Can a Dragon have any O.C.C,s?

[gaby]

I want to known if a Dragon can have any O.C.C,s?

[Jesterzzn]

I want to known if a Dragon can have any O.C.C,s?

Okay, this is how I think its supposed to go.

Hatchling progression until level 12. Then I think at level 12 they metamorph into adults and all stats and such are re-rolled at adult levels, which are found in conversion book 1.

I don't think that a dragon can take any other occ, strictly by the book, but your GM would be the final word of course.

[cornholioprime]

I want to known if a Dragon can have any O.C.C,s?

Probably OFFICIALLY extremely limited in the Book (I don't remember), but I would most DEFINITELY allow a Creature with a thousands-of-years-long Lifespan to have quite a FEW Occupations over the course of its Lifetime.....

[Sentinel]

I believe they become adult at level ten.
There is nothing that I found to indicate that they can select specific OCCs, just that they select a goodly number of skills from a fairly decent assortment of catagories.
PFRPG and Rifts have different level advancements in terms of tehm accquiring new spells.

[Sir_Spirit]

Before commenting, I just want to clarify two things:
1)Dragons have no official level when they turn adults, in fact they have to be 600 years old in most cases, THAT'S OFFICIAL, NOT MY OPINION! IT'S NOT LEVEL, IT'S AGE! Just so we are clear.

2)Also, the PF Dragons and God book is the official update for the Dragons, even those in rifts to my understanding. That is untill they finally come out with Rift's Dragon and Gods. This is why they were removed from the Revised Conversion Book ONE.
So you can use thier stat's to replace what's given in rifts.

Now, officially the answer to your question:
for hatchlings, is mostly NO, only the Chaing-Ku that I know of can actualy pick an occ(and that's restricted).

The other hatchlings are restricted to whatever powers/magic/spells/skills they have or or allowed to pickup.

Adults, however, are a different story.
They are often shown as having one. Though they also have abuttload of powers and spells and skills so they don't really need one per se, but they I believe can have one if they so choose.


Unofficially I don't really know how that would work.

[Lt Gargoyle]

Here is how i would handle this question if one of my players asked to play a hatchling. They get no OCCs until they get to level 10 at which time they have been around the block for a few years to a couple of decades. At which time they can begin training in a OOC of thier choice provided it is not limited by racial hatred or something like that.

I have not read anything in the books that i have found to say one way or the other. So as always it is up to the gm. And I believe Spirit is right about the age and not level making the hatchling into an adult.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

yup total of 4
hatchling
adult dragon
and and and
dead hatchling

and dead adult dragon
thats all

[DBX]

I want to known if a Dragon can have any O.C.C,s?

going by the books, most hatchlings do not get occ, just their rcc.

saying that consdiering alot of other rcc's now also getting occ tagged along with them, then why not hatchling rcc.



the way our group rp's hatchling is to rp hathcling rcc, & then do a career change, using the career change rules ( which appear in one of the books or this website)

[Zer0 Kay]

yup total of 4
hatchling
adult dragon
and and and
dead hatchling

and dead adult dragon
thats all

You know your sig...you've been downgraded to dumbass

Get it right it's
hatchling
adult dragon
ancient dragon
really old dragon: with dragon sized walker and oxygen tank who's new power is poor bladder control as well as the ability to permanently stay in the metamorphed form indefinately (no matter what species) because they forgot they were a dragon.

You can't play a dead dragon. If they brought dracoliches into Palladium...

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

Dragon PCs are "Dragon R.C.C.s" they dont get another class.
for NPCs throw that right out the window and do whatever.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

yup total of 4
hatchling
adult dragon
and and and
dead hatchling

and dead adult dragon
thats all

You know your sig...you've been downgraded to dumbass

Get it right it's
hatchling
adult dragon
ancient dragon
really old dragon: with dragon sized walker and oxygen tank who's new power is poor bladder control as well as the ability to permanently stay in the metamorphed form indefinately (no matter what species) because they forgot they were a dragon.

You can't play a dead dragon. If they brought dracoliches into Palladium...

ok i forgot those other ones, but you can play a dead character

example:
gm: "ok what do you do?"
player: "well i'm dead so i'm just lying there"

[Dr. Doom III]

Dragons do not get OCCs. Ever.

Some are exceptions, like Chang-Ku and those are stated in their descriptions.
Adult dragons can gain the equivalents of magical OCC but these are just the spell knowledge and abilities not the OCC.

[Kalinda]

yup total of 4
hatchling
adult dragon
and and and
dead hatchling

and dead adult dragon
thats all

You know your sig...you've been downgraded to dumbass

Get it right it's
hatchling
adult dragon
ancient dragon
really old dragon: with dragon sized walker and oxygen tank who's new power is poor bladder control as well as the ability to permanently stay in the metamorphed form indefinately (no matter what species) because they forgot they were a dragon.

