Whats up with the deep south rifts books?

Bood Samel · Unread post by **Bood Samel** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:08 am

Are these books still coming out? Are some and not others? I was really into the idea of them so far.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:54 am

They're not listed in the newest rifter as coming out on 2015, nor any blurbs about them.

The Galactus Kid · Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:38 am

I have no idea. I've been waiting for them for a while and I think they would be great additions. Josh Sinsapaugh is a fantastic writer and i can't wait to see more of his work. I would love to see Palladium get thgouh some of the RIFTS backlog in 2105 since it's the 30th anniversary of the game. I know that there are a number of books for other game lines in the queue as well, but I want to make sure that Palladium doesn't miss this opportunity.

ffranceschi · Unread post by **ffranceschi** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:30 am

The Galactus Kid wrote:I have no idea. I've been waiting for them for a while and I think they would be great additions. Josh Sinsapaugh is a fantastic writer and i can't wait to see more of his work. I would love to see Palladium get thgouh some of the RIFTS backlog in 2105 since it's the 30th anniversary of the game. I know that there are a number of books for other game lines in the queue as well, but I want to make sure that Palladium doesn't miss this opportunity.

25th anniversary (1990) but I agree with you in all the rest

The Galactus Kid · Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:55 am

ffranceschi wrote:
The Galactus Kid wrote:I have no idea. I've been waiting for them for a while and I think they would be great additions. Josh Sinsapaugh is a fantastic writer and i can't wait to see more of his work. I would love to see Palladium get thgouh some of the RIFTS backlog in 2105 since it's the 30th anniversary of the game. I know that there are a number of books for other game lines in the queue as well, but I want to make sure that Palladium doesn't miss this opportunity.

25th anniversary (1990) but I agree with you in all the rest

Right. Math fail.

Marcus · Unread post by **Marcus** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:35 am

The Galactus Kid wrote:I have no idea. I've been waiting for them for a while and I think they would be great additions. Josh Sinsapaugh is a fantastic writer and i can't wait to see more of his work. I would love to see Palladium get thgouh some of the RIFTS backlog in 2105 since it's the 30th anniversary of the game. I know that there are a number of books for other game lines in the queue as well, but I want to make sure that Palladium doesn't miss this opportunity.

Not missing the opportunity would be completely unfair to PFRPG though.

The Galactus Kid · Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:46 pm

Marcus wrote:
The Galactus Kid wrote:I have no idea. I've been waiting for them for a while and I think they would be great additions. Josh Sinsapaugh is a fantastic writer and i can't wait to see more of his work. I would love to see Palladium get thgouh some of the RIFTS backlog in 2105 since it's the 30th anniversary of the game. I know that there are a number of books for other game lines in the queue as well, but I want to make sure that Palladium doesn't miss this opportunity.

Not missing the opportunity would be completely unfair to PFRPG though.

Ideally, there would be other books scattered throughout.

Marcus · Unread post by **Marcus** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:27 pm

The Galactus Kid wrote:
Marcus wrote:
The Galactus Kid wrote:I have no idea. I've been waiting for them for a while and I think they would be great additions. Josh Sinsapaugh is a fantastic writer and i can't wait to see more of his work. I would love to see Palladium get thgouh some of the RIFTS backlog in 2105 since it's the 30th anniversary of the game. I know that there are a number of books for other game lines in the queue as well, but I want to make sure that Palladium doesn't miss this opportunity.

Not missing the opportunity would be completely unfair to PFRPG though.

Ideally, there would be other books scattered throughout.

Not what I meant.

Bood Samel · Unread post by **Bood Samel** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:31 am

Are these books finished being written and are just sitting in development hell? Or some other reason? What is the deal with the deal? I know palladium has a history of unreleased books that were mentioned over the years, can they ever legally be released in a pdf ?

The Galactus Kid · Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:42 pm

Bood Samel wrote:Are these books finished being written and are just sitting in development hell? Or some other reason? What is the deal with the deal? I know palladium has a history of unreleased books that were mentioned over the years, can they ever legally be released in a pdf ?

Palladium can release whatever they want in whatever format they want. The authors cannot do so once the manuscripts are in house since they are submitted manuscripts and Palladium owns the system the material is derived from. Potentially, the writers could remove a manuscript from consideration if they don't receive payment, but once payment is received or a manuscript goes to print, Palladium contractually owns the material.

