HTH assassin (focusing in MD settings)

[SittingBull]

Is it just me and the GMs I run have run under, or do assassins (and a lesser degree commando) get the short end of the stick when it comes to critical hits and knockouts/stuns? The GMs I have always been played under always limited the effects from knockouts and stuns to non-mdc combat. Was this a mistake on their part? Is there something I am missing? Yes, I realize hth commando gets auto-dodge, so still commando doesn't crit till lvl 15. When did HTH assassin LOSE death blow, even though (again) this ability has been overlooked by most of my gms in the past, in MD settings.

[Bill]

The combat skills are legacy items from previous iterations of the rules, where combatants that are immune to knockout, stun, critical strikes, and death attacks are rare. Even with those being ruled out of most situations, HtH:Assassin still has a lot of benefits. It grants paired weapons immediately, over the full 15 level progression it gains an attack action more than other combat skills, +4 more to strike, and it's the only HtH skill that grants bonuses to strike with a firearm.

[eliakon]

H2H Assassin has had the same death blow it has had for a long time. Unless we go back to N&SS and PF1st edition days....
Even RMB has the same progression as it does now (well less actually but everything RMB has RUE has).

Deathblow has slowly been being phased out of general use I believe simply because it is incredibly powerful. Especially Death Blow! which doesn't require a specific natural roll. While knock out attack would probably be useful in my experience virtually every assassin takes Boxing anyway so to be honest they would rather get the ultra-rare bonus to strike with guns than a duplicate knock out.

[SittingBull]

The combat skills are legacy items from previous iterations of the rules, where combatants that are immune to knockout, stun, critical strikes, and death attacks are rare. Even with those being ruled out of most situations, HtH:Assassin still has a lot of benefits. It grants paired weapons immediately, over the full 15 level progression it gains an attack action more than other combat skills, +4 more to strike, and it's the only HtH skill that grants bonuses to strike with a firearm.

Bonus to strike with a firearm?

[Bill]

Yup. Level 11 and 15.

[SittingBull]

Yup. Level 11 and 15.

Very true but by that point an additional +1 will rarely make a difference; good to know though.

[Alrik Vas]

Doesn't Assassin also get a damage bonus with firearms?

In regards to knock out and stun, a mega-damage attack should be sufficient cause to KO or Stun an MDC being, and there are a lot of ways even an SDC combatant without supernatural strength can cause this.

Same with Deathblow, though according to the rules all it does vs MDC beings is cut off their regeneration for a time.

[SittingBull]

HTH doesnt get death blow now but commando does...

[Axelmania]

What HTH? Assassin gets it at 12, martial arts and expert at 15.

Commando getting it 3 levels earlier and 1 die lower than Assassin does seem wrong though.

Basic/Expert's automatic knockout/crit from behind at 13 is still better than everything though since it doesn't gamble on natural die rolls.

[ShadowLogan]

Doesn't Assassin also get a damage bonus with firearms?

In regards to knock out and stun, a mega-damage attack should be sufficient cause to KO or Stun an MDC being, and there are a lot of ways even an SDC combatant without supernatural strength can cause this.

Same with Deathblow, though according to the rules all it does vs MDC beings is cut off their regeneration for a time.

I recall a damage bonus with firearms somewhere from HTH, but I can't seem to find it or any easy reference to it (it is not RUE or RMB version of Assassin though, unless it's a "printing version" thing). However, one also has to remember that even the generic 5 forms (Basic, Expert, Martial Arts, Assassin, and even None) have all changed over the years and between megaversal lines.

I disagree that a regular PS should be able to KO/Stun/DeathBlow an MDC being w/o some form of assist (tool, other training/skill specific to the task, etc) in terms of punch/kick (holds, flips, etc is another matter) since I picture MDC being more dense than SDC materials making it the equivalent of hitting reinforced concrete instead of drywall.

[SittingBull]

What HTH? Assassin gets it at 12, martial arts and expert at 15.

Commando getting it 3 levels earlier and 1 die lower than Assassin does seem wrong though.

Basic/Expert's automatic knockout/crit from behind at 13 is still better than everything though since it doesn't gamble on natural die rolls.

Your right, I had missed it but in an md vs md setting (should one be high enough) it's still moot.

[eliakon]

What HTH? Assassin gets it at 12, martial arts and expert at 15.

Commando getting it 3 levels earlier and 1 die lower than Assassin does seem wrong though.

