Types of FTL drives and Alternatives for Phase World

[Warshield73]

I am spinning this off from Dreadnoughts, why? in the hopes of not completely derailing the conversation and making anything in this conversation easier to find in the future.

Basic facts: Phase World FTL comes in three basic types.
1) Rift Drives - described in Dimension Book (DB) 2 pg.153, with an additional note in DB 6 pg.131
- Least common drive
- Only used by the UWW

2) Phase Drives - described in DB 2 pg. 152, with some notes and costs DB 6 pg. 132
- Faster and more expensive then CG drives
- Can only be built or repaired by Prometheans of PW

3) Contra-Gravity Drives - described DB 2 pg.152, some notes and costs DB 6 pg. 132, and additional information throughout DB 13
- Most common drive
- Maximum size hull for standard drives is 4,000 feet each size and 60 million tons
- Larger ships need one of the two Dreadnought class drives, DB 13 pg. 20

Other drives are mentioned
1) Space-Fold (the kind found in Robotech) - DB 2 pg.152
- Described as not working in the 3G due to ley lines or the cosmic forge

2) Space Fold (this is a completely different type of space fold - Very poorly described in DB 3 pg.85 and 90 with additional notes in DB 6 pg. 131
- Used by extra-dimensional invaders called intruders
- cannot be replicated by 3G powers because it doesn't work with anti-matter power sources

3) Quantum Worm Hole Drive (generic) - DB 6 pg.132
- Theoretical drive being worked on but not in use
- Problems are can not control exit point and it would require 100 anti-matter reactors to generate

4) Hyper-pipe wormhole drive (Dominators) - This is a type of quantum worm hole drive DB 13 pg.48-49
- Elder race tech, cannot be duplicated by other races in the 3G

These are the posts dealing with FTL

As I am not following this conversation super closely...

I understand.

...I will comment on the one thing I noted. It is stated that the reason that Spacefold systems don't work in the 3G. It's related to the Ley Lines in space that crisscross the Galaxies. Somehow, never specifically stated, the Cosmic Ley Lines interfere with the operation of RT style space fold drives.

Yeah there are actually a few references like this. The problem is,

"Fold Drive" get a description on pg131 (of DB6), the problem with them is related to making a stable passageway, and it has something to do with anti-matter powering the drive. So we know they are working on the technology, and they also know its possible to create a stable passage given the Intruders drive, they just haven't figured it out using their main power source (anti-matter). (Though I have to wonder why no one has tried it with Fusion engines, which are a thing in the setting).

There are several, somewhat conflicting, explanations for this. It seemed just to be a way to neutralize Robotech/Macross II ships if people brought them over. I personally just take it as LLs effect Robotech fold drives and anti-matter is what is stopping the intruder drives. I seem to also recall a passage saying that it was interference from the cosmic forge.

Personally I prefer a Babylon 5 or Honor Harrington style hyperspace or a Robotech / Battlestar Galactica style space fold / jump to the Star Trek style FTL or even the Star Wars / Stargate style "hyperspace" that is really just another type of warp drive. I think you get a lot more interesting space options without completely breaking physics. That said, I understand why they wanted to remove the Robotech fold drives given the ranges involved.

I actually designed an alien race that used a B5 style Hyperdrive system. I feel that having differing styles of FTL drive is fitting for the setting. I never did care for the explanation regarding the Cosmic Ley Lines and possibly the Forge itself interfering with Spacefold drive tech. So in my game I had a power bloc that used RT mecha figure out a work around and redesigned their spacefold drives so that they worked properly.

with the ftl drives there are really 3 or 4 models that I have seen

model 1 warp drives ala star trek these drives functionally compress space in front of the ship, and expand it behind the ship. to use a piece of paper analogy it pulls a wave into the paper, and then "surfs" across the tops of the waves massive oversimplification but it works.

model 2 hyperspace, this is the star wars, honor harrington model, basically there are alternate "dimensions" linked to the universe the ships transition to that compressed space and travel there then come back to the normal universe at a different location.

model 3 jump or fold drives the paper analogy is you make your start and stop locations the same (for a moment) and transition from point a to B without traversing the distance between (and let space revert to normal after the event.

the arguable 4th version is a variant of 3, the infinite improbity drive.... you convince the universe that you aren't where you are but really where you want to be... and the universe corrects to match.

It seemed just to be a way to neutralize Robotech/Macross II ships if people brought them over. I personally just take it as LLs effect Robotech fold drives and anti-matter is what is stopping the intruder drives. I seem to also recall a passage saying that it was interference from the cosmic forge.

Personally I just have the Space Fold system restriction to be for home grown systems, those from another galaxy/dimension work just fine. The issue is that the PW-3G powers to date haven't been able made it work, since the Intruders are not from the 3G and Robotech/Macross 2 well they're from the Milkyway and multiple dimensions.

This is hardly a method for neutralizing RT/M2 ships real advantage (gun range) in any case. Not to mention they still have the ability to get up to (low) fractions of the speed of light (0.16c, though in 1E/M2 they don't give the time to get this fast), which still makes them interstellar capable just not fast or "practical".

Feel free to pick up from here.

[Warshield73]

As I am not following this conversation super closely...

I understand.

...I will comment on the one thing I noted. It is stated that the reason that Spacefold systems don't work in the 3G. It's related to the Ley Lines in space that crisscross the Galaxies. Somehow, never specifically stated, the Cosmic Ley Lines interfere with the operation of RT style space fold drives.

