor Elementals and 46 Phantoms
Each Minor Elemental can summon 12 Phantom Footmen
Each Phantom can summon 5 Phantom Footmen

So you end up with a flying, invisible, odorless, force of:
1 Major Elemental
14 Minor Elementals
46 Phantoms
398 Phantom Footmen

Or if you wanted each of them to reserve about half their PPE for casting spells, then:
1 Major Elemental
14 Minor Elementals
23 Phantoms
153 Phantom Footmen

Working together they could create a massive, overlapping Cloud of Slumber and then slaughter all the bugs who fail their save vs Magic.

Ive seen similar Air Elemental COAs in the past, but given the amount of time needed to do all the summoning and the levels involved of those doing the summoning, there might not be enough time to travel to the hive and do some real fighting. For example...what level are the Phantoms summoned by the Major Air Elemental? They have all level 1-4 spells, so judging by how elemental magic works, one might assume they are level 4, but Gargoyle Mages never learn more than 3rd level, regardless of their RCC level, so that is not a constant rule. Regardless, it does not list the Phantom's magic level, so we have to work with some assumptions. Even if we assume the Phantoms are level 4, Phantom Footmen spell they cast is going to last only 40 minutes (a measly 10 minutes if level 1). Given the small amount of time to execute the meat of the plan (summoning the Footmen, issuing commands, giving them time to not only travel to the hive, but to be effective in fighting), the Warlock would have to get fairly close to the hive and attempt to summon the Major Elemental (at a 37.5 percent success rate for a level 15 Warlock) and spend 2d6 melees of time doing nothing but concentrating on summoning in the middle of bug infested territory, with less than half the time being successful. If he fails, he cannot attempt till the next day and must travel out of the bug territory after taxing himself physically and emotionally.

Because of those odds, I do not think the risk (to the life of the individual Warlock doing the summoning) is worth the reward. However, using something like the Dome of the Elements from a Windjammer Frigate reduces that time to 1D6 melees and has a 75% success rate! Oh, and he can do it twice in one day, giving you 150% chance of getting at least one Major Air Elemental. So, carrying a basketball sized crystal into bug territory isnt all that bad a thing to do. The only LIMFAC is, you have to be that particular Dome's Captain or First Mate to use it.

Posted: **Sun May 10, 2015 7:53 pm**

Kagashi, that's why I prefaced it by saying it wouldn't destroy the hive.

On the upside, once summoned the Major Elemental can hang around for a week before it starts to get agitated. So the Warlock could wait outside of Xiticix territory. Since the Warlock has to be at least 9th level to summon a Major Elemental, he'll have at least a 22.5% chance of success (not including a ley line or nexus bonus). Odds are, within 4 or 5 days he'll succeed. And with some decent TW armor, moving through Xiticix territory will be simplified.

As for the casting level of the Phantoms, I agree there's an oversight there. Based on other examples I go with 4th level for them, but other GM's may come to another conclusion.

I agree that summoning/commanding can be complicated, but that's where the 14 (4D6 actually) Minor Elementals can help. All of them can be summoned at once by the Major Elemental, and they are not on a strict time limit. Explain the basic plan to the group of them (go kill bugs!) and send them on the attack. Each Minor Elemental acts as a 'squad leader,' summoning a handful of Footman assistants and using his magic as needed. Then do the same with each of Phantom the Major Elemental summons (head that-a-way and kill bugs).

Like I said, they are not going to wipe out a whole hive. But being attacked by invisible, flying, odorless, magic wielding creatures is going to give the Xiticix fits.

Posted: **Mon May 11, 2015 12:18 am**

I could destroy two hives with a single (low level) character.

Just needs to be able to pilot some sort of fast flier (SAMAS for example) that can go faster than they can fly. Fly right at the first hive and get them stirred up attacking them, then lead the defenders to another hive (who will detect the defenders from the first hive as invaders and retaliate).

Posted: **Mon May 11, 2015 7:41 am**

dragonfett wrote:I could destroy two hives with a single (low level) character.

Just needs to be able to pilot some sort of fast flier (SAMAS for example) that can go faster than they can fly. Fly right at the first hive and get them stirred up attacking them, then lead the defenders to another hive (who will detect the defenders from the first hive as invaders and retaliate).

The bugs from the first hive will just blindly follow your character to the second hive?

That seems unlikely to me.

--flatline

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