Interesting Idea - Cyber-Knight in Power Armor

[HWalsh]

Last Friday my current CK hit level 6. I gained 2 OCC Related skills. I can take any pilot skill.

I started thinking... If I took Pilot Robots & Power Armor... Then took Robot & Power Armor Combat: Basic I could slip into some power armor to help even some of the odds.

In our group it's kind of a high powered group so as a CK I've been falling behind a bit. It's hard to compete with Godlings as a human after all.

Then I noticed that, since one of us is a Nation Sales Rep I could actually get a Tech Warrior Power Armor. I wanna see if I can get the hands modified so I can use my Psi-Swords but... From other CK players... How do you feel about CKs in PAs?

[ShadowLogan]

CyberKnightrs in Power Armor?

I don't have a problem with it, though it isn't supposed to be common.

As for modifying it for Psi-Sword use. It really is a GM's call and such on when/if it is necessary. A Samson isn't going to do IMHO (no matter how many modifications), but something trim like a Flying Titan or Terrain Hopper will do no problem without modification, though something like a SAMAS may or may not require it. It really boils down to where the operator's hand actually reside in the suit.

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE 366
Psionics that affect the mind cannot affect somebody in heavy power armor (250+ MDC).

IIRC, there are indications that it works the other way around as well, that psionics have trouble reaching out through heavy PA/bots, and I'd count the Zen anti-tech powers as having the same limit.
I'd also apply the same limitation to psi-swords, under the theory that psionic energy can't make it through the power armor to manifest effects on the outside.

Basically, keep it under 250 MDC, an I wouldn't have much problem with it as a GM.
If you want more MDC, get a Naruni Force Field installed into some PA that has 249 or fewer MDC.

[HWalsh]

RUE 366
Psionics that affect the mind cannot affect somebody in heavy power armor (250+ MDC).

IIRC, there are indications that it works the other way around as well, that psionics have trouble reaching out through heavy PA/bots, and I'd count the Zen anti-tech powers as having the same limit.
I'd also apply the same limitation to psi-swords, under the theory that psionic energy can't make it through the power armor to manifest effects on the outside.

Basically, keep it under 250 MDC, an I wouldn't have much problem with it as a GM.
If you want more MDC, get a Naruni Force Field installed into some PA that has 249 or fewer MDC.

Actually, specifically, there was a response once about Psi-Swords in Power Armor that stated that they would manifest inside the hand of the PA and burst their way out.

"58. Can you activate Psi powers while inside a suit of power armor? For example, can you activate the super Psi power of psi-sword while inside power armor?

Answer: You can, but the powers will not normally penetrate/work through the armor, in this case the Psi-sword will appear in the characters hand, tearing through the hand of the PA unit."

from here: http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=220%3Apsionic-questions&catid=58&Itemid=200

So as long as you remove the PA's hand, or replace it with a normal EBA hand, then you are good.

As to the Zen powers... Yeah that one is iffy.

They aren't mind effecting powers, that is why there is no save. A lot of them have to do with the Knight sensing and moving around erratically and as such inflicting penalties.

[Killer Cyborg]

RUE 366
Psionics that affect the mind cannot affect somebody in heavy power armor (250+ MDC).

IIRC, there are indications that it works the other way around as well, that psionics have trouble reaching out through heavy PA/bots, and I'd count the Zen anti-tech powers as having the same limit.
I'd also apply the same limitation to psi-swords, under the theory that psionic energy can't make it through the power armor to manifest effects on the outside.

Basically, keep it under 250 MDC, an I wouldn't have much problem with it as a GM.
If you want more MDC, get a Naruni Force Field installed into some PA that has 249 or fewer MDC.

Actually, specifically, there was a response once about Psi-Swords in Power Armor that stated that they would manifest inside the hand of the PA and burst their way out.

"58. Can you activate Psi powers while inside a suit of power armor? For example, can you activate the super Psi power of psi-sword while inside power armor?

Answer: You can, but the powers will not normally penetrate/work through the armor, in this case the Psi-sword will appear in the characters hand, tearing through the hand of the PA unit."

from here: http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=220%3Apsionic-questions&catid=58&Itemid=200

IF you want to go with the FAQ, then go with the FAQ.

So as long as you remove the PA's hand, or replace it with a normal EBA hand, then you are good.

That would make sense across the board.

As to the Zen powers... Yeah that one is iffy.

