Power Line Repair---B.E. or E.E.?

[taalismn]

Okay, for the task of repairing and replacing your average everyday power lines and splicing in replacement transformers and other parts, would Basic Electronics suffice, or would our lineman have to be a full-blown Electrical Engineer?

[Killer Cyborg]

Hm.
Realistically, it’d be its own skill. There’s a lot of weird specialty gear you have to use and understand, and I don’t thing basic could cover it without a lot of extra time learning the specifics of the job.
An electrical engineer could do the job, but I think they’d still need a bunch of extra training, because of job-specific details.
Like using a time domain reflectomiter would probably be pretty easy, but depending on the lines some are (or were) pressurized, and they’d find the leaks using ultrasonic listeners to find the leak.
And there’s a lot of waterproofing and such.

If auto mechanic is a separate skill from basic mechanics, this might likewise be able to be its own thing.
Otherwise, I’d let Basic work but either slow af, or with additional training.

[ShadowLogan]

Someone with Basic Electronics or even Radio basic at a penalty (skill mentions laying wire and installation) could assist someone with the proper knowledge, but they could not do it themselves.

Electrical Engineer seems closest, though a case might also exist for it to be covered by the Electricity Genertion skill (RUE pg308) IMHO since it mentions linking which could be taken as distribution.

Though in all honesty I agree with KC, as written no skill really covers it explicitly and it should be its own skill. I looked up class list for two programs at a local Tecnical College that offers different Electrical Programs (one of which is specifically is Line Tech), but they had very little (if any applicable) common classes (by name/class code, material covered by the classes themselves could overlap I did not drill down that far in terms of what gets covered in a given class).

[guardiandashi]

its kind of complicated because there are a lot of cases where there is massive holes in the listed skills in palladium and what they cover.

basic electronics: pg 308 RUE
could wire a house and attempt to repair basic stuff, appliances etc.
electrical engineer design and build advanced electrical (systems) except robot electronics
Electrical generation a specialist skill between basic electronics and electrical engineer

[Impeesa]

its kind of complicated because there are a lot of cases where there is massive holes in the listed skills in palladium and what they cover.

Although the organization and coverage could be better, I think this is a case where it's close enough to an existing skill (Basic Electronics) but with some job-specific training and certification that is too specific to realistically have a separate skill or listing for (at that level of detail, the bloat would fill its own book). Electrical Engineering seems more like a design lab/desk job sort of skill. If I were to propose a house rule fix, you could maybe allow people to choose a specialty for skills like that at a certain level of skill advancement, or by spending another skill selection to upgrade it.

[guardiandashi]

its kind of complicated because there are a lot of cases where there is massive holes in the listed skills in palladium and what they cover.

Although the organization and coverage could be better, I think this is a case where it's close enough to an existing skill (Basic Electronics) but with some job-specific training and certification that is too specific to realistically have a separate skill or listing for (at that level of detail, the bloat would fill its own book). Electrical Engineering seems more like a design lab/desk job sort of skill. If I were to propose a house rule fix, you could maybe allow people to choose a specialty for skills like that at a certain level of skill advancement, or by spending another skill selection to upgrade it.

the way I read RUE it also says that a person with basic electronics can work with an electrical engineer
this is a case where I would also argue that someone with basic electronics, but with access to a person with electrical engineer would absolutely be able to do it, IE the electrical engineer has the theory and big picture knowledge to design and implement the system but a basic electronics person can mostly do it, and in the cases where they have questions, or issues crop up that they can't figure out, they ask the engineer

[taalismn]

The situation came up because I was designing an urban defense robot(AI) and one of my friends suggested that if you've got a thirty-ft tall 'bot roaming the city, giving it the ability the repair power lines it knocks down or that are damaged in combat/storms/earthquakes would be a plus to its PR image and versatility. Plus you got a moving gantry already.

Then picking the right skill combos became an issue...

[drewkitty ~..~]

Hm.
Realistically, it’d be its own skill.
...snip

Agrees with KC on this.

[Library Ogre]

I'd lean towards BE at a penalty (10-15%), EE at no penalty, and an additional penalty if you don't have Climbing.

[NMI]

There is a skill: Electricity Generation in a few books - Mutants in Orbit and I think Chaos Earth.

[green.nova343]

Really tough call. But I think it probably comes down to what exactly the knowledge base is that you're looking at.

