Changes in dragons for Rifts is because of movie licensing?

[ghost2020]

On Facebook in one of the forums, someone had posted that the changes for the dragons in Rifts is because of the movie licensing.
that nothing from palladium fantasy can appear in any rifts books because that would cause issues with the licensing and the movie option.

That's why all the dragons in Rifts were changed, and why subsequent sourcebooks had to be updated to match that.

Any truth to this?

[DhAkael]

Sad but true. I.P. licensing is so [censored]-up that yeah, KS had to do that. 99% of people NOT in the industry (re; humanity) think that is assinine and absurd and downright pig-ignornat STUPID... but 'Lawyers'. So, yeah.

[ghost2020]

Damn.
Well IP law is nuts, I've heard stories about it from attorneys at my lawfirm. I get that movie and creative stuff can get snarly.

[Jorick]

It's the Quicksilver issue from the Marvel movies. Or, more specifically, the definition of "mutant" in the license to Fox (when Fox was its own thing) and what the exclusive license to all things "mutant" includes. If Fox has an exclusive license to "mutant" then can Disney use Quicksilver?

Fox and Disney can fight about it (or buy each other). Palladium, on the other hand, cant really out-negotiate Disney. It has to protect its options in other ways. In this case (and any other cases), if Palladium wants to license "Rifts" to somebody, and still be able to license the fantasy stuff to someone else, they have to at least try to show that they keep the two things distinct. Otherwise, Disney, in licensing Rifts, licenses everything, and the terms of the license probably exclude anyone else from making a movie with anything they licensed.

Clearly, there is a lot of overlap between Rifts and Fantasy and the rest of the Palladium stuff. If someone comes up with a cool Fantasy movie idea that they can make tomorrow, and Disney is still sleeping on the Rifts movie, Palladium will obviously lose a lot of money if it isn't allowed to make that Fantasy movie. By keeping terms distinct, even by showing effort (such as making new dragons for Rifts) to make the two properties distinct (and subsequently, having any Fantasy script stick to those distinct terms), Palladium has some argument to escape the crushing legal power of Disney.

[slade the sniper]

What changed? Dragon stuff from Rifts first edition changed? Are you talking about the dragons in the main book being different than the ones in the Ultimate Edition?

-STS

[Jorick]

:?
Are you talking about the dragons in the main book being different than the ones in the Ultimate Edition?

-STS

Yes. The change in question was the creation of new dragon species, ostensibly to differentiate Rifts dragons from Fantasy dragons.

There does now seem to be some overlap in Savage Rifts (great horned dragon, perhaps because of Plato of Lazlo, which illustrates the difficulty of separating the two universes), but most of the savage Rifts dragon types stick to the new Rifts types, which is indicative of the effort to create a license that contemplates only Rifts elements, and not all of Palladium's IP. Also note that "Rahu Man" was not allowed as a name for the species in Savage Rifts. They came up with a new one for what is obviously a Rahu Man in order to include the relevant Federation of Magic story elements, without confusing the IPs. It is probable that "great horned dragon" is generic enough that it doesn't require separation (because it can't be protected).

[Axelmania]

What'd they rename the Rahu-Man to? CB1 was actually the first I ever heard of those guys, not even sure which Palladium RPG world book they got introduced in, I want to say a Hinterlands because snow?

[Orin J.]

There was a movie planned? out of rifts? seems a bit of a pipedream given the level of complexity in it. Wish i'd been around when it was discussed, what were the plans?

[Shark_Force]

There was a movie planned? out of rifts? seems a bit of a pipedream given the level of complexity in it. Wish i'd been around when it was discussed, what were the plans?

not plans, per se.

someone bought the rights to make a rifts movie, but there was never any guarantee it would happen.

[Warshield73]

There was a movie planned? out of rifts? seems a bit of a pipedream given the level of complexity in it. Wish i'd been around when it was discussed, what were the plans?

not plans, per se.

someone bought the rights to make a rifts movie, but there was never any guarantee it would happen.

I believe the rights are still with Jerry Bruckheimer or maybe Disney but he has had it for more than a decade. I know that they have had at least 2 writers attempt a screenplay in addition to Kevin and Clements writing Path of Storms.

[Jorick]

What'd they rename the Rahu-Man to? CB1 was actually the first I ever heard of those guys, not even sure which Palladium RPG world book they got introduced in, I want to say a Hinterlands because snow?

Savage Rifts calls them Vronwar (?)

I'm not sure where they are mentioned first. I don't have all the first edition books, but the revised main book does not mention Rahu-Men, though the other significant Giant races are, and Yin Sloth does mention Rahu-Men as if they should be familiar, but was printed after the Conversion Book. My guess would be maybe 1st edition Old Ones which I don't have, cause a quick flip through books I do have between that book and yin sloth doesn't reveal much (and I can't remember anything in particular in them that reminds me of Rahu Men).