Right. I don't believe that the zen powers are listed as actually being psionic, but I think it's best to treat them as such.

They aren't mind effecting powers, that is why there is no save. A lot of them have to do with the Knight sensing and moving around erratically and as such inflicting penalties.

They're not mind-affecting, but they seem to be loosely related to Telemechanics. At least, TM is the closest applicable power that I can think of.
TM. Telemechanics is essentially mind-reading/control for devices that don't as a a rule have minds, so I'd consider it to fall under the "mind affecting" category even though it doesn't affect minds as a rule. Remember, when the machine is advanced enough to have a mind of sorts, TM acts more like telepathy than as Object Read.
Yes, the Zen powers are NOT telemechanic powers. It's just the closest precedent that I can think of.

Also, again, I believe that the power armor restrictions to psionics are described somewhere as being essentially the same for all psionics, not just for mind-affecting powers.

[HWalsh]

RUE 366
Psionics that affect the mind cannot affect somebody in heavy power armor (250+ MDC).

IIRC, there are indications that it works the other way around as well, that psionics have trouble reaching out through heavy PA/bots, and I'd count the Zen anti-tech powers as having the same limit.
I'd also apply the same limitation to psi-swords, under the theory that psionic energy can't make it through the power armor to manifest effects on the outside.

Basically, keep it under 250 MDC, an I wouldn't have much problem with it as a GM.
If you want more MDC, get a Naruni Force Field installed into some PA that has 249 or fewer MDC.

Actually, specifically, there was a response once about Psi-Swords in Power Armor that stated that they would manifest inside the hand of the PA and burst their way out.

"58. Can you activate Psi powers while inside a suit of power armor? For example, can you activate the super Psi power of psi-sword while inside power armor?

Answer: You can, but the powers will not normally penetrate/work through the armor, in this case the Psi-sword will appear in the characters hand, tearing through the hand of the PA unit."

from here: http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=220%3Apsionic-questions&catid=58&Itemid=200

IF you want to go with the FAQ, then go with the FAQ.

So as long as you remove the PA's hand, or replace it with a normal EBA hand, then you are good.

That would make sense across the board.

As to the Zen powers... Yeah that one is iffy.

Right. I don't believe that the zen powers are listed as actually being psionic, but I think it's best to treat them as such.

They aren't mind effecting powers, that is why there is no save. A lot of them have to do with the Knight sensing and moving around erratically and as such inflicting penalties.

They're not mind-affecting, but they seem to be loosely related to Telemechanics. At least, TM is the closest applicable power that I can think of.
TM. Telemechanics is essentially mind-reading/control for devices that don't as a a rule have minds, so I'd consider it to fall under the "mind affecting" category even though it doesn't affect minds as a rule. Remember, when the machine is advanced enough to have a mind of sorts, TM acts more like telepathy than as Object Read.
Yes, the Zen powers are NOT telemechanic powers. It's just the closest precedent that I can think of.

Also, again, I believe that the power armor restrictions to psionics are described somewhere as being essentially the same for all psionics, not just for mind-affecting powers.

True. Its weird.

I might have the CK simply start buying a bunch of different armors and use the correct armor when appropriate. The Godling and such are so powerful I rarely (read: never) get to use my anti-tech stuff anyway and the GM is really fond of pure supernatural enemies so. Meh.

Would be neat, get a Tech Warrior PA, get my Light EBA, my Heavy EBA, maybe get a TW EBA, so I can kind of pick and choose... "Oh this is an under-water assignment? Hold on. I have a suit for that..."

[Killer Cyborg]

Another aspect to think about is why "Heavy Power Armor" consists of armor with 250+ MDC.
If the MDC is just a kind of rule of thumb based on correlation--as in, PA that constitutes "Heavy Power Armor" typically has that much MDC or more, because Heavy Armor can bear the weight of it--then that's one thing.
If it's the MDC itself that's the problem--if the armor's thickness/whatever is what's blocking the psionic energy/effects--then that's another.

If it's the status of the PA (Light, Heavy, etc.) that's the important factor, then it might be possible to find a workaround to give Light PA more than 250 MDC without blocking psionics.
If it's the MDC itself that's the important factor, then Heavy Power Armor that's sustained damage (or had some armor removed) could still allow for psionics if the current MDC is 249 or lower.
For example, if a psychic wanted to fly around in old-school SAMAS while still using his psychic powers, he could just ping the thing for 1 MD, dropping the MDC to 249.

