Are Mystics limited to only learning Invocations?

[darthauthor]

Is the Mystic OCC limited to only invocations spells at 1st level and every level after?

[Mack]

In short: yes.

[Library Ogre]

Is the Mystic OCC limited to only invocations spells at 1st level and every level after?

Do you mean invocations as opposed to rituals, or invocations as opposed to other specific kinds of magic (e.g. Warlock spells, Russian Nature Magic, etc.)?

Rules as written, I believe they are limited to "invocations" as in "magic available to wizards", but I allow them to cast those as rituals, if they like (and if it's worth their time).

However, I am also a fan of "each (psi-)mystic is on their own journey and will develop individual quirks." I'd also point to Eelemore, from the Wolfen Empire book, who rediscovered Rune Magic. His particular path... his research, his mindset, his relationship with his magic... led him there, but it is an incredibly difficult feat, one that is incredibly rare in magic.

Generally, I also would balk at giving a psi-mystic Warlock spells, simply because Warlock spells are better for their level than invocations of the same name... Fireball is a 3rd level spell for Warlocks, and a 6th level spell for Wizards... but that's mechanical more than anything else.

[darthauthor]

I meant, "invocations as opposed to other specific kinds of magic (e.g. Warlock spells, Russian Nature Magic, etc.)."

It feels kind of sad that they only get invocations spells.

I remember reading somewhere they they can't get Necromancer spells. They wrote it in Mystic Russia or the Book of Magic or somewhere.

But limited only to invocations spells feels rather unimaginative.

I feel a vague recollection of something about ocean magic or something. Like another race that lived in the sea had mystics and they were allow or required to get spells having to do with water.

Something about line drawing too. Some kind of South American line drawing magic that was Mystic Based.

The description of the Mystic OCC is one in which the spells they are given are based on their emotional and outlook. Perhaps to their life experiences and needs of the envirnment they live in or in some oracle like fashion will prepare them for the next adventure

IF I were to make a house rule GMing for a Mystic player character, I would limit them to one school of magic each time they leveled up and got new spells. However, I'd probably say what spells they could not have to keep them from abusing it or becoming to OP for the adventure or compared to the rest of the party.

Maybe a second limitation of only magical spells from specific kinds of magic that OCCs get from Mystic acquisition. For example, the Old Believer's Nature Magic or some of the Elemental magic of Warlocks (at least the non-damaging dealing spells like Create Wood, Grow Plants, Heal Burns [because they or a friend have been burnt or they will come across others who are], Resist/Immune to Cold/Fire/Lightning, Sheltering Force, Stone to Flesh [because their friend/love has been turned to stone], Walk the Wind). Also I have always thought that the magic of Biomancy had some low level spells that suited my vision of a Mystic : Commune with Nature (2), Weather Sense (1), Bio Scan, Bio Scan: Plants, Heal Plants, Insect Signals, and Whale Speak. All spells are 1st levell and harmless

[Library Ogre]

But limited only to invocations spells feels rather unimaginative.

The Rifts OCC Mystic was written before most other magics in the Megaverse had been converted to PPE, mind you.... there were no Necromancers casting spells with PPE.

Personally? I'd ignore it. Every mystic is a special snowflake, their powers are determined entirely by their worldview. Since they are limited to gaining spells by level, they're a lot less flexible than learned casters, so letting them take the odd necromancy spell just makes them a creepy mystic, not the powerhouse that a Line Walker with every kind of magic at his fingertips would be.

[darthauthor]

Thanks Library Orge,

I like the line, "Every Mystics is a special snowflake."

I want the lesser played OCC to by more attractive as I reward players for exploring outside of their Over Powered Zone of OCCs.

[Curbludgeon]

There are enough examples of variant Mystics gaining access to specialty magics (Born Mystics with Living Fire or Bone, Old Believers with Nature, Sea Mystics with Ocean, Mystic Knights with a combat focus, Grey Seers different psionics, etc.) that, when combined with the limitations of Mystics compared to other practitioners of magic puts me in the camp of letting them be snowflakes.