You can't play a dead dragon. If they brought dracoliches into Palladium...

ok i forgot those other ones, but you can play a dead character

example:
gm: "ok what do you do?"
player: "well i'm dead so i'm just lying there"

Yup, it's very similar to playing a character who's been paralysed or knocked out. just longer term.

'I lie there and smell bad.'

'A stray dog eats your hand.'

'I try to make it sick.'

(GM rolls.) 'it fails it's save. it staggers off and throws up.'

'WOO HOO! In your face stray dog!'

'just finish rolling up your new character, OK?'

[Borast]

To paraphrase Doom and others...

No...generally Dragons do NOT have OCCs...at all.

Unless the GM wants them to.

As for Adults, they don't have OCCs either, they merely have extensive knowledge...either of two magic forms, or one form and a mundane profession.

The ONLY canon exception I can think of off the top of my head is the Chiang-Ku, whom can be (almost) any magic OCC, or a Scholar OCC, or the default RCC. In anycase, the OCCs are heavily modified.

[Ice Dragon]

I want to known if a Dragon can have any O.C.C,s?

No.

e.g. no full converion Borg.

[Lt Gargoyle]

Yup, it's very similar to playing a character who's been paralysed or knocked out. just longer term.

'I lie there and smell bad.'

'A stray dog eats your hand.'

'I try to make it sick.'

(GM rolls.) 'it fails it's save. it staggers off and throws up.'

'WOO HOO! In your face stray dog!'

'just finish rolling up your new character, OK?'


This is great role playing at its finest.

[Ice Dragon]

I haven't checked, but can't the mokeley membe sea serpents get OCCs too? I know there's one other dragon hatchling other than the chaing ku that can get them I just know it!

Dragons (even hatchling) can learn the powers of an O.C.C. since they get very old, but first they need a teacher, and second in the flavour text of dragon hatchlings it is stateted, that they are to busy to explore the world and their own powers before they learn mere human skills and powers.

[Wolf_Starbuck]

We use the Multiple O.C.C. rules so not allowing a Dragon Hatchling to pick at least one O.C.C. would be unfair.

But we do keep it limited to caster O.C.C.s and to be honest even more restrictive than that, for the most part Ley Line Walker, or Elementalist.

Uhm... I missed this... which multiple O.C.C. rules? anyone got a link?

[Borast]

Wolf_S...

The rules are found in PF (Adventures on the High Seas).

They are also found on the "Cutting Room Floor" here on the PB Website.



As to a hatchling having an OCC...remember, a year old hatchling, other than being about 20 metres long, is essentially a 6 to 7 year old child.

Do you really see many grade one or two kids holding down jobs? Doing a professional level of workmanship? I don't.

Besides, the main reason I don't really see a hatchling of less than 10th or younger than 100 even beginning to investigate the possibility is simple...the dragon is in a period of self discovery, it is learning what it is to be a dragon, and learning that there is very little that his "protectors" can do that he can not. Spells...got it covered... Psionics...yup... Skills... eh, I got what I need... Ability to take-on serious threats solo...check... Regenerate at an "obscene" rate...check...

After 10th level/100 years, I can see it, but not before.

[Fenrir_Lokison]

I know this is ancient, but I am going to put my thoughts on this anyway.

I say yes they can. Dragons are a very intelligent species and many are curious about the world and other civilizations around them. And I don't see why a dragon who may be curious about the ability to merge mechanics and electronics to biological creatures would not spend decades becoming a cyber doc or maybe a dragon who is a protector of a England forest not become a morphed elven Millennium druid or learning the skills of a noble to become a better ruler of his territory.

In short, I would just treat it as dual classing or multiclassing.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Yes Fenrir_Lokison, this is a really old necro-post, however, since it was from Pre-RUE it does stand a bit of re-visiting.

I want to known if a Dragon can have any O.C.C,s?

1: Dragon Hatchlings have to start with the Dragon R.C.C. It is an RCC that any Dragon char Has To Have.

2: After that if GM of the game you are in will let your DH change it's class through importing the PF class changing rules from the High Seas worldbook. (Or allow you to use the Optional PF rules posted in the Cuttingroom Floor to change the char's class.) Changing your char's class is done by the rules set your GM has imported to that specific game as a house rule. Or the GM can come up with their own rules for letting Dragons to have OCCs.

2.1:

Spoiler:

Note that the High Seas changing class rules only apply to changing From an OCC to a OCC. There are no references to PCCs & RCCs within the High Seas canon changing class rules text.
(Some might argue that when the text says OCC(s) they mean Character Class(es) . Since the 2nd ed High Seas book was published, PB posted the Optional rules which do mention RCCs and PCCs.)

2.2:

Spoiler:

The canon rules of the PF game is that PCCs Can Not change from their PCC, and nor can anyone else change to a PCC. PB must of wanted there be no misunderstanding since they put in every PCC in the PF2 game.