Specialized tools? Don't think we really have that in the current skills -- for example, there are plenty of specialized tools used in by automotive & aircraft mechanics (that use their own skills) but for whom their knowledge doesn't approach that of a Mechanical Engineer simply because their knowledge is limited to their field...but while the ME also doesn't have the specialty experience in those particular fields, the assumption in the current skill system is that their wider general knowledge & expertise at how to figure out how things work compensates for any specific field expertise they might be missing -- for example, someone with Aircraft Mechanics knows there's a different set of parts that goes with the TF33 turbofan engine vs. the F110 turbofan, & would probably be able to identify them just by looking at them...but probably doesn't know how to distinguish a Chevy 455 from a Ford 460. Conversely, someone with Auto Mechanics could differentiate the Chevy 455 & Ford 460, & that they'll need a completely different set of socket wrenches if working on a Toyota engine,but probably doesn't know the difference between a turbojet & a turbofan. The Mechanical Engineer, however, might not necessarily know the particular engines by type from either sector...but could use his skills & knowledge to examine the engines & make some very well-educated guesses as to their purpose, power, & be able to work on them. And let's not forget...just about any mechanic worth their weight is going to have the proper repair manuals in their repair bay anyway, & a ME should be able to easily use those to their advantage.
[*]
I would say most lineman probably only have very basic knowledge of electricity generation. They know what a transformer is, & they can probably identify the type of line that was running on the pole before it was torn down. But to actually design the power generation network, determine the spacing and number of transformers needed for a particular neighborhood, know when it's time to add a new substation? That's not their purview. They haul heavy equipment & cables up into the air in a bucket crane, they have predetermined procedures on how to install prebuilt equipment a certain way, & they know how to count so that they know when they're running low on supplies...but

Electricity Generation is in Mutants in Orbit & RUE. You need Basic Math, Basic Electronics (or better) & Basic Mechanics (or Better). However, it says you also understand how the actual power generators work (even if you can't build them), which is potentially more than the typical "lineman" knows.

I would recommend something like this:

• Basic linemen (they repair what's been damaged as it was, or if they're installing new equipment they're following a predetermined plan), they can probably get by with either General Repair & Maintenance (-10% to maybe a -15% penalty, but only when working with the more complex equipment), or the Basic Electronics/Mechanics (depending on how much manual connection needs to be done on the equipment: "plug-and-play" type connectors probably get by with Basic Mechanics, if you need to do actual soldering I'd say you need Basic Electronics).
• More advanced linemen/supervisors, and the designers of the power grids need Electricity Generation, along with the prerequisites (Basic Math, Electronics, & Mechanics). They'll know how many solar panels, nuclear generators, or other systems, as well as the class & amount of cable, needed, plus how many transformers & boosters will be needed...but they still don't know how to design those advanced components.
• To actually design those power generation systems, you need Electricity Generation with Basic Math (possibly Advanced Math), Electrical Engineer, and Mechanical Engineer. That's to actually design the systems, or to make adjustments, configuration changes, modifications (boosting power levels, changing the AC frequency, etc).

Now...if someone had the plans on how to build a particular power generation system, and you had detailed & readable schematics that precisely labeled every particular component (including where they went, how they go in, & the proper sequence to install the 5 resistor units so that unit #1 doesn't block unit #5 from being inserted in that narrow section underneath...), and every component was meticulously labeled & stored with the proper testing equipment (with detailed instructions & schematics) to make sure that the components are functioning both before & after assembly...then even someone with General Repair & Maintenance could conceivable assemble one of these devices...but that's it. They won't know how to design the distribution network to go with it, how to calculate how many homes/workshops it will power, how long it would take to recharge an e-Clip, etc. It would be the equivalent of someone finding a disabled GRV with a working nuclear power system that has a handily-labelled "auxiliary power output receptacle here" & hooks it up to power his home, but has trouble figuring out why he keeps blowing the circuit breakers every week, let alone how to splice 5 neighbors' homes into the unit.

[taalismn]

Original problem was simply to effect repairs on power lines that the big honking robot just pulled down wandering around town.
But I can see how that could involve full-up electrical engineers fast(considering how squirrels can knock down entire power grids...).

[NMI]

Without creating new skills, I would just go with Electrical Engineer and/or Electricity Generation. Simple as that. No need to reinvent the wheel.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The only problem I see with using the Electricity Generation skill is that it is 1st ed Rifts. Or to say base in the RMB canon......and would (like other of the earlier worldbooks) benefit from a 2nd ed update.


I'm of two minds about updating PB gamebooks, the most glaring is PB tendency to not actually make confusing things better with the update. Just changing one confusing idea to a similar confusing idea. Example: PB could of take the Dog Boy/Psi Hound and listed as a race and then listed what Character Classes went with it. Making the text easier to understand because they were not mixing the Racial Text with that of its Character Class text, and calling the whole thing a Character Class.

[Blue_Lion]

Hm.
Realistically, it’d be its own skill.
...snip

Agrees with KC on this.

