Why did K-Hex and Cruise missiles get nerfed?

[eliakon]

So when they went from RMB to RUE they massively upgraded missile damage...
then we come to the Fleets of the Three Galaxies and find out that cruise missiles still do less damage than LRM nuclear missiles and that K-Hex missiles now do the same damage as regular missiles?
What the heck?

Especially since everyone ELSE gets cruise missiles that do massive damage boosts and get more efficient missiles and the like.
Should we assume that K-Hex (and Concussion, and Slammer, and all the other specialized RMB missiles) scale up the same as regular ones? Or just assume that they are all now pointless?

[Axelmania]

DB2p53 "Money and Trade" mentions an exchange rate of 10 Rifts Earth credits for everyone one Three Galaxies credit... perhaps it would be solved be implementing such an 'exchange rate' for all damage too?

It wouldn't even be that unbalancing, considering there are 1/10 damage phase fields floating around in that dimension.

If the concern is the weapons coming to Rifts Earth, maybe some dimensional barrier hijinx somehow degrades them upon import, similar to whatever the Nightlords do.

[glitterboy2098]

two reasons i think.
1, Phase world was not considered when RUE upped the damage. no more than the variant missiles in japan or WB5 triax were given thought.

2, since phase world was a Carella work, and Kevin S. has this odd idea that everything carella created is massively over powered*, it probably wasn't seen as needing it.


*while carella made more than few fairly powerful things, this for the most part isn't true. which makes Kevin S's suggestion to cut the damage and armor 40-50% across the board fairly bad.


i would suggest just upping the damage to match their old dynamic.

[Mlp7029]

I understand the cruise missile issue and I would just up the damage. On the K-Hex missile side the mini-missiles have better damage and I would use those as a guide. The K-Hex He mini-missile does 1D4x10, average damage 25, vs the regular HE mini-missile doing 5D6, average damage 17.5, so the K-Hex does about 40% more damage for He and Frag missiles. The double price for K-Hex missiles is of course outrageous when K-Hex only costs about 4% more as an explosive vs the most expensive NG MD plastique.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I honestly dont think it is an issue.

LRMs cap out (Nuclear Multi-Warhead) at 2d4x100MD.

The "weak" Nuclear Cruise Missiles do 2d6x100 MD, and the stronger Anti-matter missiles do 4d6x100 MD.

They are categorically better than LRMs, even with the RUE/CWC upgrade.

Remember that Cruise Missiles cant be interdicted (shot down) if launched within 3 miles of the target, except by a counter-volley of 20+ missiles, and even then it may not shoot them all down! (you roll to see how many cruise missiles were intercepted, the rest hit, no matter what)

So, i dont see the need to upgrade the Cruise Missiles. They are still better than LRMs all day, every day. ANd keep in mind these are the "off the shelf" consumer model Cruise Missiles that anyone can buy from an arms dealer.

The big power bloc's have their own Cruise Missiles that are better - Heavy Antimatter for the CCW, Singularity Missiles for the TGE, a multi-warhead missile for the Kitani (10 submunitions, each at 2d6x100), and Neszam Torpedos for the Altess ("regular" anti-matter warheads but they are super-smart-missiles, and their launchers can launch huge volleys)

The other blocs are less technically advanced and cant make the super advanced warheads (like the Golgan).

K-HEX on the other hand...

Yeah, it needs a buff, since it is supposed to be better than regular missiles and after the upgrade, it is not.

[Drakenred®™©]

Generaly I posit that theres 4 tech levels in Rifts,

Early Rifts tec and black market,

first generation CS upgrade, some NGR gear and some pre war stockpiles that have not decayed into uslessness, and some stuff in orbital facilities

second generation CS gear that is just starting to show up,

Phaseworld standard,

Khex which adds 20% to Phaseworld damage

Thing is with most missiles If I need to quick roll some salvaged missiles I tend to use 1D4 rolls to quick stat something

1 Short 2 med 3 long 4 "Cruise"

Range multiple being 1 10 50 and 100/200/300/400

Offensive warhead being HE(Standard)
Plasma (no role with punch) one range band reduction
fragmentation(Double point blank blast radius and extend secondary and tertiary damage radius, half range
Plasma-napalm incendiary point blank blast radius only, half damage + 1D4 minuets of burn damage a 1/10th damage, not counting ignition
AP (one range band increase, damage bumped up by one step point blank damage to target only with blast damage and radiuses halved)

Damage and range I roll 1D4 6 8 or 10, range gets a bonus of +1 most of the time
SRM base is 10X (based in the roll) 1D4/1D6/1D8/1D12 .. 4D4/3D6 .. /5D4/4D6 .. 5D6 4D8 6D6 Base blast radius is 10X

(1~3~5 plus warhead "level" damage is full-10% 1% .o1 for another 10-60 ft beyond that, even if SDC f you realy need to to be that detailed

MRM base damage will be a number of D6 based on the type of roll

LRM starts getting into my personal "This is actually a special effect" territory with the reality being why would you waste one on a human sized target? with the damage being like the srms only multiplied by100

Cruise missiles tend to be the big slammers anti bunker and anti star ship, (given that our equivalent has a 1000 pound warhead capacity) same as MRM but with a 1D6X1000 point damage, seriously if you shoot one at a glitter boy.....do I need you to role damage for a Phase world Khex High Explosive missile? theres a crator where It stood,

Nukes tend to be one step up the food chain on this with Micro nukes being srms and kind of rare, MRM nukes being the Equivalent of LRM warheads, and Cruise missle nukes? well....

https://youtu.be/Uc1khcA-ud8?t=56

[eliakon]

I honestly dont think it is an issue.

LRMs cap out (Nuclear Multi-Warhead) at 2d4x100MD.

The "weak" Nuclear Cruise Missiles do 2d6x100 MD, and the stronger Anti-matter missiles do 4d6x100 MD.

They are categorically better than LRMs, even with the RUE/CWC upgrade.

Remember that Cruise Missiles cant be interdicted (shot down) if launched within 3 miles of the target, except by a counter-volley of 20+ missiles, and even then it may not shoot them all down! (you roll to see how many cruise missiles were intercepted, the rest hit, no matter what)

So, i dont see the need to upgrade the Cruise Missiles. They are still better than LRMs all day, every day. ANd keep in mind these are the "off the shelf" consumer model Cruise Missiles that anyone can buy from an arms dealer.

The big power bloc's have their own Cruise Missiles that are better - Heavy Antimatter for the CCW, Singularity Missiles for the TGE, a multi-warhead missile for the Kitani (10 submunitions, each at 2d6x100), and Neszam Torpedos for the Altess ("regular" anti-matter warheads but they are super-smart-missiles, and their launchers can launch huge volleys)

The other blocs are less technically advanced and cant make the super advanced warheads (like the Golgan).

K-HEX on the other hand...

Yeah, it needs a buff, since it is supposed to be better than regular missiles and after the upgrade, it is not.

The problem is that we have two classes of cruise missile tier weapons
Tier 1
Nuclear: 2d6x100
Antimatter 4d6x100
Nerzam: 2d6x100
Ion torpedo 2d6x200

And the Tier 2
Singularity 2d6x1000
Heavy Cruise 2d6x1000
Splinter Cruise 2d6x1000
Heavy Antimatter 1d6x1000
Heavy Singularity 1d6x1000
Heavy Phase 2d6x1000

That's pretty Jarring.
(for more fun the Slammer missiles got worse in RUE)
Add in all the various missiles that never got brought over to RUE and your looking at some serious problems.

2d6x100 for a nuclear cruise missile was pretty impressive... when a multi-warhead LRM did 4d6x10.
But now?
For Cruise missiles have less range (many LRMs have a range of 1800 miles vs the 1000miles of a cruise missile), and are only marginally more powerful... and that's totally setting aside the MRM sized firefly.
This just doesn't make sense.
If we use the same math as PW/RMB
then a nuclear cruise missile would do 1d4x1000 (ten times half the damage of a nuke) basic antimatter would do 2d4x1000 (double what a nuke does)
And then the specialty stuff like Splinter, Singularity and Phase all make total sense at 2d6x1000
This leaves us with three
I would say that Nerzam should be a 2d6x1000 and Ion do 1d6x1000 (its future tech but a low tech people doing it)
I would give the Naruni a 2d6x1000 missile myself (why in the world do they have one of the weakest missiles in the book?!?!?!)

