Native American OCCs

[Rimmerdal]

after the cataclysm when their noew "God" didn't save them they'd go back to the old gods. and the Old god's would happy with that maybe give them an earful, but be happy to have there worshipers back.

They would be even happier to gain worshippers from other lands and peoples.

See my answer to Dooms...

[Sentinel]

And thats my Point KC. WE should be. (Man am I going Coalition idealist fast...!)

People take the human race for granted. How many D-bee races are there? How many books dedicated to ALIEN inteligence..

I can see a pile of great ideas and classes IF the human we're treated like d-bees in the sense they had stuff that was just there...

the only logical way I can see it done is by cultural..

Now The cultural OCC....

is class specicfic to group of poeple. (Humans...D-Bee already have this in RCC.) As I said Vikings are Norse (from a specific region...Norway, scandinavia, Northern germany). so someone from here can be a Viking..a true viking..

Note I said true..Only true viking would have the favour of the norse gods is the reason. Now anyone can learn to fight like a viking...but would gain no abilities beyond skills.

(No Psi-weapons, Psi-shield or Imerviousness to cold. Nothing)

This holds true for ALL cultures..not just Northmen or Native..The IRish, Scots, English, India, Asian cultures (Like the Tibetian, Mongols, Tar Tar, Huns) each have 'Cultural' Character Classes all there own.

I'm looking at this more like choosing martial arts in N&SS.
Any character of any nationality (putting genetics aside for a moment), can select a martial arts OCC, and gets to then select a martial arts, and gets all the benefits of the style, regardless of whether they are Asian.
If you live like they do, train like they do, etc, you should get their benefits. There isn't some Superhuman Genetic structure in any of this.
In the case of Psionics (like the Mystic Warrior), well, if the race is eligable for psionics in the first place, then I don't see why this won't work still.

In regards to Indian OCCs, I don't see why being indoctrinated into the culture wouldn't be sufficient. If it's a matter of power levels, well, one could certainly find other OCCs to choose for greater power. If it's a matter of uniqueness, I think a Wolfen Tribal Warrior would make for a very unique character.

[Mudang]

Why would Norse gods favor scandinavian people? No one, scandinavian or not, believes the Norse myths to be truth at this time. It would be more likely that the Norse gods would seek worshippers from all peoples to increase their power.

Tradition?

Other gods would view it as poaching and Gods fighting it out would be messy. Mortals know it, Gods know it...atleast sane ones

This would only be the case if said gods were trying to convert those who were already faithful to another pantheon. Think about it.... most pantheons were abandoned by those who originally worshipped them and there would be plenty of potential worshippers up for grabs.

[cornholioprime]

No not really, what I think is stupid is naming something based on a people or civilization, like Native American, Incan, Inuit etc, yet anyone who wants to can have their OCC's. Saying that a Wolfen raised by indians has the same spirituality as an indian who's ancestors worshipped the way he did and have a tradition behind them is ludicrus and stupid beyond belief. I was originally going to say something like, I would say thats as likely as Martin Luther becoming Pope (I know martin luther is dead), but I didn't because I didn't know if the moderators would like that or not.

Without putting a Dog into this fight, I think that Rolling is spot-on when he says "don't call it a Native American O.C.C. if anyone can take it."

Just have the Gods make sure that only those of certain Beliefs AND Blood can take the OCCs offered.

After all, it's wouldn't be that much of a difference from Royal Kreeghor or Noro Psychic Warriors or Wolfen Quatoria or some such.

Otherwise, don't call it "special" if all you're offering is a "Difference without Distinction," as the old saying goes.

Those OCCs should have been more correctly labeled as "OCCs common to North America which most anyone can potentially take..."

[Rimmerdal]

And thats my Point KC. WE should be. (Man am I going Coalition idealist fast...!)

People take the human race for granted. How many D-bee races are there? How many books dedicated to ALIEN inteligence..

I can see a pile of great ideas and classes IF the human we're treated like d-bees in the sense they had stuff that was just there...

the only logical way I can see it done is by cultural..

Now The cultural OCC....

is class specicfic to group of poeple. (Humans...D-Bee already have this in RCC.) As I said Vikings are Norse (from a specific region...Norway, scandinavia, Northern germany). so someone from here can be a Viking..a true viking..

