Expanding the RPG & the 3 Laws of Robotech

[Colonel Wolfe]

Foreword on this topic:
Many of the discussions on the forums tread the ground around placing ideas within the limits of canon. It ends up trying to limit any expansion of the Robotech setting but, RPG’s are about expansion and about creating new stories (the "Sandbox"). My philosophy is to include everything we see in the 85-episodes, Movies and, to a lesser extent, comics. Then add more things just for the RPG. For this, I find the RPG will conflict with the canon established in the canon production, when these conflicts arise, I prefer to cleave closer to the canon established by the actual completed animated productions. An example of this problem is the VHT-1’s rate of fire being hamstrung to about 10% of the established ROF in the series making its markedly inferior to the units performance in the show. For this, I would like to see corrections to the RPG to cleave closer to the singular canon that Harmony Gold sells in its DVD-sets, a common source that is easily available today.
Now, the actual gist of this Topic: Expanding Robotech beyond the canon while respecting the canon and adventure hooks that follow along with this ideology. To this end, I developed Wolfe’s Three Laws of Robotech.

The Three Laws of Robotech
1) The Primary canon is the 85 series; it is the foundation for all other productions and takes precedence in all conflicts. {per Harmony Gold}
2) The movies and comics may expand the story of Robotech, except when they create conflicts with the first law.
3) Expansion of the Robotech in the RPG should be limitless, using the first and second law as foundations, as long as these expansions do not alter the first two laws.

Colonies:
Within the Show and Comics, we see that the focus of Human survival after the Holocaust at the hands of Invaders was to move the Humans beyond their cradle and seed humanity to the stars. Gloval’s initiative set forth for the mission with the SFD-2 and its task force was to establish colonial efforts. Well before his death you see that humanity is scouting well beyond the solar system, the Master’s even encountered the remains of a RDF ship 20ly from earth. There is a mindset that the Destruction of the SDF-2 waylaid the plans of the RDF to expand to the stars. However, comments in the Comics by Gen. Renidhart beg to differ, He is worried about the Invid attacking other human colonies in the universe if they cannot be contained on earth. The REF forces returning with Scott echo the sentiment expressed by Lancer 4 years earlier when he wondered why the REF was wasting resources trying to liberate earth when humanity has other colonies to protect. Within the realm of the RPG, we could explore these colonies; define different levels of colonies even detail colonies based on when they were established. A Colony of 10,000 founded in 2015 may have become nearly self-sufficient by the time of the Invid invasion and possibly seeking independent representation by the haydonite war. These colonies would have had a glut of refugees from earth judging by how the RDF was able to evacuate cities like Denver or New York during then end of the Master’s assault on earth. Judging by the designs of most of the REF ships and the detail level of Space station Liberty, these populations were not evacuated to live on these ships; they do not have the ability to support these population levels over an extended period of time. This leaves 2 options for the populations evacuated option one is they died, and can be written out and limit the expansion of the setting, or they moved to off world colonies established prior to the Master’s assault on earth and open new places in the sand-box to play.
New Mecha designs:
While I don’t like the Designs present in the new marines book for the previously detailed REF Destroids, but the existence of the designs as other units (namely as the Marine’s versions of the old RDF Destroids in the early REF era, with the original designs existing as Later era units) would be no problem under this method. You could also re-add the extra designs presented in Strike Force, Return of the Masters, or any homebrew design you like. Competing Military contractors would develop and design many design test beds. Colonies, once established, could adopt self-defense designs they manufacture themselves that are not the set designs. Other Governments on Earth prior to the Master’s assault could have also designed and fielded mecha unique to their own forces; we know this is possible from the fact the US-Army was seen using Destroid designs in the Zentradie-Era.
Setting:
I was never a fan of the EBSIS, it is a bit dated and overtly hokey. The cash-in on the cold-war mentality it established and the Snidely Whiplash evil it invoked needs to go. The idea of other nation-states existing alongside and as member states of the United Earth Government. This adds so many more levels to the setting to explore. Robotech its self is so focused on the events surrounding a small group of characters that the world as a whole is left almost completely open to expansion that follow the 3 laws. You could combine these nations with the colonial expansion idea, and you could have a Pac-Asian colony founded by a government that rules that region of the planet (think Sid Meier’s Beyond-Earth).

Any RPG should be about creating options for the players. These options can be expansive and varied without disrespecting the source.


*Edit*
Its been brought up that this may be interpreted as rules for discussion involving Robotech, I in now way want to limit what is discussed, or limit the discussions to "canon only". I am about expanding the setting and respecting the Canon. I feel if the RPG's production of new source materials is to be fruitful and proper, it should also respect the existing and established canon, much of which is unchanged for the past decade. the pre-2000 versions of canon were mired in errors and contradictions and end up being to confusing to use as a sound foundation for the future of the RPG. Canon is a foundation to build upon, not a noose to strangle the setting.

[Jefffar]

It's regrettable that the EU content for Star Wars got the treatment it did when Disney took over the series, because the old SW RPG was just about the best example of what an RPG could do to expand upon a small (3 movies) source and turn it into something far more vast and immersive.

The first edition of Robotech, for all its difficulties in getting the on-screen material right, was very good at providing a sandbox in which the GM and players could manouvre. I think the 2nd Edition has kept a lot of this, but its been sidelined a bit until the last 2 - 3 books. Still, in Shadow Chronicles and Master's Saga we have references to human opponents to the UEEF/ASC.

Personally, my 2nd edition campaigns have included (aside from revisions to the book material) additional human factions (with their own mecha and vehicles), conflicts not discussed in the series and new character options. This is without leaving earth. I find the eras between the chapters of the Robotech TV series to be the most adaptable as we know the beginning and the end points, but there is still lots of room in between to figure out how they got there.

Campaign scaling is also important. If you do it right, a campaign centred on a single city state can be as epic as the maiden voyage of the SDF-1.

[Alpha 11]

I could go with this!

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

It is certainly true that as of late, the forums have taken a nosedive as we are basically hounded endlessly if we bring up logical expansions of the RPG. The MOSPEADA Armo-Soldiers would be a great example, since 2 of the 5 have appeared in either Robotech itself or canon comics. That there is still a mountain of unused production (Robotech, Shadow Chronicles) and preproduction (The Sentinels) designs waiting to be cataloged is bothersome in the extreme. I would much rather have seen these in the RPG than the pile of kludged together IMU's that have infested the last 3 books.

[glitterboy2098]

the star wars EU is a good example of how you could expand. it also however contains some examples of how you need decent developmental oversight. while some material is obviously lower quality and probably shouldn't have been deemed a part of the universe (example: the Ewok cartoon show and comics, the holiday special), there are some of arguable quality (Children of the jedi, Darksaber, the inclusion of some of the more abstract videogames, etc), and some that while fairly well written at times, was of questionable choice for addition and split the fandom (the Yuuzhan Vong and later stuff), and some that just muddled the canon because of the questionable methods the writer did (the prequel film based 'incredible cross section' books by Saxton, which added things like a star destroyer burning a tenth of its mass a second in fuel, having anti-infantry guns measured in multi-kiloton yeilds, and so on.. it's not surprising that it reads like a "my fandom is better than yours" tantrum, since Saxton was neck deep in a "star trek vs star wars" fued at the time..)

but over all, the EU has more good stuff than bad.

[Colonel Wolfe]

It's regrettable that the EU content for Star Wars got the treatment it did when Disney took over the series, because the old SW RPG was just about the best example of what an RPG could do to expand upon a small (3 movies) source and turn it into something far more vast and immersive.

