The other problems with credits (and alignments)

[Kelorin]

I’ve been going over all of my Rifts books for the couple of weeks and have noticed a number of ‘issues’ and inconsistencies with the use of credits and money in Rifts.

One:
No unified global communications or data networks (except for financial transactions). From the essay “The Trouble with Credits” in Rifts: New West, we are told that the Coalition States (CS) represents 73% of all trade on the continent, that universal credits can be used just about anywhere in North America or the NGR. Doesn’t this mean that the CS is fully aware of the existence of the Sovietski and other NGR trade partners? What happens if the NGR starts trading with Japan, Australia and the New Navy? What happens if the CS starts trading with Columbia?

Two:
The Black Market credit can be used at “virtually all Black Market operations scattered throughout the world”. Really? Doesn’t that make the Black Market credit the de facto world currency of Rifts Earth? Where does the Black Market keep and maintain the servers and hardlines (can’t use satellites) that process all these global transactions? Do they also have a secret stock market somewhere that trades in global currencies too?

Three:
Can I get that in trade? What form of currency can a good aligned D-bee leyline walker or cyberknight opposed to the Coalition use? If you see the CS and its allies as evil, can you in even use Coalition or NGMI (CS ally) credits? The only other widely accepted alternative credit based currency in North America belongs to the Black Market. From the Alignment section of any Palladium book, Principled and Scrupulous characters can’t take dirty money, valuables or goods. Palladium defines this as property (credits are property aren’t they?) belonging to criminals (Black Market) or villains (the Coalition and its allies). If taken literally, this even prevents good-aligned characters from looting or salvaging weapons, gear, e-clips, etc. from fallen criminals and villains.

Four:
On the topic of conscience, how many free meals and warm beds to recharge an E-clip, or repair MDC armor? Simply put, you can’t be a mercenary and be good aligned in Rifts. Principled characters will always help others and Scrupulous characters will always try to help others even if those others can’t pay them or offer adequate compensation. How many times can players sustain burning through E-clips and sustaining MDC damage before they have to say ‘No’ to the next ramshackle D-bee village with no money and resources? How many times can you say ‘No, we can’t afford to help your quaint little village fight off those bandits, slavers or monsters’ and still maintain a good alignment?

These were just a couple of things that had me scratching my head.

[Shark_Force]

the black market isn't illegal everywhere, actually.

also, just because you oppose the CS, doesn't mean you can't use their money.

but even if it did, precious metals and gems do exist, and in fact is a starting option for starting money for a number of characters.

as to sustainability, well, that all depends. some people will have a difficult time with it. on the other hand, some don't; a cyber-knight as of RUE gets automatic dodge vs tech opponents, their cyber-armour regenerates, most if not all of them can use the psi-shield power, all of them can use a psi-sword and can parry with it. a cyber-knight *can* burn through an entire e-clip and take a huge amount of armour damage dealing with a minor nuisance, but they don't by any means *have* to do so.

likewise, various other classes have built-in sustainability; most practitioners of magic and master psychics will have some form of MDC protection and MD offense ability they can power with PPE or ISP. even many of the technology-based classes have a way to provide for their needs; an operator or rogue scientist/scholar can get resources in most major settlements in exchange for working.

finally, just because you're going to try to help everyone, doesn't mean you're going to charge headlong into battle across an open field screaming your challenge at the foe. a wilderness scout is not a soldier. if a monster is attacking a village, they'll do their best to use their skills as a wilderness scout to help. they'll track the creature to it's home, try and use their knowledge of creatures to figure out what the creature might be vulnerable to, if anything, or try to lead the creature away, perhaps into the territory of another predator, or even just help the villagers find a better way to hide from the creature. killing a monster or other enemy is only *one* way out of many possible ways that you can help.

that being said, yes it is hard to be a good person in rifts. the same can be said today; there are millions of people across the world who could use your help. many of them are in situations just as bad as a person in the rifts earth setting. do you have to grab an assault rifle and charge into battle against those who would oppress and/or enslave people to be a good person? of course not. there are many ways you can help. just as a person who tries to raise money to drill water wells in African villages is doing their best to help, taking into consideration their abilities, a good person in the rifts setting will do their best to help... within the best of their abilities. if their abilities don't include unlimited use laser rifles, then when doing their best to help they will take that into account and try to find a solution that does not involve unlimited use laser rifles.

