Sambot wrote:Hotrod wrote:
True but it still takes some infrastructure.
Do you seriously think that people who are actively designing and manufacturing power armor, cyborgs, juicers, giant robots, environmental body armor, and mega damage energy weapons are going to have problems putting together and operating a radio?
Sure they have a radio but what kind of radio? Not everything broadcasts on everything. Would such an advanced society broadcast on an older platform? Would anyone living in the CS, FQ, NGR, or other advanced country know how to use a telephone? A Rotatory one? How about an old radio where you have to push a button to talk and let it go to listen? Can you go to Western Union and send a telegram? Remember Star Trek IV when Mr. Scott tried to use the computer to show transparent Aluminum?
"Hello Computer. Computer?"
"Just use the keyboard!"
"Keyboard. How quaint."
Or third new Star Trek movie where the girl has to hook up her player to the ships com system because its too retro for Scotty to do it? Or the last episode of Battlestar Galactica where they get a signal from Earth on an old outdated frequency they don't use any more on the only part of a ship that could pick it up?
Technology changes. Old TVs are useless without a converter box because they're analog and the signal is digital. Really old ones would need a an adapter on top of the converter because they don't have the single cable in but separate UHV and VHF connections. So yes it is entirely possible that different societies may not be able to communicate over a distance because their technology isn't compatible. Can they adapt? Sure. If they have a reason to. Right now I'm not sure either those on Earth or in Orbit have a reason to.
They would have every reason to. Both people on Earth and in Orbit are in a state of perpetual threat and conflict, and having the ability to listen in on communications is a decisive factor in any conflict.
Sambot wrote:Sambot wrote:Considering things that come out of the rifts keep trying to kill, enslave or possess them I wouldn't say they're without evidence.
That's not what MiO says the Orbitals' probes saw. They saw some nasty conditions, assumed nothing could survive, and decided to blockade Earth indefinitely.
That's exactly what MiO says. Reread the first paragraph about The Containment of Earth page 61.
"Horrific beings that one can only call monsters""mutants, aliens, and the last vestiges of the human race.""New menaces and monsters are regularly unleashed into the world"
And on p57: "Probes sent to Earth... The chance of survival on Earth was slim and none."
Frankly, whether you interpret MiO either way, it doesn't work for me. Either they're blind to the existence of human civilization on Earth, in which case they're morons, or they've decided to screw over their own species and home planet, in which case they're awful.
Sambot wrote:Sambot wrote:That's good. I've lost signal because the wind changed direction or a cloud flew over.
It's far more probable that your antenna leaned a different way with the wind and/or some
nearby conductor or ground either started interfering destructively or stopped interfering constructively.
Not really. We lost some channels when things went digital and the picture would get really pixally if not go completely out during a storm. When things were analog we only lost the channels that were far away and already staticy during big storms.
Note the added bit on a conductor nearby. Storms interfere with radio signals because of lightning, not because of clouds. Lightning is electrical movement along corridors of conductivity in the air.
Sambot wrote:Sambot wrote:I don't know if all Orbitals hold onto those beliefs. I do think most do. The killer satellites exist for a reason. Because things from Earth keep coming up to kill them. Otherwise why are they there? Giggles?
Pretty much, yeah. The killer satellites are there because the author says they're there, and the motives the author gives make about as much sense to me as giggles.
I think wanting to containing monsters and other threats makes sense to me.
Me too! If they want to blockade Atlantis, the Archons, and some other invaders, that makes plenty of sense. Including all humans on Earth in that blockade doesn't.
Sambot wrote:Sambot wrote:You said it yourself. "Such launches would be large-scale investments." They're also quite busy fighting for survival. Both the CS and Triax tried many times and failed. They've since given up and have focused on closer concerns. And if they could see the Space Stations, they'd be able to see the satellites shooting down their spacecraft. Since they don't know what causes their destruction I'd guess they can't.
Please explain how you reconcile these two statements
1. Several nations on Rifts Earth have put a lot of effort into launching major satellites because they want to get into space.
2. They had no idea what was up there despite several of them having ample historical evidence, because looking any of that up would take too much work.
