Elemental Fusionists Human Only?

[Daniel Stoker]

I never said it was brought back in time, let alone he wanted it to be. I said that since this is Palladium, which isn't known for catching errors or sticking to stuff when something cool can be done with it instead, I'd think the simplest answer is that he originally wanted it to be exclusive to North America as their amazing new achievement, but then he and/or other writers decided to toss that and let this group have it too, then this group, then that. I'd be willing to bet he didn't spend much time at all thinking of an answer for how that would fit in what he originally wrote in the game text.


Daniel Stoker

[dreicunan]

Its more likely that RUE is wrong, as there are dozens of other statements in RUE that are unequivocally wrong (North America a wilderness that is hard to travel around and unexplored - except you can literally charter commercial flights, etc).

This is Palladium, isn't the simplest answer likely the one where Kevin wanted it that way and wrote it that way in the book, then they (Him, other writers, whomever) decided to give them to other groups anyway because it’d be cool or whatever for those groups to have them?


Daniel Stoker

do you have any evidence whatsoever that kevin "wanted" techno-wizardry to have been brought back in time to dozens of different groups across the megaverse and in different time periods?

because if you don't, then it is much more reasonable to default to "lots of people have figured out this same concept" than "extremely complicated stable time loop that nobody knows about or discusses".

i mean, if this was Dr Who, where time travel is a central theme of the whole thing... sure. time travel would be the reasonable explanation. since this is not a game where time travel is a central theme, that isn't a reasonable explanation.

It is an entirely reasonable explanation based on features of the setting that I have already cited in a prior post. Those features don't need to be central to the setting to make an explanation reasonable, they just need to be a thing. "Reasonable" does not mean "most likely." If you want to reconcile all canon statements as written, temporodimensional displacement is really the only explanation (and as Axel noted, the ubiquity of humans throughout the megaverse lends credence to the idea). Now, if you can cite a clear statement of some other place having been the first to develop techno-wizardry, or that even details completely independent development that would be different; I don't recall any such statement, but if it exists I would welcome being educated about it.

Now, if you are fine with saying that RUE is wrong about techno-wizardry on p. 128, then saying that this is a concept that has been repeatedly figured out by lots of different people is also perfectly reasonable. It is entirely possible to prefer one of these positions without feeling the need to declare the other position to be unreasonable.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Rifts Japan page 89 states cannonically that H-Brand techno-wizards independantly discovered techno-wizardy on their own, which is why there are TW items in Japan.

So we've already gotten proof that all techno-wizardy everywhere in the Megaverse did not origionate in Lazlo. It's littearlly a case of "Mixing Magic and Tech sounded like a good idea, so a nation where both were embraced (H-Brand, unlike the Republic and Empire, embraces both), it didn't take very long to figure out how to mix the two, though it did cost a lot in experiments.

[dreicunan]

Rifts Japan page 89 states cannonically that H-Brand techno-wizards independantly discovered techno-wizardy on their own, which is why there are TW items in Japan.

So we've already gotten proof that all techno-wizardy everywhere in the Megaverse did not origionate in Lazlo. It's littearlly a case of "Mixing Magic and Tech sounded like a good idea, so a nation where both were embraced (H-Brand, unlike the Republic and Empire, embraces both), it didn't take very long to figure out how to mix the two, though it did cost a lot in experiments.

Great find! Thanks for that. I do feel compelled to point out that it wasn't merely a case of a nation embracing both developing it, however, but that a team of tech ninjas got wiped out by mystic ninjas, and so the tech clan started looking specifically for ways to counter the mystic ninjas, and in 99 PA they made the break-through; however, that doesn't diminish the point that a driven group of magic users and high technology users managed to develop it.

[AlanGunhouse]

Some items from the China world books are kind of like Bio-wizardry or Techno-wizardry, but not quite...

[Axelmania]

Ninja TWs with Aikido vs Vanguard TWs with Assassin: fight?

[Shark_Force]

It is an entirely reasonable explanation based on features of the setting that I have already cited in a prior post. Those features don't need to be central to the setting to make an explanation reasonable, they just need to be a thing. "Reasonable" does not mean "most likely." If you want to reconcile all canon statements as written, temporodimensional displacement is really the only explanation (and as Axel noted, the ubiquity of humans throughout the megaverse lends credence to the idea). Now, if you can cite a clear statement of some other place having been the first to develop techno-wizardry, or that even details completely independent development that would be different; I don't recall any such statement, but if it exists I would welcome being educated about it.

Now, if you are fine with saying that RUE is wrong about techno-wizardry on p. 128, then saying that this is a concept that has been repeatedly figured out by lots of different people is also perfectly reasonable. It is entirely possible to prefer one of these positions without feeling the need to declare the other position to be unreasonable.

it isn't entirely reasonable at all. that might be a theoretical very distant possibility in the game rules, but practically speaking time travel is not part of the setting (or at least, not into the past... there are a few times where someone appears to have maybe been sent forward in time. otherwise the setting pretty much doesn't acknowledge time travel in any meaningful way).