[Akashic Soldier]

Have you read "What is a Credit?" (I believe that is the title), in the Rifts: Game Master Guide?

Essentially, Credit Cards (cards with Credits on them) work like Australian Debit Cards. You put credits on them, swipe them and it takes credits off them. Presumably there is certain fail safes in place to get around "credit making" software hackers might use to give themselves 1,000,000,000+ credits.

[Kelorin]

the black market isn't illegal everywhere, actually.

also, just because you oppose the CS, doesn't mean you can't use their money.

but even if it did, precious metals and gems do exist, and in fact is a starting option for starting money for a number of characters.

as to sustainability, well, that all depends. some people will have a difficult time with it. on the other hand, some don't; a cyber-knight as of RUE gets automatic dodge vs tech opponents, their cyber-armour regenerates, most if not all of them can use the psi-shield power, all of them can use a psi-sword and can parry with it. a cyber-knight *can* burn through an entire e-clip and take a huge amount of armour damage dealing with a minor nuisance, but they don't by any means *have* to do so.

likewise, various other classes have built-in sustainability; most practitioners of magic and master psychics will have some form of MDC protection and MD offense ability they can power with PPE or ISP. even many of the technology-based classes have a way to provide for their needs; an operator or rogue scientist/scholar can get resources in most major settlements in exchange for working.

finally, just because you're going to try to help everyone, doesn't mean you're going to charge headlong into battle across an open field screaming your challenge at the foe. a wilderness scout is not a soldier. if a monster is attacking a village, they'll do their best to use their skills as a wilderness scout to help. they'll track the creature to it's home, try and use their knowledge of creatures to figure out what the creature might be vulnerable to, if anything, or try to lead the creature away, perhaps into the territory of another predator, or even just help the villagers find a better way to hide from the creature. killing a monster or other enemy is only *one* way out of many possible ways that you can help.

that being said, yes it is hard to be a good person in rifts. the same can be said today; there are millions of people across the world who could use your help. many of them are in situations just as bad as a person in the rifts earth setting. do you have to grab an assault rifle and charge into battle against those who would oppress and/or enslave people to be a good person? of course not. there are many ways you can help. just as a person who tries to raise money to drill water wells in African villages is doing their best to help, taking into consideration their abilities, a good person in the rifts setting will do their best to help... within the best of their abilities. if their abilities don't include unlimited use laser rifles, then when doing their best to help they will take that into account and try to find a solution that does not involve unlimited use laser rifles.

True, you can oppose the CS and still use their money. Being good aligned and using their money (villains and criminals) puts you on shaky moral ground. Ditto for the Black Market. I would remind a player playing a good aligned character that used the it's not illegal everywhere argument that it is still illegal in a lot of places. That would be like a character stating, "Hey, we're in Atlantis. Since human slavery and trafficking is legal here, while we're here I'm OK with it too."

For some of the other points, let me clarify. I mean tech-based Mercs like the Mercenary Soldier, Robot Pilot, various Headhunters and most of the classes in Rifts Mercenaries that don't have PPE or ISP based powers and largely dependent on consumable tech based weapons and armor would have a hard time staying good aligned. The way the alignment system is written, good aligned characters can't turn away people in need and at the same time can't effectively loot or salvage weapons, gear and valuables from villains or criminals.

[Shark_Force]

i'll grant that the alignment system is a bit screwy in places for rifts. particularly in that no distinction is made between criminals of any sort when some criminals are only criminals because the powers that be don't like them (ie unregistered psychics, or mages, in CS territory). i also tend to agree that most people would have a much less strict view on what counts as dirty money or equivalent (and would be likely to salvage things that they have no realistic prospect of getting into the hands of the rightful owners due to not actually knowing who the rightful owners are).

personally, i don't really like the PB alignment system in general.

but, even if you take it at face value with no flexibility allowed, it is worth noting that just because not every town can reward you well for your deeds, that doesn't mean that none of them can, or that you can't come out ahead. if you use three e-clips in one town, and four in the next, and the first town can't offer you much more than basic traveling supplies but the second can offer you that plus e-clip recharges (and/or armour repair, etc), and the next town you're in can offer you a few thousand credits and old zeke's plasma rifle, you can still come out ahead. not every town has incredible resources, true, but it's reasonable to presume that many towns have some level of access to MD and MDC gear (if nothing else, the bandits you just defeated likely paid for their stuff by taking from the town, and the town may reward you with some of the bandit's gear... at which point it is no longer dirty money, because it was returned to it's rightful owners, and they in turn chose to use some or all of it to pay you. obviously, this doesn't put the power in the players' hands, but it does mean that even a poor town might be able to offer you something for your efforts).