Sure, limiting Warlock spell access in some way is good, such as by perhaps doubling the effective spell level. Things which are narratively blocked like Rune Magic and Bio-Wizardry stay that way unless the game is specifically about subverting that. Any other specialist bonuses, such as Necromancers not having to pay double and Shadow Mages paying half within their respective specialties, would not apply. Any specialist abilities not described as spells, such as Mystic Herbology, the creation of Eco-Wizard and Technowizard items, and Bio-Wizard transmutation, would not apply. Effects without a level equivalent aren't available. This includes effects found in WB4 or PFRPG3, Chaos Magic, Cloud Magic, Conjuration, Diabolism, Nazca Line Drawing, Stone Magic, Summoning, Tattoo Magic, Whalesong, etc. Life Force Magic is unavailable.

How ridiculous could a Mystic Dilletante's spell list even be? Assume standard Mystic, with complete access to all Palladium "official" spell lists, and with the above stipulations.

I'm going to poke around and hopefully put something together. It would probably cherry pick effects from Crystal, Ocean, Temporal, Star, and Space, and depending on setting constraints dip from Biomancy, Chi, Fleshsculpting, Korallyte Shaping, Necromancy, Shadow, and Soulmancy. Most competition for slots would be at the highest levels.

[darthauthor]

Hey Curbludgeon,

So IF I am understanding you and you me, an acceptable list of spells for a Mystic could be the following:

A Mystic born and raised in Tolkeen before the war and its fall.

1st. Level of Experience:

A total of eight spells from the magic spell levels of one and two (Never actually says the spell are or have to be traditional invocation spells). Assume that what ever spells chosen they need to come for the same school of magic.

See Aura, See the Invisible, Sense Evil, Sense Magic,
Befuddle, Chameleon, Cleanse, Levitation

2nd Level of Experience: So 4 new spells from levels 1st thru 3rd

Then something special "happens" and the player character really wants to get in tune with nature /wilderness.

Biomancy: SO ALL the spells taken upon Reaching 2nd level have to be from the Biomancy School. No Mixing during the selection for the level advancement.

1. 1st level : Commune with Nature (not sure if I should list it as 2 PPE for which the Biomancer OCC casts it or 4 PPE)
2. 1st level : Weather Sense (1 or 2 for NOT being a Biomancer OCC?)
3. 2nd level : Insect Leap (5 or 10?)
4. 2nd level : Weave Plants (15 or 30?)

3rd Level of Experience: 3 Spells from levels 1 thru 4.

1. 3rd level Accelerate Plant Growth
2. 4th level Forest Camo
3. 4th level Strengthen Plants

4th Level of Experience : 2 Spells from levels 1 thru 4.

Common Nazca Line Drawing
1. Feast Sign (6 or 12 PPE) Say there was a Psi-Stalker in the party and we needed to feed him.
2. Healing Pattern (20 or 40 PPE).

5th Level of Experience : 2 Spells form levels 1 thru 5.

Plant Spell Magic From Spirit West

1. 5th level spell Spirit's Blessing (Plants) (15 PPE)
2. 3rd level spell Thornwall (10 PPE)

So the limitations are:

1. Spell level at or below the level of the Mystic

2. Spells from magic systems that ANY kind of Mystic OCC can acquire the way they learn new spells (only upon leveling up).

3. All spells picked during the leveling up are from the "same" school of magic spells. I feel this reflects the philosophical view of the mystic at the time they level up (what they want or need or feel or psychical foresee they will use to fulfill their destiny).
I could be wrong but I feel learning a Fire Warlock spell and a different Water Warlock spell the same level would be two different philosophies; unless its really just the same spell like "Heal Burns" or "Resist Cold"

The real limitation of the Mystic OCC is that they can't "learn" spells (like the high level powerful ones) but have to wait to level up

Any better ideas or corrections you see that would be more fair?

[darthauthor]

TWO questions come to my mind about "this" option for Mystics to pick spells from other schools/systems of magic.

Please tell me what you think of these questions and what you think the answers should be, to be fun and fair in play.

1. Since wizards like Ley Line Walkers can learn any spell (so long as they can find someone to teach them and get them to $ome how) should Mystics be allowed to pick spells such as the Air Warlock's "Lightblade" and "Sheltering Force" and other spells like that at levels earlier than a Ley Line Walker would acquire them without finding someone to teach them?

My Answer is you should ask your GM. IF one of the other players is a Ley Line walker or other master of magic the GM can also say that they found another wizard who will teach them Spell "X" (Lightblade, etc.). And if the GM wants to keep things SDC or just low MD he can deny them both. The point of the game is to have fun and there is more than one way to do that just as there is more than one flavor of fun.
A good argument for players is that it depends on the game session/campaign. I mean if you are fighting vampires (who regernate all damage) in Texas "Lightblade" feels very justified.