Basic/Expert's automatic knockout/crit from behind at 13 is still better than everything though since it doesn't gamble on natural die rolls.

Your right, I had missed it but in an md vs md setting (should one be high enough) it's still moot.

Why? Unless your introducing a house rule that MDC creatures are immune to knockout I am not aware of one that says that they can't still be knocked out. And critical is critical is critical. That 'automatic critical from behind' is NASTY. That means all rear attacks are automatically x2 damage, I would say that "does double damage" is a pretty good definition of the opposite of moot.

[SittingBull]

What HTH? Assassin gets it at 12, martial arts and expert at 15.

Commando getting it 3 levels earlier and 1 die lower than Assassin does seem wrong though.

Basic/Expert's automatic knockout/crit from behind at 13 is still better than everything though since it doesn't gamble on natural die rolls.

Your right, I had missed it but in an md vs md setting (should one be high enough) it's still moot.

Why? Unless your introducing a house rule that MDC creatures are immune to knockout I am not aware of one that says that they can't still be knocked out. And critical is critical is critical. That 'automatic critical from behind' is NASTY. That means all rear attacks are automatically x2 damage, I would say that "does double damage" is a pretty good definition of the opposite of moot.

99% of GMs I have played with in real life have never let players be able to sneak attack opponents. That and most Rift games rarely go past level 2 or 3 anyway.

[eliakon]

What HTH? Assassin gets it at 12, martial arts and expert at 15.

Commando getting it 3 levels earlier and 1 die lower than Assassin does seem wrong though.

Basic/Expert's automatic knockout/crit from behind at 13 is still better than everything though since it doesn't gamble on natural die rolls.

Your right, I had missed it but in an md vs md setting (should one be high enough) it's still moot.

Why? Unless your introducing a house rule that MDC creatures are immune to knockout I am not aware of one that says that they can't still be knocked out. And critical is critical is critical. That 'automatic critical from behind' is NASTY. That means all rear attacks are automatically x2 damage, I would say that "does double damage" is a pretty good definition of the opposite of moot.

99% of GMs I have played with in real life have never let players be able to sneak attack opponents.

Sneak attack isn't the same as behind though...
If you tag team an attacker for instance one of you is behind him.....double damage time.....

That and most Rift games rarely go past level 2 or 3 anyway.

Yeah well level capping can be an issue, but as was said if you get to the level to use it.....

[Dog_O_War]

Is it just me and the GMs I run have run under, or do assassins (and a lesser degree commando) get the short end of the stick when it comes to critical hits and knockouts/stuns? The GMs I have always been played under always limited the effects from knockouts and stuns to non-mdc combat. Was this a mistake on their part? Is there something I am missing? Yes, I realize hth commando gets auto-dodge, so still commando doesn't crit till lvl 15. When did HTH assassin LOSE death blow, even though (again) this ability has been overlooked by most of my gms in the past, in MD settings.

Short end as compared to what? If you tally up the bonuses and what-not, people who purchased HtH:Expert got the short end of the stick.

As for criticals and K.O.s, well, they're actually doing you a favour. Assume you're in a party of 4 people, each with 6 attacks per round and the ability to K.O. on a 20; you're likely going to fight 100 times your number worth of opponents over the course of your career; let's assume that 10% of them have the same physical combat abilities as your group.

All-in-all, you're receiving 10 times the number of K.O.s you're delivering; now think back to all the games you've played - do you honestly believe you'd survive even half the encounters you've fought if 1 or 2 members of your team got knocked out every combat? The answer is 'no'. The reasoning however, is that they do not want you magically knocking out their villains all the time. What they just do not realize however is that this "no K.O.s except in SDC combat" works highly in your favour in terms of survival.

And that's limiting the number of criticals and knock-outs to just 5% of the d20 roll. Expanding this number only increases your own chance of doom as a player, especially given that you're more likely to run into skilled higher-level enemies and NPCs than you encounter unskilled/lower-level NPCs in the first 5 levels of the game.

[SittingBull]

What HTH? Assassin gets it at 12, martial arts and expert at 15.

Commando getting it 3 levels earlier and 1 die lower than Assassin does seem wrong though.

Basic/Expert's automatic knockout/crit from behind at 13 is still better than everything though since it doesn't gamble on natural die rolls.

Your right, I had missed it but in an md vs md setting (should one be high enough) it's still moot.

