any point to a Nightbane Sorcerer taking Killing Spree talent?

[Plane]

Nightbane page 68 "the P.P.E. of all creatures doubles at the moment of death and a sorcerer can capture and use that energy when it is unleashed"

Dark Designs page 75 "While Killing Spree is active, half of the remaining P.P.E. of any being killed by the Talent user is stolen and temporarily added to his or her own for the duration of this Talent. The stolen P.P.E. is immediately available to fuel Talents, spells, etc"

It seems like on face value that the point of this might be to allow non-Sorcerer NB to harvest PPE from kills, but the innate ability of sorcerers to harvest 200% of PPE (permanently?) for free (no PPE cost, permanent or temporary?) just seems a lot more efficient and overall better.

Maybe I'm missing some kind of subtle advantage here? Like in terms of quantity you can absorb? I don't think Nightbane really talks about PPE caps for blood sacrifices. Is it possible this is limited to magic rituals and can't be used for fast-cast spells or talents?

Rifts and NB seem to derive magic rules from BTS which is similarly kinda vague about this.

[Marcethus]

Since I don't have Dark Designs I can't read the full power. But It sounds like the talent does it automatically. Where as a Nightbane Sorcerer has to use their action to capture the full PPE released at death. IIRC.

[Plane]

yeah if it took a melee action to 'suck it in' that would at least balance it out a bit I think

[Marcethus]

I don't have access to my books so I can't confirm that drawing in the PPE at the moment of death takes an action or not. But I recall that it does. It may just be the case of that's just how my GM's ran it but I thought that it was written under the same section that mentions the doubling of PPE at death. Could be misremembering though. I will have to look it up when I have access to my books.

[Prysus]

Nightbane page 68 "the P.P.E. of all creatures doubles at the moment of death and a sorcerer can capture and use that energy when it is unleashed"

Dark Designs page 75 "While Killing Spree is active, half of the remaining P.P.E. of any being killed by the Talent user is stolen and temporarily added to his or her own for the duration of this Talent. The stolen P.P.E. is immediately available to fuel Talents, spells, etc"

It seems like on face value that the point of this might be to allow non-Sorcerer NB to harvest PPE from kills, but the innate ability of sorcerers to harvest 200% of PPE (permanently?) for free (no PPE cost, permanent or temporary?) just seems a lot more efficient and overall better.

Maybe I'm missing some kind of subtle advantage here? Like in terms of quantity you can absorb? I don't think Nightbane really talks about PPE caps for blood sacrifices. Is it possible this is limited to magic rituals and can't be used for fast-cast spells or talents?

Rifts and NB seem to derive magic rules from BTS which is similarly kinda vague about this.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, I'll start with first commenting that in the Nightbane main book on page 68, the proceeding sentence states: "... may sacrifice an animal to get its potential psychic energy."

The doubling of P.P.E. in general (at least in my experience) is regarding sacrifices, which indicates an either willing or restrained victim, and you can control the moment of death with reasonable precision.

I will add an additional quote from Rifts Book of Mage, page 20 (since the quote is Rifts, you can decide on how much validity you want to place on this rule in the Nightbane setting).

Are there any special rules for absorbing the P.P.E. from the dying (when P.P.E. is doubled) or while in combat?

In most cases a sorcerer can not draw on this P.P.E. unless he is prepared for the release of P.P.E. beforehand, such as during a blood sacrifice or being present at the moment of death and waiting for it to syphon the P.P.E. when the individual passes away (i.e. dies in the mage's arms, or the mage is the character's deathbed or within eyeshort of no more than 20 feet/6m away, and again waiting for it). During combat, the sorcerer is generally unprepared and can not draw on the P.P.E. of a sudden death or even an opponent slain in hand to hand combat. In the latter case, he can draw on the P.P.E. if he is the one who delivers the death blow and he knew as he struck that it would be a killing blow (most often one does not know). Otherwise, the P.P.E. released at the moment of death dissipates before the mage can use it.