While I never was a fan of the Euelements of SW, I understand what you're getting at here. There was very little defined by Lucas's movies. sticking to the movie's production for the 1978 Starwars canon, you have 3 women in the universe, and one of them gets burned alive. a RPG had to expand this alot to be playable.

The first edition of Robotech, for all its difficulties in getting the on-screen material right, was very good at providing a sandbox in which the GM and players could manouvre. I think the 2nd Edition has kept a lot of this, but its been sidelined a bit until the last 2 - 3 books. Still, in Shadow Chronicles and Master's Saga we have references to human opponents to the UEEF/ASC.

Expanding to add additional human factions is necessary. any production for a post invid earth setting should deal with the fact the Humans the REf left to die on earth formed their own communities and governments while under occupation, and may want to retain some level of autonomy.

Personally, my 2nd edition campaigns have included (aside from revisions to the book material) additional human factions (with their own mecha and vehicles), conflicts not discussed in the series and new character options. This is without leaving earth. I find the eras between the chapters of the Robotech TV series to be the most adaptable as we know the beginning and the end points, but there is still lots of room in between to figure out how they got there.

New Conflicts are the biggest thing the RPG could bring to the setting. Strike-force, ROTM and even Ghost Ship or Lancers rockers brought conflicts not covered in the Series for the players to interact with.

Campaign scaling is also important. If you do it right, a campaign centred on a single city state can be as epic as the maiden voyage of the SDF-1.

from watching some Gundamn, the Story from 0080 is just as compelling as any of the Larger gundamn conflicts... Personal struggles aren't any less powerful when the backdrop isn't some over-though space drama... a Small squad of Cyclone riders helping a farmer protect his crops from Invid mutated grasshoppers can have just an epic feel if played right.

[Colonel Wolfe]

New Conflicts:
Robotech focuses primarily on struggles of a few people during a very short time frame spread out over nearly 40 years. For the focus of a series or comic, this works well. The Zentradi Era and the Invid Era both highlight a few key struggles over a larger period of years. the Masters saga has the shortest window of time and covers an intense, but short, fight for survival against an Enemy who is behind an 8-ball; even this only shows the tiniest of scope into the conflict as a whole. As the Comics have shown, other conflicts happened off screen with chracters, Rick is fighting Zentradi insurgents with his prototype VF-4, Lancer arrives in the failed 10th mars division, In prelude they mention the Sentinels liberated their own world from the invid shortly before allying with the REF. These windows into the undetailed portions of the setting can host a wide variaty of conflicts that wouldn't sit outside the establised story.
Play a Group of Sentinels aliens who are figthign the Regent, Play a RDF team that is cleaning up the ZCZ in south america, or GMP group who are dealing with the EBSIS in a boarder dispute with the Pac-Union.
New Conflicts need to be the bread and butter for expanding the sandbox.

[Lt Gargoyle]

not to mention the Humans of earth after the Invid occupation is gone. The anti UEEF forces fighting back. And how much of the precious resources is the fleet willing to sacrifice to bring the earth back under UEG control. Could they. It looked like a large chunk of the fleet was beat down in the battle at space station liberty.

I think its more fun to play in games that fill in the over all story.

[Jefffar]

There are definite signs that reclaiming the Earth won't be simple for the UEEF. One of the adventure hooks in the Shadow Chronicles books involves a flight of VF-1s or Conbats informing the UEEF characters that they are infringing upon sovereign territory and that they need to leave or face the consequences.

The fact that this occurs over eastern Europe/western Russia has been my justification for an EBSIS like force having existed during the occupation if not earlier.

[glitterboy2098]

that adventure hook was actually one of the inspirations for my using the Baltic nations as the 2nd ed EBSIS. and making sure they had a source for VF-1's. (the decision to delay giving them that source till after 2020 was so they'd have to ration them earlier in their existence. and to drive them focusing on Destroids and tanks instead of VF's.)

my notes for eastern europe during the invid occupation derive from my baltic EBSIS material and the canon details from New Generation Sourcebook.. a collections of city-states controlled by warlords, frequently clashing over territory and stockpiles of advanced equipment/supplies. each warlord having gathered a personal army together through salvage and seizure.. since production of new hardware is limited to simpler items and new tanks, mecha, and such are beyond their means.
in it, because mecha are powerful but hardest to maintain, and their SLMH fuel so hard to come by, the warlords treat mecha pilots like Knights of old. used sparingly and their pilots tend to hold higher status within the society.

i figure the "wandering mecha pilot" that most players would prefer to be could be a "knight errant" type thing.. they'd always be courted by different factions, and have to worry about their mecha being stolen or seized.

(although i use medieval terms for this, the actual situation would be like like say, central africa, the middle east, or the like. the warlords being more like criminal bosses and rogue generals.)

[Nekira Sudacne]

While they do sound fairly simple, I do have a couple problems with the preposed laws. For one, where do the Novels come in? I've always drawn pretty heavily from the McKinney novels, but apparently they don't even rate on this scale. For the second, the idea that nothing you put in your game can contradict anything in the show, or movies, or comic books is actually very limiting in that I don't really have the time or the money to SEE them all. The preposed "laws" assume a fan has bothered to track down every peice of extended material and wants to work within them. I saw maybe half the series, read the novels (which I much prefer to the origional 85 series to be honest), and pretty much just made up whatever the heck I wanted to do with the setting when time came to play the RPG. I don't think that's wrong, either.

[glitterboy2098]

novels aren't canon at all in HG's robotech. nor are the pre-wildstorm comics.

in a discussion of the direction the RPG should take based on the canon, they rate about as high as "using star wars films for material in robotech". a place you might be able to grab concepts from,. but not something that can be adapted whole cloth.

the novels were decent on their own, but they cause huge headaches when you try to showhorn them into the new continuity. mostly bcause they clash so much with the show and with HG's revised canon.

as for "assuming degrees of knowledge".. it would be reasonable that if someone is writing for and creating new material for the robotech RPG, that they'd actually bother to the the research.

ultimately, it was relying on novels and failing to do the research that got us the disappointment that is UEEF Marines

[Jefffar]

While they do sound fairly simple, I do have a couple problems with the preposed laws. For one, where do the Novels come in? I've always drawn pretty heavily from the McKinney novels, but apparently they don't even rate on this scale. For the second, the idea that nothing you put in your game can contradict anything in the show, or movies, or comic books is actually very limiting in that I don't really have the time or the money to SEE them all. The preposed "laws" assume a fan has bothered to track down every peice of extended material and wants to work within them. I saw maybe half the series, read the novels (which I much prefer to the origional 85 series to be honest), and pretty much just made up whatever the heck I wanted to do with the setting when time came to play the RPG. I don't think that's wrong, either.

Very good points and I think before anyone else responds to this, we need to remember to differentiate what we use in our own campaigns from what should be done in expanding the Robtech RPG seres' official books.

Everyone is free to run the game the way they want, which is what Nerika's post deals with. You don't have to be a Robotech expert to play the Robotech game and nor should you be.

However, official content for the Robotech Universe as produced by Palladium and authorized by Harmony Gold should fit the criteria laid out in the original post in this thread. There is a lot of material within that realm for Palladium to mine still plus those rules give Palladium the ability to create new things never seen before.