Note I said true..Only true viking would have the favour of the norse gods is the reason. Now anyone can learn to fight like a viking...but would gain no abilities beyond skills.

(No Psi-weapons, Psi-shield or Imerviousness to cold. Nothing)

This holds true for ALL cultures..not just Northmen or Native..The IRish, Scots, English, India, Asian cultures (Like the Tibetian, Mongols, Tar Tar, Huns) each have 'Cultural' Character Classes all there own.

I'm looking at this more like choosing martial arts in N&SS.
Any character of any nationality (putting genetics aside for a moment), can select a martial arts OCC, and gets to then select a martial arts, and gets all the benefits of the style, regardless of whether they are Asian.
If you live like they do, train like they do, etc, you should get their benefits. There isn't some Superhuman Genetic structure in any of this.
In the case of Psionics (like the Mystic Warrior), well, if the race is eligable for psionics in the first place, then I don't see why this won't work still.

In regards to Indian OCCs, I don't see why being indoctrinated into the culture wouldn't be sufficient. If it's a matter of power levels, well, one could certainly find other OCCs to choose for greater power. If it's a matter of uniqueness, I think a Wolfen Tribal Warrior would make for a very unique character.

Fact is your wrong...There are no White Medicine men. I'm not trying to be racist or pro-Indian..it's just a fact.has been one that for 100's of years. So coming of rifts or not that won't change. Is it right or fair? maybe not. Regardless thats how it is..how it will ALWAYS be.

Other cultures also have this 'protectiveness' for certain training.

[Mudang]

Technically, the book does not refer to them as "Native American OCCs," but as "Spirit West OCCs," and then as "Traditional Warrior," and "Shaman," OCCs.

[Mudang]

Fact is your wrong...There are no White Medicine men. I'm trying to be racist or pro-Indian..it's just a fact.has been one that for 100's of years. So coming of rifts or not that won't change. Is it right or fair? maybe not. Regardless thats how it is..how it will ALWAYS be.

Other cultures also have this 'protectiveness' for certain training.

"Hasn't happened," and "Can't happen," are two different beasts entirely. That said, Shamantic magic isn't something that is taught in Rifts.

[Rimmerdal]

Technically, the book does not refer to them as "Native American OCCs," but as "Spirit West OCCs," and then as "Traditional Warrior," and "Shaman," OCCs.

then that changes a lot...

One can apply a culture to it..that sounds better.

[Mudang]

My problem is it being called Native American. I would much prefer them being called Traditionalist OCC's or something to that nature. I totally agree that hey in the books it says that Wolfens can choose these OCC's thats cool a mutt turning into a mutt (wolf totem) thats cool, I just don't want them refered to as Native American OCC's.

Again, technically the book does not call them "Native American OCCs."

[Rimmerdal]

Fact is your wrong...There are no White Medicine men. I'm trying to be racist or pro-Indian..it's just a fact.has been one that for 100's of years. So coming of rifts or not that won't change. Is it right or fair? maybe not. Regardless thats how it is..how it will ALWAYS be.

Other cultures also have this 'protectiveness' for certain training.

"Hasn't happened," and "Can't happen," are two different beasts entirely. That said, Shamantic magic isn't something that is taught in Rifts.

and the reason I said is probably why...they are in a sense 'religions'.

[cornholioprime]

My problem is it being called Native American. I would much prefer them being called Traditionalist OCC's or something to that nature. I totally agree that hey in the books it says that Wolfens can choose these OCC's thats cool a mutt turning into a mutt (wolf totem) thats cool, I just don't want them refered to as Native American OCC's.

Again, technically the book does not call them "Native American OCCs."

Yes but technically it DOES also say that they are for Native Americans only.....and THEN turns around and says that they aren't..

[Mudang]

My problem is it being called Native American. I would much prefer them being called Traditionalist OCC's or something to that nature. I totally agree that hey in the books it says that Wolfens can choose these OCC's thats cool a mutt turning into a mutt (wolf totem) thats cool, I just don't want them refered to as Native American OCC's.

Again, technically the book does not call them "Native American OCCs."

Yes but technically it DOES also say that they are for Native Americans only.....and THEN turns around and says that they aren't..

What's your point?

[Rimmerdal]

Well I guess it all turned out well in the end...

Sentinel..You put a mighty fine thread..even if got derailed a few dozen times...