Regardless, I think any beings in the Conversion Book are by definition converted from other Palladium properties. If they're there, they aren't Rifts. Exceptions to legal sequestering would be things with more generic names, like Vampires and Werewolves etc.

[Kraynic]

I'm not sure where they are mentioned first. I don't have all the first edition books, but the revised main book does not mention Rahu-Men, though the other significant Giant races are, and Yin Sloth does mention Rahu-Men as if they should be familiar, but was printed after the Conversion Book. My guess would be maybe 1st edition Old Ones which I don't have, cause a quick flip through books I do have between that book and yin sloth doesn't reveal much (and I can't remember anything in particular in them that reminds me of Rahu Men).

Rahu-Men were in the 1st Edition Monsters & Animals book (pg. 66-67).

[drewkitty ~..~]

I look at it this way, 'we have four more dragons to play with.' What PB with lisencing contigencies doesn't really effect my gaming.

[Jorick]

Rahu-Men were in the 1st Edition Monsters & Animals book (pg. 66-67).

Duh...I didn't even think of that. Thank you.

[Rallan]

There was a movie planned? out of rifts? seems a bit of a pipedream given the level of complexity in it. Wish i'd been around when it was discussed, what were the plans?

Jerry Bruckheimer's company optioned it a while back, but major studios option oodles of stuff all the time without developing it so it's not like there's gonna be a big announcement about a Rifts movie right around the corner or anything.

Plus it probably doesn't help that Rifts is a much less bankable brand than it was back in the day.

[torjones]

There was a movie planned? out of rifts? seems a bit of a pipedream given the level of complexity in it. Wish i'd been around when it was discussed, what were the plans?

Jerry Bruckheimer's company optioned it a while back, but major studios option oodles of stuff all the time without developing it so it's not like there's gonna be a big announcement about a Rifts movie right around the corner or anything.

Plus it probably doesn't help that Rifts is a much less bankable brand than it was back in the day.

Someone should have been smart enough to put a time limit on it so that if it isn't done within a certain amount of time, they can try again with a different producer.

[dreicunan]

There was a movie planned? out of rifts? seems a bit of a pipedream given the level of complexity in it. Wish i'd been around when it was discussed, what were the plans?

Jerry Bruckheimer's company optioned it a while back, but major studios option oodles of stuff all the time without developing it so it's not like there's gonna be a big announcement about a Rifts movie right around the corner or anything.

Plus it probably doesn't help that Rifts is a much less bankable brand than it was back in the day.

Someone should have been smart enough to put a time limit on it so that if it isn't done within a certain amount of time, they can try again with a different producer.

If he keeps on giving Palladium money every time it comes up and Kevin S accepts it, the time limit won't help.

[Curbludgeon]

The Great Horned dragon hatchling (listed in RMB but not RUE) was given stats in the Savage Rifts Tomorrow Legion Field Manual, which I suppose might reflect poorly on defending Palladium Fantasy copyright. That said, it's not like Fire/Ice/Thunder dragons were all that worth defending in and of themselves.

[glitterboy2098]

movie rights, like all IP rights, do have a time limit built into the licensing. the license agreement last a given number of years, specified on the license contract. after that time, the holder can request to renew, basically getting a first go to pay again for the license. if they choose not to renew, the license reverts back to the IP owners and can be marketed round again.

[Jorick]

If he keeps on giving Palladium money every time it comes up and Kevin S accepts it, the time limit won't help.

Yes.

I imagine the compensation for extension/renewal of the license is great for Palladium and negligible for Disney, to the extent that the license to Disney may be valuable to Palladium in and of itself, even if Disney never makes a movie.

It could become an issue if someone else came around with the ability to make a successful movie, paying at least as much as Disney for the risk to Palladium. It's important that the deal be about as lucrative even if the movie isn't made. That other someone could come along talking a big game, but give a worse deal, and Palladium could end up losing money. For instance, they may have to litigate against someone who was in breach (like actually not making the movie when/how they said they would) and being difficult about it (like pretending to be making the movie the right way and going to court about it, which someone as large as Disney could do without blinking while Palladium would go bankrupt). In general, movies have a hard time getting made, even when everything looks promising, and take so much time to make, even when they end up being made, that it's hard to tell if things are going well or not until it's too late to avoid a loss. If Palladium has a good relationship with Disney, and the money's good, everything's pretty good.

[glitterboy2098]

and the main reason for separating the lines as much as they can was to get more options for licensing.. Bruckheimer licensed the rights to Rifts. apparently because he used to play it himself. and then secured funding from disney to develop scripts.

but by dividing up the lines, this still leaves Palladium with licenses for Palladium Fantasy, Mechanoids, Nightbane, even Dead Reign they can market out to other places. (i'm not sure what the status of Chaos Earth and Phase World would be relative to rifts. also while they could market Heroes Unlimited i suspect that no one would be interested in trying to go up against the Marvel and DC Films.. and Disney already has Marvel..)