[Nekira Sudacne]

novels aren't canon at all in HG's robotech. nor are the pre-wildstorm comics.

in a discussion of the direction the RPG should take based on the canon, they rate about as high as "using star wars films for material in robotech". a place you might be able to grab concepts from,. but not something that can be adapted whole cloth.

the novels were decent on their own, but they cause huge headaches when you try to showhorn them into the new continuity. mostly bcause they clash so much with the show and with HG's revised canon.

as for "assuming degrees of knowledge".. it would be reasonable that if someone is writing for and creating new material for the robotech RPG, that they'd actually bother to the the research.

ultimately, it was relying on novels and failing to do the research that got us the disappointment that is UEEF Marines

The post didn't appear to concern the rules for Palladium staff writing stuff for future Robotech books, it was specifically talking about rules to follow when discussing ideas on these forums, it said on in the very first sentance. to which I can only say "Heck no, I should be able to talk about stuff I want to use in home RPG's without having to follow "canon" precicely"

As for palladium writers adhereing to these rules, that depends entirely on how generous or restrictive the Licencing agreement was. I know the First edition Robotech RPG was very generous and allowed palladium to play fast and lose with cannon (the EBSIS being an obvious example). I don't know if their current licence permits them similar creative freedom to add new things to the line.

[Colonel Wolfe]

While they do sound fairly simple, I do have a couple problems with the preposed laws. For one, where do the Novels come in? I've always drawn pretty heavily from the McKinney novels, but apparently they don't even rate on this scale.

Ah, The Novels:
the novels fit somewhere between Law 2 and Law 3... firmly fitting in with neither as the expansions it made to the universe and the details its creates are highly contradictory to the 1st Law.
The Novels attempts to compress the events in Robotech's later 2 eras into a period of less than 4 years. The Novels has Lancer coming back to earth to fight the invid a year before the invid attack earth (based on the fact he has been on earth at least 3 years in the series)... as well of a Myriad of other problem that were the main reason Harmony Gold abandoned that story line from canon. The RPG is best not to develop ideas from the novels, less you get a cluster-bomb like the Marines book with is just the novels plot-line for the rpg.

For the second, the idea that nothing you put in your game can contradict anything in the show, or movies, or comic books is actually very limiting in that I don't really have the time or the money to SEE them all. The preposed "laws" assume a fan has bothered to track down every peice of extended material and wants to work within them. I saw maybe half the series, read the novels (which I much prefer to the origional 85 series to be honest), and pretty much just made up whatever the heck I wanted to do with the setting when time came to play the RPG. I don't think that's wrong, either.

What a GM decides to do in their home-brewed Robotech game is completely up to them, The Show is the more easily available today than at any point in the past, the Current DVD set covers the entire production of Robotech from the 85-series to LLA in one box set for less than 50 bucks. The Comics are near impossible to find, thats why they would be a secondary source.
I'm not saying running a game how you want to is wrong, That has been a problem in the forums for the last few years, people shooting down Ideas to expand the setting in anyway.
The Issue here is expanding Robotech in ways that fit within the confines of the Established canon setting.
If you were playing a Star-wars RPG, and the GM said that the Hero of the Rebel alliance is James T Kirk of the Enterprise, with his 2nd in command Optimus Prime, its strains to call that a Star-wars game anymore... especially when he has Vader removes his mask and revel himself to be Serpentor before shouting "Cobra-lalala" and ignoting his lightsaber....
I mean that's fine if your having fun, but once we begin to stray into eclectic home-brews we really aren't looking at expanding the source setting.

[Colonel Wolfe]

The post didn't appear to concern the rules for Palladium staff writing stuff for future Robotech books, it was specifically talking about rules to follow when discussing ideas on these forums, it said on in the very first sentance. to which I can only say "Heck no, I should be able to talk about stuff I want to use in home RPG's without having to follow "canon" precicely"

As for palladium writers adhereing to these rules, that depends entirely on how generous or restrictive the Licencing agreement was. I know the First edition Robotech RPG was very generous and allowed palladium to play fast and lose with cannon (the EBSIS being an obvious example). I don't know if their current licence permits them similar creative freedom to add new things to the line.

The Foreward was talking about the Recent onset of a hostile environment for discussion about expanding the setting. Basically I agree with the Idea that we need to be able discuss anythign we like in this arena, anything that expands the setting beyond canon. sometimes things get shot down because they don't agree with a particular view on canon and that view is used as a hammer to quell free discussion about the topics... i'd like to see that end.
these "laws" exists as my own methodology for expansion, one that honors the common source for the products and allows the universe to still be a sandbox for players to play in.
If the last 3 books are any indication of the levels of restrictiveness HG has on the RPG, I'd rate it around "least restrictive environment possible"- Gura Invid, Hot-Glue Destroids and the Marines Time-line all all the proof one needs.
------
The problem become with this enviroment is not respecting the universe... if West End had published a Starwars book that made the Ewok into Space Nazi's who commit Genocide aginst the wookies, that book would be laughed out of canon... Robotech writers should take care to respect the source materials they are supposed to base their production on.

[Nekira Sudacne]

While they do sound fairly simple, I do have a couple problems with the preposed laws. For one, where do the Novels come in? I've always drawn pretty heavily from the McKinney novels, but apparently they don't even rate on this scale.

Ah, The Novels:
the novels fit somewhere between Law 2 and Law 3... firmly fitting in with neither as the expansions it made to the universe and the details its creates are highly contradictory to the 1st Law.
The Novels attempts to compress the events in Robotech's later 2 eras into a period of less than 4 years. The Novels has Lancer coming back to earth to fight the invid a year before the invid attack earth (based on the fact he has been on earth at least 3 years in the series)... as well of a Myriad of other problem that were the main reason Harmony Gold abandoned that story line from canon. The RPG is best not to develop ideas from the novels, less you get a cluster-bomb like the Marines book with is just the novels plot-line for the rpg.

It's only a cluster bomb if you don't like the glorious mess that was the Novels, mind. You like your brand of Cheese, I like mine

For the second, the idea that nothing you put in your game can contradict anything in the show, or movies, or comic books is actually very limiting in that I don't really have the time or the money to SEE them all. The preposed "laws" assume a fan has bothered to track down every peice of extended material and wants to work within them. I saw maybe half the series, read the novels (which I much prefer to the origional 85 series to be honest), and pretty much just made up whatever the heck I wanted to do with the setting when time came to play the RPG. I don't think that's wrong, either.

What a GM decides to do in their home-brewed Robotech game is completely up to them, The Show is the more easily available today than at any point in the past, the Current DVD set covers the entire production of Robotech from the 85-series to LLA in one box set for less than 50 bucks. The Comics are near impossible to find, thats why they would be a secondary source.
I'm not saying running a game how you want to is wrong, That has been a problem in the forums for the last few years, people shooting down Ideas to expand the setting in anyway.
The Issue here is expanding Robotech in ways that fit within the confines of the Established canon setting.
If you were playing a Star-wars RPG, and the GM said that the Hero of the Rebel alliance is James T Kirk of the Enterprise, with his 2nd in command Optimus Prime, its strains to call that a Star-wars game anymore... especially when he has Vader removes his mask and revel himself to be Serpentor before shouting "Cobra-lalala" and ignoting his lightsaber....
I mean that's fine if your having fun, but once we begin to stray into eclectic home-brews we really aren't looking at expanding the source setting.

Well sure, but there's a big difference between saying "I like to take the setting in odd directions in my games" to "A game with a nonsensical mashup is just as valid a setting". Sure, I know a few GM's who DO turn their games into hilarious mashups, but that's not what I was refering to.