[Nekira Sudacne]

It is an entirely reasonable explanation based on features of the setting that I have already cited in a prior post. Those features don't need to be central to the setting to make an explanation reasonable, they just need to be a thing. "Reasonable" does not mean "most likely." If you want to reconcile all canon statements as written, temporodimensional displacement is really the only explanation (and as Axel noted, the ubiquity of humans throughout the megaverse lends credence to the idea). Now, if you can cite a clear statement of some other place having been the first to develop techno-wizardry, or that even details completely independent development that would be different; I don't recall any such statement, but if it exists I would welcome being educated about it.

Now, if you are fine with saying that RUE is wrong about techno-wizardry on p. 128, then saying that this is a concept that has been repeatedly figured out by lots of different people is also perfectly reasonable. It is entirely possible to prefer one of these positions without feeling the need to declare the other position to be unreasonable.

it isn't entirely reasonable at all. that might be a theoretical very distant possibility in the game rules, but practically speaking time travel is not part of the setting (or at least, not into the past... there are a few times where someone appears to have maybe been sent forward in time. otherwise the setting pretty much doesn't acknowledge time travel in any meaningful way).

Every random rift that opens on Rift Earth at a nexus or stone pyramid has a 10% chance of being a Time Rift, which leads forward and backward in time with equal impunity, being able to open a time portal to any era, from just before the cataclysm to hundreds of millions of years in the past to the time of the Dinosaurs To the far future and everything in between.

[Axelmania]

There is a sense of "you can only go forward" from temporal mages' time travel spell being limited in that direction, but accidental rifts seem to be more flexible than the teleport-ish "Time Warp: Fast Forward"

It does make me wonder though: if you jump into a random rift to the past and you're a Shifter, can you use your usual power to return home to return to your original time?

Plus, having visited that "dimension" (the past) does that now allow you to create rifts to the past?

[Nekira Sudacne]

There is a sense of "you can only go forward" from temporal mages' time travel spell being limited in that direction, but accidental rifts seem to be more flexible than the teleport-ish "Time Warp: Fast Forward"

It does make me wonder though: if you jump into a random rift to the past and you're a Shifter, can you use your usual power to return home to return to your original time?

No, that's why it's a time rift and not a dimensional rift. You're not in a different dimension just a different time.

Plus, having visited that "dimension" (the past) does that now allow you to create rifts to the past?

negative.

[AlanGunhouse]

For all we know, all rifts are rifts in time, it may just be that in most the difference in times is in seconds or minutes not years or centuries, and thus is not noticed.

[Nekira Sudacne]

For all we know, all rifts are rifts in time, it may just be that in most the difference in times is in seconds or minutes not years or centuries, and thus is not noticed.

Eh, no reason to assume that's the case given the lack of evidence for it. Especially as Dimensional Rifts and Time Rifts are refered to seperately.

[Axelmania]

It does make me wonder though: if you jump into a random rift to the past and you're a Shifter, can you use your usual power to return home to return to your original time?

No, that's why it's a time rift and not a dimensional rift. You're not in a different dimension just a different time.

It seems like earlier times can be considered dimensions too though, like DB7p24 "Table of Dimensions" having "Rifts Earth" / "Chaos Earth" / "Chaos Earth prior" outcomes.

Every random rift that opens on Rift Earth at a nexus or stone pyramid has a 10% chance of being a Time Rift, which leads forward and backward in time with equal impunity

RUE 195 "Periodic Rift" outcome "Time Rift" specifically says "this rift in space and time", so it's both.

Plus "worlds in addition" seems to imply that connecting to times other than Rifts Earth modern would also be different dimensions, even if they are Rifts' past.

It ends with "a different world and/or a different time" so I guess it's a bit more flexible and it might just be "appears to be the past/future" alternate dimensions rather than "actual past/future" ones.

Where do you find the "equal impunity" part?

Dimensional Rifts and Time Rifts are refered to seperately.

yet RUE 193 refers to:

a "Rift" in space and time

not "space OR time", so perhaps it's always both, but can be primarily be one more than the other. Like a primarily-Dimensional rift might just be "one second into the future" while a primarily-Time Rift might merely be "one inch forward"

[Nekira Sudacne]

*opens mouth, closes it*

Allright, point to you, Axel.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I will however note, Transdimensional TMNT did have spells explictly for going backwards in time as well as forwards, so they're not unprecidented in palladium, just currently Unlicened. Maybe that's why they've never been reprinted, the Mechanics for time travel in Palladium were licenced from TMNT's time mechanics, and so Palladium can't print them without getting the licence back?

[Shark_Force]

Every random rift that opens on Rift Earth at a nexus or stone pyramid has a 10% chance of being a Time Rift, which leads forward and backward in time with equal impunity, being able to open a time portal to any era, from just before the cataclysm to hundreds of millions of years in the past to the time of the Dinosaurs To the far future and everything in between.

sure, as i said, it's a theoretical distant possibility that every place that has techno-wizardry got it from time travel and it all originates in rifts earth north america. but the setting does not acknowledge the possibility in the slightest. how many NPCs do we have that came back in time through rifts? how many groups of any size mention time travel in their description whatsoever?

it's a theoretical possibility in the game rules that coincidentally hundreds of technowizards were shipped all across the megaverse to dozens of different cultures and worlds and dimensions, and that they imprinted that knowledge into the instincts of the handful of creatures that naturally create TW devices (or devices so similar as to be functionally indistinct from TW devices). but that's just not a reasonable conclusion when the setting as a whole pretty much ignores the possibility of time travel entirely, even if the mechanics allow for the theoretical possibility, because that would be the only place the setting had ever actually used that theoretical possibility of time travel for anything even a little bit meaningful.