Yeah there are actually a few references like this. The problem is,

"Fold Drive" get a description on pg131 (of DB6), the problem with them is related to making a stable passageway, and it has something to do with anti-matter powering the drive. So we know they are working on the technology, and they also know its possible to create a stable passage given the Intruders drive, they just haven't figured it out using their main power source (anti-matter). (Though I have to wonder why no one has tried it with Fusion engines, which are a thing in the setting).

There are several, somewhat conflicting, explanations for this. It seemed just to be a way to neutralize Robotech/Macross II ships if people brought them over. I personally just take it as LLs effect Robotech fold drives and anti-matter is what is stopping the intruder drives. I seem to also recall a passage saying that it was interference from the cosmic forge.

Personally I prefer a Babylon 5 or Honor Harrington style hyperspace or a Robotech / Battlestar Galactica style space fold / jump to the Star Trek style FTL or even the Star Wars / Stargate style "hyperspace" that is really just another type of warp drive. I think you get a lot more interesting space options without completely breaking physics. That said, I understand why they wanted to remove the Robotech fold drives given the ranges involved.

I actually designed an alien race that used a B5 style Hyperdrive system. I feel that having differing styles of FTL drive is fitting for the setting. I never did care for the explanation regarding the Cosmic Ley Lines and possibly the Forge itself interfering with Spacefold drive tech. So in my game I had a power bloc that used RT mecha figure out a work around and redesigned their spacefold drives so that they worked properly.

The problem is we already have 3 different types of FTL drives in setting just among the current races, not counting the elder races. The problem is that they really aren't differentiated very well.

In general I think it would be interesting if you mixed and matched some of the FTL options but eventually one system would end up being the best (fastest cheapest or most efficient) or every group would eventually learn most of the types that are within their technological range. Think about it, if you use standard FTL and no hyperspace what is to stop an enemy from massing a fleet in hyperspace inside your system. You would at least want the ability to scout the areas of hyperspace around your systems.

The opposite also applies. If you use hyperspace and are attacked by pirates using standard FTL you are going to want a means of tracking and capturing those pirates. In the end if you have different types of drives they can't just be divided by faction, unless that faction is an elder race, they need to have advantages that make you want to use them but enough disadvantages that someone else might use something different.

When I was thinking of redesigning the FTL system years ago...years and years ago...OK it was in the '90's, I envisioned a hyperspace ssytem similar to B5, but it more dangerous. Not 40K dangerous, I don't think I had even heard of that back then, but an alternate dimension reached by rift drives and maybe phase drives. CG drives were slower but safer and could be mass produced by tech civilizations.

Again, never did it but if you are going to differentiate on that level there needs to be some world building around it.

I never did care for the explanation regarding the Cosmic Ley Lines and possibly the Forge itself interfering with Spacefold drive tech. So in my game I had a power bloc that used RT mecha figure out a work around and redesigned their spacefold drives so that they worked properly.

I know several people who did that, I never brought Robotech into PW. By the time we really started playing PW we had played all four 1e RTs to death and I had brought some of it in to my early Rifts games so we were ready to leave it behing.

[Warshield73]

I think this is as good a summation as you can get. I have only one add on.

with the ftl drives there are really 3 or 4 models that I have seen

model 1 warp drives ala star trek these drives functionally compress space in front of the ship, and expand it behind the ship. to use a piece of paper analogy it pulls a wave into the paper, and then "surfs" across the tops of the waves massive oversimplification but it works.

This is what PW is now and truthfully if FTL methods (limits and advantages of each) were better defined I think it would work just fine.

I have to say functionally Star Wars hyperspace is more like Star Trek warp drive than any of the other hyperspace systems.

model 2 hyperspace, this is the star wars, honor harrington model, basically there are alternate "dimensions" linked to the universe the ships transition to that compressed space and travel there then come back to the normal universe at a different location.

I like this system for a setting like PW because you can create a dimension with completely different rules. This is also a great way to use Rifts to travel through space without making it instant. In a setting like this you can have everyone use the same hyperspace but they get to it differently and can even use it differently when you are there.

model 3 jump or fold drives the paper analogy is you make your start and stop locations the same (for a moment) and transition from point a to B without traversing the distance between (and let space revert to normal after the event.

This covers a lot of ground from the individual jump systems of the RDM Battlestar to the area effect of a RT space-fold with the idea of a true worm hole stapled on for good measure. I like this in a sci-fi TV series but I think it is my least favorite in a TTRPG setting.

the arguable 4th version is a variant of 3, the infinite improbity drive.... you convince the universe that you aren't where you are but really where you want to be... and the universe corrects to match.

You know I use to try this with my parents back in high school, trying to convince them I was where they wanted me instead of where I was. Never worked as well as the IID, never got a whale or a bowl of petunias.

I think there is another model, call it #5 natural phenomenon. I think Wing Commander had it but definitely things like the Andromeda TV show or the David Weber series but all had some sort of jump point that you had to enter to move from system to system and it was fixed. Want to go to system C you need to go to A then B then you can go to C. This is a great system if you want to set a map and the players can only go where there are jump points.

You can also use natural phenomenon to add on to options #2 or #3. Things like wormhole junctions in Honor Harrington can work with any FTL style but this is PW so you can also do permanent rifts or other such phenomenon. This can provide short cuts on galactic settings but also can be obstacles to overcome. Your PCs need to get from PW to the Anvil galaxy in days, not months? No problem take the Betelgeuse wormhole junction you'll be there in hours. Oops, you are wanted by the Betelgeuse authorities for cabbage incident a few years ago. Now you need to get around them and hijinks ensue. Plus there are all the galactic politics angles like what happens if the CCW finds a wormhole that goes from one of their colony worlds on rim to a system next door to the Kreeghor home world? Not sure how it gets resolved but it will be a mess.

