OCC Power Level and Experience Point Tables

[Warshield73]

The discussion in the OCCs You Wish Existed thread reminded me of a project i started and kind of let drop a year or so ago. I was attempting to find a way to easily update old OCCs to at least RUE level without too much risk of breaking the OCCs. The way I wanted to do this was use the XP charts. I thought I would find an updated OCC that uses the same XP, look at what had been added to that OCC and then add the same or similar to the older OCC. Simple...right

When I started I figured in Rifts you had the original 15 RUE charts and then maybe another 5 to 10 with most of the charts in the other books being reprints with even if charts in other games like HU, NB and RT being the same or similar but there are over 40 different charts and I didn't even make it through all the WB's. Many charts have extremely minor differences.

So what I want to ask is "does XP chart difficulty increase with the power level of the OCC"?

The reason I asked the poll question is simple, I think the first choice, with hatchling dragon being weakest, is correct but the XP chart has demi-god way down below a lot of mortal OCCs and with hatchling and godling being identical and cosmo knight starting off a little tougher but then matching the other 2 around level 10. Mega-hero from HU is similar where it is a lot tougher than hatchling at the beginning but matching hatchling at level 8.

Thoughts?

[Curbludgeon]

I think Palladium's exp tables are largely there to take up space as Potemkin mechanics. It's vaguely useful in niche cases, like describing how long lived things such as supernatural beings and dragons can both easily plateau and have NPC examples with thousands of years of experience, or show how beings which quickly burn themselves out such as Yaganar and Songjuicers can be unable to arrest their disastrous improvement. At any sort of granularity closer than that, though, it's just random makeemups.

The examples in the poll are interesting in having pretty different potential play experiences. A Cosmo-Knight has a higher floor of potential power than the other three, but a lower ceiling. With the right character class a Demi-God can outshine a Godling. Hatchling Dragons generally keep up with these three, and at adulthood dwarf them. CKs and arguably the god classes can have restrictive codes of conduct. Some people let Godlings have more choice in magical disciplines than shown in RCB2.

I guess at low optimization I'd order them Demi-God\Dragon\Godling\Cosmo-Knight, and at high level Cosmo-Knight\Godling\Dragon\Demi-God

[Marcethus]

Palladium's XP tables are a throwback to the old AD&D days when every class had a different exp progression. I like it though I dislike the seemingly random numbers used exp needed to level. But I have done a similar project that got nowhere as far as yours Warshield, I mostly when I design something new I look at various occ's to find one that is comparable in power and use that XP table. Sometimes I have adjusted an XP Table used (The Reshaper from NB comes to mind there is no way in Dyval that the Reshaper is as powerful as a Nightlord.)

I chose option 3 because the CK is extremely powerful but has strict guidelines as to what they are allowed to do (I GM them, in the extremely rare instance that I even allow a player to play one, much like a Palladin in DnD. The dragon Hatchling has the potential to become the most powerful because of the whole when they get older thing. If the game were to last long enough the dragon hatchling would become an adult then an ancient. But this would have to be in a game with extremely long lived things and there would be lot of downtime involved.

[Warshield73]

The examples in the poll are interesting in having pretty different potential play experiences. A Cosmo-Knight has a higher floor of potential power than the other three, but a lower ceiling. With the right character class a Demi-God can outshine a Godling. Hatchling Dragons generally keep up with these three, and at adulthood dwarf them. CKs and arguably the god classes can have restrictive codes of conduct. Some people let Godlings have more choice in magical disciplines than shown in RCB2.

I guess at low optimization I'd order them Demi-God\Dragon\Godling\Cosmo-Knight, and at high level Cosmo-Knight\Godling\Dragon\Demi-God

I think this is an excellent description of how these RCCs/OCCs work. For me demi-gods and hatchling are basically the same. Dragons are tougher with more abilities but a DG can choose an OCC and can then get magic or psi as the power from DG.

One of my players created a human DG, CAF Fleet Officer OCC, with magic power of a LLW. That is way more powerful than a HD and a Godling can be truly nuts.

Your description has caused me to change my vote and I added a few new poll options that I should have put in to begin with so sorry about needing a new vote.

Palladium's XP tables are a throwback to the old AD&D days when every class had a different exp progression. I like it though I dislike the seemingly random numbers used exp needed to level. But I have done a similar project that got nowhere as far as yours Warshield, I mostly when I design something new I look at various occ's to find one that is comparable in power and use that XP table. Sometimes I have adjusted an XP Table used (The Reshaper from NB comes to mind there is no way in Dyval that the Reshaper is as powerful as a Nightlord.)

I like the XP charts in general I just didn't realize how big a mess they were. In there best form they are a great check on the more powerful OCCs/RCCs. In my original group I had a city-rat, GB, CK and a Dragon. In the beginning the city-rat flew through the early levels while the others plodded along and the dragon practically crawled.

If we ever get a Rifts 2.0 I can say it would be a lot easier to create a set of XP charts from easy to hard and just put every OCC on it. I also like the idea that you might have base chart, but if you add powers/skill programs or certain species your XP difficulty gets increased.

I chose option 3 because the CK is extremely powerful but has strict guidelines as to what they are allowed to do (I GM them, in the extremely rare instance that I even allow a player to play one, much like a Palladin in DnD. The dragon Hatchling has the potential to become the most powerful because of the whole when they get older thing. If the game were to last long enough the dragon hatchling would become an adult then an ancient. But this would have to be in a game with extremely long lived things and there would be lot of downtime involved.

If you are looking at an adult dragon then game over it's the most powerful but I am specifically looking at the playable characters.

[Shorty Lickens]

I try not to think of the game in terms of "MOST POWAHH!" but more like "what kind of adventures can I have with a given character or group? How do I set up a campaign which takes advantage of the party makeup and give them something fun yet challenging to do?"
As we pointed out many times, the system is inherently imbalanced but the idea is the GM makes up something fun no matter what kind of game you decide to play.

[Aermas]

I don't think Cosmo-Knights are that powerful

[Warshield73]

I try not to think of the game in terms of "MOST POWAHH!" but more like "what kind of adventures can I have with a given character or group? How do I set up a campaign which takes advantage of the party makeup and give them something fun yet challenging to do?"
As we pointed out many times, the system is inherently imbalanced but the idea is the GM makes up something fun no matter what kind of game you decide to play.

The problem with that is you can end up with a single character that unbalances the party. In general when I run a campaign I tend to think about does this character fit the campaign but power level does factor in, especially with something like a godling or cosmo-knight.

However, this is mainly about using the XP chart to aid in updating old OCCs. Again I thought this would be a good point of comparison but it really hasn't worked well. I do agree that PB system is purposefully unbalanced, but the XP system often provides what little amount of balance the system has.

I don't think Cosmo-Knights are that powerful

In terms of raw combat there is no class tougher and they have abilities like FTL flight that no others do, but what puts them over the top is their skills. They start as the toughest character in the game but as pointed out earlier they really don't grow that much. I mainly put them on this list, as I stated above, because they use an almost identical XP chart to the hatchling and godling.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

I don't think Cosmo-Knights are that powerful

In terms of raw combat there is no class tougher and they have abilities like FTL flight that no others do, but what puts them over the top is their skills. They start as the toughest character in the game but as pointed out earlier they really don't grow that much. I mainly put them on this list, as I stated above, because they use an almost identical XP chart to the hatchling and godling.