1. What's to reconcile? They wanted to. They kept failing. They gave up. Now they've got other things to keep them occupied.
2. Historical evidence is just that, Historical. It is not currant evidence. They used to know what was up there. They have no idea what is up there now.
You're shifting goalposts here. You stated that the nations who want to go to space would be too busy fighting for survival to look up basics on history. Now you're saying that these nations all think history has nothing to do with the present.
Sambot wrote:Sambot wrote:They've made them so because no one who tried to go to Earth ever came back. They made them so because things from Earth keep trying to kill them. Again, there is a reason why the Killer Satellite Network exists.
I'm not saying that MiO gave no reason. I'm saying that the reason it gave is terrible, nonsensical, and internally inconsistent with the setting.
How is it inconsistent? They see horrible things coming out of rifts killing people and since they can't eliminate them they move to contain them. The only difference between the orbitals and those on Earth is that the Orbitals seem to be better able to contain the monsters and that there doesn't seem to be as many places in space where the monsters can rift into.
No nation on Earth shoots everyone else on sight. 'That's not "monster containment." It's a perpetual act of war upon their own home planet, a home planet where the only powers we know of who have tried to get into orbit are humans.
Sambot wrote:Sambot wrote:I don't think either of us has had a demon or some other monster come out of a rift and try to eat, enslave, or possess us either. So we can be reasonably sure that the person on the other end of the message is a human. At least I'm pretty sure I'm human. Would I know if I were possessed or under someone's mind control powers?
By that logic, everyone in Rifts would shoot everyone else on sight. That's not a thing in Rifts. Your argument is invalid.
I never said everyone. Obviously some don't automatically shoot on sight. Some turn a blind eye if they're shooting at the bigger more dangerous monster too. For all I know there are people in communications with each other. Officially though, it doesn't happen. And getting officials to change policy very difficult.
Getting them to enact this insane policy in the first place should have been impossible. How exactly did that multinational summit go? "Hey, screw our homeworld! Let's dedicate nearly all our resources to maintaining the debris field and hundreds of thousands of killer satellites that shoot down any of those peons who decide to come join us, even if they have things we desperately need like air, water, and materials! All in favor?"
I get this vibe in MiO that this policy was unanimously adopted as the obvious and logical solution. It strikes me as something that you'd get out of a HAL-9000 computer that's gone bonkers.
Sambot wrote:Sambot wrote:From Heros of Humanity pages 149-150. The underlined is mine.
Those who have visited the city-state
of Northern Gun have an idea of what this is like, but Coalition
defenses and patrols border on the paranoid, and intruders are
met with immediate and unrelenting deadly force. As a rule, CS
city defenders shoot first and don't worry about asking questions
later. If the people gunned down were innocent and happened to
have wandered into the no man's zone by accident, it is of little
consequence to the city defenders. Anyone in the defensive zone
is considered a threat and liability that is neutralized with extreme
prejudice. Again, it is that better safe than sorry policy. This may
all sound ruthless and cold-hearted, but it has kept Coalition cities
and their citizens safe for decades.
You're taking that quote way out of context. That passage is talking about
intruders inside Coalition fortified cities like Chi-Town, as in people who have used magic or something to bypass security and enter. That passage is
not talking about anyone walking up to the front gate.
I'm sure there's more. That's just the most recent place I've read it. Plus the quote doesn't say anything about inside. If they're inside they got past the defenders. Not a good thing when it comes to monsters and such that want to kill those inside.
MiO page 61
When an alien vessel or being is discovered, they immediately attack, with hopes to destroy them or force a hasty retreat (extermination is preferred).
There
is more;
that's my whole point! Read the whole paragraph you're quoting from Heroes of Humanity. Read all of page 149 and page 150. It's all focused on Coalition fortress cities and how they're designed to prevent infiltration. Did you just do a CTRL-F in a PDF of a Rifts book that focuses on the Coalition, search for "shoot first," and then copy and paste from a PDF?
Please, though, keep on looking. I'd like to see a single quote anywhere outside of MiO describing a Rifts Earth culture that shoots everyone else on sight without warning.