That'd all be GM's call, of course.

[HWalsh]

Another aspect to think about is why "Heavy Power Armor" consists of armor with 250+ MDC.
If the MDC is just a kind of rule of thumb based on correlation--as in, PA that constitutes "Heavy Power Armor" typically has that much MDC or more, because Heavy Armor can bear the weight of it--then that's one thing.
If it's the MDC itself that's the problem--if the armor's thickness/whatever is what's blocking the psionic energy/effects--then that's another.

If it's the status of the PA (Light, Heavy, etc.) that's the important factor, then it might be possible to find a workaround to give Light PA more than 250 MDC without blocking psionics.
If it's the MDC itself that's the important factor, then Heavy Power Armor that's sustained damage (or had some armor removed) could still allow for psionics if the current MDC is 249 or lower.
For example, if a psychic wanted to fly around in old-school SAMAS while still using his psychic powers, he could just ping the thing for 1 MD, dropping the MDC to 249.

That'd all be GM's call, of course.

Granted. I mean even if I can't use my abilities in it to their fullest. We don't have a PA pilot (or GB pilot) so being able to double dip can still help. Even with basic combat zipping around in a SAMAS or a Flying Titan can be useful when the group needs air support. Ya know?

[dragonfett]

Last Friday my current CK hit level 6. I gained 2 OCC Related skills. I can take any pilot skill.

I started thinking... If I took Pilot Robots & Power Armor... Then took Robot & Power Armor Combat: Basic I could slip into some power armor to help even some of the odds.

In our group it's kind of a high powered group so as a CK I've been falling behind a bit. It's hard to compete with Godlings as a human after all.

Then I noticed that, since one of us is a Nation Sales Rep I could actually get a Tech Warrior Power Armor. I wanna see if I can get the hands modified so I can use my Psi-Swords but... From other CK players... How do you feel about CKs in PAs?

I would spring for RPA Combat Elite: (Your favored choice of Power Armor here) because you automatically get RPA Combat Basic with it.

[Axelmania]

As for modifying it for Psi-Sword use. It really is a GM's call and such on when/if it is necessary. A Samson isn't going to do IMHO (no matter how many modifications),

Raoul Lazarious is a cyber-knight in Reid's Rangers who uses a Samson, Vampire Kingdoms doesn't mention him being unable to use his psi-sword while piloting it. This would be a pretty serious limitation worth pointing out for a guy who battles vampires, since the vibro-claws built into the Samson would not harm vampires.

If his psi-sword didn't work I think he would've gotten them silver-laced or something.

[glitterboy2098]

the cybernight in the Rifts novels (i forget his name) used a Sampson PA quite a bit.

[Nightmask]

CyberKnightrs in Power Armor?

I don't have a problem with it, though it isn't supposed to be common.

As for modifying it for Psi-Sword use. It really is a GM's call and such on when/if it is necessary. A Samson isn't going to do IMHO (no matter how many modifications), but something trim like a Flying Titan or Terrain Hopper will do no problem without modification, though something like a SAMAS may or may not require it. It really boils down to where the operator's hand actually reside in the suit.

That's when you get a Gizmoteer involved, since once one's 4th level they can learn and create Psi-sword gizmotech so could then install it into the power armor (or body armor for that matter) with the added benefit of an extra 2d6 on the damage.

[Mlp7029]

So if the cyber-knight's powers can not read through the PA if it has more than 250 MDC then the powers cannot be used against PA with more than 250 MDC. ℅ no giant robots either they have more than 250 MDC but wait the powers are specifically listed as working against those things with no restrictions listed. Can't have it both ways IMHO. Either the zen powers work through armor or they do not and clearly they do or they are close to useless.

[Axelmania]

It's worth pointing out that the FAQ answer is regarding the Super Psionic power of Psi-Sword that you pay ISP for.

We could rule that it works differently for Cyber-Knights. Perhaps because of their technology-related powers they are able to make their weaker psi-swords in the hand of a suit of power armor like a Samson without damaging it.

That must be the explanation since otherwise Raoul would've had it mentioned you'd think... otherwise he'd only have his silver-plated halberd and that would interfere with using his rail gun.

One possibility if GM insists on it busting through your PA's hand: get a bio-system/cyberneti/bionic hand! That way no actual flesh is exposed so your environmental seal would have to be lost, just specially seal it below where the flesh begins.