Whether or not you feel this rule is fitting for Nightbane, it's reasonable (in my opinion) that the author of Dark Designs wrote the ability with this rule in mind.

Since it would be nearly impossible to realize exactly which blow will be the killing blow in the midst of combat (unless your allies are restraining the foe and you're moving in for the killing blow, or the opponent is already more or less dead and the fact they're still standing is more of a technicality than anything), this ability would be useful. At the very least, it would be beneficial to remove any confusion over how one would be able to know exactly which attack will be the killing the blow.

Note: Nightbane is not my main setting (I enjoy it, my favorite has always been Palladium Fantasy with my following Rifts rules more due to its popularity than my actually caring about the setting), so if there's something in the Nightbane setting that contradicts this rule then that could, of course, change things. Though it's also quite possible the author of Dark Designs still wrote the ability with the Rifts rule in mind (because that happens a lot).

Hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.

[Grazzik]

Greetings and Salutations. ...

I'd agree with Prysus and add that, as per Rifts Book of Magic pg 21, a mage can only hold the excess PPE for their PE attribute in minutes before it dissipates. This talent has a strange layering of durations ... as short as a single melee round if the NB does not succumb to the frenzy, or 20mins while in a frenzy, or much much longer as long as there is a kill within 20mins of the last one. This means there is a distinct advantage as the PPE doesn't dissipate after a few minutes and could accumulate over an extended period.

Also, the same reference points out that normal absorption has a limit, while this talent seems boundless while in a frenzy. This could be a means to getting enough PPE for those really PPE expensive spells of legend...

So, yeah, there might be reasons for a mage to have this talent, but as the talent notes alignments need to be considered. I'd suggest that there would be either a) some severe alignment degradation over time or b) a need to do a ME check against deep guilt or an Insanity saving roll after each use.

[Marcethus]

I agree with Prysus, in that the usually the drawing of PPE at the moment of death is not possible during combat. It is too unpredictable to do. So There would be a reason for Killing Spree, though I am not familiar with Dark Designs as of yet so I can't comment to hard on it's usefulness. I will say that I fully agree with his using of the rules from the BoM and other Rifts sources for adding to the NB information. I do much the same with my games. I think that much of the info is also in BtS2.

[Plane]

The doubling of P.P.E. in general (at least in my experience) is regarding sacrifices, which indicates an either willing or restrained victim, and you can control the moment of death with reasonable precision.

I will add an additional quote from Rifts Book of Mage, page 20 (since the quote is Rifts, you can decide on how much validity you want to place on this rule in the Nightbane setting).

Are there any special rules for absorbing the P.P.E. from the dying (when P.P.E. is doubled) or while in combat?

In most cases a sorcerer can not draw on this P.P.E. unless he is prepared for the release of P.P.E. beforehand, such as during a blood sacrifice or being present at the moment of death and waiting for it to syphon the P.P.E. when the individual passes away (i.e. dies in the mage's arms, or the mage is the character's deathbed or within eyeshort of no more than 20 feet/6m away, and again waiting for it). During combat, the sorcerer is generally unprepared and can not draw on the P.P.E. of a sudden death or even an opponent slain in hand to hand combat. In the latter case, he can draw on the P.P.E. if he is the one who delivers the death blow and he knew as he struck that it would be a killing blow (most often one does not know). Otherwise, the P.P.E. released at the moment of death dissipates before the mage can use it.

Whether or not you feel this rule is fitting for Nightbane, it's reasonable (in my opinion) that the author of Dark Designs wrote the ability with this rule in mind.

Since it would be nearly impossible to realize exactly which blow will be the killing blow in the midst of combat (unless your allies are restraining the foe and you're moving in for the killing blow, or the opponent is already more or less dead and the fact they're still standing is more of a technicality than anything), this ability would be useful.

One odd thing about this rule - what exactly happens if someone makes the attempt to absorb doubled PPE at the moment of death but is unable to do it even though they had a reasonable expectation?

