Psi-Slinger Conversion

[Fermat]

I’m converting the Rifts Psi-Slinger (from Rifts New West) into something more fitting into the HU realm. I’d like to throw out some of the alterations I'm using. Currently, here’s the changes.

Ability 1: Energy Expulsion is pretty much as written, but ignore the MDC aspect.
Ability 2: Psychic Weapons: Instead of converting Weapons into MDC, it instead affects the normally invulnerable. Obviously this would primarily affect powers like Invulnerable, Immune to High Speed Kinetic Attacks, and Zombie Flesh. However, I am also considering allowing them to affect ones with things like Intangible and APS: Liquid
Ability 3: Energy Conversion: to make this effective in an SDC world, I am considering a few options. The top 2 are half damage from energy attacks and immunity to high speed attacks.

The rest is pretty much easily accepted or ignored. Any suggestions or comments?

[SittingBull]

That's about what I did for my player except I increased the amount of ammunition reloaded per ISP spent (since the psi-slinger concept was revolvers and when one comes modern day, the automatics always come out to play).

[Razorwing]

I would be careful about letting anyone harm invulnerable characters... part of the reason these powers are... powerful... is because they are very difficult to harm. Besides that, while such characters are vulnerable to magic and psionics that affect the MIND... magic and psionics that create physical energies do NO damage at all.

Fireball and Call Lightning spells do not hurt Invulnerable characters any more than fire or electricity does. The same is true with the energy of a Psi-Sword or a telekinetic bolt. These powers create a physical energy that affects the body... not the mind. The Psi-slinger's telekinetic ammo is no different... it is a physical force that shouldn't harm such characters any more than a regular bullet.

To be honest... Psi-Slingers need no more conversion to an SDC setting than reducing their damage from MD to SDC. Heroes Unlimited isn't Rifts... the levels of PPE which enhances their psionics to MDC levels just isn't present... which means that on HU Earth their abilities (while still impressive) will be a fair bit weaker. There is no reason to boost their abilities to compensate for this loss... simply because this loss is a result of their environment (changing worlds usually doesn't give people new abilities they didn't have before, but can enhance or reduce what they had). Just as a HU Psychic will get a power boost by going to Rifts Earth (their psionics now doing MDC), a Rifts Psychic coming to HU Earth will see their abilities reduced to HU levels. It is the same with Magical characters as well.

If invulnerable type characters are so common or that much of a problem that players need an extra means of dealing with them (other than exploiting their usual vulnerabilities), then you have a bigger problem than merely converting a Psi-Slinger to an SDC setting... especially if you are giving them a power specifically to handle these powers (a power they normally don't have... even in a more powerful setting like Rifts).

[ShadowLogan]

#1 Energy Expulsion: use Mind Bolt as a template and just drop the MD attack unless they are in an MDC environment (like Mind Bolt)

#2 Psychic Weapons: best handled by treating it as a simple damage modifier and leave it as that. That is what the ability is intended as, not a work around. Though beings vulnerable to psychic energy attacks (like Psi-Sword) should take damage if they are invulnerable to normal bullets now since the rounds are charged with psychic energy. If you go with the straight forward 1:1 conversion of damage, there is no reason to use the power, so I would just allow the bullet to do extra damage (either the listed MDC die roll at 1:1 or a simple modifier like x2).

#3 Energy Conversion: Leave as is, they already consider SDC attacks and the MD attack level doesn't need to be considered IMHO since that level of energy isn't present in HU, but would manifest itself in an MDC universe as listed.

[SittingBull]

I would be careful about letting anyone harm invulnerable characters... part of the reason these powers are... powerful... is because they are very difficult to harm. Besides that, while such characters are vulnerable to magic and psionics that affect the MIND... magic and psionics that create physical energies do NO damage at all.

Fireball and Call Lightning spells do not hurt Invulnerable characters any more than fire or electricity does. The same is true with the energy of a Psi-Sword or a telekinetic bolt. These powers create a physical energy that affects the body... not the mind. The Psi-slinger's telekinetic ammo is no different... it is a physical force that shouldn't harm such characters any more than a regular bullet.

