In Orbit of RIFTS Earth?

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Sambot
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Re: In Orbit of RIFTS Earth?

Unread post by Sambot »

Hotrod wrote:How else are we supposed to call for help?


How does getting to the radio help when you just turned everyone else into lunch? Presuming of course you could even get to the radio?


How about getting on the roof and trying hand signals, waving, mirrors, lights, torches, flags, clothing, pillow sheets, etc? Writing out messages on the roof with anything you can? Seeing if the building your in has any working communications? There's all kinds of things one can do without exposing yourself and others needlessly to danger.
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Re: In Orbit of RIFTS Earth?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Sambot wrote:
Sambot wrote:That's presuming they are looking down. Most though have put the Earth behind them and those there now, have no loyalty to Earth at all. Space is their home. Not Earth. If they are looking, they're going to see an Earth, that is not the Earth of their ancestors. Most maps are useless. There's no nations they recognize. Why should they believe there are friendlies down there?

I'm glad you have an optimistic opinion of humanity and there are some who'd share your opinion. Most don't but Outcast station is more tolerant.

That's a burden of proof fallacy. Friendlies existed before the Coming of the Rifts, and MiO's Orbitals believe that none exist today, but MiO presents no good argument or evidence to explain this conclusion. Sure, you can invent some (and you've been busy doing so in this discussion), but the book itself fails to do so. It would be like RUE presenting the current policies of the Coalition with zero explanation or context explaining why they do what they do and how they got to where they are.


:shock: :-? We are reading the same book, aren't we? In English? :-? There's no burden of proof fallacy or invention. It's there in the book. They watched the Earth tear itself apart. The Earth they knew is gone. The nations of origin are gone. It doesn't matter that Friendlies existed before the Rifts. What matters is what exists after the Rifts. What exists now is know one they'd know. Not that any of them would care because 300 years have passed and the people now have no connection to the nations of the past.


The Orbitals assumed that there are no friendlies down below when it's obvious that there are people down below and they have made no effort whatsoever to determine if those people are friendly or hostile.



Sambot wrote:
Sambot wrote:I don't need to invent anything. It's in the book page 61. It says right there why the killer satellites were there and are maintained. If there was nothing coming up why would killer satellites need to be replaced?

p61 is insufficient, and your logic is circular. They need killer satellites because the book says so, and the book says so because they need killer satellites.

Let's consider this from another perspective. We have the stats for killer satellites and some presumption that stuff occasionally tries to come up the well. Ok. What tries to come up the well? Could the player characters get involved in helping the Orbitals? How do we put on such a fight when all we have to play with is the killer satellites and some spaceship creation rules? MiO only models this from the perspective of the people trying to get into orbit, not from the perspective of the Orbitals.


Good grief. It's like Holly telling Dave, everybody'd dead. They're all dead. Details are nice but the lack of them doesn't change the fact that they're all dead. MiO says why. That it's not detailed enough doesn't make it less valid.

Now you want suggestions for what comes up? :shock: I don't know what's there. I've made suggestions. Maybe aliens. Maybe just killer satellites. Maybe just space debris. Maybe all of the above? Maybe a CCW quarantine fleet? Maybe TPTB left that open for the GM to decide?

They PCs are where? If they're on Earth, how do they know about Orbitals and whether or not they're still up there? Why would they want to go? How would they get there? If they somehow gain the means to get into orbit, do they have the means to fight past whatever keeps people from orbit? If they some how manage to do all that and get into space, will they even be able to communicate with most of the stations without being fired on? Most see everything on earth as an enemy. And just how would they help anyway?

Are the PCs in space? Why would they want to risk going to Earth to be come some thing's lunch or plaything? Even if they managed to get to Earth how would they get anyone to believe them? Unless of course they're seen landing in which case they'll probably be met with gunfire.


How do the Orbitals reconcile their conclusion that everyone below is dead with city lights in plain sight below, radio traffic that includes unencrypted human voices speaking human languages, and active man-made structures and vehicles one can easily see from orbit? MiO doesn't even try to address this, and that is a major failing of the book. I acknowledge that it's possible to add material and explanations to make the scenario less implausible, but that shouldn't be necessary. This is a fundamental flaw in MiO as a Rifts setting.


Sambot wrote:
Sambot wrote:It's exactly as I said,
There's radios and there's radios.
. Not every radio can pick up signals transmitted by other radios. Just like not every computer can use media or programs from another computer. For all we know the Orbitals are Apple and the CS is Windows.

You seem to have trouble accepting that people of Rifts Earth and Orbitals, who have future tech and would depend on radios far more than you do, would far exceed your own equipment capabilities and knowledge.


You seem unwilling to accept that technology not only changes but is abandoned and lost. You also seem unwilling to accept that not everything is compatible. Even when I give examples, you say I don't understand. I don't have to be able to build a radio or TV or computer or anything else to know that not everything is compatible. I can't even use my hair dryer in Europe without an adapter. But that old vacuum tube radio can receive every channel on every frequency, analog and digital, and decode scrambled transmissions. And every computer has a 5.25 in floppy drive and can operate DOS programs. Sorry but even Palladium doesn't go that far. In fact there's rules for dealing with unfamiliar and alien technology.


Most energy weapons on Rifts Earth accept a common type of E-clip. Sure, there are exceptions, but that was a standard established back in the Golden Age that people have stuck with. 25 years ago, there were no common cable types to speak of, and now we have USBs and universal adapters. Computers and technology in general trends toward compatibility as time goes on, and Golden Age tech is pretty interoperable in general. In terms of radio, there are international standards that people follow even when they're not legally required to in foreign countries, because that makes the radio communications gear they sell better able to communicate. Morse Code hasn't changed and still exists in Rifts Earth (and is part of the Radio: Basic skill). There are common frequency bands and standards that people use all over the world today.

Much of that Golden Age tech is still around, in use, and still in production, both on Earth and in orbit. Radios in Rifts have ranges, but they don't have compatibility rules, which suggests to me that humanity worked out some common standards during the Golden Age and stuck with them through the dark ages. Suggesting that radios made during or based on those made during the Golden Age would be incompatible would require inventing new content and modifying the setting.


Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote:Not really as you're lumping three different groups into one. How many people are in the CS's educated elite? How many are in are in the uneducated masses in CS? How many people are outside the CS and out of that number, how many have heard of her? Just in North America? How about the rest of the world?

That's a quote from the book, not my own invention. If you want more information, read the rest of the description in CWC.


I didn't say it wasn't a quote from a book. In fact here's what is right in front of your quite.
A recent (secret) survey conducted by the CS propaganda machine headed by Joseph Prosek II, showed that within the Coalition States 96.5% of all CS citizens knew about Erin Tarn and her writings, although only 3% admitted to having personally seen one of her books.


That's kind of like everyone's heard of Clark Gable but only a few have seen his movies. Or everyone's heard of Elvis but only a few have heard him sing. Fewer have seen his movies.

Again, you're ignoring context. The next sentence states why only 3% admit to this; it'd be like being North Korean and admitting to watching Captain America.

If you saw a study that claimed "only 3% of high school boys publicly admit to having masturbated," would you interpret that to mean 97% of those boys truthfully hadn't?


Sambot wrote:
Sambot wrote:I'm not saying communication will be impossible, although accents and slang can make it seem so but it may not be that easy either. For example, what do I mean when I say, "Put the hammer down"?

We agree. There would be lingual shifts, and those shifts would not make communication impossible.

This invalidates your original argument that they wouldn't be able to understand each other.


At least you agree language will drift. That doesn't mean it'd be understood. Have you ever tried to talk to someone with a thick accent? We can't even communicate yet you think that two people separated by thousands of miles and hundreds of years are not going to have a problem? And you didn't answer my question. What do I mean when I say, "Put the hammer down"?

Sure! I've lived in Spain, England, and Iraq. It takes a little longer to work out what people with thick accents are saying, but it's doable.

"Put the hammer down" is an expression meaning to drive as fast as possible. Or it can mean to take the hammer in your hand and set it down. Kind of hard to figure out which you mean without some context.


Sambot wrote:
Sambot wrote:I don't know. What does self preservation make a people?

You call it self-preservation, I call it mass murder and a crime against humanity.


So allowing your home to be destroyed and your family and friends killed or enslaved is to be celebrated?

Nothin in published Rifts canon, including MiO, indicates that anyone from Earth has killed or enslaved anyone in orbit.
Nothing in published Rifts canon, including MiO, indicates that anyone from Earth has destroyed anything in orbit.


Sambot wrote:
Sambot wrote:Why is it that every nation on Earth can take defensive measures but very vulnerable Orbital Colonies can't? Not only is it wrong for them to do so, you condemn them for it. How does that make sense? They live in bubbles in an environment that will kill them. One monster could easily cause massive damage and loss of life and yet you think they should welcome them with open arms? :eek:

With every reply in this conversation, you have either invented or stuck to your invented supporting arguments for MiO, and in your previous reply you couched these terms with a bunch of "maybes." That's an evasive way to argue, and that's what prevaricating means.

The Orbital's homeworld and the rest of humanity still existed and still exists, they can literally see them, there is no reason why they can't communicate, Earth is abundant with air, water, and other resources the Orbitals desperately need, and the killer satellite network as described requires ludicrous amounts of effort and resources.

There's only one human nation in Rifts canon that kills everyone who tries to approach them, and that's the Orbitals. That's not "defensive measures." It's madness. The whole premise is madness. The Orbitals are hurting themselves as much as the planet with this indiscriminate killing and destruction.


I don't think we're looking at the same books. I really don't. I don't have to invent anything. It's in the book! So there aren't enough details for you. So what. The basics are in the book. Yet even when I provide quotes you ignore them. The CS would happily kill every D-Bee, magic user, and sympathizer they could to free Earth of them. They don't not because they don't have the desire but because they lack the means. Until they have the means they'll use their enemies to kill each other. Then when the greater threat is gone the weaker one will be eliminated. It's in the books.

If the people on Earth could see the Orbitals, don't you think they'd see what was destroying their spacecraft? Instead it's still a mystery. As for the Orbitals, they turned their back on Earth 250+ years ago. They're not looking or listening except to make sure the monsters and aliens stay on Earth.

As for resources, you keep saying they should go to Earth, yet they've been fine without Earth for 250+ years. They don't need the Earth. You also don't seem to care that they'd be better off cooperating with each other yet the moon is busy keeping resources from the stations.

You've also missed that 64% are mutants which aren't looked favorably on. Also 50% may not even be able to survive .6 gravity without medical assistance. How would they be able to get to Earth and back? They'd never survive lift off without some kind of really advanced technology that isn't available to them. So half the crew dies on landing, and the rest of the crew are in danger of being killed as space aliens. If they manage to survive that, 2/3 of the remaining crew are likely to be killed or imprisoned for being aliens or escaped mutants. And none of them would be able to survive lift off again. So why would they go to Earth?

Lots to unpack here.

First, I'm not ignoring your MiO quotes, I'm saying that those quotes don't justify or explain the basics of the setting MiO sets out. You accept them at face value; I don't. You either ignore the plot holes, inconsistencies, and leaps of logic they require or create whatever you need to make them work. I don't.

Second, your point about the C.S. is irrelevant. Even if the C.S. was all-powerful, they wouldn't indiscriminately kill everyone they meet. Debees, yes. Magic users, yes. Political enemies, sure. Not everyone. Only the Orbitals do that.

Your point about people on Earth being able to see the killer satellites is my point as well. You choose to accept this at face value and assume there's some explanation. I don't.

Same with the "Earth has lots of resources" argument against the Orbitals' blockade; you assume that the setting makes sense and handwave any potential issues. I don't.

Finally, according to MiO, the actual survival odds of someone from orbit surviving on Earth for a single day are on the order of 1 in a few million when you do the math. According to MiO, the odds of someone who's been living in microgravity for six months or so surviving their return to Earth are about 50%. This is demonstrably false, but I'll set that aside. There is no need for Orbitals themselves to go to the surface; they can send autonomous or remote-controlled robots down (both are a thing in MiO). The reasons for going down? Resources! Air, water, food, raw materials, et cetera are very simple to acquire on Earth, far more so than in space. Sure, getting back up into Orbit takes some serious delta-V, but that's doable with their level of technology.