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I still think people are vastly undervaluing the fact that Cruise Missiles are resistant to counter-missile fire, and that even if they CAN be intercepted (the defending vessel has to be able to launch 20+ counter-missiles - and ONLY missiles, railguns and energy weapons dont work) there’s a secent likelyhood that 20-50% of them will get through anyway.

That alone makes Cruise Missiles far better than LRMs. If you launch 20 LRMs, i can 100% shoot them down with a counter-volley of 20 missiles, even if you launch at point blank range. If you shoot me with 20 CruMs, a decent number will get through no matter what.

Really, thats all the better they need to be.

Even the “low-end” CruMs still do more damage than a LRM, and the “average” ones (anti-matter) inflict 3x as much (800 max vs 2400 max), so, im not really seing the problem.

And when you factor in that those are the commercially available “off the shelf” models, and the various factions have better missiles (1d4x1000 or better), it seems fine to me.

[eliakon]

I still think people are vastly undervaluing the fact that Cruise Missiles are resistant to counter-missile fire, and that even if they CAN be intercepted (the defending vessel has to be able to launch 20+ counter-missiles - and ONLY missiles, railguns and energy weapons dont work) there’s a secent likelyhood that 20-50% of them will get through anyway.

That alone makes Cruise Missiles far better than LRMs. If you launch 20 LRMs, i can 100% shoot them down with a counter-volley of 20 missiles, even if you launch at point blank range. If you shoot me with 20 CruMs, a decent number will get through no matter what.

Really, thats all the better they need to be.

Even the “low-end” CruMs still do more damage than a LRM, and the “average” ones (anti-matter) inflict 3x as much (800 max vs 2400 max), so, im not really seing the problem.

And when you factor in that those are the commercially available “off the shelf” models, and the various factions have better missiles (1d4x1000 or better), it seems fine to me.

Which still leaves it bizzare that the "old" cruise missiles got no boost...
...but every NEW missile? Yeah, every new one is x1000
Which pretty much tells you right there that it was just lazy "I can't be bothered to update these old things so I'm going to cut and paste them"

That and...out of curiosity...
Where is the rule about cruise missiles?
I know that the Khreghor Berserker has that as a special rule for its salvo if fired from less than 3 miles away... but I am not seeing that as a universal CM rule. Can you share the citation please?

[eliakon]

Yeah... so with Cruise Missiles just as vulnerable to counter fire as any other missile (the sole exception is the unique berserker ship if it fires from less than 3 miles away...which is under minimum range for many cruise missiles to start with!)

I am not seeing why improving all the OTHER warheads but not cruise missiles makes any sense.
We boosted every other category of missile across the board...
but now, cruise missiles instead of being around 10x better than an LRM... are 2x better.
With less range!
Remember old LRM to Cruise missile ratio was
4d6x10 vs 2d6x100 (pretty impressive really)
now its 2d4x100 vs 2d6x100 (barely any better, and with less range)
That seems... pointlessly small of an improvement to pay that much more size and money for.
Especially since you could just use a Tomahawk LRM and do 3d4x100 to a 1000' radius and 1d4x100 to a 3 mile radius

[Axelmania]

With the cost of the larger missiles and the huge waste of investment if the missile is shot down before reaching a target, I can't help but wonder if someone has experimented with equipping long-range or cruise missiles with Phase Fields.

Taking 1/10 damage from attempts to shoot the missile down would be pretty useful in increasing odds it gets to target before exploding prematurely.

As costly as phase fields are, it's a drop in the bucket compared to missile costs in rifts.

Heck, it might even be worth it to give missiles force field projectors that deactivate a split second before they reach their target.

[eliakon]

With the cost of the larger missiles and the huge waste of investment if the missile is shot down before reaching a target, I can't help but wonder if someone has experimented with equipping long-range or cruise missiles with Phase Fields.

Taking 1/10 damage from attempts to shoot the missile down would be pretty useful in increasing odds it gets to target before exploding prematurely.

As costly as phase fields are, it's a drop in the bucket compared to missile costs in rifts.

Heck, it might even be worth it to give missiles force field projectors that deactivate a split second before they reach their target.

Why not simply put stealth systems on them.
Radar Invisible Armor is going to only cost a few thousand to a few tens of thousands and lowers detection rates to 11%.
If you slap a stealth coat on it too that's -20% to sensor rolls.

Basic countermeasures are how you ensure your missiles get through.

[jaymz]

Simple answer? Kevin never liked the phaseworld damage levels (even though frankly they are no where NEAR as bad as people like to make them out to be, and HE approved them to be published to begin with) thus rifts ue increased equal to robotech 2nd edition and didn't bother increasing phaseworld accordingly.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

thus rifts ue increased equal to robotech 2nd edition and didn't bother increasing phaseworld accordingly.

RUE came WAY before Robotech 2nd Edition.

Not that it matters, since the missile damage increase happened in CWC, which was WAY before RUE.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Where is the rule about cruise missiles?
I know that the Khreghor Berserker has that as a special rule for its salvo if fired from less than 3 miles away... but I am not seeing that as a universal CM rule. Can you share the citation please?

You cited it.

This is not the first, second, third, fourth, tenth, or fiftieth time that a rule governing all of something is noted in only one place in Palladium.

Firing with your off-hand? Thats a -2 strike. That rule is in the description for a single Power Armor, but is definitely a general rule regarding all weapons. I literally just read this for the first time last week. Its been a rule for over 20 years.

Firing an FSEclip weapon with one hand? Penalty to strike. Noted in only one weapon, but applies to all of them. Also something i re-discovered recently, (i do remember reading it before once i was reminded of it.) Also a rule for more than 20 years.

We know the Berserker fires off-the-shelf cruise missiles.

So, what part of the following makes you think, in any way, that this only applies to the Berserker?

Countermeasures will work if missiles are launched at a distance greater than three miles. Otherwise, the missiles will reach the target in less than one second! Only a counter-volley of 20 missiles or more will stop the barrage (roll 2D6+8 to determine how many cruise missiles were destroyed; the remainder will hit the target).

There's nothing special noted about this launcher, at all. These are off-the-shelf cruise missiles.

If you're within 3 miles, they hit in less than one second.

Yeah... so with Cruise Missiles just as vulnerable to counter fire as any other missile (the sole exception is the unique berserker ship if it fires from less than 3 miles away...which is under minimum range for many cruise missiles to start with!)

Again, this would not be the first, tenth, twentieth, or fiftieth time a hard-and-fast-rule that applies to ALL occurences of something is explained in a single description somewhere. There is NO word of any kind that the Berserker-class has special launchers or missiles. Just that their tactic is to close to short range and let loose with huge volleys of missiles. Said huge volleys of missiles aren't easily interdictable at such short ranges, which is why they do it.

There's also no minimum range for Cruise Missiles. You're literally making that up.

The Hunter-class Destroyer mentions that they usually close to within less than one mile to use their single-shot Cruise Missile Launcher. The Warshield-class cruiser notes "Optimum Launch Range is 1 to 3 miles". The Smasher-class cruiser repeats the rule, even though the volley sizes are different, and it specifically notes that the Smasher-class is meant to fight at long range, and that Captains often came up as Berserker captains and try to fight their ships the same way. The rule is again repeated in the Doombringer Dreadnaught description, again with different volley sizes. Another mention of optimal range being 1-3 miles.

Also:

-last paragraph-
Large vessels cannot dodge even one missile, let alone a volley of missiles. The only option is to shoot the missiles before they hit. If missiles are launched at point blank range, (one mile/1.6km or less), their speed is such that they simply cannot be stopped by anything other than a forcefield (see below).

That implies that ANY missiles launched within 1 mile cant be interdicted, not just Cruise Missiles.

So, what we have is:

Normal missiles launched at any range above 1 mile out can be interdicted by point defense weapons fire, a counter-volley (and if you have the same number of missiles, they just automatically destroy the entire incoming volley), or any other means.

Cruise missiles launched between 3 miles out and 1 mile out can only be interdicted with large volleys of counter-missiles (20 or more) and some might still get through no matter what.

ANY missiles launched at ships within 1 mile hit automatically and cant be interdicted at all, by anything, and are only stopped by forcefields if they are up.

I am not seeing why improving all the OTHER warheads but not cruise missiles makes any sense.
We boosted every other category of missile across the board...
but now, cruise missiles instead of being around 10x better than an LRM... are 2x better.
With less range!
Remember old LRM to Cruise missile ratio was
4d6x10 vs 2d6x100 (pretty impressive really)
now its 2d4x100 vs 2d6x100 (barely any better, and with less range)

Except that Anti-matter warheads do 4d6x100. Three times as much as an LRM. And, again, these are the commercially available, even to private citizens models.