To be honest... Psi-Slingers need no more conversion to an SDC setting than reducing their damage from MD to SDC. Heroes Unlimited isn't Rifts... the levels of PPE which enhances their psionics to MDC levels just isn't present... which means that on HU Earth their abilities (while still impressive) will be a fair bit weaker. There is no reason to boost their abilities to compensate for this loss... simply because this loss is a result of their environment (changing worlds usually doesn't give people new abilities they didn't have before, but can enhance or reduce what they had). Just as a HU Psychic will get a power boost by going to Rifts Earth (their psionics now doing MDC), a Rifts Psychic coming to HU Earth will see their abilities reduced to HU levels. It is the same with Magical characters as well.

If invulnerable type characters are so common or that much of a problem that players need an extra means of dealing with them (other than exploiting their usual vulnerabilities), then you have a bigger problem than merely converting a Psi-Slinger to an SDC setting... especially if you are giving them a power specifically to handle these powers (a power they normally don't have... even in a more powerful setting like Rifts).

Harm an Invulnerable, I wouldn't but I did let their rounds hurt silver-weak creatures like they were silver rounds.

[Razorwing]

Unfortunately, if you read up on the description of the Silver Vulnerability creatures like Were-Beasts and Vampires have, you would see that psionics can control or hold them... but they can not harm them (psi-sword, telekinetic bolt and such do no damage). This means that the psychic shot of the Psi-Slinger should do no damage to such creatures... unless otherwise noted in their description.

To put it bluntly, beings with these kinds of invulnerability are hard to deal with. They are also usually fairly rare. Easy access to abilities that circumvent these defenses both reduces the value of having such abilities (and the threat such creatures can pose) and means that players don't have to think about other means to deal with them. Most players tend to either punch or shoot opponents into submission... until they come up against something that can't be taken down that way because of an invulnerability. This leads to Outside-the-Box thinking that can make an adventure far more memorable than just bypassing the invulnerability.

Needless to say... Psi-Slingers will have other means at their disposal to deal with such characters (though the effectiveness may vary depending on what other psychic abilities are chosen). They don't need any special means of overcoming these defenses... no more than other characters often get at any rate.

[SittingBull]

Well, I did forget to mention this character has been affected by outside powers, as a reward. Anyway. Moving on.

[eliakon]

My thought was that #2 would be either a straight +1d6 of telekinetic damage or since this was sort of the 'focus' of the class maybe something like "the bullet gains a damage bonus. This is equal to the normal PS bonus only substituting ME for PS" (or....just because these classes have 'evil charisma' and reputations and stuff....substituting MA for PS.)

For energy resistance I would offer half damage to energy attacks that do less than 30 points of damage (Before reduction) and immunity to energy based stunners (this is so that they still do the 'armor, I don't need no stinking armor' thing). I would make sure though to note that this protects only them and their linked weapon and nothing else.

[SittingBull]

Interesting idea, eli, on #2.

[Fermat]

My thought was that #2 would be either a straight +1d6 of telekinetic damage or since this was sort of the 'focus' of the class maybe something like "the bullet gains a damage bonus. This is equal to the normal PS bonus only substituting ME for PS" (or....just because these classes have 'evil charisma' and reputations and stuff....substituting MA for PS.)

For energy resistance I would offer half damage to energy attacks that do less than 30 points of damage (Before reduction) and immunity to energy based stunners (this is so that they still do the 'armor, I don't need no stinking armor' thing). I would make sure though to note that this protects only them and their linked weapon and nothing else.

I like your #2, I will play with the numbers whether a ME bonus or a straight 1d6 is a better option.

For energy resistance, rather than limiting it in your way what if instead I handled it more like Impact resistance: they get to ignore the first ?30? points of energy/high speed kinetic damage each melee. That keeps their devil-may-care style without making them a juggernaut.

[eliakon]

My thought was that #2 would be either a straight +1d6 of telekinetic damage or since this was sort of the 'focus' of the class maybe something like "the bullet gains a damage bonus. This is equal to the normal PS bonus only substituting ME for PS" (or....just because these classes have 'evil charisma' and reputations and stuff....substituting MA for PS.)

For energy resistance I would offer half damage to energy attacks that do less than 30 points of damage (Before reduction) and immunity to energy based stunners (this is so that they still do the 'armor, I don't need no stinking armor' thing). I would make sure though to note that this protects only them and their linked weapon and nothing else.