Why? Unless your introducing a house rule that MDC creatures are immune to knockout I am not aware of one that says that they can't still be knocked out. And critical is critical is critical. That 'automatic critical from behind' is NASTY. That means all rear attacks are automatically x2 damage, I would say that "does double damage" is a pretty good definition of the opposite of moot.

99% of GMs I have played with in real life have never let players be able to sneak attack opponents.

Sneak attack isn't the same as behind though...
If you tag team an attacker for instance one of you is behind him.....double damage time.....

That and most Rift games rarely go past level 2 or 3 anyway.

Yeah well level capping can be an issue, but as was said if you get to the level to use it.....

Yeah teamwork also was NEVER big either with players in SE VA. It was more like a group of soloist.

[SittingBull]

Is it just me and the GMs I run have run under, or do assassins (and a lesser degree commando) get the short end of the stick when it comes to critical hits and knockouts/stuns? The GMs I have always been played under always limited the effects from knockouts and stuns to non-mdc combat. Was this a mistake on their part? Is there something I am missing? Yes, I realize hth commando gets auto-dodge, so still commando doesn't crit till lvl 15. When did HTH assassin LOSE death blow, even though (again) this ability has been overlooked by most of my gms in the past, in MD settings.

Short end as compared to what? If you tally up the bonuses and what-not, people who purchased HtH:Expert got the short end of the stick.

As for criticals and K.O.s, well, they're actually doing you a favour. Assume you're in a party of 4 people, each with 6 attacks per round and the ability to K.O. on a 20; you're likely going to fight 100 times your number worth of opponents over the course of your career; let's assume that 10% of them have the same physical combat abilities as your group.

All-in-all, you're receiving 10 times the number of K.O.s you're delivering; now think back to all the games you've played - do you honestly believe you'd survive even half the encounters you've fought if 1 or 2 members of your team got knocked out every combat? The answer is 'no'. The reasoning however, is that they do not want you magically knocking out their villains all the time. What they just do not realize however is that this "no K.O.s except in SDC combat" works highly in your favour in terms of survival.

And that's limiting the number of criticals and knock-outs to just 5% of the d20 roll. Expanding this number only increases your own chance of doom as a player, especially given that you're more likely to run into skilled higher-level enemies and NPCs than you encounter unskilled/lower-level NPCs in the first 5 levels of the game.

GOOD! Maybe then players wouldn't be so gung ho for combat.

[slade the sniper]

Is it just me and the GMs I run have run under, or do assassins (and a lesser degree commando) get the short end of the stick when it comes to critical hits and knockouts/stuns? The GMs I have always been played under always limited the effects from knockouts and stuns to non-mdc combat. Was this a mistake on their part? Is there something I am missing? Yes, I realize hth commando gets auto-dodge, so still commando doesn't crit till lvl 15. When did HTH assassin LOSE death blow, even though (again) this ability has been overlooked by most of my gms in the past, in MD settings.

Short end as compared to what? If you tally up the bonuses and what-not, people who purchased HtH:Expert got the short end of the stick.

As for criticals and K.O.s, well, they're actually doing you a favour. Assume you're in a party of 4 people, each with 6 attacks per round and the ability to K.O. on a 20; you're likely going to fight 100 times your number worth of opponents over the course of your career; let's assume that 10% of them have the same physical combat abilities as your group.

All-in-all, you're receiving 10 times the number of K.O.s you're delivering; now think back to all the games you've played - do you honestly believe you'd survive even half the encounters you've fought if 1 or 2 members of your team got knocked out every combat? The answer is 'no'. The reasoning however, is that they do not want you magically knocking out their villains all the time. What they just do not realize however is that this "no K.O.s except in SDC combat" works highly in your favour in terms of survival.

And that's limiting the number of criticals and knock-outs to just 5% of the d20 roll. Expanding this number only increases your own chance of doom as a player, especially given that you're more likely to run into skilled higher-level enemies and NPCs than you encounter unskilled/lower-level NPCs in the first 5 levels of the game.

GOOD! Maybe then players wouldn't be so gung ho for combat.

I agree with that. The lethality of RIFTS seems to be sort of ignored lately. The prevalence of military grade weaponry and actual demons should not be glossed over...