2. Should the Mystic pay twice the PPE to cast a non-invocation spell? Well, the Ley Line Walker has to pay double the PPE to cast spells they learn that are other than invocatins. In balancing the two OCC's I feel there is a "Fairness" about the Mystic having to pay the same cost, in PPE, that the Ley Line Walker does. Likewise, the original OCC like a Fire Warlock or Old Believer Nature Magic is getting kind of cheated if any one playing an Mystic OCC can take their best spells and cast them as well as they can without having to actually be their OCC.
I feel that a specialized OCC should do what they specialize in better than anyone who is NOT their specialized OCC.
The standard, as I see it, is you have to pay twice as much PPE to cast the same spell but you still get to cast it. The Ley Line Walker has to pay double so the Mystic should have to pay double also.

As a GM I may say that if a player really needs to cast a spell repeatedly and need to reduce its PPE cost because there is no Ley Line around and not enough volunteers with high PPE they can spend one of their upcoming 3rd level secondary skills to reduce the PPE cost of "ONE" particular spell they repeated practice to its base PPE cost. But then I'd have to offer the same "trade deal" to anyone playing a Ley Line Walker also.

[Library Ogre]

1. Since wizards like Ley Line Walkers can learn any spell (so long as they can find someone to teach them and get them to $ome how) should Mystics be allowed to pick spells such as the Air Warlock's "Lightblade" and "Sheltering Force" and other spells like that at levels earlier than a Ley Line Walker would acquire them without finding someone to teach them?

I would not allow this, in most cases. Wizards cannot learn Elemental Magic as a warlock does; they can learn wizard versions of those spells, which are usually twice the level (+/- 1). I would, similarly, not allow it to mystics.

2. Should the Mystic pay twice the PPE to cast a non-invocation spell?

I would not require that, on the other hand. While I can see the argument that the specialist should be better than the generalist, I think the specialists abilities ensure that. Your Mystic, while they may learn necromancy spells, doesn't have all of the necromancer's other abilities. They just know a couple of spells, and those spells (in theory) tie into their unique worldview.

Mechanically, there's nothing so amazing about Necromancy spells compared to Invocations of the same level. For Warlock spells, there is a clear advantage.

[darthauthor]

Hey Library Orge,

Let me see how canon I can reply to this.

I looked up something about Necromancy.

From the Mystic Russia book, necromancy spells can be learned by other spell
casters such as the Line Walker and Shifter, but to execute them,
the cost is double. Techno-Wizards and mystics NEVER learn Necro-Magic.

So, as I read it, Mystics can not come into Necromancy spells.

So that is one thing.

I may not have communicated myself well enough in the last post so here I go again.

4th level Mystic

Spells Selection
Level 1
See Aura, See the Invisible, Sense Evil, Sense Magic, Befuddle, Chameleon, Cleanse, Levitation

Level 2 - So a Mystic get 4 new spells from levels 1st thru 3rd
Earth Warlock
1. Level 1 - Create Wood
2. Level 2 - Create Clay
3. Level 2 - Grow Plants
4. Level 2 - Track

Level 3 - So 3 Spells from levels 1 thru 4.
Fire Warlock
1. 1st level - Create Coal
2. 1st level - Impervious to Fire
3. 2nd level - Darkness

4th Level of Experience : So 2 Spells from levels 1 thru 4.
Air Warlock
1. 4th level - Lightblade (24)
2. 3rd level - Sheltering Force (20)

So, like "this," is it fair or unfair for a Mystic to level up into "these" spells in this order?

No spell higher than the level they are.

No spell that a Warlock of the same level could not take.

IF it is unfair, why is it unfair?

I am not arguing that "Wizards" learn Elemental Magic as a warlock does.

I am looking at it like, "Mystics" can level-up into Elemental Magic the way a Warlock does. They go off into the woods for a week of fasting or something. When they return they some-how now know how to cast some spells they could not before. While they can't learn any other spells in any other way.

And yes, I agree with that they can't get any of the Warlocks special abilities (like the Fire Warlocks immunity to regular fire or any thing like that).

[Library Ogre]

From the Mystic Russia book, necromancy spells can be learned by other spell
casters such as the Line Walker and Shifter, but to execute them,
the cost is double. Techno-Wizards and mystics NEVER learn Necro-Magic.

So, as I read it, Mystics can not come into Necromancy spells.