If they just roll a 6 from a 1d6 on their starting PPE, you're looking at 600 PPE. That's more than enough to fully upgrade every ability they have, along with the force field, and still have some PPE left for overcharging their energy blasts. Effective MDC at level 1 would be around 1,000 (500 from armor, 200 from an average 4d6x10 + 60 roll for the body, and 300 from the force field).

There's pretty much no other OCC that could defeat it at level 1. The vulnerability to magic and psionics would only start to matter when its opponents are at least level 5+, and had larger PPE/ISP pools and more varied spells/abilities to attack with. Even then, it's going to take a long time to die.

[Warshield73]

I don't think Cosmo-Knights are that powerful

In terms of raw combat there is no class tougher and they have abilities like FTL flight that no others do, but what puts them over the top is their skills. They start as the toughest character in the game but as pointed out earlier they really don't grow that much. I mainly put them on this list, as I stated above, because they use an almost identical XP chart to the hatchling and godling.

If they just roll a 6 from a 1d6 on their starting PPE, you're looking at 600 PPE. That's more than enough to fully upgrade every ability they have, along with the force field, and still have some PPE left for overcharging their energy blasts. Effective MDC at level 1 would be around 1,000 (500 from armor, 200 from an average 4d6x10 + 60 roll for the body, and 300 from the force field).

There's pretty much no other OCC that could defeat it at level 1. The vulnerability to magic and psionics would only start to matter when its opponents are at least level 5+, and had larger PPE/ISP pools and more varied spells/abilities to attack with. Even then, it's going to take a long time to die.

Exactly. The only reason I now put the godling as more powerful is that they are so much more versatile and they grow in power within the normal range of a player character. I don't know about everyone here but the most advanced I ever saw a group go was from level 1 to level 10 or 11 some 15 years later. Most of my player groups go from level 3 to 6 so an OCC/RCCs abilities in that range are what I look at.

Luckily I have never had a player ask to play a cosmo-knight, which I'm glad they didn't but not because of the raw power, because they are so dreadfully dull. They are all the same, regardless of species. They bring no experience from there earlier life so a 100 year old discovery corp. explorer has all the same skills and starts at the same level 1 as a 16 year old colonist.

Now, I did run a game of just cosmo-knights briefly. I was putting together a PW group and the players were having trouble choosing what to run and one of the players had they idea of doing a brief Seven Samurai type game. It ended up being I think 3 sessions and all the CKs died but I had send them against a near army of royal kreeghor to get it done. Odly enough this group ended up playing my HU/NB combo campaign and that was because the CKs got them in a super hero mood.

[Warshield73]

Like I said in my OP this all started because I am trying to update some old OCCs and just found that the XP system was way more messed up than I thought it was, the discussion of relatives strengths of different OCCs was unintended. For me the power level of an OCC comes in tow forms 1) is the raw physical/destructive power. CKs are in this but so are OCCs like glitter boys. 2) is versatility. How many different things do they have. Magic, psionics, super powers, skills, special equipment? Do they have it all?

I always viewed the XP charts, at least for HU and Rifts, as a form of balance in a game system that has none and even if it isn't perfect that is still how I treat it.

[Marcethus]

Like I said in my OP this all started because I am trying to update some old OCCs and just found that the XP system was way more messed up than I thought it was, the discussion of relatives strengths of different OCCs was unintended. For me the power level of an OCC comes in tow forms 1) is the raw physical/destructive power. CKs are in this but so are OCCs like glitter boys. 2) is versatility. How many different things do they have. Magic, psionics, super powers, skills, special equipment? Do they have it all?

I always viewed the XP charts, at least for HU and Rifts, as a form of balance in a game system that has none and even if it isn't perfect that is still how I treat it.

I fully agree with your view of the XP charts.

If you are looking at an adult dragon then game over it's the most powerful but I am specifically looking at the playable characters.

I was looking at the progression if the game goes long enough in game time.

One of my players created a human DG, CAF Fleet Officer OCC, with magic power of a LLW. That is way more powerful than a HD and a Godling can be truly nuts.

Using a Talus DG mixed a bit with the Mega-Hero I broke the game. I did a Talus Mutant with Extraordinary PP and Healing Factor and one other ability that I can't recall but I think it combined with Healing Factor (Note: All my abilities were from HU2 main book I didn't have any other HU2 books when I built him). DG ability was the LLW Though I tweaked it where he didn't get all spells equal to his level, but he started with his normal OCC spells. The Mega-Hero's boost of superpowers made his regeneration through the roof. The SNPS was nuts but I downgraded it to Superhuman PS because of his OCC. For his OCC I chose Warlock Marine Magic Specialist.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Exactly. The only reason I now put the godling as more powerful is that they are so much more versatile and they grow in power within the normal range of a player character. I don't know about everyone here but the most advanced I ever saw a group go was from level 1 to level 10 or 11 some 15 years later. Most of my player groups go from level 3 to 6 so an OCC/RCCs abilities in that range are what I look at.

For similar reasons, I consider level 8 to be equivalent to endgame. I like to write up experimental character concepts at level 8 to see what they look like at, for all practical purposes, maximum strength.

I've often wondered if it'd be fun to play starting characters at level 15. Presumably it wouldn't be fun for long, after the novelty wears off. But then I started playing with the Ancient Nightbane from the Dark Designs book, and it got me interested in the idea again.

Luckily I have never had a player ask to play a cosmo-knight, which I'm glad they didn't but not because of the raw power, because they are so dreadfully dull. They are all the same, regardless of species. They bring no experience from there earlier life so a 100 year old discovery corp. explorer has all the same skills and starts at the same level 1 as a 16 year old colonist.

Right, and again, this is what I find intriguing about the Ancient Nightbane. You can give it as much as 4 different specializations (1 for each 300 years it's been alive) to explain what it's been doing with its time. You can amass wealth, connections, combat ability, or my favorite, magic or talents (which can be selected twice, with stacking bonuses). The lowest level an Ancient NB can be, is 9.

So, for instance, you could make a roughly 600 year old level 12 Ancient Nightbane Mystic (which, unlike the NB Sorcerer, gets bonuses to spell strength--a huge difference to me) that has, above and beyond its normal bonuses, and after selecting the magic/talent specialization twice, +2 to spell strength, +25% to range/duration of spells/talents, and an extra 6 talents or spells from levels 1-7. 2 spells can be traded for 1 spell from 8-15, or 2 regular talents for 1 elite talent. All 6 spells can be traded for 1 Legendary spell.

The NB Mystic's regular spell progression gives it 20 spells at level 12, along with 6 talents (4 free, 2 purchased, if following the class description to the letter). I feel like choosing extra spells once, and extra talents for the second choice, would offer the best mix. I'd probably get 4 spells from 1-7, trade 2 for an 8-15, and keep all 6 common talents. For a grand total of 25 spells and 12 talents. The beauty of the NB Mystic is that it gets a large PPE pool that it keeps intact, unlike other NB classes that tend to buy more talents with permanent PPE.

Long story short: there's a great deal of both flexibility and RP potential to this concept.

[Warshield73]

One of my players created a human DG, CAF Fleet Officer OCC, with magic power of a LLW. That is way more powerful than a HD and a Godling can be truly nuts.