-STS

[eliakon]

Is it just me and the GMs I run have run under, or do assassins (and a lesser degree commando) get the short end of the stick when it comes to critical hits and knockouts/stuns? The GMs I have always been played under always limited the effects from knockouts and stuns to non-mdc combat. Was this a mistake on their part? Is there something I am missing? Yes, I realize hth commando gets auto-dodge, so still commando doesn't crit till lvl 15. When did HTH assassin LOSE death blow, even though (again) this ability has been overlooked by most of my gms in the past, in MD settings.

Short end as compared to what? If you tally up the bonuses and what-not, people who purchased HtH:Expert got the short end of the stick.

As for criticals and K.O.s, well, they're actually doing you a favour. Assume you're in a party of 4 people, each with 6 attacks per round and the ability to K.O. on a 20; you're likely going to fight 100 times your number worth of opponents over the course of your career; let's assume that 10% of them have the same physical combat abilities as your group.

All-in-all, you're receiving 10 times the number of K.O.s you're delivering; now think back to all the games you've played - do you honestly believe you'd survive even half the encounters you've fought if 1 or 2 members of your team got knocked out every combat? The answer is 'no'. The reasoning however, is that they do not want you magically knocking out their villains all the time. What they just do not realize however is that this "no K.O.s except in SDC combat" works highly in your favour in terms of survival.

And that's limiting the number of criticals and knock-outs to just 5% of the d20 roll. Expanding this number only increases your own chance of doom as a player, especially given that you're more likely to run into skilled higher-level enemies and NPCs than you encounter unskilled/lower-level NPCs in the first 5 levels of the game.

GOOD! Maybe then players wouldn't be so gung ho for combat.

I agree with that. The lethality of RIFTS seems to be sort of ignored lately. The prevalence of military grade weaponry and actual demons should not be glossed over...

-STS

As a GM I find that the reason is that players get upset if the bad guys get to make a single attack roll and say "sorry your knocked out/dead/what ever". This leads to me often having to soften combat and 'forget to use' all the abilities of the enemies since its rather less than fun to be fighting and watch a couple of decent rolls declare that your all knocked out.....
What I find most amusing is that almost every time I mention this the group protests that no, no they are mature role-players. They can handle it and don't need me to use kid gloves, bringing on. And then a fight or three later its either 'Man he's a killer GM" or "Can we go back to the old way."

[Alrik Vas]

On that note specifically, elialon, why do you bother? There are some enemies who have no real tactical prowess, so they would attack without any real objective other than doing damage, but many opponents have training that tells them the best way to win a fight.

If you're sandbagging encounters it seems like these players will never learn anything. People who complain about "killer GMs", while sometimes correct, are generally in need of a little maturity.

[Dog_O_War]

GOOD! Maybe then players wouldn't be so gung ho for combat.

What kind of player-pool are you pulling from where PCs feel gung ho over a 5% chance to K.O. a target?!

Besides this, those numbers I gave you; pretty much 98% (heh) of the community who play Rifts are utterly unaware of the odds against them. Even more so, the odds are that your typical opponent will not have a K.O. attack, and still more so, your players do not have scouters to tell them what level and HtH each opponent has.

That is; the gung ho attitude has nothing to do with that 5% K.O. and everything to do with "I can do 3d6x10 per attack with my boomgun!"

[Dog_O_War]

On that note specifically, elialon, why do you bother? There are some enemies who have no real tactical prowess, so they would attack without any real objective other than doing damage, but many opponents have training that tells them the best way to win a fight.

If you're sandbagging encounters it seems like these players will never learn anything. People who complain about "killer GMs", while sometimes correct, are generally in need of a little maturity.

I've learned from my time playing table-top miniature games that typically a person will never actually learn from their mistakes and instead will constantly make the same ones.

At best, you can have these typical people copy a strategy that works, but you cannot expect them to have any level of real adaptation. This is true of any age group. If anything, it's kids that adapt the best.

[Alrik Vas]

Ignore tactical adaptability for a moment and just focus on the maturity level of people who go, "we're not kids, we can take it!" Then pitch a @&$=# when their characters die or are even simply defeated.

That's more or less what I was talking about.

[SittingBull]

GOOD! Maybe then players wouldn't be so gung ho for combat.

What kind of player-pool are you pulling from where PCs feel gung ho over a 5% chance to K.O. a target?!

Besides this, those numbers I gave you; pretty much 98% (heh) of the community who play Rifts are utterly unaware of the odds against them. Even more so, the odds are that your typical opponent will not have a K.O. attack, and still more so, your players do not have scouters to tell them what level and HtH each opponent has.