Sambot wrote:
Sambot wrote:How's a satellite supposed to help without means to communicate with that satellite? You need power, which probably needs fuel. Do you contact the satellite or run the can opener?

You're making stuff up to support your position again. Radios are common tech in Rifts. They're built into environmental body armor, power armor, and robots. They're cheap and widely available. They're included in starting equipment for a great many O.C.C.'s. Cultures that can support that kind of tech aren't going to have trouble detecting and communicating with the Orbitals.


You're moving the goal posts. You don't need a satellite to survive. You need a means to provide and cook food and shelter. A satellite might help but given a choice between a satellite or a can opener I think most would choose a can opener.
I also never said that they weren't in PA, BA, vehicles or just available on their own. What I have said is that not all radios are equal nor can they pick up the signals from another.

There's more out there than hypothermia and starvation that can kill you:
"Timmy died of his injuries weeks before we finally found his body. If only he'd had an EPIRB!"
"If only we could have called that guy on a satellite phone, we could have explained the situation and averted a war!"
"The Edmund Fitzgerald II got caught in a hurricane way out at sea and sank. If only we could see those with a weather satellite!"

I would say that the people whose lives these technologies would save need them to survive.

Sambot wrote:https://www.livescience.com/33453-iss-astronauts-ham-radio.html
As mentioned above, the transceiver on board the ISS is tuned to transmit radio signals at a frequency of 145.80 MHz. "Anybody with a receiver or scanner able to tune into that frequency can listen to the space station when it's overhead," Ransom said. "It'll usually be silent, but every so often you can hear the astronauts talking to somebody."


Not every radio is going to be able to pick up that signal. The ISS is currently about 251 miles above the Earth. The closest orbital I can find is Yuro Station, 100,000 miles above the Earth. The range of radios on Earth is 500 miles.

Cool link! I especially like the part where it says "Anybody with a receiver or scanner able to tune into that frequency can listen to the space station when it's overhead."

Aside from the fact that MiO includes communications satellites in it, we already addressed the concepts of radio range in free space vs on Earth's surface.

Sambot wrote:
Sambot wrote:Why is it okay for the CS to shoot on sight but not the Orbitals? They're in a much more precarious position. And how many cultures shoot to kill for no reason? Even the Orbitals have a reason.

Your insistence that the CS shoots everyone they meet on sight despite having no evidence or reference to back that up is noted. If that's how you play the C.S., have fun with that.


I never said the CS shoots everyone on site although there is places in the books that says they will. Why do you keep putting words in my mouth and ignore the text in the books? If we're having a failure to communicate how are orbitals and grounders supposed to talk to each other?

And no, that isn't how I play the CS. My CS characters aren't quite that trigger happy. But that doesn't mean they'll let others kill them either.

I'm glad we agree that the C.S. doesn't shoot everyone else on sight like the Orbitals do. I've pressed this point because there have been several points at which you've seemed to indicate otherwise, such as the bolded text above or your first reply to this thread, when you said:
Sambot wrote:As for Earth and Orbit not working together, there's been 200+ years of separation.(snip) Considering both sides tend to shoot first and ask questions later I think anyone who got through the debris field would be shot at for being aliens and monsters.




Sambot wrote:
Sambot wrote:I didn't say I was critical of the Coalition shooting on sight nor is my post being critical of it. It's an example of the Coalition feelings after such a situation happens. Better to kill one innocent than allow hundreds of citizens to be killed. I don't agree with it. Not even all CS troopers or Orbitals agree with it. A good majority however does.

The Coalition doesn't shoot everyone on sight in canon. The Orbitals do shoot everyone on sight in canon, and any reasonable explanation of why they do this requires arguments and supporting evidence that isn't in MiO.


I'm not the one ignoring the text and inventing my own setting. It's there in the books. You just don't want to see it.

I'm happy to reject MiO's precepts and invent my own setting. You're happy to accept MiO's precepts and invent whatever's required to justify it.

If I were to distill our entire discussion down, I would characterize it this way:
Because you have to create stuff to justify MiO's setting precepts, I think MiO's setting precepts are nonsense.
Because you can create stuff to justify MiO's setting precepts, you think those setting precepts make sense.



Sambot wrote:
Sambot wrote:You ran numbers based on common satellites. Not all satellites possible. Those larger vehicles also deploy killer satellites as well as maintain them. So they would be part of the defense network.

Ok, so it takes inventing your own killer satellites to make that killer satellite network make more sense. This falls into your pattern of modifying the setting to justify the setting. Do you often play adventures in MiO? Is this your favorite part of Rifts?


No inventing required. It's there in the books. Examples given are by no means the only ones available. They're examples. Not a complete listing. That doesn't mean I'm changing the setting. Eliminating everything that isn't listed, changes the setting. Ignoring the text because you don't like it or it isn't detailed enough changes the setting.

I'm not sure I have a favorite part really. I do think it's the most overlooked setting though.

If we accept that argument, then MiO provides examples of a bunch of killer satellites but leave out the actual satellites that would have to do 99%+ of the actual shooting. That's like giving C.S. Grunts 12 vibro-knife options but forgetting to mention that they also have laser rifles.


Sambot wrote:
Sambot wrote:Just because something is based on Golden Age Weaponry does not mean that it will continue to be compatible.

Universal jacks are a thing in Rifts, and information/signal technology trends towards compatibility, not away from it. Your compatibility argument is invalid.


And USB is USB until you need a MicroUSB cable. And then it doesn't fit because you need an old MicroUSB-C cable. It's folly to assume "standard" is going to work everywhere. One person's standard is someone else's alien technology.

And universal adapters are a thing. Golden Age tech is pretty standardized in Rifts, as is tech based on it. Your radio compatibility argument requires the introduction of incompatibility issues across the entire setting, not just from ground to orbit. This issue doesn't show up anywhere in canon, so your argument is invalid.


Sambot wrote:
Sambot wrote:They don't and then they do.

I'll rephrase for you:

Real-life communications satellites don't exist to extend the range of a signal in a straight line. They exist so that we can bounce signals around obstacles, mainly the planet itself. Boosting the straight-line range of a signal is a matter of antennas, electrical power, and electronic amplifiers, and it's a lot cheaper and easier to boost that straight-line range than it is to put a satellite in orbit. Thus satellites boost range along the surface of the Earth because they go around the horizon, but you can send a signal much farther into space without using satellites at all.