Using a Talus DG mixed a bit with the Mega-Hero I broke the game. I did a Talus Mutant with Extraordinary PP and Healing Factor and one other ability that I can't recall but I think it combined with Healing Factor (Note: All my abilities were from HU2 main book I didn't have any other HU2 books when I built him). DG ability was the LLW Though I tweaked it where he didn't get all spells equal to his level, but he started with his normal OCC spells. The Mega-Hero's boost of superpowers made his regeneration through the roof. The SNPS was nuts but I downgraded it to Superhuman PS because of his OCC. For his OCC I chose Warlock Marine Magic Specialist.

A Mega Hero is basically a godling. I think it even says so in the description but I don't have a book handy.

Exactly. The only reason I now put the godling as more powerful is that they are so much more versatile and they grow in power within the normal range of a player character. I don't know about everyone here but the most advanced I ever saw a group go was from level 1 to level 10 or 11 some 15 years later. Most of my player groups go from level 3 to 6 so an OCC/RCCs abilities in that range are what I look at.

For similar reasons, I consider level 8 to be equivalent to endgame. I like to write up experimental character concepts at level 8 to see what they look like at, for all practical purposes, maximum strength.

I use to do this with level 9 as in the early books that was often they level that you got your last batch of new skills and really impressive powers. For supernatural creatures I frequently did level 12 and then just nerfed them as antagonists.

I've often wondered if it'd be fun to play starting characters at level 15. Presumably it wouldn't be fun for long, after the novelty wears off. But then I started playing with the Ancient Nightbane from the Dark Designs book, and it got me interested in the idea again.

As with anything it all depends on what you throw at them. For all intents and purposes my original Rifts group basically turned into level 10 godlings by the end of their 20 year run with technology and magic but they loved it because they were taking on truly cosmic threats.

Luckily I have never had a player ask to play a cosmo-knight, which I'm glad they didn't but not because of the raw power, because they are so dreadfully dull. They are all the same, regardless of species. They bring no experience from there earlier life so a 100 year old discovery corp. explorer has all the same skills and starts at the same level 1 as a 16 year old colonist.

Right, and again, this is what I find intriguing about the Ancient Nightbane. You can give it as much as 4 different specializations (1 for each 300 years it's been alive) to explain what it's been doing with its time. You can amass wealth, connections, combat ability, or my favorite, magic or talents (which can be selected twice, with stacking bonuses). The lowest level an Ancient NB can be, is 9.

So, for instance, you could make a roughly 600 year old level 12 Ancient Nightbane Mystic (which, unlike the NB Sorcerer, gets bonuses to spell strength--a huge difference to me) that has, above and beyond its normal bonuses, and after selecting the magic/talent specialization twice, +2 to spell strength, +25% to range/duration of spells/talents, and an extra 6 talents or spells from levels 1-7. 2 spells can be traded for 1 spell from 8-15, or 2 regular talents for 1 elite talent. All 6 spells can be traded for 1 Legendary spell.

The NB Mystic's regular spell progression gives it 20 spells at level 12, along with 6 talents (4 free, 2 purchased, if following the class description to the letter). I feel like choosing extra spells once, and extra talents for the second choice, would offer the best mix. I'd probably get 4 spells from 1-7, trade 2 for an 8-15, and keep all 6 common talents. For a grand total of 25 spells and 12 talents. The beauty of the NB Mystic is that it gets a large PPE pool that it keeps intact, unlike other NB classes that tend to buy more talents with permanent PPE.

Long story short: there's a great deal of both flexibility and RP potential to this concept.

Yes I have looked at the ANB as a template for older beings in the universe, especially adult dragons, but it would be interesting to modify for CKs as well.

I have, on and off, been working on a modification of the CK which keeps its original species, stats, powers, OCC and level and then adds bonuses and some CK powers. CK comes with only a few skills (I think 3) and all powers start at level 1and advance along until CK stuff matches the OCC. The CKs I made from this are more interesting, and a bit more powerful, then standard CKs probably on par with a similar level godling.

[Curbludgeon]

I rather thought Cosmo Knights did keep some amount of their species' specifics. If certain native stats are higher than those in the CK description they're kept, for one. I'd think a Noro CK would have their basic psionics. I don't know where one might cap that sort of thing. Maybe a Silhouette CK wouldn't have spells. The class is denied to supernatural beings, for which they include dragons, so one could exclude a bunch of Creatures of Magic. Optimizing a CK is already a pretty simple task. Grab Boxing and maybe Pilot Starship then whatever, decide to what extent species can affect things, pick an item and ability, and if that ability is force field decide how much to allocate to it.

Ancient Nightbane are a hoot, and would be fun in a high power game alongside things like Rifter 49 vampires, supernatural beings like Demon-Dragonmages, optimized Book of Heroes supers, what have you. Please note that per the errata in Rifter 48 page 24 practitioners of magic who don't have listed increases to spell strength use the gains of a Mystic: +1@ 4. 8. and 12.

[MyDumpStatIsMA]

Please note that per the errata in Rifter 48 page 24 practitioners of magic who don't have listed increases to spell strength use the gains of a Mystic: +1@ 4. 8. and 12.

Ah, I was unaware of that, as I don't own m(any) Rifters. Makes sense though.

Just so we're clear, RUE Mystic gets another +1 to spell strength at level 2 (which is one of the reasons I'm so enamored with the Mystic, as most, if not all, other magic OCCs lag behind them in spell strength until much higher levels).

But I'm assuming that's only for the RUE Mystic and isn't backwards compatible to Nightbane Mystic, Palladium Fantasy Mystic, etc.

[Warshield73]

I rather thought Cosmo Knights did keep some amount of their species' specifics. If certain native stats are higher than those in the CK description they're kept, for one. I'd think a Noro CK would have their basic psionics. I don't know where one might cap that sort of thing. Maybe a Silhouette CK wouldn't have spells. The class is denied to supernatural beings, for which they include dragons, so one could exclude a bunch of Creatures of Magic. Optimizing a CK is already a pretty simple task. Grab Boxing and maybe Pilot Starship then whatever, decide to what extent species can affect things, pick an item and ability, and if that ability is force field decide how much to allocate to it.

You are correct about the attributes, it really doesn't apply to very many species. They say flat out that all skills are wiped away and it says the existing OCC is gone so if your powers come from an OCC they are gone. It also says that the fallen knight can "learn" magic or psionics which makes no sense. Mostly I think this was done to make CKs easier to create but like I said I changed mine to be an add on and I do the same with a fallen knight. Makes them more interesting.

Ancient Nightbane are a hoot, and would be fun in a high power game alongside things like Rifter 49 vampires, supernatural beings like Demon-Dragonmages, optimized Book of Heroes supers, what have you. Please note that per the errata in Rifter 48 page 24 practitioners of magic who don't have listed increases to spell strength use the gains of a Mystic: +1@ 4. 8. and 12.

I am planning a batch of right now 5 but might make it 7 high level mega-heroes, using most of the varinats, I am thinking I might add an AN to it and might use some of the AN ideas to up power them as well.

[Curbludgeon]

I'd be interested in seeing that batch, man. What other sorts of variants are you considering?

CKs should be easy to stat out. They're plug and play mega heroes. They're playing on the narrative space of comic characters like Silver Surfer, Green Lantern, Quasar, and Nova (the fire lady or the space cops, the latter being closest), but really lack any of the abilities to approximate such. The Blahze(sp?) from Skraypers is frankly closer to that.

