Disarm v Boomgun

[Axelmania]

There are some hand to hand techniques or even doing called shots with weapons where you can remove a weapon from an opponent's hand.

I don't think this would be possible against the Triax Glitter Boy since that model has the boomgun attached on a shoulder hinge to the robot so you'd have to shoot that off, and it isn' given a separate MDC from the gun itself.

The traditional GB looks looser though. It is attached via the ammo belt to the ammo bin in the back... I don't see either given their own MDC on page 72 of Ultimate just the gun.

It is described as "attached to the back and right shoulder". It is mentioned to be reversible for left-handed although I'm not sure how easy such a modification is.

The front view shows the boom gun suspended vertically even though the right hand of the robot is not holding it. The back view shows slack in the ammo belt so it's not hanging off of that and is suspended some other way.

I don't know if that necessarily means it is permanently attached by some other means though... what if it just has a hook to rest the gun on to free the hand but the ammo belt is the only actual connection?

Artwork like on page 71 shows the gun translated more outward which doesn't look like something a simple hinge would allow. Sure, the back of the gun is resting on top of the shoulder, and a downward projection in front of the shoulder plate looks like it could serve as a rifle butt, but I'm getting the impression that it's just the ammo belt connecting the suit and the gun...

In which case, wouldn't it be a good tactic against glitter boys to have 1-2 guys keeping the boom gun disarmed (perhaps entangling the arm to prevent it from being able to grab the gun again?) while others inflict damage?

It even occurred to me that maybe you could pick up the boomgun and use it yourself, in which case the Glitter Boy would first have to successfully disarm you to be able to pick it up again.

As cool as it would be to use the Boom Gun against the Glitter Boy, it doesn't look like there is enough length in the ammo feed to allow for that. It's probably designed to have a maximum length to prevent that kind of tactic.

Still could be fun to use the Boom Gun against his allies though. Would the Power Armor have some kind of cut-off switch to prevent anything but the armor from shooting it?

As much sense as that would make, neither Anhur or Sebek have anything like Telemechanics that might be needed to bypass it, and it doesn't say anything about them being unable to use them... although I guess it's possible they paid some Kittani or Phoenix Empire tech to rewire them to be able to be used, so maybe they don't normally work unless it's the GB pulling the trigger?

[Shark_Force]

the entire design requires that the glitter boy is fixed firmly to the boom gun enough that firing the gun doesn't launch it out of your hands and away from you. otherwise, recoil compensation on the glitter boy rather than the boom gun would be silly and pointless.

or, to put it another way... that mount is designed to withstand the repeated recoil generated by the most powerful railgun in the world being applied to it 6-10 times every 15 seconds indefinitely. any impact powerful enough to unmount the boom gun in a single hit could probably destroy the entire suit in 2-3 hits, and using the boom gun instead of whatever you used to knock it off the glitter boy's shoulder would likely be a downgrade.

[Blue_Lion]

As I understand it the boom gun is on a swivel mount attached to the shoulder. The hand aims and fires it on the standard GB. Disarming the GB is likely not about disconnecting the boom gun(I have never seen stats for the mount) but knocking it out of the hand so the pilot has to spend an action to grab it and get it read to be used. So if a disarm is possible on a boom gun it would be to make the pilot choose to spend actions to use and not taking it away from the GB.

[kaid]

As I understand it the boom gun is on a swivel mount attached to the shoulder. The hand aims and fires it on the standard GB. Disarming the GB is likely not about disconnecting the boom gun(I have never seen stats for the mount) but knocking it out of the hand so the pilot has to spend an action to grab it and get it read to be used. So if a disarm is possible on a boom gun it would be to make the pilot choose to spend actions to use and not taking it away from the GB.

This would be pretty much along the lines of what I would think as well. You can't really disarm the gun itself directly short of blowing its anchor point but you could in theory knock the gun sideways or out of its grasp for aiming. It would be a pretty fleeting advantage though as its just going to snap back into position almost instantly. Also some of the glitterboy variants have auto tracking features on the gun so hand aiming is not even required to shoot.

Also given how huge and heavy the boom gun is and how strong a GB is would have to be some pretty spectacular hit to even attempt a disarm/disrupt type action vs a gb.

[Blue_Lion]

As I understand it the boom gun is on a swivel mount attached to the shoulder. The hand aims and fires it on the standard GB. Disarming the GB is likely not about disconnecting the boom gun(I have never seen stats for the mount) but knocking it out of the hand so the pilot has to spend an action to grab it and get it read to be used. So if a disarm is possible on a boom gun it would be to make the pilot choose to spend actions to use and not taking it away from the GB.

This would be pretty much along the lines of what I would think as well. You can't really disarm the gun itself directly short of blowing its anchor point but you could in theory knock the gun sideways or out of its grasp for aiming. It would be a pretty fleeting advantage though as its just going to snap back into position almost instantly. Also some of the glitterboy variants have auto tracking features on the gun so hand aiming is not even required to shoot.

Also given how huge and heavy the boom gun is and how strong a GB is would have to be some pretty spectacular hit to even attempt a disarm/disrupt type action vs a gb.

The triax would snap back instantly but the normal one the pilot has to grab it again and take aim. It was pointed out in the OP that some like the triax do not use hand aiming the traditional one still uses hand aiming and firing.

It may be possible to attempt to stop its use long term with liquid mettle patch system from merc opps. Spraying the liquid mettle in the manual feed port or ejection port and letting it harden is likely to cause a jam preventing more than one shot. Although logical it requires a GM call.

If you want to reduce the guns use long term you would target the recoil comp as that makes its use problematic for the pilot.(they will be tossed around when shooting not much fun for the pilot) The thrusters each have 50MDC (statted in rifts japan) the feed line can be cut think it has around 70MDC not sure what book has the feed line MDC off the top of my head. The triax glitter boy has external sheaths for the pylons.

[say652]

Easier to destroy the hand used to fire the Boomgun

[kaid]

Easier to destroy the hand used to fire the Boomgun

Easier to kill its ammo feed cable. Really if you are close enough to try to disarm go for that damn cable. You DRASTICALLY cut down the amount of shots the GB can use to a few turns worth if you can sever the ammo cable.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

If you're close enough to melee the Glitter Boy, he can't shoot you with the Boom Gun. The barrel would literally be sticking PAST you. It's got at least six feet of reach in front of the armor.

[Blue_Lion]

If you're close enough to melee the Glitter Boy, he can't shoot you with the Boom Gun. The barrel would literally be sticking PAST you. It's got at least six feet of reach in front of the armor.

I recently had some one saying that was not the case, even though every official picture shows the gun hangs down to the knees.

[Damian Magecraft]

If you're close enough to melee the Glitter Boy, he can't shoot you with the Boom Gun. The barrel would literally be sticking PAST you. It's got at least six feet of reach in front of the armor.

I recently had some one saying that was not the case, even though every official picture shows the gun hangs down to the knees.

There are no RAW rules stating a minimum targeting zone...
So by the book you can be in melee range and be shot.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

If you're close enough to melee the Glitter Boy, he can't shoot you with the Boom Gun. The barrel would literally be sticking PAST you. It's got at least six feet of reach in front of the armor.

I recently had some one saying that was not the case, even though every official picture shows the gun hangs down to the knees.

Check out page 222 of the RMB (not sure on RUE) for the "overhead view" pic; the GB is 4' thick; eyeballing it, the Boomgun has 8' of itself sticking out... And the suit is almost 11' tall, with the gun on the very top. You could stand UNDER the gun in melee range. Theres no way it could bear on you in melee range.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

If you're close enough to melee the Glitter Boy, he can't shoot you with the Boom Gun. The barrel would literally be sticking PAST you. It's got at least six feet of reach in front of the armor.

I recently had some one saying that was not the case, even though every official picture shows the gun hangs down to the knees.

There are no RAW rules stating a minimum targeting zone...
So by the book you can be in melee range and be shot.