[Svartalf]

RUE 366
Psionics that affect the mind cannot affect somebody in heavy power armor (250+ MDC).

IIRC, there are indications that it works the other way around as well, that psionics have trouble reaching out through heavy PA/bots, and I'd count the Zen anti-tech powers as having the same limit.
I'd also apply the same limitation to psi-swords, under the theory that psionic energy can't make it through the power armor to manifest effects on the outside.

Basically, keep it under 250 MDC, an I wouldn't have much problem with it as a GM.
If you want more MDC, get a Naruni Force Field installed into some PA that has 249 or fewer MDC.

Lord Coake passing a major contract with Chipwell

[Svartalf]

CyberKnightrs in Power Armor?

I don't have a problem with it, though it isn't supposed to be common.

As for modifying it for Psi-Sword use. It really is a GM's call and such on when/if it is necessary. A Samson isn't going to do IMHO (no matter how many modifications), but something trim like a Flying Titan or Terrain Hopper will do no problem without modification, though something like a SAMAS may or may not require it. It really boils down to where the operator's hand actually reside in the suit.

That's when you get a Gizmoteer involved, since once one's 4th level they can learn and create Psi-sword gizmotech so could then install it into the power armor (or body armor for that matter) with the added benefit of an extra 2d6 on the damage.

Gizmoteer? an Amaki will be hard to get given that they don't travel much out of South America. Or do you mean another kind of gizmoteer that I don't know about?

[Nightmask]

CyberKnightrs in Power Armor?

I don't have a problem with it, though it isn't supposed to be common.

As for modifying it for Psi-Sword use. It really is a GM's call and such on when/if it is necessary. A Samson isn't going to do IMHO (no matter how many modifications), but something trim like a Flying Titan or Terrain Hopper will do no problem without modification, though something like a SAMAS may or may not require it. It really boils down to where the operator's hand actually reside in the suit.

That's when you get a Gizmoteer involved, since once one's 4th level they can learn and create Psi-sword gizmotech so could then install it into the power armor (or body armor for that matter) with the added benefit of an extra 2d6 on the damage.

Gizmoteer? an Amaki will be hard to get given that they don't travel much out of South America. Or do you mean another kind of gizmoteer that I don't know about?

While Amaki Gizmoteers do travel some the text doesn't say that only Amaki can be Gizmoteers and there are reasons to believe any psionics-capable species can produce Gizmoteers.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's worth pointing out that the FAQ answer is regarding the Super Psionic power of Psi-Sword that you pay ISP for.

We could rule that it works differently for Cyber-Knights. Perhaps because of their technology-related powers they are able to make their weaker psi-swords in the hand of a suit of power armor like a Samson without damaging it.

That must be the explanation since otherwise Raoul would've had it mentioned you'd think... otherwise he'd only have his silver-plated halberd and that would interfere with using his rail gun.

One possibility if GM insists on it busting through your PA's hand: get a bio-system/cyberneti/bionic hand! That way no actual flesh is exposed so your environmental seal would have to be lost, just specially seal it below where the flesh begins.

Speaking of house rules, in my games the CS Psionic Gauntlet's psi-sword can work in conjunction with an existing psi-sword for psychics who have their own, stacking the damage together.
So when I'm running, if somebody wanted to spend the extra cash to have a psi-gauntlet installed in their Heavy PA, I'd let them still use their psi-sword, and it would be more powerful than normal.

[ShadowLogan]

Raoul Lazarious is a cyber-knight in Reid's Rangers who uses a Samson, Vampire Kingdoms doesn't mention him being unable to use his psi-sword while piloting it. This would be a pretty serious limitation worth pointing out for a guy who battles vampires, since the vibro-claws built into the Samson would not harm vampires.

Why would they need to point it out if it was obvious that the hands of the PA suit aren't the hands of the operator (in this case the CK)? Power Armor like this that remove the operator's hands from the suit's hands IMHO would not be able to allow the Psi-Sword to form at all or without damaging the suit. That it isn't stated doesn't mean they can do it, just that it wasn't worth noting.

That's when you get a Gizmoteer involved, since once one's 4th level they can learn and create Psi-sword gizmotech so could then install it into the power armor (or body armor for that matter) with the added benefit of an extra 2d6 on the damage.

True, but I am considering stock models w/o customizations or other after market modifications that could happen to allow it.

Gizmoteer? an Amaki will be hard to get given that they don't travel much out of South America. Or do you mean another kind of gizmoteer that I don't know about?