[Mudang]

Fact is your wrong...There are no White Medicine men. I'm trying to be racist or pro-Indian..it's just a fact.has been one that for 100's of years. So coming of rifts or not that won't change. Is it right or fair? maybe not. Regardless thats how it is..how it will ALWAYS be.

Other cultures also have this 'protectiveness' for certain training.

"Hasn't happened," and "Can't happen," are two different beasts entirely. That said, Shamantic magic isn't something that is taught in Rifts.

and the reason I said is probably why...they are in a sense 'religions'.

A religion that doesn't want new believers? Maybe you need to rethink that.

[Rimmerdal]

Fact is your wrong...There are no White Medicine men. I'm trying to be racist or pro-Indian..it's just a fact.has been one that for 100's of years. So coming of rifts or not that won't change. Is it right or fair? maybe not. Regardless thats how it is..how it will ALWAYS be.

Other cultures also have this 'protectiveness' for certain training.

"Hasn't happened," and "Can't happen," are two different beasts entirely. That said, Shamantic magic isn't something that is taught in Rifts.

and the reason I said is probably why...they are in a sense 'religions'.

A religion that doesn't want new believers? Maybe you need to rethink that.

That's why I said in sense. it just has the same feel to it. all that 'only the initiated can know this stuff' rules.

[Rimmerdal]

If you want to get into the nuts and bolts of religion thats fine but I would advise it in this thread.

However, generally speaking only judeo-christian and islamic religions activelly seek people to convert well and crazy groups but thats besides the point. Many of the eastern religions and native american ideals want the person to seek them out and not the other way around. Since you can't force people to be one with the earth and yadda yadda yadda it wouldn't help them out much to force people or rigourously go after people to convert.

No I wouldn't get religous on anyone. I avoid it mostly. especially here. You never know who is what and it's better that way.

[Sentinel]

And thats my Point KC. WE should be. (Man am I going Coalition idealist fast...!)

People take the human race for granted. How many D-bee races are there? How many books dedicated to ALIEN inteligence..

I can see a pile of great ideas and classes IF the human we're treated like d-bees in the sense they had stuff that was just there...

the only logical way I can see it done is by cultural..

Now The cultural OCC....

is class specicfic to group of poeple. (Humans...D-Bee already have this in RCC.) As I said Vikings are Norse (from a specific region...Norway, scandinavia, Northern germany). so someone from here can be a Viking..a true viking..

Note I said true..Only true viking would have the favour of the norse gods is the reason. Now anyone can learn to fight like a viking...but would gain no abilities beyond skills.

(No Psi-weapons, Psi-shield or Imerviousness to cold. Nothing)

This holds true for ALL cultures..not just Northmen or Native..The IRish, Scots, English, India, Asian cultures (Like the Tibetian, Mongols, Tar Tar, Huns) each have 'Cultural' Character Classes all there own.

I'm looking at this more like choosing martial arts in N&SS.
Any character of any nationality (putting genetics aside for a moment), can select a martial arts OCC, and gets to then select a martial arts, and gets all the benefits of the style, regardless of whether they are Asian.
If you live like they do, train like they do, etc, you should get their benefits. There isn't some Superhuman Genetic structure in any of this.
In the case of Psionics (like the Mystic Warrior), well, if the race is eligable for psionics in the first place, then I don't see why this won't work still.

In regards to Indian OCCs, I don't see why being indoctrinated into the culture wouldn't be sufficient. If it's a matter of power levels, well, one could certainly find other OCCs to choose for greater power. If it's a matter of uniqueness, I think a Wolfen Tribal Warrior would make for a very unique character.

Fact is your wrong...There are no White Medicine men.
I never said there were. In any event, I am also not talking about a people with whom the Indians have had a long and bad history with, but a people like themselves, culturally and spiritually, who can also be Shaman OCC (at least the description in CB1 says Wolfen can be Shamans), Psychics, Men of Arms, etc.
I'm not trying to be racist or pro-Indian..it's just a fact.has been one that for 100's of years. So coming of rifts or not that won't change. Is it right or fair? maybe not. Regardless thats how it is..how it will ALWAYS be.

Other cultures also have this 'protectiveness' for certain training.

Yes, but things do change.
It used to be impossible for whites to learn Wu Shu. That changed.