Theres also no rules saying that the sun comes up, that trees generate oxygen, that water is wet, or any number of equally obvious things that dont need rules. If he cant point the barrel of the gun at you, he cant shoot you.

Theres a reason that in all the descriptions, one of the 'glaring weaknesses' of the Glitter Boy is things closing on it.

[Damian Magecraft]

If you're close enough to melee the Glitter Boy, he can't shoot you with the Boom Gun. The barrel would literally be sticking PAST you. It's got at least six feet of reach in front of the armor.

I recently had some one saying that was not the case, even though every official picture shows the gun hangs down to the knees.

There are no RAW rules stating a minimum targeting zone...
So by the book you can be in melee range and be shot.

Theres also no rules saying that the sun comes up, that trees generate oxygen, that water is wet, or any number of equally obvious things that dont need rules. If he cant point the barrel of the gun at you, he cant shoot you.

Theres a reason that in all the descriptions, one of the 'glaring weaknesses' of the Glitter Boy is things closing on it.

I didn't say it made sense.
Just that by the rules it is legal.

[Zer0 Kay]

If you're close enough to melee the Glitter Boy, he can't shoot you with the Boom Gun. The barrel would literally be sticking PAST you. It's got at least six feet of reach in front of the armor.

I recently had some one saying that was not the case, even though every official picture shows the gun hangs down to the knees.

Which "official" picture? They're all artists concepts. Boom gun over or under the arm. No there are not two different versions just two artists' concepts.

[Zer0 Kay]

As I understand it the boom gun is on a swivel mount attached to the shoulder. The hand aims and fires it on the standard GB. Disarming the GB is likely not about disconnecting the boom gun(I have never seen stats for the mount) but knocking it out of the hand so the pilot has to spend an action to grab it and get it read to be used. So if a disarm is possible on a boom gun it would be to make the pilot choose to spend actions to use and not taking it away from the GB.

Never seen a trigger in any "official" art. The use of the arm may not even be for aiming but rather an additional connection to dissipate and or transfer the energy of the recoil to the suit so the compensators actually work. Maybe both arms can be used while the gun is aimed using the mount but will not fire without the handle gripped because the recoil will eventually break movement mechanisms or break off the mount, either way making it unusable. So unlike disabling the rear thrusters or the claws and anchor breaking either the arm or the mount will eventually break the guns functionality.

[Alrik Vas]

Still, without a hand it's hard to hold the weapon properly. Without that accuracy would be terrible.

[Blue_Lion]

If you're close enough to melee the Glitter Boy, he can't shoot you with the Boom Gun. The barrel would literally be sticking PAST you. It's got at least six feet of reach in front of the armor.

I recently had some one saying that was not the case, even though every official picture shows the gun hangs down to the knees.

Which "official" picture? They're all artists concepts. Boom gun over or under the arm. No there are not two different versions just two artists' concepts.

I do not think I have ever seen a picure of a GB with its arm over the boom gun. The pictures of the concept found in the OCC write up are the same ones that have been used since the game was created. They are to help visualize how the GB works and how it looks.

[Blue_Lion]

As I understand it the boom gun is on a swivel mount attached to the shoulder. The hand aims and fires it on the standard GB. Disarming the GB is likely not about disconnecting the boom gun(I have never seen stats for the mount) but knocking it out of the hand so the pilot has to spend an action to grab it and get it read to be used. So if a disarm is possible on a boom gun it would be to make the pilot choose to spend actions to use and not taking it away from the GB.

Never seen a trigger in any "official" art. The use of the arm may not even be for aiming but rather an additional connection to dissipate and or transfer the energy of the recoil to the suit so the compensators actually work. Maybe both arms can be used while the gun is aimed using the mount but will not fire without the handle gripped because the recoil will eventually break movement mechanisms or break off the mount, either way making it unusable. So unlike disabling the rear thrusters or the claws and anchor breaking either the arm or the mount will eventually break the guns functionality.

The triax glitter boy is lighter and is does not use hands at all. If you look when a weapon is hand held and fired by other commands they say so. You see an example of this in the GG. The concept seams to largely suggest the hand controls the boom gun. We lack stats for the mount so we do not know what it takes to break it. Seams a forward support would be more about countering weight and maintaining aim than absorbing recoil. Leverage wise there would be allot of force applied to the mount from the front of the weapon.

[Zer0 Kay]

If you're close enough to melee the Glitter Boy, he can't shoot you with the Boom Gun. The barrel would literally be sticking PAST you. It's got at least six feet of reach in front of the armor.

I recently had some one saying that was not the case, even though every official picture shows the gun hangs down to the knees.

Which "official" picture? They're all artists concepts. Boom gun over or under the arm. No there are not two different versions just two artists' concepts.

I do not think I have ever seen a picure of a GB with its arm over the boom gun. The pictures of the concept found in the OCC write up are the same ones that have been used since the game was created. They are to help visualize how the GB works and how it looks.

And yet your belief does not negate its existence. Iirc Chaos Earth

[Zer0 Kay]

Still, without a hand it's hard to hold the weapon properly. Without that accuracy would be terrible.

Agreed

[Axelmania]

I think initially I read "to the back and right shoulder" as "back of the right shoulder" when it could be talking about 2 positions. The "back" connection being the ammo port while the 'right shoulder' could be a separate connection, as opposed to a free-floating butt.

Based on the pics, if it connects to the shoulder this would be roughly at the point on the gun where the ammo belt inserts, when the main gun is illustrated by itself from the side the big circular portion before the stripy-looking narrow portion before it widens out to the tube with the fins at the back.

I'm beginning to think there is indeed a hinge that needs to be severed after noticing the Long/Siembieda illustration showing the front/left of the GB. This is on page 65 in the original (about 9/10 page tall) and page 71 of Ultimate (about 1/2 page tall, smaller)

What it looks like is you have the normal shoulder plate same as the left but then there is a big tube on top of it which the gun has a smaller tube which fits into.

At first this looks like a basic hinge but it might be slightly ball-jointed in the middle. I think that has to be the explanation because the shoulder plates of the GB look fixed to the torso, I don't think it has its own scapular mobility.

the entire design requires that the glitter boy is fixed firmly to the boom gun enough that firing the gun doesn't launch it out of your hands and away from you. otherwise, recoil compensation on the glitter boy rather than the boom gun would be silly and pointless.

or, to put it another way... that mount is designed to withstand the repeated recoil generated by the most powerful railgun in the world being applied to it 6-10 times every 15 seconds indefinitely. any impact powerful enough to unmount the boom gun in a single hit could probably destroy the entire suit in 2-3 hits, and using the boom gun instead of whatever you used to knock it off the glitter boy's shoulder would likely be a downgrade.

A lot of that is direction-based though. Being able to absord front/back recoil doesn't mean the boomgun has the same protections from left/right or up/down.

Think for example, of the force needed to crush bricks vs the force needed to lift 1 brick off it or push a wall of bricks (uncemented) over. Being resistance to compression doesn't mean you're resistant to other means of altering you. You also have reverse cases, like rope resisting traction but not compression.

Visually, based on the mobility the boom gun has, it only looks to be connceted by the ammo belt and have a butt which allows the force to be transferred gun>shoulder instead of gun>hand>arm>shoulder

As I understand it the boom gun is on a swivel mount attached to the shoulder. The hand aims and fires it on the standard GB. Disarming the GB is likely not about disconnecting the boom gun(I have never seen stats for the mount) but knocking it out of the hand so the pilot has to spend an action to grab it and get it read to be used. So if a disarm is possible on a boom gun it would be to make the pilot choose to spend actions to use and not taking it away from the GB.

Yeah, the ammo belt is probably short enough that the proximal end would free-float and make it easier to grab than something on the ground, the pilot could probably grab the handle without bending over or stopping, for example.

But it's still a hassle and also gives you the chance to do stuff like take control of the gun, maybe stick your own hand around the grip to prevent the Glitter Boy from getting his in their, etc.