I'd like to see experience tables have a stronger game mechanical effect. I dismissed them out of hand years ago, so am less than conversant. How many levels ahead can some fast advancing class like City Rat or Vagabond get ahead of a class with a more average progression, like Cyborg or Glitter Boy or whatever? What value is an extra 10% on skills? Something I like in Savage Rifts is codifying equipment as part of character growth. In one of the other current threads I talked about making that sort of thing explicit. Much of a power armor pilot's "power" is in having access to power armor, and that equipment is often a throwaway line in in class descriptions needlessly obfuscates stuff. That arguably helped sell books, where system mastery is more about being aware of references than anything else, but certainly doesn't help new players get their head around things.

[Warshield73]

I'd be interested in seeing that batch, man. What other sorts of variants are you considering?

Wouldn't get too excited. I started creating new HU pregens for conventions years ago and found myself seriously modifying the character creation process, especially where it comes to skills, so I am planning out 4 characters (mutant with super powers, another with super powers and psi, a super soldier, and a wizard - one of these will be an alien) and after they are created I will then save them and then create a mega-hero version of each. I plan to do these with just the HU books, no rifters so that I can test out my modifications. Given my current glacial pace of making my new rifts pre-gens I would say I might have them ready by say October...of 2055.

CKs should be easy to stat out. They're plug and play mega heroes. They're playing on the narrative space of comic characters like Silver Surfer, Green Lantern, Quasar, and Nova (the fire lady or the space cops, the latter being closest), but really lack any of the abilities to approximate such. The Blahze(sp?) from Skraypers is frankly closer to that.

Actually the CK was easy to switch over. I just reduced each attribute by 3D6 (under the assumption that the original stats were made for a human CK) with the remainder being the bonus. PPE is the one place I made a change with mages getting about half of what nonmages got in PPE bonus. Giving mages that much extra PPE was just too over powering. They get no additional skills except for a few additional languages and a superior lore skill for the forge. I don't even increase there HtoH as I like the idea that some are skilled fighters and others aren't.

The inspirations for them are kind of obvious but do keep in mind how OLD this book is.

I'd like to see experience tables have a stronger game mechanical effect. I dismissed them out of hand years ago, so am less than conversant. How many levels ahead can some fast advancing class like City Rat or Vagabond get ahead of a class with a more average progression, like Cyborg or Glitter Boy or whatever? What value is an extra 10% on skills? Something I like in Savage Rifts is codifying equipment as part of character growth. In one of the other current threads I talked about making that sort of thing explicit. Much of a power armor pilot's "power" is in having access to power armor, and that equipment is often a throwaway line in in class descriptions needlessly obfuscates stuff. That arguably helped sell books, where system mastery is more about being aware of references than anything else, but certainly doesn't help new players get their head around things.

Ultimately what I would like to see is a set of universal XP charts, 20 or so, with the first being easy and the last one being for a god or supernatural intelligence. Then each part of character creation adds points to a stat that moves you to higher difficulty XP charts. Run a base human city rat with no psi, your on chart A and you'll hit level 3 by the end of the first adventure. Run a sphinx LLW with 4 exceptional attributes, master psionics and 2 extra skill packages your on chart M and might hit level 3 after the first year or so. If your character gets more powers or skill packages later on then that might move you to a higher chart.

Another option, which I was thinking of for HU but it would work for any game, is to create like 3 to 10 XP charts each representing a power level with points you use to build your character. I like the first idea better because it doesn't make character creation any harder and allows for growth.

[Curbludgeon]

I'm into most of that. Maybe CKs arguably shouldn't have access to spell magic, because breaking that seal can be a whole mess. Maybe limiting it to intuitive casting only would help. And as long as there's a chart for Songjuicers\Yaganar where they're increasingly desperate to not increase in level, and level increase takes into account the variability of all the different nonsense it can increase, I think having a bunch of charts has potential.

[Warshield73]

As I said I haven't had any players ask to run a CK and the group that played CKs for a short time just ran the ones from the book. I did this more for NPCs as CKs were just so vanilla.

That said if I were to ever make this open to PCs I would almost certainly nerf mages and I think it would go without saying that any mage connected to any being is not allowed. The nature of the CK means that someone like a borg for instance would loose all bionics and become fully organic so MaA don't have the same issue but even worse than mages would be super powered people. Still, this system makes them less generic and gives a little more personality.

[Aermas]

How would you account for things that aren't quite levels but still might be a significant boost in ability? Like if a character wanted to learn Diabolist Wards or gain access to Temporal Spells? Would that maybe just coat a flat XP rate, paid at any time it makes sense, but doesn't reflect leveling the OCC itself? Or would that still be something that if your GM says "yeah you put enough downtime into it go ahead & take it"?

[Warshield73]

How would you account for things that aren't quite levels but still might be a significant boost in ability? Like if a character wanted to learn Diabolist Wards or gain access to Temporal Spells? Would that maybe just coat a flat XP rate, paid at any time it makes sense, but doesn't reflect leveling the OCC itself? Or would that still be something that if your GM says "yeah you put enough downtime into it go ahead & take it"?

My first player group had a dragon in it and I let him do a lot of things over the years and some messed up the balance while others didn't make a difference. The worst, most unbalancing thing I did was he got access to a handful of temporal spells and boom off to the races. It was like giving a MaA Giga-Damage weapons. In an updated system like the one I'm thinking about I would treat things like this like any other player adding a new skill package. You have to learn the fundamentals of this type of magic and that new power set comes with a XP modifier that might move you up a chart or two.

Powers are not the problem in this system it is equipment. Why is a GB pilot on a higher XP chart than a merc soldier? Why does the Veritech pilot have a tougher XP chart than cyclone rider? The answer is equipment but I would get away from that and just make the XP chart reflect what the character can do on its own. Its not a perfect system but it can't be worse than what we have.

[Fenris2020]

The XP tables are... well, they are.
I always add a zero or two, to the XP given per encounter and the like.
Why?
Okay, take some 1st level characters (my group did this with MD people... but it matters not), and start a Seven Dangers campaign.
Providing they survive The Mechanoids, their cults, and so on and end this threat, they'll be... 2nd or MAYBE 3rd level using the official XP award chart. After that, they go to Africa and deal with the Four Horsemen and the various protectors, minions and so on that they have. Providing you survive, you'll be... 3rd level, and maybe kinda on the way to 4th.
Now, I've seen some "gimmes" where even SDC character survived either or both of those campaigns, but...
My group started with a Cosmo-Knight, a Night Stalker Hatchling, a Japanese Godling (Zanji was his HtH), a Kremin Combat Borg, a Demi-goddess Air and Fire Warlock (with Earth Warlock powers), a Valkyrie, and a Scorpion Person Cyber-Knight. We all survived The Mechanoids. Barely, in some cases.
Horseman War killed four of us, in three rounds.
Granted, the GM was being stingy with the Gathering of Heroes, so we had NO back-up at all. He didn't want us to have help, so we had no help. He re-thought that after the three survivors said "**** the world, we're going to Phase World." And that's what we did.

[Marcethus]

The XP tables are... well, they are.
I always add a zero or two, to the XP given per encounter and the like.
Why?
Okay, take some 1st level characters (my group did this with MD people... but it matters not), and start a Seven Dangers campaign.
Providing they survive The Mechanoids, their cults, and so on and end this threat, they'll be... 2nd or MAYBE 3rd level using the official XP award chart. After that, they go to Africa and deal with the Four Horsemen and the various protectors, minions and so on that they have. Providing you survive, you'll be... 3rd level, and maybe kinda on the way to 4th.
Now, I've seen some "gimmes" where even SDC character survived either or both of those campaigns, but...
My group started with a Cosmo-Knight, a Night Stalker Hatchling, a Japanese Godling (Zanji was his HtH), a Kremin Combat Borg, a Demi-goddess Air and Fire Warlock (with Earth Warlock powers), a Valkyrie, and a Scorpion Person Cyber-Knight. We all survived The Mechanoids. Barely, in some cases.
Horseman War killed four of us, in three rounds.
Granted, the GM was being stingy with the Gathering of Heroes, so we had NO back-up at all. He didn't want us to have help, so we had no help. He re-thought that after the three survivors said "**** the world, we're going to Phase World." And that's what we did.