That is; the gung ho attitude has nothing to do with that 5% K.O. and everything to do with "I can do 3d6x10 per attack with my boomgun!"

Ah, the boomgun/glitterboy, that can impair so many of the rest of the group and signal the group's location to any un-involved monsters/enemies. "Look aerial recon, lets hide." Uttered someone in the group with the giant armored mirror.

[SittingBull]

The player pool, who I used to tabletop with, were mostly teenagers and very immature/gungho.

[eliakon]

On that note specifically, elialon, why do you bother? There are some enemies who have no real tactical prowess, so they would attack without any real objective other than doing damage, but many opponents have training that tells them the best way to win a fight.

If you're sandbagging encounters it seems like these players will never learn anything. People who complain about "killer GMs", while sometimes correct, are generally in need of a little maturity.

By 'sandbagging' I mean that I often 'overlook' the automatic KO ability of some of my NPCs. I tend to 'forget' to have them use their Deathblow! attacks. I an prone to not have my enemy mages load up on buffs and then unload with the 'save or your toast' spells.

At least unless the PCs are doing this stuff. If the PCs demonstrate by their actions that they are fine with these tactics then everyone uses them.....but mainly the reason I don't is that it can get really boring as a GM.
I already have basically everyone else in the universe to juggle....I don't really need to make it seem like the universe is out to get the PCs personally. Its really not much fun as a GM to sit there and beat up PCs. I always have a bigger fish, so its not like its hard. What I want to do is tell a cool story that everyone gets involved in, and gets so excited about being involved in that the action seems like part of it. I want a cool movie where the fights are part of the sequence, not a montage of plot and twine that cobbles one fight to the next.

[eliakon]

GOOD! Maybe then players wouldn't be so gung ho for combat.

What kind of player-pool are you pulling from where PCs feel gung ho over a 5% chance to K.O. a target?!

Besides this, those numbers I gave you; pretty much 98% (heh) of the community who play Rifts are utterly unaware of the odds against them. Even more so, the odds are that your typical opponent will not have a K.O. attack, and still more so, your players do not have scouters to tell them what level and HtH each opponent has.

That is; the gung ho attitude has nothing to do with that 5% K.O. and everything to do with "I can do 3d6x10 per attack with my boomgun!"

Ah, the boomgun/glitterboy, that can impair so many of the rest of the group and signal the group's location to any un-involved monsters/enemies. "Look aerial recon, lets hide." Uttered someone in the group with the giant armored mirror.

So hide it?
Heck it has been canon for ages now that you can put camouflage paint over a Glitterboy with out degrading their armor in the slightest (Was it the Hawkeye that did this first?)
I find a LOT of the QQing about stuff like 'the Glitterboy is attracting attention, so Glitterboys are bad' or 'Cyberknights are stupid because of their code" is not because of the actual character or item.....it is because of the way that the group is dealing with it and their personal prejudices on the subject. It is amazing the number of times that I have seen people whine about something as 'well this thing here is stupid because it ruins the game for the rest of the group'....when they play it as "if you have X you must play in stupid/stereotypical/caricature way Y that ruins things"
I will admit freely that sometimes as a GM I disallow things because of problems with previous players. But even then I am usually open to listening to a player discuss why they should be allowed to play with their power/spell/toy.

[Alrik Vas]

On that note specifically, elialon, why do you bother? There are some enemies who have no real tactical prowess, so they would attack without any real objective other than doing damage, but many opponents have training that tells them the best way to win a fight.

If you're sandbagging encounters it seems like these players will never learn anything. People who complain about "killer GMs", while sometimes correct, are generally in need of a little maturity.

By 'sandbagging' I mean that I often 'overlook' the automatic KO ability of some of my NPCs. I tend to 'forget' to have them use their Deathblow! attacks. I an prone to not have my enemy mages load up on buffs and then unload with the 'save or your toast' spells.

At least unless the PCs are doing this stuff. If the PCs demonstrate by their actions that they are fine with these tactics then everyone uses them.....but mainly the reason I don't is that it can get really boring as a GM.
I already have basically everyone else in the universe to juggle....I don't really need to make it seem like the universe is out to get the PCs personally. Its really not much fun as a GM to sit there and beat up PCs. I always have a bigger fish, so its not like its hard. What I want to do is tell a cool story that everyone gets involved in, and gets so excited about being involved in that the action seems like part of it. I want a cool movie where the fights are part of the sequence, not a montage of plot and twine that cobbles one fight to the next.