Josh Hilden · Unread post by **Josh Hilden** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:52 pm

The Galactus Kid wrote:
Bood Samel wrote:Are these books finished being written and are just sitting in development hell? Or some other reason? What is the deal with the deal? I know palladium has a history of unreleased books that were mentioned over the years, can they ever legally be released in a pdf ?

Palladium can release whatever they want in whatever format they want. The authors cannot do so once the manuscripts are in house since they are submitted manuscripts and Palladium owns the system the material is derived from. Potentially, the writers could remove a manuscript from consideration if they don't receive payment, but once payment is received or a manuscript goes to print, Palladium contractually owns the material.

And that is more or less standard in the industry as a whole.

The Galactus Kid · Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:44 am

Josh Hilden wrote:
The Galactus Kid wrote:
Bood Samel wrote:Are these books finished being written and are just sitting in development hell? Or some other reason? What is the deal with the deal? I know palladium has a history of unreleased books that were mentioned over the years, can they ever legally be released in a pdf ?

Palladium can release whatever they want in whatever format they want. The authors cannot do so once the manuscripts are in house since they are submitted manuscripts and Palladium owns the system the material is derived from. Potentially, the writers could remove a manuscript from consideration if they don't receive payment, but once payment is received or a manuscript goes to print, Palladium contractually owns the material.

And that is more or less standard in the industry as a whole.

From my experience as well.

Dunia · Unread post by **Dunia** » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:49 am

Pepsi Jedi wrote:They're not listed in the newest rifter as coming out on 2015, nor any blurbs about them.

What books are mentioned, if I may ask?

The Galactus Kid · Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:29 am

Pepsi Jedi wrote:They're not listed in the newest rifter as coming out on 2015, nor any blurbs about them.

Neither was Sovietski from what I can tell, so I don't think that is an exhaustive list.

kaid · Unread post by **kaid** » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:10 am

Honestly I would prefer if they play their cards a bit closer to the vest when it comes to announcing books that are not near term prospects for finishing. They get into less trouble that way.

Sureshot · Unread post by **Sureshot** » Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:40 pm

kaid wrote:Honestly I would prefer if they play their cards a bit closer to the vest when it comes to announcing books that are not near term prospects for finishing. They get into less trouble that way.

Trust me we have asked over and over again. Only to be repeatedly ignored.

Bood Samel · Unread post by **Bood Samel** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:09 am

Ok so we know palladium has a stack of manuscripts going back decades now and that according to posters here that have worked for palladium, palladium owns them. Why not release some of these as PDFs, even as text only PDFs, just to test the waters on them? Or just to get them out the way. Like that rifts: Antarctica that Gaius turned in years ago. Or these deep south books?

Josh Hilden · Unread post by **Josh Hilden** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:13 am

The editorial bottleneck, and no I'm not bashing that's just one of the primary reasons.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:01 pm

Dunia wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:They're not listed in the newest rifter as coming out on 2015, nor any blurbs about them.

What books are mentioned, if I may ask?

Leaving out RTT as they're not rpg books, this is the list.

Robotech Expeditionary Force Marines Sourcebook One
Rifts Chaos Earth: First Responders
Rifts Chaos Earth: Resurrection
Rifts Coalition States: Heroes of Humanity
Rifts The Disavowed
Rifts Secrets of the Atlanteans
Rifts Additional World Books and Source books
Beyond the Supernatural Beyond Arcanum
Beyond the Supernatural Tomes Grotesque
Dead Reign Hell Followed
Palladium Fantasy Sourcebooks
Splicers Sourcebooks (Tentative)
Heroes Unlimited Sourcebooks (Tenative)
And some BIG Announcements that should shake up the Palladium Megaverse

Now, even with out touching 'Rifts Additional World books and Sourcebooks" or "Palladium fantasy Sourcebooks" That's 9 titles. For the past few years, Palladium has only been able to produce 4 or 5 books a year tops. It's also not listing the Palladium Fantasy title which is next up in line, so one could count that as 10 titles already promised.

How many will they put out? Your guess is as good as mine. If some of those are tiny little splat books like Graveyard earth, they could produce more. I don't think they can get out a book every 6 weeks or so. I wish it were so. I just don't expect it to happen that fast. __IF__ Some of the books are little 64 page splats, or even 96 page splats, we might see 6 books. Some of those they've had for quite some time. The two BTS books for example might be rapidly deployed, once they're finally up in the roster. We don't know.