In other words, they extend the range of a signal by bouncing it around corners.

You could put it that way, sure.

Sambot wrote:
So for all we know, that Satellite can't be used to communicate with the Orbitals? :| That helps how? :-?

That satellite demonstrates that communications to and from space are possible, which leads to the question of why ARCHIE is the only one who has done so.


It's possible for ARCHIE. That doesn't mean it's possible for everyone. That's like saying because there's books everyone can read.

It's like saying that more than one person should be able to read a published book.
Last edited by Hotrod on Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hotrod
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Hotrod
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Re: In Orbit of RIFTS Earth?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:How else are we supposed to call for help?


How does getting to the radio help when you just turned everyone else into lunch? Presuming of course you could even get to the radio?


How about getting on the roof and trying hand signals, waving, mirrors, lights, torches, flags, clothing, pillow sheets, etc? Writing out messages on the roof with anything you can? Seeing if the building your in has any working communications? There's all kinds of things one can do without exposing yourself and others needlessly to danger.


Oh pish. Without people like me, zombie movies would be boring.
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Re: In Orbit of RIFTS Earth?

Unread post by HWalsh »

Hey, uh guys, specifically Hot Rod... Can you cut your posts up a bit so I'm not scrolling for like a solid minute to get past the small novella that you wrote?

It's making the thread next to impossible to follow.
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Re: In Orbit of RIFTS Earth?

Unread post by Hotrod »

HWalsh wrote:Hey, uh guys, specifically Hot Rod... Can you cut your posts up a bit so I'm not scrolling for like a solid minute to get past the small novella that you wrote?

It's making the thread next to impossible to follow.

I'll do you one better and summarize!

The fundamental issue as I see it:
I dislike and reject the basic precepts of MiO, since I'd have to make up additional content to justify it.
Sambot likes and accepts the basic precepts of MiO, and he has no issue making up additional content to justify it.


Subtopics:
Human nature: I think it's unreasonable for the Orbitals to turn their back on their homeworld and species. Sambot disagrees.
Rules of Engagement: I think MiO doesn't present enough to justify the Orbitals indiscriminately killing everyone coming up the well. Sambot accepts MiO's rationale.
Observation: I think that the Orbitals would know of human societies on the surface and vice-versa through cursory observation and deliberate study with optics and radios. Sambot accepts MiO's assertion that neither knows anything about the other.
Communication: I think that the Orbitals could and would pick up radio signals and communicate with folks on the surface, and vice-versa. Sambot doesn't think they could or would.

While we've made some progress in sorting out some underlying facts, we've had no shift in either of our positions on the fundamental issue or the subtopics.
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Re: In Orbit of RIFTS Earth?

Unread post by Sambot »

Hotrod wrote:
Sambot wrote: :shock: :-? We are reading the same book, aren't we? In English? :-? There's no burden of proof fallacy or invention. It's there in the book. They watched the Earth tear itself apart. The Earth they knew is gone. The nations of origin are gone. It doesn't matter that Friendlies existed before the Rifts. What matters is what exists after the Rifts. What exists now is know one they'd know. Not that any of them would care because 300 years have passed and the people now have no connection to the nations of the past.


The Orbitals assumed that there are no friendlies down below when it's obvious that there are people down below and they have made no effort whatsoever to determine if those people are friendly or hostile.


Some how I don't think we're reading the same book. We're certainly not reading the same things.

This is what they saw when the Rifts erupted.
From their distant vantage point, it was obvious that the Earth was tearing itself apart. Tidal waves, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, massive storms, and the eruptions of blue energy tore across the planet; no place was left unscathed. Many believed these terrifying events to be the end of the world.


This was the situation after a year.
Probes sent to Earth showed a planet still in the throes of upheaval. Tremendous storms and earthquakes still rocked the land. Strange energy readings, radiation and scores of anomalies were noted everywhere. Even the space-time continuum seemed to be torn apart. The chance of survival on Earth was slim and none. Some elected to try and perished.


No where does it say that they saw survivors but even if they had there was no way to help them. Those that went to earth died. It's right there in print.
Finally, they came to grips with their situation. If Earth was denied them, so be it, their new life was to be among the stars.
Earth is gone. History. There's no going back. The only thing to do is move forward.


Sambot wrote:Are the PCs in space? Why would they want to risk going to Earth to be come some thing's lunch or plaything? Even if they managed to get to Earth how would they get anyone to believe them? Unless of course they're seen landing in which case they'll probably be met with gunfire.


How do the Orbitals reconcile their conclusion that everyone below is dead with city lights in plain sight below, radio traffic that includes unencrypted human voices speaking human languages, and active man-made structures and vehicles one can easily see from orbit? MiO doesn't even try to address this, and that is a major failing of the book. I acknowledge that it's possible to add material and explanations to make the scenario less implausible, but that shouldn't be necessary. This is a fundamental flaw in MiO as a Rifts setting.


This is the Earth from 10,000 miles. Where are the lights, and man made structures?
https://www.nasa.gov/image-feature/eart ... 0000-miles
The nearest Space Station is 100,000 miles and the sky is full of ash, energy lines, storms, etc. What lights are they supposed to be able to see? What signals are they supposed to hear?

The biggest flaw, MiO has is that it doesn't have enough details for you. But that's on you.



Sambot wrote:You seem unwilling to accept that technology not only changes but is abandoned and lost. You also seem unwilling to accept that not everything is compatible. Even when I give examples, you say I don't understand. I don't have to be able to build a radio or TV or computer or anything else to know that not everything is compatible. I can't even use my hair dryer in Europe without an adapter. But that old vacuum tube radio can receive every channel on every frequency, analog and digital, and decode scrambled transmissions. And every computer has a 5.25 in floppy drive and can operate DOS programs. Sorry but even Palladium doesn't go that far. In fact there's rules for dealing with unfamiliar and alien technology.


Most energy weapons on Rifts Earth accept a common type of E-clip. Sure, there are exceptions, but that was a standard established back in the Golden Age that people have stuck with. 25 years ago, there were no common cable types to speak of, and now we have USBs and universal adapters. Computers and technology in general trends toward compatibility as time goes on, and Golden Age tech is pretty interoperable in general. In terms of radio, there are international standards that people follow even when they're not legally required to in foreign countries, because that makes the radio communications gear they sell better able to communicate. Morse Code hasn't changed and still exists in Rifts Earth (and is part of the Radio: Basic skill). There are common frequency bands and standards that people use all over the world today.