Holding back or "forgetting" is sandbagging. It doesn't matter though, I understand your purpose.

[Dog_O_War]

Ignore tactical adaptability for a moment and just focus on the maturity level of people who go, "we're not kids, we can take it!" Then pitch a @&$=# when their characters die or are even simply defeated.

That's more or less what I was talking about.

I get you.

But you do need to waste a lot of time in life to realize how precious an investment of time is.

Personally, I dislike it when a character dies, but I only really hate it if the times I spent with with said character were wasteful and in reality I'm just kicking myself.

[Dog_O_War]

Ah, the boomgun/glitterboy, that can impair so many of the rest of the group and signal the group's location to any un-involved monsters/enemies. "Look aerial recon, lets hide." Uttered someone in the group with the giant armored mirror.

Personally, if I were an un-involved monster/enemy, I'd know better than to try and fight a Glitterboy.

Picture this:

Gorilla-Man Bob, "hey guys, you wanna go get killed today by a shiny object?"
the guys, "no, not really."

[Alrik Vas]

I can't count the number of times I've told my players, "well, some bandits looked your way on the trip, but they saw the boom gun and kept a low profile."

[Hotrod]

My beef with HTH assassin is the alignment restriction; I usually ignore it.

[eliakon]

My beef with HTH assassin is the alignment restriction; I usually ignore it.

I forget a lot of alignment stuff since I don't usually play with alignments in my games....
But since people can change alignments its usually not an issue, if you were evil when you were being taught assassination it doesn't mean you are evil now. Just explain in your back story the hows and whys and go from there.

[SittingBull]

GOOD! Maybe then players wouldn't be so gung ho for combat.

What kind of player-pool are you pulling from where PCs feel gung ho over a 5% chance to K.O. a target?!

Besides this, those numbers I gave you; pretty much 98% (heh) of the community who play Rifts are utterly unaware of the odds against them. Even more so, the odds are that your typical opponent will not have a K.O. attack, and still more so, your players do not have scouters to tell them what level and HtH each opponent has.

That is; the gung ho attitude has nothing to do with that 5% K.O. and everything to do with "I can do 3d6x10 per attack with my boomgun!"

Ah, the boomgun/glitterboy, that can impair so many of the rest of the group and signal the group's location to any un-involved monsters/enemies. "Look aerial recon, lets hide." Uttered someone in the group with the giant armored mirror.

So hide it?
Heck it has been canon for ages now that you can put camouflage paint over a Glitterboy with out degrading their armor in the slightest (Was it the Hawkeye that did this first?)
I find a LOT of the QQing about stuff like 'the Glitterboy is attracting attention, so Glitterboys are bad' or 'Cyberknights are stupid because of their code" is not because of the actual character or item.....it is because of the way that the group is dealing with it and their personal prejudices on the subject. It is amazing the number of times that I have seen people whine about something as 'well this thing here is stupid because it ruins the game for the rest of the group'....when they play it as "if you have X you must play in stupid/stereotypical/caricature way Y that ruins things"
I will admit freely that sometimes as a GM I disallow things because of problems with previous players. But even then I am usually open to listening to a player discuss why they should be allowed to play with their power/spell/toy.

Maybe camouflage netting to disguise the GB on the move but the reflective coating is there for half laser damage.

[SittingBull]

Ah, the boomgun/glitterboy, that can impair so many of the rest of the group and signal the group's location to any un-involved monsters/enemies. "Look aerial recon, lets hide." Uttered someone in the group with the giant armored mirror.

Personally, if I were an un-involved monster/enemy, I'd know better than to try and fight a Glitterboy.

Picture this:

Gorilla-Man Bob, "hey guys, you wanna go get killed today by a shiny object?"
the guys, "no, not really."

True, but what is said monster is part of a group or swarm?

[eliakon]

GOOD! Maybe then players wouldn't be so gung ho for combat.

What kind of player-pool are you pulling from where PCs feel gung ho over a 5% chance to K.O. a target?!

Besides this, those numbers I gave you; pretty much 98% (heh) of the community who play Rifts are utterly unaware of the odds against them. Even more so, the odds are that your typical opponent will not have a K.O. attack, and still more so, your players do not have scouters to tell them what level and HtH each opponent has.