Sambot wrote:Sambot wrote:Note: The enemy includes anything alien, monstrous, and
supernatural, including vehicles, missiles, satellites, bots, and people
from the Coalition States and Triax, and even humans originating from
Earth.
Again, you're arguing from a conclusion. I'm saying that their approach doesn't make sense. You seem to be saying "but it does make sense, because that's their approach."
Quoting the nonsense doesn't make it valid.
So the policy of kill first and ask questions later, maybe, is nonsense but waiting to see if the big scary thing rips your throat out does.
Waiting and seeing might work for Agent J but most people open fire.
Shooting everyone you meet is bad, mmkay? If we can't agree on this then we don't have a basis for rational discussion.
Sambot wrote:Sambot wrote:I wouldn't drop an asteroid though. It'd be too much trouble.
Doing the mining, ore refinement, manufacturing, emplacement, command, coordination, and maintenance of hundreds of thousands of satellites is reasonable, but nudging an asteroid into a collision course with Earth is too much trouble?
Weapons have a range of...? They don't need to cover every square mile. Just enough to have overlapping fire. plus they could just throw garbage out. Little bits of stuff traveling thousands of miles an hour is going to cause damage. I also think it'd be a lot more effort than just a nudge.
The ranges are provided in MiO, and they're laughably short. 12,000 feet (2 miles) for a particle beam, 60,000 feet (10 miles) for a single-shot old x-ray laser, 2-3 miles for other laser and rail gun satellites, 2 miles for kinetic kill and brilliant pebbles satellites.
Sambot wrote:Sambot wrote:I've never heard of it and I don't have Amazon Prime.
The first book is called "Leviathan Wakes," and most public libraries have it. My local library also has the series on DVD.
Good to know. Maybe after the beer bug is over with libraries will open up again so I can check it out.
It's also available on Kindle, and a lot of libraries have a kindle lending program.
Sambot wrote:Sambot wrote:An update would probably include some revision. Even if it isn't I'd be happy with another Rifts Space book. And maybe it would include a breakthrough in communications. Maybe some small division of the CS or Triax is willing to try to get into space again?
The revision would have to be pretty darn drastic to get me piqued at this point. The only thing I like without reservation about MiO is the cover.
The cover is pretty cool.
To be fair, there is some nice-looking interior art, but the good stuff seems more like some Kittani creation cut from Atlantis than anything else, which is another symptom of the book's biggest problem from a production perspective: it lacks coherence and focus, largely due to its dual-setting approach.
Sambot wrote:Sambot wrote:And sure they would. Maybe. What are they broadcasting? Analog? Digital? Some thing else? Just because a signal is broadcast doesn't mean it can be listened to.
Yes, in fact, broadcasting a signal does mean that it can be listened to; that's what broadcasting is. Now, if you only want certain people to listen to it, there are steps you can take to encrypt it, but encryption can be broken. In-game, that's why Radio: Scramblers exists. This is a real-life thing; too: signals intelligence is a thing.
Not if you don't have the means to do so. Again, I can't get FM with an AM radio or AM with an FM radio or Digital channels on an Analog TV. I can't get Dish with Direct TV. And just having a skill does not mean one is capable of doing something. There's languages now that people still have not been able to translate. Even with super computers. Why should the future be different?
Heck, you're not even describing the present. People can and do hack into Dish, Direct TV, XM satellite radio, and just about every kind of broadcast out there, and they especially do this with potential adversaries. Just because this is beyond you doesn't mean it isn't a thing.
As for the languages, we've covered this. The languages presented in MiO are much the same as in Rifts Earth. Your assertions to the contrary would help your position that the setting described in the book makes sense, but they require you to change the setting described in the book.
Sambot wrote:Sambot wrote:And yet satellites are there to extend the range of a signal. The Military and other agencies also do their best to make sure other's can't listen in and understand what they're saying. And yes trying to listen in to others. Doesn't mean they can. Especially if technology isn't compatible.