Or maybe using the boom gun as a blunt weapon to smack the GB in the face to annoy them, or inflict minor MD if you had supernatural strength.

You could also pull on the gun to stretch out the ammo belt tight. If a GM were trying to determine penalties on how hard it was to hit the ammo belt, wanting to sever it with a sword or something. I'd imagine slightly smaller penalties to strike if you held it out like that compared to when it's bend in half under slack bouncing around behind them.

Also given how huge and heavy the boom gun is and how strong a GB is would have to be some pretty spectacular hit to even attempt a disarm/disrupt type action vs a gb.

Yes, but given how much damage it does, strong creatures like a dragon who can be stronger than a GB could have strong incentive to do so, either to protect themselves or mortal companions.

Easier to destroy the hand used to fire the Boomgun

Is it though? With bad damage rolls or low damage attacks it might take several to inflict the 100 MDC needed. Disarming might be a temporary solution but it's also one which can work instantaneously on a successful attack roll.

Easier to kill its ammo feed cable. Really if you are close enough to try to disarm go for that damn cable. You DRASTICALLY cut down the amount of shots the GB can use to a few turns worth if you can sever the ammo cable.

Which model has assigned MDC and strike penalty for this though?

If you're close enough to melee the Glitter Boy, he can't shoot you with the Boom Gun. The barrel would literally be sticking PAST you. It's got at least six feet of reach in front of the armor.

This would logically make sense in the case of human opponents in hand-to-hand or using short-reach weapons. In the case of dragons or using long weapons like halberds it might not be true though.

There are no RAW rules stating a minimum targeting zone...
So by the book you can be in melee range and be shot.

I could be entangling a Glitter Boy's left arm and he could still use his right to shoot me with the Boom Gun.

Even though logically aiming across the body like that would prevent you from resting the proximal butt of the Boomgun against your shoulder to be able to transfer the recoil.

If you're close enough to melee the Glitter Boy, he can't shoot you with the Boom Gun. The barrel would literally be sticking PAST you. It's got at least six feet of reach in front of the armor.

I recently had some one saying that was not the case, even though every official picture shows the gun hangs down to the knees.

Which "official" picture? They're all artists concepts. Boom gun over or under the arm. No there are not two different versions just two artists' concepts.

The text says when not in use it'd flipped back and stored in an "upward position". Reading that I would assume this means barrel-up which Kevin Long's artwork conflicts with since it is barrel-down. We also see this on page 68 of Ultimate Edition by a different artist.

Then again, "upward position" doesn't necessarily say which end is up, so Long's art could be canon if you read that as "ass end up" so to speak.

Stuff with text accompanying illustrations could be seen as more than "artist's concepts". The "Glitter Boy Recoil Suppression" and "Above View" for example is a strong argument that a boom gun can fire to the right without the torso turning to the right, for example, since the dotted-line silhouette only changes for the gun and the thrusters.

This would mean that if it is connected to the power armor through anything other than the ammo belt, that it can't be a simple hinge, it would have to be multi-hinged or ball-socketed or something.

Never seen a trigger in any "official" art.

You're right... for some reason I thought there was but in multiple cases it looks like just a handle. The "trigger" is probably within the forearm of the PA with the pilot's hands, with a signal transferred either via radio or via the ball-socket or ammo-belt connections.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

If you're close enough to melee the Glitter Boy, he can't shoot you with the Boom Gun. The barrel would literally be sticking PAST you. It's got at least six feet of reach in front of the armor.

I recently had some one saying that was not the case, even though every official picture shows the gun hangs down to the knees.

There are no RAW rules stating a minimum targeting zone...
So by the book you can be in melee range and be shot.

Theres also no rules saying that the sun comes up, that trees generate oxygen, that water is wet, or any number of equally obvious things that dont need rules. If he cant point the barrel of the gun at you, he cant shoot you.

Theres a reason that in all the descriptions, one of the 'glaring weaknesses' of the Glitter Boy is things closing on it.

I didn't say it made sense.
Just that by the rules it is legal.

So youre trying to say that in the Palladium rules, you can shoot at a target wihout being able to point the working end of the weapon at said target? I can point my Wilks 457 downrange and hit the guy standing behind me? Ill bite, lets get a page referrence on that.

[Damian Magecraft]

Haven't we been down thus road before?
The onus is not on me but you to provide a quote giving the boom gun a minimum range. (Other than "common sense").
palladium has established with other weapons that do use a minimum range statistic.

As to your hyperbolic example?
Palladium doesn't use facing rules so yes you can shoot the target behind you.

[Damian Magecraft]

Just to be clear.
I have not at any point said I agree with the RAW concerning this.
Only what the RAW shows us.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Didn't read the entire thread, but read the first couple and the last couple.

I'll be replying to the last few 'first'.

No there are no 'minimum range' rules in palladium. You can put a gun right up to someone's head and pull the trigger if you want. Boom.

That said, I disagree with Damian here. It's not a matter of 'minimum range' you could indeed press the muzzle of a boomgun up to someone's head and pull the grigger. BOOM.

it's a matter of what is called "Defilade"

I.E. the weapon can't hit what's 'under' it's arc of fire. If your gun is... just for example. 10 feet long.. and someone can get 5 feet from your chest.. you can't 'shoot' them with the 10 foot gun because the end of the barrel is past where you're now standing. You can wack them with the gun or shove them out to try and get them to the end of your gun to then shoot them point blank, or try and run backwards or jump back wards but if they're inside that range you can't 'shoot' them.

This usually happens if there's height differences. Someone up on a building for example has a real hard time shooting someone straight down, or 'under' an overhang. sure their bullets will reach the 'ground' but if the people are under even a slight overhang, you can't lean out far enough to shoot under that overhang or something to hit them.

In the glitterboy's case this is exasperated. The gun IS literally like 8 feet long, and is firmly attached to the armor's shoulder. it could be on an amazing ball joint, and have alot of play, but the gun can't bend at it's midpoint, nor will it be able to bend 'around' the glitter boy's head. The glitter boy can pivot at the hips. (Maybe 75,80 degrees if you're being really generous) but they have to be anchored to the earth to fire as well, which also exasperates the problem. if someone got in very close and on the 'off side' of the glitterboy or partially behind, the situation would say the glitterboy couldn't hit him.

This isn't a rule. This s common sense. Most of the time you can't shoot around a corner either, but there's no 'corner' rules. Just special exemptions if something 'can'. In this case the nature of the glitter boy and the length of the gun makes the 'corner' the glitter boy can't shoot around.

Thing is... it takes alot to get that close to a glitter boy they have HUGE range.. and if you ARE that close they can still punch and kick you with robot combat (or club you with the giant cannon) To get you out that 10 feet or so to be out of the defilade and able to be shot.. They're not 100% helpless. You'd think this would be on day 'two' of glitter boy training.

Day one involving how to walk, and put on the suit... and rule 1 "ALWAYS SINK PYLONS BEFORE PULLING THE TRIGGER"

Day two "Don't let people get on your blind side or inside the firing arch of your cannon. that's -bad-. Like Ghostbusters crossing the streams bad"

[Pepsi Jedi]

To answer the original question, the Boom gun is affixed to theglitter boy. You can't 'disarm' him in the traditional sense, because even if you knock it out of his hand, it ain't going anywhere except over his shoulder to it's locking position or.. back to his hand.

You might be able to knock it out for an attack, but he could grab it the next one.

We just blow it up. (The gun)

[Damian Magecraft]

Didn't read the entire thread, but read the first couple and the last couple.

I'll be replying to the last few 'first'.

No there are no 'minimum range' rules in palladium. You can put a gun right up to someone's head and pull the trigger if you want. Boom.

That said, I disagree with Damian here. It's not a matter of 'minimum range' you could indeed press the muzzle of a boomgun up to someone's head and pull the grigger. BOOM.

it's a matter of what is called "Defilade"

I.E. the weapon can't hit what's 'under' it's arc of fire. If your gun is... just for example. 10 feet long.. and someone can get 5 feet from your chest.. you can't 'shoot' them with the 10 foot gun because the end of the barrel is past where you're now standing. You can wack them with the gun or shove them out to try and get them to the end of your gun to then shoot them point blank, or try and run backwards or jump back wards but if they're inside that range you can't 'shoot' them.

