Shark_Force wrote:Eagle wrote:This is a classic Killer GM move.
1) Powerful homebrew "special item" that throwaway NPCs have.
2) GM's long term players instantly recognize special item because they've been hit by it so often before.
3) Special item is designed to cause humiliating and disgusting effects in PCs (endless magically created vomit and diarrhea) that also puts them at severe combat disadvantage.
4) NPCs act in ridiculously suicidal manner just to use a special item that is only "supposed to be" a mild debuff.
5) When new player refuses to "play along", GM rules that heroic character dies in utterly humiliating way.
6) When given criticism, instead of saying "okay maybe that's too powerful", GM gets defensive and justifies it by saying he's just being "realistic".
Yup, definitely a Killer GM move.
how is it a killer GM move? nobody else is losing characters left and right to this. just the one guy who refused to respond to the situation.
this is no more a killer GM move than if the GM tells you you're being attacked by demons and you just stand there getting attacked until you die. it is not the GM"s responsibility to think for you. that's your job.
(and also, this homebrew item isn't particularly more debilitating than a number of things that are already in the game, and the goblin bomb already exists, which is what this item essentially is).
rifts is a game where combat can easily lead to death. nobody has to "add" anything in to the game to make that happen.
Zer0 Kay wrote:Seriously?
1. Non damaging spell that only makes you like and crap yourself is hardly powerful.
2. Announced it was a puke grenade to everyone AND regular players even a. Instructed noob what to do and b. did it themselves.
3. So three TW annihilation grenades would have been better for you?
4. How are under armed and armored cultist supposed to act? Their freaking AI cultist, what kind of sane person summons an AI? How are dropping grenades on the party suicidal? Wouldn't fighting them with crap weapons spells and armor in a straight out fire fight been more suicidal? If this is the only chance the crazy cultists have in 100 years neck even just 10 years why would they run?
5. so if new player refused to dodge the beam path of the SDF-1 or jump into a garbage compactor in a prison cell block on a giant space station choosing to stay and fight in both situations would he thwn be a killer GM beczuse thw SDF-1 kills instantly and the horde of troopers that reinforce eventually start hitting?
6. He doesn't have to justify. When a player is given multiple opportunities to save himself and refuses to do so. It isn't the GMs responsibility to play helicopter parent and bring the PC their lunch because they forgot it at home. The GM tells the story, runs the game and frequently throws in hints and clues on how to proceed frequently giving many opportunities for a player to save themselves from their own stupidity. But there is a point when the GM just needs to let them face their consequences.
Your points sound like your the one that didn't clear your helmet.
Which brings up another point. If your puking in a mask/EBA helmet you get the unit to form around you, take a knee and clear... Or find cover and clear.
Also sounds like the players not the GM killed him as they had the opportunity but CHOSE not to. They played in character and the GM did more than was required.
I'll respond to both these posts at once.
Rifts Ultimate Edition, pg 261 has a listing of "features common to all Dead Boy armor". 4th from the bottom is that the helmet face plates are all removable. The character shouldn't have to take off his helmet, he should be able to just detach the faceplate to let the puke out. But that's just a technical point.
A "Killer GM" isn't necessarily one who gets a total party kill every adventure. But a Killer GM will often strike down player characters when they "step out of line". And from the OP's description, that appears to be what we're witnessing here. Now I've never met Blue Lion, and have certainly never played in any of his/her games, but I've seen many GMs who act just like this.
Let's go through it again. The PCs are getting close to a confrontation with the bad guys, when they are ambushed by previously invisible enemies. These enemies are completely disposable and exist only to throw a debilitating weapon that forces everyone to remove their armor, which in Rifts means you're 1 point of damage away from being dead. The new player recognizes that this makes him incredibly vulnerable, and he doesn't wish to remove his helmet because he thinks the GM is going to use that as an excuse to head-shot him. The other players say something to the effect of "no, no, he just wants to humiliate the characters. Take your helmet off and just go with it."
The other players are relying on out of character knowledge to know what the GM plans to do. The new player makes a fairly reasonable assumption that taking your helmet off in the enemy base, when you've just seen invisible cultists appear to attack you from surprise, may be a bad idea. He voices his concerns that he's exposing himself to a head shot, and the other PCs apparently tell him that "no, these cultists won't do that"? It seems like a perfectly rational decision to me.
The "Killer" part comes in when this guy's decision to not remove his helmet proves fatal. Nothing about that is listed in the spell description that we were provided in the first post. Killing a character by having him choke to death on his own vomit is vindictive. It's a "you didn't do what I wanted you to do, so you die". Yes, some TW Annihilation grenades may actually be preferable. Those are openly and clearly lethal. To have a lethal attack that masquerades as something simply humiliating is worse.
I've played in several games where it became clear that the GM was using his special villains to embarrass or denigrate the players. And they generally wouldn't kill your character, as long as you took it without complaint. But as soon as you try to do something about it, the situation turns lethal instantly. That's what this thread sounds like. I've been in D&D games where a dragon flies over a group of low level characters and takes a dump on them. Then the GM goes into detail about how you get it into your mouth, and you have to make poison saves, etc. There are other examples that I don't think I can even post here. In every situation, the message is clear. "I'm the GM, I'm in charge, and if you step out of line I'll kill your character." I'd much rather deal with a guy who just ran incredibly lethal combats.