Psyscape's text for the city (pg31) has a Psyhic Academy's Faculty of Psychic Technology said to be "This is a science similar to Techno-Wizardry that uses psionics rather than magic to achieve the same ends." This doesn't seem to be the Psi-Tech class (in the book) and would appear to be closer to the Amaki Gizmoteer Class in SA2 (and earlier book).

Vernulians in WB1o (pg 171, and not mentioned in WB30) mentions a class available to refuguees as "techno-wizard with a psionic/I.S.P. orientation. P.P.E and other forms of magic are foreign to them, but in time, the Vernulians can learn magic too." Now what they mean by "TW with a psionic/ISP orientation" in execution is debatable of course.

In Phaseworld you have the Noro and their Psylite hardware. A normal TW might also be able to come up with something similar IINM.

[Marcethus]

I could definitely see a Cyber-Knight using power armor if that was it took to get the job done. I could easily see a TW coming up with a way for the psi sword to be used through the PA. IIRC the rules are set up for the creation of devices involving powers that the TW himself doesn't have. And there are plenty of examples of TW Devices that mimic Psionic powers.

[eliakon]

I know I am late to this...
...but my thoughts here.
I would allow a CK (or anyone else) to use psi-sword in a power armor. IF that armor was small enough that the armors hand was, more or less, a powered gauntlet around the wearers hand. I would NOT allow it for an armor that is larger and has 'extensions' or the like.
Thus something like a Flying Titan or exosuit is a yes, but not something like a Glitterboy or Ultimax is a no.

[Marcethus]

I know I am late to this...
...but my thoughts here.
I would allow a CK (or anyone else) to use psi-sword in a power armor. IF that armor was small enough that the armors hand was, more or less, a powered gauntlet around the wearers hand. I would NOT allow it for an armor that is larger and has 'extensions' or the like.
Thus something like a Flying Titan or exosuit is a yes, but not something like a Glitterboy or Ultimax is a no.

That's pretty much how I would look at it as well. With the larger armor's needing the TW or Gizmoteer modification if they wanted to use the sword.

[Axelmania]

I can see how something like the Flanker where the pilot's hand is wrapped around a joystick and therey's obviously robotic hands far from theirs deviates from the spirit of the psi-sword...

I guess even though the dimensions suggest it for tall guys like the Samson, I still resist thinking of it that way...

It's in that gray zone where it's too small to fit the entire pilot's arm in the upper arm of the PA so you figure it should be in the forearm... but then how does the pilot's elbow reach deep enough to fit in the elbow of the PA with longer arms?

So if I can stretch imagination for human elbow in Samson elbow then I can also do that for human hand in Samson hand.

PA also has that 'extension of the pilot' flavor text which makes you wonder how far 'self' statements go.

[eliakon]

I know there is a lot of artistic license going on....
...but my opinion (like I said its my personal call) is that a psi-sword will appear in your hand. IF that hand is in a gauntlet... great now the gauntlet is holding a psi sword. If that hand is just short of the elbow of your suit... then you do Psi-Sword damage to your PA's arm (from the inside. Personal call would be you do so each action the character keeps the sword active until deactivated or it punches through)

To be fair, this is how I rule for any use of abilities in a suit of PA. Spell casters have the same issues etc.

[glitterboy2098]

I know there is a lot of artistic license going on....
...but my opinion (like I said its my personal call) is that a psi-sword will appear in your hand. IF that hand is in a gauntlet... great now the gauntlet is holding a psi sword. If that hand is just short of the elbow of your suit... then you do Psi-Sword damage to your PA's arm (from the inside. Personal call would be you do so each action the character keeps the sword active until deactivated or it punches through)

To be fair, this is how I rule for any use of abilities in a suit of PA. Spell casters have the same issues etc.

i'm inclined to agree. this would limit you to lighter PA like the Flying titan, the Triax Terrainhopper, or the like primarily. which really are just exoskeleton body armor with extra mobility and systems.

(interestingly, the Cyclone system from robotech would make an excellent cyberknight's PA.. it's design allows for the use of the psysword, it's fairly tough for its size, and the ability to become a motorcycle makes it double as the cyberknight's mount.