That is; the gung ho attitude has nothing to do with that 5% K.O. and everything to do with "I can do 3d6x10 per attack with my boomgun!"

Ah, the boomgun/glitterboy, that can impair so many of the rest of the group and signal the group's location to any un-involved monsters/enemies. "Look aerial recon, lets hide." Uttered someone in the group with the giant armored mirror.

So hide it?
Heck it has been canon for ages now that you can put camouflage paint over a Glitterboy with out degrading their armor in the slightest (Was it the Hawkeye that did this first?)
I find a LOT of the QQing about stuff like 'the Glitterboy is attracting attention, so Glitterboys are bad' or 'Cyberknights are stupid because of their code" is not because of the actual character or item.....it is because of the way that the group is dealing with it and their personal prejudices on the subject. It is amazing the number of times that I have seen people whine about something as 'well this thing here is stupid because it ruins the game for the rest of the group'....when they play it as "if you have X you must play in stupid/stereotypical/caricature way Y that ruins things"
I will admit freely that sometimes as a GM I disallow things because of problems with previous players. But even then I am usually open to listening to a player discuss why they should be allowed to play with their power/spell/toy.

Maybe camouflage netting to disguise the GB on the move but the reflective coating is there for half laser damage.

The canon has pretty well established that SDC coatings can be put over the coating with out degrading it. The MD Laser simply vaporizes a hole in the paint and THEN is disrupted by the armor. This is the same theory that says that you cant claim that since a GB has some mud on it that a laser does full damage......
Any 'paint' durable enough to interfere with the laser properties would be an exo-armor shell in and of itself......

[SittingBull]

Canon obviously missed or not cared about by gamers in my area, at the time.

[Dog_O_War]

Ah, the boomgun/glitterboy, that can impair so many of the rest of the group and signal the group's location to any un-involved monsters/enemies. "Look aerial recon, lets hide." Uttered someone in the group with the giant armored mirror.

Personally, if I were an un-involved monster/enemy, I'd know better than to try and fight a Glitterboy.

Picture this:

Gorilla-Man Bob, "hey guys, you wanna go get killed today by a shiny object?"
the guys, "no, not really."

True, but what is said monster is part of a group or swarm?

In my example, that was a monster that was part of a group.

Basically only those beings that are unintelligent/ignorant, suicidal, or otherwise those who have a reason to be confident attack a Glitterboy.

[Alrik Vas]

Or those with their own long range heavy weapons and good camouflage.

If you surprise one with called shots, you can take out the boom stick before they can counter.

[eliakon]

Or those with their own long range heavy weapons and good camouflage.

If you surprise one with called shots, you can take out the boom stick before they can counter.

That would probably come under the "confidant" clause (I have yet to see an ambush team that wasn't confidant in their skills.....its not something the timid or the foolhardy do (more than once))

[Alrik Vas]

Haha, I see ambushes with misplaced confidence quite a bit. Being certain doesn't make you successful. Winning does.

[eliakon]

Haha, I see ambushes with misplaced confidence quite a bit. Being certain doesn't make you successful. Winning does.

That's the "more than once" bit

[Axelmania]

99% of GMs I have played with in real life have never let players be able to sneak attack opponents. That and most Rift games rarely go past level 2 or 3 anyway.

Your GMs didn't let people attempt prowl roles?

Prowl is less uber once perception rules are introduced but even then most people don't have many of those.

There's even a N&SS art of invisibility dedicated towards staying behind someone to keep inflicting surprise crits.

Ah, the boomgun/glitterboy, that can impair so many of the rest of the group and signal the group's location to any un-involved monsters/enemies. "Look aerial recon, lets hide." Uttered someone in the group with the giant armored mirror.

Those shiny things that a Flying Titan PA with a payload of short-range AP missiles can cripple in a single volley?

My beef with HTH assassin is the alignment restriction; I usually ignore it.

It's not built into the skill itself, some OCCs do not have an alignment restriction to select it, just like some are 'anarchist or evil only' while others are 'evil only'. Fixers/Scholars/Scientists/Cyber-Docs had no alignment restrictions originally. RUE limited the healers to Expert, Scholar to martial arts and added an alignment restriction to the Scientist for assassin though. OCCs in previous books still are open unless they got shadow-amended. Shifters can be anarchist and select it.