Personally. I'd expect 4 to 6 on the top end. I think we'll get the Palladium one, the Robotech one, the Heroes of Humanity one, and maybe one or two others.

Alpha 11 · Unread post by **Alpha 11** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:08 am

Before the big crisis, I believe there were a few years that they got out several more then just 4 books a year. I remember someone doing a list up here on the boards, and several years had like 6+ books that came out, if I remember right. But after the crisis, things have slowed down a lot it seems. Again, if I remember right.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:26 am

Yeah, back in the 90s they did a bit, but it's been a long time since they've bested 4 or 5 a year. It's not impossible, but the best indicator for future behavior is past behavior. For the past 5+ years, they've been doing around 4 per

The Beast · Unread post by **The Beast** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:50 am

Alpha 11 wrote:Before the big crisis, I believe there were a few years that they got out several more then just 4 books a year. I remember someone doing a list up here on the boards, and several years had like 6+ books that came out, if I remember right. But after the crisis, things have slowed down a lot it seems. Again, if I remember right.

That would be me.

I had two related posts on the subject.

It's not very accurate though. It's based off of what books I owned at the time I compiled the list.

kaid · Unread post by **kaid** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:59 pm

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Yeah, back in the 90s they did a bit, but it's been a long time since they've bested 4 or 5 a year. It's not impossible, but the best indicator for future behavior is past behavior. For the past 5+ years, they've been doing around 4 per

Although to play devils advocate they also have 4 rifters a year which are easily equal in size to many source books.

I will say this their quality of books and the subject matter in them has been really good over the last couple years and books like NG1 and NG2 are up there with the best books they ever made. So if we only get 4-5 books a year make them the best damn 4-5 books they can be.

Jason Richards · Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:27 am

Rifts Chaos Earth: First Responders
Boom. All that matters.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:59 am

kaid wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Yeah, back in the 90s they did a bit, but it's been a long time since they've bested 4 or 5 a year. It's not impossible, but the best indicator for future behavior is past behavior. For the past 5+ years, they've been doing around 4 per

Although to play devils advocate they also have 4 rifters a year which are easily equal in size to many source books.

I will say this their quality of books and the subject matter in them has been really good over the last couple years and books like NG1 and NG2 are up there with the best books they ever made. So if we only get 4-5 books a year make them the best damn 4-5 books they can be.

I do not count the rifters as "book" releases. They're fan mags. The majority of the included articles are non official fan creation. And while they come in at 90+ pages, much of that is spent on in house advertising and what not. The first 25 pages of the current one, is such.

Don't get me wrong. I have a subscription. I have for years. I can usually find something of use per issue. Datamining and what not, but I don't consider fan submission, "published books". I like the rifter, often very much, but it doesn't 'count' to me as a "new Published book". It's in house advertising and fan submission.

Nor do I count, when they restock the werehouse with books they produced, 5.. 10+ years ago, as a new release. That's just managing stock.

kaid · Unread post by **kaid** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:48 pm

I agree that rifters are fan mags but it still takes a lot of work and time to pull them together and get them laid out and printed so they are a non trivial amount of effort. I think to really see more than 5 or mainline books come out in a year it would probably be necessary for a second person able to take if not full charge at least a lot of it. One common thing that happens after a company gets back stabbed like palladium did is it can lead to some over protection and bottlenecking of production where everything has to go through one or two people and if those people are busy progress stops.

One reason the rifters seem to get out "mostly" on schedule is it seems like they have others doing most of the heavy lifting and don't force kevin to have to be as hands on as it appears he is with other things. One man can only edit/write/do so much at one time no matter how long/hard he works.

One possible way forward to get more product out would be to do kinda what they are doing with rifters for smaller sourcebook/adventure books and go through the normal process for the real big ticket items for the year.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:26 pm

Well that's the thing. They don't 'Make' (most of)the content of the rifters. They have fans send it in to be published. Thus they're 'not' alot of work. Editing and lay out isn't that difficult for 50 or so pages of book. Is it 'trivial'? No. Not 'trivial' but it's not like it's months and months of hard work. Layout can be done in hours to a day or two. It's all digital these days. Art work is asigned and all but the art for the rifter is not always the same quality as their books. (Sometimes it is. It just depends).

It is what it is. A fan mag. Palladium doesn't write most of it. a fourth of it is ads. The rest is usually non canon, non sanctioned fan creation, which at most needs to be edited for space.