This usually happens if there's height differences. Someone up on a building for example has a real hard time shooting someone straight down, or 'under' an overhang. sure their bullets will reach the 'ground' but if the people are under even a slight overhang, you can't lean out far enough to shoot under that overhang or something to hit them.

In the glitterboy's case this is exasperated. The gun IS literally like 8 feet long, and is firmly attached to the armor's shoulder. it could be on an amazing ball joint, and have alot of play, but the gun can't bend at it's midpoint, nor will it be able to bend 'around' the glitter boy's head. The glitter boy can pivot at the hips. (Maybe 75,80 degrees if you're being really generous) but they have to be anchored to the earth to fire as well, which also exasperates the problem. if someone got in very close and on the 'off side' of the glitterboy or partially behind, the situation would say the glitterboy couldn't hit him.

This isn't a rule. This s common sense. Most of the time you can't shoot around a corner either, but there's no 'corner' rules. Just special exemptions if something 'can'. In this case the nature of the glitter boy and the length of the gun makes the 'corner' the glitter boy can't shoot around.

Thing is... it takes alot to get that close to a glitter boy they have HUGE range.. and if you ARE that close they can still punch and kick you with robot combat (or club you with the giant cannon) To get you out that 10 feet or so to be out of the defilade and able to be shot.. They're not 100% helpless. You'd think this would be on day 'two' of glitter boy training.

Day one involving how to walk, and put on the suit... and rule 1 "ALWAYS SINK PYLONS BEFORE PULLING THE TRIGGER"

Day two "Don't let people get on your blind side or inside the firing arch of your cannon. that's -bad-. Like Ghostbusters crossing the streams bad"

actually by listing a minimum range on a handful of weapons palladium has established such a rule.
In exception based games (such as Rifts) if no number is given for a statistic then the minimum is assumed (unless the rules state otherwise).
in the case of the boomgun that minimum By The Rules would be zero.
does it make sense? No.
should it be allowed? Yes.
common sense does say it should.
however the RAW does not support it.

[Damian Magecraft]

This is one of those absurdities of the rules I wish I was wrong on.
I noticed it a long time ago.
But...
I am currently at work and going by memory.
Is the length of the Boomgun listed in its write up? That would change the assumed minimum range from zero to the end of the barrel.

Otherwise it's a case RAW not matching RAI.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Didn't read the entire thread, but read the first couple and the last couple.

I'll be replying to the last few 'first'.

No there are no 'minimum range' rules in palladium. You can put a gun right up to someone's head and pull the trigger if you want. Boom.

That said, I disagree with Damian here. It's not a matter of 'minimum range' you could indeed press the muzzle of a boomgun up to someone's head and pull the grigger. BOOM.

it's a matter of what is called "Defilade"

I.E. the weapon can't hit what's 'under' it's arc of fire. If your gun is... just for example. 10 feet long.. and someone can get 5 feet from your chest.. you can't 'shoot' them with the 10 foot gun because the end of the barrel is past where you're now standing. You can wack them with the gun or shove them out to try and get them to the end of your gun to then shoot them point blank, or try and run backwards or jump back wards but if they're inside that range you can't 'shoot' them.

This usually happens if there's height differences. Someone up on a building for example has a real hard time shooting someone straight down, or 'under' an overhang. sure their bullets will reach the 'ground' but if the people are under even a slight overhang, you can't lean out far enough to shoot under that overhang or something to hit them.

In the glitterboy's case this is exasperated. The gun IS literally like 8 feet long, and is firmly attached to the armor's shoulder. it could be on an amazing ball joint, and have alot of play, but the gun can't bend at it's midpoint, nor will it be able to bend 'around' the glitter boy's head. The glitter boy can pivot at the hips. (Maybe 75,80 degrees if you're being really generous) but they have to be anchored to the earth to fire as well, which also exasperates the problem. if someone got in very close and on the 'off side' of the glitterboy or partially behind, the situation would say the glitterboy couldn't hit him.

This isn't a rule. This s common sense. Most of the time you can't shoot around a corner either, but there's no 'corner' rules. Just special exemptions if something 'can'. In this case the nature of the glitter boy and the length of the gun makes the 'corner' the glitter boy can't shoot around.

Thing is... it takes alot to get that close to a glitter boy they have HUGE range.. and if you ARE that close they can still punch and kick you with robot combat (or club you with the giant cannon) To get you out that 10 feet or so to be out of the defilade and able to be shot.. They're not 100% helpless. You'd think this would be on day 'two' of glitter boy training.

Day one involving how to walk, and put on the suit... and rule 1 "ALWAYS SINK PYLONS BEFORE PULLING THE TRIGGER"

Day two "Don't let people get on your blind side or inside the firing arch of your cannon. that's -bad-. Like Ghostbusters crossing the streams bad"

actually by listing a minimum range on a handful of weapons palladium has established such a rule.
In exception based games (such as Rifts) if no number is given for a statistic then the minimum is assumed (unless the rules state otherwise).
in the case of the boomgun that minimum By The Rules would be zero.
does it make sense? No.
should it be allowed? Yes.
common sense does say it should.
however the RAW does not support it.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence. The ruling you're trying toi make is "It's stupid but they didn't say you couldn't so you can"

That's not right at all. As pointed out the books don't say water is wet either but it is.

If your gun is 10 feet long, you can't shoot someone 2 feet from your shoulder because the gun extends further. Now.. being that close to the Glitterboy opens you up to other problems (Getting glitter punched for one) But you can't just say "oh they didn't say you CAN'T Bend it in the middle so you can"

Physics won't allow for such things.

Take a breath Damian and use common sense. (Yes even in Rifts there's some to be had) The boom gun doesn't articulate (in the middle). The only way this would work is if you could hold it out and basicly point it at yourself, you cannot do this, 1) Due to length and 2) Due to it being afixed over your shoulder on your back.

[Damian Magecraft]

Didn't read the entire thread, but read the first couple and the last couple.

I'll be replying to the last few 'first'.

No there are no 'minimum range' rules in palladium. You can put a gun right up to someone's head and pull the trigger if you want. Boom.

That said, I disagree with Damian here. It's not a matter of 'minimum range' you could indeed press the muzzle of a boomgun up to someone's head and pull the grigger. BOOM.

it's a matter of what is called "Defilade"

I.E. the weapon can't hit what's 'under' it's arc of fire. If your gun is... just for example. 10 feet long.. and someone can get 5 feet from your chest.. you can't 'shoot' them with the 10 foot gun because the end of the barrel is past where you're now standing. You can wack them with the gun or shove them out to try and get them to the end of your gun to then shoot them point blank, or try and run backwards or jump back wards but if they're inside that range you can't 'shoot' them.

This usually happens if there's height differences. Someone up on a building for example has a real hard time shooting someone straight down, or 'under' an overhang. sure their bullets will reach the 'ground' but if the people are under even a slight overhang, you can't lean out far enough to shoot under that overhang or something to hit them.

In the glitterboy's case this is exasperated. The gun IS literally like 8 feet long, and is firmly attached to the armor's shoulder. it could be on an amazing ball joint, and have alot of play, but the gun can't bend at it's midpoint, nor will it be able to bend 'around' the glitter boy's head. The glitter boy can pivot at the hips. (Maybe 75,80 degrees if you're being really generous) but they have to be anchored to the earth to fire as well, which also exasperates the problem. if someone got in very close and on the 'off side' of the glitterboy or partially behind, the situation would say the glitterboy couldn't hit him.

This isn't a rule. This s common sense. Most of the time you can't shoot around a corner either, but there's no 'corner' rules. Just special exemptions if something 'can'. In this case the nature of the glitter boy and the length of the gun makes the 'corner' the glitter boy can't shoot around.