The post didn't appear to concern the rules for Palladium staff writing stuff for future Robotech books, it was specifically talking about rules to follow when discussing ideas on these forums, it said on in the very first sentance. to which I can only say "Heck no, I should be able to talk about stuff I want to use in home RPG's without having to follow "canon" precicely"

As for palladium writers adhereing to these rules, that depends entirely on how generous or restrictive the Licencing agreement was. I know the First edition Robotech RPG was very generous and allowed palladium to play fast and lose with cannon (the EBSIS being an obvious example). I don't know if their current licence permits them similar creative freedom to add new things to the line.

The Foreward was talking about the Recent onset of a hostile environment for discussion about expanding the setting. Basically I agree with the Idea that we need to be able discuss anythign we like in this arena, anything that expands the setting beyond canon. sometimes things get shot down because they don't agree with a particular view on canon and that view is used as a hammer to quell free discussion about the topics... i'd like to see that end.
these "laws" exists as my own methodology for expansion, one that honors the common source for the products and allows the universe to still be a sandbox for players to play in.
If the last 3 books are any indication of the levels of restrictiveness HG has on the RPG, I'd rate it around "least restrictive environment possible"- Gura Invid, Hot-Glue Destroids and the Marines Time-line all all the proof one needs.
------
The problem become with this enviroment is not respecting the universe... if West End had published a Starwars book that made the Ewok into Space Nazi's who commit Genocide aginst the wookies, that book would be laughed out of canon... Robotech writers should take care to respect the source materials they are supposed to base their production on.

Then pehaps i'm simply confused on how creating a sliding scale of canon will help the problem with ideas being shot down for being non-canon. it seems counter-intuitive. "I don't like people's ideas for their games being shot down for being noncanon, so i'm going to create a set of rules to clearly prove they are not canon". I don't pretend the SDF 3's disaperance was a breif jot over to Rifts was canon in any way, but it still happened in my games.

Prehaps I should clarify I tend to classify debates on these forums into two catagories: Rules-debates, which are simple, factual "What does the RPG book/other source material say". which usually has a clear-cut answer if a passage is found, or else has to be interpreted from what material can be found. but sinse the question is only "Which of these options is cannon", then naturally only the canon answers matter". the alternative is "Here's an idea for a game, or something I made up for a game, or something that could be cool to add to the game". Which to me has no pretense of being based in canon sinse I or someone else clearly made it up, so the question of how cannonical or not it is seems to not really matter, except insofar as it makes sense to the setting. As you say, putting James T Kirk into Robotech along with the enterprise is clearly not cannonical, but there's also not much discussion to be had about it either. either you go "that'll be so awesome" and use it, or more likely I just shrug and click on the next topic

Or tl:dr version: The problem isn't that people are unclear on what is or is not cannon, the problem is some people are unclear on how to debate new ideas that don't fit their own ideas are.

[Colonel Wolfe]

It's only a cluster bomb if you don't like the glorious mess that was the Novels, mind. You like your brand of Cheese, I like mine

If I was going to join a Robotech game you run I would hope you would fore-warn me that the time-line and events you follow are based on a source that contradicts the current version of the game... as I am to play a Chracter in your universe, and not the base setting.

Then pehaps i'm simply confused on how creating a sliding scale of canon will help the problem with ideas being shot down for being non-canon. it seems counter-intuitive. "I don't like people's ideas for their games being shot down for being noncanon, so i'm going to create a set of rules to clearly prove they are not canon". I don't pretend the SDF 3's disaperance was a breif jot over to Rifts was canon in any way, but it still happened in my games.

because it places the RPG on the scale. There is a difference between saying "Those events are non-canon and thus they can Never could happen" and saying "those events aren't canon, but fall completely within the realm of possibility of the Robotech Universe."
I am for the Idea of Expanding Robotech and staying true to its source. these are not diametrically opposed options. I don't look at Canon as a box that cannot be expanded, but as the foundation for which you build the expanding game universe.
Wayne Breaux developed some of my favirote designs in Robotech, these units aren't part of the current RPG, but would make their way into any extended game I would run because I think they are cool, and they add to the universe.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's only a cluster bomb if you don't like the glorious mess that was the Novels, mind. You like your brand of Cheese, I like mine

If I was going to join a Robotech game you run I would hope you would fore-warn me that the time-line and events you follow are based on a source that contradicts the current version of the game... as I am to play a Chracter in your universe, and not the base setting.

Don't worry, whenever I run any game, I always give players an upfront disclaimer of any major changes I am making to the setting (there are always a few). If I were to run a Robotech game, I would probablly have to open a topic on these forums asking for help drawing a timeline, sinse if i'm being honest, I really can't remember what things I remember came from which source at this point.

Given I was given a whole mashup of sources, from the RPG's, to the anime, to the books, to the origional Macross and Gensis Climber Mospead anime, to the other Macross material, to this Forums own Zerebus's re-imaged setting, Frankly, I'd be more likely to ask you for help in making a timeline that makes sense given that mashup of inspirational material I have floating around in my head. I don't think i'd even dare try to run a game without a weekend-bender re-watching the Robotech series to refresh my memory at the least.

Then pehaps i'm simply confused on how creating a sliding scale of canon will help the problem with ideas being shot down for being non-canon. it seems counter-intuitive. "I don't like people's ideas for their games being shot down for being noncanon, so i'm going to create a set of rules to clearly prove they are not canon". I don't pretend the SDF 3's disaperance was a breif jot over to Rifts was canon in any way, but it still happened in my games.

because it places the RPG on the scale. There is a difference between saying "Those events are non-canon and thus they can Never could happen" and saying "those events aren't canon, but fall completely within the realm of possibility of the Robotech Universe."
I am for the Idea of Expanding Robotech and staying true to its source. these are not diametrically opposed options. I don't look at Canon as a box that cannot be expanded, but as the foundation for which you build the expanding game universe.
Wayne Breaux developed some of my favirote designs in Robotech, these units aren't part of the current RPG, but would make their way into any extended game I would run because I think they are cool, and they add to the universe.

Ahh, I see, sorry I misinterpreted what you were saying. Although the above might give you an idea why I reacted the way I did. I probablly couldn't run a Cannonical game of Robotech if you asked me to--I littearlly can not remember what parts are and are not canon anymore. But I don't think that should stop me from playing or running Robotech games--I have a blast when I do!

[taalismn]

I'm good with the Three Laws. Really, I am.

[Lt Gargoyle]

i like the idea that I can draw on any resource to run my own game. Every player and GM need to discuss what they are expecting, background, timelines and any house rules which constantly being done with PB rule sets.

Also if I was running a Macross game I would not have a set ending, after all the players get all pissed off if they feel railroaded. which is one of the reason I do not like playing the Macross and the southern cross campaign.

[Colonel Wolfe]

i like the idea that I can draw on any resource to run my own game. Every player and GM need to discuss what they are expecting, background, timelines and any house rules which constantly being done with PB rule sets.

My idea is that any resources should be available. Canon as a foundation, a common resource that the RPG is based upon.

Also if I was running a Macross game I would not have a set ending, after all the players get all pissed off if they feel railroaded. which is one of the reason I do not like playing the Macross and the southern cross campaign.

Even if you are running a Zentradie Era game, eventually things will enter the period After their defeat and the Lull between eras, Thats where the expansion occurs. 14 years of non-story between episodes 36 and 36... Plenty of Time to quell a Zent uprising or 3, Test pilot the newest generation of Fighters, join the exploration team sent to Proxima, or Just chill and watch netflix.