Ultimately I think mixing and matching these would make for a more interesting setting, but if you do they have to be way better defined than the current FTL types are.

[taalismn]

Interdimensional Drives can also be used to effectively -seem- to go FTL, by jumping into an alternate universe(as the destination) where the laws of physics or relative scale allow one to then zip over to a point corresponding to your destination using a more conventional drive, then engage the D-drive again and pop back where you intended to go.
These systems, however, also tend to be expensive, rare, and some would argue, overly complicated.

[guardiandashi]

I am going to quibble that the star wars hyperdrive is absolutely NOT a star trek warp drive.
in star trek style warp the ship is still in normal space and can see "out" of the warp field, so they can stop, or turn (change course) without an issue.

star wars hyperdrive, they are NOT in "normal space, in fact if you examine the lore, where they are traveling there is essentially NOTHING there, the only thing you encounter is "mass shadows" of objects in "normal space"
(I mostly ignore the "monster" in solo, and the totally non lore hyperspace skipping in last jedi

[ShadowLogan]

I never did care for the explanation regarding the Cosmic Ley Lines and possibly the Forge itself interfering with Spacefold drive tech. So in my game I had a power bloc that used RT mecha figure out a work around and redesigned their spacefold drives so that they worked properly.

I know several people who did that, I never brought Robotech into PW. By the time we really started playing PW we had played all four 1e RTs to death and I had brought some of it in to my early Rifts games so we were ready to leave it behing.

This was not me.

Other drives are mentioned
1) Space-Fold (the kind found in Robotech) - DB 2 pg.152
- Described as not working in the 3G due to ley lines or the cosmic forge

2) Space Fold (this is a completely different type of space fold - Very poorly described in DB 3 pg.85 and 90 with additional notes in DB 6 pg. 131
- Used by extra-dimensional invaders called intruders
- cannot be replicated by 3G powers because it doesn't work with anti-matter power sources

I'm not convinced the Robotech/Macross2 and Intruder Space-Fold drives are or should be distinct sub-classes (though licensing requirements likely would push them to be "separate").

I'd also add that we do not know what the Intruders use as a power source, and it isn't clear (IIRC) if the Intruders are extra-dimensional or just from another galaxy in the PW universe.

[glitterboy2098]

i am, but then i'm basing the way that the robotech/macross drives function off the way they're shown to work in the shows.. where they are much closer to a 'hyperspace' style drive. the Intruder fold drive is described more like a BSG 'point to point" jump.

my own inclination is that the robotech/macross fold drives, since they cross into a higher dimensional 'hyperspace' and take a prolonged period in such a state during travel, are inaccurate in the 3G's because the standard contragravity FTL drives alter space to do their FTL thing, and as a result the 'shape' of spacetime keeps changing. which is mostly invisible in normal 3 dimensional perception, but in the hyperspace that RT fold drives operate in, the cumulative effects of so many CG drive ships operating basically constantly results in the target destination effectively 'moving' multiple times after the course is laid in and the drive activated. resulting in a course that should have taken you directly to somewhere dropping you off in an unexpected place.

[Warshield73]

I never did care for the explanation regarding the Cosmic Ley Lines and possibly the Forge itself interfering with Spacefold drive tech. So in my game I had a power bloc that used RT mecha figure out a work around and redesigned their spacefold drives so that they worked properly.

I know several people who did that, I never brought Robotech into PW. By the time we really started playing PW we had played all four 1e RTs to death and I had brought some of it in to my early Rifts games so we were ready to leave it behing.

This was not me.

Fixed, Sorry about that.

Interdimensional Drives can also be used to effectively -seem- to go FTL, by jumping into an alternate universe(as the destination) where the laws of physics or relative scale allow one to then zip over to a point corresponding to your destination using a more conventional drive, then engage the D-drive again and pop back where you intended to go.
These systems, however, also tend to be expensive, rare, and some would argue, overly complicated.

Isn't this just hyperspace as depicted in B5 and Honor Harrington, as well as others. I could see a rifts style take on this where you have a pocket dimension of sorts with a bunch of different fixed exit points. You fly through a rift in the anvil into this dimension, fly a few hundred thousand miles in empty space to another permanent rift going to a spot in the thundercloud. This is sort of what we see in the Expanse which is another interesting take on hyper-space.

I am going to quibble that the star wars hyperdrive is absolutely NOT a star trek warp drive.

Cool, I love a good quibble.

But just for the record

I have to say functionally Star Wars hyperspace is more like Star Trek warp drive than any of the other hyperspace systems.

That word functionally is doing all the heavy lifting here, and when I say function I mean narrative because the rest is just technobabble.

in star trek style warp the ship is still in normal space and can see "out" of the warp field, so they can stop, or turn (change course) without an issue.

star wars hyperdrive, they are NOT in "normal space, in fact if you examine the lore, where they are traveling there is essentially NOTHING there, the only thing you encounter is "mass shadows" of objects in "normal space"

In SW if you are in hyper-space and say eject in an escape pod or separate in a shuttle or fighter you immediately drop back into real space. It is also impossible to loiter in hyper-space in a position relative to a real space location. You can also be pulled out of hyper-space by various technologies which is simply not possible with the types of hyperspace I am talking about here. Stargate is similar here, they call it hyperspace but it isn't a separate environment you go to it is more like a state you can accelerate to and even be pulled out of. Also, true hyperspace leaves no room for the Holdo maneuver.