[AlanGunhouse]

Time travel is generally ignored by the setting because time paradoxes are a real pain to try to handle if they happen during play.

[Axelmania]

how many NPCs do we have that came back in time through rifts? how many groups of any size mention time travel in their description whatsoever?

The Hadesians/Dyvalians who appeared millenia ago because of a freak accident during the start of the Minion War.

it's a theoretical possibility in the game rules that coincidentally hundreds of technowizards were shipped all across the megaverse to dozens of different cultures and worlds and dimensions, and that they imprinted that knowledge into the instincts of the handful of creatures that naturally create TW devices (or devices so similar as to be functionally indistinct from TW devices). but that's just not a reasonable conclusion

Now that we have the "Ninja Techno-Wizard" example, I believe that is grounds to re-examine how to interpret whatever text referred to North America.

I think it's entirely possibly that the TW we see in places like Russia or Wormwood or even the United Worlds of Warlock might've descended from North American TW, but it's also plausible it could be independently developed.

when the setting as a whole pretty much ignores the possibility of time travel entirely, even if the mechanics allow for the theoretical possibility, because that would be the only place the setting had ever actually used that theoretical possibility of time travel for anything even a little bit meaningful.

WB35 (Megaverse in Flames) pg 16 "The First Wave Arrives":

both demons and Deevils were sending their first waves of troops to take and secure Rifts Earth when hundreds of thousands of them were swallowed by the surging forces of magic and chaos.
A small number of demons and Deevils were plunged into Earth’s past, when magic was weak and the ancestors of humans were just beginning to climb down out of the jungle.

The ending of the Golden Age and the nuclear warfare which caused the ley lines to erupt are essentially the reason why there were many demons on Earth to begin with in the BTS/HU-esque era.

Which of course, creates all kinds of interesting paradoxes if you wonder if perhaps demons might've been involved in stoking hatred between nations leading to the nuclear warfare to begin with.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Eh, I have to say yes and no. Stoking hatred and divisions is what Dyvaals do for funsies, but Humanity is quite capable of finding reasons to hate each-other on their own. It's more likely they added fuel on already-existing fires.

[Axelmania]

Even something simply as the cataclysm happening 2 months earlier than expected might have some butterfly effect...

Perhaps they might've not wanted to change the time due to some kind of celestial alignment, perhaps just guarantee that nobody comes and prevents it?

[dreicunan]

It is an entirely reasonable explanation based on features of the setting that I have already cited in a prior post. Those features don't need to be central to the setting to make an explanation reasonable, they just need to be a thing. "Reasonable" does not mean "most likely." If you want to reconcile all canon statements as written, temporodimensional displacement is really the only explanation (and as Axel noted, the ubiquity of humans throughout the megaverse lends credence to the idea). Now, if you can cite a clear statement of some other place having been the first to develop techno-wizardry, or that even details completely independent development that would be different; I don't recall any such statement, but if it exists I would welcome being educated about it.

Now, if you are fine with saying that RUE is wrong about techno-wizardry on p. 128, then saying that this is a concept that has been repeatedly figured out by lots of different people is also perfectly reasonable. It is entirely possible to prefer one of these positions without feeling the need to declare the other position to be unreasonable.

it isn't entirely reasonable at all. that might be a theoretical very distant possibility in the game rules, but practically speaking time travel is not part of the setting (or at least, not into the past... there are a few times where someone appears to have maybe been sent forward in time. otherwise the setting pretty much doesn't acknowledge time travel in any meaningful way).

Axelmania and Nekira have already cited what I would have cited to point out that, while perhaps not common, travel backwards in time, especially interdimensionally, is most definitely a part of the setting. I would also point out once again that "reasonable" does not mean "most likely."

[Shark_Force]

Axelmania and Nekira have already cited what I would have cited to point out that, while perhaps not common, travel backwards in time, especially interdimensionally, is most definitely a part of the setting. I would also point out once again that "reasonable" does not mean "most likely."

if i were to propose something that was a one-in-a-million chance as an explanation to something that has a much simpler, more reasonable, plausible explanation, then no, that one-in-a-million reason is NOT a reasonable explanation unless there is some additional very conclusive evidence supporting it.

is there time travel in the setting? sure. is it a reasonable explanation when there is a much simpler explanation that fits other available facts? no. no it is not. particularly when that one-in-a-million explanation (and yes, sending multiple technowizards throughout space and time to every single location where techno-wizardry was introduced *is* one-in-a-million) is taking something that the author clearly considers to be a minor element of the setting at best and not bothering to point out that it's being used here.

just like it is *possible* that every single UFO witnessed are actually alien spacecraft, but in the absence of additional supporting evidence it is more reasonable to conclude that they're much more likely to be flying objects that have not been properly identified of an earthly origin. the fact that they *could* theoretically be alien spacecraft does not make the explanation that they're all alien spacecraft reasonable when there is another explanation that is much more likely.