[Marcethus]

I know there is a lot of artistic license going on....
...but my opinion (like I said its my personal call) is that a psi-sword will appear in your hand. IF that hand is in a gauntlet... great now the gauntlet is holding a psi sword. If that hand is just short of the elbow of your suit... then you do Psi-Sword damage to your PA's arm (from the inside. Personal call would be you do so each action the character keeps the sword active until deactivated or it punches through)

To be fair, this is how I rule for any use of abilities in a suit of PA. Spell casters have the same issues etc.

There is the Warlock Marine Power Armor that specifically says spells can be cast but at half range.

[dragonfett]

A Cyber-Knight could easily use the X-60 Flanker Urban Defender Power Armor out of Triax due to the fact that the power armor doesn't protect the operator's arms.

[Supergyro]

CyberKnightrs in Power Armor?

I don't have a problem with it, though it isn't supposed to be common.

As for modifying it for Psi-Sword use.

And even if the GM doesn't allow it..

"Oh no.. however will I do 1d6 MD in melee now!?"

[HWalsh]

CyberKnightrs in Power Armor?

I don't have a problem with it, though it isn't supposed to be common.

As for modifying it for Psi-Sword use.

And even if the GM doesn't allow it..

"Oh no.. however will I do 1d6 MD in melee now!?"

That depends on your own Cyber-Knight actually.

My level 6 Master Psychic Cyber-Knight rocks 6d6 MD after fencing. If I had opened my third eye (I had the option, kind of kicking myself after seeing the power level that I didn't.) I would have been throwing out 11d6 MD per shot. Throw in twin strike and we're talking about 12d6 to 22d6 MD which is NOT a tiny bit.

I have even heard horror stories of people pulling nexus shenanigans and getting (at my level no less) up to 28d6 with the right items or same setup with an open 3rd eye of 78d6. 78d6 is equal to an average of 273 MD a shot, up to a maximum of 456 MD, or in the specific incident that I heard of the person scored a high roller crit did something like 753 and dropped a Glitterboy from a single attack to the chest... So... Don't underestimate Cyber-Knights, they can be pretty nasty under the right circumstances.

Mine just does the 6d6 per blade, but 6d6 is better than a lot of weapons in Rifts.

[ShadowLogan]

It's in that gray zone where it's too small to fit the entire pilot's arm in the upper arm of the PA so you figure it should be in the forearm... but then how does the pilot's elbow reach deep enough to fit in the elbow of the PA with longer arms?

For suits that drastically larger like a Glitterboy or Samson I would have to say the operator's limbs are probably not in the suit's limbs (maybe the head) and are confined to the torso/body. Palladium's basic criteria for a 'bot or 'pa comes down to relative size to the operator (for humans PA goes up to 12ft anything more is a robot).

i'm inclined to agree. this would limit you to lighter PA like the Flying titan, the Triax Terrainhopper, or the like primarily. which really are just exoskeleton body armor with extra mobility and systems.

Something else to keep in mind is that on some suits the added height may not be from the humanoid section of the PA, but extras (ex Samas intakes) or styling (over sized head and soles) that can add up.

And even if the GM doesn't allow it..

"Oh no.. however will I do 1d6 MD in melee now!?"

Depends on the level of the CK though, higher levels and other factors can make it a serious MD melee weapon.

[HWalsh]

Depends on the level of the CK though, higher levels and other factors can make it a serious MD melee weapon.

This in spades. I will never figure out why people never show any CK love. They are one of the few, really only, class that can use the Psi-Sword realistically.

Everyone else who has one has to wait a full round before it is ready.

[Axelmania]

I normally like to go in deference to artwork but...

Ignoring that, do we know enough from the printed stats to know that the Samson has long arms?

What if the arms are not proportional like in the artwork and only the legs are longer?

The Samson has a huge running speed but it doesn't exactly have any features demanding the PA must have long arms, even if the artist tends to draw it proportionately.

The problem with proportionately larger arms is how the elbows match up so it's easier to say it has stubby t-rex arms.

A Cyber-Knight could easily use the X-60 Flanker Urban Defender Power Armor out of Triax due to the fact that the power armor doesn't protect the operator's arms.

They could use it... but I don't know about the 'easily' part. You'd have to let go of the power armor's arm and that would probably prevent you from moving efficiently and benefitting from the piloting skill bonuses, if not incurring additional penalties beyond their lack. Arm movement is part of keeping balance while running and jumping around and stuff. If the cyber-knight was stationary and just parrying stuff shot at his exposed parts I guess it'd be okay.

[dragonfett]

I normally like to go in deference to artwork but...