When you play a SW game or a ST game the act of FTL is the same, you go fast and you get to where you are going. In B5, HH and others like them hyperspace is a separate realm that you can become lost in or even fight battles in and most importantly if you enter it you have to have a way out. Ultimately that is what makes SW hyperspace closer to ST warp than that separate dimension we can hyperspace.

(I mostly ignore the "monster" in solo, and the totally non lore hyperspace skipping in last jedi

Episode 9 was the first Star Wars film that I did not see in the theaters having seen Episode 4 at the Pekin drive-in at the age of 5. When I finally sat down to watch it on Disney plus more than a year after it came out that scene made quit and not come back to it for weeks. I thought hyperspace ramming was bad.

Other drives are mentioned
1) Space-Fold (the kind found in Robotech) - DB 2 pg.152
- Described as not working in the 3G due to ley lines or the cosmic forge

2) Space Fold (this is a completely different type of space fold - Very poorly described in DB 3 pg.85 and 90 with additional notes in DB 6 pg. 131
- Used by extra-dimensional invaders called intruders
- cannot be replicated by 3G powers because it doesn't work with anti-matter power sources

I'm not convinced the Robotech/Macross2 and Intruder Space-Fold drives are or should be distinct sub-classes (though licensing requirements likely would push them to be "separate").

I'd also add that we do not know what the Intruders use as a power source,

This is a game so, at least for me, when we place them in different classes or sub-classes, we should look at how they function in the game. An RT SFD creates a bubble and moves a fleet, no visit to an alternate dimension and you can't wander around it like B5. Intruders, like BSG, just pop one ship from one place to another. Probably the same, I hat using this word in a discussion like this, scientific principal but not the same effect. As for the power source, I think we can assume it is just beyond the science of people in the 3G or maybe it is meant to be something more mystical.

...and it isn't clear (IIRC) if the Intruders are extra-dimensional or just from another galaxy in the PW universe.

You are correct. In DB3 it says they may come from one of the nearby galaxies or they may be interdimensional, so it seems up to the GM.

i am, but then i'm basing the way that the robotech/macross drives function off the way they're shown to work in the shows.. where they are much closer to a 'hyperspace' style drive. the Intruder fold drive is described more like a BSG 'point to point" jump.

While I am not sure about the RT hyperspace thing I do agree with the basic sentiment that when they function differently they should be considered different.

my own inclination is that the robotech/macross fold drives, since they cross into a higher dimensional 'hyperspace' and take a prolonged period in such a state during travel, are inaccurate in the 3G's because the standard contragravity FTL drives alter space to do their FTL thing, and as a result the 'shape' of spacetime keeps changing. which is mostly invisible in normal 3 dimensional perception, but in the hyperspace that RT fold drives operate in, the cumulative effects of so many CG drive ships operating basically constantly results in the target destination effectively 'moving' multiple times after the course is laid in and the drive activated. resulting in a course that should have taken you directly to somewhere dropping you off in an unexpected place.

I like this on a number of levels. First, the idea that CG drives leave lasting effects in spacetime is interesting. I read part of a book series were the act of using FTL drives had a small chance of destroying the galaxy so an advanced race was wiping out any intelligent species to prevent it, has vibes of that. The other is if RT fold drives do create a bubble that travels through hyperspace what effects would it have on hyperspace.

I mean if you have a B5/HH style hyperspace and you have ships traveling through in a giant fold bubble, what happens? Again if you are going to have different types of FTL that kind of interactions, to me at least, makes it more interesting and we aren't actually trying to build real FTL, we are trying to create an interesting setting for conflict and story.

[taalismn]

Isn't this just hyperspace as depicted in B5 and Honor Harrington, as well as others. I could see a rifts style take on this where you have a pocket dimension of sorts with a bunch of different fixed exit points. You fly through a rift in the anvil into this dimension, fly a few hundred thousand miles in empty space to another permanent rift going to a spot in the thundercloud. This is sort of what we see in the Expanse which is another interesting take on hyper-space.

The 'Hyperspace ' usually isn't inhabited or a. complete universe unto itself....I'm talking true alternate universe, not the crawlspaces between.
Now, one could argue that hyperspace is a complete universe, only it doesn't obey the sane laws as ours, so if it WAS inhabited, we wouldn't recognize its life even if we encountered it....the other side of the argument being we don't WANT to encounter the inhabitants of hyperspace. since they tend to be nasty, as evidenced when ships go missing.


As an added, there's two versions of hyperspace worth mentioning(for now)...in the webcomic StarSplit Crisis, the titular drive system seems perfectly alright....except it's discovered that it doesn't traverse space, but it slips into alternate dimensions so alike that travelers don't notice. They're really stranded in another universe, no way back. The reason nobody objectively notices this is because ships are replaced by their alternates, whose passengers also don't notice that there might be a fractional difference. However, make enough jumps and the odds catch up with you and you find increasing deviations in what you thought was reality.

The other is David Brin's Uplift Universe, where the extreme end of hyperspace is realms of THOUGHT, patrolled by specially trained observers of theGalactic Institute of Navigation. The funny thing is, from the vantage point of this extreme realm, the entire universe and its hyperspace bands appear as a narrow line encompassing EVERYTHING we in the mundane universe know. Sound easy for travelers popping into the thought-verse, to then jump down into the 'real' verse? Nope; because the thought-realm is inhabited by predatory memes that latch onto anything 'real' and assimilate it.