[dreicunan]

Axelmania and Nekira have already cited what I would have cited to point out that, while perhaps not common, travel backwards in time, especially interdimensionally, is most definitely a part of the setting. I would also point out once again that "reasonable" does not mean "most likely."

if i were to propose something that was a one-in-a-million chance as an explanation to something that has a much simpler, more reasonable, plausible explanation, then no, that one-in-a-million reason is NOT a reasonable explanation unless there is some additional very conclusive evidence supporting it.

is there time travel in the setting? sure. is it a reasonable explanation when there is a much simpler explanation that fits other available facts? no. no it is not. particularly when that one-in-a-million explanation (and yes, sending multiple technowizards throughout space and time to every single location where techno-wizardry was introduced *is* one-in-a-million) is taking something that the author clearly considers to be a minor element of the setting at best and not bothering to point out that it's being used here.

just like it is *possible* that every single UFO witnessed are actually alien spacecraft, but in the absence of additional supporting evidence it is more reasonable to conclude that they're much more likely to be flying objects that have not been properly identified of an earthly origin. the fact that they *could* theoretically be alien spacecraft does not make the explanation that they're all alien spacecraft reasonable when there is another explanation that is much more likely.

Feel free to show your math demonstrating that it is a one-in-a-million chance.

Once again, the centrality of time travel to the setting having anything to do with how reasonable it is. It exists in the setting, and that is sufficient for it to be an explanation. That said, the name of the game line is "Rifts", and those "rifts" are in both space and time. Now, controlled time travel isn't a feature, as RUE makes clear, but we also have dinosaurs getting rifted through time, and the fact that periodic rifts include temporal rifts as an option settles for players any in-universe debate about if it is really time travel. It is.

Thus, if one wants to explain things in a way that RUE's statement about technowizardry originating in North America and being an invention of humans is correct in the most absolute sense possible, some kind of temporal shenanigans have to be part of the explanation. If you don't care about keeping it correct in the most absolute sense possible, then temporal shenanigans aren't a necessary part of it.

As surprising as this lay be for you, there doesn't have to be a definitive answer on this one (unless Kevin S. would care to comment, and while I'd be thrilled to hear his take I don't think he is very likely to comment on it). It is entirely possible for there to be more than one reasonable explanation for something.

[eliakon]

Axelmania and Nekira have already cited what I would have cited to point out that, while perhaps not common, travel backwards in time, especially interdimensionally, is most definitely a part of the setting. I would also point out once again that "reasonable" does not mean "most likely."

if i were to propose something that was a one-in-a-million chance as an explanation to something that has a much simpler, more reasonable, plausible explanation, then no, that one-in-a-million reason is NOT a reasonable explanation unless there is some additional very conclusive evidence supporting it.

is there time travel in the setting? sure. is it a reasonable explanation when there is a much simpler explanation that fits other available facts? no. no it is not. particularly when that one-in-a-million explanation (and yes, sending multiple technowizards throughout space and time to every single location where techno-wizardry was introduced *is* one-in-a-million) is taking something that the author clearly considers to be a minor element of the setting at best and not bothering to point out that it's being used here.

just like it is *possible* that every single UFO witnessed are actually alien spacecraft, but in the absence of additional supporting evidence it is more reasonable to conclude that they're much more likely to be flying objects that have not been properly identified of an earthly origin. the fact that they *could* theoretically be alien spacecraft does not make the explanation that they're all alien spacecraft reasonable when there is another explanation that is much more likely.

Feel free to show your math demonstrating that it is a one-in-a-million chance.

Once again, the centrality of time travel to the setting having anything to do with how reasonable it is. It exists in the setting, and that is sufficient for it to be an explanation. That said, the name of the game line is "Rifts", and those "rifts" are in both space and time. Now, controlled time travel isn't a feature, as RUE makes clear, but we also have dinosaurs getting rifted through time, and the fact that periodic rifts include temporal rifts as an option settles for players any in-universe debate about if it is really time travel. It is.

Thus, if one wants to explain things in a way that RUE's statement about technowizardry originating in North America and being an invention of humans is correct in the most absolute sense possible, some kind of temporal shenanigans have to be part of the explanation. If you don't care about keeping it correct in the most absolute sense possible, then temporal shenanigans aren't a necessary part of it.

As surprising as this lay be for you, there doesn't have to be a definitive answer on this one (unless Kevin S. would care to comment, and while I'd be thrilled to hear his take I don't think he is very likely to comment on it). It is entirely possible for there to be more than one reasonable explanation for something.

It is less than one in a million.
The odds of people from 101 PA going to every needed time are.... well astronomical.
Its easy math.
Each Rift is Random.
Meaning odds are (small number of targets)/Infinite number of options
That's not good odds...