[Lt Gargoyle]

i like the idea that I can draw on any resource to run my own game. Every player and GM need to discuss what they are expecting, background, timelines and any house rules which constantly being done with PB rule sets.

My idea is that any resources should be available. Canon as a foundation, a common resource that the RPG is based upon.

fair enough.

Also if I was running a Macross game I would not have a set ending, after all the players get all pissed off if they feel railroaded. which is one of the reason I do not like playing the Macross and the southern cross campaign.

Even if you are running a Zentradie Era game, eventually things will enter the period After their defeat and the Lull between eras, Thats where the expansion occurs. 14 years of non-story between episodes 36 and 36... Plenty of Time to quell a Zent uprising or 3, Test pilot the newest generation of Fighters, join the exploration team sent to Proxima, or Just chill and watch netflix.

Unless one of the PCs goes crazy takes his mecha into the reactor area of the SDF-1 and lets lose and blows the SDF-1 up. Its role playing, it could happen. Would the Zentraedi blow up earth out of vengeance or return to the masters and report that they failed in their mission.

or what if the PCs are the Zentraedi, are you not gonna let them have a chance to succeed in capturing the SDF-1?

[Jefffar]

or what if the PCs are the Zentraedi, are you not gonna let them have a chance to succeed in capturing the SDF-1?

I just got a campaign idea. . .

[Colonel Wolfe]

or what if the PCs are the Zentraedi, are you not gonna let them have a chance to succeed in capturing the SDF-1?

This is 3rd law area. Giving players aganecy to affect the universe could alter fixed plot points. There is plenty in Canon that would allow for stories to be set in this new alternate universe.
Pretty much any game where you play as the antagonists is an alternate universe setting anyway.
But even so, Canon provides sources for these setting, the Master's are still the Creators/Gods of the Zents, the Invid still exist as do the Haydonites and their Sentinels allies...

[Lt Gargoyle]

or what if the PCs are the Zentraedi, are you not gonna let them have a chance to succeed in capturing the SDF-1?

I just got a campaign idea. . .

Thats awesome, I like it when a simple idea opens up endless possibilities.

or what if the PCs are the Zentraedi, are you not gonna let them have a chance to succeed in capturing the SDF-1?

This is 3rd law area. Giving players aganecy to affect the universe could alter fixed plot points. There is plenty in Canon that would allow for stories to be set in this new alternate universe.
Pretty much any game where you play as the antagonists is an alternate universe setting anyway.
But even so, Canon provides sources for these setting, the Master's are still the Creators/Gods of the Zents, the Invid still exist as do the Haydonites and their Sentinels allies...

Ok. well I am enjoying the idea of the laws so far. how far are you wanting to go in possibilities?

[glitterboy2098]

may i suggest a revision/addition?

The Three Laws of Robotech
0) Individual group's games may violate these laws within their own campaigns, but the results of which do not overrule the following laws for the game as a whole.
1) The Primary canon is the 85 series; it is the foundation for all other productions and takes precedence in all conflicts.
2) The movies and canon comics may expand the story of Robotech, except when they create conflicts with the first law.
3) Expansion of the Robotech in the RPG should be limitless, using the first and second law as foundations, as long as these expansions do not alter the first two laws.

adding a "rule zero" to address issues of personal campaigns and homerules should help avoid further confusion. also added the "canon" distinction to comics, to separate the canon Wildstorm ones from the non-canon stuff from the old runs.

[Colonel Wolfe]

may i suggest a revision/addition?

The Three Laws of Robotech
0) Individual group's games may violate these laws within their own campaigns, but the results of which do not overrule the following laws for the game as a whole.
.

I would almost like to think this shouldn't need to be said. but it may need to be added.
The "0" rule is basically the first rule of RPG's in general.

[Lt Gargoyle]

may i suggest a revision/addition?

The Three Laws of Robotech
0) Individual group's games may violate these laws within their own campaigns, but the results of which do not overrule the following laws for the game as a whole.
.

I would almost like to think this shouldn't need to be said. but it may need to be added.
The "0" rule is basically the first rule of RPG's in general.

agreed.

[dataweaver]

My take on the matter of “canon” is this:

1. “Canon” is whatever HG deems it to be. Note that there is no requirement that HG be consistent or even logical about what counts as canon and what doesn't, or about what supersedes what. It's their IP; so when push comes to shove, what they say goes. Currently, their rule of thumb appears to be that the Shadow Chronicles movie and the Wildstorm comics supersede even the original 85 episodes where conflicts exist, with the possible exception of conflicts that arise from oversights in the movie and comics.

2. The bulk of canon still comes from the 85 OSM episodes, except where that clashes with the 2002–present material or is otherwise superseded by the IP owner's stance.

3. Everything else is speculation.

Note that the 85 episodes of the series are still the most prominant source of canon; they're just not the final word on canon — not in the Robotech Yuneverse.

If you disagree with the above, I sympathize with you; and if you, personally, want to follow Wolfe's three laws of Robotech in your games, more power to you!

[Colonel Wolfe]

1. “Canon” is whatever HG deems it to be.

Thank Goodness Tommy Yune Answered Harmony Gold's policy on how they process Canon in the Robotech.com FAQ over a decade ago.

Q: What is the definitive source of events in the Robotech universe when discrepancies arise in continuity?

- Anonymous
A: The original television series is the primary source of story continuity for the Robotech universe.... Where conflicts arise, consistency with events of the television episodes takes priority- Tommy Yune

If you disagree with the above, I sympathize with you, But Tommy is pretty clear and to that end his stance is what I based the '3 laws" off of.

Robotech Yuneverse.

or Just Robotech.

[dataweaver]

Does anyone here seriously think that Tommy intended that statement to overrule his own contributions to Robotech? When he made that statement, the context was things like the novels, the various pre-Yune comics, et al. I'll stick to my guns on this one: for the purpose of canon as Yune sees it, the stuff Yune had published takes precedence over even the original shows, despite the above assertion — though he likes to think that it's a non-issue, on the theory that he's been faithful to said shows. And for the most part, he has. Most of the changes he's introduced range from minor ones (e.g., REF or UEEF?) to subtle but with profound (and likely unintended) implications (e.g., Robotech Army vs. Expeditionary Force Marines?). Regardless, for the purpose of writing for the RPG (which AFAICT is still technically subject to review by Yune prior to publication), what ultimately matters is what Yune's vision of Robotech is, Moreso even than whether or not it's consistent with the original shows.

Acid test: propose something that’s consistent with the OSM but not with Yune's perspective of what Robotech is, and see if it gets published. That's why I speak of the Robotech Yuneverse: he's the gatekeeper, and canon is what he says it is when he reaches for the “approved” or “rejected” stamp, regardless of whether it's consistent with the original show.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Regardless, for the purpose of writing for the RPG (which AFAICT is still technically subject to review by Yune prior to publication), what ultimately matters is what Yune's vision of Robotech is, Moreso even than whether or not it's consistent with the original shows.
Acid test: propose something that’s consistent with the OSM but not with Yune's perspective of what Robotech is, and see if it gets published. That's why I speak of the Robotech Yuneverse: he's the gatekeeper, and canon is what he says it is when he reaches for the “approved” or “rejected” stamp, regardless of whether it's consistent with the original show.

we see this is factually incorrect as Harmony Gold Approved the Marines book and it is highly contradictory compared to the information Tommy wrote in his prelude comics. This book is also inconsistent with anything from the Series its self, and looks like a carbon copy of Luceno and Daley's novels plot.
That said, Tommy has been consistent that NOTHING in the RPG is canon, by the fact it is designed for use in a Role-playing environment it cannot be canon. I've asked him about this personally and he says HG considers the RPG "Official" but not "Canon", its no more canon than the Voltron Cross over comic.