[ShadowLogan]

This is a game so, at least for me, when we place them in different classes or sub-classes, we should look at how they function in the game. An RT SFD creates a bubble and moves a fleet, no visit to an alternate dimension and you can't wander around it like B5. Intruders, like BSG, just pop one ship from one place to another. Probably the same, I hat using this word in a discussion like this, scientific principal but not the same effect. As for the power source, I think we can assume it is just beyond the science of people in the 3G or maybe it is meant to be something more mystical.

And this being a game for me, we should keep things simple and put them in the same class(es) reserving sub-classes for specific reasons. DB2 is very speculative in why the drives can't work, but DB6 seems more grounded in why the 3G powers can't do them (which obviously doesn't work for RT/M2 with their non-Anti-matter power sources, plus the Intruders' unknown source). WB9 has the Arkhons arriving at Rifts Earth via Space Fold, and even here the Arkhons speculate on what happened (with it repeating some of DB2 speculation but also a chance encounter with an anomaly), but that's Rifts Earth and not the 3G but even here the drives have issues which likely means we can rule out the Cosmic Forge speculation.

Now I could see putting Robotech and Macross2 Space Fold Drives separate from Megaversal examples due to licensing requirements and their supporting material*, but that doesn't mean they don't operate the same (or close to it) that we'd have to consider each separately if they end up functioning by the same or similar enough processes.

*For the record, while the Robotech Fold Drive (and even the Macross 2 version) does create a bubble to move the ship and surrounding objects around, however said bubble then travels in a hyperspace dimension and such a statement is backed up by various citations that could be provided from various episodes in Robotech (and likely exist for Macross/2), such as Episodes "Booby Trap", "Space Fold", "First Contact", "Vivia Miryia", "Dark Finale" to name but a few, and I"m sure I'm missing some as Fold's happen IN "Bye Bye Mars, "Paradise Lost", "Force of Arms" IINM, "Outsiders", "The Invid Invasion", and a later episode in TRM saga I forget the name of, probably "Sympony of Light" to boot.

my own inclination is that the robotech/macross fold drives, since they cross into a higher dimensional 'hyperspace' and take a prolonged period in such a state during travel, are inaccurate in the 3G's because the standard contragravity FTL drives alter space to do their FTL thing,

I think it's just easier to say that Robotech/Macross drives can operate fine, it's that they lack navigational data. There is evidence in the series that you have to do calculations for a Space Fold event ("Vivia Miryia" for example IIRC), so if you don't have accurate navigational data you might not be able to do the calculations and end up blind jumping

Then again we also know that in Robotech (and possibly even Macross) that you have to be "out of gravity" to execute a Fold (per Exedure in "Space Fold"), so the CG fields might act as being not "out of gravity" for RT/M2 Fold Drives causing near vicinity disruptions (but that likely is also localized). No need to go beyond either resorting to interactions wild speculation on higher dimensions and their interaction with lower (especially since we're dealing with mixing licensed products)

[Warshield73]

Isn't this just hyperspace as depicted in B5 and Honor Harrington, as well as others. I could see a rifts style take on this where you have a pocket dimension of sorts with a bunch of different fixed exit points. You fly through a rift in the anvil into this dimension, fly a few hundred thousand miles in empty space to another permanent rift going to a spot in the thundercloud. This is sort of what we see in the Expanse which is another interesting take on hyper-space.

The 'Hyperspace ' usually isn't inhabited or a. complete universe unto itself....I'm talking true alternate universe, not the crawlspaces between.
Now, one could argue that hyperspace is a complete universe, only it doesn't obey the sane laws as ours, so if it WAS inhabited, we wouldn't recognize its life even if we encountered it....the other side of the argument being we don't WANT to encounter the inhabitants of hyperspace. since they tend to be nasty, as evidenced when ships go missing.

I tend to take the view that it is more of a crawlspace as you put it rather than a complete dimension so I get where you are going with this. even the dimensional bubble that we see in the expanse with its hundreds of gateways would also be more of a crawlspace than a separate dimension. In game terms I'm just not sure how this would even manifest. Do I fly my heavy cruiser out of the door of a house, cross some farmland to a big city and then fly through the windown of an apartment building to get to where I am going?

I think the one place in Palladium that already exists that might fit this is the astral plane, especially the void.

As an added, there's two versions of hyperspace worth mentioning(for now)...in the webcomic StarSplit Crisis, the titular drive system seems perfectly alright....except it's discovered that it doesn't traverse space, but it slips into alternate dimensions so alike that travelers don't notice. They're really stranded in another universe, no way back. The reason nobody objectively notices this is because ships are replaced by their alternates, whose passengers also don't notice that there might be a fractional difference. However, make enough jumps and the odds catch up with you and you find increasing deviations in what you thought was reality.

The other is David Brin's Uplift Universe, where the extreme end of hyperspace is realms of THOUGHT, patrolled by specially trained observers of theGalactic Institute of Navigation. The funny thing is, from the vantage point of this extreme realm, the entire universe and its hyperspace bands appear as a narrow line encompassing EVERYTHING we in the mundane universe know. Sound easy for travelers popping into the thought-verse, to then jump down into the 'real' verse? Nope; because the thought-realm is inhabited by predatory memes that latch onto anything 'real' and assimilate it.

These sound interesting but I don't think either really fits the feel of Phase World very well.

