Altara/BWW Armor question

[MidnightNova]

I tried looking this up but could not locate any official or unofficial answers.

This is in regards to the standard Altaran "one-piece swimsuit" armor. As written it has 30 MDC with no AR listed, let apparently has no visible protection for the legs and arms. So how do people handle it?

1: As is. No modifications, no explanation. (It's Splugorthian)

2: As is. It actually has transparent material on the arms and legs.

3: As is, but you can hit the unarmored portions with a called shot to the limb. (Note: This might also apply to other armor that has limb exposure-Juicer Assassin for example.)

4: Assign it an AR value.

What are people's opinion on this?

[say652]

It provides 30mdc.

[Tor]

That doesn't exactly answer MN's question.

It does look like something that should have an AR, but I am liking your 'transparent film' idea.

[say652]

Its magic. Like everything else. The splugorth use magic devices. Kinda their thing.

[Shark_Force]

i try not to think about it too much, and just give them 30 MDC with no AR value because otherwise it's basically worthless as armour.

even if you assume there is some transparent material for no apparent reason, you'd still have a completely exposed face and neck. so basically, for the sake of making the game work, you either need to retcon what their armour looks like, or ignore logic entirely.

bearing in mind that ignoring logic (and also physics) entirely will also help you deal with numerous other situations that are almost guaranteed to come up in the game (like the part where non-environmental body armour can protect you in any meaningful way from a plasma grenade, for example).

[slade the sniper]

I suppose that you could really go any way you want as long as there is some internal logic to it.
1: As is. No modifications, no explanation. (It's Splugorthian)
If you go with this, the suit itself becomes something to strip off dead Altarians, because the material has some very awesome qualities. And dealing with my players, that armor material will become the primary thing they will try and make into clothes, suits, capes, camo nets, etc.

2: As is. It actually has transparent material on the arms and legs.
This is a good way to go, but beware that the same problem may arise as with #1.

3: As is, but you can hit the unarmored portions with a called shot to the limb. (Note: This might also apply to other armor that has limb exposure-Juicer Assassin for example.)
This would actually be my preferred solution. It keeps the look, reduces the GM responsibilities and never has to be told to the players until they decide to make a called shot.

4: Assign it an AR value.
This would be a good way to go too, I would say AR of 10, which is pretty low...

NEW-5: The armor is actually composed of the helmet, the body suit and an amulet that all work in concert. The body suit and the helmet have 30 mdc...the amulet allows the exposed arms, legs and face to have the same amount of protection (30 MDC) in the same way as the shields in Dune work. But, it only works for BWW, while alive, and as a whole system (amulet, helmet and body suit).

-STS

[Tor]

i try not to think about it too much, and just give them 30 MDC with no AR value because otherwise it's basically worthless as armour.

Although the possibility of being 1-hitted sucks for SDC guys wearing MDC armor with AR, that doesn't make it worthless, just vulnerable.

We should also keep in mind that the Splugorth probably have access to that spell from FoM that can be cast on armor that when it's destroyed, will convert MDC to SDC damage for a few minutes.

I would assume by default that all BWW have this spell cast on their armor...

Although I guess if it only kicks in upon destruction, that wouldn't prevent insta-death from AR bypass if we gave it one.

even if you assume there is some transparent material for no apparent reason, you'd still have a completely exposed face and neck.

I dunno, what if there's film covering that too? Maybe that's why that one looked completely unphased getting cheek-licked by the Slaver. Given their tendency to do stuff like that, it probably reduces rebellion to give them some shielding.

[Giant2005]

There are lots of cases where certain types of armor in my opinion should be using the A.R. system but don't. The B.W.W. "Armor" isn't even the worst offender - in NG2 there is a pair of pants you could be wearing that provide 8 M.D.C. without an A.R.
It is actually pretty rare to find A.R. on M.D.C. equipment, even on things that don't have full coverage. I have no idea how to justify it exactly but I play it as written anyway.