Ignoring that, do we know enough from the printed stats to know that the Samson has long arms?

What if the arms are not proportional like in the artwork and only the legs are longer?

The Samson has a huge running speed but it doesn't exactly have any features demanding the PA must have long arms, even if the artist tends to draw it proportionately.

The problem with proportionately larger arms is how the elbows match up so it's easier to say it has stubby t-rex arms.

A Cyber-Knight could easily use the X-60 Flanker Urban Defender Power Armor out of Triax due to the fact that the power armor doesn't protect the operator's arms.

They could use it... but I don't know about the 'easily' part. You'd have to let go of the power armor's arm and that would probably prevent you from moving efficiently and benefitting from the piloting skill bonuses, if not incurring additional penalties beyond their lack. Arm movement is part of keeping balance while running and jumping around and stuff. If the cyber-knight was stationary and just parrying stuff shot at his exposed parts I guess it'd be okay.

True...

[Marcethus]

It's in that gray zone where it's too small to fit the entire pilot's arm in the upper arm of the PA so you figure it should be in the forearm... but then how does the pilot's elbow reach deep enough to fit in the elbow of the PA with longer arms?

For suits that drastically larger like a Glitterboy or Samson I would have to say the operator's limbs are probably not in the suit's limbs (maybe the head) and are confined to the torso/body. Palladium's basic criteria for a 'bot or 'pa comes down to relative size to the operator (for humans PA goes up to 12ft anything more is a robot).

i'm inclined to agree. this would limit you to lighter PA like the Flying titan, the Triax Terrainhopper, or the like primarily. which really are just exoskeleton body armor with extra mobility and systems.

Something else to keep in mind is that on some suits the added height may not be from the humanoid section of the PA, but extras (ex Samas intakes) or styling (over sized head and soles) that can add up.

And even if the GM doesn't allow it..

"Oh no.. however will I do 1d6 MD in melee now!?"

Depends on the level of the CK though, higher levels and other factors can make it a serious MD melee weapon.

Doesn't the Artwork for the GB, not sure if it's in the RUE or the RMB, show that the Pilot's legs are in the legs just short of the Knee and his arms are in the arms of the GB as well. IIRC seeing it in one of those two books.

[Axelmania]

I can't find anything about the arms but from what I can tell it looks like the human knee joints line up with the Glitter Boy's but the human feet stop well short of the PA's feet, it's like the heel of the human foot rests about at the top of the pylons.

This is still depicted on page 73 of Ultimate Edition but it was shrunk from the larger illustration in Rifts Main Book. What was once full-page illustrations on page 220/221/222 of the main book is reduced to about 1/3 so that they all fit side by side on the top third of Ultimate 73.

[ShadowLogan]

I can't find anything about the arms but from what I can tell it looks like the human knee joints line up with the Glitter Boy's but the human feet stop well short of the PA's feet, it's like the heel of the human foot rests about at the top of the pylons.

This is still depicted on page 73 of Ultimate Edition but it was shrunk from the larger illustration in Rifts Main Book. What was once full-page illustrations on page 220/221/222 of the main book is reduced to about 1/3 so that they all fit side by side on the top third of Ultimate 73.

A Glitterboy stands 3.1m tall, a normal human is under 2m tall (IINM it'd be around 1.8m). At that height a human operators legs could be inside of a GB suit as depicted, but the arms and head would have to be purely robotic in nature since the head would come up to just below the armpits (assuming the operator and suit legs "share" a knee joint) of the GB suit.

[Marcethus]

I can't find anything about the arms but from what I can tell it looks like the human knee joints line up with the Glitter Boy's but the human feet stop well short of the PA's feet, it's like the heel of the human foot rests about at the top of the pylons.

This is still depicted on page 73 of Ultimate Edition but it was shrunk from the larger illustration in Rifts Main Book. What was once full-page illustrations on page 220/221/222 of the main book is reduced to about 1/3 so that they all fit side by side on the top third of Ultimate 73.

A Glitterboy stands 3.1m tall, a normal human is under 2m tall (IINM it'd be around 1.8m). At that height a human operators legs could be inside of a GB suit as depicted, but the arms and head would have to be purely robotic in nature since the head would come up to just below the armpits (assuming the operator and suit legs "share" a knee joint) of the GB suit.

We know from the illustrations that the GB Pilots head is in the armor's actual head. This is also made clear since it says when the head of the GB armor is destroyed the pilots own head is exposed and he then relies on his own senses instead of the suits.

