Attack on sleeping/unconscious PC/NPC

[Franko Tyrador]

I didnt see anything in the book about this. is there still a to-hit roll, what damage, etc?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Unless the char has some sort of ability to fight while asleep or unconscious use the basic strike parameters.

If you figure out there is something funny about saying it in such a complicated way as to hint that there are some powers or abilities that might let a sleeping char dodge an attack... then you are correct there is at least one of those. It is just not in the PF game.

EDIT: As a GM an attack roll vs the sleeping is more about does the attacker "stab him-/herself in the foot" sort of thing.

[Veknironth]

Well, it seems to me that you wouldn't need to do much of combat for that. The person attacking the sleeper wouldn't need to roll an attack or anything. Just state the action. This is usually the old "slit the throat" or "chop off the head" death strike. The question I have is what happens to the attacked creature? If it's in a normal slumber, it's going to wake and could take action (well, not with the decapitation one). Perhaps the character could realize what happened and enact some healing before bleeding out, like from a magic item. Or someone might be be able to step in with a magic remedy to prevent certain death. I guess you'd need to figure out how long it takes for someone to bleed out from that wound, and that isn't going to be in the book either. It just says 1 HP per minute, but that doesn't seem to take into account arterial bleeding. The recently awakened victim could also mount an attack of his or her own before dying.

If someone is under a spell, like Cloud of Slumber, then would they have a save against the spell when someone is attempting to kill them? That particular spell does not allow for it, so that would need to be house ruled for each sleep inducing effect. If the person is just asleep for minutes and an artery is cut, that's just a matter of how long it takes the person to die.

-Vek
"This is why PCs never sleep."

[Franko Tyrador]

Ok, good points all...so what house rules have you seen/used for attacking someone (PC or NPC) who is asleep/KO'ed/magicked? Auto-kill, straight to 0 HP, double or triple damage?

[kiralon]

I talk to the players about it beforehand, i do allow executions if the players want them, but what players can do to others, others can do to players.

[The Beast]

Wasn't there a rule for attacking sleeping vampires in the original VK book?

[Library Ogre]

My quickie house rule:

If not in combat, but it's possible they will not outright kill the thing, I would give them a Natural +4 to attacks. That means that, if the person has no armor (and thus a normal AR of 4), the attacker will automatically hit them. If the target has armor (natural or something that gives them an AR and they can sleep in), then it might hit the armor. I call it a Natural +4 because that allows it to qualify for Critical Strikes and Death Blows.

If in combat, I would go with a +4; probably gonna hit them, but not any more likely to crit or DB.

[TheEvilDM]

really depends on whom they are killing. If its a bunch of monsters that are sleeping, sneak up (requires roll) and then roll to see if you hit or botch it up. Basically I am looking for anything over 1 when it comes to any creature that doesnt have armor on or natural AR. Its a called strike so they have a +4, so even if they rolled a 2, they'd have a 6 with out any other modifiers. IF they roll a 1, I don't care how many modifiers, they botch it. Either they trip over the sleeping person during their attempt, or some weird happens that the creature wakes up and moves... BUT with that said, creatures and NPCs can do the same thing to PCs.

[Franko Tyrador]

Right, i get what everyone is saying for the 'to-hit', but what about damage. Auto-kill, double, triple, quadruple damage, straight to 0 HP?

[Veknironth]

Well, I think it depends on the attack. If the sneak attacker is just attacking at the center of mass, then roll damage per normal. If they do something lethal like chopping off the head, then there is no need to roll damage. That is, unless you want to have them to a certain amount of damage to cut through whatever SDC a neck has. If they are doing something that will cause catastrophic bleeding, like stabbing the heart or cutting the carotid or femoral artery, then it's more complicated. At that point, you have to figure out how long would it take for that person to bleed to death? The Femoral is around 5 minutes unless there is some medical/magical/or psionic intervention. So, you take that person's HP (and if you must, SDC), divide by 20 and that's the blood loss per melee round. For other arteries, it can be even faster. So for the carotid it can be a minute, with the same for the Aorta. So maybe they lose 25% of their HP + SDC per melee.

Alternatively, you can ignore SDC and have the damage go directly to HP. Either way, there is some time for the victim to take some actions. I also would be careful about what characters are using. They can't cut an artery with a mace. But, they could cave in someone's soft tissue face and maybe damage the brain. At a minimum they're going to blind there target. For something like that, you can go directly to HP and allow for a damage multiplier. I'd say double damage, but you'd need a called shot since it's a relatively small target.

If there is AR involved, you're going to need to overcome it somehow. That would be something you'd need to roll over but I'd offer a bonus to strike of something like +8.

Now, if the vitcim is in a situation where they cannot wake even if assaulted, don't bother with damage. Just start rolling 3d6.

-Vek
"Best to never sleep."

[Veknironth]

Well I was thinking more about this and I need a caveat. Everything I said is only for up close. If you're firing at soemone from range with a bow, using a thrown weapon, or some other object then it's just roll to hit and there is no additional damage. The same goes for magic or psionic attacks.

-Vek
"Definitely best not to sleep."

[Library Ogre]

Right, i get what everyone is saying for the 'to-hit', but what about damage. Auto-kill, double, triple, quadruple damage, straight to 0 HP?

Out of combat, you kill them, barring some really good reason.

If you are in combat, this is why I like the natural 4 bonus... it increases the likelihood of a critical strike by about 20%, and makes hits automatic against unarmored foes, but it does not make attacks against someone who is helpless automatically deadly if you can't take the time to kill them.

[Franko Tyrador]

so, if someone casts a sleep spell or something similar. (any spell/psy-power, etc) that puts you to sleep, or immobilizes...that's an autokill on the PC/NPC?

[Library Ogre]

so, if someone casts a sleep spell or something similar. (any spell/psy-power, etc) that puts you to sleep, or immobilizes...that's an autokill on the PC/NPC?

If everyone on your side fails the save, yes.

Of course, with PCs, you might not want to autokill everyone.

[ShadowLogan]

I didnt see anything in the book about this. is there still a to-hit roll, what damage, etc?

While I do not know of any instances in the Palladium Fantasy Line specifically, megaversally the old 1E RT licensed books did have one mention of this in "The REF Field Guide" pg128-29. It can also be found in Rifts Conversion Book 1 revised (pg22-3), possibly other books but these seem to be intended as megaversal rules (the way it is presented in the RT1E book leads me to think it was not intended for just RT1E).

"1.) If the target is immobile,, such as an unconscious person or somebody who is tied up, the attacker will automatically strike his target at point-blank range (10ft/3m or closer). No roll to strike is necessary unless the target/victim can dodge or unless the attacker is shooting wild. However, without the strike roll, a critical strike (double damage) is impossible. On the other hand, damage is automatically much greater.

2.) [i]Damage at point blank range is full S.D.C. damage and half hit point damage.[i]..." (they go on to illustrate how this works, though it isn't clear if you roll damage or not).

There are additional side effects (this is from a gunshot discussion, but IMHO its still applicable here), and it even considers a shot to the HEAD or HEART. There is also blood loss rules (while framed w/n modern weapons, it should still apply to some ancient weapons I would think).