As you said there's exceptions. And you've got 3 different types of USB connections. That I know of. If you don't have an adapter they won't work. And yes there's some commonality and bands and so on. That doesn't mean an AM radio will pick up FM signals. It doesn't mean they'll reach zillions of miles or they'd be talking over each other and no one would be able to tell what was being said.


Much of that Golden Age tech is still around, in use, and still in production, both on Earth and in orbit. Radios in Rifts have ranges, but they don't have compatibility rules, which suggests to me that humanity worked out some common standards during the Golden Age and stuck with them through the dark ages. Suggesting that radios made during or based on those made during the Golden Age would be incompatible would require inventing new content and modifying the setting.


That doesn't mean it hasn't changed. You also don't need compatibility rules to know you can't get FM with an AM radio. I don't have to invent anything for that to remain true. And there are rules for different/alien technology.

I also don't have to invent anything to know that technology gets abandoned. There's only 1 mention of videotape in Rifts Unlimited Ed and they're in a library. Audio Tapes were likewise mentioned once in the Machine Ghost ability. Everything else is disk. Audiodisks can have how many different types of audio files? Files that aren't always compatible with every player? Videodisks? LD, VCD, SVCD, DVD, HD-DVD, Blue Ray, and all kinds of other video files that can be put on disk but not played on all players. Plus there's regional encoding so they can only be played in certain regions. And ever try to play a video and not have the right codec? Don't tell me things are 100% compatible because they're not.



Sambot wrote:That's kind of like everyone's heard of Clark Gable but only a few have seen his movies. Or everyone's heard of Elvis but only a few have heard him sing. Fewer have seen his movies.

Again, you're ignoring context. The next sentence states why only 3% admit to this; it'd be like being North Korean and admitting to watching Captain America.

If you saw a study that claimed "only 3% of high school boys publicly admit to having masturbated," would you interpret that to mean 97% of those boys truthfully hadn't?


No you're ignoring the context.
In reality, an estimated 69% of the educated elite are believed to have read one or more of Miss Tarn's books, and an estimated 23% of the uneducated masses cloistered away in the fortified Coalition cities
are believed to have read or heard excerpts from her books. Double or triple that number in the Burbs and outlying territories


Those are the estimated numbers of those believed to have read her books or have been read too. Three numbers for three different groups. You're lumping different groups. You want all the population?
96.5% of all CS citizens knew about Erin Tarn and her writings.
100% of all Coalition citizens know of and recognize Emperor Karl Prosek,

Please note "knew about" and "know of and recognize" are different things.


Sambot wrote:At least you agree language will drift. That doesn't mean it'd be understood. Have you ever tried to talk to someone with a thick accent? We can't even communicate yet you think that two people separated by thousands of miles and hundreds of years are not going to have a problem? And you didn't answer my question. What do I mean when I say, "Put the hammer down"?

Sure! I've lived in Spain, England, and Iraq. It takes a little longer to work out what people with thick accents are saying, but it's doable.

"Put the hammer down" is an expression meaning to drive as fast as possible. Or it can mean to take the hammer in your hand and set it down. Kind of hard to figure out which you mean without some context.


Must have been interesting, and hot being there. And you recognize that it can be difficult to understand someone even if they're speaking the same language.

And thank you. I meant speed up. Literally putting the hammer down is another answer. So is lowering the hammer of a gun. There's probably more. Context would help but not always. Words have different meanings and that could lead to a misunderstanding can lead to blows. When you take language drift, slang, different meanings, accents, second language, etc it'd be easy to miss communicate.

I'm not saying its impossible. I'm not saying it'd totally easy. I am saying that there will be differences. It's also probably vary from person to person.


Sambot wrote:So allowing your home to be destroyed and your family and friends killed or enslaved is to be celebrated?

Nothin in published Rifts canon, including MiO, indicates that anyone from Earth has killed or enslaved anyone in orbit.
Nothing in published Rifts canon, including MiO, indicates that anyone from Earth has destroyed anything in orbit.


And yet killer satellites exist for a reason. Do we really need a list of victims?


Sambot wrote:You've also missed that 64% are mutants which aren't looked favorably on. Also 50% may not even be able to survive .6 gravity without medical assistance. How would they be able to get to Earth and back? They'd never survive lift off without some kind of really advanced technology that isn't available to them. So half the crew dies on landing, and the rest of the crew are in danger of being killed as space aliens. If they manage to survive that, 2/3 of the remaining crew are likely to be killed or imprisoned for being aliens or escaped mutants. And none of them would be able to survive lift off again. So why would they go to Earth?

Lots to unpack here.

First, I'm not ignoring your MiO quotes, I'm saying that those quotes don't justify or explain the basics of the setting MiO sets out. You accept them at face value; I don't. You either ignore the plot holes, inconsistencies, and leaps of logic they require or create whatever you need to make them work. I don't.


I don't need the level of detail that you seem to.


Second, your point about the C.S. is irrelevant. Even if the C.S. was all-powerful, they wouldn't indiscriminately kill everyone they meet. Debees, yes. Magic users, yes. Political enemies, sure. Not everyone. Only the Orbitals do that.


You're ignoring where it says they would do just that.

Your point about people on Earth being able to see the killer satellites is my point as well. You choose to accept this at face value and assume there's some explanation. I don't.


I take it to mean that those with telescopes have a hard time seeing satellites with all the light from ley lines, aurora borealis, and space debris. After all Rifts Earth is not the Earth we have now. Things aren't going to be the same.

Same with the "Earth has lots of resources" argument against the Orbitals' blockade; you assume that the setting makes sense and handwave any potential issues. I don't.

The Bank has lots of money. That doesn't mean I can access it. Handwavium isn't going to change that.