once again, being good isn't easy in real life, either. at the heart of it, is that you should be making sacrifices to help other people who need it whether you are fairly compensated or not. if that was easy, it would likely be the standard, and wouldn't really be good any more... it would just be normal.

[Kelorin]

Have you read "What is a Credit?" (I believe that is the title), in the Rifts: Game Master Guide?

Essentially, Credit Cards (cards with Credits on them) work like Australian Debit Cards. You put credits on them, swipe them and it takes credits off them. Presumably there is certain fail safes in place to get around "credit making" software hackers might use to give themselves 1,000,000,000+ credits.

Have you read "What is a Credit?" (I believe that is the title), in the Rifts: Game Master Guide?

Essentially, Credit Cards (cards with Credits on them) work like Australian Debit Cards. You put credits on them, swipe them and it takes credits off them. Presumably there is certain fail safes in place to get around "credit making" software hackers might use to give themselves 1,000,000,000+ credits.

Did a little homework on this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stored-val ... paid_cards

The Wikipedia article describes two types of cards: Closed system anonymous prepaid cards that have a finite value, but can't be reloaded and can only be used by a single store chain or merchant. Not particularly useful in a Rifts setting. Semi-closed system prepaid cards that can be used with different merchants in a geographic area and are issued by a third party. In both cases "funds and or data are metaphorically 'physically' stored on the card, in the form of binary-coded data. With prepaid cards the data is maintained on computers affiliated with the card issuer."

This actually creates 3 or 4 new problems / issues as well.

1) Since the data / funds need to be verified and maintained on external computers, they couldn't be used in places on Rifts without computer or network access to computer banking systems (the CS, NGMI or the Black Market). On the other hand, imagine the stunned look on the PC's faces when they figure out that the CS Special Forces Strike Team that has been tailing them for weeks has been following them by triangulating the data packet traces from their cash cards every time they stop to buy lunch.

2) Those computers / servers ARE the failsafes that you mention. Without external verification, you could never trust the value on a card. On the one hand, Rifts tells us there are no remaining global communications networks, but on the other hand tells us that black market merchants ANYWHERE on Earth have reliable datalink access to financial servers to verify card transactions? Erin Tarn may never have been to Japan or Australia, but your local black market accountant might be able to tell you what a Yakuza arms merchant in Hiroshima bought for breakfast this morning.

3) In the real world, you buy cash cards with cash. Other than barter goods, what else could you trade for cash cards with no secondary currencies (other than other cash cards).

3) The average Coalition citizen CAN'T even use their own cash cards. With physical cash bills, or gold coins an illiterate person could still count out money using different images on bill denominations or the size and shape of coinage. With cash cards, the only way to read or use them requires using computerized card readers. The use of anything resembling a computer or card reader would require the Computer Operation skill or at Literacy.

[glitterboy2098]

1) Since the data / funds need to be verified and maintained on external computers, they couldn't be used in places on Rifts without computer or network access to computer banking systems (the CS, NGMI or the Black Market). On the other hand, imagine the stunned look on the PC's faces when they figure out that the CS Special Forces Strike Team that has been tailing them for weeks has been following them by triangulating the data packet traces from their cash cards every time they stop to buy lunch.

not really. data stored on portable storage can be traded without remote links.. this is the exact same way credit cards used to be done before the advent of telecommunications banking networks. you take the account info and security info, then when you can go to a bank, you use that to complete the transaction. its more of a checking paradigm than a debit card paradigm. used literally, there is a danger of fraud.

but there is a more game accurate way.. if the credit is a cryptocurrency, with discrete packets of info holding unique, encrypted codes and software program to prevent fully copying (only transfer, basically self deletes from the giver's storage after it is copied), you can use a computer to transfer the credits between two storage mediums (cards) without a central banking system, and reduced fruad risk, since "hacking" the credits themselves would be a very difficult task requiring extremely powerful computers, and the software within the credits themselves prevent simple false card balance schemes.

this merely requires any credits that are going to be used outside a city's banking net to be "loaded" onto the card itself, and thus separated from the main account. this also allows for physical courier transfer between electronically isolated regions.. you just load the credits into a suitable large digital storage system and physically carry them to the new banks.

its not 100% secure, but even our current money isn't. and forgery/counter-fitting would be a lot harder than with physical currency.