BTB, no. But I've long viewed that as being a somewhat limited view of Mystics.

I color significantly outside the lines on a lot.

So, like "this," is it fair or unfair for a Mystic to level up into "these" spells in this order?

No spell higher than the level they are.

No spell that a Warlock of the same level could not take.

IF it is unfair, why is it unfair?

]

TBH, it's not terribly unfair. Mystics and other intuitive spellcasters are pretty shafted.

[darthauthor]

Hey Library Orge,

I don't object to "outside the box."

I applaud the creativity of those who use magic, psionics, tech, and skills in ways that overcome challenges; especially without violence or at least gun fighting.

Personally, I am not opposed to a Mystic leveling up into spells that the Necromancy can take. Some of them, actually look like they are good picks for my "idea" of a Mystic OCC. Specifically, the "Spirit" Magic from the Spirit Caller OCC subset of Necromancer school.

For me, it is about not cheating. More specifically, it is about playing FAIR with my fellow players and the GM. Or, at least, NOT being UNFAIR saying, "I can do that but you can't."

It doesn't need to be perfect for me to play it and enjoy it. It does spoil my enjoyment if the GM empowers one of the villains or NPC to do something beyond they abilities they have. Lazy story telling where the enemy knows where to find you and that you have set a trap for them. The villain we as player characters turn into the police escapes because of the inept guards or let go because of a techicality but when we are framed we are guilty until proven innocent and have Sherlock Holmes as our jailer who we discover can speak exotic languages when we talk to each other in them to camo what we say and can also decipher our coded notes to each other using cryptography in a city 2% literacy. He ignores all attempts at faking being dead via death trance. Suddenly has Lore magic and psychics and a minor psychic with the power of Mind Block when he dials in the combination to the gun safe and padlock on the door. Then a major psychic with see aura and 6th sense to know our party member has mentally possessed one of the other guards. Never drinks his sleep spell duped coffee or falls for psionic healing induce sleep power until after the spell has worn off and / or the jail cells locked. No matter how many times we cast Befuddle he always looks up the doors, guns, keys and remembers if we had vistors and who. Won't open the jail cell door when we are not there because we turned invisible or one of us steps into the others shadow via Shadow Meld. While the GM decided that the Trance spell won't make him give us any drink, food, information, radio, tools, weapons, or assist in any way shape or form anything to 'could' contribute to our escape or punish the other prisoners who stole from us as it would be acting against his alignment.
Really felt rail-roaded.
I lost patience too and wanted to be a baby dragon so I could rip out the bars, crush the guards head, and run through the walls to freedom.
Its seems that the way out was to cut a deal with crime boss inmate who had this guard on his take.

And I'm all like, "What about that can't act against his alignment stuff?"

[Curbludgeon]

I don't know anything about talk of fairness; this stuff's all handshake agreements. For purposes of the example I was discussing, in comparison to yours, I wasn't worrying about, for example, having all spells be of the same discipline when a character levels. However, Nazca Line Magic, whose effects are unleveled, wouldn't be available. I'd say if some version of the Dilettante is to see use in a game then there's an argument to perhaps reduce their psionics, but to the extent that classes like Ley Line Walker can potentially learn most of these spells even that might not be necessary. The main impact is to whatever setting work was already established. In that case, perhaps so players of Sea Druids and the like don't feel invalidated, the Dilettante is limited to demigods or whatever.

In the 'Types of Magic' thread I posted this list. Note it doesn't include "optional" stuff from Rifter, such as Song and Blade Magic.

Spoiler:

Invocation: Rifts Ultimate Edition, multiple other sources
African Ceremonial Magic: Rifts World Book 4: Africa (note there is considerable overlap between these and Tribal Shaman Chants in Palladium Fantasy RPG Book 3: Adventures on the High Seas)
African Witch: Rifts World Book 4: Africa
Biomancy: Rifts World Books 6: South America 1 and 32: Lemuria
Blue Flame: Rifts World Book 9:South America 2
Chi: Mystic China
Chaos: Chaos Earth Sourcebook 2: Rise of Magic
Cloud: Rifts World Book 14: New West
Combat: Rifts: Mercenary Adventures
Conjuring: Rifts World Book 16: Federation of Magic (also found in Palladium Fantasy RPG 10: Mount Nimro)
Crystal: Rifts Dimension Book 15: Secrets of the Atlanteans
Cybermagic: Nightbane World Book 3: Through the Glass Darkly
Demon: Rifts Dimension Book 12: Phase World: Dimensional Outbreak
Diabolism: Palladium Fantasy RPG
Dolphin: Rifts World Book 7: Underseas
Eco Wizardry: Rifts World Book 26: Dinosaur Swamp
Elemental: PFRPG, Rifts Conversion Book 1 (not the revised), additional spells in PFRPG books and perhaps elsewhere
Fleshsculptor: Nightbane World Book 3: Through the Glass Darkly
Frost: Rifter 70
Herb: Rifts World Book 3: England
Horune Dreamship: Rifts World Book 7: Underseas
Hunting: Rifts Vampire Sourcebook
Korallyte Shaping: Rifts World Book 7: Underseas
Life Force: Palladium Fantasy RPG 10: Mount Nimro
Living Fire: Rifts World Book 18: Mystic Russia
Mirror: Nightbane World Book 3: Through the Glass Darkly
Mortificant Arts: Rifter 50
Mystic Kuznya: Rifts World Book 18: Mystic Russia
Nature: Rifts World Book 18: Mystic Russia
Nazca Line: Rifts World Book 9:South America 2
Necromancy: Rifts World Books 4: Africa, 18: Mystic Russia, and "official" spells in a couple of Rifters
Ocean: Rifts World Books 8: Underseas and 32: Lemuria
Pyromancy: Rifter 82
Rainmaker: Rifts World Book 4: Africa
Shamanic/Shamanistic: Rifts World Book 15: Spirit West (see also "Inuit" Magic in Rifts World Book 20: Canada
Shadow: Rifts Dimension Book 15: Secrets of the Atlanteans (with several spells originally found in Palladium Fantasy RPG 12: Library of Bletherad)
Rune: PFRPG, Rifts World Book 2: Atlantis, examples found elsewhere, including lesser versions
Soulmancy: Rifts World Book 35: Megaverse in Flames
Space: Rifts Dimension Book 13: Phase World: Fleets of the Three Galaxies Sourcebook
Spoiling: Rifts World Book 18: Mystic Russia
Star: Rifter 50
Summoning: Palladium Fantasy RPG
Tattoo: Rifts World Books 2: Atlantis and 21: Splynn Dimensional Market, Dimensional Book 15: Secrets of the Atlanteans
Techno Wizardy: Rifts Ultimate Edition
Temporal: Rifts World Book 3: England (with a couple spells in Dimensional Book 13:Phase World Fleets of the Three Galaxies
Whalesong: Rifts World Book 7: Underseas

Earlier in this thread I some initial restrictions, clarified a bit here: Elemental spells are considered to be 2x-1 the level it would be for a Warlock, with some outliers increasing to 2x. Spells without a level equivalent aren't available. This includes effects found in WB4 or PFRPG3, Chaos Magic, Cloud Magic, Conjuration, Diabolism, Nazca Line Drawing, Stone Magic, Summoning, Tattoo Magic, Whalesong, etc. Heavily narratively limited stuff like Rune Magic and Bio-Wizardry aren't available unless the game is specifically about subverting that. Life Force Magic is unavailable, because learning it necessarily involves a change of class.

That leaves these schools. Some of these are narratively restricted, if perhaps not as strongly as something like Rune Magic. Examples include Dolphin, Hunting, Shadow, Shamanic, Demon, et al. In the same spirit, while Mystics aren't expressly banned from rituals it's often seen as ill-fitting, and so the all-ritual Fleshcrafting discipline could come across as a bad fit. For the moment they're all still in.

Spoiler:

Invocation
Biomancy
Blue Flame
Chi
Crystal
Combat
Demon
Dolphin
Elemental Air
Elemental Earth
Elemental Fire
Elemental Water
Fleshsculptor
Frost
Hunting
Korallyte Shaping
Living Fire Magic
Mirror
Mortificant Arts
Nature Magic
Necromancy
Ocean Magic
Pyromancy
Shamanic/Shamanistic
Shadow
Soulmancy
Space
Spoiling
Star
Temporal

I'm having a bit of trouble sussing out what's most dipworthy. From Living Fire, for example, the spell Bright Sun is arguably the standout, as is Shadow Vision from Shadow. Ocean Magic has Strength of the Whale and Grow Tentacles. Blue Flame has Flame Halo. Mirror Magic might get skipped entirely.