Finally, according to MiO, the actual survival odds of someone from orbit surviving on Earth for a single day are on the order of 1 in a few million when you do the math. According to MiO, the odds of someone who's been living in microgravity for six months or so surviving their return to Earth are about 50%. This is demonstrably false, but I'll set that aside. There is no need for Orbitals themselves to go to the surface; they can send autonomous or remote-controlled robots down (both are a thing in MiO). The reasons for going down? Resources! Air, water, food, raw materials, et cetera are very simple to acquire on Earth, far more so than in space. Sure, getting back up into Orbit takes some serious delta-V, but that's doable with their level of technology.


Actually, I think they're being generous at 50%. It is a fact that those in space suffer bone and muscle loss among other problems. I'm going to presume after several hundred years humans adapted so those problems aren't. At least as long as they're in space. They're not going to have a good time on Earth. They'll be even less happy trying to leave it. Just being on Earth is going to be an incredible stress on their bodies. Trying to leave...

https://www.universetoday.com/20338/wei ... 3%20pounds.
Your weight on the Moon is 16.5% what you would experience on Earth. In other words, if you weighed 100 kg on Earth, you would weigh a mere 16.5 kg on the Moon. For you imperial folks, imagine you tipped the scales at 200 pounds. Your weight on the Moon would only be 33 pounds.

https://books.google.com/books?id=LqZcS ... DXoECBQQAQ
Astronauts experiencing 4g during launch would feel five times heavier due to the


So a Moon Colonist will be more than 6 times heavier on Earth and then that weight increases 5 times getting into orbit. So they'd be 11 times heavier trying to get into space? Why take that risk? And yes, they could try robotics, but are the Orbitals capable of escape velocity? I'm not sure any of the 5 Drive Types available can go that fast. And why go when the resources are there in space?



Sambot wrote:You're moving the goal posts. You don't need a satellite to survive. You need a means to provide and cook food and shelter. A satellite might help but given a choice between a satellite or a can opener I think most would choose a can opener.
I also never said that they weren't in PA, BA, vehicles or just available on their own. What I have said is that not all radios are equal nor can they pick up the signals from another.

There's more out there than hypothermia and starvation that can kill you:
"Timmy died of his injuries weeks before we finally found his body. If only he'd had an EPIRB!"
"If only we could have called that guy on a satellite phone, we could have explained the situation and averted a war!"
"The Edmund Fitzgerald II got caught in a hurricane way out at sea and sank. If only we could see those with a weather satellite!"

I would say that the people whose lives these technologies would save need them to survive.


And if Columbus had GPS he wouldn't have gotten lost and found the "New World"
All that presumes there are satellites. Most of the satellites that Earth could talk to were destroyed. Out of those that were left it'd be surprising if there were a lot still functioning. ARCHIE 3's managed to use one satellite. Yet it seems like you think everyone should have satellite communications. That skill isn't even offered in Rifts.


Sambot wrote:Not every radio is going to be able to pick up that signal. The ISS is currently about 251 miles above the Earth. The closest orbital I can find is Yuro Station, 100,000 miles above the Earth. The range of radios on Earth is 500 miles.

Cool link! I especially like the part where it says "Anybody with a receiver or scanner able to tune into that frequency can listen to the space station when it's overhead."

Aside from the fact that MiO includes communications satellites in it, we already addressed the concepts of radio range in free space vs on Earth's surface.


Thanks. You will not that you'd need a radio that can receive those frequencies. Not every radio is. You'll also note that the time was also limited to 10 minuets and that they only tried 45 times a year. Probably more by appointment. That really narrows down those that can hear those in space to those that get lucky or have an appointment.




Sambot wrote:And no, that isn't how I play the CS. My CS characters aren't quite that trigger happy. But that doesn't mean they'll let others kill them either.

I'm glad we agree that the C.S. doesn't shoot everyone else on sight like the Orbitals do. I've pressed this point because there have been several points at which you've seemed to indicate otherwise, such as the bolded text above or your first reply to this thread, when you said:
Sambot wrote:As for Earth and Orbit not working together, there's been 200+ years of separation.(snip) Considering both sides tend to shoot first and ask questions later I think anyone who got through the debris field would be shot at for being aliens and monsters.


It is the CS policy to shoot first. They've temporarily set that aside as they're in a war and very stretched. Before then it was individual troopers who decided not to shoot. And if they had a "shoot first" person in their mist, especially above them in rank, they could be in trouble.


Sambot wrote:I'm not the one ignoring the text and inventing my own setting. It's there in the books. You just don't want to see it.

I'm happy to reject MiO's precepts and invent my own setting. You're happy to accept MiO's precepts and invent whatever's required to justify it.

If I were to distill our entire discussion down, I would characterize it this way:
Because you have to create stuff to justify MiO's setting precepts, I think MiO's setting precepts are nonsense.
Because you can create stuff to justify MiO's setting precepts, you think those setting precepts make sense.


I don't have to justify the setting precepts or create stuff. There's enough there to play and that lack of "details" given allows each game to be different. I wouldn't mind some more but I know that the more details there are the more they narrow what I can do in canon.

On the other hand, you have a problem with the lack of details. You've complained about them loud and clear. You also ignore what you don't like. I've shown you the CS policy and why they've suspended it. Yet you've changed the suspension as "always was.". Which is fine for your games. I do the same. But that isn't how it is in canon. For the CS the enemy of my enemy is my enemy. As soon as they are no longer useful, they'll be eliminated.




Sambot wrote:
I'm not sure I have a favorite part really. I do think it's the most overlooked setting though.

If we accept that argument, then MiO provides examples of a bunch of killer satellites but leave out the actual satellites that would have to do 99%+ of the actual shooting. That's like giving C.S. Grunts 12 vibro-knife options but forgetting to mention that they also have laser rifles.


Not really. It's more like giving the NGR a navy but no OCCs for it. :-?



Sambot wrote:And USB is USB until you need a MicroUSB cable. And then it doesn't fit because you need an old MicroUSB-C cable. It's folly to assume "standard" is going to work everywhere. One person's standard is someone else's alien technology.

And universal adapters are a thing. Golden Age tech is pretty standardized in Rifts, as is tech based on it. Your radio compatibility argument requires the introduction of incompatibility issues across the entire setting, not just from ground to orbit. This issue doesn't show up anywhere in canon, so your argument is invalid.


If everyone used the same thing, there wouldn't need to be adapters.



Sambot wrote:In other words, they extend the range of a signal by bouncing it around corners.