[Tor]

Aside from the cred issue and pertaining to the "always help others" issue.

That doesn't mean you have to help EVERYONE. Just that you always need to be in the process of helping SOMEONE other than yourself.

So if I'm busy carrying the orphaned kid to Dweomer, I don't have to stop to save the DB village.

[kaid]

One other big north american currency was not mentioned and that is the Northern gun credits. While it does not have the circulation of the CS credits it is another form of currency that is backed by a large stable city state and also one of the biggest manufacturers of stuff in north america for consumer use so a decent method of trade.

The farther one gets away from city states that are stable enough to have banking servers to verify cards the more likely people are going to want hard item trades and barter become more common than the use of credits.

The CS credits come in two forms one is the credit cards their citizens possess that every transaction is tracked and checked. Fraud is much less likely with these and theft of your funds would be very difficult similar to modern day credit cards. The second is their universal credit chips these basically chips loaded with a specific amount of funds they are not tracked and basically serve as hard "cash". If they are stolen they are gone and you have no recourse other than to steal them back.

Using CS universal credit chips would not be an evil or unsavory act. It is simply a trade good people accept has reasonable value due to the CS being a large and stable government.


As for the CS being aware of the warlords of russia it would be kind of odd if they were not. They have enough dealings with triax and have even sent an invasion force to help triax vs the gargoyles. It would be very very strange for triax to not at very least give the CS a general overview of what they know of europe and the powers that exist there.

As for black market credits being used world wide I find it very possible. One of the black market factions specializes in magical travel using rifts to cover large distances. It is likely that there are actually different flavors of black market credits for the various parts of the world but having some mutual trade deal with other black market sectors makes a lot of sense.

Also as others have mentioned what is black market in the CS is often not black market in most other places. A history book in the CS would be highly illegal would a scrupulous rogue scholar refuse to accept it as a history payment because the CS found it illegal?

As with all alignment systems in RPG it is up to the GM's and players to put context on the broad overviews of the alignments. Being good is challenging under the best of circumstances and in what is in effect a pretty lawless wilderness it is even harder yet which is why the selfish alignments tend to be the most common.

[Akashic Soldier]

Don't they specifically say that NG specifically uses the Coalition's currency?

[kaid]

Don't they specifically say that NG specifically uses the Coalition's currency?

No they have their own currency system they trade a lot with the CS so you can use CS money in the northern gun stores but they do maintain their own currency system.

[Nightmask]

I'm not seeing how you get the idea that using CS currency would somehow be evil, money's a tool and using it would be no more evil than using a SAMAS. While the CS and its government are quite evil using their money isn't. You aren't providing them active support using it the money exists whether you spend it or not.

As far as 'you can't be a good-aligned mercenary' goes, yeah that's just wrong. Sometimes good people can't help others even if they want to, that doesn't make them no longer good people it just means that they have to acknowledge their limits. You do what you can when you can, and those you can't help weigh on your conscience and motivate you to do more to be able to help those later on.

[Blue_Lion]

First let me say that using the most widely used currency does not mean you support or endorse the views of the issuing nation, its value is the perceived stability of the CS.

Now the term credit has been used in the books to talk about both hard and virtual currency. There a few ways to deal with virtual currency that can be used in rifts. Off the top of my head 2 ways come to mind 1 smart cards, 2 central relay transactions hubs.

1 Smart cards with a encrypted chip that tracks how much credits are on it and logs all transactions. Occasionally in main sectors it or large purchases it may be checked against a main log relay. (Think of it as a system like personal check cashing system but in a paperless form.)

2 Central relay; I have seen radios in the books with range in access of 500 miles and those are mobile systems. So it is very feasible for the CS and NG to set up a few central hubs of dedicated transaction radio networks that would cover the main playing field of north America with there trade partners setting up radios relays to connect to the main hub.