The "military grade" missiles are all WAY better.

That seems... pointlessly small of an improvement to pay that much more size and money for.
Especially since you could just use a Tomahawk LRM and do 3d4x100 to a 1000' radius and 1d4x100 to a 3 mile radius

Except that literally no one, not even the TGE, uses WMD in the Three Galaxies. They dont bombard planets with Cruise Missiles, either. (They stop at blasting cities with lasers from orbit) So no, you couldn't just "use a Tomahawk". They dont use weapons of that type in the Three Galaxies. Not even the evil dudes.

So.. again, im not seeing the issue here.

Cruise Missiles are still better. They do more damage (even the crappiest of crappy "civilian" clean-nuke CMs do more than an LRM, and the Anti-Matter ones do 3x as much), are harder to interdict, and have more MDC (so even if you do get a shot in at them, its a lot less likely to detonate the missiles).

"Military Grade" cruise missiles are even better.

Now, for the K-hex stuff, we're in agreement. Probably should have been updated in Naruni Phase Two.

[eliakon]

Where is the rule about cruise missiles?
I know that the Khreghor Berserker has that as a special rule for its salvo if fired from less than 3 miles away... but I am not seeing that as a universal CM rule. Can you share the citation please?

You cited it.

This is not the first, second, third, fourth, tenth, or fiftieth time that a rule governing all of something is noted in only one place in Palladium.

Firing with your off-hand? Thats a -2 strike. That rule is in the description for a single Power Armor, but is definitely a general rule regarding all weapons.

To bad that rule is printed in more than one source... so try again?

I literally just read this for the first time last week. Its been a rule for over 20 years.

For that one ship yes.

Firing an FSEclip weapon with one hand? Penalty to strike. Noted in only one weapon, but applies to all of them. Also something i re-discovered recently, (i do remember reading it before once i was reminded of it.) Also a rule for more than 20 years.

Citation? You simply asserting something neither makes it true nor proves your point.

We know the Berserker fires off-the-shelf cruise missiles.

So, what part of the following makes you think, in any way, that this only applies to the Berserker?

We know that various guns fire off the shelf bullets and yet they can have different rules...

Oh, and because it doesn't say this in any other ship, nor does it mention this amazing super power when talking about point defense.
So unless you can cite anything else it is simply your house rule that this is a universal rule.
No really, the universal rule is pretty specific about shooting down missiles. So to claim that the universal rule has been changed you need to have something better than the unique rule for one specific ship.

Countermeasures will work if missiles are launched at a distance greater than three miles. Otherwise, the missiles will reach the target in less than one second! Only a counter-volley of 20 missiles or more will stop the barrage (roll 2D6+8 to determine how many cruise missiles were destroyed; the remainder will hit the target).

There's nothing special noted about this launcher, at all. These are off-the-shelf cruise missiles.

If you're within 3 miles, they hit in less than one second.

Which is not something that normal cruise missiles can do normally since the don't move that fast...
...so there appears to be something different about the Berserker.
Who knows, maybe it has some sort of accelerator that fires its missiles faster or something...
Since 3 miles in under 1 second is just over Mach 16... which is faster than any cruise missile in the game
Note that the missiles in question move at Mach 9.

Yeah... so with Cruise Missiles just as vulnerable to counter fire as any other missile (the sole exception is the unique berserker ship if it fires from less than 3 miles away...which is under minimum range for many cruise missiles to start with!)

Again, this would not be the first, tenth, twentieth, or fiftieth time a hard-and-fast-rule that applies to ALL occurences of something is explained in a single description somewhere. There is NO word of any kind that the Berserker-class has special launchers or missiles. Just that their tactic is to close to short range and let loose with huge volleys of missiles. Said huge volleys of missiles aren't easily interdictable at such short ranges, which is why they do it.

This isn't stated as a hard and fast rule though. It is stated as how the Berserker works. You are simply claiming that it is a universal rule and that it applies to all missiles.... with out any proof other than "I assert that any rule in any individual item is universal"

There's also no minimum range for Cruise Missiles. You're literally making that up.

Since some missiles have ranges listed as "x to y"... yeah there appears to be a minimum arming range on them.
(For example 3 miles is still with in the blast radius of thermo-nuclear bombs...)

EDIT: on further reading of the books vs my notes I will admit that I was in the wrong here. I was conflating variable ranges on the LAUNCHERS with minimum ranges on the MISSILES. Totally my mistake. Colonel T. is correct, there is no minimum range on missiles of any sort that I can find.
Claim withdrawn eliakon

The Hunter-class Destroyer mentions that they usually close to within less than one mile to use their single-shot Cruise Missile Launcher. The Warshield-class cruiser notes "Optimum Launch Range is 1 to 3 miles". The Smasher-class cruiser repeats the rule, even though the volley sizes are different, and it specifically notes that the Smasher-class is meant to fight at long range, and that Captains often came up as Berserker captains and try to fight their ships the same way. The rule is again repeated in the Doombringer Dreadnaught description, again with different volley sizes. Another mention of optimal range being 1-3 miles.

Odd that none of THEM mention this supposed "universal rule" about how they work then...

Also:

-last paragraph-
Large vessels cannot dodge even one missile, let alone a volley of missiles. The only option is to shoot the missiles before they hit. If missiles are launched at point blank range, (one mile/1.6km or less), their speed is such that they simply cannot be stopped by anything other than a forcefield (see below).

That implies that ANY missiles launched within 1 mile cant be interdicted, not just Cruise Missiles.

Unless of course you had say... a device that specifically stated that in its text that it can stop any volley of missiles and works specifically at 1 mile range...
(like say the counter missile system from MiO… which is hilarious that the Earthlings have the best point defense in the galaxy)
(Or you have anything up that has a %chance to destroy missiles automatically)
(Or you have any sort of automatic damage effect up)
(Or...)

So, what we have is:

Normal missiles launched at any range above 1 mile out can be interdicted by point defense weapons fire, a counter-volley (and if you have the same number of missiles, they just automatically destroy the entire incoming volley), or any other means.

Correct, any missile can be interdicted

Cruise missiles launched between 3 miles out and 1 mile out can only be interdicted with large volleys of counter-missiles (20 or more) and some might still get through no matter what.

Nope.
Only if fired by a Berserker.

ANY missiles launched at ships within 1 mile hit automatically and cant be interdicted at all, by anything, and are only stopped by forcefields if they are up.

Which seems odd that space ships are less capable than anything else in the game but meh.
So unless you have a counter missile system (which explicitly states that it will engage and shoot down missiles automatically and works at less than one mile...) or some other system that states that it has specific rule X.

I am not seeing why improving all the OTHER warheads but not cruise missiles makes any sense.
We boosted every other category of missile across the board...
but now, cruise missiles instead of being around 10x better than an LRM... are 2x better.
With less range!
Remember old LRM to Cruise missile ratio was
4d6x10 vs 2d6x100 (pretty impressive really)
now its 2d4x100 vs 2d6x100 (barely any better, and with less range)

Except that Anti-matter warheads do 4d6x100. Three times as much as an LRM. And, again, these are the commercially available, even to private citizens models.



The "military grade" missiles are all WAY better.

And your missing the point.
The are ALL commercial grade.
But the old ratio was 4d6x10 vs 4d6x100
Now it is 2d4x100 vs 4d6x100
So... x3 damage?
For Antimatter Cruise missile vs LRM Nuke
Or you know you can buy an off the shelf conventional Cruise missile that does
2d6x1000 to a 500' radius...
Not a Singularity, not a Splinter just a generic cruise...

That seems... pointlessly small of an improvement to pay that much more size and money for.
Especially since you could just use a Tomahawk LRM and do 3d4x100 to a 1000' radius and 1d4x100 to a 3 mile radius

Except that literally no one, not even the TGE, uses WMD in the Three Galaxies. They dont bombard planets with Cruise Missiles, either. (They stop at blasting cities with lasers from orbit) So no, you couldn't just "use a Tomahawk". They dont use weapons of that type in the Three Galaxies. Not even the evil dudes.