And the answer is pretty obvious. It is the same answer to every other time this happens.
The answer is "this is cool so we are just ignoring the rules and retconning it"
We saw this with Biomancy (twice! Native Americans, and then Lemuria)
We saw this with Elemental Spells
We saw this with Ocean Magic
We saw this with Cloud Magic
We saw this with Nature Magic
We saw this with Living Flame Magic
We saw this with Rune Magic
We saw this with Fetishes
We saw this with Mystic Kuznya
We saw this with Mind Bleeders
We saw this with Shamans
We saw this with Gypsies
We saw this with the Chaing-Ku
We saw this with True Atlantians and "OCCs that are transformations"
We saw this with Thunderhead Galaxy book turning the CCW into a corrupt genocidal regime
We saw this when Japan suddenly gets Slammer Missiles (but better)
We saw this with Elemental fusionist becoming available
We saw this with TA Mind Bleeders
We saw this with the Kitanni becoming generic Minions
We saw this with the Kyndians becoming generic Minions
We saw this with the Splugorth becoming widely known and identified
We saw this with Wormwood becoming a major, well known hub
We saw this when (fill in the blank here)
Would you like me to keep going?

The claim that ALL OF THOSE cases were retcons... but that this one particular case wasn't really a retcon but was actually a cunningly hidden plan where in they intentionally used a feature of the game that didn't even exist at the time and wouldn't for a decade or so (seriously time travel to the past wasn't part of the game when Atlantis came out) to secretly make both the RMB statements and all the other ones true...
...is pretty absurd.

[dreicunan]

Axelmania and Nekira have already cited what I would have cited to point out that, while perhaps not common, travel backwards in time, especially interdimensionally, is most definitely a part of the setting. I would also point out once again that "reasonable" does not mean "most likely."

if i were to propose something that was a one-in-a-million chance as an explanation to something that has a much simpler, more reasonable, plausible explanation, then no, that one-in-a-million reason is NOT a reasonable explanation unless there is some additional very conclusive evidence supporting it.

is there time travel in the setting? sure. is it a reasonable explanation when there is a much simpler explanation that fits other available facts? no. no it is not. particularly when that one-in-a-million explanation (and yes, sending multiple technowizards throughout space and time to every single location where techno-wizardry was introduced *is* one-in-a-million) is taking something that the author clearly considers to be a minor element of the setting at best and not bothering to point out that it's being used here.

just like it is *possible* that every single UFO witnessed are actually alien spacecraft, but in the absence of additional supporting evidence it is more reasonable to conclude that they're much more likely to be flying objects that have not been properly identified of an earthly origin. the fact that they *could* theoretically be alien spacecraft does not make the explanation that they're all alien spacecraft reasonable when there is another explanation that is much more likely.

Feel free to show your math demonstrating that it is a one-in-a-million chance.

Once again, the centrality of time travel to the setting having anything to do with how reasonable it is. It exists in the setting, and that is sufficient for it to be an explanation. That said, the name of the game line is "Rifts", and those "rifts" are in both space and time. Now, controlled time travel isn't a feature, as RUE makes clear, but we also have dinosaurs getting rifted through time, and the fact that periodic rifts include temporal rifts as an option settles for players any in-universe debate about if it is really time travel. It is.

Thus, if one wants to explain things in a way that RUE's statement about technowizardry originating in North America and being an invention of humans is correct in the most absolute sense possible, some kind of temporal shenanigans have to be part of the explanation. If you don't care about keeping it correct in the most absolute sense possible, then temporal shenanigans aren't a necessary part of it.

As surprising as this lay be for you, there doesn't have to be a definitive answer on this one (unless Kevin S. would care to comment, and while I'd be thrilled to hear his take I don't think he is very likely to comment on it). It is entirely possible for there to be more than one reasonable explanation for something.

It is less than one in a million.
The odds of people from 101 PA going to every needed time are.... well astronomical.
Its easy math.
Each Rift is Random.
Meaning odds are (small number of targets)/Infinite number of options
That's not good odds...

And the answer is pretty obvious. It is the same answer to every other time this happens.
The answer is "this is cool so we are just ignoring the rules and retconning it"
We saw this with Biomancy (twice! Native Americans, and then Lemuria)
We saw this with Elemental Spells
We saw this with Ocean Magic
We saw this with Cloud Magic
We saw this with Nature Magic
We saw this with Living Flame Magic
We saw this with Rune Magic
We saw this with Fetishes
We saw this with Mystic Kuznya
We saw this with Mind Bleeders
We saw this with Shamans
We saw this with Gypsies
We saw this with the Chaing-Ku
We saw this with True Atlantians and "OCCs that are transformations"
We saw this with Thunderhead Galaxy book turning the CCW into a corrupt genocidal regime
We saw this when Japan suddenly gets Slammer Missiles (but better)
We saw this with Elemental fusionist becoming available
We saw this with TA Mind Bleeders
We saw this with the Kitanni becoming generic Minions
We saw this with the Kyndians becoming generic Minions
We saw this with the Splugorth becoming widely known and identified
We saw this with Wormwood becoming a major, well known hub
We saw this when (fill in the blank here)
Would you like me to keep going?