2.3:

Spoiler:

The rules Posted in the PF section of 'The Cuttingroom Floor' are so barebones; leaving out a lot of the text that make the canon rules work; that they look like they are meant to be a patch for the canon rules, not as an independent set of changing class rules. But they never put them into a gamebook to make them canon, which is why they remain only optional.

---------
3: RUE....

Spoiler:

I did not see any text in that Core Book in the Dragon hatchling text anything about when the DH is allowed to take up a OCC. But it did say that the DHs are living the Dragon RCC by just being a Dragon.

---------
side note: It is only Age that determines when a hatchling turns into an Adult.
---------
I would just note that the Dragon hatching text says that for their first few decades of their lives, they are exploring their instincts and physical abilities.

[Fenris2020]

For one thing, Dragons have to hit a certain age before they're adults... level doesn't matter.
As for taking an OCC, I'd allow it; most of the NPC dragons apparently have.

[drewkitty ~..~]

As to how I would house rule a Dragon Char because they can't stop being a dragon...

The dragon learns/trains for an OCC (Job class, with all psychic, intuitive and granted classes off limits) and keeps two sets of EXP for each class. With the char getting EXP for the OCC when the char is using their OCC skills and abilities. Otherwise their EXP goes to the dragon char's Dragon RCC EXP because they were just being a dragon, not being their job class.

After that the char would use the PF2 HighSeas canon rules to change to another job class with the same limitations of No PCCs (under the PF2 canon changing class rules changing to/from a PCC is not allowed), No intuitive Classes and No Granted powers classes.

examples of intuitive classes: Mystic, Psi Mystic, Mystic Knight
examples of granted powers classes: Warlock, Priest (of light or dark), witch (all variants) and shifter if take'n a pact.
Examples of PCCs: Mind Mage/-melter/-Master, Psi Healer, Illusionist, Dream Maker, Kinetic, psi-mechanic.

Spoiler:

Its the class a master psychic class? if no, not a PCC, if yes, is a PCC. This is the test for understanding my usage of the abbreviation in the text above, and in just about every game PB makes.

[Grazzik]

I would treat a dragon with an OCC similar to Dog Boys / Free borns. Free borns can't stop being mutant canines.

If a Dragon during char gen is given an OCC, I'd house rule that:

• They retain all natural abilities except as outlined below.

• They'd have to be at least 20 years old which should give them time to study to level 1.

• Though some OCCs may be rare, I'd allow any magical OCC including priests, witches, etc. with a gosh darn good backstory.

• If the OCC is magical, the dragon loses the ability to intuitively learn spells except as permitted by their OCC.

• If the dragon is major or master psychic capable, I'd allow them to be any PCC from char gen, BUT psychic power selection is based on PCC not Dragon species abilities. They also lose the ability to intuitively learn spells. The reason is the PCC shapes and limits their psyche. Generally not a good idea for a dragon since these restrictions really nerf them.

• The OCC/PCC skill list replaces the RCC list.

If the dragon is notably older / more experienced, it might be just easier to switch from the RCC to an OCC using PF2 rules, though this would preclude any switch to a PCC. PF2 MoM age considerations for switching to a magical OCC would not apply to dragons as they are innately magical creatures.

[drewkitty ~..~]

.... with a gosh darn good backstory.

Yes, This will get a player more freedom to play looser with char creation in games I would GM.
Just as describing a char intentions of how they want their spells to be in that casting.

[Curbludgeon]

Putting aside this is nearly a 19 year old thread, it's worth noting that the PFRPG book Dragons & Gods has hatchlings with access to considerably more skills than that of an RUE hatchling. albeit with the source less than specific on the method by which they gain them. As a handwave I'd offer they might gain those listed in each dragon species' description over their first few years of life, those skills which are hard-coded excepted.

[Plane]

I don't think they can start with one (except for the semi-OCC of the Chaing-Ku) but I don't see any problem with allowing them to use the usual changing rules other races enjoy.

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip... but I don't see any problem with allowing them to use the usual changing rules other races enjoy.

So what you are saying with the of the above is that Dragons in the Rifts game can't change their class to another class what-so-ever, when talking about the Rifts game, because Rifts does not have a set generalized changing class rules within its canon text.

[Ice Dragon]

It was already stated, that hatchling dragons morph in to adult dragons at a give age (around 600 years).