I would bet that if the writers remembered that they had them they would
Also, you seem to be confused about the game.
The official material is explicit that the TGE *does* use WMD, and in fact the main armament on some of their ships is mass drivers specifically for ground bombardment. It is explicitly only the CAF that has outlawed that
So the claim that the TGE is some sort of cuddly good guy.... 100% head canon.


But okay... lets just look at the off the shelf stuff
normal cruise missile
x100
Oh wait... off the shelf heavy cruise missiles and racial missiles are all x1000
So all the heavy gear got bumped up to the new tier... but not *antimatter*

So.. again, im not seeing the issue here.

Because anti-matter cruise missiles are doing less damage than anything that was written afterwords.
The older missiles didn't get improved while every later missile DID.

Cruise Missiles are still better. They do more damage (even the crappiest of crappy "civilian" clean-nuke CMs do more than an LRM, and the Anti-Matter ones do 3x as much), are harder to interdict, and have more MDC (so even if you do get a shot in at them, its a lot less likely to detonate the missiles).

Do barely more damage
Just as easy to interdict unless fired from one specific ship using one specific special snowflake rule
A slightly more MDC (45 vs 20)
and most have less range (1,000 miles)

"Military Grade" cruise missiles are even better.

No... you seem to be under the impression that there is a difference.
You must be reading a different set of books here.
The military grade stuff is no better.
Not in the slightest
Nerzam Torpedo? Ion Torpedo? Anti-Ship Torpedo? Same level of junk just a reskin of the other two missiles.
The only ones that are in the x1000 are Singularity, Splinter, Phase and the three heavy cruise (of which only the singularity is 'military grade' either)

Now, for the K-hex stuff, we're in agreement. Probably should have been updated in Naruni Phase Two.

[eliakon]

Fleets of the Three Galaxy
Page 36
Short-Range Missile Launchers (32)
These are used for … to shoot down incoming cruise missiles
volleys of four or eight

I think that pretty much puts to rest the claim that Cruise Missiles can only be shot down by volleys of 20+ cruise missiles if 4-8 SRMs are the standard point defense for that purpose.

Ugh, and page 100 tells us that the nuclear CMs are 500kt weapons.
Which is dumb since the Tomahawk LRM is a 200kt warhead and has a 3 MILE blast radius

*sigh*

[Axelmania]

Why not simply put stealth systems on them.
Radar Invisible Armor is going to only cost a few thousand to a few tens of thousands and lowers detection rates to 11%.
If you slap a stealth coat on it too that's -20% to sensor rolls.

Basic countermeasures are how you ensure your missiles get through.

Also a great idea, though I still like the idea of a force field or a phase field on the off chance they do get detected and targeted.

Firing with your off-hand? Thats a -2 strike. That rule is in the description for a single Power Armor, but is definitely a general rule regarding all weapons. I literally just read this for the first time last week. Its been a rule for over 20 years.

I trust you, but I still want to figure out what book/page/weapon snuck that in.

Also:

-last paragraph-
Large vessels cannot dodge even one missile, let alone a volley of missiles. The only option is to shoot the missiles before they hit. If missiles are launched at point blank range, (one mile/1.6km or less), their speed is such that they simply cannot be stopped by anything other than a forcefield (see below).

That implies that ANY missiles launched within 1 mile cant be interdicted, not just Cruise Missiles.

So, what we have is:

Normal missiles launched at any range above 1 mile out can be interdicted by point defense weapons fire, a counter-volley (and if you have the same number of missiles, they just automatically destroy the entire incoming volley), or any other means.

Cruise missiles launched between 3 miles out and 1 mile out can only be interdicted with large volleys of counter-missiles (20 or more) and some might still get through no matter what.

ANY missiles launched at ships within 1 mile hit automatically and cant be interdicted at all, by anything, and are only stopped by forcefields if they are up.

One small note here, since you write "ships" which might lead some to assume it might apply to any space ship, including small fighters...

"Large vessels" is defined in the immediately preceding section ("Modified Dodge for Large Vessels") as being 1,000ft or bigger, so ships that are 999ft or less would be able to attempt interdiction of missiles launched within 1000ft.

So this rule is basically just going to apply to the utterly biggest ships like the CCW Protector (98) Packmaster (100) pr Dreadnought (102). All the others in DB2+3 are under 1000ft and can shoot down missiles shot from ANY distance.

Cruise Missiles are resistant to counter-missile fire, and that even if they CAN be intercepted
(the defending vessel has to be able to launch 20+ counter-missiles - and ONLY missiles, railguns and energy weapons dont work)
..
We know the Berserker fires off-the-shelf cruise missiles.

So, what part of the following makes you think, in any way, that this only applies to the Berserker?

It definitely doesn't apply just to the Berserker, we also see DB2p171's note appear on DB3 pg 95 (Smasher) and 103 (Dreadnought)

There's nothing special noted about this launcher, at all.

The interesting thing is that DB3 does note something special: the smasher uses batteries "identical to the Berserker".

It might be something specific to Kreeghor launchers since those appear to be the only ones noting this benefit.

Perhaps this unique benefit explains some of the Kreeghor dominance as an empire?

literally no one, not even the TGE, uses WMD in the Three Galaxies.
They dont bombard planets with Cruise Missiles, either.
(They stop at blasting cities with lasers from orbit)

Not wasting missiles destroying a planet is probably just a matter of economics, cheaper to use your 'effectively unlimited' weapon to raze a planet than waste expensive missiles that are best reserved for quickly killing stuff that can shoot back at you, like other ships.

Dreadnought Horn Cannons vs a planet basically operate like WMB anyway, max damage to 60ft radius and 2d6x10 to an added 200ft, so you're looking at a 520ft diameter circle of destruction.

Lasers are actually better: at +50ft per simultaneous blast (max 3) adding 150 to the initially-lower 50+100 actually gives you 300ft radius (600ft diameter circle) adding up to more than a horn cannon.

Ugh, and page 100 tells us that the nuclear CMs are 500kt weapons.
Which is dumb since the Tomahawk LRM is a 200kt warhead and has a 3 MILE blast radius

Was that from CS Navy? In fairness I don't think that was out yet when CJ did DB2.

[eliakon]

Why not simply put stealth systems on them.
Radar Invisible Armor is going to only cost a few thousand to a few tens of thousands and lowers detection rates to 11%.
If you slap a stealth coat on it too that's -20% to sensor rolls.

Basic countermeasures are how you ensure your missiles get through.

Also a great idea, though I still like the idea of a force field or a phase field on the off chance they do get detected and targeted.

That's a lot of money for little gain.
You can buy another volley for the price of putting fields on your missiles.
Realistically, put stealth on your missiles, and seed in some Wild Weasel decoys and/or decoy sats, ECM, and Scramblers.

Also:

-last paragraph-
Large vessels cannot dodge even one missile, let alone a volley of missiles. The only option is to shoot the missiles before they hit. If missiles are launched at point blank range, (one mile/1.6km or less), their speed is such that they simply cannot be stopped by anything other than a forcefield (see below).

That implies that ANY missiles launched within 1 mile cant be interdicted, not just Cruise Missiles.

So, what we have is:

Normal missiles launched at any range above 1 mile out can be interdicted by point defense weapons fire, a counter-volley (and if you have the same number of missiles, they just automatically destroy the entire incoming volley), or any other means.

Cruise missiles launched between 3 miles out and 1 mile out can only be interdicted with large volleys of counter-missiles (20 or more) and some might still get through no matter what.

ANY missiles launched at ships within 1 mile hit automatically and cant be interdicted at all, by anything, and are only stopped by forcefields if they are up.

One small note here, since you write "ships" which might lead some to assume it might apply to any space ship, including small fighters...

"Large vessels" is defined in the immediately preceding section ("Modified Dodge for Large Vessels") as being 1,000ft or bigger, so ships that are 999ft or less would be able to attempt interdiction of missiles launched within 1000ft.

So this rule is basically just going to apply to the utterly biggest ships like the CCW Protector (98) Packmaster (100) pr Dreadnought (102). All the others in DB2+3 are under 1000ft and can shoot down missiles shot from ANY distance.

lol
that is a MASSIVE thing to leave out.
It means that point defense works on everything but the largest Capital and Super-Capital ships...
...hardly "missiles can not be stopped at all"

Cruise Missiles are resistant to counter-missile fire, and that even if they CAN be intercepted
(the defending vessel has to be able to launch 20+ counter-missiles - and ONLY missiles, railguns and energy weapons dont work)
..
We know the Berserker fires off-the-shelf cruise missiles.