[Colonel Wolfe]

"Short Circuit" adventure Hook:
Mid-2010's-
Hook: A flight of Experimental VF-6 Alpha drones are being given a trial run near the Zentradi control zone in South America. Formation is perfect and the rudimentary AI is functioning well. That is until a bolt of lightning fries one of the units sending it crashing into the rain forest below.
Line: Your team is tasked with retrieving the flight data recorder and central AI core. all before known insurgent forces or anti-UE forces get to it.
Sinker: The AI has become truly self-aware, has taken up protecting a group of tribesmen it believes were are in danger. Unable to tell UEF forces from Insurgents/Anti-UE properly, it is protecting them from both sides.

[glitterboy2098]

"Short Circuit" adventure Hook:
Mid-2010's-
Hook: A flight of Experimental VF-6 Alpha drones are being given a trial run near the Zentradi control zone in South America. Formation is perfect and the rudimentary AI is functioning well. That is until a bolt of lightning fries one of the units sending it crashing into the rain forest below.
Line: Your team is tasked with retrieving the flight data recorder and central AI core. all before known insurgent forces or anti-UE forces get to it.
Sinker: The AI has become truly self-aware, has taken up protecting a group of tribesmen it believes were are in danger. Unable to tell UEF forces from Insurgents/Anti-UE properly, it is protecting them from both sides.

suggestions:
instead of a lightning strike perhaps just have it vanish in a storm with no clear cause. (makes it less obvious where you are drawing from source wise)
Instead of outright saying it's become sapient, just have it behaving oddly when found. leave the exact cause ambiguous. (that way a Gm that does not want to open the can of worms of having full sapience AI in their setting can just claim it's following corrupted programming or something.)
you need a clear aggressor. i suggest specifying that zentreadi salvage teams are looking for it and are closing on it's last known location. (gives a clear 'badguy' and also opens up as a plothook for malcontent characters to get involved.)

also, it is unclear whether recognizable alpha's existed in the mid 2010's. in 2015 the alpha prototype looked like this; http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/ ... /vfx62.jpg
and was called the YF-6 Genia.
(according to From the Stars and the datafile issue from it)

recognizable Alpha's were probably a post-2020 thing.

i'd suggest that the Genia is an optionally manned prototype that would gradually evolve into the alpha. that the 2010's Genia's were using VF-1/early ASC era tech (SLMH fusion) and did not have protoculture power or large internal missile bays yet. (from the art, it looks to have two launch ports near the "wrists" so maybe 2-4 SRM's down there, and the legs aren't clear in the image so maybe "F-22 style" bays with room for some SRM's and/or MRM's.) as the program advanced i'd say they used it for the protoculture mecha powerplant technology development, and after it got standardized with the cell system for UEEF use, they decided to optimize it for those big SRM launcher arrays.

(actually, the Genia offers a neat potential.. taken the direction of Protoculture power and internal SRM bays, you get the alpha. but what if the ASC used a production SLMH fusion Genia right up to the late 2020's in small numbers?)it would give the TASC, TSC, and the rest of the air/space focused ASC units an alternate veritech to the Logan to use before 2030.)

[Colonel Wolfe]

I was mostly running something off the cuff, to work on moving back toward the original topic of the thread. the HLS format isn't really one that needs to have much definition. I should have made it late 10's early 20's..
I think Lang could develop rudimentary AI's from the one that programs Janice-M.

[dataweaver]

Sorry about not getting back to you sooner; I was called away to work.

Regardless, for the purpose of writing for the RPG (which AFAICT is still technically subject to review by Yune prior to publication), what ultimately matters is what Yune's vision of Robotech is, Moreso even than whether or not it's consistent with the original shows.
Acid test: propose something that’s consistent with the OSM but not with Yune's perspective of what Robotech is, and see if it gets published. That's why I speak of the Robotech Yuneverse: he's the gatekeeper, and canon is what he says it is when he reaches for the “approved” or “rejected” stamp, regardless of whether it's consistent with the original show.

we see this is factually incorrect as Harmony Gold Approved the Marines book and it is highly contradictory compared to the information Tommy wrote in his prelude comics. This book is also inconsistent with anything from the Series its self, and looks like a carbon copy of Luceno and Daley's novels plot.

To be fair then, it doesn't contradict anything I said: Yune didn't choose something compatible with the original series over something compatible with his own ideas, so it says nothing about which source of canon (the original episodes or Yune's updates) were taking precedence.

That said, Tommy has been consistent that NOTHING in the RPG is canon, by the fact it is designed for use in a Role-playing environment it cannot be canon. I've asked him about this personally and he says HG considers the RPG "Official" but not "Canon", its no more canon than the Voltron Cross over comic.

Yeah; you'll note that I wasn't discussing whether the RPG is canon — I was arguing about which source of canon we should be comparing the RPG to when determining whether it's compatible with canon.

Again, I stand by what I said earlier: Yune has the authority to supersede the original episodes in determining whether the RPG is in line with canon or not. That he apparently fell flat on his face with this supplement doesn't change that.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Discussion of the validity of the answers Tommy gave on the FAQ and how he preforms his job as creative director needs to be in a different topic, its derailed this one enough. I based the Laws off Quotes and answers given by Tommy. I don't differentiate between Robotech and the so-called "Yuneverse" as there is no difference. Tommy says the 85 episodes take precedents in conflicts, and his works have followed this idea.

[glitterboy2098]

and i'm not sure we can point to UEEF marines as anything definitive in the discussion of canon. we do not know how close of scrutiny it received by the HG creative team (if any at all). probably it was just run by their legal team to look for anything too close to stuff HG couldn't use, but i doubt lawyers pay much attention to the issues of setting continuity.

i find it most likely that UEEF marines was an unfortunate fluke.. a product of a RPG writer that didn't bother to actually research the status of the canon and current official continuity (both HG's stuff and the RPG expansions on it), which got missed in the vetting process for whatever reason.

[Lt Gargoyle]

ok so here is an adventure Idea:

there are four teams to that have to board a Zentraedi Ship, You chose, and capture it. Each team has a certain objective. One, is capture or neutralize the engine room. One is to attempt to take the bridge and then whatever other vital section the GM desire. Or have two redundant teams.

this is a simulation so the PCs are being scored, its in preperation of the pioneer mission and assumed the PCs will be fighting Zentraedi forces still gaurding the Masters Empire. And the catch is they are suppose to capture the ship, so blowing it up is not an option, as the UEEF needs the star charts and as much intel they can gather.
the Problem, the Zentraedi are running on a we rather die then be captured mentality. Each team wants to have the highest score and are in competition while working to achieve the over all goal.

[dataweaver]

Discussion of the validity of the answers Tommy gave on the FAQ and how he preforms his job as creative director needs to be in a different topic, its derailed this one enough. I based the Laws off Quotes and answers given by Tommy. I don't differentiate between Robotech and the so-called "Yuneverse" as there is no difference. Tommy says the 85 episodes take precedents in conflicts, and his works have followed this idea.

with all due respect, you're saying that it's a thread derailment to challenge the order of the rules in the first post? Because that's essentially what I'm doing.

The only way there's no difference is if the stuff that Tommy has come up with — the Wildstorm comics and the Shadow Chronicles movie — is 100% compatible with the original 85 episodes. But if it is 100% compatible, then making a distinction about which is more fundamental is a moot point: if they never clash, then there's no point in having the second law include the clause about what to do if they clash.