I have always used an ad-hoc system for awarding XP in palladium. I dislike their XP awards chart as it has no way to gauge what a threat is to a particular PC party.

[Warshield73]

The XP tables are... well, they are.

To be clear I have no problem with the Award Table, it is the XP charts for the OCCs that I don't think make sense. To me they need to be more aligned to, maybe power is the wrong word maybe complexity is better.

I always add a zero or two, to the XP given per encounter and the like.
Why?
Okay, take some 1st level characters (my group did this with MD people... but it matters not), and start a Seven Dangers campaign.
Providing they survive The Mechanoids, their cults, and so on and end this threat, they'll be... 2nd or MAYBE 3rd level using the official XP award chart. After that, they go to Africa and deal with the Four Horsemen and the various protectors, minions and so on that they have. Providing you survive, you'll be... 3rd level, and maybe kinda on the way to 4th.

The mechanoids are only slightly more difficult than say the CS so if characters are smart they can take them. My players also faced War and truthfully for Monsters like that I created a few more tiers of villains in the XP. The group was entirely SDC, except for the Hatchling and a transferred intelligence robot, and they did fine.

Now, I've seen some "gimmes" where even SDC character survived either or both of those campaigns, but...
My group started with a Cosmo-Knight, a Night Stalker Hatchling, a Japanese Godling (Zanji was his HtH), a Kremin Combat Borg, a Demi-goddess Air and Fire Warlock (with Earth Warlock powers), a Valkyrie, and a Scorpion Person Cyber-Knight. We all survived The Mechanoids. Barely, in some cases.
Horseman War killed four of us, in three rounds.
Granted, the GM was being stingy with the Gathering of Heroes, so we had NO back-up at all. He didn't want us to have help, so we had no help. He re-thought that after the three survivors said "**** the world, we're going to Phase World." And that's what we did.

This is the problem. The major point of these world-shattering meta plots is that the PCs role-play to get others to help them or sign on with others. In our game it was King Arthu that ended leading the Gathering of Heroes. If your characters ended up facing even two of the Four Horsemen on their own then they screwed up or the GM is trying to kill them.

Now, I think it is a good idea that if someone redoes the XP charts that the early levels go up faster.

I have always used an ad-hoc system for awarding XP in palladium. I dislike their XP awards chart as it has no way to gauge what a threat is to a particular PC party.

A lot of this is GM discretion. When my first PC group started a Gargoyle was a low end great menace, by the time they were level 5 they were minor. You also have to be a little reasonable with this too. The first time they faced a Splugorth slaver in his barge it was a great menace and they got full points for it running away since it fleeing without the slaves was close enough to subduing for me but I know some GMs gave no points for this at all which to me was insane.

[Marcethus]

Defeating a threat doesn't always mean killing. So I agree with you that GM's that say that the creature running away is not defeating it is incorrect.

[Warshield73]

Defeating a threat doesn't always mean killing. So I agree with you that GM's that say that the creature running away is not defeating it is incorrect.

To be fair to them it does say "killing or subduing" in the book but defeating would be better.

[Marcethus]

Defeating a threat doesn't always mean killing. So I agree with you that GM's that say that the creature running away is not defeating it is incorrect.

To be fair to them it does say "killing or subduing" in the book but defeating would be better.

Agreed.

[JoshDavis]

Palladium XP tables are derived from the tables of games that came before it, in which different classes had different power curves. I have begun to feel more strongly over the years that Palladium XP tables may have missed the original point and were merely trying to mimic what had come before. I could be wrong. Maybe KS made a big spreadsheet where he weighted the cost of gaining new secondary skills and new OCC Related Skills along with access to new spell levels and new psychic powers.

Here are the "big" power curve changes for a Ley Line Walker:
3: +1 spell strength, +2 OCC skills
4: +1 secondary skill
6: level 6 spells, +1 OCC skill
7: +1 spell strength
8: +1 secondary skill
9: +1 OCC skill
10: +1 spell strength
11: level 11 spells
12: +1 OCC skill, +1 secondary skill
13: +1 spell strength

I would expect to see significant jumps in XP requirements at those levels then. That's not exactly what I see though. (RUE tables)
1-2: +2.2k
2-3: +2.2k
3-4: +4.5k
4-5: +8.5k
5-6: +8.5k
6-7: +10k
7-8: +15k
8-9: +20k
9-10: 25k
10-11: +40k
11-12: +40k
12-13: +40k
13-14: +40k
14-15: +40k

Getting to level 5 is nothing special really. Access to level 5 spells which are generally a bit better than level 4 spells. Enough to require and extra +4k from the previous level? And going from 7-8 gets you a secondary skill so that's worth an extra 5k over the previous level apparently.

What's really interesting is when I put this side-by-side with a class that is basically pure skills: Operator. You'd expect a skill-based class might be a bit more linear at least if the theory is there are jumps in power level.

Here are the "big" power curve changes for an Operator:
3: +2 OCC skills
4: +1 Secondary skill
6: +2 OCC skills
8: +1 Secondary skill
9: +2 OCC skills
12: +2 OCC skills, +1 Secondary skill
14: +1 Secondary skill

So I would expect some jumps at those levels, especially when getting OCC Related skills. Instead, this is what we see:
1-2: +1.9k
2-3: +1.9k
3-4: +4.5k
4-5: +7k
5-6: +7k
6-7: +9k
7-8: +10k
8-9: +13k
9-10: +20k
10-11: +30k
11-12: +35k
12-13: +50k
13-14: +50k
14-15: +40k (is this a typo???)

I don't really know what to make of this. The Operator has a slightly smoother curve, but with major jumps in mostly the same places as the Ley Line Walker and a weird jump to +50k for getting to level 13 where the Operator gets... nothing special at all. Level 13 is the deadest of dead levels for an Operator. My only thought is that KS was looking at the XP tables and thought, "whoops, the Operator is falling way behind the average curve here. I'll add some extra here at the end so that the totals aren't as far off. No one will likely care because hardly anyone gets to level 13 anyway."

And he's probably right if that was his thinking. But I don't see a reason to force the tables to look a certain way at the end if most players will not play a campaign that long.

Now maybe I'm missing something in the formula. I'd be interested to see KS's work just to see what assumptions he was working on. I imagine there was feedback from playtesting, but a lot of it seems really haphazard. It seems as if there was a general assumption (I am guessing baked in from AD&D and similar game influence) that there should be a significant jump in XP cost for levels about once every 2 levels.

What really throws me are the really minor differences though. A CS Grunt needs 25 more XP to get to 2nd level than a CS SAMAS Pilot (who is already better in every way) because... why exactly??? I don't understand why the two even justify having separate tables except to fill page space.