[Sentinel]

Well I guess it all turned out well in the end...

Sentinel..You put a mighty fine thread..even if got derailed a few dozen times...

After all the threads I've derailed, I can hardly complain.

[Rimmerdal]

Yes, but things do change.
It used to be impossible for whites to learn Wu Shu. That changed.

Native won't teach it to non natives..but that just indian Medicine Men. other magics would not be so heavily protected. But since the issues solved by others already no point in rehashing.

I would make his OCC skill set unique by changing them to fit a Wolfen..Besides Wolfen type magic could be interesting...I could have fun with that indeed.

[cornholioprime]

My problem is it being called Native American. I would much prefer them being called Traditionalist OCC's or something to that nature. I totally agree that hey in the books it says that Wolfens can choose these OCC's thats cool a mutt turning into a mutt (wolf totem) thats cool, I just don't want them refered to as Native American OCC's.

Again, technically the book does not call them "Native American OCCs."

Yes but technically it DOES also say that they are for Native Americans only.....and THEN turns around and says that they aren't..

What's your point?

<<gives MC wounded look>>

Well, *sniff* I was just pointing out good ol' fashioned Rifts Doublespeak *sniff*

[Mudang]

I'ma mess you up yo'.

[Sentinel]

Just to bring a sense of Canonical closure to the topic, Rifts Conversion Book One, Revised, states that Wolfen may select Native American OCCs, including the Shaman. "Any of the American Indian OCCs".
Page 78, under Magic, and Available OCCs: Rifts.

[Mudang]

I need to get the revised version.

[Sentinel]

I need to get the revised version.

I am glad to have both versions.

[Sentinel]

Just to bring a sense of Canonical closure to the topic, Rifts Conversion Book One, Revised, states that Wolfen may select Native American OCCs, including the Shaman. "Any of the American Indian OCCs".
Page 78, under Magic, and Available OCCs: Rifts.

Now, Does that conclude this debate ?

I dunno.
I did like reading the opposite opinions from mine though: they forced me to think really deeply about my own position. In turn, that led me to really look at the Wolfen description, and see if maybe I was reading too much into them. Then I found what I was looking for and had previously missed.

[devillin]

After rereading parts of Spirit West, I am now of the opinion that none of the native american OCCs are restricted to just native americans.

On page 33 it starts out by saying that the traditional OCCs are only available to traditionalists and/or pure ones who are of Native American descent. But at the end of the section, it says, and I quote, "The only exceptions are people who share their (or similar) beliefs...." Thus anyone accepting the beliefs, ways, and reverence for Spirits could take a Native American OCC.

Sheesh, I'm reading all these, and you folks are still getting it all wrong. First, from page 27, under Tribal Note:
Among many tribes and factions (not all), other races, including whites and D-bees, are welcome to live with them as equals, provided they respect and honor the spirits and religiously follow the Traditional Native American customs and way of life. These individuals have all the same rights as full-blooded Nat.Amer, although they can never assume the mantle of Chief. However, no matter how dedicated to the old ways these non-Indian people may be, they do not share the bond with the spirits and gods as "The Chosen People." This means they cannot select any of the Native American OCCs or ever hope to be a Shaman. However, they can use fetishes given to them as gifts and may select an animal totem with full benefits of the mystical bonuses.
OCCs available to non-Indian tribesmen are limited to the likes of Tribal Warrior, Wilderness Scout, Mystic.....

Second, as to the quote above, it is taken out of context. The section is a listing of what OCCs a Traditional Native American can take, not a listing of what OCCs non-Indians can take. The selection starts out:
Native Americans are human and as such can technically select any OCC available to human beings. However, because of their unique beliefs, culture, and ties to the spirit world, most modern OCCs will be unacceptable and even abhorrent to most Traditionalist and Pure Ones.
Other parts include:
To select these uniquely NatAmer OCCs, the character must be a Traditionalist or Pure One -- an individual who holds the old teachings dear, embraces the world of spirits and the Circle of Life, accepts magic, and is of Native American descent (can be of mixed heritage, provided he or she follows the tradional NatAmer customs and anti-tech lifestyle).