[Shark_Force]

i try not to think about it too much, and just give them 30 MDC with no AR value because otherwise it's basically worthless as armour.

Although the possibility of being 1-hitted sucks for SDC guys wearing MDC armor with AR, that doesn't make it worthless, just vulnerable.

We should also keep in mind that the Splugorth probably have access to that spell from FoM that can be cast on armor that when it's destroyed, will convert MDC to SDC damage for a few minutes.

I would assume by default that all BWW have this spell cast on their armor...

and then a single grenade kills them all because hey, MDC in an area and their full body isn't covered, and since the armour wasn't destroyed they don't get any protection from the spell (not that i consider it canon for them to have that spell on at all times... the splugorth are not generally noted for their concern for their minion's lives, especially the lower ranking ones).

turn your brain off when playing rifts, or be prepared to handle an awful lot of stuff that doesn't make any sense. it's one or the other, because the second you can do that to blind warrior women, expect people to start expecting to be able to do that sort of thing to pretty much anyone not wearing full environmental body armour, and expect to hear a lot of complaining if you try and actually enforce the EBA rules for spellcasters stuff, because suddenly MDC armour on an SDC body offers barely any protection unless it's environmental (alternately, expect people to suddenly start playing a lot of MDC beings).

[say652]

The Atlantis book says they are also given symbiotes and bioborg upgrades. Also the Splugorth do have the ability to bestow super powers to their minions. Phaseworld. Yup.

[Zer0 Kay]

But i thought their super power was keep dignity while running around in near sheer one piece swimsuit that any human would consider lingerie. That and avoid getting a wedgie in said outfit while performing martial arts combat. What's the emote for anime nosebleed?

[Zer0 Kay]

i try not to think about it too much, and just give them 30 MDC with no AR value because otherwise it's basically worthless as armour.

Although the possibility of being 1-hitted sucks for SDC guys wearing MDC armor with AR, that doesn't make it worthless, just vulnerable.

We should also keep in mind that the Splugorth probably have access to that spell from FoM that can be cast on armor that when it's destroyed, will convert MDC to SDC damage for a few minutes.

I would assume by default that all BWW have this spell cast on their armor...

and then a single grenade kills them all because hey, MDC in an area and their full body isn't covered, and since the armour wasn't destroyed they don't get any protection from the spell (not that i consider it canon for them to have that spell on at all times... the splugorth are not generally noted for their concern for their minion's lives, especially the lower ranking ones).

turn your brain off when playing rifts, or be prepared to handle an awful lot of stuff that doesn't make any sense. it's one or the other, because the second you can do that to blind warrior women, expect people to start expecting to be able to do that sort of thing to pretty much anyone not wearing full environmental body armour, and expect to hear a lot of complaining if you try and actually enforce the EBA rules for spellcasters stuff, because suddenly MDC armour on an SDC body offers barely any protection unless it's environmental (alternately, expect people to suddenly start playing a lot of MDC beings).

No, for the same reason that giant robot limbs don't take damage in a missile blast... cuz that is the way the system works... FIREBALL!

[Shark_Force]

i try not to think about it too much, and just give them 30 MDC with no AR value because otherwise it's basically worthless as armour.

Although the possibility of being 1-hitted sucks for SDC guys wearing MDC armor with AR, that doesn't make it worthless, just vulnerable.

We should also keep in mind that the Splugorth probably have access to that spell from FoM that can be cast on armor that when it's destroyed, will convert MDC to SDC damage for a few minutes.

I would assume by default that all BWW have this spell cast on their armor...

and then a single grenade kills them all because hey, MDC in an area and their full body isn't covered, and since the armour wasn't destroyed they don't get any protection from the spell (not that i consider it canon for them to have that spell on at all times... the splugorth are not generally noted for their concern for their minion's lives, especially the lower ranking ones).

turn your brain off when playing rifts, or be prepared to handle an awful lot of stuff that doesn't make any sense. it's one or the other, because the second you can do that to blind warrior women, expect people to start expecting to be able to do that sort of thing to pretty much anyone not wearing full environmental body armour, and expect to hear a lot of complaining if you try and actually enforce the EBA rules for spellcasters stuff, because suddenly MDC armour on an SDC body offers barely any protection unless it's environmental (alternately, expect people to suddenly start playing a lot of MDC beings).