[Library Ogre]

Earlier in this thread I some initial restrictions, clarified a bit here: Elemental spells are considered to be 2x-1 the level it would be for a Warlock, with some outliers increasing to 2x.

Personally, I go with 2x (+/- 1)... sometimes it's higher than 2x, sometimes its lower than 2x, and sometimes it's straight 2x. Call Lightning and Fireball are both 2x, for example.

[Curbludgeon]

Oh, totally. That helps keep level 1-2 warlock effects from being undervalued, as well.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Is the Mystic OCC limited to only invocations spells at 1st level and every level after?

They are limited to common magic spells, is the way I would put it.
If the spells are in all the core-books (HU 1&2, BTS1, PF....) then they are the common magic spells.

This is unless the GM knows the party needs a particuler spell to get past a point in the campaine. Then the GM will do some 'hand-wavium' of some sort so the Mystic knows that spell.
ideas how...
--the spell is a boon from a deity or other SN being for doing something for it. Ether added to 'known spells' or the mystic has a limited number of times the mystic can cast the spell. (sort of like having charges in a talisman.)
--the mystic rolled on the pro's & con's tables in that rifter, and ended up with an extra spell.

[darthauthor]

Library Orge,

I don't understand what you mean by 2x-1.

You write, " Call Lightning and Fireball are both 2x, for example."

I have to look at the book and what not.

I see the spell "Call Lightning" is a 6th level invocation.

Does Call Lightning being a 2x spell mean that it is twice the level as an Invocation spell than it would be for a Warlock?

What does that mean for a Mystic?

Can they take it at level 3?

Or do they have to wait until level 6?

More than anything else, I don't know.

[Curbludgeon]

Fireball and Call Lightning are both Level Three Warlock spells, but are Level Six Invocations.

In a game where Mystics can pick spells from other disciplines, they should probably be considered Level Six spells.

The spell Frostblade is a Level Two Warlock spell, but a Level Six Invocation. Globe of Daylight is a Level One spell for both Warlocks and Invocation users. So only some spells work out to being twice the Warlock level when converted to an Invocation.

Not every Warlock spell has been converted to an Invocation. In a game where Mystics can learn some Warlock stuff, a good starting point is thus to start with treating the Warlock spell as an Invocation of twice the original level, and then adjusting via comparison to other spells of that level.

[darthauthor]

From my point of view, the Mystic OCC should be allow to pick Warlock Magic up to the level they have but pay twice the PPE to cast them ( the same as the Ley Line Walker).

But just because I see things that way does not mean they are fair or that it is the only way of doing things.

I get the idea that IF a mystic picked spell like frost blade at 2nd level the Ley Line Walker does not get to pick in until they reach "that" level. Also, know that they can learn spells and even invent new ones or at least variation of some of them.

I guess that's the difference between LEARNED vs INTUITION spell casters.
The learns can learn spells so they should know more spells IF that is their focus. I the games I was in two casters a Ley Line Walker and a Shifter got together and taught and learned from each other 1 for 1 every spell the other did not have and wanted. I thought it was a great team work move.

So I ask you as I ask myself what is the worst that can happen or how is it unfair to the Ley Line Walker if the Mystic OCC picked a few spells that they have to buy, learn from another or learn after leveling up.
It does not seem to me any more unfair than Juicer being in the same group as a merc soldier OCC

[Curbludgeon]

A game with Mystics able to intuit Elemental spells at the character level they're granted to a Warlock, who are still able to intuit spells outside that discipline, and has psionics, kind of takes much of the shine off of Warlocks as a character choice even if those elemental spells are cast at the cost as if they were invocations.

That can totally work, of course. It's largely a function of how many types of practitioners of magic one has in a game, the availability of gaining new spells, and starting/speed of gaining levels. If the goal is to get a homebrew Mystic up to the effective power level of a Ley Line Walker who shared starting spells with a Shifter at level 1, then there's some real leeway in adjustments. A major superpower needn't be out of place.

[darthauthor]

The key take away I am seeing is, "kind of takes much of the shine off of Warlocks as a character"

Which, to me, is the part which seems unfair. It's unfair to the Warlock OCC.
i admit one OCC should not be able to out performed a specialized OCC in its speciality.
I would however, take it on a case by case basis. If the majority of the position is that being able to use "Frost-Blade" is the issue there is one or two ways we can address it.