Real-life communications satellites aren't in to extend the range of a signal; it's actually quite easy to boost signal strength at a distance through electronic amplifiers and antennas, and it's far, far cheaper than putting satellites in orbit. Satellites are there so that you can relay signals around a big old planet that tends to get in the way of line-of-sight transmission at a distance.
You'd probably be amazed how often real militaries use un-encrypted communications.
Why say they don't and then tell me they do?
I'm sure they do a lot. I'm also sure there's a lot of encrypted too.
I'm not sure what you're asking here. The curvature of Earth prevents us from broadcasting line-of-sight past 30 miles or so. If you put your transmitter in a tower, your signal will reach farther. Satellites do the same thing, but from much higher up.
When you are communicating between points that are already way up in space, you don't have to worry so much about the Earth getting in the way. Those same transmissions that can only go 30 miles or so on Earth go up a lot farther into space.
Sambot wrote:Sambot wrote:How much fuel would be needed to send an extinction sized asteroid earth's way? How big an engine? How many ships would be needed to deliver all that? And if the stations can be seen why wouldn't the asteroid?
If mining asteroids is a thing, crashing said asteroids into Earth is likely to take significantly less work, propellant, and hassle. You don't need a lot of ships.
Mining can be done with one ship at the asteroid. Getting the supplies needed to put in maneuvering thrusters to move the asteroid to the Earth at killer speed? I think it'd take more than one.
That depends on the type of thruster you use. You can get a lot of velocity built up over several years using an ion engine. You could also use gravity off another large planetary mass to boost your speed without using a thruster at all.
Sambot wrote:As for "why wouldn't they see the asteroid," you're moving the goalposts. The premise in MiO is that folks on the ground have no idea what's up in space, and vice-versa. I'm arguing that that premise is preposterous. If you're abandoning your defense of that premise to argue that people on Earth would be able to see the Orbitals bring a big rock to collide with Earth, then you're effectively agreeing with me that the premise of MiO is nonsensical, in which case, I wholeheartedly agree!
Those on Earth don't know what's in space. Those in space know what's on Earth. It's in the book. And your premise is that they can see each other, then those on the ground could not only see the killer satellites, and shoot them down, but they'd also see an asteroid being aimed at them.
As for those on Earth, there may be some who can see what's in space with telescopes, as well as some psychics and maybe some others. Getting others to believe them is another issue. "There's an asteroid coming that will kill all life on Earth. Okay. What's an asteroid?"
My point that people in orbit and on Earth can see and signal each other is backed up by the ARCHIE-3 satellite being a thing, as well as the fact that the probes the Orbitals have sent to Earth sent back any data at all.
Seeing asteroids coming in from deep space is a lot harder than looking for stuff that's in orbit. We never saw the
Chelyabinsk meteor coming in 2013, and that sucker could have pasted a city.
Sambot wrote:Hotrod wrote:Borast wrote:The orbitals want to quarantine the planet, not wipe it out.
Why, though? They see the Earth as a threat and regard anything trying to come out of it as an enemy. They have no plan or intention of lifting the blockade. A blockade is difficult and costly, far more so than dropping rocks on Earth. This is a plot hole wide enough to drop a dinosaur-killing rock through.
You need an asteroid big enough to end all life on Earth. That's pretty massive and will need a lot of resources to redirect. And it still won't stop monsters from coming out of rifts. It'd also risk throwing debris out into space where it can be a threat. So I don't see how it'd help.
True, an asteroid-pasting effort would require a lot of resources, though far less than the killer satellite network. True, it wouldn't stop monsters from coming out of the Rifts, though it's a tiny fraction of those monsters who are capable of making orbit. True, it would throw a lot of debris up, but it couldn't do so in a way that would put that debris into orbit; you need too much lateral velocity. Thus any debris that goes up would just come back down (unless it achieved escape velocity, in which case it would just fly out into the big empty).
In effect, it would destroy the capabilities of pretty much everyone on Earth from coming up into orbit for a long, long time and render the planet effectively uninhabitable for most living creatures.
Understand, I'm not saying that this is what Kevin should do with the setting; it's just a thought experiment that points out the ludicrous logic of MiO and the Orbital's blockade.