You could put it that way, sure.


Thank you.


Sambot wrote:It's possible for ARCHIE. That doesn't mean it's possible for everyone. That's like saying because there's books everyone can read.

It's like saying that more than one person should be able to read a published book.
[/quote]

:| :| :| :| Are you saying they should share? It would be nice if they did. Not everyone is that nice though.


Hotrod wrote:Oh pish. Without people like me, zombie movies would be boring.


Zombies are quite exciting enough without having someone going and opening the door to them.
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Re: In Orbit of RIFTS Earth?

Unread post by taalismn »

Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:Oh pish. Without people like me, zombie movies would be boring.


Zombies are quite exciting enough without having someone going and opening the door to them.


Don't mind me or the heavy smell of napalm. It's just my zombie repellent.
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Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
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Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

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Re: In Orbit of RIFTS Earth?

Unread post by Sambot »

HWalsh wrote:Hey, uh guys, specifically Hot Rod... Can you cut your posts up a bit so I'm not scrolling for like a solid minute to get past the small novella that you wrote?

It's making the thread next to impossible to follow.


Sorry about that. :( I have been trying to trim it down.

Hotrod wrote:I'll do you one better and summarize!


In other words.

The fundamental issue as I see it: Hotrod wants everything detailed out and isn't happy when things are unknown or vague.
I don't mind filling in the blanks as it gives more options in my games.

Subtopics:
Human nature: Hotrod think Orbitals should have kept trying to get to Earth even though all attempts ended in death.
I think the Orbitals watched their planet tear itself apart, realized there was no going back, and focused on making space their new home.
Rules of Engagement: Hotrod wants more details.
I'm okay with being able to use anything I want.
Observation: Hotrod wants Orbitals to work with those on Earth.
I think at 100,000 plus miles away they're not going to see anything. The picture on page 33 of Rifts Ultimate Editions would seem to bare that out.
Communication: Hotrod seems to think communications never should have been lost as if the Rifts never happened.
I think the Rifts happened, screwed up everything, caused lots of loss of life, knowledge, and technology, major changes in landscape, and unleashed all kinds of terrors. With all that I don't think their party realizes the other still exists.




taalismn wrote:
Sambot wrote:
Hotrod wrote:Oh pish. Without people like me, zombie movies would be boring.


Zombies are quite exciting enough without having someone going and opening the door to them.


Don't mind me or the heavy smell of napalm. It's just my zombie repellent.


LOL :-D
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Re: In Orbit of RIFTS Earth?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Sambot wrote:
HWalsh wrote:Hey, uh guys, specifically Hot Rod... Can you cut your posts up a bit so I'm not scrolling for like a solid minute to get past the small novella that you wrote?

It's making the thread next to impossible to follow.


Sorry about that. :( I have been trying to trim it down.

Hotrod wrote:I'll do you one better and summarize!


In other words.

The fundamental issue as I see it: Hotrod wants everything detailed out and isn't happy when things are unknown or vague.
I don't mind filling in the blanks as it gives more options in my games.

Subtopics:
Human nature: Hotrod think Orbitals should have kept trying to get to Earth even though all attempts ended in death.
I think the Orbitals watched their planet tear itself apart, realized there was no going back, and focused on making space their new home.
Rules of Engagement: Hotrod wants more details.
I'm okay with being able to use anything I want.
Observation: Hotrod wants Orbitals to work with those on Earth.
I think at 100,000 plus miles away they're not going to see anything. The picture on page 33 of Rifts Ultimate Editions would seem to bare that out.
Communication: Hotrod seems to think communications never should have been lost as if the Rifts never happened.
I think the Rifts happened, screwed up everything, caused lots of loss of life, knowledge, and technology, major changes in landscape, and unleashed all kinds of terrors. With all that I don't think their party realizes the other still exists.


I was genuinely trying to represent our positions as neutrally as possible and show some respect for where you're coming from with my summary. Your summary is a bunch of strawman arguments smothered with scorn. I had hoped this conversation might go somewhere and we might find some common ground, or at least come to a place of mutual respect for each others' positions. Now I don't see that happening, so I'm done with this conversation.

Have fun with MiO.
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Re: In Orbit of RIFTS Earth?

Unread post by Orin J. »

Hotrod wrote:I was genuinely trying to represent our positions as neutrally as possible-


just wanna let you know you failed in that regard, i thought you were taking potshots at them myself.
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Re: In Orbit of RIFTS Earth?

Unread post by Hotrod »

Orin J. wrote:
Hotrod wrote:I was genuinely trying to represent our positions as neutrally as possible-


just wanna let you know you failed in that regard, i thought you were taking potshots at them myself.

All the more reason for me to walk away then. Seems I failed to do anything constructive here.
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Re: In Orbit of RIFTS Earth?

Unread post by Sambot »

Hotrod wrote:
I was genuinely trying to represent our positions as neutrally as possible and show some respect for where you're coming from with my summary. Your summary is a bunch of strawman arguments smothered with scorn. I had hoped this conversation might go somewhere and we might find some common ground, or at least come to a place of mutual respect for each others' positions. Now I don't see that happening, so I'm done with this conversation.

Have fun with MiO.


I appreciate that you were trying to e neutral. I was too and I suspect we both failed since it did feel like you were taking pot shots at me. Even with this post you insist I'm making strawman arguments smothered in scorn. That's not really neutral. Plus, you ignore the canon because you don't like it as it goes against your faith in humanity. It doesn't matter what text I provide or even if its a picture. If it goes against what you believe you ignore it. I'm glad you have such faith in humanity. It doesn't change canon though.

I also get that you want more details. I wouldn't mind more myself. Especially, when it comes to availability of OCCs/MOSs and special training. Canon doesn't change though because we want more or don't like what we've got. Of course the nice thing about RPGs is that we don't have to stick with canon. We're free to modify the game as we like. And sometimes, the lack of details even helps in this regard. It still won't change canon, but it doesn't have to.

So have fun with your games and keep believing in humanity cause it needs it.
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Re: In Orbit of RIFTS Earth?

Unread post by Prysus »

Sambot wrote:Even with this post you insist I'm making strawman arguments smothered in scorn. That's not really neutral.

Greetings and Salutations. I've been following this for a while. I was planning to just let the thread die but now I'm curious about a couple things.