If they do clash, my contention is that the Second Law wins out over the First, not the other way around.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Discussion of the validity of the answers Tommy gave on the FAQ and how he preforms his job as creative director needs to be in a different topic, its derailed this one enough. I based the Laws off Quotes and answers given by Tommy. I don't differentiate between Robotech and the so-called "Yuneverse" as there is no difference. Tommy says the 85 episodes take precedents in conflicts, and his works have followed this idea.

with all due respect, you're saying that it's a thread derailment to challenge the order of the rules in the first post? Because that's essentially what I'm doing.

Inferring that Tommy's answer on the FAQ is untruthful has no place in this discussion. Tommy and Hg are Buisness partners of Harmony Gold and inferring that he is dishonest is a rules violation. I have supplied the basis for the "laws", Tommy's answers in the FAQ. The Base 85 is what the creative director for Harmony Gold says is the source and defacto canon... I'm only agreeing with him.

The only way there's no difference is if the stuff that Tommy has come up with — the Wildstorm comics and the Shadow Chronicles movie — is 100% compatible with the original 85 episodes. But if it is 100% compatible, then making a distinction about which is more fundamental is a moot point: if they never clash, then there's no point in having the second law include the clause about what to do if they clash.

If they do clash, my contention is that the Second Law wins out over the First, not the other way around.

Because during productions mistake are made, the End of LLA is a direct contradiction to the Events in the beginning of TSC, both are creations by Mr. Yune, and its easy to defer to the base-85 that the events detailed in TSC is more valid than the one in LLA as TSC has direct elements from SoL in its story.

[Kagashi]

The Three Laws of Robotech
1) The Primary canon is the 85 series; it is the foundation for all other productions and takes precedence in all conflicts. {per Harmony Gold}
2) The movies and comics may expand the story of Robotech, except when they create conflicts with the first law.
3) Expansion of the Robotech in the RPG should be limitless, using the first and second law as foundations, as long as these expansions do not alter the first two laws.

...

New Mecha designs:
While I don’t like the Designs present in the new marines book for the previously detailed REF Destroids, but the existence of the designs as other units (namely as the Marine’s versions of the old RDF Destroids in the early REF era, with the original designs existing as Later era units) would be no problem under this method. You could also re-add the extra designs presented in Strike Force, Return of the Masters, or any homebrew design you like. Competing Military contractors would develop and design many design test beds. Colonies, once established, could adopt self-defense designs they manufacture themselves that are not the set designs. Other Governments on Earth prior to the Master’s assault could have also designed and fielded mecha unique to their own forces; we know this is possible from the fact the US-Army was seen using Destroid designs in the Zentradie-Era.

This means that LLA confirms Betas in 2031 (as attached to Alphas in a fly over as Dana boards the Garfish) as well as the MAC III design from Sentinels providing covering fire as she boards and the presence of the Tiger destroid (Wildstorm comic depicting the same events animated in LLA of the 15th evacuating Earth) standing watch as hovertanks load onto the Garfish. The Monster design presented in Marines is a completely different RPG specific mecha than the "MAC III" (or whatever the Yuneiverse calls that mecha) which is Robotech cannon. Now it's Palladium's responsibility to incorporate these elements into their own additions and make it all make sense within the RPG.

Setting:
I was never a fan of the EBSIS, it is a bit dated and overtly hokey. The cash-in on the cold-war mentality it established and the Snidely Whiplash evil it invoked needs to go. The idea of other nation-states existing alongside and as member states of the United Earth Government. This adds so many more levels to the setting to explore. Robotech its self is so focused on the events surrounding a small group of characters that the world as a whole is left almost completely open to expansion that follow the 3 laws. You could combine these nations with the colonial expansion idea, and you could have a Pac-Asian colony founded by a government that rules that region of the planet (think Sid Meier’s Beyond-Earth).

I concur. The idea of the EBSIS is outdated and very 80s...then again...so is the very idea of Robotech where there are still active record stores and physical arcades in existence in 2031 as seen when Scott and company happen across Denver. Heck, with the modern smart phone, the internet, and digital media, those aspects should have been wiped from our culture completely. It is difficult to find a store that actually sells physical CDs anymore IRL 2015, let alone records. Even places like Best Buy are shrinking their floorspace dedicated to physical media and increasing their footprint of devices capable of playing digital media. Therefore, the idea of eastern Europeans deciding that the old Soviet Empire was a good idea again does not sound all that far fetched to me when you put yourself into an 80s mindset.

I personally use the EBSIS, York, and the Merchant Republic as three named independent kingdoms in the 2014 -2029/2030 time period should I run an Earth based game of that time. I wish we had better stats for conventional tanks like the Dark Knight, Tornado, and Anaconda/Highlander all of which see a few frames of animation or still shot montages in the show. I would use them as the main weapons to counter more sophisticated mecha designs of the UEG.

I also use the 1st Edition EBSIS destroids (and the Merchant Republic design in MOP) as stolen ASC designs, reverse engineered by a lower tech level (I do increase the MDC 50%) and assumed the designs were going to be large mecha like UEDF destroids. This explains their more conventional weaponry, basic energy weapon designs, and lower than expected MDC when compared to ASC and UEEF mecha. I also use the Lancer's Rockers conventional battle bikes and assault vehicles to round out their arsenal.

I used to view these entities as more "bad guys" to throw at the players so I had more than just Bioroids or Invid to keep the game interesting, however as I grew in life and obtained a more Libertarian point of view, I see these guys are not necessarily bad, some of these nations may simply not agree with a single world wide government. Id love to run a campaign where the players were not part of the UEG and were something different than typical freedom fighters.

However, just because I use them as more setting in the RPG, I do not expect to see them in the next issue of a Yuneiverse comic or animation (should either ever be published in the next 15 years...)

[Kagashi]

or what if the PCs are the Zentraedi, are you not gonna let them have a chance to succeed in capturing the SDF-1?

I just got a campaign idea. . .

I love non-UEG based campaigns. I would certainly allow this Zentraedi group the chance to succeed in their mission and not be railroaded into certain failure just because Episode 36 has to happen.

Then again, my games are not Robotech canon.

[Chronicler]

I concur. The idea of the EBSIS is outdated and very 80s...then again...so is the very idea of Robotech where there are still active record stores and physical arcades in existence in 2031 as seen when Scott and company happen across Denver. Heck, with the modern smart phone, the internet, and digital media, those aspects should have been wiped from our culture completely. It is difficult to find a store that actually sells physical CDs anymore IRL 2015, let alone records. Even places like Best Buy are shrinking their floorspace dedicated to physical media and increasing their footprint of devices capable of playing digital media. Therefore, the idea of eastern Europeans deciding that the old Soviet Empire was a good idea again does not sound all that far fetched to me when you put yourself into an 80s mindset.

This is one of the reasons why I started my little fan project (which is an on again off again thing, mostly due to things happening on my end). Of course this is a fanon thing which would never fit with the three laws unless Tommy Yune would scrap everything and start over with new animation (chances of that are 1 in a billion).

[dataweaver]

Discussion of the validity of the answers Tommy gave on the FAQ and how he performs his job as creative director needs to be in a different topic, its derailed this one enough. I based the Laws off Quotes and answers given by Tommy. I don't differentiate between Robotech and the so-called "Yuneverse" as there is no difference. Tommy says the 85 episodes take precedents in conflicts, and his works have followed this idea.

with all due respect, you're saying that it's a thread derailment to challenge the order of the rules in the first post? Because that's essentially what I'm doing.