Thing is... it takes alot to get that close to a glitter boy they have HUGE range.. and if you ARE that close they can still punch and kick you with robot combat (or club you with the giant cannon) To get you out that 10 feet or so to be out of the defilade and able to be shot.. They're not 100% helpless. You'd think this would be on day 'two' of glitter boy training.

Day one involving how to walk, and put on the suit... and rule 1 "ALWAYS SINK PYLONS BEFORE PULLING THE TRIGGER"

Day two "Don't let people get on your blind side or inside the firing arch of your cannon. that's -bad-. Like Ghostbusters crossing the streams bad"

actually by listing a minimum range on a handful of weapons palladium has established such a rule.
In exception based games (such as Rifts) if no number is given for a statistic then the minimum is assumed (unless the rules state otherwise).
in the case of the boomgun that minimum By The Rules would be zero.
does it make sense? No.
should it be allowed? Yes.
common sense does say it should.
however the RAW does not support it.

Absence of proof isn't proof of absence. The ruling you're trying toi make is "It's stupid but they didn't say you couldn't so you can"

That's not right at all. As pointed out the books don't say water is wet either but it is.

If your gun is 10 feet long, you can't shoot someone 2 feet from your shoulder because the gun extends further. Now.. being that close to the Glitterboy opens you up to other problems (Getting glitter punched for one) But you can't just say "oh they didn't say you CAN'T Bend it in the middle so you can"

Physics won't allow for such things.

Take a breath Damian and use common sense. (Yes even in Rifts there's some to be had) The boom gun doesn't articulate (in the middle). The only way this would work is if you could hold it out and basicly point it at yourself, you cannot do this, 1) Due to length and 2) Due to it being afixed over your shoulder on your back.

you are missing the point.
Mechanically the rules support firing the bg in melee.
As I pointed out earlier up thread (had you bothered to read it) I dont agree with RAW and think common sense should apply.
But the rules do not support the logical outcome.

[Shark_Force]

the entire design requires that the glitter boy is fixed firmly to the boom gun enough that firing the gun doesn't launch it out of your hands and away from you. otherwise, recoil compensation on the glitter boy rather than the boom gun would be silly and pointless.

or, to put it another way... that mount is designed to withstand the repeated recoil generated by the most powerful railgun in the world being applied to it 6-10 times every 15 seconds indefinitely. any impact powerful enough to unmount the boom gun in a single hit could probably destroy the entire suit in 2-3 hits, and using the boom gun instead of whatever you used to knock it off the glitter boy's shoulder would likely be a downgrade.

A lot of that is direction-based though. Being able to absord front/back recoil doesn't mean the boomgun has the same protections from left/right or up/down.

Think for example, of the force needed to crush bricks vs the force needed to lift 1 brick off it or push a wall of bricks (uncemented) over. Being resistance to compression doesn't mean you're resistant to other means of altering you. You also have reverse cases, like rope resisting traction but not compression.

Visually, based on the mobility the boom gun has, it only looks to be connceted by the ammo belt and have a butt which allows the force to be transferred gun>shoulder instead of gun>hand>arm>shoulder

that's all very nice, i'm sure, but if the boom gun is not attached by a mount capable of withstanding tremendous forces at a variety of angles, firing it would be like some horrible nightmare. if you've done much physics, you should know that you can generally break down a given force into multiple smaller forces applied in different directions, the sum of which will add up to the total force. or, to put it another way... if you have the boom gun aimed even 1 degree off of being perfectly straight "forward" from the glitter boy, there will be some force applied 'sideways'. this force will be less than the full force of the boom gun's recoil, but we're still talking about a rather large number because 1% of enough force to rip through half a dozen modern main battle tanks at a 2 mile range in pure kinetic energy is still a lot of force. if you're just bracing it against the shoulder, any angle other than 0 degrees to the glitter boy will cause the boom gun to just go flying off to one side or the other, and in the absence of special rules for how the recoil impacts people who haven't undergone intense training for years to be able to always keep the boom gun at that perfect angle, the only reasonable assumption is that for some reason or another those rules are not needed.

likewise if the gun was pointed even a tiny bit up or down. and as i recall, the gun is noted as being able to handle a much wider range of angles than 0 degrees. we must therefore conclude that there is a mount, and the mount must be capable of withstanding repeated tremendous amounts of force applied to it in a variety of directions. it simply does not make sense that it would be able to function at all without that.

[Zer0 Kay]

Use of BG in melee does make sense. Unless the GB is being grappled or entangled why the hell is it going to stand still in melee? The opponent advances into melee range and attacks what is keeping the GB from hopping back six feet and firing six feet is still in melee range. The same can be said for someone using a pole arm or greatsword yet no one argues those can't be used in melee. Kicking ones opponent back before shooting them or holding them out to the side at the end of the left arm and shoot them sideways.

[PigLickJF]

Zer0 Kay just made the point I was going to make. Combat mechanics are abstract, just because someone closes to "melee range" doesn't mean both combatants are just standing there an arm's length apart and not moving. If the GB were a tank or some sort of less-mobile vehicle it would be one thing, but the length of the gun on a basically man-sized, highly mobile suit of power armor isn't really a factor in my mind.

[Alrik Vas]

I think there might be some difference of opinion on how long it takes the GB to plant itself and how quickly it can disengage.

I like to think it's quick and they can back away with relative ease, but regardless of that, if someone closes in and has decent strength and technique, I don't see why they can't use disarm to force the GB to spend an action recovering to get to the firing position.

It's largely dependent on the dice rolls and how the combat is described.

Firing the gun in melee is possible though, in my opinion. There is nothing in the rules that says it's more difficult. It would be nice if the system had rules like that, but that's not Palladium.

[Blue_Lion]

Use of BG in melee does make sense. Unless the GB is being grappled or entangled why the hell is it going to stand still in melee? The opponent advances into melee range and attacks what is keeping the GB from hopping back six feet and firing six feet is still in melee range. The same can be said for someone using a pole arm or greatsword yet no one argues those can't be used in melee. Kicking ones opponent back before shooting them or holding them out to the side at the end of the left arm and shoot them sideways.

Can the GB fire on the move or kick and shoot in one action.
Kicking some one back would be an attack so you can not kick them back and shoot them.
The GB needs to fire stabilizer pylons in the ground to shoot not some thing you can do on the move.

Use of a boom gun in melee is nothing like a greate sword or polearm in melee(both of wich are melee weapons. A great sword may be 5-6 feet long but all most the whole length of is capable of cutting. Some pole arms are not effective at sword range. Niether the pole arm or great sword require the use of stabilizing pylongs. For a boom gun to shoot you you need to be infront of its barrel Giving the scale of the boom gun some one fighting with a sword or knife would be in to close to shoot them. With the recoil sysem hopping and shooting is unlikely.

People keep saying the sytem does not say you can't shoot in melee but it never says you can. It also does not say you can't shoot something hugging your face with a boom gun. In other words the mecanics neither allow or disallow such actions but require a GM to say when a normal action can not be done. Logically there is no reason to allow a 9 foot tall robot to shoot some one with a gun that goes down to its knees when they are standing right next to it.


So until some one can find a quote that says you can shoot some one in melee range with a boom gun stop making unsupported statements that the mechanics say you can.
(There are many statements on books about the weakness of a GB is closing in on it supports a weakness. With nothing saying you can shoot the boom gun at targets in mellee range. Heck I do not think the rules say you can't shoot some one buttoned up inside a tank are you going to argue that you can.)

[Damian Magecraft]

I think there might be some difference of opinion on how long it takes the GB to plant itself and how quickly it can disengage.

I like to think it's quick and they can back away with relative ease, but regardless of that, if someone closes in and has decent strength and technique, I don't see why they can't use disarm to force the GB to spend an action recovering to get to the firing position.

It's largely dependent on the dice rolls and how the combat is described.

Firing the gun in melee is possible though, in my opinion. There is nothing in the rules that says it's more difficult. It would be nice if the system had rules like that, but that's not Palladium.

