If ogres and humans can use tattoo magic, what about earlier hominids like neanderthals?

[Warshield73]

This is related to some of the Splugorth stuff I have been working on, but the question is simple, if extremely odd.
How human do you have to be to receive magic tattoos and can some of these other hominids receive them?

Ogres can.
What about neanderthals?
Longer shot, what about uplifted or mutant chimps or bonobos?

Spoiler:

My answer is yes to cro-mags, maybe...probably neanderthals and no on chimps.

[ShadowLogan]

No to:
Neanderthals. They are a separate species or sub species
I wouldn't allow earlier hominids (and uplifting them would be a definite no)
Uplifted Primates (chimp, bonobos, etc).

Some of the human variants mentioned in WB21 pg107 (also in BoM) could be considered sub-species so I would say no to the notion of any sub-species unless specifically identified (like TAs). Now WB21 puts caveats of supernatural qualifier for human variants, but it also doesn't seem to consider the possibility of human ancestors like neaderthal or erectus or habilis coming forward in time even though we have dinosaurs being brought forward in time which might mean if they are they'd also be "enhanced" like the dinosaurs making them an out no I would think (and even if you go back in time they might be considered distinct enough to not be human).

[Warshield73]

No to:
Neanderthals. They are a separate species or sub species
I wouldn't allow earlier hominids (and uplifting them would be a definite no)
Uplifted Primates (chimp, bonobos, etc).

Some of the human variants mentioned in WB21 pg107 (also in BoM) could be considered sub-species so I would say no to the notion of any sub-species unless specifically identified (like TAs). Now WB21 puts caveats of supernatural qualifier for human variants, but it also doesn't seem to consider the possibility of human ancestors like neaderthal or erectus or habilis coming forward in time even though we have dinosaurs being brought forward in time which might mean if they are they'd also be "enhanced" like the dinosaurs making them an out no I would think (and even if you go back in time they might be considered distinct enough to not be human).

The only thing that puts this into a maybe for me is that True Atlanteans and regular humans can both get them, but they can not interbreed. Neanderthals though, can interbreed with regular humans so they seem closer to humans than TAs.

[Curbludgeon]

I forget, is there text about space requirements for magic tattoos?
I'd love to throw 6 on a hominidion out of TDTMNT going for needless IQ or Gizmoteer, but they're tiny. Even the SDC bonus is nice here.
Monster Shaping would be the first, going for something the closest to human. Since we're ignoring culture restrictions next is a Dimensional.

I mean it's goofy but it ain't the goofiest.

There are some human variants. A Terran in the old Manhunters, a little Skraypers stuff. Can Lemurians and Humans have young?

[Library Ogre]

Cro-magnons are as human and you and me. Well, me. I won't put words in your mouth.

Neandertals are different, though whether they're a species or subspecies is, as I understand it, under debate. I'd allow them to, partially because so many humans have Neandertal DNA, and would have by the height of Atlantis 25,000 years ago (the Neandertal having died out 20,000 years before that). I'd lean towards them being able to use tattoo magic.

I'd probably draw a wuzzy line just above Homo erectus, but I'm not married to that.

[ShadowLogan]

Here's the thing though, are the various known recipients of T-magic there because of genetic chance or on purpose? Nothing indicates those who can receive the magic are there by genetic chance. We also know of various human variant RCCs that are blocked from receiving T-magic. Wouldn't Neanderthals and Cro-magnons become another human variant RCC essentially, and a case might exist for them to be mutated by their time displacement (as dinosaurs appear to be).

I went to Transdimensional TMNT for possible answers but they don't have them stated out in fact on pg16 "Note that Homo Sapiens, including Neanderthal (from 100,000-35,000 years ago) and Cro-Magnon Man, are so close to modern humans that their mutations would be considered mutant humans, not mutant hominids." While this is from TMNT as opposed to Rifts (and might be that way due to adhering to their source material), it seems to suggest that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons could be considered humans for game purposes, but they could also be considered mutants depending on how one views the statement. And we are told mutant humans aren't viable for the magic.

So there are things that point to them being ineligible. Just being able to breed doesn't make for them to be eligible on the genetic front, we see that with various human mutant RCCs that can breed with humans but are still off the list (plus PB doesn't do 1/2 breeds so).

Now I will admit that TD-TMNT at least suggests that they could have received the magic in the past, but that is based on TD-TMNT statement which may or may not still apply in Rifts/PF.

[Library Ogre]

Here's the thing though, are the various known recipients of T-magic there because of genetic chance or on purpose? Nothing indicates those who can receive the magic are there by genetic chance. We also know of various human variant RCCs that are blocked from receiving T-magic. Wouldn't Neanderthals and Cro-magnons become another human variant RCC essentially, and a case might exist for them to be mutated by their time displacement (as dinosaurs appear to be).