So, what part of the following makes you think, in any way, that this only applies to the Berserker?

It definitely doesn't apply just to the Berserker, we also see DB2p171's note appear on DB3 pg 95 (Smasher) and 103 (Dreadnought)

There's nothing special noted about this launcher, at all.

The interesting thing is that DB3 does note something special: the smasher uses batteries "identical to the Berserker".

It might be something specific to Kreeghor launchers since those appear to be the only ones noting this benefit.

Perhaps this unique benefit explains some of the Kreeghor dominance as an empire?

That actually could be a possibility.
What ever it is, we don't see it on any of the Kreeghor ships in DB 13.

literally no one, not even the TGE, uses WMD in the Three Galaxies.
They dont bombard planets with Cruise Missiles, either.
(They stop at blasting cities with lasers from orbit)

Not wasting missiles destroying a planet is probably just a matter of economics, cheaper to use your 'effectively unlimited' weapon to raze a planet than waste expensive missiles that are best reserved for quickly killing stuff that can shoot back at you, like other ships.

Dreadnought Horn Cannons vs a planet basically operate like WMB anyway, max damage to 60ft radius and 2d6x10 to an added 200ft, so you're looking at a 520ft diameter circle of destruction.

Lasers are actually better: at +50ft per simultaneous blast (max 3) adding 150 to the initially-lower 50+100 actually gives you 300ft radius (600ft diameter circle) adding up to more than a horn cannon.

Which is handy yes...
but since we KNOW that everyone but the CAF, and possibly the UWW bombards planets as per the written text it isn't really an issue...
Like seriously, we know.
Look at the purpose of the various Cruise Missile batteries on the ships in DB13... "Anti-Instillation" and "Bombardment"
Then there is the Splugorth with their mass driver that is explicitly for planetary bombardment...
Not to mention that the Lanator Accords are between the CCW and the TGE, and the TGE cheats on them (they have bombarded rebel worlds)

Ugh, and page 100 tells us that the nuclear CMs are 500kt weapons.
Which is dumb since the Tomahawk LRM is a 200kt warhead and has a 3 MILE blast radius

Was that from CS Navy? In fairness I don't think that was out yet when CJ did DB2.

The Tomahawk was from CS Navy
The 500kt ruling though was from DB13.
Which does give the CM a moderate power boost
They get the stealth power that each one produces an EMP and has a 20% chance of knocking a ship offline.
I will admit that right there is pretty good, and makes up for a lot of the missing damage. a 1 in 5 chance that any given volley will take out a ship regardless of MDC? Yeah, that makes up for the missing couple hundred dice of damage.
Though it is kind of stupid that they don't have the proper blast radius.
Heck even the LRMs in Manhunter have bigger Blast Radii

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Firing with your off-hand? Thats a -2 strike. That rule is in the description for a single Power Armor, but is definitely a general rule regarding all weapons. I literally just read this for the first time last week. Its been a rule for over 20 years.

I trust you, but I still want to figure out what book/page/weapon snuck that in.

Triax 1 - under the Predator. Actually might have been Sourcebook 1 (non-revised), but i saw it in Triax 1. (checked) Yep, SB1.

Energy Rifles or Light Rail Guns and other normal weapons can be substituted in an emergency or as a back-up weapon. Space limitations and the bulk of the armor limit the additional weapons to one. The weapon can only be fired by the left hand, thus all right-handed pilots are -2 to strike.

Since the only reason it can "only be fired by the left hand" is because the right arm is a giant pulse weapon, the -2 to strike is for firing off-handed.

Also:

-last paragraph-
Large vessels cannot dodge even one missile, let alone a volley of missiles. The only option is to shoot the missiles before they hit. If missiles are launched at point blank range, (one mile/1.6km or less), their speed is such that they simply cannot be stopped by anything other than a forcefield (see below).

That implies that ANY missiles launched within 1 mile cant be interdicted, not just Cruise Missiles.

So, what we have is:

Normal missiles launched at any range above 1 mile out can be interdicted by point defense weapons fire, a counter-volley (and if you have the same number of missiles, they just automatically destroy the entire incoming volley), or any other means.

Cruise missiles launched between 3 miles out and 1 mile out can only be interdicted with large volleys of counter-missiles (20 or more) and some might still get through no matter what.

ANY missiles launched at ships within 1 mile hit automatically and cant be interdicted at all, by anything, and are only stopped by forcefields if they are up.

One small note here, since you write "ships" which might lead some to assume it might apply to any space ship, including small fighters...

Ships are ships. Fighters are fighters. "Vessels" might be usable for both, but the other two terms are NOT interchangeable in any parlance im aware of.

You dont call an F/A-18 a "ship". Its a fighter. An Aircraft Carrier is a ship. Fighters can still dodge missiles (except perhaps a CM barrage... but who is going to flush 20 or so CMs to kill one fighter?

"Large vessels" is defined in the immediately preceding section ("Modified Dodge for Large Vessels") as being 1,000ft or bigger, so ships that are 999ft or less would be able to attempt interdiction of missiles launched within 1000ft.

So this rule is basically just going to apply to the utterly biggest ships like the CCW Protector (98) Packmaster (100) pr Dreadnought (102). All the others in DB2+3 are under 1000ft and can shoot down missiles shot from ANY distance.

Nope. Read it again. Large vessels CANNOT DODGE even one missile. The interdiction rules dont have anything to do with dodging, at all. Smaller vessels could DODGE a small volley of missiles, but again, that has nothing to do with interdiction.

Cruise Missiles are resistant to counter-missile fire, and that even if they CAN be intercepted
(the defending vessel has to be able to launch 20+ counter-missiles - and ONLY missiles, railguns and energy weapons dont work)
..
We know the Berserker fires off-the-shelf cruise missiles.

So, what part of the following makes you think, in any way, that this only applies to the Berserker?

It definitely doesn't apply just to the Berserker, we also see DB2p171's note appear on DB3 pg 95 (Smasher) and 103 (Dreadnought)

There's nothing special noted about this launcher, at all.

The interesting thing is that DB3 does note something special: the smasher uses batteries "identical to the Berserker".

It might be something specific to Kreeghor launchers since those appear to be the only ones noting this benefit.

Perhaps this unique benefit explains some of the Kreeghor dominance as an empire?

The Doombringer, however, does NOT say that. Nor do ANY of those descriptions remotely imply that its a unique feature. Like many other rules, its just incosistently printed. (See the -2 for shooting off-handed above, or the rules about FSE weapons, or firing a rifle one-handed, which are printed in obscure areas (usually the description of an item) and not in a "rules" area).

literally no one, not even the TGE, uses WMD in the Three Galaxies.
They dont bombard planets with Cruise Missiles, either.
(They stop at blasting cities with lasers from orbit)

Not wasting missiles destroying a planet is probably just a matter of economics, cheaper to use your 'effectively unlimited' weapon to raze a planet than waste expensive missiles that are best reserved for quickly killing stuff that can shoot back at you, like other ships.

Nope. Its specifically part of the Lanator Accords. No WMDs. It traces back to the Dominators and fear of WMDs instilled by them. Much like the Honor Harrington universe, its literally the one thing you can do that will make EVERYONE turn on you. You start indiscriminately bombarding planets with WMDs, and EVERYONE else will turn on you and attack. Because you're crazy and cant be trusted to be civilized. It is noted that the TGE limits itself to laser bombardments of crops and resources, and then they leave the planet to starve, because that is technically not against the rules.

Dreadnought Horn Cannons vs a planet basically operate like WMB anyway, max damage to 60ft radius and 2d6x10 to an added 200ft, so you're looking at a 520ft diameter circle of destruction.

Lasers are actually better: at +50ft per simultaneous blast (max 3) adding 150 to the initially-lower 50+100 actually gives you 300ft radius (600ft diameter circle) adding up to more than a horn cannon.

Only because anti-ship missiles are relatively "clean" weapons (like Rifts Mutli-warhead Nuke LRMs). Also, however, laser bombardment doesn't leave radioactive areas and can be relatively precisely targeted.

[eliakon]

Also:

-last paragraph-
Large vessels cannot dodge even one missile, let alone a volley of missiles. The only option is to shoot the missiles before they hit. If missiles are launched at point blank range, (one mile/1.6km or less), their speed is such that they simply cannot be stopped by anything other than a forcefield (see below).

That implies that ANY missiles launched within 1 mile cant be interdicted, not just Cruise Missiles.