The selection, which the quote above is spun from, then goes on to say:
[i]Only characters who are "true believers", with a relatively pure spirit potential, can interact with the ancient Indian spirits and gods on the level neccesary to grant them the special powers and spiritual relationship that these occupations provide. Thus the Indian OCCs listed below and described as follows are exclusive to Native Americans. The only exceptions are people who share their (or similar) beliefs, including some Pacific Island societies, Australian aborigines, African bushmen, hermits, monks, and a few other isolated or religious societies with primal beliefs centering around spirits.

There you go, fair and balanced, with no spin. In other words, if you are from the Samoan Islands, Africa, or are half-Indian/half-(black, white, hispanic, chinese) you can be a Native American OCC with no penalties. If you are an adopted Wolfen, Quick-flex, PSi-stalker, whatever, you can never be anytime more than a Tribal Warrior. You can get the benefits of having a totem, but that is it. It can't be spelled out any clearer.

As for the Wendigo, it should be noted that not only are they closer to the Native American Spirits and Gods than the Native Americans themselves, they are also allies and emmisaries from the spirits. In a lot of cases, they are the guardians of the portals that lead to the Spirit Realm. For all that the Wendigos do for them, I would hope that the spirits would grant a little of their power and thanks.

[devillin]

Technically, the book does not refer to them as "Native American OCCs," but as "Spirit West OCCs," and then as "Traditional Warrior," and "Shaman," OCCs.

What book are reading? The OCCs are referred to multiple times as either Indian or Native American all throughout the book. pg26 referring to Modern Indians: They can be any OCC available to humans (excluding the Traditional Indian ones of course). PG27: Traditionalists can only select the NAtive American OCCs described in this book... Same page: This means they cannot select any of the Native American OCCs or ever hope to be a Shaman. Pg28: ...can never select a Traditional Indian OCC. Or pg 29: The only OCCs available to Pure Ones are the Native American OCCs described in this book. Pg30: Renegades can only select the Traditional Native American OCC of Tribal Warrior. I can keep going if you wish. Everytime the OCCs are mentioned, they are qualified as either Traditional Indian or Native American, or both.

[devillin]

Just to bring a sense of Canonical closure to the topic, Rifts Conversion Book One, Revised, states that Wolfen may select Native American OCCs, including the Shaman. "Any of the American Indian OCCs".
Page 78, under Magic, and Available OCCs: Rifts.

What does it say about other racial groups? It kind of makes me wonder if it was a matter of the spirits (in game) changing their minds, or Palladium deciding to take some of the uniqueness away from individual groups. Anything said about the Aboriginal OCCs from Australia?

Linwood

[Mudang]

Technically, the book does not refer to them as "Native American OCCs," but as "Spirit West OCCs," and then as "Traditional Warrior," and "Shaman," OCCs.

What book are reading? The OCCs are referred to multiple times as either Indian or Native American all throughout the book. pg26 referring to Modern Indians: They can be any OCC available to humans (excluding the Traditional Indian ones of course). PG27: Traditionalists can only select the NAtive American OCCs described in this book... Same page: This means they cannot select any of the Native American OCCs or ever hope to be a Shaman. Pg28: ...can never select a Traditional Indian OCC. Or pg 29: The only OCCs available to Pure Ones are the Native American OCCs described in this book. Pg30: Renegades can only select the Traditional Native American OCC of Tribal Warrior. I can keep going if you wish. Everytime the OCCs are mentioned, they are qualified as either Traditional Indian or Native American, or both.

Fluff text, nothing more. The groups of OCCs are labeled as I said.

[Rimmerdal]

is class specicfic to group of poeple. (Humans...D-Bee already have this in RCC.) As I said Vikings are Norse (from a specific region...Norway, scandinavia, Northern germany). so someone from here can be a Viking..a true viking..

Note I said true..Only true viking would have the favour of the norse gods is the reason. Now anyone can learn to fight like a viking...but would gain no abilities beyond skills.

(No Psi-weapons, Psi-shield or Imerviousness to cold. Nothing)

Why would Norse gods favor scandinavian people? No one, scandinavian or not, believes the Norse myths to be truth at this time. It would be more likely that the Norse gods would seek worshippers from all peoples to increase their power.