This is a game so, at least for me, when we place them in different classes or sub-classes, we should look at how they function in the game. An RT SFD creates a bubble and moves a fleet, no visit to an alternate dimension and you can't wander around it like B5. Intruders, like BSG, just pop one ship from one place to another. Probably the same, I hat using this word in a discussion like this, scientific principal but not the same effect. As for the power source, I think we can assume it is just beyond the science of people in the 3G or maybe it is meant to be something more mystical.

And this being a game for me, we should keep things simple and put them in the same class(es) reserving sub-classes for specific reasons. DB2 is very speculative in why the drives can't work, but DB6 seems more grounded in why the 3G powers can't do them (which obviously doesn't work for RT/M2 with their non-Anti-matter power sources, plus the Intruders' unknown source). WB9 has the Arkhons arriving at Rifts Earth via Space Fold, and even here the Arkhons speculate on what happened (with it repeating some of DB2 speculation but also a chance encounter with an anomaly), but that's Rifts Earth and not the 3G but even here the drives have issues which likely means we can rule out the Cosmic Forge speculation.

Now I could see putting Robotech and Macross2 Space Fold Drives separate from Megaversal examples due to licensing requirements and their supporting material*, but that doesn't mean they don't operate the same (or close to it) that we'd have to consider each separately if they end up functioning by the same or similar enough processes.

*For the record, while the Robotech Fold Drive (and even the Macross 2 version) does create a bubble to move the ship and surrounding objects around, however said bubble then travels in a hyperspace dimension and such a statement is backed up by various citations that could be provided from various episodes in Robotech (and likely exist for Macross/2), such as Episodes "Booby Trap", "Space Fold", "First Contact", "Vivia Miryia", "Dark Finale" to name but a few, and I"m sure I'm missing some as Fold's happen IN "Bye Bye Mars, "Paradise Lost", "Force of Arms" IINM, "Outsiders", "The Invid Invasion", and a later episode in TRM saga I forget the name of, probably "Sympony of Light" to boot.

I mean if you want to keep it really simple you can lump all of these together and just call it "FTL" even though many of them aren't true FTL.

Each of these drives can be boiled down to a few basic descriptions and grouped accordingly. I mean hyperspace in Babylon 5 is radically different than in Honor Harrington with B5 using gates and opening portals allowing ships without a jump drive of its own to enter hyperspace while Honor Harrington requires any ship that enters hyper to have its own drive or be inside a ship that does. Despite these differences the way ships operate and move from system to system is similar enough to group them.

On the other hand, Star Wars and Star Gate call there systems hyperspace and they do travel through another dimension but it functions very differently as I described earlier. Ultimately, hyperspace should be looked at in terms of can they interact. A B5 ship in hyperspace can interact with a HH but a SW or SG ship couldn't. We know they can't because they don't withing there own setting.

The various kinds of spacefold can also be broken down into a couple of categories. To me the most obvious is instant vs...well it takes time and then is it area effect like RT or just the ship like BSG and presumably Intruders.

my own inclination is that the robotech/macross fold drives, since they cross into a higher dimensional 'hyperspace' and take a prolonged period in such a state during travel, are inaccurate in the 3G's because the standard contragravity FTL drives alter space to do their FTL thing,

I think it's just easier to say that Robotech/Macross drives can operate fine, it's that they lack navigational data. There is evidence in the series that you have to do calculations for a Space Fold event ("Vivia Miryia" for example IIRC), so if you don't have accurate navigational data you might not be able to do the calculations and end up blind jumping

Then again we also know that in Robotech (and possibly even Macross) that you have to be "out of gravity" to execute a Fold (per Exedure in "Space Fold"), so the CG fields might act as being not "out of gravity" for RT/M2 Fold Drives causing near vicinity disruptions (but that likely is also localized). No need to go beyond either resorting to interactions wild speculation on higher dimensions and their interaction with lower (especially since we're dealing with mixing licensed products)

Given what happens to the Arkohn fold drives in rifts I think the easiest thing to say is that they become less accurate and more prone to mishaps in high magic environments. Now, this can be good for storyline because maybe all an RT fold ship needs to operate is understanding of LLs and nexus points and maybe even maps of the major ones so they can chart courses to avoid them.

[taalismn]

These sound interesting but I don't think either really fits the feel of Phase World very well.

Not as is, since it would constitute conversions, but it does suggest the sort of exotic techniques some of the more eccentric or foolhardy species may develop/delve into. Or even how some species might PERCEIVE hyperspace, just as some how some species(and individuals) might see teleportation as essentially suicide with an exact duplicate being materialized at the other end.

[ShadowLogan]

Each of these drives can be boiled down to a few basic descriptions and grouped accordingly. I mean hyperspace in Babylon 5 is radically different than in Honor Harrington with B5 using gates and opening portals allowing ships without a jump drive of its own to enter hyperspace while Honor Harrington requires any ship that enters hyper to have its own drive or be inside a ship that does. Despite these differences the way ships operate and move from system to system is similar enough to group them.

On the other hand, Star Wars and Star Gate call there systems hyperspace and they do travel through another dimension but it functions very differently as I described earlier. Ultimately, hyperspace should be looked at in terms of can they interact. A B5 ship in hyperspace can interact with a HH but a SW or SG ship couldn't. We know they can't because they don't withing there own setting.

The various kinds of spacefold can also be broken down into a couple of categories. To me the most obvious is instant vs...well it takes time and then is it area effect like RT or just the ship like BSG and presumably Intruders.