Forging credits is talked about in Rifts Mercenaries book. Not going to have access to my books but I am sure some one here can look up the rules if you want. But I can tell you this if you get greedy and give yourself 100000+ credits you have a high risk of getting caught and that is allot more trouble than you will want.

Black market credits are as I understand them only used by the black market (not that Triax and NG have similar currencies.) These are more like company cash (witch was used to enslave workers as only the issuing company would take them so you could not save up and leave) or in store credit. The would rather pay you in this because they as a organization are more likely to make it up mark up so your 40K pay day cost them 10K.

The concept of credits is to make purchasing things easier to manage in game. Basically it was to move the process to the back ground for groups that do not want to roll play a barter system.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I’ve been going over all of my Rifts books for the couple of weeks and have noticed a number of ‘issues’ and inconsistencies with the use of credits and money in Rifts.

One:
No unified global communications or data networks (except for financial transactions). From the essay “The Trouble with Credits” in Rifts: New West, we are told that the Coalition States (CS) represents 73% of all trade on the continent, that universal credits can be used just about anywhere in North America or the NGR. Doesn’t this mean that the CS is fully aware of the existence of the Sovietski and other NGR trade partners? What happens if the NGR starts trading with Japan, Australia and the New Navy? What happens if the CS starts trading with Columbia?

I always made the presumption that while the CS and NGR use the CS credit for trade with each-other, the NGR would use a different currency for trading with the Soveitski and others. Remember, just because the NGR has CS credits, dosn't mean the Sovetski actually accept them at all. "What, you want to pay us with some worthless currency from across the globe? get real". it would only be for NGR internal markets.

Two:
The Black Market credit can be used at “virtually all Black Market operations scattered throughout the world”. Really? Doesn’t that make the Black Market credit the de facto world currency of Rifts Earth? Where does the Black Market keep and maintain the servers and hardlines (can’t use satellites) that process all these global transactions? Do they also have a secret stock market somewhere that trades in global currencies too?

It made a lot more sense when you notice that most OCC's in the eairly books start with both credits and "Black market goods" for starting money, and the black market goods represented barter items and not actual currency. I would presume that while the black market does maintain it's own credit, that 95% of it's actualy daily operations are still in barter transactions, or more accurately, you barter for something, and get the change in black market credits.

Three:
Can I get that in trade? What form of currency can a good aligned D-bee leyline walker or cyberknight opposed to the Coalition use? If you see the CS and its allies as evil, can you in even use Coalition or NGMI (CS ally) credits? The only other widely accepted alternative credit based currency in North America belongs to the Black Market. From the Alignment section of any Palladium book, Principled and Scrupulous characters can’t take dirty money, valuables or goods. Palladium defines this as property (credits are property aren’t they?) belonging to criminals (Black Market) or villains (the Coalition and its allies). If taken literally, this even prevents good-aligned characters from looting or salvaging weapons, gear, e-clips, etc. from fallen criminals and villains.

Black market goods. also, it has been stated sinse the first main book that most of north america still enjoys a robust barter system.

You would also not be out of line to say some of the small, independant kingdoms in north america maintain their private currency, but it would only be very useful if you lived around there.

Four:
On the topic of conscience, how many free meals and warm beds to recharge an E-clip, or repair MDC armor? Simply put, you can’t be a mercenary and be good aligned in Rifts. Principled characters will always help others and Scrupulous characters will always try to help others even if those others can’t pay them or offer adequate compensation. How many times can players sustain burning through E-clips and sustaining MDC damage before they have to say ‘No’ to the next ramshackle D-bee village with no money and resources? How many times can you say ‘No, we can’t afford to help your quaint little village fight off those bandits, slavers or monsters’ and still maintain a good alignment?

These were just a couple of things that had me scratching my head.

There is a reason that historically and sterotypically most mercenaries are selfish alignments at best. "Good" mercenaries are rare for exactly that reason--it's hard to make a living that way.

[Alrik Vas]

It doesn't explicitly say (unless it does and I need to read the book again), but most Mercs got their training from somewhere. Probably the same where they got their gear, probably the same place they live, because the jobs and infrastructure to operate their heavy war machines exists in that place.

Geography dictates a lot in NA. It's why so many people are in trouble and travel is rare, no one aside idiots (PC's leaving safety of their home, cyber knights, etc) even travel.