I like your #2, I will play with the numbers whether a ME bonus or a straight 1d6 is a better option.

For energy resistance, rather than limiting it in your way what if instead I handled it more like Impact resistance: they get to ignore the first ?30? points of energy/high speed kinetic damage each melee. That keeps their devil-may-care style without making them a juggernaut.

The problem I see there is that it is basically giving them 2 minor super powers...
And it does make them pretty tough. They can now, for example shrug off 5d6 rifle rounds with out blinking and have a good chance of ignoring a burst from a sub-machine guns or even a hit from a particle beam rifle.
In rifts you either have to have armor or you die. In HU its not quite as important since the amount of damage that weapons/powers do tends to be lower (and with out MD there is no 'insta-kill' effect). This means that damage slides become proportionately a lot more powerful than they are in Rifts.

[Fermat]

I would be careful about letting anyone harm invulnerable characters... part of the reason these powers are... powerful... is because they are very difficult to harm. Besides that, while such characters are vulnerable to magic and psionics that affect the MIND... magic and psionics that create physical energies do NO damage at all.

Fireball and Call Lightning spells do not hurt Invulnerable characters any more than fire or electricity does. The same is true with the energy of a Psi-Sword or a telekinetic bolt. These powers create a physical energy that affects the body... not the mind. The Psi-slinger's telekinetic ammo is no different... it is a physical force that shouldn't harm such characters any more than a regular bullet.

To be honest... Psi-Slingers need no more conversion to an SDC setting than reducing their damage from MD to SDC. Heroes Unlimited isn't Rifts... the levels of PPE which enhances their psionics to MDC levels just isn't present... which means that on HU Earth their abilities (while still impressive) will be a fair bit weaker. There is no reason to boost their abilities to compensate for this loss... simply because this loss is a result of their environment (changing worlds usually doesn't give people new abilities they didn't have before, but can enhance or reduce what they had). Just as a HU Psychic will get a power boost by going to Rifts Earth (their psionics now doing MDC), a Rifts Psychic coming to HU Earth will see their abilities reduced to HU levels. It is the same with Magical characters as well.

If invulnerable type characters are so common or that much of a problem that players need an extra means of dealing with them (other than exploiting their usual vulnerabilities), then you have a bigger problem than merely converting a Psi-Slinger to an SDC setting... especially if you are giving them a power specifically to handle these powers (a power they normally don't have... even in a more powerful setting like Rifts).

They aren't that common. I do these kind of conversions (usually using an NPC) to playtest different builds before a player requests it. I like their 'feel', and since one of their signature abilities is that SDC to MDC conversion, it seemed logical to have them affect the normally invulnerable. Ironically, if there aren't too many invulnerable beings around this power, while interesting, would be less impressive.

[ShadowLogan]

My thought was that #2 would be either a straight +1d6 of telekinetic damage or since this was sort of the 'focus' of the class maybe something like "the bullet gains a damage bonus. This is equal to the normal PS bonus only substituting ME for PS" (or....just because these classes have 'evil charisma' and reputations and stuff....substituting MA for PS.)

For energy resistance I would offer half damage to energy attacks that do less than 30 points of damage (Before reduction) and immunity to energy based stunners (this is so that they still do the 'armor, I don't need no stinking armor' thing). I would make sure though to note that this protects only them and their linked weapon and nothing else.

I like your #2, I will play with the numbers whether a ME bonus or a straight 1d6 is a better option.

For energy resistance, rather than limiting it in your way what if instead I handled it more like Impact resistance: they get to ignore the first ?30? points of energy/high speed kinetic damage each melee. That keeps their devil-may-care style without making them a juggernaut.

The problem I see there is that it is basically giving them 2 minor super powers...
And it does make them pretty tough. They can now, for example shrug off 5d6 rifle rounds with out blinking and have a good chance of ignoring a burst from a sub-machine guns or even a hit from a particle beam rifle.
In rifts you either have to have armor or you die. In HU its not quite as important since the amount of damage that weapons/powers do tends to be lower (and with out MD there is no 'insta-kill' effect). This means that damage slides become proportionately a lot more powerful than they are in Rifts.

Well technically they already get something akin to 3 minor super powers as it is if we are porting it in.