Dragons can learn an O.C.C. as it is written for many N.P.C. dragons in the book (they lent to magic O.C.C. like warlock, wizard, etc.). A hatchling (player) character is more exploring the world and their natural powers than sititng down and learn a new profession (O.C.C.) - thats for later .
The hatchling is too busy testing his natural abilities, instinctively developing magic skills, and learning about the cosmos to concentrate on mundane human skills.

e.g.
Tiamat the Younger (from Conversion Book 2) - Experience Level: 23rd level dragon, 12th level ley line walker.
Zeus the Thunderer (from Conversion Book 2) - Experience Level: 12th level Dragon, 8th level Air and Water Warlock.
Caliph Alsto Stone (from PF - The Old Ones) - Experience Level: 3rd level Diabolist

[Library Ogre]

My two cents: A Dragon never has an OCC, other than Dragon. However, they might, after they grow up, learn different magics associated with other OCCs... a Dragon might learn Stone Magic, but they will be a Dragon who knows Stone Magic, not a Stone Mage.

It is a fine hair to split, and I'm not married to it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

My two cents: A Dragon never has an OCC, other than Dragon. However, they might, after they grow up, learn different magics associated with other OCCs... a Dragon might learn Stone Magic, but they will be a Dragon who knows Stone Magic, not a Stone Mage.

It is a fine hair to split, and I'm not married to it.

I do wish you say what you mean, since Dragons Have a RCC, not an OCC. And I also wish PB would drop calling ALL their character classes as OCCs. Just calling ALL their character classes ....Oh Gee Well....Character Classes....like everyone else does.
And then let the divisions just play out as the words that are represented the abbreviations:OCC, RCC, PCC, have their normal meanings so nothing would be confusing.

EDIT: What I mean is that I wish when they are talking about ALL their char classes that they would drop using the O.C.C. (the abbreviation or the full words) and just use the words 'Character Classes'.

In my opinion, they went the wrong direction with the changes they introduced in RUE for the Rifts game.
Since I don't play Rifts anymore the Changes initiated in RUE don't affect me except when, in the magic forum, I correctly use the correct abbreviation for psychic classes.

[Plane]

because Rifts does not have a set generalized changing class rules within its canon text.

we know it must exist since NPCs exhibit it so I'd just defer to page 1's "compatible with the entire" disclaimer which allows rules-borrowing from other games' errata

I don't think it's like ninjas/turtles where there's a direct contradiction like SDC healing at a different rate (maybe that's just the comic book physics of that dimension) but if it was, you could just rift over to PF to do your class change.

The lines of Rifts/PF have gotten very blurred from the recent dimension books anyway - hades+dyval were traditionally SDC settings and now they're MDC settings? confusing!

[drewkitty ~..~]

The problem with using the PF class changing rules for Rift chars is: 1) the published PF rules only work with Job Classes. 2) Racial classes are not included within the published rules. And 3) Psychic classes are specifically disallowed (forbidden) from being changed from and changed to. [Can't find this rule, check out every PCC in PF2 and you will find such rule. In every one of them. Like the writer knew what he was talking about and wasn't pandering to anyone.]
These things play havoc with the 'anything can happen liberalism' mindset that comes from the cash cow RPG.
As an example of that liberalism, I would point out how the mind bleeder powers, that when introduced, were specifically limited to the mind bleeder race. And now they are just effectively another set of powers a specialty psionic class can have in their PCC powers. This started in Psyscape.

And no, the lines are not blurred. The books you mentioned are Rifts books. They might have some conversion notes for use in PF games, but that's it. There is no confusion.

I will have to mention PF@ D&G. It is a PF2 gamebook with conversion notes. Why is it a PF2 book....it is written toward the PF2 Game.
I am OCD about my words and I read <descriptive adverb> a lot. So things like how it is written is noticeable to me. Which gotten me in trouble with people who don't understand the text fully. Because I don't bend when the canon text says XYZ and others say XYD, or say CBS.

[Killer Cyborg]

When two games are in canon “compatible,” my OCD interpretation is that they are “compatible unless otherwise specified,” NOT “compatible only when specified.”

[drewkitty ~..~]

When two games are in canon “compatible,” my OCD interpretation is that they are “compatible unless otherwise specified,” NOT “compatible only when specified.”

And yet there are the conversion books. This is because the different PB games don't have 100% the same canon rules.
Which the PF Changing class rules are a part of that % of non-compatibility because the terms used in the text means different things between PF and Rifts.

[Killer Cyborg]

When two games are in canon “compatible,” my OCD interpretation is that they are “compatible unless otherwise specified,” NOT “compatible only when specified.”

And yet there are the conversion books. This is because the different PB games don't have 100% the same canon rules.

Indeed. There are quite a few differences between a MDC setting and an SDC setting, and between a high-magic/high-psionic setting like Rifts and a lower-magic/lower-psionic setting like BTS or N&S.

And because there are cases where the written rules from one game conflict with the written rules of another game.

Which the PF Changing class rules are a part of that % of non-compatibility because the terms used in the text means different things between PF and Rifts.