The claim that ALL OF THOSE cases were retcons... but that this one particular case wasn't really a retcon but was actually a cunningly hidden plan where in they intentionally used a feature of the game that didn't even exist at the time and wouldn't for a decade or so (seriously time travel to the past wasn't part of the game when Atlantis came out) to secretly make both the RMB statements and all the other ones true...
...is pretty absurd.

Well, technowizardry clearly started before 101PA, since i RMB Erin Tarn mentions Tyrone heading into Mexico with a group of experienced characters, including a technowizard, over 20 years before she writes the entry.

The math is so easy you can't be bothered to show it? Personally, I'd find the odds to be rather difficult to calculate, given the incredible number of variables which one would have to calculate. However, the odds are also largely irrelevant. What were the odds of Victor Lazlo ending up in the NGR? It happened. What were the odds of dinosaurs roaming the earth again thanks to Rifts? It happened. Heck, what is the probability of anything or anyone ending up getting sucked through a Rift? That very thing happening over and over again is responsible for the state of things on Rifts Earth. It would not be unreasonable to suggest that when it comes to Rifts Earth, it is highly probable for low probability events to happen!

As to your idea that time travel was not a concept in the game as of WB2: they were "rifts in space and time" since the introduction to the game on page 7 of RMB. Dinosaur Swamp was included in Tarn's description, with the idea that they may indeed be dinosaurs rifted forward in time. If they can come through to the future, it is reasonable to think that something could go back through to the past. You may not have picked up on it, but the groups in which I played were all aware from RMB on that time travel due to rifts was a part of the setting.

I also never claimed that this was the plan from the beginning. I said that it was how our group explained it. I then decided to defend it as being a reasonable explanation when some people felt the need to attack it as unreasonable. I never claimed it was "the answer." I never claimed that it was even canon. I just said that it was how our group explained it as a way to harmonize what was stated in canon texts. I've already acknowledged earlier in the thread that if one isn't concerned about that then independent development is also entirely reasonable as an in-universe explanation.

That list of retcons was a very thorough way of refuting an absurd claim that I never made, however.

[eliakon]

Spoiler:

Axelmania and Nekira have already cited what I would have cited to point out that, while perhaps not common, travel backwards in time, especially interdimensionally, is most definitely a part of the setting. I would also point out once again that "reasonable" does not mean "most likely."

if i were to propose something that was a one-in-a-million chance as an explanation to something that has a much simpler, more reasonable, plausible explanation, then no, that one-in-a-million reason is NOT a reasonable explanation unless there is some additional very conclusive evidence supporting it.

is there time travel in the setting? sure. is it a reasonable explanation when there is a much simpler explanation that fits other available facts? no. no it is not. particularly when that one-in-a-million explanation (and yes, sending multiple technowizards throughout space and time to every single location where techno-wizardry was introduced *is* one-in-a-million) is taking something that the author clearly considers to be a minor element of the setting at best and not bothering to point out that it's being used here.

just like it is *possible* that every single UFO witnessed are actually alien spacecraft, but in the absence of additional supporting evidence it is more reasonable to conclude that they're much more likely to be flying objects that have not been properly identified of an earthly origin. the fact that they *could* theoretically be alien spacecraft does not make the explanation that they're all alien spacecraft reasonable when there is another explanation that is much more likely.

Feel free to show your math demonstrating that it is a one-in-a-million chance.

Once again, the centrality of time travel to the setting having anything to do with how reasonable it is. It exists in the setting, and that is sufficient for it to be an explanation. That said, the name of the game line is "Rifts", and those "rifts" are in both space and time. Now, controlled time travel isn't a feature, as RUE makes clear, but we also have dinosaurs getting rifted through time, and the fact that periodic rifts include temporal rifts as an option settles for players any in-universe debate about if it is really time travel. It is.

Thus, if one wants to explain things in a way that RUE's statement about technowizardry originating in North America and being an invention of humans is correct in the most absolute sense possible, some kind of temporal shenanigans have to be part of the explanation. If you don't care about keeping it correct in the most absolute sense possible, then temporal shenanigans aren't a necessary part of it.

As surprising as this lay be for you, there doesn't have to be a definitive answer on this one (unless Kevin S. would care to comment, and while I'd be thrilled to hear his take I don't think he is very likely to comment on it). It is entirely possible for there to be more than one reasonable explanation for something.

It is less than one in a million.
The odds of people from 101 PA going to every needed time are.... well astronomical.
Its easy math.
Each Rift is Random.
Meaning odds are (small number of targets)/Infinite number of options
That's not good odds...

And the answer is pretty obvious. It is the same answer to every other time this happens.
The answer is "this is cool so we are just ignoring the rules and retconning it"
We saw this with Biomancy (twice! Native Americans, and then Lemuria)
We saw this with Elemental Spells
We saw this with Ocean Magic
We saw this with Cloud Magic
We saw this with Nature Magic
We saw this with Living Flame Magic
We saw this with Rune Magic
We saw this with Fetishes
We saw this with Mystic Kuznya
We saw this with Mind Bleeders
We saw this with Shamans
We saw this with Gypsies
We saw this with the Chaing-Ku
We saw this with True Atlantians and "OCCs that are transformations"
We saw this with Thunderhead Galaxy book turning the CCW into a corrupt genocidal regime
We saw this when Japan suddenly gets Slammer Missiles (but better)
We saw this with Elemental fusionist becoming available
We saw this with TA Mind Bleeders
We saw this with the Kitanni becoming generic Minions
We saw this with the Kyndians becoming generic Minions
We saw this with the Splugorth becoming widely known and identified
We saw this with Wormwood becoming a major, well known hub
We saw this when (fill in the blank here)
Would you like me to keep going?