Personally, I only see the need for about four or five different XP Tables.
1) Adventurers & Scholars (plus Merc Soldier): they are all pretty much on the same power curve and defined by skills
2) Enhanced Soldiers: Borgs, Juicers, Crazies, etc. (I'd put Glitter Boy in this category too)
3) Power Armor and Robot Vehicle Pilots: basically anything that pilots a power suit or mech and isn't a glitter boy
4) Magic and Psychic Classes: they all have game-altering abilities which change the way you play the game but are squishy at heart
5) Dragon Hatchling: obvs

[Fenris2020]

The XP tables are... well, they are.

To be clear I have no problem with the Award Table, it is the XP charts for the OCCs that I don't think make sense. To me they need to be more aligned to, maybe power is the wrong word maybe complexity is better.

I always add a zero or two, to the XP given per encounter and the like.
Why?
Okay, take some 1st level characters (my group did this with MD people... but it matters not), and start a Seven Dangers campaign.
Providing they survive The Mechanoids, their cults, and so on and end this threat, they'll be... 2nd or MAYBE 3rd level using the official XP award chart. After that, they go to Africa and deal with the Four Horsemen and the various protectors, minions and so on that they have. Providing you survive, you'll be... 3rd level, and maybe kinda on the way to 4th.

The mechanoids are only slightly more difficult than say the CS so if characters are smart they can take them. My players also faced War and truthfully for Monsters like that I created a few more tiers of villains in the XP. The group was entirely SDC, except for the Hatchling and a transferred intelligence robot, and they did fine.

Now, I've seen some "gimmes" where even SDC character survived either or both of those campaigns, but...
My group started with a Cosmo-Knight, a Night Stalker Hatchling, a Japanese Godling (Zanji was his HtH), a Kremin Combat Borg, a Demi-goddess Air and Fire Warlock (with Earth Warlock powers), a Valkyrie, and a Scorpion Person Cyber-Knight. We all survived The Mechanoids. Barely, in some cases.
Horseman War killed four of us, in three rounds.
Granted, the GM was being stingy with the Gathering of Heroes, so we had NO back-up at all. He didn't want us to have help, so we had no help. He re-thought that after the three survivors said "**** the world, we're going to Phase World." And that's what we did.

This is the problem. The major point of these world-shattering meta plots is that the PCs role-play to get others to help them or sign on with others. In our game it was King Arthu that ended leading the Gathering of Heroes. If your characters ended up facing even two of the Four Horsemen on their own then they screwed up or the GM is trying to kill them.

Now, I think it is a good idea that if someone redoes the XP charts that the early levels go up faster.

I have always used an ad-hoc system for awarding XP in palladium. I dislike their XP awards chart as it has no way to gauge what a threat is to a particular PC party.

A lot of this is GM discretion. When my first PC group started a Gargoyle was a low end great menace, by the time they were level 5 they were minor. You also have to be a little reasonable with this too. The first time they faced a Splugorth slaver in his barge it was a great menace and they got full points for it running away since it fleeing without the slaves was close enough to subduing for me but I know some GMs gave no points for this at all which to me was insane.

Your SDC people did fine against Horseman War. Interesting.
The only times I've heard/ read that turned up being a greatly reduced War and/ or with a LOT of help. Gimme games, or the GMs allowed them to have assistance from the Gathering (which our characters didn't even know about; we just went there due to the Nightstalker's unusually specific Clairvoyant vision).
I think our GM didn't fully take into account War's abilities, as well as the help he was getting from the New Phoenix Empire. We hit War when he was by himself due to some misdirection my Cosmo-Knight and the Hatchling did on the NPE minions. But still, what happened, happened.
The Mechanoids weren't just like a squad of CS troops. There were a few hundred. Plus, like I said, the various cults. Playing smart only goes so far.

[Marcethus]

Palladium XP tables are derived from the tables of games that came before it, in which different classes had different power curves. I have begun to feel more strongly over the years that Palladium XP tables may have missed the original point and were merely trying to mimic what had come before. I could be wrong. Maybe KS made a big spreadsheet where he weighted the cost of gaining new secondary skills and new OCC Related Skills along with access to new spell levels and new psychic powers.

Here are the "big" power curve changes for a Ley Line Walker:
3: +1 spell strength, +2 OCC skills
4: +1 secondary skill
6: level 6 spells, +1 OCC skill
7: +1 spell strength
8: +1 secondary skill
9: +1 OCC skill
10: +1 spell strength
11: level 11 spells
12: +1 OCC skill, +1 secondary skill
13: +1 spell strength

I would expect to see significant jumps in XP requirements at those levels then. That's not exactly what I see though. (RUE tables)
1-2: +2.2k
2-3: +2.2k
3-4: +4.5k
4-5: +8.5k
5-6: +8.5k
6-7: +10k
7-8: +15k
8-9: +20k
9-10: 25k
10-11: +40k
11-12: +40k
12-13: +40k
13-14: +40k
14-15: +40k

Getting to level 5 is nothing special really. Access to level 5 spells which are generally a bit better than level 4 spells. Enough to require and extra +4k from the previous level? And going from 7-8 gets you a secondary skill so that's worth an extra 5k over the previous level apparently.

What's really interesting is when I put this side-by-side with a class that is basically pure skills: Operator. You'd expect a skill-based class might be a bit more linear at least if the theory is there are jumps in power level.

Here are the "big" power curve changes for an Operator:
3: +2 OCC skills
4: +1 Secondary skill
6: +2 OCC skills
8: +1 Secondary skill
9: +2 OCC skills
12: +2 OCC skills, +1 Secondary skill
14: +1 Secondary skill

So I would expect some jumps at those levels, especially when getting OCC Related skills. Instead, this is what we see:
1-2: +1.9k
2-3: +1.9k
3-4: +4.5k
4-5: +7k
5-6: +7k
6-7: +9k
7-8: +10k
8-9: +13k
9-10: +20k
10-11: +30k
11-12: +35k
12-13: +50k
13-14: +50k
14-15: +40k (is this a typo???)

I don't really know what to make of this. The Operator has a slightly smoother curve, but with major jumps in mostly the same places as the Ley Line Walker and a weird jump to +50k for getting to level 13 where the Operator gets... nothing special at all. Level 13 is the deadest of dead levels for an Operator. My only thought is that KS was looking at the XP tables and thought, "whoops, the Operator is falling way behind the average curve here. I'll add some extra here at the end so that the totals aren't as far off. No one will likely care because hardly anyone gets to level 13 anyway."

And he's probably right if that was his thinking. But I don't see a reason to force the tables to look a certain way at the end if most players will not play a campaign that long.

Now maybe I'm missing something in the formula. I'd be interested to see KS's work just to see what assumptions he was working on. I imagine there was feedback from playtesting, but a lot of it seems really haphazard. It seems as if there was a general assumption (I am guessing baked in from AD&D and similar game influence) that there should be a significant jump in XP cost for levels about once every 2 levels.

What really throws me are the really minor differences though. A CS Grunt needs 25 more XP to get to 2nd level than a CS SAMAS Pilot (who is already better in every way) because... why exactly??? I don't understand why the two even justify having separate tables except to fill page space.

Personally, I only see the need for about four or five different XP Tables.
1) Adventurers & Scholars (plus Merc Soldier): they are all pretty much on the same power curve and defined by skills
2) Enhanced Soldiers: Borgs, Juicers, Crazies, etc. (I'd put Glitter Boy in this category too)
3) Power Armor and Robot Vehicle Pilots: basically anything that pilots a power suit or mech and isn't a glitter boy
4) Magic and Psychic Classes: they all have game-altering abilities which change the way you play the game but are squishy at heart
5) Dragon Hatchling: obvs

IIRC in the Original RMB I don't think that any of the OCC's got secondary skills at later levels. That was something that was added in later, then updated in the RUE. Older OCC's don't have increased secondary skills at later levels.