Which ones? And are they ones with significant magic of their own?

Like, Sea Titans are basically demi-gods. Earth Children and Light Children radically transform as part of their daily lives.

Tattoo magic is basically a method of enchanting a person; once they're enchanted enough, they become indestructible (by normal means, but, well..., we know how that goes). But if you've got someone who is enchanted already, with a different kind of magic... it might be hard to enchant them in another way.

[Warshield73]

Cro-magnons are as human and you and me. Well, me. I won't put words in your mouth.

Neandertals are different, though whether they're a species or subspecies is, as I understand it, under debate. I'd allow them to, partially because so many humans have Neandertal DNA, and would have by the height of Atlantis 25,000 years ago (the Neandertal having died out 20,000 years before that). I'd lean towards them being able to use tattoo magic.

I'd probably draw a wuzzy line just above Homo erectus, but I'm not married to that.

This is the page I'm on.

Here's the thing though, are the various known recipients of T-magic there because of genetic chance or on purpose? Nothing indicates those who can receive the magic are there by genetic chance. We also know of various human variant RCCs that are blocked from receiving T-magic. Wouldn't Neanderthals and Cro-magnons become another human variant RCC essentially, and a case might exist for them to be mutated by their time displacement (as dinosaurs appear to be).

Not sure, however it is humans and ogres, who can interbreed, true Atlanteans who are supposed to be human and originally could interbreed but now can't and elves who can't with any of these groups but they also suffer horribly from the tattoos making them more of a punishment than power.

This is what leads me to think along the lines of genetics.

Here's the thing though, are the various known recipients of T-magic there because of genetic chance or on purpose? Nothing indicates those who can receive the magic are there by genetic chance. We also know of various human variant RCCs that are blocked from receiving T-magic. Wouldn't Neanderthals and Cro-magnons become another human variant RCC essentially, and a case might exist for them to be mutated by their time displacement (as dinosaurs appear to be).

Which ones? And are they ones with significant magic of their own?

Like, Sea Titans are basically demi-gods. Earth Children and Light Children radically transform as part of their daily lives.

Tattoo magic is basically a method of enchanting a person; once they're enchanted enough, they become indestructible (by normal means, but, well..., we know how that goes). But if you've got someone who is enchanted already, with a different kind of magic... it might be hard to enchant them in another way.

Those examples, despite being basically human, are effectively creatures of magic or even supernatural being so I kind of say no to tattoo magic for them.

[Library Ogre]

Not sure, however it is humans and ogres, who can interbreed, true Atlanteans who are supposed to be human and originally could interbreed but now can't and elves who can't with any of these groups but they also suffer horribly from the tattoos making them more of a punishment than power.

This is what leads me to think along the lines of genetics.

My fun headcanon: Ogres are what you get when True Atlanteans lose the support of their technology (both physical and magical)

[Warshield73]

Not sure, however it is humans and ogres, who can interbreed, true Atlanteans who are supposed to be human and originally could interbreed but now can't and elves who can't with any of these groups but they also suffer horribly from the tattoos making them more of a punishment than power.

This is what leads me to think along the lines of genetics.

My fun headcanon: Ogres are what you get when True Atlanteans lose the support of their technology (both physical and magical)

The head canon I got from this is that elves were once humans that were mystically altered by the old ones. They are close to humans, so they can get the tattoos, but they have been altered enough to cause them to suffer from the tattoos.

[ShadowLogan]

Which ones? And are they ones with significant magic of their own?

Like, Sea Titans are basically demi-gods. Earth Children and Light Children radically transform as part of their daily lives.

Tattoo magic is basically a method of enchanting a person; once they're enchanted enough, they become indestructible (by normal means, but, well..., we know how that goes). But if you've got someone who is enchanted already, with a different kind of magic... it might be hard to enchant them in another way.

I agree Tattoo magic is a method of enchanting a person, but we know you can do something similar to practically speaking any other race via the use of Wards. You also have things like the (human) Nazca in Rifts Earth SA (#2) with their Line Magic, or Rifts Earth Japan (WB8 pg43) that includes a unique "lesser" form of M-Tat that doesn't have racial restrictions (AFAIK, but its only available to Yakuza and their allies per text, nor is a racial restriction on Line Magic OCCs AFAIK), and IIRC there is mention of another race in PF setting (Danzi in Eastern Territories), but I don't have that book so can only state it exists.