So, what we have is:

Normal missiles launched at any range above 1 mile out can be interdicted by point defense weapons fire, a counter-volley (and if you have the same number of missiles, they just automatically destroy the entire incoming volley), or any other means.

Cruise missiles launched between 3 miles out and 1 mile out can only be interdicted with large volleys of counter-missiles (20 or more) and some might still get through no matter what.

ANY missiles launched at ships within 1 mile hit automatically and cant be interdicted at all, by anything, and are only stopped by forcefields if they are up.

One small note here, since you write "ships" which might lead some to assume it might apply to any space ship, including small fighters...

Ships are ships. Fighters are fighters. "Vessels" might be usable for both, but the other two terms are NOT interchangeable in any parlance im aware of.

You dont call an F/A-18 a "ship". Its a fighter. An Aircraft Carrier is a ship. Fighters can still dodge missiles (except perhaps a CM barrage... but who is going to flush 20 or so CMs to kill one fighter?

Phase world game calls fighters ships
They are explicitly called out as spaceships
They are "ships" so arguing realworld semantics doesn't help you in the slightest

"Large vessels" is defined in the immediately preceding section ("Modified Dodge for Large Vessels") as being 1,000ft or bigger, so ships that are 999ft or less would be able to attempt interdiction of missiles launched within 1000ft.

So this rule is basically just going to apply to the utterly biggest ships like the CCW Protector (98) Packmaster (100) pr Dreadnought (102). All the others in DB2+3 are under 1000ft and can shoot down missiles shot from ANY distance.

Nope. Read it again. Large vessels CANNOT DODGE even one missile. The interdiction rules dont have anything to do with dodging, at all. Smaller vessels could DODGE a small volley of missiles, but again, that has nothing to do with interdiction.

Cruise Missiles are resistant to counter-missile fire, and that even if they CAN be intercepted
(the defending vessel has to be able to launch 20+ counter-missiles - and ONLY missiles, railguns and energy weapons dont work)
..
We know the Berserker fires off-the-shelf cruise missiles.

So, what part of the following makes you think, in any way, that this only applies to the Berserker?

It definitely doesn't apply just to the Berserker, we also see DB2p171's note appear on DB3 pg 95 (Smasher) and 103 (Dreadnought)

There's nothing special noted about this launcher, at all.

The interesting thing is that DB3 does note something special: the smasher uses batteries "identical to the Berserker".

It might be something specific to Kreeghor launchers since those appear to be the only ones noting this benefit.

Perhaps this unique benefit explains some of the Kreeghor dominance as an empire?

The Doombringer, however, does NOT say that. Nor do ANY of those descriptions remotely imply that its a unique feature. Like many other rules, its just incosistently printed. (See the -2 for shooting off-handed above, or the rules about FSE weapons, or firing a rifle one-handed, which are printed in obscure areas (usually the description of an item) and not in a "rules" area).

You still haven't demonstrated that this is actually a general rule.
Just that you really, really, really want it to be one and that you want these missiles to violate the rules to do so (tripling their speed for instance)
The burden is on YOU to prove that this rule applies to everything.
Especially since otherwise we can simply point to the rule on page 36 of Fleets that states that you can interdict CMs with SRMs in one ship (a later book to boot) and your entire claim falls apart on THAT basis.
Or we can go to page 87 of Fleets that tells us that Cruise Missiles can not be fired from less than 1 mile...
...which would make it hard to use that "if fired from under 1 mile" rule. which makes your claim fall apart on THAT basis.

Face it. Your trying to support your personal headcanon here, based on interpreting one rule that is not repeated anywhere else, that requires ignoring the listed rules in several other sections AND that is explicitly contradicted in a newer book. All on the claim that the text of one specific weapon is a universal rule and not actually... just the text of that one weapon
Seriously. Occams Razor here.
Weapon has text about how that weapon works.
That text contradicts dozens of rules in other books.
Logical solution is that it is a special snowflake and is published because that one weapon violates those rules. Not that it is an unmentioned stealth rewrite of the entire combat system. And make no mistake. Claiming that something is indestructible and immune to weapons is a flat out change to the combat system.

literally no one, not even the TGE, uses WMD in the Three Galaxies.
They dont bombard planets with Cruise Missiles, either.
(They stop at blasting cities with lasers from orbit)

Not wasting missiles destroying a planet is probably just a matter of economics, cheaper to use your 'effectively unlimited' weapon to raze a planet than waste expensive missiles that are best reserved for quickly killing stuff that can shoot back at you, like other ships.

Nope. Its specifically part of the Lanator Accords. No WMDs. It traces back to the Dominators and fear of WMDs instilled by them. Much like the Honor Harrington universe, its literally the one thing you can do that will make EVERYONE turn on you. You start indiscriminately bombarding planets with WMDs, and EVERYONE else will turn on you and attack. Because you're crazy and cant be trusted to be civilized. It is noted that the TGE limits itself to laser bombardments of crops and resources, and then they leave the planet to starve, because that is technically not against the rules.

You mean the accords that only the CCW and TGE signed?
That...
not one of the 3-6 Spugorth signed
the Naruni didn't sign
the Golgans didn't sign
the UWW didn't sign
the Kl'zon didn't sign
the Exlies didn't sign
the Cosmoknights didn't sign
the Demons didn't sign
the Deevils didn't sign
the <fill in the blank for any of the hundreds of powers> didn't sign?

Oh, and as of DB 13... the Khreegor are using CMs on planets (page 84, 40 singularity cruise missile launchers. Primary purpose Anti-Planet


So yeah... lets not have this nonsense about "no one is nuking planets"

Dreadnought Horn Cannons vs a planet basically operate like WMB anyway, max damage to 60ft radius and 2d6x10 to an added 200ft, so you're looking at a 520ft diameter circle of destruction.

Lasers are actually better: at +50ft per simultaneous blast (max 3) adding 150 to the initially-lower 50+100 actually gives you 300ft radius (600ft diameter circle) adding up to more than a horn cannon.

Only because anti-ship missiles are relatively "clean" weapons (like Rifts Mutli-warhead Nuke LRMs). Also, however, laser bombardment doesn't leave radioactive areas and can be relatively precisely targeted.

Anti-ship missiles aren't clean. At least not in canon. They can be in your game... but DB 13, page 100 says otherwise
Just a general FYI

(And yes, I know that you won't actually read or respond to any of this)

[Warshield73]

The problem with all of this analysis is that none of the ships or weapons really has tactical or strategic intent to them. Ships are just designed to be cool for PC's to use or destroy and the fact that the Three Galaxies are depicted in just seven books with 5 different authors if you count KS. This is the single biggest reason for all the inconsistencies you see which are substantial even for PB which has a serious problem to begin with. None of the ships as designed are really meant to work in fleets or flotillas and weapons don't really have any uniformly defined functions. Good example of what I'm talking about is in the Expanse where you can see weapons with specific capabilities having specific tactical and strategic uses but in PW this just isn't possible.

This is a common problem in sci-fi like Star Wars and Star Trek where ships are created for a narrative purpose and then they try and make it fit in the fleets later.

I love the Phase World setting, truthfully I think I have run it more than Rifts Earth as when it came out that is all my players wanted to play, but it is THE most broken setting in PBs canon and each new book only seems to make it worse.

[eliakon]

The problem with all of this analysis is that none of the ships or weapons really has tactical or strategic intent to them. Ships are just designed to be cool for PC's to use or destroy and the fact that the Three Galaxies are depicted in just seven books with 5 different authors if you count KS. This is the single biggest reason for all the inconsistencies you see which are substantial even for PB which has a serious problem to begin with. None of the ships as designed are really meant to work in fleets or flotillas and weapons don't really have any uniformly defined functions. Good example of what I'm talking about is in the Expanse where you can see weapons with specific capabilities having specific tactical and strategic uses but in PW this just isn't possible.

This is a common problem in sci-fi like Star Wars and Star Trek where ships are created for a narrative purpose and then they try and make it fit in the fleets later.

I love the Phase World setting, truthfully I think I have run it more than Rifts Earth as when it came out that is all my players wanted to play, but it is THE most broken setting in PBs canon and each new book only seems to make it worse.

Oh yeah.
I have been working on and off on trying to make a sensible version of the 3Gs that I can run extended games in with out wincing.
its sllloooooowwww going.
Which is where all the questions are from actually.
Right now I'm distilling out all the official tech and rules.
Then I can try and build some ships that aren't 18th century gunships in spaaaaaace!