No, for the same reason that giant robot limbs don't take damage in a missile blast... cuz that is the way the system works... FIREBALL!

the system works that way in defiance of all reason. if you start making changes to armour on the basis of logic in one place, it's a very slippery slope before you have to start changing *everything* in the system to make sense.

that's why i try very hard to ignore it. lousy as the system is in some ways, i can make it work with a few tweaks here and there. i don't want to start examining and patching up logic holes, because if i do that i'll be at it for years.

[say652]

But i thought their super power was keep dignity while running around in near sheer one piece swimsuit that any human would consider lingerie. That and avoid getting a wedgie in said outfit while performing martial arts combat. What's the emote for anime nosebleed?

sometimes a lil swimsuit wedgie is hot. Lol. Its what gives them the awe factor. Cleavage.

[Tor]

their full body isn't covered

It doesn't LOOK like it's covered... but appearances may deceive.

since the armour wasn't destroyed they don't get any protection from the spell

Which I mentioned

(not that i consider it canon for them to have that spell on at all times... the splugorth are not generally noted for their concern for their minion's lives, especially the lower ranking ones).

It's not canonically stated, but I think it a fair assumption. The spell is not hard to cast and Splugorth may not have concern for minions lives, but they do have concern for their property, which slaves/minions are. Very cheap investment to guard their investment.

[MidnightNova]

Divided between the "30 MDC, Period" and "You can make called shots to hit limbs", will canvas my players for their options on it. Thanks for all the replies though.

[cornholioprime]

I tried looking this up but could not locate any official or unofficial answers.

This is in regards to the standard Altaran "one-piece swimsuit" armor. As written it has 30 MDC with no AR listed, let apparently has no visible protection for the legs and arms. So how do people handle it?

1: As is. No modifications, no explanation. (It's Splugorthian)

2: As is. It actually has transparent material on the arms and legs.

3: As is, but you can hit the unarmored portions with a called shot to the limb. (Note: This might also apply to other armor that has limb exposure-Juicer Assassin for example.)

4: Assign it an AR value.

What are people's opinion on this?

Answer: D -None of the above.

It's an RPG, not a treatise on How Things Would Really Work In The Real World. Damage 'automatically and magically' goes to the Main Body, for strictly game-play reasons -unless the target in question has been specifically allocated Other-Than-Main-Body locations to hit, with separate damage values.

ALL works of fiction require their consumers to suspend their disbelief to some extent or other in order to make the fictional universe work.

If the reader/player of the fictional work in question didn't ever have to engage in any sort of imaginary exercise whatsoever, then they wouldn't be calling it "fiction," now would they?

[Akashic Soldier]

I run it that is only protects the main body, a called shot can slip past and take off an arm and a leg if they are not careful (or skilled enough to evade the attack). It is this reason they are typically equipped with one of the Splugorth amulets (as per equipment of note). As far as I can tell, the Splugorth don't really place a lot of value on the lives of their warrior women and are not too fussed if they are killed so long as they look pretty doing it.

[say652]

Welcome back to the land if discussing Akashic. Did you ever do that troll adventure you made all the pre gebs for?

[Akashic Soldier]

Welcome back to the land if discussing Akashic. Did you ever do that troll adventure you made all the pre gebs for?

I'm sorry, I am not sure I understand?

[say652]

You were working on an adventure last rime we spoke. Maybe a year ago. You had posted aome pre generated characters. Trolls one was a driver one was a cook. I think their was twins.

[Zer0 Kay]

But i thought their super power was keep dignity while running around in near sheer one piece swimsuit that any human would consider lingerie. That and avoid getting a wedgie in said outfit while performing martial arts combat. What's the emote for anime nosebleed?

sometimes a lil swimsuit wedgie is hot. Lol. Its what gives them the awe factor. Cleavage.