One, "Frost-Blade" cost the same PPE that it would cost a Ley Line Walker to cast who got it from roleplaying in an adventure. That way the Warlock does not lose shine because that is the way it is for the Ley Line Walker.
Two, the Mysics OCC can only take spells that don't do damage. So flavor spells like create wood or grow plants to help with the crops in a farming area. Spells that detect important plot, story or the enemy are accpetable. Likewise, spells that conceal but do no damage are acceptable. Any spell that effectively is a substitute invocation spell from the spell range 1 thru 4 or the Mystics current level.

Of course, one should ask, "Why bother?"
Impressively winning a fight with a powerful advantage can feel like that is what you were made for. And feeling are the reason we play the game.
Well, the game is not all combat (unless you play it that way). To me, the idea of a Mystic OCC is that they can opperate outside of the box. Well, that and I get an image in my head of them doing things that would be iconic for someone the mystic archtype would be famous for, like astral projection, talking to spirits, exorcising possessing entities, telling the future or the past, being able to fight or resolve conflict thru exploritory adventure with demons and supernatural things, etc. So solve the mystery of who murdered whom and right the injustice. So TV shows like "The Dead Zone" or "Dead Beat" or "Supernatural"

But that is just my tastes and point of view.

My beliefs are that it is not overstepping into and on the Warlock OCC if it does not matter in combat but feels good in story telling and becomes a means of plot advancement, conflict resolution, mystery solving, role-playing the character.

[Library Ogre]

Library Orge,

I don't understand what you mean by 2x-1.

You write, " Call Lightning and Fireball are both 2x, for example."

I have to look at the book and what not.

I see the spell "Call Lightning" is a 6th level invocation.

Does Call Lightning being a 2x spell mean that it is twice the level as an Invocation spell than it would be for a Warlock?

What does that mean for a Mystic?

Can they take it at level 3?

Or do they have to wait until level 6?

More than anything else, I don't know.

The level of a warlock spell rendered as an invocation should be about twice the level of the warlock spell, plus or minus one.

So, Call Lightning is a 6th level invocation, because it is a 3rd level warlock spell (likely, the real-world reasoning is opposite that, but I am presuming a "invocations in the game world were developed from similar warlock spells", rather than dealing with the logic of the game design).

If you take something like Blinding Flash, which is a 1st level warlock spell, a strict 2x interpretation would make it a 2nd level invocation; but it is a first level invocation, which means, for that spell at least, the level of the invocation is 2x-1, where x is the level of the warlock spell. That is also in line with what Curbludgeon posted.

My addendum to Curbludgeons 2x or 2x-1 is to allow the possibility of 2x+1, such as Breathe without Air... a level 1 Air Warlock spell that is a level 3 invocation (2x+1, where x is the level of the warlock spell).

I still would limit mystics to invocation spell levels rather than warlock spell levels... your 3rd level mystic can't take Call Lightning, as it is a 6th level invocation. However, 2x +/1 allows you to convert a warlock spell that isn't an invocation pretty seamlessly... if my mystic wants Create Mild Wind (a 1st level air warlock spell that is not, to my knowledge, an invocation), then I should be looking at between levels 1 and 3. It likely should not be a 4th level spell, as that's outside the general 2x +/- 1 guideline.

[Mack]

darthauthor, a few times you mentioned fairness. Keep in mind that that there is no fairness in Rifts. The different OCCs are all inherently, deliberately, unbalanced.

Glitterboy Pilots get one of the most powerful canons in the game. Vagabonds get a candy bar.

[hup7]

First are you talking about a general rule or a specific character? Is it your character or a character in your (GM) game?

This can influence how you rank fairness, balance or even suitability for the game. Every rifts game I have played or run has been a slightly different power level. Power level is something you should at least loosely discuss with your GM to check everyone is on the same page. Inherently Rifts has very unbalanced character classes - I see this especially in the "magic users", but really that comes down a lot to how the GM handles them. Ley Line walkers become very strong compared to mystics IF there are a lot of spells available for purchase; for example.

Now if you are talking about a single unique NPC in the campaign - then sure mixing and matching as a one off would not be a big issue. Even if it is a character in your campaign you can discuss carefully which choices each level and make sure they fit with the campaign.

As a general rule, yes they can only learn invocations. As a GM I don't have time to read every possible magic type from every book and make sure there are no combinations that will cause major issues down the line.

[eliakon]

It depends on which Mystics really.
The Mystic in Nightbane for example *explicitly* can learn other spells once it passes level 4 as I recall.