Their #2 ability is tougher to import since in Rifts it is a replacement damage, which would make no sense to use in HU. So it does need some slight tweaking, likely in the manner we both suggest.

Their #3 ability, which is energy resistance, doesn't need to be modified at all. The description provides provisions for SDC attacks already. Like their #1 ability, I would just treat the MD aspect as not applying to HU. If the OP is looking to modify this in anyway, I would suggest a known power substitution with a similar feel, but I don't see a need for it given the ability as described should work just fine in SDC environments without any need for tweaking.

[Daniel Stoker]

I would be careful about letting anyone harm invulnerable characters... part of the reason these powers are... powerful... is because they are very difficult to harm. Besides that, while such characters are vulnerable to magic and psionics that affect the MIND... magic and psionics that create physical energies do NO damage at all.

It it's a psionic power I'd have trouble saying that it shouldn't effect the invulnerable person. Bio-manipulation says that “The psychic is able to induce physical trauma to the nervous system of others by sheer force of will and psychic energy.” (bolding mine) which sounds like using psionic energy creating 'physical energy'. So we could argue that neither works on the invulnerable character but unlike magic psionics doesn’t have any qualifiers in what can effect them, “The character is only, truly, vulnerable to psionics, spell magic, magic illusions and magic weapons, all of which have full effect. However energy type magic, like fireballs does no damage.” Which makes me think it really should work for both.


Daniel Stoker

[Prodigy]

I would be careful about letting anyone harm invulnerable characters... part of the reason these powers are... powerful... is because they are very difficult to harm. Besides that, while such characters are vulnerable to magic and psionics that affect the MIND... magic and psionics that create physical energies do NO damage at all.

It it's a psionic power I'd have trouble saying that it shouldn't effect the invulnerable person. Bio-manipulation says that “The psychic is able to induce physical trauma to the nervous system of others by sheer force of will and psychic energy.” (bolding mine) which sounds like using psionic energy creating 'physical energy'. So we could argue that neither works on the invulnerable character but unlike magic psionics doesn’t have any qualifiers in what can effect them, “The character is only, truly, vulnerable to psionics, spell magic, magic illusions and magic weapons, all of which have full effect. However energy type magic, like fireballs does no damage.” Which makes me think it really should work for both.


Daniel Stoker

I have to agree with you Daniel, about Psi-Sword damaging Invulnerable characters. Especially when the description in under Psi-Sword states the it affects "those impervious to normal weapons". I don't necessarily get where the concept of the Psi-Sword not affecting the Invulnerable comes from as that concept directly contradicts the book.

The only question is as to whether or not the Psi-Slinger uses the same effect that the Psi-Sword has. I would say yes, it does, so it would affect an HU Invulnerable character.

[The Baron of chaos]

just curious, since i'm slowly creeping back to palladium, but had it been canonized that Psi-Sword do not damage anymore to vampires? i remeber they used to do damage to vampires...but my memory is fuzzy about that

[Razorwing]

So... by your reasoning... the Fires created by Pyrokinesis and the Electricity created with Electrokinesis will harm an Invulnerable character because they are created with psionics rather than magic, technology or naturally (through mutant-type powers), yes?

The argument you are giving... "the rules don't state that it does no damage, therefore it does damage," is not a good basis for an argument... especially when it can be twisted like I did above. We know that an Invulnerable character is immune to fire regardless of source... even though Invulnerability doesn't actually state that psychically created fire does no damage. The same is true with Electricity... it does no damage whether created naturally, through powers, technology, magic or psionics.

Invulnerability may be a very powerful power, but it isn't perfect. There are methods to affect them. The most potent vulnerability is the mind... and Psychics can affect the mind directly very easily. There are many psychic powers that can easily affect an Invulnerabile character without having to harm him physically. Even Bio-Manipulation Pain (the only one that actually does damage) can still affect such a character... even though it won't do actual damage. A Psi-Sword may be created with mental energy... but it does physical damage (can damage objects as well as people). Now... if it only affected living things (no damage to objects and bypasses armor), then I could agree that it would damage an Invulnerable character.

Now... if you want to say that Psi-Sword harms Invulnerable characters because Invulnerability doesn't say it doesn't... I can counter with the fact that Psi-Sword doesn't actually say it harms Invulnerable Characters... just characters immune to normal weapons (like vampires and were-beasts). See how your argument works against you as well?