Are you talking about the High Seas rules, or the Cutting Room Floor rules?
Because AFAIK, the Cutting Room Floor rules only refer to OCCs and RCCs, and those terms are the same in Rifts as in PFRPG.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The only published (a.k.a. canon) generalized changing class rules are in the PF2 High seas book is what I've been talking about. This was covered earlier in the topic.

The incompatibility comes from RUE calling psychic char classes OCCs. The incompatibility from the older Rifts books come from the Rifts books calling Psychic classes RCCs.

Also covered before this, the abbreviated optional rules in the 'cutting room floor' are that, optional. They are only optional because they have never been published in a gamebook to make them canon. Don't badmouth me for PB not publishing them, PB has had several gamebooks they could have put them into since they were posted.

That doesn't even cover that those optional posted rules are not even a full set of rules for changing classes.

[Killer Cyborg]

The only published (a.k.a. canon) generalized changing class rules are in the PF2 High seas book is what I've been talking about. This was covered earlier in the topic.

Okay, thanks.
I re-skimmed the revived part of the conversation, and I believe I'm mostly caught up.

The incompatibility comes from RUE calling psychic char classes OCCs. The incompatibility from the older Rifts books come from the Rifts books calling Psychic classes RCCs.

What incompatibility are you seeing?
Rifts doesn't use the term PCCs, but that doesn't cause any incompatibility with the High Seas rule against changing to a PCC.
A PFRPG knight wishing to change to a Mind Mage would be attempting to change to a PCC, which is against the rules.
A Cyber-Knight wishing to change to a Mind Melter would NOT be attempting to change to a PCC, so would not be against that particular rule.

Also covered before this, the abbreviated optional rules in the 'cutting room floor' are that, optional. They are only optional because they have never been published in a gamebook to make them canon.

What's your source that rules not published in a game book are not canon?
For example, errata is generally considered canon whether or not it's published in a game book, as far as I know.

That doesn't even cover that those optional posted rules are not even a full set of rules for changing classes.

What's missing?

[drewkitty ~..~]

The incompatibility is in Rifters whining that their Mind Melter is an R/OCC not a PCC, so it doesn't have to follow the Master Psychic class rules about changing classes. If the class is a Master Psychic class then they have to follow the rules concerning Master Psychic classes in the game of origin that the rules were tailored for.
The reason being for the no change/no change to rules is the master psychic classes are built around the idea that the char has built their identity around their psychic powers. As in that they have the idea about having psi powers a part of the char's sense of self so solidly, because to have doubts about them would cause them not to work, the Char will not even contemplate to changer their class.*yawns at having to catch people up*

'My house rule" note: There is only one why that can let a master psychic change their class. That why is that the Master Psychic has permanently lost their psychic powers in-total. In other words, they have lost their reason for their sense of self, so they don't have their own sense of self standing in the way of contemplating finding a new class.
-------
What is missing from the Optional Posted rules? All the text about the penalties about changing to a class that is not similar to the org. class and the text about what happens if the char if they change back to their org. class.

[Curbludgeon]

I think we can all see any whining here isn't stemming from the Rifter.

[Prysus]

The reason being for the no change/no change to rules is the master psychic classes are built around the idea that the char has built their identity around their psychic powers. As in that they have the idea about having psi powers a part of the char's sense of self so solidly, because to have doubts about them would cause them not to work, the Char will not even contemplate to changer their class.*yawns at having to catch people up*

Greetings and Salutations. In which book (page number as well) does it state that a psychic must have no doubts about psychic powers for them to work? As a reminder ...

Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.

The only published (a.k.a. canon)

By your standards, the above is canon (because house rules are posted after the statement), and you only consider "published" material as canon. So yes, a book and page number are required, per your standards.

With that said, the above logic doesn't track to any canon I'm aware of. There are two issues (off the top of my head) that conflict with that logic.

1: Practitioners of Magic must have belief and total conviction in magic. Any "nuance of doubt will destroy any chance of learning magic" (RUE, page 185, Step 2: Conviction, with a similar quote in PF2 main book, page 180, Step One: Belief). In this case, they must have conviction and no doubt. Yet, the Adventure on the High Seas Multiple O.C.C.s rule (AotHS, page 10) specifically discusses magic as one of the examples, and the individual O.C.C. do not discount Multiple O.C.C. in any way (in fact, we know they can use the rules, as evidence by the Alchemist, PF2 main book, page 246 ("Magic Abilities"). So conviction in a class and lack of doubt in an ability does not preclude someone from selecting Multiple O.C.C.

2: Nega-Psychics (in particular, those from Beyond the Supernatural 1st Edition, page 59) have "an unshakable belief that psychic powers ... [snip] ... do not exist." The write-up continues to specify they are "a psychic and use his psychic energies daily." So we have evidence that a psychic can NOT believe in psychic powers, but still be able to use their psionics.