This may sound like I'm being harsh about the rifter. I'm really not. I'm just not elevating it to the status of a full published book of the line. I like it very much for what it is. I've had a subscription for years.

I'm not going to touch the company's reactions 10 years down the line to an event that happened. That line of commentary starts fights and gets people in trouble.

As for the smaller books thing... eh... yeah that'd get more books out per year, but again. I'd rather real books vs 64 page splats. I was dissapointed in the last one (Graveyard Earth)

Bood Samel · Unread post by **Bood Samel** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:34 am

Why don't some of the manuscripts that definitely aren't going to be released (like that antarctica book) get printer in the rifter if there is no one to make PDFs out of them?

Lord_Dalgard · Unread post by **Lord_Dalgard** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:28 pm

Pepsi Jedi wrote:. Layout can be done in hours to a day or two. It's all digital these days.

Last I checked (which has been 3-4 years I will admit), Kevin was still laying everything out physically by hand.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:31 pm

Lord_Dalgard wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:. Layout can be done in hours to a day or two. It's all digital these days.

Last I checked (which has been 3-4 years I will admit), Kevin was still laying everything out physically by hand.

Naa they switched some time ago. It was a long -long- time after most companies switched, but they did switch over. it's been a while. 5- 10 years? A bit more?

*Chuckles* Some of us have been fans for decades so it sort of blurs together, but yeah, Palladium went digital in lay out a while back.

Josh Hilden · Unread post by **Josh Hilden** » Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:35 pm

I know it was after the move to the new warehouse and that was in 2008.

Josh Sinsapaugh · Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:56 pm

Bood Samel wrote:Are these books finished being written and are just sitting in development hell? Or some other reason? What is the deal with the deal? I know palladium has a history of unreleased books that were mentioned over the years, can they ever legally be released in a pdf ?

John Philpott and I finished Delta Blues in 2005 (the manuscript that makes up Delta Blues, Dark Woods, and Voodoo. Kevin has had me polish up Delta Blues after one of the Open Houses, and it may need more polishing up to align things to post-Minion War Rifts Earth.

I'm currently working on another world book/sourcebook. Philpott still writes as well, though I don't believe any of his recent work has been RPG related (I might be wrong).

As for what the fate of the Deep South books are? All I know is that they are mentioned in the 1/11/2015 press release. I personally hope they see the light of day, but that's just personal bias.

~ Josh

Lord_Dalgard · Unread post by **Lord_Dalgard** » Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:36 pm

Darn, you're right. It was the old warehouse, so that had to be 2007...8 years?!! Where does time go?

Jason Richards · Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:39 pm

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Editing and lay out isn't that difficult for 50 or so pages of book. Is it 'trivial'? No. Not 'trivial' but it's not like it's months and months of hard work. Layout can be done in hours to a day or two. It's all digital these days.

You are seriously underestimating the amount of work that it takes to digitally lay out a book. Seriously, seriously underestimating. I'l agree that it's not months and months, but it is a massive undertaking that requires a lot of skill and time. It certainly cannot be done in "hours" or even "a day or two" unless you're talking about two VERY long days where everything goes perfectly. Playing it off like it's some sort of minor task is extremely condescending.

Josh Hilden · Unread post by **Josh Hilden** » Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:57 pm

To be fair it also has a lot to do with if you use templates or are building the layout from scratch, How many layers you are building, what program you're using, and how much experience you have doing it.

Still it's NEVER a quick click and done process.

Spinachcat · Unread post by **Spinachcat** » Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:06 pm

I am looking forward to Delta Blues, but just like good BBQ, apparently these books need slow cooking.

Bood Samel wrote:I know palladium has a history of unreleased books that were mentioned over the years, can they ever legally be released in a pdf ?

This is where Kickstarter can be very useful.

If PB has a near-finished manuscript, they could launch a KS to see if there is enough interest to justify the release. The main bonus for the backers would be the PDF of the "rough draft" of the manuscript while PB is taking the time to have the final draft edited and polished, art approved and laid out. The backers meanwhile could comment / playtest the rough draft and interact with the author so the final product is even better.

Kickstarter could really be used as powerful pre-order / advertising / playtest mechanism for Palladium.

Pepsi Jedi · Unread post by **Pepsi Jedi** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:02 am

Jason Richards wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:Editing and lay out isn't that difficult for 50 or so pages of book. Is it 'trivial'? No. Not 'trivial' but it's not like it's months and months of hard work. Layout can be done in hours to a day or two. It's all digital these days.