1: What about Hotrod's post made you (and/or Orin J.) that he was taking pot shots at you? For the most part he stated his stances, and that you disagreed with him. As far as I could tell, his post was more or less accurate. If I missed something, I'm curious as both a learning experience as well as to see if I missed or misunderstood something. If it's simply tone though (as that's something I've seen claimed in general before), then consider tone in text form is generally what we the readers add into it.

Sambot wrote:Human nature: Hotrod think Orbitals should have kept trying to get to Earth even though all attempts ended in death.
[snip]
Communication: Hotrod seems to think communications never should have been lost as if the Rifts never happened.

On the other hand, from what I've observed, Hotrod has not made either of these claims. So one of us is mistaken (since he said you made a straw man, I don't think it's me), or you intentionally misrepresented his side.

Human Nature: If you think the only options are to land on Earth personally or to never communicate with it again, there are more options than that very binary choice.

Communication: His stance hasn't been that we shouldn't act as if Rifts never happened. But it's been approximately 250 years since. There are places that never lost their Golden Age tech. The Coalition has recovered to about that level. Rifts is, at this point (mentioned by fans and even Kevin), more of a post-post apocalyptic setting at this point. Rifts is also designed to be widely compatible. That's why people can be Rifter from the past and still communicate, find ancient books and videos and understand them, and even Phase World has the equivalent of English/American where you can communicate with minimal difficulty. Phase World still has e-clips and ...

Err ... Sorry, I didn't really come here to argue the points themselves. But I wanted to point out the actual false stance you applied to his arguments. If you feel he did the same, then I'm curious to which parts you felt he got wrong. Farewell and safe journeys.
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Re: In Orbit of RIFTS Earth?

Unread post by Sambot »

Prysus wrote:
Sambot wrote:Even with this post you insist I'm making strawman arguments smothered in scorn. That's not really neutral.

Greetings and Salutations. I've been following this for a while. I was planning to just let the thread die but now I'm curious about a couple things.

1: What about Hotrod's post made you (and/or Orin J.) that he was taking pot shots at you? For the most part he stated his stances, and that you disagreed with him. As far as I could tell, his post was more or less accurate. If I missed something, I'm curious as both a learning experience as well as to see if I missed or misunderstood something. If it's simply tone though (as that's something I've seen claimed in general before), then consider tone in text form is generally what we the readers add into it.


Hello, Hope you're doing well.

There's been several times where Hotrod has put words in my mouth and completely disregarded canon. For example the CS's policy of shooting. I've stated what it was, even provided quotes and why it's been temporarily suspended. Hotrod refuses to believe this though.

There was also his Satellites do and don't extend range thing. At least we got that sorted.



Sambot wrote:Human nature: Hotrod think Orbitals should have kept trying to get to Earth even though all attempts ended in death.
[snip]
Communication: Hotrod seems to think communications never should have been lost as if the Rifts never happened.

On the other hand, from what I've observed, Hotrod has not made either of these claims. So one of us is mistaken (since he said you made a straw man, I don't think it's me), or you intentionally misrepresented his side.


I didn't say he did but sure it does feel like that's how he thinks. He certainly seems to believe that there was no reason for the orbitals to turn their back on Earth, even though the book clearly says why. He also constantly insists that they should be able to communicate and that they should even see city lights from space in spite of the evidence to the contrary. Also if there were any communications with Earth, that would have been mentioned. Space wouldn't be a mystery to those on Earth and those in Space would know that there were survivors. That says there was no communications. The picture of Earth from space shows there's no city lights to see.

Human Nature: If you think the only options are to land on Earth personally or to never communicate with it again, there are more options than that very binary choice.


The tried non human means. All the probes showed was destruction. Those in Orbit need to see to their own needs. Why waste the resources trying to get them from a hostile area when they could get those resources from space? And that was then. MiO has them on the brink of war with each other. One of the South America books has a Fleet of Aliens attacking before being driven off to Mars so there's that threat. They don't have the resources to go to Earth. Not that sending robots would help their cause any with the people of Earth. Nor would going be good for their own health.


Communication: His stance hasn't been that we shouldn't act as if Rifts never happened. But it's been approximately 250 years since. There are places that never lost their Golden Age tech. The Coalition has recovered to about that level. Rifts is, at this point (mentioned by fans and even Kevin), more of a post-post apocalyptic setting at this point. Rifts is also designed to be widely compatible. That's why people can be Rifter from the past and still communicate, find ancient books and videos and understand them, and even Phase World has the equivalent of English/American where you can communicate with minimal difficulty. Phase World still has e-clips and ...


I didn't say he believes Rifts never happened, but it sure seems that way as he ignores the text and art saying the contrary. Also while some things can be very similar, and even descended from a common origin, that doesn't make them the same. I've said many times that there's language drift, slang, accents and such that will make communications more difficult. There's even skills for those things. There's also rules for bringing people from the past or from different tech levels. If things were that easy those rules and skills wouldn't exist. Even the printed word can be difficult to read. And that's for those who are literate. Written can be even more so. I can't even read my own writing half the time. Having to read someone else's words, filled with jargon, and language drift could be even more difficult.

There's also rules for technology and how it's changes. That doesn't mean it can't be figured out. That doesn't mean there won't be someone who can access it. It does mean that not everyone can. Kevin knew technology wouldn't be the same. That's why he provided rules for differences in technology. Think about it. How many people have the equipment to read a 5.25 in floppy? A laserdisc? A Beta Video? 8-Track? 8mm film? A Region 4 DVD? I would guess not many. Can they still be read? Certainly. But your average person isn't going to have the means to do so. You'd have to go to a specialist.


Err ... Sorry, I didn't really come here to argue the points themselves. But I wanted to point out the actual false stance you applied to his arguments. If you feel he did the same, then I'm curious to which parts you felt he got wrong. Farewell and safe journeys.


So no. My stance isn't false. He said I do believe something. I said it seems like he does. I've also pointed out where he's ignoring canon because he disagrees with it. I can't say I like it either. I hope mankind would be better than that. But that's canon. Like I've said, we don't have to stick with canon, in our games. We're free to do what we want. But if we're going to discuss the books we can't ignore canon, no matter how detailed it is.