Saw a skill for it in house rules for a game, but not my house rule so not sure if it would be right to share.

[green.nova343]

The only problem I see with using the Electricity Generation skill is that it is 1st ed Rifts. Or to say base in the RMB canon......and would (like other of the earlier worldbooks) benefit from a 2nd ed update.


I'm of two minds about updating PB gamebooks, the most glaring is PB tendency to not actually make confusing things better with the update. Just changing one confusing idea to a similar confusing idea. Example: PB could of take the Dog Boy/Psi Hound and listed as a race and then listed what Character Classes went with it. Making the text easier to understand because they were not mixing the Racial Text with that of its Character Class text, and calling the whole thing a Character Class.

What about the version in RUE?

[glitterboy2098]

I would argue that the technicians doing the work can get by with just basic electronics, so long as they are working with standardized infrastructure.. but the person or persons who created their instructions, training, and the infrastructure design require electrical engineering.

As soon as the workers have to start mcguyvering the hardware to make it work though, they need the higher skill. But if replacing the lines is mostly a case of attaching the new cables to the old cables, junction boxes, or transformers, they can get by with basic skills and their knowledge of the standardized layouts and hardware.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The only problem I see with using the Electricity Generation skill is that it is 1st ed Rifts. Or to say base in the RMB canon......and would (like other of the earlier worldbooks) benefit from a 2nd ed update.


I'm of two minds about updating PB gamebooks, the most glaring is PB tendency to not actually make confusing things better with the update. Just changing one confusing idea to a similar confusing idea. Example: PB could of take the Dog Boy/Psi Hound and listed as a race and then listed what Character Classes went with it. Making the text easier to understand because they were not mixing the Racial Text with that of its Character Class text, and calling the whole thing a Character Class.

What about the version in RUE?

That is the the example I used about how they didn't change the the "confusing part" from RMB and RUE.
I'm experienced enough to take apart what is Racial Text, and what is their Character Class. But if it is a new player or new GM trying to take things apart to play a free born adventurer...

[Orin J.]

of the two choices electrical engineer would work best. if you can wire an entire building you should be able to understand how to affect repairs to the power lines in theory, i've created new skills for less but that's not the question here.

i think your biggest bottleneck is that including the tools in a giant robot to properly repair power lines and judge them safe to use is gonna include a lot of other skills reflecting making sure the whole repair is structurally secure, communicating with whoever is operating the power grid correctly to ensure the repairs are done safely, and assessing the surrounding area doesn't pose a further damage risk....

[glitterboy2098]

to be honest, if you expect a large robot to be stomping around your city often enough to worry about the power lines, odds are you are going to be installing those lines underground to avoid the issue.

[green.nova343]

The only problem I see with using the Electricity Generation skill is that it is 1st ed Rifts. Or to say base in the RMB canon......and would (like other of the earlier worldbooks) benefit from a 2nd ed update.


I'm of two minds about updating PB gamebooks, the most glaring is PB tendency to not actually make confusing things better with the update. Just changing one confusing idea to a similar confusing idea. Example: PB could of take the Dog Boy/Psi Hound and listed as a race and then listed what Character Classes went with it. Making the text easier to understand because they were not mixing the Racial Text with that of its Character Class text, and calling the whole thing a Character Class.

What about the version in RUE?

That is the the example I used about how they didn't change the the "confusing part" from RMB and RUE.
I'm experienced enough to take apart what is Racial Text, and what is their Character Class. But if it is a new player or new GM trying to take things apart to play a free born adventurer...

Not sure what's confusing about it. The MiO version basically lets anyone without even Basic Electronics take the skill, but it only lets them work with solar panels & nuclear power sources (because that's all the stations & the Lunar facilities can use). The RUE version goes into much more detail, from combustion engines to batteries to nuclear & solar.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Not sure what's confusing about it. The MiO version basically lets anyone without even Basic Electronics take the skill, but it only lets them work with solar panels & nuclear power sources (because that's all the stations & the Lunar facilities can use). The RUE version goes into much more detail, from combustion engines to batteries to nuclear & solar.

sorry, it appeared to me that you were responding to the 2nd half of my post.

[green.nova343]

Not sure what's confusing about it. The MiO version basically lets anyone without even Basic Electronics take the skill, but it only lets them work with solar panels & nuclear power sources (because that's all the stations & the Lunar facilities can use). The RUE version goes into much more detail, from combustion engines to batteries to nuclear & solar.

sorry, it appeared to me that you were responding to the 2nd half of my post.

LOL, no worries. I'm happy with the RUE book on making some things clear, but not as happy that some things are still left unclear. But that's the nature of the Beast...