So we know that someone that requires no doubt can select Multiple O.C.C., and we know that a psychic can NOT believe in the powers but still use them. This is Palladium, so contradictions are possible. But I am unaware of any Palladium source that requires psychics to have total conviction in their powers, and also unaware of the source that states this is the reason they cannot select Multiple O.C.C. However, if such a quote does exist, I'd like to learn of it. Note: I provided books and page numbers to support my stance.

Side note: As my personal "house rule," I state that you cannot switch into a Psychic O.C.C. as you must be born with powers (requiring to be born with powers is canon, and books and page numbers can be provided if anyone needs them), but a psychic can switch to a Men at Arms O.C.C. (they burned up too much P.P.E. to become mages though). Of course, with the concept of Latent Psychics (also existing in Palladium), I will at least humor the concept of a character switching to a Psychic O.C.C. But, honestly, I dislike Palladium's class changing rules, and try to avoid them as much as possible anyways.

Thank you for your time and patience. Please have a nice day.

[Curbludgeon]

I'm not real big on biotruths as an inescapable narrative element in gaming, and so am pretty cool with house ruled workarounds for people coming into magic or psionics later in life. Rifts in particular is crazy enough that being born near a ley line has a chance of altering a fetus (the Wyoming Nexus-Born articles), and people are able to be converted into Rune Warriors (whose name is a little off), Tattooed Slayers, and what have you. It isn't as if collecting people to play some 80s style TTRPG isn't already herding cats, so adding some sort of ritual by which a character can be infused by ley line energy over a few months to grant a PPE pool, or adding an ISP pool via living multiple subjective years in a fast-time astral domain, alongside a class change just doesn't disrupt my sense of setting.

There's an argument to be made that conflicting traditions might make new modalities hard to learn. A Magebane has its own shtick, and doesn't necessarily need to learn spells. I wouldn't want to limit the story of a Coalition Grunt who could develop into a Mystic being prevented entirely throughout the character's life, though, just because their teenage years were spent in an oppressive arcology.

[Library Ogre]

So, I've had a couple systems that I developed over the years to allow people to develop psychic or magic powers as they leveled; spending skills to gain basic power, or improve in power level through practice. For magic, with some basic knowledge of magic (i.e. Lore: Magic), you can spend more skills to learn basic spell-casting.

You'd never be as good as a proper caster class, or a PCC, but it worked to let you pick up Sixth Sense and smell good to psi-stalkers.

[Killer Cyborg]

The incompatibility is in Rifters whining that their Mind Melter is an R/OCC not a PCC, so it doesn't have to follow the Master Psychic class rules about changing classes.

I'm not sure what you mean:
-I don't understand how people whining equals "incompatibility" of any relevant kind.
-I don't know what "Master Psychic class rule" you're talking about. Could you please provide the exact quote, book, and page number?

I'm Looking at P10 on Adventures of the High Seas 2nd Edition, and I see no mention at all of psychics, PCCs, or RCCs.
Are the 1st Edition rules different? And if so, do you think they take precedent over the 2nd Edition rules?

The Cutting Room Floor rules specifically talk about changing to psychic OCCs:
When the character begins their new training, they are zero-level in the new O.C.C. The character must earn experience points equal to the new O.C.C.'s second level (if Men of arms or adventurers) or third level (if magical or psychic).

So I think it's pretty clearly allowed by these rules.
And I'm unclear why you want to declare these rules as non-canon, so feel free to explain.
As I pointed out The Cutting Room Floor contains "things that went out of print, were forgotten or left out for other reasons, along with general errata and excluded material from various books," with no particular indication of which parts are which.
The rules for Dual Classing here are listed as Errata for PFRPG 2nd Edition, so I'd need a pretty darned good reason to believe any claims that they are NOT canon.

If the class is a Master Psychic class then they have to follow the rules concerning Master Psychic classes in the game of origin that the rules were tailored for.

Is this a canon rule, or something of your own devising?
if canon, could you please list the original quote, along with the book (or link) and page number?

The reason being for the no change/no change to rules is the master psychic classes are built around the idea that the char has built their identity around their psychic powers.

I believe Prysus addresses this part.

[Soldier of Od]

I'm Looking at P10 on Adventures of the High Seas 2nd Edition, and I see no mention at all of psychics, PCCs, or RCCs.

Its in PFRPG main book 2nd edition: four Character Classes in this book have a note in their description to say that multiple O.C.C.s are not possible - Psychic Sensitive, Psi-Healer, Psi-Mystic and Mind Mage. The Illusionist in the Old Ones book has the same note.
Maybe multiple P.C.C.s are possible

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm Looking at P10 on Adventures of the High Seas 2nd Edition, and I see no mention at all of psychics, PCCs, or RCCs.

Its in PFRPG main book 2nd edition: four Character Classes in this book have a note in their description to say that multiple O.C.C.s are not possible - Psychic Sensitive, Psi-Healer, Psi-Mystic and Mind Mage. The Illusionist in the Old Ones book has the same note.
Maybe multiple P.C.C.s are possible

Thanks!!