[Daniel Stoker]

I'm freely admit less sure about pyro and electrokinesis, but unlike Magic which has a specific qualifier "energy type magic, like fireballs does no damage" there is no such one for Psionics "The character is only, truly, vulnerable to psionics, spell magic, magic illusions and magic weapons, all of which have full effect." That is a whole lot different then saying "the rules don't state that it does no damage, therefore it does damage".

If bio-manipulation which uses psychic energy to do damage, "The psychic is able to induce physical trauma to the nervous system of others by sheer force of will and psychic energy." why wouldn't a sword made of psychic energy do damage?


Daniel Stoker

[The Baron of chaos]

this thread had become very..."classic". In the sense tha ti get the feeling that this had already been discussed. Albeit probably more about the line "what could hurt an invulnerable guy apart SN PS or Magic Weapons and no we are not talking about mind control we are talking abot damage" sort of thread. You know the one.

Of course the whole invulnerability is always source of such discussion.

As for Psi-Slinger its second aspect of the power is simply reloading the gun wiht psionic power. essentially he has powerfull mind bolts at a really cheap price. Really is enough good as its compared how much psionics in palladium suck when come to energy spent/effect obtained ratio( consume too much energy for really lousy effects...mostly...)
Invulnerability....ehhhhh don't know. I won't touch that with a ten foot pole. It will only lend to circular pointless disucssion that end in nothing("GM master has the last world" "rules are optional" "in my campaign i do so and so")
Vampire do not make text in this case(albeit had been many many many discussion about any possible variant of killign vampire and any extension of the concept of ritual beheading since the first blade movie! Up and including...throwing them in the sun and nukes...lot of nukes....) since their vulenrability to psi-swords is more tied to their supernatural reanimated dead nature(the psionic constructs probably damage whatever keep the bloodsucker alive).

[flatline]

I would be careful about letting anyone harm invulnerable characters... part of the reason these powers are... powerful... is because they are very difficult to harm. Besides that, while such characters are vulnerable to magic and psionics that affect the MIND... magic and psionics that create physical energies do NO damage at all.

Fireball and Call Lightning spells do not hurt Invulnerable characters any more than fire or electricity does. The same is true with the energy of a Psi-Sword or a telekinetic bolt. These powers create a physical energy that affects the body... not the mind. The Psi-slinger's telekinetic ammo is no different... it is a physical force that shouldn't harm such characters any more than a regular bullet.

I'm not certain that the canon interpretation is known in regards to this. We have lots of examples of things, for instance, being totally immune to fire, yet the description specifically notes that magic fire still harms them. It's not clear if Invulnerability is one of these situations.

I'm cool with however you rule in your game, but just be aware that your interpretation is not universally held.

--flatline

[The Baron of chaos]

I would be careful about letting anyone harm invulnerable characters... part of the reason these powers are... powerful... is because they are very difficult to harm. Besides that, while such characters are vulnerable to magic and psionics that affect the MIND... magic and psionics that create physical energies do NO damage at all.

Fireball and Call Lightning spells do not hurt Invulnerable characters any more than fire or electricity does. The same is true with the energy of a Psi-Sword or a telekinetic bolt. These powers create a physical energy that affects the body... not the mind. The Psi-slinger's telekinetic ammo is no different... it is a physical force that shouldn't harm such characters any more than a regular bullet.

I'm not certain that the canon interpretation is known in regards to this. We have lots of examples of things, for instance, being totally immune to fire, yet the description specifically notes that magic fire still harms them. It's not clear if Invulnerability is one of these situations.

I'm cool with however you rule in your game, but just be aware that your interpretation is not universally held.

--flatline

Yes it is kind of the problem when there is lack of straight canon/word of god answer. The best a GM could do is extrapolate from multiple lines(like the conversion notes at the end of N&S that said clearly to what martial power invulnerable character are vulnerable to and to what extent. Chi hurt. So anything akin to chi should work as well. Now there is Rifts Chine and that is a whole lot different beast at whole. Yes Chi and ISP are interchangeable there. But seem strongly implied(by the fact that the Rift China character power are weakere outside Rifts China) that is somethign related to the odd nature of Rifts China than any universal rule..And so more and more...) GM...is tough cerebral job