I hate to tell You guy's, But there are those within the United States and the rest of the world that Believe in the Old Norse Gods. There are Clans of Norse Men here in Utah. Truthfully I Follow the Norse Path, and I am a Member of a Clan. Saying no one Believes in the Norse Mythology is Wrong, There are Those of use who do Believe in them. In Norway it is a Fully Legal Religion and in most Parts of Scandinavia it is still Practiced.
Be Well!

Interesting to know, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

Well will call this a draw Via fluff....?

[Mudang]

Sheesh, I'm reading all these, and you folks are still getting it all wrong. First, from page 27, under Tribal Note:
Among many tribes and factions (not all), other races, including whites and D-bees, are welcome to live with them as equals, provided they respect and honor the spirits and religiously follow the Traditional Native American customs and way of life. These individuals have all the same rights as full-blooded Nat.Amer, although they can never assume the mantle of Chief. However, no matter how dedicated to the old ways these non-Indian people may be, they do not share the bond with the spirits and gods as "The Chosen People." This means they cannot select any of the Native American OCCs or ever hope to be a Shaman. However, they can use fetishes given to them as gifts and may select an animal totem with full benefits of the mystical bonuses.
OCCs available to non-Indian tribesmen are limited to the likes of Tribal Warrior, Wilderness Scout, Mystic.....

Reguardless, this is not what it says on page 33 or even in CB1 revised.

The selection, which the quote above is spun from, then goes on to say:
Only characters who are "true believers", with a relatively pure spirit potential, can interact with the ancient Indian spirits and gods on the level neccesary to grant them the special powers and spiritual relationship that these occupations provide. Thus the Indian OCCs listed below and described as follows are exclusive to Native Americans. The only exceptions are people who share their (or similar) beliefs, including some Pacific Island societies, Australian aborigines, African bushmen, hermits, monks, and a few other isolated or religious societies with primal beliefs centering around spirits.

There you go, fair and balanced, with no spin. In other words, if you are from the Samoan Islands, Africa, or are half-Indian/half-(black, white, hispanic, chinese) you can be a Native American OCC with no penalties. If you are an adopted Wolfen, Quick-flex, PSi-stalker, whatever, you can never be anytime more than a Tribal Warrior. You can get the benefits of having a totem, but that is it. It can't be spelled out any clearer.

Your interpretation is poor. The listing of other cultures that can take spirit west OCCs is just a list of examples, not a list of all of those who can take said OCCs. Are you really surprised that the book contradicts itself?

[cornholioprime]

After rereading parts of Spirit West, I am now of the opinion that none of the native american OCCs are restricted to just native americans.

On page 33 it starts out by saying that the traditional OCCs are only available to traditionalists and/or pure ones who are of Native American descent. But at the end of the section, it says, and I quote, "The only exceptions are people who share their (or similar) beliefs...." Thus anyone accepting the beliefs, ways, and reverence for Spirits could take a Native American OCC.

Sheesh, I'm reading all these, and you folks are still getting it all wrong. First, from page 27, under Tribal Note:
Among many tribes and factions (not all), other races, including whites and D-bees, are welcome to live with them as equals, provided they respect and honor the spirits and religiously follow the Traditional Native American customs and way of life. These individuals have all the same rights as full-blooded Nat.Amer, although they can never assume the mantle of Chief. However, no matter how dedicated to the old ways these non-Indian people may be, they do not share the bond with the spirits and gods as "The Chosen People." This means they cannot select any of the Native American OCCs or ever hope to be a Shaman. However, they can use fetishes given to them as gifts and may select an animal totem with full benefits of the mystical bonuses.
OCCs available to non-Indian tribesmen are limited to the likes of Tribal Warrior, Wilderness Scout, Mystic.....

Second, as to the quote above, it is taken out of context. The section is a listing of what OCCs a Traditional Native American can take, not a listing of what OCCs non-Indians can take. The selection starts out:
Native Americans are human and as such can technically select any OCC available to human beings. However, because of their unique beliefs, culture, and ties to the spirit world, most modern OCCs will be unacceptable and even abhorrent to most Traditionalist and Pure Ones.
Other parts include:
To select these uniquely NatAmer OCCs, the character must be a Traditionalist or Pure One -- an individual who holds the old teachings dear, embraces the world of spirits and the Circle of Life, accepts magic, and is of Native American descent (can be of mixed heritage, provided he or she follows the tradional NatAmer customs and anti-tech lifestyle).

