Behemoth Explorer retconned in Ultimate?

[Axelmania]

RMB p 217

An unusual robot vehicle is the massive Behemoth Explorer, another Pre-Rifts survivor

GMG p 230

A pre-Rifts design, but recent evidence shows tha the mysterious firm Titan Robots has resumed production of these vehicles and is working on a line of variants, including those more suitable for combat.

WB31 p 106

The massive Behemoth Explorer is one of Northern Gun's oldest and most famous designs.

It seems like this went from being a pre-Rifts design from an unknown producer, to a pre-Rifts design produced by Titan Robotics, to a post-Rifts design by Northern Gun.

One thing I don't get is why, if it's an NG design, why it wouldn't begin with NG in its Model Type like other NG stuff. Instead it begins with EX. Strangely, so does the EX-9.

Is there any way to resolve all as being true? Like perhaps Northern Gun unearthed a pre-Rifts design and they (like Titan) have been producing it a long time as one of their "resurrected" products?

So basically it's not a design NG created so much as a design they're free to do because no present company holds the rights to it? Like maybe it was an open-source public domain design for robots from the Golden Age?

I'd like to think that Titan and NG are both competing to produce it, would make it more interesting. I'd want to buy from Titan for its free repairs policy, especially since 30 million for a 'rebuilt' has no known drawbacks (doesn't mean half MDC and sensors) although NG going as low as 20 is appealing.

[Luvia]

My first instinct would be to call it marketing propaganda. Maybe because of their ties to the cs. The cs not wanting pre rifts tech in everybodies hands.

[Tiree]

Maybe they are twinned vehicles. Where it was one of those multi-corporations came together to design a vehicle.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Actually, Northern Gun, like triax is a a Pre-Rifts company that was origionally simply called Northern, Inc. It was also manufacturing giant, it's just that after the Rifts they rebranded themselves as Northern Gun, rather than just Northern, Inc. This just means it's a design they had before the renaming.

[dragonfett]

Actually, Northern Gun, like triax is a a Pre-Rifts company that was origionally simply called Northern, Inc. It was also manufacturing giant, it's just that after the Rifts they rebranded themselves as Northern Gun, rather than just Northern, Inc. This just means it's a design they had before the renaming.

I am guessing that is from one of the two NG books?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Actually, Northern Gun, like triax is a a Pre-Rifts company that was origionally simply called Northern, Inc. It was also manufacturing giant, it's just that after the Rifts they rebranded themselves as Northern Gun, rather than just Northern, Inc. This just means it's a design they had before the renaming.

I am guessing that is from one of the two NG books?

From the intro to NG 1

[Axelmania]

Huh, that's what I get for skimming the new books, pretty interesting, I guess they hadn't mentioned that in previous books? By giving NG pre-rifts roots, it's completely in line for it to be a Northern Inc design.

Though I still think Archie got his hands on it

[Nekira Sudacne]

Sure, there's no reason Titan robotics couldn't have gotten their hands on a design, or at least reverse engineered one. it's over 300 years old now.

The EX series of Robots are likely other Pre-Rifts designs from Northern, which probablly had a different serial number system, and after the collapse of soceity and rebranding they began using NG-X serial numbers at a later date.

Kind of makes me wonder if there are any other EX-series stuff hidden in the books. it'd be interesting to see other Northern, Inc. designs kicking around.

[Blue_Lion]

I wonder how common it is for people to play charters with Behemoth Explorers. There are several peaces of gear that aprear made by multiple companies. Such as L-20.

[ShadowLogan]

It seems like this went from being a pre-Rifts design from an unknown producer, to a pre-Rifts design produced by Titan Robotics, to a post-Rifts design by Northern Gun.

One thing I don't get is why, if it's an NG design, why it wouldn't begin with NG in its Model Type like other NG stuff. Instead it begins with EX. Strangely, so does the EX-9.

Is there any way to resolve all as being true? Like perhaps Northern Gun unearthed a pre-Rifts design and they (like Titan) have been producing it a long time as one of their "resurrected" products?

So basically it's not a design NG created so much as a design they're free to do because no present company holds the rights to it? Like maybe it was an open-source public domain design for robots from the Golden Age?

I'd like to think that Titan and NG are both competing to produce it, would make it more interesting. I'd want to buy from Titan for its free repairs policy, especially since 30 million for a 'rebuilt' has no known drawbacks (doesn't mean half MDC and sensors) although NG going as low as 20 is appealing.

The simplest explanations would be:
1. the Behemoth Explorers have been knocked off by one or more companies to the point there is no difference (we know black market knockoffs exist that generally have performance differences)
2. the unit was a joint design pre-Rifts that both inherited, given the companies have pre-Rifts roots. The F-22 is a Lockheed/Boeing plane (originally also included General Dynamics, who got bought out by Lockheed) for example. Though both probably would have to rebuild the line for solo operation in this scheme (since each would have been responsible for manufacture of certain part/sections and not the whole thing).
3. the unit's origins are unknown, but produced under licence by what became NG and/or Titan Robotics in Pre-Rifts time.
4. something was missed in the editing process in terms of continuity in one of the books (2E RT books have similar things that should have been caught in editing)

[kaid]

Sure, there's no reason Titan robotics couldn't have gotten their hands on a design, or at least reverse engineered one. it's over 300 years old now.

The EX series of Robots are likely other Pre-Rifts designs from Northern, which probablly had a different serial number system, and after the collapse of soceity and rebranding they began using NG-X serial numbers at a later date.