With how the rules are written the pylons activate the moment the gun is fired.
This however does not match the fluff of how slow the use of the BG is.

[Damian Magecraft]

Use of BG in melee does make sense. Unless the GB is being grappled or entangled why the hell is it going to stand still in melee? The opponent advances into melee range and attacks what is keeping the GB from hopping back six feet and firing six feet is still in melee range. The same can be said for someone using a pole arm or greatsword yet no one argues those can't be used in melee. Kicking ones opponent back before shooting them or holding them out to the side at the end of the left arm and shoot them sideways.

Can the GB fire on the move or kick and shoot in one action.
Kicking some one back would be an attack so you can not kick them back and shoot them.
The GB needs to fire stabilizer pylons in the ground to shoot not some thing you can do on the move.

Use of a boom gun in melee is nothing like a greate sword or polearm in melee(both of wich are melee weapons. A great sword may be 5-6 feet long but all most the whole length of is capable of cutting. Some pole arms are not effective at sword range. Niether the pole arm or great sword require the use of stabilizing pylongs. For a boom gun to shoot you you need to be infront of its barrel Giving the scale of the boom gun some one fighting with a sword or knife would be in to close to shoot them. With the recoil sysem hopping and shooting is unlikely.

People keep saying the sytem does not say you can't shoot in melee but it never says you can. It also does not say you can't shoot something hugging your face with a boom gun. In other words the mecanics neither allow or disallow such actions but require a GM to say when a normal action can not be done. Logically there is no reason to allow a 9 foot tall robot to shoot some one with a gun that goes down to its knees when they are standing right next to it.


So until some one can find a quote that says you can shoot some one in melee range with a boom gun stop making unsupported statements that the mechanics say you can.
(There are many statements on books about the weakness of a GB is closing in on it supports a weakness. With nothing saying you can shoot the boom gun at targets in mellee range. Heck I do not think the rules say you can't shoot some one buttoned up inside a tank are you going to argue that you can.)

cute...
trying to argue an absurdity with another.
the rules do make it clear that in order to shoot the target in the tank you must first somehow pry him out of all that extra armor.

[Blue_Lion]

Use of BG in melee does make sense. Unless the GB is being grappled or entangled why the hell is it going to stand still in melee? The opponent advances into melee range and attacks what is keeping the GB from hopping back six feet and firing six feet is still in melee range. The same can be said for someone using a pole arm or greatsword yet no one argues those can't be used in melee. Kicking ones opponent back before shooting them or holding them out to the side at the end of the left arm and shoot them sideways.

Can the GB fire on the move or kick and shoot in one action.
Kicking some one back would be an attack so you can not kick them back and shoot them.
The GB needs to fire stabilizer pylons in the ground to shoot not some thing you can do on the move.

Use of a boom gun in melee is nothing like a greate sword or polearm in melee(both of wich are melee weapons. A great sword may be 5-6 feet long but all most the whole length of is capable of cutting. Some pole arms are not effective at sword range. Niether the pole arm or great sword require the use of stabilizing pylongs. For a boom gun to shoot you you need to be infront of its barrel Giving the scale of the boom gun some one fighting with a sword or knife would be in to close to shoot them. With the recoil sysem hopping and shooting is unlikely.

People keep saying the sytem does not say you can't shoot in melee but it never says you can. It also does not say you can't shoot something hugging your face with a boom gun. In other words the mecanics neither allow or disallow such actions but require a GM to say when a normal action can not be done. Logically there is no reason to allow a 9 foot tall robot to shoot some one with a gun that goes down to its knees when they are standing right next to it.


So until some one can find a quote that says you can shoot some one in melee range with a boom gun stop making unsupported statements that the mechanics say you can.
(There are many statements on books about the weakness of a GB is closing in on it supports a weakness. With nothing saying you can shoot the boom gun at targets in mellee range. Heck I do not think the rules say you can't shoot some one buttoned up inside a tank are you going to argue that you can.)

cute...
trying to argue an absurdity with another.
the rules do make it clear that in order to shoot the target in the tank you must first somehow pry him out of all that extra armor.

Really do you have a page number for a quote?

The point was that the rules do not say you can shoot a target with the boomgun that you can't point the weapon at. The part about the tank was about showing how absurd the argument was.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

First off, lets be clear:

I dont think anyone (i haven't read the last few posts yet) is claiming that there are minimum-range rules in Palladium or that if there are (they tend to be weapon-specific in the few cases i can think of, and also dont apply to "can you shoot them" but rather "target must be this wide or this far away to hit with both guns") they are somehow in question here.

They aren't.

This is purely about the basic rule that you have to be able to point the business end of your gun at the target, to be able to hit them, regardless of the range.

That's it. That's the only thing at play here.

The only reason range is playing into this argument at all is because if you are that close to the GB, it cannot point the business end of the barrel at you.

In most cases, particularly for targets that are of a similar size (both humanoid size, for instance), it will rarely ever come up, because even holding a rifle i can choke up on it and fire from the hip, and the barrel wont be sticking out much more than 5-6" from my frame, meaning i can point blank shot you all day long, because, as has been pointed out, there are no "minimum range" rules. But in that case, I CAN point the business end of the barrel at you.

Otherwise, what you're trying to claim is that the rules dont say you have to be able to point the barrel at someone and have a way to hit them. If that's the case, post up that page number and (preferrably) a quote. Otherwise, you're wrong, and we're done here.

[Axelmania]

Is the length of the Boomgun listed in its write up? That would change the assumed minimum range from zero to the end of the barrel.

Otherwise it's a case RAW not matching RAI.

It's not exactly 'written' as having a 0 foot barrel though...

I think the Triax model mentioned some added feet when it's in storage mode pointing up, but it looks to have a shorter barrel than the usual model.

If we look at the front/back Long illustration, the gun is nearly as tall as the PA itself, so 8ft is a pretty good estimate. We could do the exact measurements and convert it to a 10 foot scale but it doesn't seem very important.

That said, it looks like when firing that the rear portion of the boom gun is behind the PA, so I's say the range is more like 5-6 feet from the front of the PA rather than 8.

To answer the original question, the Boom gun is affixed to theglitter boy. You can't 'disarm' him in the traditional sense, because even if you knock it out of his hand, it ain't going anywhere except over his shoulder to it's locking position or.. back to his hand.

You might be able to knock it out for an attack, but he could grab it the next one.

We just blow it up. (The gun)

Even a single attack is really useful though, and if you wanted to capture the armor it might be better to keep disarming the gun while someone else dealt with trying to hack the locking mechanism or remove the helmet or something like that. As much MDC as it has, the gun is arguably the most useful part of the PA, so I wouldn't want to wreck it.

Knocking it out of hand is good enough. If it were a loose floppy ammo belt affixing it as I had originally thought then I think it would take more than one attack to retrieve the gun, but 1 attackseems reasonable considering the impressive above-shoulder hinge you can see from certain angles like the Long/Siembieda work or the Chaos Earth cover.

Once it is out of hand though, if you then entangled or did a hold on the glitter boy's arm then you could possibly stop them from being able to retrieve it. While if you did an entangle while they were still holding the gun I don't think it would necessarily stop them from shooting since entangle traditionally stops swinging/stabbing motions for melee attacks.

Then there's also... if you wrapped your own hands around the handle that could make it hard for the GB's hand to grab it, although if it were normal hands it could probably just crush them into paste, at worst making the grip a littler slippery.

Also it looks like the handle for the boom gun folds up into the stock... if you managed to do that then you could lengthen the time needed to tag it out, right?

Also, could you possibly cast the spell "Seal" on the little door the handle's stored in, preventing it from coming out?

Mechanically the rules support firing the bg in melee.

Mechanically the rules would also support firing a 20 foot tank cannon at someone sitting in the tank pilot's area =/ Rules support GM intervention for obvious snafus.

the gun is noted as being able to handle a much wider range of angles than 0 degrees. we must therefore conclude that there is a mount, and the mount must be capable of withstanding repeated tremendous amounts of force applied to it in a variety of directions. it simply does not make sense that it would be able to function at all without that.