The selection, which the quote above is spun from, then goes on to say:
[i]Only characters who are "true believers", with a relatively pure spirit potential, can interact with the ancient Indian spirits and gods on the level neccesary to grant them the special powers and spiritual relationship that these occupations provide. Thus the Indian OCCs listed below and described as follows are exclusive to Native Americans. The only exceptions are people who share their (or similar) beliefs, including some Pacific Island societies, Australian aborigines, African bushmen, hermits, monks, and a few other isolated or religious societies with primal beliefs centering around spirits.

There you go, fair and balanced, with no spin. In other words, if you are from the Samoan Islands, Africa, or are half-Indian/half-(black, white, hispanic, chinese) you can be a Native American OCC with no penalties. If you are an adopted Wolfen, Quick-flex, PSi-stalker, whatever, you can never be anytime more than a Tribal Warrior. You can get the benefits of having a totem, but that is it. It can't be spelled out any clearer.

As for the Wendigo, it should be noted that not only are they closer to the Native American Spirits and Gods than the Native Americans themselves, they are also allies and emmisaries from the spirits. In a lot of cases, they are the guardians of the portals that lead to the Spirit Realm. For all that the Wendigos do for them, I would hope that the spirits would grant a little of their power and thanks.

Well read/said, Devillin.

Context is ALWAYS the key.

If these ar as you say then the NA O.C.C.s are indeed restricted, in the main, to Native Americans.....

[RockJock]

Maybe I'm smoking crack, but doesn't it say somewhere in the Fetish descriptions in Spirit West that a honored friend who helps nature, the spirits and the tribe can be gifted a fetish?


On a side note, being born half or fully Native American doesn't mean you are considered one by the tribe. Different tribes have different conditions and rituals to be considered part of the tribe. In some cases the father, or a male relative must petetion for the child to join the tribe. This occurs even today revolving around the legal issues of tribal membership. So the Spirits might consider you acceptable, but your tribal elders may not.

[Sir Blayse]

Sentinel Posted: 08 Jul 2005 08:01 Post subject: Native American OCCs

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would you allow a Wolfen to be able to choose an Indian OCC from Spirit West, such as the Totem Warrior? How about an Elf?
Or, for that matter, any non-human race that otherwise lived as a Traditionalist or Pure One?

Wolfen would seem to follow a more viking or roman appearance in culture. The Coyles or Kankoran would probably be more tribal.

As for elves, probably only the ones from South America would have a similiar enough belief.

Traditionalist or Pure One, no.

But as always up to the GM.

Later[/b]

[Sentinel]

Just to bring a sense of Canonical closure to the topic, Rifts Conversion Book One, Revised, states that Wolfen may select Native American OCCs, including the Shaman. "Any of the American Indian OCCs".
Page 78, under Magic, and Available OCCs: Rifts.

What does it say about other racial groups? It kind of makes me wonder if it was a matter of the spirits (in game) changing their minds, or Palladium deciding to take some of the uniqueness away from individual groups. Anything said about the Aboriginal OCCs from Australia?

Linwood

I only looked for Wolfen. I would think Aborigines would be covered in Australia. I'll check later: right now I have to construct my Wolfen Mystic Warrior.

[Rimmerdal]

After rereading parts of Spirit West, I am now of the opinion that none of the native american OCCs are restricted to just native americans.

On page 33 it starts out by saying that the traditional OCCs are only available to traditionalists and/or pure ones who are of Native American descent. But at the end of the section, it says, and I quote, "The only exceptions are people who share their (or similar) beliefs...." Thus anyone accepting the beliefs, ways, and reverence for Spirits could take a Native American OCC.

Sheesh, I'm reading all these, and you folks are still getting it all wrong. First, from page 27, under Tribal Note:
Among many tribes and factions (not all), other races, including whites and D-bees, are welcome to live with them as equals, provided they respect and honor the spirits and religiously follow the Traditional Native American customs and way of life. These individuals have all the same rights as full-blooded Nat.Amer, although they can never assume the mantle of Chief. However, no matter how dedicated to the old ways these non-Indian people may be, they do not share the bond with the spirits and gods as "The Chosen People." This means they cannot select any of the Native American OCCs or ever hope to be a Shaman. However, they can use fetishes given to them as gifts and may select an animal totem with full benefits of the mystical bonuses.
OCCs available to non-Indian tribesmen are limited to the likes of Tribal Warrior, Wilderness Scout, Mystic.....