The note simply says "Multiple OCCs are NOT possible."
If there is further explanation somewhere else, somebody point me to the quote, page, and book number containing the explanation.
If not, then AFAIK all we're dealing with is either:
a) four classes that are explicitly exempt from changing OCCs
or
b) four pieces of text that are over-ruled by the Cutting Room Floor errata.
or
C) The writers were not referring to the rules for changing OCCs, but rather to the fact that most psychics get to have an OCC on top of their powers, and the only purpose of the rule is to keep people from having Mind Mage Assassins, or Illusionist Summoners, etc., who pursue both careers at once as if their PCC was the same as being a Minor Psychic or Major Psychic.

None of these cases affect Rifts OCCs, afaik.

Item of curiosity:
PFRPG 2, page 20 refers to "the Mind Mage OCC," which we can either take as a typo or remnant of a previous version of the rules, OR as an indication that PCCs still count as OCCs.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Actually what the changing class rule that is in every PF2 PCC has in it (not just those in the core book) says is that psychic classes can nether be changed from, nor changed to. Which I already said above already.

That the changing class rules only cover OCCs was stated above by me also. The reason being is that there is no mention of RCC, nor PCC in them. They only talk about OCCs changing class.

Where the changing class rules 'As A Whole' affects Rifts Character classes is that Psychic classes have to follow the Rule set up for psychic classes. That Psychic classes in Rifts (both pre- and Post RUE) are not labeled as PCCs has no bearing on whether of not they are Psychic Classes. Since they are still Psychic Classes they follow the rule for Psychic classes. Which is they can neither be changed from, nor changed to.
That is because the psychic class is a reflection of the character idea of self. Not just a job.

*yawns*

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually what the changing class rule that is in every PF2 PCC has in it (not just those in the core book) says is that psychic classes can nether be changed from, nor changed to. Which I already said above already.

Pretty sure I already addressed that.

That the changing class rules only cover OCCs was stated above by me also. The reason being is that there is no mention of RCC, nor PCC in them. They only talk about OCCs changing class.

Yes, including psychic OCCs.
Which is what Rifts has.

Where the changing class rules 'As A Whole' affects Rifts Character classes is that Psychic classes have to follow the Rule set up for psychic classes. That Psychic classes in Rifts (both pre- and Post RUE) are not labeled as PCCs has no bearing on whether of not they are Psychic Classes. Since they are still Psychic Classes they follow the rule for Psychic classes. Which is they can neither be changed from, nor changed to.
That is because the psychic class is a reflection of the character idea of self. Not just a job.

Incorrect.
Psychic OCCs are NOT PCCs.
You're making stuff up.
(Unless, of course, you have direct quotes from the books stating this stuff...?)

*yawns*

You should get that checked.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Okay, was hoping to avoid breaking this down more, but I think doing so may help (at least some). In this analysis, I'll try to provide information, and the logic/support for both (with as many book references as possible).

Let's start with the Dual O.C.C.s (Cutting Room Floor) and the Multiple O.C.C.s rules (Adventures on the High Seas). Now, they technically have different titles, but for the purposes of this discussion I'm going to consider them one rule (from two different sources), primarily because I believe that they're meant to be the same.

Dual O.C.C.s is Errata from Palladium Fantasy 2nd Edition. In this write-up, Psychics are specifically allowed to have Dual O.C.C.s
Multiple O.C.C.s is from Adventures on the High Seas, book 3 from the Palladium Fantasy line. This write-up does not mention Psychic O.C.C. (or P.C.C.) or R.C.C. in any way. This means they're not specifically included or excluded.

If we're using as newer rules trump older rules, then the printed material in Adventures on the High Seas should supersede the Cutting Room Floor. While I don't have exact dates for when the Cutting Room Floor was released, the fact it's listed as Errata indicates it was left out of the book. So, with that logic, when Palladium printed the material in Adventures on the High Seas it should be the included Errata. Since this would (in theory) be released second, this indicates these are the newest, most up to date rules (until something newer is released).

Note: As an example, also in the Errata for Palladium Fantasy 2nd Edition is the S.D.C. for Shields. In later printings of the PF2 main book, S.D.C. for shields is included. However, those values do not match the ones on the Cutting Room Floor. So, if I wanted to use the newest rules, I'd use the ones that were printed later/after the fact.

Now, as I (and drewkitty ~..~) stated above, the Multiple O.C.C. rules do not mention Psychics or Racial classes. Now, there are 5 P.C.C. (4 in the main book, and 1 in Book 2: Old Ones), and all 5 have the note of "Multiple O.C.C.s are not possible." So, the Multiple O.C.C. rules could be written with the concept in mind that P.C.C. cannot have Multiple O.C.C. (mentioned in each class), so there's no need to mention it, or because they wanted to leave the possibility open for the future (otherwise, why list it in each individual class?). I'd say both are valid possible interpretations, if looking solely at the Multiple O.C.C. rule without any other evidence (beyond the note in the individual P.C.C. write-up).