I guess it's always better than chainmail bikini chaffing. Besides it probably cant give them a wedgie the various tentacle monsters of the splugorth empire probably took a vote and decided they like thongs better, low cut, high rise, prewedgied suits that are slightly to small to ride up a little in places clothes shouldn't be trying to go. But i guess when your slimy, drooling, tentacled masters say put this on, you learn to live with it and the breeze.

[Akashic Soldier]

You were working on an adventure last rime we spoke. Maybe a year ago. You had posted aome pre generated characters. Trolls one was a driver one was a cook. I think their was twins.

I am not exactly sure what you are talking it about. Could you be referring to Gruz, my Earth Warlock Troll in CyberDon's Wayfarers in the Megaverse game?

[say652]

You were working on an adventure last rime we spoke. Maybe a year ago. You had posted aome pre generated characters. Trolls one was a driver one was a cook. I think their was twins.

I am not exactly sure what you are talking it about. Could you be referring to Gruz, my Earth Warlock Troll in CyberDon's Wayfarers in the Megaverse game?

Yup yup.

[Akashic Soldier]

Yup yup.

Rad.

I haven't played him a while actually, I miss the character. However, we should be starting up again soon so hopefully I'll have the chance again sometime in the near future.

As for not being around, I am sorry man. I am still very active doing my GMing thing (which you can keep up to date with by following the link in my signature to Rifts Online). However, I've had trouble with certain people in the community so I've cut my time down here to a real minimum. Just happier off focusing on the positive and my own stuff without all the bitterness and anger. I hope you understand. Good to still see you are here and posting though man.

Regarding the topic at hand though, I've never really worried so much about the "exposed" parts for the Altara because each one is statistically on par with Captain America. Those barges with just three of those girls have nearly wiped out my Player Character group on two separate occasions.

[Alrik Vas]

Troll Earth Warlock, i remember that. Good times.

Maybe I'll have him do a cameo in one of my stories, if that's acceptable to the creator.

[Akashic Soldier]

Troll Earth Warlock, i remember that. Good times.

Maybe I'll have him do a cameo in one of my stories, if that's acceptable to the creator.

Haha, I should do see if I can slip him into one of the Rifters somehow or something. I've played a lot of characters, but not many have the same gruff charm as the big guy. He's like bastard son of Hellboy and Scrooge McDuck.

HERE is his character sheet. Its not "for print", its just my private copy that I use when playing. All the red stuff are things I've had stolen (or recently killed) and needs to be recovered/avenged.

[Blue_Lion]

I run it that is only protects the main body, a called shot can slip past and take off an arm and a leg if they are not careful (or skilled enough to evade the attack). It is this reason they are typically equipped with one of the Splugorth amulets (as per equipment of note). As far as I can tell, the Splugorth don't really place a lot of value on the lives of their warrior women and are not too fussed if they are killed so long as they look pretty doing it.

Basically the same as the ley line walker armor in Rue. It protects the main body witch is where all non called shots hit. Personally I do not allow a MDC shot to a arm or leg to be a insta-gib, but is a loss of a % of sdc hit points and loss of limb. Other wise people start trying to do called shots to the hands to kill people. Why should the splugorth care if there slave warriors lose a limb they can always replace them.

[Alrik Vas]

I see the argument for that, but shock is a *****. Granted, it's an RPG, so we should be more heroic, or something, but if you lose your whole arm there's a good argument that shock could take you down for good. I usually leave it up to a save vs coma/death.

[Akashic Soldier]

I see the argument for that, but shock is a *****. Granted, it's an RPG, so we should be more heroic, or something, but if you lose your whole arm there's a good argument that shock could take you down for good. I usually leave it up to a save vs coma/death.