The question that might answer this is what do the Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal (canon) stats actually look like? I know TD-TMNT suggests they are basically human, but it also indicates they have attribute modifiers (it also groups other hominids together into one base line). That's the TD-TMNT take on the issue (which is likely influenced by its source material), but as far as I know a strict PB setting hasn't covered them.

Not sure, however it is humans and ogres, who can interbreed, true Atlanteans who are supposed to be human and originally could interbreed but now can't and elves who can't with any of these groups but they also suffer horribly from the tattoos making them more of a punishment than power.

This is what leads me to think along the lines of genetics.

Yes, but of the 5 races on the list, only 2 can successfully inter-breed. IMHO that makes it less likely the ability to interbreed is a factor here given humans can still successfully interbreed with their numerous variants that still cannot receive the m-tats.

What I think we really need to know is how Tattoo magic can be so restrictive to who can receive/utilize it (those who can grant the tattoos don't need to be any of the 5 after all as Splugorth and their High Lords can practice it to grant the tatts).

[Plane]

Ogres were at one point referred to as neanderthals so I'd be fine letting them have it but not any further back on the ape spectrum despite the weirdness of elves.

[Library Ogre]

The head canon I got from this is that elves were once humans that were mystically altered by the old ones. They are close to humans, so they can get the tattoos, but they have been altered enough to cause them to suffer from the tattoos.

Oooooh, I like that.

I agree Tattoo magic is a method of enchanting a person, but we know you can do something similar to practically speaking any other race via the use of Wards.

IMO, ward magic is a very different thing. Even with a permanence ward, it doesn't enchant them (in the magical item sense), it places an enchantment on them. A tattoo changes a person; each one gives you PPE and SDC, and enough of them turns you completely MDC.

The tattoo bearer is in control of the magic they are given, as well. A ward-bearer is not in control of their magic, and if you somehow remove the permanence ward from a person, that enchantment is completely gone.

You also have things like the (human) Nazca in Rifts Earth SA (#2) with their Line Magic, or Rifts Earth Japan (WB8 pg43) that includes a unique "lesser" form of M-Tat that doesn't have racial restrictions (AFAIK, but its only available to Yakuza and their allies per text, nor is a racial restriction on Line Magic OCCs AFAIK), and IIRC there is mention of another race in PF setting (Danzi in Eastern Territories), but I don't have that book so can only state it exists.

For that, I view it as "magic involving tattoos", rather than "Tattoo Magic", the art created by the Chiang-ku. It may be a derivative of Tattoo Magic, it may be something else (mystic calligraphy, a variation on ward magic, or something else entirely), but it is not Tattoo Magic... similar to how the Animate Dead wizard spell is necromancy, but not Necromancy, or the Mystic Alarm spell is similar to Ward Magic, but is not Ward Magic. The first is a technique which superficially looks like part of the larger practice, but doesn't embrace the breadth of it.

(That's kind of my view of Wizardry in general... the fine art of kinda emulating another kind of magic)

The question that might answer this is what do the Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal (canon) stats actually look like? I know TD-TMNT suggests they are basically human, but it also indicates they have attribute modifiers (it also groups other hominids together into one base line). That's the TD-TMNT take on the issue (which is likely influenced by its source material), but as far as I know a strict PB setting hasn't covered them.

Assuming we are talking the real-world individuals, I would simply write them as humans, perhaps with cultural/environmental modifiers... it would be a rare one who didn't have Athletics and Running, not because they get out and jog in the mornings, but because those are part of their daily lives.

What I think we really need to know is how Tattoo magic can be so restrictive to who can receive/utilize it (those who can grant the tattoos don't need to be any of the 5 after all as Splugorth and their High Lords can practice it to grant the tatts).

That *is* an interesting question. I'd guess the answer lies with the Chiang-Ku, but it raises the question as to why the Splugorth and their minions, with millennia of experience, haven't figured out how to make it work differently.

Ogres were at one point referred to as neanderthals so I'd be fine letting them have it but not any further back on the ape spectrum despite the weirdness of elves.

Eh... I tend to gloss over that, or take it less literally, especially since PF ogres have always been bigger than the human average (1e: 6-8' tall, 2e 8-10' tall), while Neanderthals are noted for being shorter. The Megaverse runs on vibes, after all.

[Plane]

https://www.newscientist.com/article/22 ... n-thought/

The Le Rozel footprints matched modern man, so maybe there were varieties of neanderthal who were short and tall.

The ones who died out and left bones for us to find were clearly the small ones, while the tall ones were rifted from Earth to Palladium to serve as slave stock for the old ones! That's why we don't find the bones of the large ones and think they were all short, naturally.

We only found the runts!