The thing is I don't think we have any real indication if the Intruders times for Fold are instant or transit, especially since they are primarily intended as NPCs. We know how far they can fold, but we don't have the time frame. Something similar happens in the Robotech (2E, nothing is stated in 1E or M2 for distance v time either, in fact 1E/M2 doesn't restrict the range of a jump at all), and the only reason we know there is a transit time in RT is due to the source material. So (game) mechanically I can't see a reason to keep them separate, the only reason I can see to keep them separate is due to licensing.

Game Mechanically speaking I can see a reason to keep the Fold separate from the Rift Jump and CG-FTL and Wormhole drives.

3G is also something of an anomaly when you consider those other settings tend to only have 1 option for FTL (aside from natural phenomena), I think Star Trek might be the only one with more than one (and that really didn't come up until Voyager or Discovery) and BSG it depends if we're talking original or the remake (IIRC the Original)

Given what happens to the Arkohn fold drives in rifts I think the easiest thing to say is that they become less accurate and more prone to mishaps in high magic environments. Now, this can be good for storyline because maybe all an RT fold ship needs to operate is understanding of LLs and nexus points and maybe even maps of the major ones so they can chart courses to avoid them.

I'm not sure if its the high magic environment per say, the Arkohns entry referencing a dimensional anomaly.

WB9 pg67:
-"The dimensional energies around Earth played havoc with the space-folding systems of the alien ships."

WB9 pg68:
-The aliens then discovered that every single space-fold drive and faster-than-light system in their ships had been completely burnt out by the dimensional anomaly."
-"The communications problems may be the result of debris orbiting the planet or dimensional anomalies surrounding it."

It is true they don't have much exposure to magic when they arrived, but they where not unaware of it given 2,000 years ago the Nazca repelled them using it.

But we don't know if this was a "chance" encounter with a dimensional anomaly at Rifts Earth or what happens any/every-time a Fold Drive is used. And if we look at the 3G setting we know it's possible to have Fold Drives that seem to operate "normally" in high magic environments.

[Warshield73]

I want to preface the next part of the conversation with something that no one wants to hear.
There is no such thing as faster than light travel. It sucks I know, it would be so cool it existed, but it doesn't. The only reason to have it is to further a story/plot. In fiction you can leave it as vague or make it as complex as your story demands and the FTL should fit the story you want to tell.

In the Starfire series David Weber wanted to tell an island-hopping story in space with natural choke points and mass charges of ships through the "straights" so that series uses I vaguely defined natural jump point system.

In Honor Harrington the tech is front and center so that hyperspace system is very clearly defined as is wormholes in that setting.

In B5 Starzynski wanted a vaguely hellish looking space that had natural sort of crossroads so we get hyper gates and a vague hyperspace system where ships can get lost if they stray from the path (beacons) and they move at the speed of plot.

Of course in Robotech the SDF had to have a drive that took most of the island with it when it jumped so we get these giant fold bubbles.

All FTL in sci-fi is designed in service of the story, sometimes to the point that it is never explained at all.

Now we want FTL travel that works in a TTRPG game which means our players have to be able to understand it (abilities, limitations, ubiquity and dangers) at least as much as someone in the setting.

I have to admit that as this conversation has gone on I would be tempted to make Phase World have multiple types of FTL. Maybe you start with a hyperspace system, sort of that interdimensional crawlspace that is dangerous and unpredictable. The first to use it were mages opening rifts to get in. Remember, this is a system where magic plays a prominent part so having a special FTL for magic would be good. Later you get phase drives that allow you to phase into hyperspace. But then you get the pure tech solution, CCG drives. True in real space FTL. Not as fast, more expansive but safer and can be used by anyone. You might also have some sort of psychic drive that uses the void in the astral realm to move about.

Maybe this system has mystically powered hyper gates maybe it doesn't but it could work as a premise.

These sound interesting but I don't think either really fits the feel of Phase World very well.

Not as is, since it would constitute conversions, but it does suggest the sort of exotic techniques some of the more eccentric or foolhardy species may develop/delve into. Or even how some species might PERCEIVE hyperspace, just as some how some species(and individuals) might see teleportation as essentially suicide with an exact duplicate being materialized at the other end.

To me drives like this sound like some weird special project that when tested brings in some horrible dark power that tries to destroy all life...well this is Rifts so it would have to get in line but I could see it.

Each of these drives can be boiled down to a few basic descriptions and grouped accordingly. I mean hyperspace in Babylon 5 is radically different than in Honor Harrington with B5 using gates and opening portals allowing ships without a jump drive of its own to enter hyperspace while Honor Harrington requires any ship that enters hyper to have its own drive or be inside a ship that does. Despite these differences the way ships operate and move from system to system is similar enough to group them.

On the other hand, Star Wars and Star Gate call there systems hyperspace and they do travel through another dimension but it functions very differently as I described earlier. Ultimately, hyperspace should be looked at in terms of can they interact. A B5 ship in hyperspace can interact with a HH but a SW or SG ship couldn't. We know they can't because they don't withing there own setting.

The various kinds of spacefold can also be broken down into a couple of categories. To me the most obvious is instant vs...well it takes time and then is it area effect like RT or just the ship like BSG and presumably Intruders.

The thing is I don't think we have any real indication if the Intruders times for Fold are instant or transit, especially since they are primarily intended as NPCs. We know how far they can fold, but we don't have the time frame. Something similar happens in the Robotech (2E, nothing is stated in 1E or M2 for distance v time either, in fact 1E/M2 doesn't restrict the range of a jump at all), and the only reason we know there is a transit time in RT is due to the source material. So (game) mechanically I can't see a reason to keep them separate, the only reason I can see to keep them separate is due to licensing.