Kind of makes me wonder if there are any other EX-series stuff hidden in the books. it'd be interesting to see other Northern, Inc. designs kicking around.

Being an explorer type robot also is not something most companies are going to hold onto as secret so it likely was a pretty well known/distributed design for harsh environment exploration such as artic/antarctic travel.

I am curious if northern inc, had dealings with the creation of the samson. The original samson was stated as a canadian military design. So if northern inc had their hand in its creation that likely means they had a fair number of canadian or nema defense contracts for other designs.

[Proseksword]

There are several peaces of gear that aprear made by multiple companies. Such as L-20.

I have to imagine that enforcement of intellectual property law is near non-existant in RIFTs. I'm sure all the major powers enforce some manner of copyright within their borders, but beyond that governments other than the Coalition States would be powerless to enforce them and the incentive to simply copy a rival's successful design rather than make your own would likely outweigh any bad blood it might create. The recent alliance between the CS, Manistique & Northern Gun may see an increasing respect for each other's designs, but previously that wasn't the case.

[eliakon]

There are several peaces of gear that aprear made by multiple companies. Such as L-20.

I have to imagine that enforcement of intellectual property law is near non-existant in RIFTs. I'm sure all the major powers enforce some manner of copyright within their borders, but beyond that governments other than the Coalition States would be powerless to enforce them and the incentive to simply copy a rival's successful design rather than make your own would likely outweigh any bad blood it might create. The recent alliance between the CS, Manistique & Northern Gun may see an increasing respect for each other's designs, but previously that wasn't the case.

Heck we know for a fact that Northern Gun has a entire department in R&D that does nothing but reverse engineer other peoples technology for incorporation into their tech base. And if you believe the CS doesn't do the same... I have a bridge to sell you.

[Blue_Lion]

There are several peaces of gear that aprear made by multiple companies. Such as L-20.

I have to imagine that enforcement of intellectual property law is near non-existant in RIFTs. I'm sure all the major powers enforce some manner of copyright within their borders, but beyond that governments other than the Coalition States would be powerless to enforce them and the incentive to simply copy a rival's successful design rather than make your own would likely outweigh any bad blood it might create. The recent alliance between the CS, Manistique & Northern Gun may see an increasing respect for each other's designs, but previously that wasn't the case.

The black market specializes in knocks off.
My point was that there are several peaces of gear that have no one stated maker. The L-20 is stated as such, their are other common domain equipment not attached to any manufacturer in RUE. While other gear is listed as having one main maker. So there are two main types of gear, common any one can make and brand name with mainly one company making it.
The Behemoth Explorer to me was always a common domain robot.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think that's still the case, it's just now we know that Northern, Inc, origionally designed it before the coming of the Rifts. As that was over 200 years ago, it's long sinse passed into the public domain

[Axelmania]

I wonder how common it is for people to play charters with Behemoth Explorers.

Even though the cost should be prohibitive I think there would be GM lenience since it provides a neat base to roleplay in and is a great plot hook if stolen.

I don't like how it's land-bound so I would probably walk it onto a TW Battle Skimmer to fly around. It can carry up to 350 tons so this is feasible now that WB33p107 reduced its weight to 25 tons from the 1563 tons it was on RMBp218.

Sadly I don't think a Skimmer could fit a Super-Explorer. Length being greater than the Skimmer isn't a problem for the 2-legged classic but the 4-legged means I need to take that into account.

[Blue_Lion]

I wonder how common it is for people to play charters with Behemoth Explorers.

Even though the cost should be prohibitive I think there would be GM lenience since it provides a neat base to roleplay in and is a great plot hook if stolen.

I don't like how it's land-bound so I would probably walk it onto a TW Battle Skimmer to fly around. It can carry up to 350 tons so this is feasible now that WB33p107 reduced its weight to 25 tons from the 1563 tons it was on RMBp218.

Sadly I don't think a Skimmer could fit a Super-Explorer. Length being greater than the Skimmer isn't a problem for the 2-legged classic but the 4-legged means I need to take that into account.

I just use a TW sky frigate or Mountain ATV.

[kaid]

I wonder how common it is for people to play charters with Behemoth Explorers. There are several peaces of gear that aprear made by multiple companies. Such as L-20.

I have never had a character own one directly. Generally when I have had one in the group it has either been as part of an expedition and the people funding the expedition were running the behemoth as their mobile base/lab and the characters were guardians/scientists with that group. The other instance we had one with us was as a merc group and it was basically the mobile base camp/field hospital/work shop for the merc company.

Honestly for one person or even a small group with the addition of things from NG1-2 it is just way overkill for most parties requirements. A bulldog is more than sufficient for most groups I have been in to transport a group and give it safe places to sleep/bathe and small lab space/cargo area to haul some loot.

For a single person or 2-4 person group even something like the okemos is a great option and you can burn through a bunch of them for the price of one behemoth.

[Nekira Sudacne]

it depends on if anyone travels with the group. I've seen some games where 4-6 PC's might have up to a dozen henchmen/hirelings following them at any given time. this adds to the living space required for the group rather significantly.

[Axelmania]

I just noticed in the MDC by Location random hit tables in the Conversion Book that the Behemoth Explorer is listed under the CS vehicles category....

So that could possibly mean not just ARCHIE has ripped off Northern Gun but the Coalition too?

Picturing black-painted Behemoths with skulls painted on them now.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No reason the CS couldn't have them. They would be more for wealthy private citizens use when venturing away from the Citys though, so no military paint job probably.