I will probably end up just posting some of the items here as stuff sold by a company or something.

[Axelmania]

that is a MASSIVE thing to leave out.
It means that point defense works on everything but the largest Capital and Super-Capital ships...
...hardly "missiles can not be stopped at all"

Do you recall if there were rules hidden somewhere about being able to shoot down missiles that were aimed at allies? I could see that being an important role of fighters if so.

What ever it is, we don't see it on any of the Kreeghor ships in DB 13.

Perhaps a cost-saving measure?

but since we KNOW that everyone but the CAF, and possibly the UWW bombards planets as per the written text it isn't really an issue...
Like seriously, we know.
Look at the purpose of the various Cruise Missile batteries on the ships in DB13... "Anti-Instillation" and "Bombardment"
Then there is the Splugorth with their mass driver that is explicitly for planetary bombardment...
Not to mention that the Lanator Accords are between the CCW and the TGE, and the TGE cheats on them (they have bombarded rebel worlds)

Lasers won't work on everything, perhaps "Impervious to Energy" enchantments are widespread so you need to resort to more expensive means in that case?

Unless someone was able to fire back (land-based long-range cannons?) I'd think something like gravity/rail cannons from space would be a cheaper alternative to deplete ITE shields.

Heck even the LRMs in Manhunter have bigger Blast Radii

I'm flashing back to the Rifts Conversion Book having notes on taking MD missiles to SDC settings and doing something like multiplying damage by 5 and blast radius by 10, maybe doing that to all phase world missiles would bring them into better conceptual balance with Rifts-missiles?

Triax 1 - under the Predator. Actually might have been Sourcebook 1 (non-revised), but i saw it in Triax 1. (checked) Yep, SB1.

Energy Rifles or Light Rail Guns and other normal weapons can be substituted in an emergency or as a back-up weapon. Space limitations and the bulk of the armor limit the additional weapons to one. The weapon can only be fired by the left hand, thus all right-handed pilots are -2 to strike.

Since the only reason it can "only be fired by the left hand" is because the right arm is a giant pulse weapon, the -2 to strike is for firing off-handed.

I don't even feel a need to check, this felt familiar after I read your reminding of it!

Beginning to despise the "handed" mechanics though, as I begin to wonder how much that is actually about the coordination of the fingers rather than the coordination of the arm itself. Pulling a trigger is a pretty simple thing (in terms of fingers) compared to something like handwriting. Stuff like swinging a bat is more about the arm than the hand specifically, so I think it should be "right-armed" or "left-armed" or maybe even "right-sided" or "left-sided". Or "right dominant" or "left dominant".

Terms like "dextromanual" and "sinistromanual" too, far too much emphasis on the "hand". There are left-handed and right-handed boxers but I don't think using the hand as a club has much to do with the skill of the hand and more to do with sidedness of an entire limb if not the entire body.

Nope. Read it again. Large vessels CANNOT DODGE even one missile. The interdiction rules dont have anything to do with dodging, at all. Smaller vessels could DODGE a small volley of missiles, but again, that has nothing to do with interdiction.

The relationship between the sections is simply in defining parameters for the phrase "large vessels", since that is what the interdiction rules apply to.

Nope. Its specifically part of the Lanator Accords. No WMDs. It traces back to the Dominators and fear of WMDs instilled by them. Much like the Honor Harrington universe, its literally the one thing you can do that will make EVERYONE turn on you. You start indiscriminately bombarding planets with WMDs, and EVERYONE else will turn on you and attack. Because you're crazy and cant be trusted to be civilized. It is noted that the TGE limits itself to laser bombardments of crops and resources, and then they leave the planet to starve, because that is technically not against the rules.

This must be stuff from a later book which I hadn't read yet or forgot about.

I guess my point is that these laser weapons have larger radius of effect than at least some mini-missiles, so whether or not something is a WMB shouldn't be about whether or not it's an explosion, but something like a minimum radius cutoff. Is that given somewhere?

Only because anti-ship missiles are relatively "clean" weapons (like Rifts Mutli-warhead Nuke LRMs). Also, however, laser bombardment doesn't leave radioactive areas and can be relatively precisely targeted.

Missiles can also be precisely targeted, and I think only nuclear missiles would leave radioactive areas, so at that point we're not talking about WMDs so much as nuclear weapons.

Of course: radioactive threats might also exist from doing stuff like self-destructing a nuclear-powered power armor / ship / robot. This makes me wonder if there are certain ways of only self-destructing PARTS of these things while leaving the nuclear battery intact, to avoid violating the accords?

Of course, the Kreeghor might simply say "they blew it up, we would never intentionally puncture our nuclear batteries!" and it might be hard to prove whether or not the reactor leaked accidentally or intentionally.

page 36 of Fleets that states that you can interdict CMs with SRMs in one ship (a later book to boot) and your entire claim falls apart on THAT basis.

One thing about that counter: SRMs have a range beyond 1 mile so perhaps they could be used to interdict CMs fired from beyond 1 mile even if the "can't interdict <1 mile" rule applied to more than just Kreeghor ships?

Or we can go to page 87 of Fleets that tells us that Cruise Missiles can not be fired from less than 1 mile...

Huh... would that mean Kreeghor ships are even more unique since they are presumably the only 3 exceptions to this rule?

Although I had thought that the giant CCW robot (Battlemaster?) also had a "fire cruise at close range" strategy.

Oh, and as of DB 13... the Khreegor are using CMs on planets (page 84, 40 singularity cruise missile launchers. Primary purpose Anti-Planet

It could be possible to design a weapon for illegal purposes (or to have already designed it, is pg 84's weapon new or possibly pre-treaty?)

My guess is that Kreeghor wouldn't abide by their treaties if a conflict fell apart into total war.

Also is it possible there might be things that fall outside the treaty, like if you need to nuke a Demon Planet or a Star Hive? Like maybe if it only applies to certain types of planets? I guess I need to re-check DB13.

So yeah... lets not have this nonsense about "no one is nuking planets"

Anti-ship missiles aren't clean. At least not in canon. They can be in your game... but DB 13, page 100 says otherwise
Just a general FYI

ALL anti-ship missiles or maybe just most?

Good example of what I'm talking about is in the Expanse where you can see weapons with specific capabilities having specific tactical and strategic uses but in PW this just isn't possible.

Expanse space-battles are so realistic and cutting-edge compared to all scifi I've seen before that it's hard to imagine any present RPG emulating them.

A lot of sci-fi deals with situation that RPGs simply don't have rules for (yet!). Heck even inside-ship martial arts in shows like Andromeda, basic stuff like hanging onto an overhead pipe to get leverage for a swinging drop ship, not even GURPS deals with how that would work much better than your usual kick.

Fleets of the Three Galaxy
Page 36
Short-Range Missile Launchers (32)
These are used for … to shoot down incoming cruise missiles
volleys of four or eight

I think that pretty much puts to rest the claim that Cruise Missiles can only be shot down by volleys of 20+ cruise missiles if 4-8 SRMs are the standard point defense for that purpose.

Is the pg 36 ship less than 1000ft long?

[eliakon]

that is a MASSIVE thing to leave out.
It means that point defense works on everything but the largest Capital and Super-Capital ships...
...hardly "missiles can not be stopped at all"

Do you recall if there were rules hidden somewhere about being able to shoot down missiles that were aimed at allies? I could see that being an important role of fighters if so.

No hidden rule needed.
Anyone is allowed to shoot at anything. A missile is a target and may be shot at by anyone. There is no magical 'immunity' either from the target OR allies (unless the specific text gives such immunity like the weirdness with the Berserker)

What ever it is, we don't see it on any of the Kreeghor ships in DB 13.

Perhaps a cost-saving measure?

perhaps... but it still doesn't change that the only ship that has it is the Berserker

but since we KNOW that everyone but the CAF, and possibly the UWW bombards planets as per the written text it isn't really an issue...
Like seriously, we know.
Look at the purpose of the various Cruise Missile batteries on the ships in DB13... "Anti-Instillation" and "Bombardment"
Then there is the Splugorth with their mass driver that is explicitly for planetary bombardment...
Not to mention that the Lanator Accords are between the CCW and the TGE, and the TGE cheats on them (they have bombarded rebel worlds)

Lasers won't work on everything, perhaps "Impervious to Energy" enchantments are widespread so you need to resort to more expensive means in that case?
Unless someone was able to fire back (land-based long-range cannons?) I'd think something like gravity/rail cannons from space would be a cheaper alternative to deplete ITE shields.