That is how I do it as well. I just reduce the damage done to a region from the M.D.C. of the main body AND the location, since the locations M.D.C. values are percentages derivative of the main body anyway. Its just, if the hand takes X damage, off it goes. Then it is a saving throw vs pain (I normally say about 16 for hand, 18 for a limb) or they go down and that is the end of them. They'd better hope they've got some backup to drag them out and patch them up. Its actually one of the ways I found players would be more keen to beat NPCs they didn't want to kill, although they haven't done it in a LONG time. The current tactic is "Unbuckle his helmet!!!" or "You smash off his helmet!!!" and then people just making constant orchestrated headshots.

Its kinda funny and sad at the same time, but as a G.M., I must remain silent... well, except for when I am describing their brains spilling out across the floor I suppose...

[Kagashi]

I tried looking this up but could not locate any official or unofficial answers.

This is in regards to the standard Altaran "one-piece swimsuit" armor. As written it has 30 MDC with no AR listed, let apparently has no visible protection for the legs and arms. So how do people handle it?

1: As is. No modifications, no explanation. (It's Splugorthian)

2: As is. It actually has transparent material on the arms and legs.

3: As is, but you can hit the unarmored portions with a called shot to the limb. (Note: This might also apply to other armor that has limb exposure-Juicer Assassin for example.)

4: Assign it an AR value.

What are people's opinion on this?

BWW armor was written early in Rifts history and include that kind of stuff like MDC AR back then. Without modifying, Id say number 1 is the best option. Perhaps it has TW properties.

But there are a lot on non-environmental armors which should have MDC AR values associated with them like the Huntsman and Urban Warrior. And we still do not have values for them.

[kaid]

i try not to think about it too much, and just give them 30 MDC with no AR value because otherwise it's basically worthless as armour.

even if you assume there is some transparent material for no apparent reason, you'd still have a completely exposed face and neck. so basically, for the sake of making the game work, you either need to retcon what their armour looks like, or ignore logic entirely.

bearing in mind that ignoring logic (and also physics) entirely will also help you deal with numerous other situations that are almost guaranteed to come up in the game (like the part where non-environmental body armour can protect you in any meaningful way from a plasma grenade, for example).

You also see this with the new armored clothing lines from NG. They are not environmental armors and you can wear a duster and it would give you protection without an AR. Given the binary nature of MDC vs SDC opponents of either the armor works and you live or it does not and you are vaporized and the meager amount of armor these things provide it seems fine to not have an AR.

[Tor]

Didn't Triax have that MDC clothing prior to NG?

[Jerell]

Triax did have something like an MDC suit, and I believe Dinosaur swamp had some low MDC BDUs of some sort.

I run it that is only protects the main body, a called shot can slip past and take off an arm and a leg if they are not careful (or skilled enough to evade the attack). It is this reason they are typically equipped with one of the Splugorth amulets (as per equipment of note). As far as I can tell, the Splugorth don't really place a lot of value on the lives of their warrior women and are not too fussed if they are killed so long as they look pretty doing it.

Pretty much spot on how I run it. They always have the standard amulet they come equipped with.

Their amulets tend to work great anyways. But if the PCs can somehow get the drop on them and make a called shot, good for them, I don't pull punches with or against splugorth minions. Altara are one of my favorite enemies to torment the players with. Last time they ambushed the PCs in a cave, starting off with a good old fashion smoke grenade. The moans of, "#*$&, I don't have thermal optics!" were many that night I can tell you. Next time, they'll have hot smoke.

[Tor]

Amulets won't help much if someone snipes them in the mouth, or blows off an arm before it can touch the amulet.

If people are doing this stuff I want enemies doing called head shots on characters helmets and hands and stuff though.

[Blue_Lion]

I see the argument for that, but shock is a *****. Granted, it's an RPG, so we should be more heroic, or something, but if you lose your whole arm there's a good argument that shock could take you down for good. I usually leave it up to a save vs coma/death.