The claim that ALL OF THOSE cases were retcons... but that this one particular case wasn't really a retcon but was actually a cunningly hidden plan where in they intentionally used a feature of the game that didn't even exist at the time and wouldn't for a decade or so (seriously time travel to the past wasn't part of the game when Atlantis came out) to secretly make both the RMB statements and all the other ones true...
...is pretty absurd.

Well, technowizardry clearly started before 101PA, since i RMB Erin Tarn mentions Tyrone heading into Mexico with a group of experienced characters, including a technowizard, over 20 years before she writes the entry.

Okay, great. P.A. XX... doesn't change anything.

The math is so easy you can't be bothered to show it?

I did.
the odds are slightly more than zero.
Since it is (some small number)/(infinity)
that WAS the math. That is how odds work
You divide the number of outcomes you want by the total number of possibilities.
In this case "there are an infinite number of possible locations in Transdimensional Space-Time I can go to"
and "only a very few that will allow me to pull this off"

this is (very tiny number) / (Infinity)
or as next to zero as to be statistically the same thing.

Personally, I'd find the odds to be rather difficult to calculate, given the incredible number of variables which one would have to calculate. However, the odds are also largely irrelevant. What were the odds of Victor Lazlo ending up in the NGR? It happened. What were the odds of dinosaurs roaming the earth again thanks to Rifts? It happened. Heck, what is the probability of anything or anyone ending up getting sucked through a Rift? That very thing happening over and over again is responsible for the state of things on Rifts Earth. It would not be unreasonable to suggest that when it comes to Rifts Earth, it is highly probable for low probability events to happen!

Your making a classic mistake here.
Your making the mistake that "because this particular low probability event happened... that means it is not really low probability"
Just because the odds of X being a trillion to one does not mean that it can't happen... just that statistically you will have to do it a trillion times.

As to your idea that time travel was not a concept in the game as of WB2: they were "rifts in space and time" since the introduction to the game on page 7 of RMB. Dinosaur Swamp was included in Tarn's description, with the idea that they may indeed be dinosaurs rifted forward in time. If they can come through to the future, it is reasonable to think that something could go back through to the past. You may not have picked up on it, but the groups in which I played were all aware from RMB on that time travel due to rifts was a part of the setting.

both are incorrect
1) they were not rifts to the PAST. There was not, officially, any time travel to the past until later books.
2) the ability for something to travel forward is not proof that it can travel backwards.

I also never claimed that this was the plan from the beginning. I said that it was how our group explained it. I then decided to defend it as being a reasonable explanation when some people felt the need to attack it as unreasonable. I never claimed it was "the answer." I never claimed that it was even canon. I just said that it was how our group explained it as a way to harmonize what was stated in canon texts. I've already acknowledged earlier in the thread that if one isn't concerned about that then independent development is also entirely reasonable as an in-universe explanation.

It is an explanation yes.
If it is "reasonable" is debatable.
As a "this is a house rule that we use that has absolutely nothing to do with the written setting" it is perfectly valid Rule Zero and all that...
But as an explanation for the written setting... it is statistically improbable in the extreme and is, in and of itself, simply papering over a retcon by adding in something that isn't even officially possible, specifically changing the past. Since the few official time travel materials seem to tell us (if not outright state) that it isn't possible to change the past and that people are actively prevented...

Also you seem to be mistaking "something that is theoretically possible no matter how improbable" with "reasonable"

That list of retcons was a very thorough way of refuting an absurd claim that I never made, however.

Since the entire premise of the defense and argument is that time travel is the 'reasonable' explanation instead of a retcon?
Yeah it was a claim you made.

[AlanGunhouse]

I think the point of the matter is that Palladium can not keep anything unique, and generally does not explain why.

[dreicunan]

Okay, great. P.A. XX... doesn't change anything.

You mean besides demonstrating that your grasp on this issue is as as bad as your grasp on rune weapon production in the UWW?

The math is so easy you can't be bothered to show it?

I did.
the odds are slightly more than zero.
Since it is (some small number)/(infinity)
that WAS the math. That is how odds work
You divide the number of outcomes you want by the total number of possibilities.
In this case "there are an infinite number of possible locations in Transdimensional Space-Time I can go to"
and "only a very few that will allow me to pull this off"

this is (very tiny number) / (Infinity)
or as next to zero as to be statistically the same thing.

Perhaps you actually believe that. Given that ley-line powered technowizard devices are a thing, and rifts tend to open up on leylines and at nexuses, where ley line powered devices tend to be located, while the probability of a given device being sucked into a given Rift may be rather low, the likelihood of it having happened since ley line devices became a thing is basically a given.