[eliakon]

I can't find anything about the arms but from what I can tell it looks like the human knee joints line up with the Glitter Boy's but the human feet stop well short of the PA's feet, it's like the heel of the human foot rests about at the top of the pylons.

This is still depicted on page 73 of Ultimate Edition but it was shrunk from the larger illustration in Rifts Main Book. What was once full-page illustrations on page 220/221/222 of the main book is reduced to about 1/3 so that they all fit side by side on the top third of Ultimate 73.

A Glitterboy stands 3.1m tall, a normal human is under 2m tall (IINM it'd be around 1.8m). At that height a human operators legs could be inside of a GB suit as depicted, but the arms and head would have to be purely robotic in nature since the head would come up to just below the armpits (assuming the operator and suit legs "share" a knee joint) of the GB suit.

We know from the illustrations that the GB Pilots head is in the armor's actual head. This is also made clear since it says when the head of the GB armor is destroyed the pilots own head is exposed and he then relies on his own senses instead of the suits.

Which would then tell us that their hands are probably, at best, around their armor's elbows and that their feet are just in the armor's hips.

[Marcethus]

Alot of that depends on how thick the torso's armor is.

[Axelmania]

The knees are clearly in the knees though. Maybe the real glitterboy differs from the illustration in that the exhaust tubes coming out if the head are four feet long or something

[ShadowLogan]

I can't find anything about the arms but from what I can tell it looks like the human knee joints line up with the Glitter Boy's but the human feet stop well short of the PA's feet, it's like the heel of the human foot rests about at the top of the pylons.

This is still depicted on page 73 of Ultimate Edition but it was shrunk from the larger illustration in Rifts Main Book. What was once full-page illustrations on page 220/221/222 of the main book is reduced to about 1/3 so that they all fit side by side on the top third of Ultimate 73.

A Glitterboy stands 3.1m tall, a normal human is under 2m tall (IINM it'd be around 1.8m). At that height a human operators legs could be inside of a GB suit as depicted, but the arms and head would have to be purely robotic in nature since the head would come up to just below the armpits (assuming the operator and suit legs "share" a knee joint) of the GB suit.

We know from the illustrations that the GB Pilots head is in the armor's actual head. This is also made clear since it says when the head of the GB armor is destroyed the pilots own head is exposed and he then relies on his own senses instead of the suits.

If the pilot shares the knee and head locations of the GB suit that can create problems.

Robert Wadlow stands basically 9ft tall (less than 1inch under), you can find pictures of him standing next to his father who stands basically 6ft (less than 1inch under). If you superimpose the father in front of him, he can share the same head position, but then his feet come in at the knees. This is with someone who is basically a 1.5ft shorter than a Glitterboy (though we can probably knock off a bit of the height difference to the helmet horns and BG, but still) against a palladium "average" height male (never mind pilots who don't fall in this height range, though PA text almost never considers the height of the operator as a determining factor).

[eliakon]

The problem with trying to argue that the knee of the armor and the head of the armor line up with the knee of the pilot and the head of the pilot is that the ONLY way that can happen...
...is if you have a pilot that is basically nine feet tall.

[dragonfett]

My only explanation is that the illustrations are incorrect and either the proportions are not the same as a humans (the arms and legs are longer than what they proportionally would otherwise be) or the operator's legs are not in the actual legs of the suit.

[Marcethus]

My thinking on it runs thus: If pilots head is in the head then it would be logical to assume that his feet would be placed just above the Knees of the GB. Arm wise I could see his hands being placed just behind the Elbow. Though I am not sure because we do not know exactly how thick the torso armoring is.

[Axelmania]

I propose that the glitter boy torso and upper legs are actually much shorter than it appears to be in illustrations. It is an optical illusion created by the shininess.

[rem1093]

The problem with all the larger Power armor (anything bigger then the pilot), is that they never match with any of the pilot joints and have to be fully mechanical. For instance, how does a GB lift its thigh to walk if the pilots leg is in there, without braking that leg as it bends the wrong way. Its make more sense if they are fully mechanical like the Iron Monger from the first Iron man movie or even the Hulk Buster from Avengers 2.

As for the CK's weapon I say they can use it with CK size Armor, (there are some high MDC ones out there, like the Protege, so i wouldn't go with MDC restrictions), But add that at higher levels they can use it with larger power armors.