[JoshDavis]

IIRC in the Original RMB I don't think that any of the OCC's got secondary skills at later levels. That was something that was added in later, then updated in the RUE. Older OCC's don't have increased secondary skills at later levels.

You are correct, in most cases. But the 'Borg and the Adventurers and Scholars DID get extra secondary skills in the original Main Book. However, I was referencing the RUE OCCs and experience tables.

[Warshield73]

Your SDC people did fine against Horseman War. Interesting.
The only times I've heard/ read that turned up being a greatly reduced War and/ or with a LOT of help. Gimme games, or the GMs allowed them to have assistance from the Gathering (which our characters didn't even know about; we just went there due to the Nightstalker's unusually specific Clairvoyant vision).

I explained this, in some details.

I always add a zero or two, to the XP given per encounter and the like.
Why?
Okay, take some 1st level characters (my group did this with MD people... but it matters not), and start a Seven Dangers campaign.
Providing they survive The Mechanoids, their cults, and so on and end this threat, they'll be... 2nd or MAYBE 3rd level using the official XP award chart. After that, they go to Africa and deal with the Four Horsemen and the various protectors, minions and so on that they have. Providing you survive, you'll be... 3rd level, and maybe kinda on the way to 4th.

The mechanoids are only slightly more difficult than say the CS so if characters are smart they can take them. My players also faced War and truthfully for Monsters like that I created a few more tiers of villains in the XP. The group was entirely SDC, except for the Hatchling and a transferred intelligence robot, and they did fine.

Now, I've seen some "gimmes" where even SDC character survived either or both of those campaigns, but...
My group started with a Cosmo-Knight, a Night Stalker Hatchling, a Japanese Godling (Zanji was his HtH), a Kremin Combat Borg, a Demi-goddess Air and Fire Warlock (with Earth Warlock powers), a Valkyrie, and a Scorpion Person Cyber-Knight. We all survived The Mechanoids. Barely, in some cases.
Horseman War killed four of us, in three rounds.
Granted, the GM was being stingy with the Gathering of Heroes, so we had NO back-up at all. He didn't want us to have help, so we had no help. He re-thought that after the three survivors said "**** the world, we're going to Phase World." And that's what we did.

This is the problem. The major point of these world-shattering meta plots is that the PCs role-play to get others to help them or sign on with others. In our game it was King Arthu that ended leading the Gathering of Heroes. If your characters ended up facing even two of the Four Horsemen on their own then they screwed up or the GM is trying to kill them.

See. Here's more. Now to be clear among the SDC people they had a GB, a LLW, CK in power armor and a Head Hunter which since this was in the RMB days was a robot vehicle pilot. Then add the transferred intelligence robot and the hatchling dragon. Now they had good gear, including stuff from other PB games, but nothing stupendous. No Synchro cannons or anyting.

This was difficult but not the toughest fight they had. First, they got allies. This is not a "gimme game" or any nonsense like that it is the point of the entire meta plot. All the heroes of the world, or at least those that exist when WB 4 came out, rallying together to save the world.

The players used their brains, and they planned it out.

First the gathering of heroes found 2 of the Horsemen, I forget who the other was but one was War. The other was too well guarded and by the Pharoh to attack so the PCs and a few allies, mostly support personnel for repair and reload but some muscle, to destroy War.

Then tracked him, did a few feigning attacks to draw out his protectors and then killed them. Then they attacked War, not to kill or injure him but to kill his nether beast. I can't remember but I believe this took a few tries as these attacks they were unwilling to sacrifice any gear or heavy munitions.

After this they waited until War was in a place that was...not ideal good enough and attacked. They used tactics, range advantage and the aid of the allies, which again is the entire point of the plot as presented, to kill him. It was long and put two of their most powerful vehicles completely out of commission, but they got him.

Defeating the remaining 3 who made it to the Pharoh's pyramid was longer, bloodier, and saw lots of allies die and several pieces of PC equipment lost and in the end the PCs weren't the one who killed all of the four, I think they did the finishing shot on Pestilence or Famine and they killed the Pharoh, but Death was killed by Arthu as part of the GoH and to us that was what the plot as presented was about.

Now, if you are talking about having a group of PCs that can smash everything on their own with minimal effort then a bunch of godlings with 100 XP per level advancement might work.

I think our GM didn't fully take into account War's abilities, as well as the help he was getting from the New Phoenix Empire. We hit War when he was by himself due to some misdirection my Cosmo-Knight and the Hatchling did on the NPE minions. But still, what happened, happened.
The Mechanoids weren't just like a squad of CS troops. There were a few hundred. Plus, like I said, the various cults. Playing smart only goes so far.

As for the Mechanoids, if you attack all of them head on then you will die. Again roleplaying to get allies was key and waiting until they split up. If a GM drops an entire Death's Head worth of CS on your PC group they will die too. Tactics and waiting for the right moment, working with allies that is how you kill the cults as well as the Mechanoids themselves. Roleplaying, not just combat. Cap can't beat Thanos all by himself thats why we all love to see those portals open.

[Fenris2020]

Your SDC people did fine against Horseman War. Interesting.
The only times I've heard/ read that turned up being a greatly reduced War and/ or with a LOT of help. Gimme games, or the GMs allowed them to have assistance from the Gathering (which our characters didn't even know about; we just went there due to the Nightstalker's unusually specific Clairvoyant vision).

I explained this, in some details.

I always add a zero or two, to the XP given per encounter and the like.
Why?
Okay, take some 1st level characters (my group did this with MD people... but it matters not), and start a Seven Dangers campaign.
Providing they survive The Mechanoids, their cults, and so on and end this threat, they'll be... 2nd or MAYBE 3rd level using the official XP award chart. After that, they go to Africa and deal with the Four Horsemen and the various protectors, minions and so on that they have. Providing you survive, you'll be... 3rd level, and maybe kinda on the way to 4th.

The mechanoids are only slightly more difficult than say the CS so if characters are smart they can take them. My players also faced War and truthfully for Monsters like that I created a few more tiers of villains in the XP. The group was entirely SDC, except for the Hatchling and a transferred intelligence robot, and they did fine.

Now, I've seen some "gimmes" where even SDC character survived either or both of those campaigns, but...
My group started with a Cosmo-Knight, a Night Stalker Hatchling, a Japanese Godling (Zanji was his HtH), a Kremin Combat Borg, a Demi-goddess Air and Fire Warlock (with Earth Warlock powers), a Valkyrie, and a Scorpion Person Cyber-Knight. We all survived The Mechanoids. Barely, in some cases.
Horseman War killed four of us, in three rounds.
Granted, the GM was being stingy with the Gathering of Heroes, so we had NO back-up at all. He didn't want us to have help, so we had no help. He re-thought that after the three survivors said "**** the world, we're going to Phase World." And that's what we did.

This is the problem. The major point of these world-shattering meta plots is that the PCs role-play to get others to help them or sign on with others. In our game it was King Arthu that ended leading the Gathering of Heroes. If your characters ended up facing even two of the Four Horsemen on their own then they screwed up or the GM is trying to kill them.