ItE is only widespread if a GM rule zeroes it in. Because as written... they are pretty rare.
Not to mention they are not ItE 'shields' they make the ship itself immune.

Heck even the LRMs in Manhunter have bigger Blast Radii

I'm flashing back to the Rifts Conversion Book having notes on taking MD missiles to SDC settings and doing something like multiplying damage by 5 and blast radius by 10, maybe doing that to all phase world missiles would bring them into better conceptual balance with Rifts-missiles?

That still doesn't address the underlying issues. It just makes them worse to be honest.
Because now you have absurd stuff like mini-missiles that out perform LRMs...

Nope. Its specifically part of the Lanator Accords. No WMDs. It traces back to the Dominators and fear of WMDs instilled by them. Much like the Honor Harrington universe, its literally the one thing you can do that will make EVERYONE turn on you. You start indiscriminately bombarding planets with WMDs, and EVERYONE else will turn on you and attack. Because you're crazy and cant be trusted to be civilized. It is noted that the TGE limits itself to laser bombardments of crops and resources, and then they leave the planet to starve, because that is technically not against the rules.

This must be stuff from a later book which I hadn't read yet or forgot about.

No, it is from his own personal head canon as it is not in any published material which is why you haven't read it.
This is made abundantly clear by the fact that the Splugorth routinely use Mass Drivers on planets, that the TGE uses singularity missiles on planets, that cruise missiles ARE WMDs... you know all the stuff that he is ignoring to push his personal head canon here.

I guess my point is that these laser weapons have larger radius of effect than at least some mini-missiles, so whether or not something is a WMB shouldn't be about whether or not it's an explosion, but something like a minimum radius cutoff. Is that given somewhere?

It doesn't matter. There are zero laws on WMDs in the Phase World setting so don't worry about it.
The Lanator Accords between the CCW and the TGE (the two parties that signed it) don't cover "WMDs" they cover what weapons are supposed to be used against planets, VERY different.

Only because anti-ship missiles are relatively "clean" weapons (like Rifts Mutli-warhead Nuke LRMs). Also, however, laser bombardment doesn't leave radioactive areas and can be relatively precisely targeted.

Missiles can also be precisely targeted, and I think only nuclear missiles would leave radioactive areas, so at that point we're not talking about WMDs so much as nuclear weapons.

Anti-ship missiles are NOT clean nukes, they are explicitly, by the rules thermo-nuclear weapons like those found in CS Navy. Tetsuya's claim to the contrary is just another example of his rampant headcanon at work

Of course: radioactive threats might also exist from doing stuff like self-destructing a nuclear-powered power armor / ship / robot. This makes me wonder if there are certain ways of only self-destructing PARTS of these things while leaving the nuclear battery intact, to avoid violating the accords?

Again, the accords don't cover this except in Tetsuya's mind.

Of course, the Kreeghor might simply say "they blew it up, we would never intentionally puncture our nuclear batteries!" and it might be hard to prove whether or not the reactor leaked accidentally or intentionally.

Or you know... not care at all since there isn't anything covering it in the slightest?
Probably that one

page 36 of Fleets that states that you can interdict CMs with SRMs in one ship (a later book to boot) and your entire claim falls apart on THAT basis.

One thing about that counter: SRMs have a range beyond 1 mile so perhaps they could be used to interdict CMs fired from beyond 1 mile even if the "can't interdict <1 mile" rule applied to more than just Kreeghor ships?

His claim was that CMs can only be stopped by volleys of 20+ CMs.
1-8 SRMs are not 20+ CMs.

Or we can go to page 87 of Fleets that tells us that Cruise Missiles can not be fired from less than 1 mile...

Huh... would that mean Kreeghor ships are even more unique since they are presumably the only 3 exceptions to this rule?

Although I had thought that the giant CCW robot (Battlemaster?) also had a "fire cruise at close range" strategy.

Nope. not at all.
It simply means that the Berserker has a unique weapon and that ship has a unique weapon.
That is why those rules are in the WEAPON text and not in the general rules... because they do not apply to all missiles everywhere but to those specific one off ships and their specific one off weapon.
That is what I am trying to point out. Tetsuya is trying to argue that the specifics of a unique weapon are actually the rules for the entire class of weapons... something that I can prove beyond a doubt is impossible because I have two weapons that have text that contradicts his weapon text and that only works if that text applies to that one specific weapon and not CMs as a whole.

Oh, and as of DB 13... the Khreegor are using CMs on planets (page 84, 40 singularity cruise missile launchers. Primary purpose Anti-Planet

It could be possible to design a weapon for illegal purposes (or to have already designed it, is pg 84's weapon new or possibly pre-treaty?)

My guess is that Kreeghor wouldn't abide by their treaties if a conflict fell apart into total war.

Also is it possible there might be things that fall outside the treaty, like if you need to nuke a Demon Planet or a Star Hive? Like maybe if it only applies to certain types of planets? I guess I need to re-check DB13.

Or you know... the TGE is breaking the treaty on a regular basis?

Anti-ship missiles aren't clean. At least not in canon. They can be in your game... but DB 13, page 100 says otherwise
Just a general FYI

ALL anti-ship missiles or maybe just most?[/quote]
ALL CM nuclear and AM weapons.

Fleets of the Three Galaxy
Page 36
Short-Range Missile Launchers (32)
These are used for … to shoot down incoming cruise missiles
volleys of four or eight

I think that pretty much puts to rest the claim that Cruise Missiles can only be shot down by volleys of 20+ cruise missiles if 4-8 SRMs are the standard point defense for that purpose.

Is the pg 36 ship less than 1000ft long?

It Doesn't Matter. The claim he made was that the flavor text for the Berserker applied to ALL CMs and thus volleys of CMs can only be shot down by using counter volleys of 20+ CMs and that even then some of them got through.
This is total rubbish and applies to that one, unique weapon and not to all CMs everywhere.
And this weapon here proves that as 1-8 SRMs are NOT 20+ CMs.

[pad300]

Oh yeah.
I have been working on and off on trying to make a sensible version of the 3Gs that I can run extended games in with out wincing.
its sllloooooowwww going.
Which is where all the questions are from actually.
Right now I'm distilling out all the official tech and rules.
Then I can try and build some ships that aren't 18th century gunships in spaaaaaace!

I will probably end up just posting some of the items here as stuff sold by a company or something.

Good luck to you... First Q I would think you need to decide is:

Do you believe in Palladium's decidedly unrealistic physics of weapons and armour scaling in-efficiently (ie. 30 lb guns doing on slightly less damage than 300 lb guns... )

(Note, with anything even vaguely fun and a palladium ruleset, you are going to end up with unrealistic physics generally.)

[Axelmania]

that is a MASSIVE thing to leave out.
It means that point defense works on everything but the largest Capital and Super-Capital ships...
...hardly "missiles can not be stopped at all"

Do you recall if there were rules hidden somewhere about being able to shoot down missiles that were aimed at allies? I could see that being an important role of fighters if so.

No hidden rule needed.
Anyone is allowed to shoot at anything. A missile is a target and may be shot at by anyone. There is no magical 'immunity' either from the target OR allies (unless the specific text gives such immunity like the weirdness with the Berserker)

It's more of a timing issue, like what sort of window exists to shoot it down, possibly requiring GM calculations on distance from launcher>target and missile speed, but the grey area is actual reaction time.

the only ship that has it is the Berserker

In DB2, mentioned earlier that DB3 has 2 other Kreeghor ships with it also.

ItE is only widespread if a GM rule zeroes it in. Because as written... they are pretty rare.
Not to mention they are not ItE 'shields' they make the ship itself immune.

Probably those who aren't UWW/Splugorth lack it, though I have no clue why, given how useful it would be.

I'm actually thinking about ground installations which might lack force fields for whatever reason.

now you have absurd stuff like mini-missiles that out perform LRMs...

3G minis outperforming Rifts LRMs wouldn't bother me, especially if the Naruni/Splugorth had a monopoly of those on Earth explaining their dominance.

Anti-ship missiles are NOT clean nukes, they are explicitly, by the rules thermo-nuclear weapons like those found in CS Navy.

Was that made explicit in later books? I guess I figured you'd have non-nuclear Plasma or Armor-Piercing missiles in the Phase World setting much like in Rifts Earth, but I'm more familiar with the first three dimension books than the more recent two.