Item of curiosity:
PFRPG 2, page 20 refers to "the Mind Mage OCC," which we can either take as a typo or remnant of a previous version of the rules, OR as an indication that PCCs still count as OCCs.

P.C.C.s are still O.C.C. To be clearer, P.C.C. is a sub-type of O.C.C. If you look on page 62 of the PF2 main book, they have a "List of O.C.C.s," on which Psychics are included. So O.C.C. and P.C.C. are both types of O.C.C. (yes, that means O.C.C. is a type of O.C.C., which is weird, but very Palladium). Note: The next quote section of my post will further expand upon this idea.

However, if you want to discuss some curiosities and what they could imply, I'll add some other oddities for you. In a section starting on page 100: The Ways of Magic, on page 103 we have Mind Mages, Psi-Mystics, and Psi-Healers included in "Mystical Communities" (every other class has magical abilities).

Then on page 180: The Mastery of Magic, under Step Two: Mental Discipline, we have lines like: "Other forms of magic exist such as the Necromancer and Illusionist ..." The Illusionist is the P.C.C. included in PF Book 2: Old Ones.

Further down (still page 180, same section) it continues: "The Mind Mage, Psi-Healer, Warlock, Witch, Druid, Shaman, and some Clergy also draw upon P.P.E. and wield magic ..."

This would indicate that the Mind Mage, Psi-Healer, Illusionist, and possibly the Psi-Mystic are all considered magic users as well (at least at one point). Which is 3 to 4 of the 5 P.C.C. included in the setting. So what Palladium intended isn't quite clear.

Psychic OCCs are NOT PCCs.
You're making stuff up.
(Unless, of course, you have direct quotes from the books stating this stuff...?)

In this case, I'd say it's fair and accurate to say Psychic O.C.C. are P.C.C. In RUE, page 278, Palladium writes: "P.C.C. stands for Psychic Character Class and is a term reserved for "psychic" characters ... [snip] ... we've found using the term P.C.C. can be confusing, so we either refer to them as O.C.C.s or R.C.C.s; basically an O.C.C. with psychic abilities."

In addition, we have your quote from PF2 main book, page 20: "... select one of the psychic Occupational Character Classes, like the Mind Mage O.C.C."

So we have two quotes from both Rifts and PF that effectively tell us that a "psychic Occupational Character Class" is a P.C.C. (or "an O.C.C. with psychic abilities").

That the changing class rules only cover OCCs was stated above by me also. The reason being is that there is no mention of RCC, nor PCC in them. They only talk about OCCs changing class.

As noted here (and above), the Multiple O.C.C. rule in Adventures on the High Season doesn't address R.C.C. or P.C.C. However, in this case, I'd find this works against drewkitty ~..~'s theory more than for it. How so?

Well, first, we know that Dragons are a R.C.C. I don't think anyone cares to debate this (though I can provide quotes if we really need).

Next, we have a note in Dragons & Gods (a PF book, compatible with Rifts) on page 11: "Because the adult dragon lives the equivalent of many lives, the mystical creatures often know two disciplines of magic as well as other skills (typically scholarly pursuits) equal to a total of two to four human O.C.C.s - usually dedicating centuries to one area of knowledge at a time. See Adventures on the High Seas, 2nd Edition for optional rules for dual-character classes for humans and other playable races."

So Palladium specifically lets us know to use the Adventures on the High Seas rules (referred to as Dual Character Classes, for further support the Cutting Room Floor and Adventures on the High Seas are meant to be the same rule). So, with this information, we know the Multiple O.C.C. rules in Adventures on the High Seas applies to a R.C.C., even though it's not specifically listed in the write-up. Note: I'm guessing we could find various other NPC with more than one O.C.C. that would be a R.C.C. and a O.C.C., but I don't know them by heart.

This means we have evidence that the Multiple O.C.C.s rules in Adventures on the High Seas is NOT limited to only the sub-category of O.C.C., since it includes other sub-types as well (specifically, R.C.C.). This would indicate that the "O.C.C." in Multiple O.C.C.s is the parent term, and thereby includes the sub-categories as well, of which P.C.C. is a part of.

Furthermore, in terms of Rifts, even before RUE re-categorized them as Psychic O.C.C.s (an accurate term, for note, at least in the context of Palladium's usage), psychics were generally categorized as R.C.C., which we already have evidence is included in the rules. Note: Not an avenue of investigation I'd have considered, if not for drewkitty ~..~ bringing it to my attention.

Hopefully some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[Killer Cyborg]

I can take a longer look later, Prysus, but that’s some pretty good reasoning.