Personally, I'd find the odds to be rather difficult to calculate, given the incredible number of variables which one would have to calculate. However, the odds are also largely irrelevant. What were the odds of Victor Lazlo ending up in the NGR? It happened. What were the odds of dinosaurs roaming the earth again thanks to Rifts? It happened. Heck, what is the probability of anything or anyone ending up getting sucked through a Rift? That very thing happening over and over again is responsible for the state of things on Rifts Earth. It would not be unreasonable to suggest that when it comes to Rifts Earth, it is highly probable for low probability events to happen!

Your making a classic mistake here.
Your making the mistake that "because this particular low probability event happened... that means it is not really low probability"
Just because the odds of X being a trillion to one does not mean that it can't happen... just that statistically you will have to do it a trillion times.

Noting that the entire history of Rifts Earth is basically founded on a chain of low probability events (for example, the Great Cataclsym) isn't claiming that they aren't low probability. It is recognizing a central conceit of the setting. Then again, it occurs a fair amount in real life, too. The odds of any particular sperm cell reaching,the egg to produce any particular human is quite low. The odds of the particular sperm cells reaching the particular eggs that produced all of the people posting here is even lower. Yet we are all here posting. Recognizing that doesn't mean that I am saying that the odds were anything other than what they are. It does mean that merely saying "that's improbable" isn't in and of itself a reason to deny yhe reasonability of an explanation. It is possibel for an explanation to be both reasonable and improbable.

As to your idea that time travel was not a concept in the game as of WB2: they were "rifts in space and time" since the introduction to the game on page 7 of RMB. Dinosaur Swamp was included in Tarn's description, with the idea that they may indeed be dinosaurs rifted forward in time. If they can come through to the future, it is reasonable to think that something could go back through to the past. You may not have picked up on it, but the groups in which I played were all aware from RMB on that time travel due to rifts was a part of the setting.

both are incorrect
1) they were not rifts to the PAST. There was not, officially, any time travel to the past until later books.
2) the ability for something to travel forward is not proof that it can travel backwards.

Rifts through space and time. It is right there in the introduction to the setting. For that phrase to mean anything, moving through time needs to be a possibility. That means time travel. As for your second point, did you somehow manage to miss that Rifts are two-way doors? The dimensional portal spell in RMB sure made it clear. So, we have rifts through space and time that you can walk through. We have the possibility raised of dinosaurs moving out of the past into the future. If there was a doorway to let them do that, then there was a doorway back to the past.

I also never claimed that this was the plan from the beginning. I said that it was how our group explained it. I then decided to defend it as being a reasonable explanation when some people felt the need to attack it as unreasonable. I never claimed it was "the answer." I never claimed that it was even canon. I just said that it was how our group explained it as a way to harmonize what was stated in canon texts. I've already acknowledged earlier in the thread that if one isn't concerned about that then independent development is also entirely reasonable as an in-universe explanation.

It is an explanation yes.
If it is "reasonable" is debatable.
As a "this is a house rule that we use that has absolutely nothing to do with the written setting" it is perfectly valid Rule Zero and all that...
But as an explanation for the written setting... it is statistically improbable in the extreme and is, in and of itself, simply papering over a retcon by adding in something that isn't even officially possible, specifically changing the past. Since the few official time travel materials seem to tell us (if not outright state) that it isn't possible to change the past and that people are actively prevented...

Also you seem to be mistaking "something that is theoretically possible no matter how improbable" with "reasonable"

Those demons and devils from the minion wars arrived early. They weren't prevented ftom taking action. Ergo, forms of time travel (specifically interdimensional time travel) exist in the setting which allow the past to be changed.

That list of retcons was a very thorough way of refuting an absurd claim that I never made, however.

Since the entire premise of the defense and argument is that time travel is the 'reasonable' explanation instead of a retcon?
Yeah it was a claim you made.

I never claimed that "retcon" was not a reasonable explanation, though I would point out that as an in-universe explanation that would be pretty hilarious. I've been pointing out the entire time that there are other reasonable explanations as well.

I mean, there is a thread here, that you are posting in, which has what I've actually written. You may wish to read it before responding again.

[Axelmania]

is there time travel in the setting? sure. is it a reasonable explanation when there is a much simpler explanation that fits other available facts? no. no it is not. particularly when that one-in-a-million explanation (and yes, sending multiple technowizards throughout space and time to every single location where techno-wizardry was introduced *is* one-in-a-million) is taking something that the author clearly considers to be a minor element of the setting at best and not bothering to point out that it's being used here.

I'm not sure if anyone is still sticking to the absolutest stance anymore, I think I've backed off it since TW Ninjas were brought up. Now I'm thinking TW might be invented independently like there OR ... time travelers. Might be either one.

In the case of weird human civilizations popping up in non-earth dimensions like the United Worlds of Warlock, I lean heavily on the time travel suspicions. In the case of non-human civilizations (I forget which one... maybe one of those underwater warrior races?) who had TW a thousand years, yeah they probably came up with their own, though maybe not as ware of the full variety of gems?

[AlanGunhouse]

Most of the gems are based on the Atlantean Stone Master model, if I recall.