This point is moot since I saw some other pictures which showed a clear hinge (I think probably ball socket due to some narrowing but it's not the clearest angle) but were that not there, I think with a properly versatile shoulder pad and butt that a rifle could be braced against the shoulder from multiple angles.

Use of BG in melee does make sense. Unless the GB is being grappled or entangled why the hell is it going to stand still in melee? The opponent advances into melee range and attacks what is keeping the GB from hopping back six feet and firing six feet is still in melee range. The same can be said for someone using a pole arm or greatsword yet no one argues those can't be used in melee. Kicking ones opponent back before shooting them or holding them out to the side at the end of the left arm and shoot them sideways.

I guess it's more of a consideration if you're fighting the Glitter-Boy with his back to a cliff or minefield, or Carpet of Adhesion. Assuming some amount of motion like a tactical retreat of a short distance to control range with a longer-range weapon does make sense. Although grabbing/kicking wouldn't be covered since those are their own attacks.

With how the rules are written the pylons activate the moment the gun is fired.
This however does not match the fluff of how slow the use of the BG is.

I always envisioned them locking down like a Siege Tank does in StarCraft, would definitely house-rule as a GM that locking in or unlocking the pylons takes a full action.

[Zer0 Kay]

Use of BG in melee does make sense. Unless the GB is being grappled or entangled why the hell is it going to stand still in melee? The opponent advances into melee range and attacks what is keeping the GB from hopping back six feet and firing six feet is still in melee range. The same can be said for someone using a pole arm or greatsword yet no one argues those can't be used in melee. Kicking ones opponent back before shooting them or holding them out to the side at the end of the left arm and shoot them sideways.

Can the GB fire on the move or kick and shoot in one action.dunnoh, is the pilot a regular GB pilot or is he from N&S with some sort of martial art that has a combo move?
Kicking some one back would be an attack so you can not kick them back and shoot them.
If the GB has more actions than whoever is attacking him doesn't matter if they happen at the same time kick one action, oh your opponent doesn't have one, shoot second action.
The GB needs to fire stabilizer pylons in the ground to shoot not some thing you can do on the move.
Actually it is. The GB can be running and as soon as the BG fires the pylons deploy and it'd come to a complete stop. The next action, within 3.5 seconds IF the GB only has two attacks even less if it has more
Use of a boom gun in melee is nothing like a greate sword or polearm in melee(both of wich are melee weapons. A great sword may be 5-6 feet long but all most the whole length of is capable of cutting. yes it is. If you are up against a person with a pole arm or greatsword close the gap. The polearm head can't reach you and the greatsword can't be swung enough to gain momentum. Traditionally the greatswords weren't as sharp as normal swords relying on their weight an narrow edge the essentially act as a mace focusing the strike into a narrow area to cause concussive damage as the heavy plate of the day didn't get cutSome pole arms are not effective at sword range. Niether the pole arm or great sword require the use of stabilizing pylongs.yeah i here the most effective use of the pike was to spin it around wrather than bracing yourself and jamming it again the inside of your boot and those greatsword weilder after they were dismounted used to do acrobatics and even spin two of them around like a blender. For a boom gun to shoot you you need to be infront of its barrel Giving the scale of the boom gun some one fighting with a sword or knife would be in to close to shoot them. With the recoil sysem hopping and shooting is unlikely. No it isn't, they're deployed and retractied in the same action the gun is fired.
People keep saying the sytem does not say you can't shoot in melee but it never says you can. It also does not say you can't shoot something hugging your face with a boom gun. In other words the mecanics neither allow or disallow such actions but require a GM to say when a normal action can not be done. Logically there is no reason to allow a 9 foot tall robot to shoot some one with a gun that goes down to its knees when they are standing right next to it.
how about this one your basing your arguent off of nothing. Nowhere, does it state the length of the boomgun in text. All of the art is non-can

So until some one can find a quote that says you can shoot some one in melee range with a boom gun stop making unsupported statements that the mechanics say you can.
(There are many statements on books about the weakness of a GB is closing in on it supports a weakness. With nothing saying you can shoot the boom gun at targets in mellee range. Heck I do not think the rules say you can't shoot some one buttoned up inside a tank are you going to argue that you can.)

what IS melee range to you? You just stated that a polearm and greatsword are melee weapons a pike is about 12' long a greatsword 6' so the GB can't fire within 12' or does it depend on what weapon the person happens to be using?

[Zer0 Kay]

Is the length of the Boomgun listed in its write up? That would change the assumed minimum range from zero to the end of the barrel.

Otherwise it's a case RAW not matching RAI.

It's not exactly 'written' as having a 0 foot barrel though...

I think the Triax model mentioned some added feet when it's in storage mode pointing up, but it looks to have a shorter barrel than the usual model.

If we look at the front/back Long illustration, the gun is nearly as tall as the PA itself, so 8ft is a pretty good estimate. We could do the exact measurements and convert it to a 10 foot scale but it doesn't seem very important.

That said, it looks like when firing that the rear portion of the boom gun is behind the PA, so I's say the range is more like 5-6 feet from the front of the PA rather than 8.

To answer the original question, the Boom gun is affixed to theglitter boy. You can't 'disarm' him in the traditional sense, because even if you knock it out of his hand, it ain't going anywhere except over his shoulder to it's locking position or.. back to his hand.

You might be able to knock it out for an attack, but he could grab it the next one.

We just blow it up. (The gun)

Even a single attack is really useful though, and if you wanted to capture the armor it might be better to keep disarming the gun while someone else dealt with trying to hack the locking mechanism or remove the helmet or something like that. As much MDC as it has, the gun is arguably the most useful part of the PA, so I wouldn't want to wreck it.

Knocking it out of hand is good enough. If it were a loose floppy ammo belt affixing it as I had originally thought then I think it would take more than one attack to retrieve the gun, but 1 attackseems reasonable considering the impressive above-shoulder hinge you can see from certain angles like the Long/Siembieda work or the Chaos Earth cover.

Once it is out of hand though, if you then entangled or did a hold on the glitter boy's arm then you could possibly stop them from being able to retrieve it. While if you did an entangle while they were still holding the gun I don't think it would necessarily stop them from shooting since entangle traditionally stops swinging/stabbing motions for melee attacks.

Then there's also... if you wrapped your own hands around the handle that could make it hard for the GB's hand to grab it, although if it were normal hands it could probably just crush them into paste, at worst making the grip a littler slippery.

Also it looks like the handle for the boom gun folds up into the stock... if you managed to do that then you could lengthen the time needed to tag it out, right?

Also, could you possibly cast the spell "Seal" on the little door the handle's stored in, preventing it from coming out?

Mechanically the rules support firing the bg in melee.

Mechanically the rules would also support firing a 20 foot tank cannon at someone sitting in the tank pilot's area =/ Rules support GM intervention for obvious snafus.

the gun is noted as being able to handle a much wider range of angles than 0 degrees. we must therefore conclude that there is a mount, and the mount must be capable of withstanding repeated tremendous amounts of force applied to it in a variety of directions. it simply does not make sense that it would be able to function at all without that.

This point is moot since I saw some other pictures which showed a clear hinge (I think probably ball socket due to some narrowing but it's not the clearest angle) but were that not there, I think with a properly versatile shoulder pad and butt that a rifle could be braced against the shoulder from multiple angles.

Use of BG in melee does make sense. Unless the GB is being grappled or entangled why the hell is it going to stand still in melee? The opponent advances into melee range and attacks what is keeping the GB from hopping back six feet and firing six feet is still in melee range. The same can be said for someone using a pole arm or greatsword yet no one argues those can't be used in melee. Kicking ones opponent back before shooting them or holding them out to the side at the end of the left arm and shoot them sideways.