See. Here's more. Now to be clear among the SDC people they had a GB, a LLW, CK in power armor and a Head Hunter which since this was in the RMB days was a robot vehicle pilot. Then add the transferred intelligence robot and the hatchling dragon. Now they had good gear, including stuff from other PB games, but nothing stupendous. No Synchro cannons or anyting.

This was difficult but not the toughest fight they had. First, they got allies. This is not a "gimme game" or any nonsense like that it is the point of the entire meta plot. All the heroes of the world, or at least those that exist when WB 4 came out, rallying together to save the world.

The players used their brains, and they planned it out.

First the gathering of heroes found 2 of the Horsemen, I forget who the other was but one was War. The other was too well guarded and by the Pharoh to attack so the PCs and a few allies, mostly support personnel for repair and reload but some muscle, to destroy War.

Then tracked him, did a few feigning attacks to draw out his protectors and then killed them. Then they attacked War, not to kill or injure him but to kill his nether beast. I can't remember but I believe this took a few tries as these attacks they were unwilling to sacrifice any gear or heavy munitions.

After this they waited until War was in a place that was...not ideal good enough and attacked. They used tactics, range advantage and the aid of the allies, which again is the entire point of the plot as presented, to kill him. It was long and put two of their most powerful vehicles completely out of commission, but they got him.

Defeating the remaining 3 who made it to the Pharoh's pyramid was longer, bloodier, and saw lots of allies die and several pieces of PC equipment lost and in the end the PCs weren't the one who killed all of the four, I think they did the finishing shot on Pestilence or Famine and they killed the Pharoh, but Death was killed by Arthu as part of the GoH and to us that was what the plot as presented was about.

Now, if you are talking about having a group of PCs that can smash everything on their own with minimal effort then a bunch of godlings with 100 XP per level advancement might work.

I think our GM didn't fully take into account War's abilities, as well as the help he was getting from the New Phoenix Empire. We hit War when he was by himself due to some misdirection my Cosmo-Knight and the Hatchling did on the NPE minions. But still, what happened, happened.
The Mechanoids weren't just like a squad of CS troops. There were a few hundred. Plus, like I said, the various cults. Playing smart only goes so far.

As for the Mechanoids, if you attack all of them head on then you will die. Again roleplaying to get allies was key and waiting until they split up. If a GM drops an entire Death's Head worth of CS on your PC group they will die too. Tactics and waiting for the right moment, working with allies that is how you kill the cults as well as the Mechanoids themselves. Roleplaying, not just combat. Cap can't beat Thanos all by himself thats why we all love to see those portals open.

Yes, yes, role-playing allies.
The only ones we logically had to work with were Hagan and the AbMechanoids (which we found a home for at the end, before going to Africa). I realize some people have used the CS as allies, but every PC in the group was a "kill on sight", so... And I didn't say we attacked them head-on. We were using marionette ambushes on scouting forces, used the Scorpion Person Cyber-Knight as a spy, and the like. But there were a LOT of them, it took a month of game-time two nights a week, and some characters weren't as powerful as others.
And again, our character didn't even know about the Gathering, and even had we, it should always be the Player Characters who take the lead or at least play the larger role in leading any forces against the enemy; not some NPC. Other-wise, what's the point in playing one of the meta-plot campaigns?
IF the Africa thing had worked out better (the GM apologized for his treatment of the group... too little too late), we would have gone back to NA for the Juicer Uprising, then probably worked with Lazlo against the Xiticix; we'd have avoided the Tolkeen mess entirely, or had a more logical campaign than what was written.
As far as the portals... kind of. But there were portions of that whole thing that most of us saw as a hot mess of pandering. Particularly the Captain Marvel super-duper stuff.

But back on topic... that group we had, after the Juicer Uprising, might have been 5th level. After fighting Xiticix for however long, 6th level? Kinda ridiculous, considering numbers and power-level of the foes, the skills used in order to succeed, and so on. Then you look at the various high-level NPCs, who haven't faced anything like what the PCs would have.
That's why I add a zero or two to each of the categories which you award XP from.

[Marcethus]

IIRC in the Original RMB I don't think that any of the OCC's got secondary skills at later levels. That was something that was added in later, then updated in the RUE. Older OCC's don't have increased secondary skills at later levels.

You are correct, in most cases. But the 'Borg and the Adventurers and Scholars DID get extra secondary skills in the original Main Book. However, I was referencing the RUE OCCs and experience tables.

Tis been too many years since I looked at an RMB. Its high on my list of reacquires.

[desrocfc]

I always viewed the XP charts, at least for HU and Rifts, as a form of balance in a game system that has none and even if it isn't perfect that is still how I treat it.

While XP markers are an element of the problem, it is more so that the structure of Classes needs to be completely amended and updated. I won't comment on the poll itself, because I prefer to play and GM more gritty, low-fantasy style games.

Comparison of the actual Glitter Boy OCC to anything other than a CS Grunt will skew your results. CS Grunts have access to Robots that put them on/near par with GB Pilots in terms of offensive firepower output. As an OCC though, the GB Pilot is lacklustre, weak. Only because of the GB does it change the dynamic, and that can be countered by the GM not playing monsters and opponents like "Red Shirts." They lose their GB suit/effectively countered, the GB Pilot are on par with a CS Grunt. Nothing special and quite unremarkable. Looking at the XP Tables for Grunt and GB; it's already implied.

[Warshield73]

I always viewed the XP charts, at least for HU and Rifts, as a form of balance in a game system that has none and even if it isn't perfect that is still how I treat it.

While XP markers are an element of the problem, it is more so that the structure of Classes needs to be completely amended and updated.

I agree, however what I am saying is that in a system that does not try to balance its classes, and I like that aspect of it, can and maybe should use the XP chart to bring a certain kind of balance.

I won't comment on the poll itself, because I prefer to play and GM more gritty, low-fantasy style games.

The poll is kind of meaningless at this point. It was really just a way to spark a conversation. I really don't like the idea of ranking them by power, I would prefer to say versatility or complexity.

Comparison of the actual Glitter Boy OCC to anything other than a CS Grunt will skew your results. CS Grunts have access to Robots that put them on/near par with GB Pilots in terms of offensive firepower output. As an OCC though, the GB Pilot is lacklustre, weak. Only because of the GB does it change the dynamic, and that can be countered by the GM not playing monsters and opponents like "Red Shirts." They lose their GB suit/effectively countered, the GB Pilot are on par with a CS Grunt. Nothing special and quite unremarkable. Looking at the XP Tables for Grunt and GB; it's already implied.

While I agree that the GB is just a basic MaA without the GB itself it has several advantages:

1-OCC bonuses if a descended GB pilot which everyone plays.
2-The GB has a few extra OCC skills including languages, even when you account for the Grunt having HtH Expert, plus starting at level 3 the GB gets one more Other skill and maintains that advantage to the end.
3-The GB pilot is less skill restricted than the grunt in Medical, being able to take paramedic, but it is Espionage and Science where the GB has the added skill opportunities. The only place the grunt has an advantage is Military where it has any and the GB is limited to 5 of the better ones and in those skills it gets better bonuses.
4-Should go without saying it but the GB starts with one of the better vehicles in the game while the Grunt does not. If you are playing a CS campaign you get what is assigned but in any other campaign it really is up to the GM and it is very unlikely that they would start with PA or RV.
5-Finally in game the GB has a certain amount of prestige with common people that other OCCs, except maybe the cyber knight, don't have to the point that people will help them in ways they wouldn't help others.