Like I said the big difference is the area effect. As for the drives, yeah we know nothing about either of them. As they are not something an individual PC will use in those games I assume they just didn't think to stat it out.

The intruders we do know that they can do five 100 LY jumps per day. That means the slowest they could go and achieve that is around 21 LYpH so we have a minimum speed for that. This is why I say that in most ways the Intruders seem to work like the jump drive in BSG. Maybe that is why their fold drive works and RT doesn't? A single ship transit might be more stable than a giant bubble of folded space or less susceptible to mystical interference.

Game Mechanically speaking I can see a reason to keep the Fold separate from the Rift Jump and CG-FTL and Wormhole drives.

The game mechanics are really all that matter. CG drives and phase drives are completely different systems, as is the warp drive of Star Trek or the hyperspace of Star Wars & Stargate, so they can all be lumped together under general FTL.

All indications are that the Arkohn space fold systems work nearly identically to that of RT with area effect folds and kind of variable travel times so it makes sense to lump them together even though one is powered by anti-matter (the Arkohn power of choice) and the RT ships have protoculture. I am not making a licensing argument because we are talking about broad concepts of science fiction. If I was writing a PW supplement then I would have to take that into account but not in this.

3G is also something of an anomaly when you consider those other settings tend to only have 1 option for FTL (aside from natural phenomena), I think Star Trek might be the only one with more than one (and that really didn't come up until Voyager or Discovery) and BSG it depends if we're talking original or the remake (IIRC the Original)

This is usually a narrative decision. You want the different groups to interact they need to have compatible tech, including FTL. Also, since FTL is impossible they probably figure one system works.

In some systems thought the difference in FTL is a part of the story. In Stargate everyone uses their version of hyperspace because everyone got it from the ancients. However, when we get to Universe a big deal is made of the fact that the Destiny is traveling at FTL in real space. In B5 both the shadows and vorlons can move through hyperspace in different ways than the younger races are capable of. This is kind of what I was getting to earlier, if you have different modes of FTL it should serve a narrative function even if it is to show that one group is substantially more advanced.

Given what happens to the Arkohn fold drives in rifts I think the easiest thing to say is that they become less accurate and more prone to mishaps in high magic environments. Now, this can be good for storyline because maybe all an RT fold ship needs to operate is understanding of LLs and nexus points and maybe even maps of the major ones so they can chart courses to avoid them.

I'm not sure if its the high magic environment per say, the Arkohns entry referencing a dimensional anomaly.

WB9 pg67:
-"The dimensional energies around Earth played havoc with the space-folding systems of the alien ships."

WB9 pg68:
-The aliens then discovered that every single space-fold drive and faster-than-light system in their ships had been completely burnt out by the dimensional anomaly."
-"The communications problems may be the result of debris orbiting the planet or dimensional anomalies surrounding it."

It is true they don't have much exposure to magic when they arrived, but they where not unaware of it given 2,000 years ago the Nazca repelled them using it.

But we don't know if this was a "chance" encounter with a dimensional anomaly at Rifts Earth or what happens any/every-time a Fold Drive is used. And if we look at the 3G setting we know it's possible to have Fold Drives that seem to operate "normally" in high magic environments.

Mystic energy fuels dimensional rifts, or as more scientifically inclined would say anomalies, and the mostly form at nexus points so having those maps could still be helpful.

[glitterboy2098]

Honor Harrington actually uses a "b5ish hyperspace" set up. With currents in it so he could do FTL drives as big sails as part of the "Horatio Hornblower in space" motif. It's just wormholes also exist (as extremely powerful hyperspace currents)

[ShadowLogan]

All indications are that the Arkohn space fold systems work nearly identically to that of RT with area effect folds and kind of variable travel times so it makes sense to lump them together even though one is powered by anti-matter (the Arkohn power of choice) and the RT ships have protoculture. I am not making a licensing argument because we are talking about broad concepts of science fiction. If I was writing a PW supplement then I would have to take that into account but not in this.

An official PW supplement I suspect could not touch/mention the issue again as Palladium lacks the licenses for those properties (and likely isn't going to get the license back anytime soon). For a fan discussion though, with the level of available information licensing is the only reason I could see putting them into separate categories (or even as sub-categories).

The thing with the Arkohns, Intruders, and RT/M2 drives its entirely possible they all work with area effects and that area effect can be manipulated/controlled (and in RT IINM it can be shown they don't need to do large radius of effect in its supporting media)

Mystic energy fuels dimensional rifts, or as more scientifically inclined would say anomalies, and the mostly form at nexus points so having those maps could still be helpful.

Navigational data is key to getting anywhere you want to go in a reasonable amount of time.

I'm not sure the connection on mystic energy per say is a requirement. We know that in Rifts you can create such phenomena with just technology ("Time Holes" in WB26 had tech based travel portals before the GC and its mystic energies altered the site into the "time holes", Kremin Cyborgs had dimensional tech in WB11/30 and so do the Vernulians in WB1o/30, neither of them have magic/access to it prior to arrival on Rifts Earth, possibly even the Gene Splicers and the Naruni (Naruni could subcontract the work out of course) are all examples that can be pointed to in the books).

As such I'm not inclined per say to say that mystic energy was required per say for dimensional anomaly or any of its attributes, I do not dispute that it could fuel it, but there are indications it might not be necessary for it to form. So it might the equivalent of different power sources available to an automobile, it really doesn't matter how the power is created (combustion of various fuels, stored energy in a battery, solar cell, chemical reaction) the end product is the same via the turning of the wheels (the anomaly).