[SittingBull]

99% of GMs I have played with in real life have never let players be able to sneak attack opponents. That and most Rift games rarely go past level 2 or 3 anyway.

Your GMs didn't let people attempt prowl roles?

Prowl is less uber once perception rules are introduced but even then most people don't have many of those.

Nope. Of course of lot players weren't even of the mind to TRY THIS which left those who 'had the mind to try' with no time to try... When we would get them reigned in, before a fight, then the GM would blitzkrieg us (try to make the players who were being reign in, happy). That's basically the gist of it. Most combats, from all the games I played in, might as well taken place in a flat dirt field...

There's even a N&SS art of invisibility dedicated towards staying behind someone to keep inflicting surprise crits.

Ah, the boomgun/glitterboy, that can impair so many of the rest of the group and signal the group's location to any un-involved monsters/enemies. "Look aerial recon, lets hide." Uttered someone in the group with the giant armored mirror.

Those shiny things that a Flying Titan PA with a payload of short-range AP missiles can cripple in a single volley?

Exactly!!!

[Alrik Vas]

With opportunity, talent and luck, sure, SittingBull. That has likely happened more than once. There is likely an endless list of things that can stall, cripple or outright destroy a high MDC power armor that has a long range weapon.

Though I wouldn't call it an every day occurrence, even during a large battle.

[Dog_O_War]

Ah, the boomgun/glitterboy, that can impair so many of the rest of the group and signal the group's location to any un-involved monsters/enemies. "Look aerial recon, lets hide." Uttered someone in the group with the giant armored mirror.

Those shiny things that a Flying Titan PA with a payload of short-range AP missiles can cripple in a single volley?

Short Range missiles do the same damage as mini-missiles, however, they can carry less SRMs and the range is not impressive.

With that in mind, they can't even target the boomgun, and the GB gets to attack the missiles; so how is it that the Flying Titan is magically crippling the GB?

[Shark_Force]

With opportunity, talent and luck, sure, SittingBull. That has likely happened more than once. There is likely an endless list of things that can stall, cripple or outright destroy a high MDC power armor that has a long range weapon.

Though I wouldn't call it an every day occurrence, even during a large battle.

not to mention that generally speaking, anything that cripples the glitter boy would have probably just *killed* whoever else it hit. the boom gun is only a low-MDC target compared to the glitter boy's main body. it actually has MDC fairly close to some other (light) power armour suits.

[Alrik Vas]

Dog, SRM average double what a mini deals.

Can't shoot down a surprise attack. Even if it isn't a sneak, chances are you'll still get tagged by the volley -1.

Armor piercing SRM would be even deadlier.

[Dog_O_War]

Dog, SRM average double what a mini deals.

Can't shoot down a surprise attack. Even if it isn't a sneak, chances are you'll still get tagged by the volley -1.

Armor piercing SRM would be even deadlier.

It's been a while since I've looked at the missile charts (or maybe a newer book has an updated one), but last I read, SRMs were basically long-range mini-missiles, and it wasn't until you got up to medium range missiles that the damage increased.

Also, you can't get a surprise attack using an object that can be tracked on radar, to shoot a target you need to track on radar, which requires that (since the GB cannot fly) you need to be visible on radar.

Long-range attack, yes. But like I said originally, you get a shot at those missiles (not that you're gonna hit with the penalty, but still).

All of that aside; even at 2d6x10 per missile (plasma, assuming that SRMs really do deal double), you're still only averaging 420 damage for that volley - that's not going to kill your target, just make it really, really mad. Meanwhile your target is capable of dealing that in less than a round, and only requires 2 shots to annihilate you. And that this target also has better sensor equipment than you, which means that he's likely to see you before you can see him, and if you're relying on visuals, you're probably in his kill-range.

Keeping in-mind that it's been pre-discussed (SittingBull mentioned) that this "big shiny mirror" also has a group of friends around him, of which there may also be a PA pilot or dragon or something, why would a guy in a Flying Titan think it was valid tactic to do this? (rhetorical: he's either foolish, suicidal, or has an actual reason to be confident).

Additionally, as an AOE volley, that also means that everyone else in the AOE gets a defence; those missiles may never reach their target (a singular plasma mini-missile can attack the area they're in, incurring no speed penalty and more than likely torch the entire volley).

[Alrik Vas]

I don't understand what you're pointing out, I was the one saying it can happen but it isn't likely.