That is how I do it as well. I just reduce the damage done to a region from the M.D.C. of the main body AND the location, since the locations M.D.C. values are percentages derivative of the main body anyway. Its just, if the hand takes X damage, off it goes. Then it is a saving throw vs pain (I normally say about 16 for hand, 18 for a limb) or they go down and that is the end of them. They'd better hope they've got some backup to drag them out and patch them up. Its actually one of the ways I found players would be more keen to beat NPCs they didn't want to kill, although they haven't done it in a LONG time. The current tactic is "Unbuckle his helmet!!!" or "You smash off his helmet!!!" and then people just making constant orchestrated headshots.

Its kinda funny and sad at the same time, but as a G.M., I must remain silent... well, except for when I am describing their brains spilling out across the floor I suppose...

I could have sworn saving throw vs pain was a flat number. Athol often the victims of sever trama do not feel the pain right away. They are in a type of shock and have shut out the pain, not the shock intent coma. So it is very likely they will still be fighting but if they do not get medical care soon could be in a life threating situation. The few times I have seen some one get hit and have fingers or limb blown off they were not aware how bad they got hit until something else caused them to notice it. Like a CW3 I know his vechile got hit by A IED he did not know he lost 2 fingers until the fingers dangling in his glove got in his way of climbing out of the Humvee. He had lost 2 fingers shattered femur and did not feel either for several minutes.

Wait your group actually tries to take people alive, as in not just kill them outright? Few times I have seen players try that they used nero maces, or was a conversion of a charter from ninjas and superspies. (not the revised one so had auto knock out from behind, he never killed any one just snuck up on them and knocked them out.)

[Akashic Soldier]

I often have NPCs with vital information. So players either take them alive or miss out on a lot. Its a bit of a risk sometimes and will often result in things seeming a bit incomplete in a story. However, I just make it a note to mention "Well, that is what happens when you murder everyone."

I make sure that at least 50% of all encounters in an adventure have a reward (other than EXP) for avoiding violence. Like in real life, murder should be a last resort when it comes to problem solving.

[Blue_Lion]

I often have NPCs with vital information. So players either take them alive or miss out on a lot. Its a bit of a risk sometimes and will often result in things seeming a bit incomplete in a story. However, I just make it a note to mention "Well, that is what happens when you murder everyone."

I make sure that at least 50% of all encounters in an adventure have a reward (other than EXP) for avoiding violence. Like in real life, murder should be a last resort when it comes to problem solving.

Seams a bit high like you are trying to hammer a certain play style.

[Jerell]

I often have NPCs with vital information. So players either take them alive or miss out on a lot. Its a bit of a risk sometimes and will often result in things seeming a bit incomplete in a story. However, I just make it a note to mention "Well, that is what happens when you murder everyone."

I make sure that at least 50% of all encounters in an adventure have a reward (other than EXP) for avoiding violence. Like in real life, murder should be a last resort when it comes to problem solving.

Usually I'm with your way of thinking, but in this case, if you're fighting minions of the Splugorth, better to not leave them able to come back and take revenge on you.

[MidnightNova]

It's odd that the Triax T-40 Plainclothes armor has an AR listed for the different pieces, but the NG armored clothing does not. I'm wondering if AR got basically junked because the changes to energy weapons/firearms combat in RUE made it fairly pointless on smaller coverage armored clothing like vests?

[kaid]

It's odd that the Triax T-40 Plainclothes armor has an AR listed for the different pieces, but the NG armored clothing does not. I'm wondering if AR got basically junked because the changes to energy weapons/firearms combat in RUE made it fairly pointless on smaller coverage armored clothing like vests?

I am guessing this is the case. More of a play balance change than realism and I am okay with that its not like the armored clothing is going to take more than a hit or two by any weapon and now we have some pistols doing 5d6 MDC the armored clothing not having an AR is not a huge deal.

Allows for some more RP type armor choices with things like rogue scientists/city rats where they probably would not want to run around in the equivelent of full plate armor but didn't really have a choice other than to simply die when anything with MDC got half lucky on an attack roll.