You are seriously underestimating the amount of work that it takes to digitally lay out a book. Seriously, seriously underestimating. I'l agree that it's not months and months, but it is a massive undertaking that requires a lot of skill and time. It certainly cannot be done in "hours" or even "a day or two" unless you're talking about two VERY long days where everything goes perfectly. Playing it off like it's some sort of minor task is extremely condescending.

I'm really not. You have a layout. You plug the parts you have into it. Palladium art isn't bled through or shaped to the page like many other RPG's. It's 2 column format with quarter, half or full page art inter-spaced. You go through. You put the text that's already typed up into the format. Then you go through and add in your artwork in that quarter, half or full page sections. When that's done you move a bit here or there. Move your chapter headers if any and what not. Then you're done.

You're making it out like they're typing the book. It's really plug and go. A bit of modification now and then so there's not awkward page breaks or information breaks. As I pointed out, it's not like Palladium gets oddly shaped art and has to format the pages around it, or puts it in the center with text formatted around it in an oval or void.

It's... 2 column format for what 97-98% of their books with the art sized and dropped in? You really -can- do it in a few hours. And they've been using the same format since the early 80s. They're pretty used to it by now. They HAVE to have a simple template they use for it. It's on the computer these days. It's not like you have to start from scratch, every time.

Am I saying "It's not work" No. It's work. But you're sitting at a computer copy and pasting text, and dragging art into the proper position. It's not rocket science either. Their format has remained unchanged for 30 years, and, it shows when you look at the books. Their layout for these books is NOT complex in the least. (That's not saying it's bad. Sometimes simple is good. A burger with cheese on a bun. Is good. But it's not 'COMPLEX' or 'HARD')

Myrrhibis · Unread post by **Myrrhibis** » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:28 pm

Main issue: All editing, other than the Rifter, goes through Kevin. *all of it*.

Many of us fans firmly believe that the only reason the Rifter is more or less on time, and has been since like the 2nd year of production, is exactly because it's NOT on Kevin's plate.

IMHO, that's very telling that a series of books has consistently come out 'on time' for years, and has one piece of assembly that is majorly different than the rest (editor).

the Kickstarter idea I don't think will work, as Kevin & PB has an (IMO) unhealthy fear of piracy. In the KS scenario proposed above, I think it'd be valid concern as it's work that hasn't even come out yet, vs the argument for PDFs once/shortly after a book has been released in hard copy (and has historically been shown to already be out there on pirate sites).

Bood Samel · Unread post by **Bood Samel** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:57 pm

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:
Bood Samel wrote:Are these books finished being written and are just sitting in development hell? Or some other reason? What is the deal with the deal? I know palladium has a history of unreleased books that were mentioned over the years, can they ever legally be released in a pdf ?

John Philpott and I finished Delta Blues in 2005 (the manuscript that makes up Delta Blues, Dark Woods, and Voodoo. Kevin has had me polish up Delta Blues after one of the Open Houses, and it may need more polishing up to align things to post-Minion War Rifts Earth.

I'm currently working on another world book/sourcebook. Philpott still writes as well, though I don't believe any of his recent work has been RPG related (I might be wrong).

As for what the fate of the Deep South books are? All I know is that they are mentioned in the 1/11/2015 press release. I personally hope they see the light of day, but that's just personal bias.

~ Josh

I understand the need for re-writes, editing, etc but damn sitting on these books for 10 YEARS? Let me guess, you don't get paid unless they get made huh? Not knocking anybody for that btw, but damn writing a book and having it sit for that long has to drive one nuts.

Well again I these books sound awesome and I hope they come out. I love all the side line low powered north america stuff that has come out.

Tiree · Unread post by **Tiree** » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:56 pm

Bood Samel wrote:I understand the need for re-writes, editing, etc but damn sitting on these books for 10 YEARS? Let me guess, you don't get paid unless they get made huh? Not knocking anybody for that btw, but damn writing a book and having it sit for that long has to drive one nuts.

From what I understand, the bolded part is accurate. Also with the agreement, whatever you send in is the property of Palladium Books, and therefore you don't own anymore. I'm not sure how that works for not printed material, but that's rough IMO. Especially if the concept is fairly universal.

Josh Sinsapaugh · Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:12 am

To be fair, it hasn't been 10 years of editting, just stuff in the pipe ahead of it (including newer projects that understandably jumped the line as they were guaranteed to be a hit - Northern Gun, for example).

~ Josh