Inferring that Tommy's answer on the FAQ is untruthful has no place in this discussion. Tommy and Hg are Buisness partners of Harmony Gold and inferring that he is dishonest is a rules violation. I have supplied the basis for the "laws", Tommy's answers in the FAQ. The Base 85 is what the creative director for Harmony Gold says is the source and defacto canon... I'm only agreeing with him.

This has nothing to do with Tommy's truthfulness, nor is it in any way a question about his character; so no, I'm nowhere close to violating the forum rules. Rather, it's fundamentally about his authority: he's the guy in charge of the Robotech IP; so what he says goes — and what he says very much includes everything Robotech-related that HG has produced since he took the reins, not merely a single answer in a FAQ. More to the point, what he says in a FAQ does not trump what he says in From the Stars, Love and War, Invasion, Prelude to Shadow Chronicles, Shadow Chronicles, or Love, Live, Alive.

The only way there's no difference is if the stuff that Tommy has come up with — the Wildstorm comics and the Shadow Chronicles movie — is 100% compatible with the original 85 episodes. But if it is 100% compatible, then making a distinction about which is more fundamental is a moot point: if they never clash, then there's no point in having the second law include the clause about what to do if they clash.

If they do clash, my contention is that the Second Law wins out over the First, not the other way around.

Because during productions mistake are made, the End of LLA is a direct contradiction to the Events in the beginning of TSC, both are creations by Mr. Yune, and its easy to defer to the base-85 that the events detailed in TSC is more valid than the one in LLA as TSC has direct elements from SoL in its story.

LLA and TSC do not contradict each other. At first glance, there's a paradox; but it's remarkably easy to resolve. Simply put, Lancer's concert in LLA and his reunion with the New Generation crew takes place after the events of TSC. Apparently, before the Ark Angel left on its rescue mission, Scott and Ariel returned to Earth to recruit their friends. Rook, Rand, Lunk, and Mint signed up; and LLA shows them making their pitch to Lancer.

Of more significant note is that TSC rewrote Scott and Ariel's farewell from the end of #85. This is an (admittedly subtle) instance where Yune's material takes precedence over the original animation.

[Kagashi]

Thought about this a bit more at work. If the original 85 episodes are more canon than the comics and the movies, why retcon anything at all? For example, in order for tSC to work, the Regiss had to have a modified conversation from the one in the last episode with Ariel before her departure. If the 85 episodes trump the retcons, the story does not make sense.

Either the Regiss had a conversation as per Episode 85, with Sara, Lunk, Lancer, Annie, Rand, Rook, and Scott present where she casually mentions the "Children of the Shadow" as some obscure reference and refers to humans as being "Disciples of Zor" to Ariel, then leaves;

or

She has a conversation with only Scott and Ariel present, can somehow view UEEF mecha which she supposedly cannot detect, then refers to the technology as a product of the Children of the Shadow (clearly a reference to Haydonites) then leaves.

OR, they both happen. Scott sees Ariel in energy form and follows her into the hive, the rest of the gang follows. The Regiss has a conversation with the group, they go kill Corg and disable Shadow Drones, then Ariel also leaves the hive and floats around the battlefield while Scott continues to kill random Invid (not even taking to heart the unity of the two races he JUST talked about), sees Ariel in energy form (again) and follows her back into the hive. Then they have 85% the same conversation (because the Regiss likes to just repeat herself? or Ariel just doesnt get what they talked about before? She does come across aloof and dense at times.), and finally, the Regiss leaves, destroying the Neutron S missiles and sparing the SDF4.

Regardless, one of these has to win over the others, and the third scenario just does not make sense at all. That leaves Episode 85 or tSC movie. If Episode 85 is the true canon, the rest of tSC movie simply does not make sense. So why bother retconning? Why not just write an entirely different movie that takes the 85 episodes as 100% setting?

Likewise, although the Sentinels story line for the most part has been clearly moved to secondary canon by Yune, elements of it are still primary canon; for example, the fact that the Regent has command of living Invid with him and depicted in Prelude. This is in contradiction to the statement “The Invid Regiss, the supreme ruler of a race of alien parasites, sends her entire civilization on a crusade to locate and harvest the fruit of their flowers of life.” If the entire Invid civilization was sent to Earth, how did the Regent have Invid with him on Tirol and Opteria? Unless that statement is solely in reference to the Invid she commanded, excluding anything under the command of the Regent, Prelude cannot make sense if the original 85 Episodes are 100% canon over the Wildstorm comics which directly leads into The Shadow Chronicles movie.

I'm really thinking the Wildstorm Comics, Shadow Chronicles, LLA, and The Art of the Shadow Chronicles should be considered primary canon and where the show contradicts them, the primary canon wins.

[Jefffar]

Of more significant note is that TSC rewrote Scott and Ariel's farewell from the end of #85. This is an (admittedly subtle) instance where Yune's material takes precedence over the original animation.

Except that the creator of the TSC saying that the original version takes precedence over his own creation.

I think there is a fine point of debate here that is really not worthy of discussion.

One side indicates that the current creative director of Robotech has assigned an order of primacy of sources that places the original 85 episodes.

The other side indicates the current creative director of Robotech has the authority to decide the order of primacy of sources.

There is no actual disagreement between those points and no need to continue to go around on them.

How about instead we look at, within the framework established by the creative director of Robotech, what is and isn't available for adaptation into the RPG and what space there is for new creations within the RPG?

[glitterboy2098]

it is also worth pointing out that this is not a binary set. it doesn't have to be either or. the end result can be a blending of the two. the two cases of Marlene doing the spirit thing to summon scott are supposed to be the same thing.. we just don't see the rest of the team in shadow chronicles because they aren't a focus char for the scenes. and it's noteworthy that the shadow chronicles scenes would very easily fit into the "cut aways" during the show (where it switched to showing something else for a bit), allowing the extra dialog to exist side by side.

likewise the bit with the regent does not actually clash with the "crusade" dialog.. the regent was also on a crusade to locate and harvest FOL.. he was just doing it in a different place. the idea that he started on that path as a result of something the regis decreed, only to create a split over how to go about it.. that's well within the grey area of the show dialog and canon.

Continuity is best approached like historical research. tiers of canon are like primary vs secondary sources. a primary source ranks higher than a secondary source, but secondary sources often provide broader context or additional info. very rarely do the two outright contradict each other, though they often differ in detail. by examining it as a whole though you get a better picture, as the truth tends to end up somewhere in between.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Salvaging the Marines:
While I disagree with the existence of the Marines in Robotech, at least with the idea of making them the main fighting force of the REF, We now have the REF Marines book by Irvine Jackson.
not the best robotech book by most subjective views... it has elements that can be used to expand the universe. The New Destroid Designs, the new IMIA File units can have a place in the sand box.
The Destorids: RSCF has brought up the Idea that these are a separate design series from the Original REf Destroids. These being the direct successors to the Zentradi era designs. Sharing a designascetic aesthetic as the Alpha These would be deployed during the early REF mission, see combat or Colony patrol in that era. The Classic REF designs would become a Later Generation that saw use by the late 2020's (per LLA).
This would Give the "Marines" a unique set of Mecha to call their own.

This leads to the problem over the New Battleopds and the old ones...
As I see the REF was using the old designs in simulators, I wonder if these could be re-purposed into enemy mecha and replaced by the ones designed by Premiere?