Like for example - I have a vibro blade to the naked neck of what I think is a simple human who I think I can decapitate with the flick of my wrist - but it turns out to be Werewolf (or Vampire, or Invulnerable superhero) who is completely immune to the weapon and they take no damage at all?

Unless there's some actual investment in the absorb-attempt (maybe something like paying 1 PPE per attempt to absorb a sacrifice?) I'm not seeing any downside to false-positive starts like this.

[Grazzik]

In the example you gave, the mage was in combat and focused on getting the vibroknife to the neck of the opponent... not on physically and mentally preparing to take in PPE.

Like distracted driving, theoretically one can do two things at once (driving and texting) but the likelihood of making a mistake in either is high... and the consequences may be dire. Same here, assuming the GM even allows it given the circumstances, if the mage had not had serious penalties applied to their combat as a result of preparing for the kill, then they weren't getting ready for the final blow and the ensuing PPE. In fact, if playing RAW, the rules are even more prohibitive... see RUE pg 189-190 re magic combat. If in a direct melee fight, you just can't do both fighting and magic. You need the opportunity to step back and focus for magic.

I'd argue that this wouldn't apply to PPE vampires like psistalkers as it is a natural reaction not requiring conscious mental effort. But mages are not natural born PPE vampires.

The investment you mention is the need to not be in direct combat in order to prepare.

[Marcethus]

IIRC it doesn't apply to the Psi-Stalker because they have to cut the target they wish to feed on.

[Grazzik]

IIRC it doesn't apply to the Psi-Stalker because they have to cut the target they wish to feed on.

Yes, that is correct, Marcethus. At least cut, but they don't have to stop there.

I've rationalized it as the act of cutting and the prep required to ingest the PPE is part of the Psistalker's nature. The avg mage would not be that attuned. Others may have different reasons.

[Marcethus]

IIRC it doesn't apply to the Psi-Stalker because they have to cut the target they wish to feed on.

Yes, that is correct, Marcethus. At least cut, but they don't have to stop there.

I've rationalized it as the act of cutting and the prep required to ingest the PPE is part of the Psistalker's nature. The avg mage would not be that attuned. Others may have different reasons.

Most Psi-Stalkers won't stop there but in the instance of feeding off of a willing ally. I agree that the average mage would not be ready to draw the PPE in combat. My ruling on the exact reason is that the focus needed draw the PPE requires a calmness that is nearly impossible to find in combat.

[Plane]

In the example you gave, the mage was in combat and focused on getting the vibroknife to the neck of the opponent... not on physically and mentally preparing to take in PPE.

In the example I'm giving the schrodinger's werewolf/vampire is tied up in the usual ritual sacrifice fashion - unmoving target, the ritualist holding the knife isn't exposed to other threats, etc.

The investment you mention is the need to not be in direct combat in order to prepare.

The dividing line should probably be represented somehow statistically, just not sure how...

Maybe like "the attack must be so slow that it is +10 to parry or dodge" so that it's implied a target must be unconscious or totally restrained to not create a complication in diverting the attack.

But what exactly is the downside to such a telegraphed attack being diverted? What is lost?

[Marcethus]

In the example you gave, the mage was in combat and focused on getting the vibroknife to the neck of the opponent... not on physically and mentally preparing to take in PPE.

In the example I'm giving the schrodinger's werewolf/vampire is tied up in the usual ritual sacrifice fashion - unmoving target, the ritualist holding the knife isn't exposed to other threats, etc.

The investment you mention is the need to not be in direct combat in order to prepare.

The dividing line should probably be represented somehow statistically, just not sure how...

Maybe like "the attack must be so slow that it is +10 to parry or dodge" so that it's implied a target must be unconscious or totally restrained to not create a complication in diverting the attack.

But what exactly is the downside to such a telegraphed attack being diverted? What is lost?

They have that rule. It's called GM adjudication. If I had a player that had a target in the situation that you use in your example: If it truly was a non-vamp/were it would have been a Death Blow. Now if it was a silver weapon in the case of a were creature it would be death blow. Vamp not so much. They don't really care about getting their throat slit.