Second, as to the quote above, it is taken out of context. The section is a listing of what OCCs a Traditional Native American can take, not a listing of what OCCs non-Indians can take. The selection starts out:
Native Americans are human and as such can technically select any OCC available to human beings. However, because of their unique beliefs, culture, and ties to the spirit world, most modern OCCs will be unacceptable and even abhorrent to most Traditionalist and Pure Ones.
Other parts include:
To select these uniquely NatAmer OCCs, the character must be a Traditionalist or Pure One -- an individual who holds the old teachings dear, embraces the world of spirits and the Circle of Life, accepts magic, and is of Native American descent (can be of mixed heritage, provided he or she follows the tradional NatAmer customs and anti-tech lifestyle).

The selection, which the quote above is spun from, then goes on to say:
[i]Only characters who are "true believers", with a relatively pure spirit potential, can interact with the ancient Indian spirits and gods on the level neccesary to grant them the special powers and spiritual relationship that these occupations provide. Thus the Indian OCCs listed below and described as follows are exclusive to Native Americans. The only exceptions are people who share their (or similar) beliefs, including some Pacific Island societies, Australian aborigines, African bushmen, hermits, monks, and a few other isolated or religious societies with primal beliefs centering around spirits.

There you go, fair and balanced, with no spin. In other words, if you are from the Samoan Islands, Africa, or are half-Indian/half-(black, white, hispanic, chinese) you can be a Native American OCC with no penalties. If you are an adopted Wolfen, Quick-flex, PSi-stalker, whatever, you can never be anytime more than a Tribal Warrior. You can get the benefits of having a totem, but that is it. It can't be spelled out any clearer.

As for the Wendigo, it should be noted that not only are they closer to the Native American Spirits and Gods than the Native Americans themselves, they are also allies and emmisaries from the spirits. In a lot of cases, they are the guardians of the portals that lead to the Spirit Realm. For all that the Wendigos do for them, I would hope that the spirits would grant a little of their power and thanks.

Well read/said, Devillin.

Context is ALWAYS the key.

If these ar as you say then the NA O.C.C.s are indeed restricted, in the main, to Native Americans.....

I like it. And gives them defined purpose.

[devillin]

Maybe I'm smoking crack, but doesn't it say somewhere in the Fetish descriptions in Spirit West that a honored friend who helps nature, the spirits and the tribe can be gifted a fetish?


On a side note, being born half or fully Native American doesn't mean you are considered one by the tribe. Different tribes have different conditions and rituals to be considered part of the tribe. In some cases the father, or a male relative must petetion for the child to join the tribe. This occurs even today revolving around the legal issues of tribal membership. So the Spirits might consider you acceptable, but your tribal elders may not.

The answer to part one is yes, a friend can be gifted a fetish. Said fetish is only usable by that person. While you are probably correct about being admitted to the tribe, being accepted by the Spirits is non-negotiable. It would look pretty bad on the part of the tribe if the individual went through the trials required by the Spirits to be one of their warriors or shamans and is accepted by the Spirits as their representative, and the tribe doesn't accept him/her. It would kind of show how far that particular tribe has fallen if the Spirits accept him as their own and the tribe doesn't.

Linwood

[RockJock]

I was merely pointing out a modern deviation from the traditional view of what constitutes tribal membership.

[RockJock]

The revised Conversion Book is newer, more upto date, and is geared toward dealing with these sort of issues, so I would say yes.

[Sentinel]

Really?

I didn't know that palladium revised the conversion book to tell us whether or not non native americans can take the Native American OCC's. Hmm learn sometthing new everyday.

Well, it does specifically state the Wolfen can, and the Conversion Book would be the book to integrate all the other Palladium characters to Rifts.
And, it is newer and more updated.
When there was no Spirit West, there was no mention of this before.

[RockJock]

The question was can a Wolfen become a Native American class. Spirit West says nobody but a Native American Tradationalist can. Then Canada says certain other races close to the Spirits can. Then the revised Conversion Books says that Wolfen can. Nothing was said about Native Americans taking those Occs. Use it as a guideline if you wish to allow nature oriented races to take those Occs. If you don't like that fine, call it an exception, or just disregard it at all.