[Warshield73]

https://www.newscientist.com/article/22 ... n-thought/

The Le Rozel footprints matched modern man, so maybe there were varieties of neanderthal who were short and tall.

The ones who died out and left bones for us to find were clearly the small ones, while the tall ones were rifted from Earth to Palladium to serve as slave stock for the old ones! That's why we don't find the bones of the large ones and think they were all short, naturally.

We only found the runts!

I like this. I have always wondered if the Atlanteans or even the Lemurians had any knowledge of the Old Ones so this might be interesting. I also thought that humans might have been taken from lots of different alternate earths so you could go to a different dimension and find an earth with no humans but remains of early humans that were taken off tens of thousands of years ago.

Truthfully for me this comes back to trying to create some new minions for the Splugorth and I was trying to think who else could get these tattoos. I was also thinking of just saying "hey this funky race that this one splugorth found can also get the tattoos if they you know spit on a dead human jump one leg 5 times" but this seemed like less of a cheat.

[ShadowLogan]

Assuming we are talking the real-world individuals, I would simply write them as humans, perhaps with cultural/environmental modifiers... it would be a rare one who didn't have Athletics and Running, not because they get out and jog in the mornings, but because those are part of their daily lives.

Except they do have some differences with humans that are visible in the fossil record. Cro-magnons are also geographically confined, but I agree with the basic notion BUT also have to consider that we are looking at stats for homo sapiens as they exist in the 20-21st Century, and it's just assumed our stats haven't changed over 10,000+ years which I think we could go with for the CM/Ns, but the fact we are talking about them as separate species/sub-species would IMHO indicate they have differences somewhere.

I'm almost willing to consider the TAs to be Cro-Magnons for simplicity (though Cro-Magnons are supposed to be geographically confined, but if additional remains are on "lost" Atlantis or otherwise lost...).

That *is* an interesting question. I'd guess the answer lies with the Chiang-Ku, but it raises the question as to why the Splugorth and their minions, with millennia of experience, haven't figured out how to make it work differently.

Text in WB2 (pg13) suggests the TAs where added to the list after contact (though the magic is something they developed after contact?). Now how (normal) humans, Ogres, and Elves fit into this before/after isn't established. So it would seem like the list isn't "fixed" and can be added to (though specific dates are lacking here).

We also don't know how long the Splugorth have been using T-Magic either, it could be a relatively new product for them (we know the T-class in WB21 is).

like this. I have always wondered if the Atlanteans or even the Lemurians had any knowledge of the Old Ones so this might be interesting.

It's possible in their dimensional travels the TA could have encountered knowledge of the Old One if they ever visited the Palladium World, but its questionable if they had any participation with them.

Given the time line in PF2E (pg281) the Age of Chaos END occurred 100,000 years ago (possibly even 20,000 years before that per text). Humans do date back to the Age of Light (which starts at this point), but don't become a player until 20,000 years ago on the Palladium World.

While our species (in real world) is believed to be somewhere between 200-300,000 years old, that includes our archaic form (which some suggest should be a separate species to boot) with our modern form being 160,000 years ago. Note our modern form of "cognition" is even younger about 40,000 years old so prior to this its questionable if you can go back much further than this IMHO. I'd also add this means either Time Travel is involved in humans being on the Palladium World, or a case for Parallel evolution occurred on the Palladium World (even assuming human imports, they'd still be subject to evolution).

Truthfully for me this comes back to trying to create some new minions for the Splugorth and I was trying to think who else could get these tattoos. I was also thinking of just saying "hey this funky race that this one splugorth found can also get the tattoos if they you know spit on a dead human jump one leg 5 times" but this seemed like less of a cheat.

You know I wonder if a Bio-Wizard Limb (Taken OFF OF OR CLONED ((by Kittani))) could also work as a location for T-Magic? There isn't any indication on how the two classes of magic interact in the T-Men OCCs (in WB2, didn't check WB21's), as they could in theory receive bio-wizard modifications for missing limbs instead of Bio-System Cybernetics (they avoid mechanical limbs).

But if we're dealing a fan-created race, I don't see a problem necessarily with having them as unknown recipients of the magic in the distant past (added by Chiang-ku travelers) the Splugorth have rediscovered. They might get hit like Elves, then again there might be other reasons they aren't as heavily used (success rate, breeding rate, life span, other types of side effects).

Trying to find off shoots of know parties is doable, just seems unlikely given known human variants (do TAs even have variants? I distantly recall something about them having one in PW, but don't feel like looking for it at the moment) tend to be a NO. Would Ogre/Elf variants be any different? (Chiang-ku are Dragons, and other dragons can't assuming all/most dragons are variants of one of their kind so likely no to finding a suitable species here)