I guess it's more of a consideration if you're fighting the Glitter-Boy with his back to a cliff or minefield, or Carpet of Adhesion. Assuming some amount of motion like a tactical retreat of a short distance to control range with a longer-range weapon does make sense. Although grabbing/kicking wouldn't be covered since those are their own attacks.

With how the rules are written the pylons activate the moment the gun is fired.
This however does not match the fluff of how slow the use of the BG is.

I always envisioned them locking down like a Siege Tank does in StarCraft, would definitely house-rule as a GM that locking in or unlocking the pylons takes a full action.

So what if the GB decides to drop his barrel down and then swipe up at the person and when they back off or by happy chance end up hanging off the end of the barrel just firing? Using the gun as a melee weapon and cannon.

[Zer0 Kay]

Zer0 Kay just made the point I was going to make. Combat mechanics are abstract, just because someone closes to "melee range" doesn't mean both combatants are just standing there an arm's length apart and not moving. If the GB were a tank or some sort of less-mobile vehicle it would be one thing, but the length of the gun on a basically man-sized, highly mobile suit of power armor isn't really a factor in my mind.

Gee even an Abrams can go full speed backwards to bring its cannon to bear

[Zer0 Kay]

I for one would quit arguing if I could, then I'd try to land a kick and just fire the boom gun in any direction just to... Anchor myself. Heck just step on the melee combatants foot and while he is immobile shoot the other foot while using the one your on for an anchor.

[guardiandashi]

to be completely honest one of the most LETHAL attacks a glitterboy might have against an opponent in melee (thinking human even with body armor) might not be the boom gun itself. It might be the pylons.

Here's my thought some stupid person comes running up to melee the glitter boy, said glitter boy punches kicks or otherwise attacks them with a flip or throw type attack intended to knock them down, then deliberately Steps on them before firing the boomgun at someone NOT in melee combat with the glitter boy, the anti sway pylon engages, drills a small hole in their chest (or whatever body part the foot is on, then rams an ~3-6 foot telescoping pole into the ground THROUGH the person the glitterboy is standing on. and if the first attempt doesn't cause a mortal wound reposition slightly and try again.

[Zer0 Kay]

to be completely honest one of the most LETHAL attacks a glitterboy might have against an opponent in melee (thinking human even with body armor) might not be the boom gun itself. It might be the pylons.

Here's my thought some stupid person comes running up to melee the glitter boy, said glitter boy punches kicks or otherwise attacks them with a flip or throw type attack intended to knock them down, then deliberately Steps on them before firing the boomgun at someone NOT in melee combat with the glitter boy, the anti sway pylon engages, drills a small hole in their chest (or whatever body part the foot is on, then rams an ~3-6 foot telescoping pole into the ground THROUGH the person the glitterboy is standing on. and if the first attempt doesn't cause a mortal wound reposition slightly and try again.

I've always thought that since they supposedly, instantly drill 3' into MDC material... But they gave it damage at 1MD IIRC so apparently a 3' deep, what maybe 2" diameter hole is only 1 MD no matter what material OR no matter how deep the pylon gets with 1MD is enough to anchor the GB. Then the funny thought. If there is a six by six play that is two inches think and a 1"x 2" diameter hole is 1MD... When the GB anchors on it and fires does it somehow give enough support or does the plate and the GB go sliding backwards

[Jerell]

If your gun is 10 feet long, you can't shoot someone 2 feet from your shoulder because the gun extends further.

PJ is absolutely right, this makes perfect sense. Sure you can fire in melee, but you still need to have the weapon aimed at your target if you want to hit that target. If you can't point the business end of the gun at the target, you cannot hit that target with ammo following a straight trajectory out of that barrel, end of story.

Besides, as Mumah will tell you, a picture is worth a thousand words.

to be completely honest one of the most LETHAL attacks a glitterboy might have against an opponent in melee (thinking human even with body armor) might not be the boom gun itself. It might be the pylons.

Here's my thought some stupid person comes running up to melee the glitter boy, said glitter boy punches kicks or otherwise attacks them with a flip or throw type attack intended to knock them down, then deliberately Steps on them before firing the boomgun at someone NOT in melee combat with the glitter boy, the anti sway pylon engages, drills a small hole in their chest (or whatever body part the foot is on, then rams an ~3-6 foot telescoping pole into the ground THROUGH the person the glitterboy is standing on. and if the first attempt doesn't cause a mortal wound reposition slightly and try again.

I like it.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Here's my thought some stupid person comes running up to melee the glitter boy,

Getting inside the range at which he can shoot you with his gun is stupid... why?

said glitter boy punches kicks or otherwise attacks them with a flip or throw type attack intended to knock them down,

Which magically doesn't stand any chance to get parried. Oh, wait.. parry bonuses are a lot easier to come across than dodge bonuses.

then deliberately Steps on them before firing the boomgun at someone NOT in melee combat with the glitter boy, the anti sway pylon engages, drills a small hole in their chest (or whatever body part the foot is on, then rams an ~3-6 foot telescoping pole into the ground THROUGH the person the glitterboy is standing on. and if the first attempt doesn't cause a mortal wound reposition slightly and try again.

A call on wether the pylon will go through a person would have to be made by the GM. It inflicts very little actual damage; GM might rule that sure, itll bore through body armor (i wouldnt), but.. good luck getting through Armor of Ithan.

Closing on a GB is just a plain good idea. I mean, yeah, i enter melee range with him and im in "danger" of being punched (for all of what.. 1d6MD? - maybe vibro-bladed on the FQ and NGR models)? Sure seems a lot less dangerous than getting shot for 3d6x10. And while im in range, and out of the line of sight with the barrel, i can be hitting it quite a bit harder with melee attacks, depending on my class/equipment.

Getting into range may be tricky depending on your class/abilities, but not always. Since the very few times ive played lately it's been magic-using classes, sneaking up on a GB isn't remotely an issue. He cant exactly see you sneaking up on him when you're invisible.

[Blue_Lion]

to be completely honest one of the most LETHAL attacks a glitterboy might have against an opponent in melee (thinking human even with body armor) might not be the boom gun itself. It might be the pylons.

Here's my thought some stupid person comes running up to melee the glitter boy, said glitter boy punches kicks or otherwise attacks them with a flip or throw type attack intended to knock them down, then deliberately Steps on them before firing the boomgun at someone NOT in melee combat with the glitter boy, the anti sway pylon engages, drills a small hole in their chest (or whatever body part the foot is on, then rams an ~3-6 foot telescoping pole into the ground THROUGH the person the glitterboy is standing on. and if the first attempt doesn't cause a mortal wound reposition slightly and try again.

I've always thought that since they supposedly, instantly drill 3' into MDC material... But they gave it damage at 1MD IIRC so apparently a 3' deep, what maybe 2" diameter hole is only 1 MD no matter what material OR no matter how deep the pylon gets with 1MD is enough to anchor the GB. Then the funny thought. If there is a six by six play that is two inches think and a 1"x 2" diameter hole is 1MD... When the GB anchors on it and fires does it somehow give enough support or does the plate and the GB go sliding backwards

The pylons are not to drill into MDC material but the ground which is SDC. If they only do 1 MD then they can not drill through most MD surfaces. Most lasers are smaller than 2" inches dimater so it is not 1MD regardless of material.

Here is what I see happing if a GB tried that his recoil comp did not fully deploy like it should as you did not breach the armor and the GB goes flying back the person you stepped on is just fine.

[Blue_Lion]

Zer0 Kay just made the point I was going to make. Combat mechanics are abstract, just because someone closes to "melee range" doesn't mean both combatants are just standing there an arm's length apart and not moving. If the GB were a tank or some sort of less-mobile vehicle it would be one thing, but the length of the gun on a basically man-sized, highly mobile suit of power armor isn't really a factor in my mind.

Gee even an Abrams can go full speed backwards to bring its cannon to bear

The Abrams can fire on the move the GB has to deploy pylons to anchor him to fire his weapon. It might not be bipedal but a tank is more mobile than a GB while firing its main weapons.