Palladium Books' crowdfunding efforts

[Kryptt]

Seems like things are getting worse.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/28554.html

[The Galactus Kid]

Seems like things are getting worse.

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/28554.html

That is the same information that we had from Palladium communication, with the exception of the new SKU names.

[Jorel]

Where has Palladium posted that info?

[Steve Dubya]

Where has Palladium posted that info?

The consternation of production seems to more or less be a paraphrasing of the May 1st update, but this is the first I've seen of another bump in release.

[The Galactus Kid]

Where has Palladium posted that info?

The consternation of production seems to more or less be a paraphrasing of the May 1st update, but this is the first I've seen of another bump in release.

Yeah, that is what I was referring to. I didn't notice the bump in the date.

[Jorel]

So...they haven't announced that?

[Steve Dubya]

So...they haven't announced that?

As a "straight from Palladium to customers/fans/backers"? I don't believe so. That's info that is at least a week old (as the ICv2 posty was from the 5th) from a "trade solicitation," so like "news for distributors/retailers."

[Jorel]

They suck at communicating anything to the backers, you know, the people whose money they are using to make this product. The people who made the funding possible are the last to find out when they will receive their stuff, or not. Bummer that PB doesn't seam to think it is worth their time or effort to communicate respectfully with the backers instead of the backers having to dredge up any information themselves.

[Kryptt]

It's even more upsetting when we have no say in it, and were shown badly designed moulds with too many pieces and seams in the front. Then were told to shut up because this is the only way. At this rate I don't think the next two eras will ever come out. We'll be lucky to get wave two next year. Which considering seems more likely at this point. Which also means no rifts tactics unless PB gets someone besides ND to slave away at it.

[Jorel]

We never really had a say. The only option we had was to fund or not. Anything else is fooling yourself you had any control over any of this. it wasn't money on the condition of input, it was...here is our money, please don't mess this up.

[Kryptt]

I meant it as PB giving the fans what they want, not what only a few want.

[Steve Dubya]

I'm wondering if communicating the timelines Palladium/ND have been quoted for the various aspects of production/transportation would help assuage backers..

Something along the lines of:

• Production of plastic sprues (estimated to days/weeks from quote)
• Transportation time to dock (days)
• Cross-Pacific transportation (days/weeks)
• Estimate of clearing customs (days?)
• Transportation from CA to MI (days)

From the various updates it sounds like they already have the time booked (or floated or something) meaning that the actual company doing the production should have a decent estimate of how long it would be to create the plastic portions. I would then also hope that the overseas transportation has been similarly scheduled, and there should be a timeline that was provided for that.

Giving that info to the backers - and then being able to say, "Hey we're now at step 3!" - would go a loooooooong way in assuaging those who feel the project has been derailed.

[Forar]

Agreed, Steve. While extenuating circumstances can happen (a mold breaks mid run or something awful like that), they are supposedly on the verge of production, which means they should have someone at the factory who has experience with these things and can give at least a vague timeframe. x00,000 sprues across Y molds on Z machines, etc. Presumably the factory they're working with (possibly WGF?) has been doing this for a long time, and likely can at least estimate the production schedule.

Shipping seems to be much less of a science, as there are a LOT of moving parts and things beyond their control (when the ship leaves, weather or other factors influencing the trek, whether or not their stuff gets caught in a customs check for a week, etc), but the actual punching of plastic shouldn't be anything mystical or obscured to a site that presumably punches out millions of whatevers (parts, figures, etc) per year.

Really hoping the next update notes that production has begun, and at least gives an estimate as to how long it will take. That kind of context could alleviate a lot of concerns, assuming it's a reasonable target (ie: doesn't run into July or something insane like that).

[bielmic]

Agreed, Steve. While extenuating circumstances can happen (a mold breaks mid run or something awful like that), they are supposedly on the verge of production, which means they should have someone at the factory who has experience with these things and can give at least a vague timeframe. x00,000 sprues across Y molds on Z machines, etc.

They've been on the verge of production since May 20th of 2013. We are fast approaching the one year anniversary of that lie.

[Forar]

True, but we actually have test sprues being punched out, which means some molds actually exist.

Yay progress! >.>

Point being, their factory should have an idea how long a project of this size will take.

[Jorel]

The minute they give us another time estimate, and I'm talking PB, not the factory or ND, but PB gives us any estimate on how long anything should take...I will immediately multiply that number by 10 and not take them seriously. Why would they suddenly start giving accurate time tables about anything at this point? I wouldn't believe it and the reality is no one would, except those gullible people who haven't learned the hard way yet. No...what they need to do is give detailed progress reports and stop giving false deadlines and ship dates and other things they have no clue about...

[bielmic]

The minute they give us another time estimate, and I'm talking PB, not the factory or ND, but PB gives us any estimate on how long anything should take...I will immediately multiply that number by 10 and not take them seriously. Why would they suddenly start giving accurate time tables about anything at this point? I wouldn't believe it and the reality is no one would, except those gullible people who haven't learned the hard way yet. No...what they need to do is give detailed progress reports and stop giving false deadlines and ship dates and other things they have no clue about...

I'd prefer them simply giving us a table with the exact stage of development/production of EVERY portion of this project from both waves. I don't trust palladium estimates/promises/etc any more. Somehow critics (who are NOT fans/customers according to the 1% open house poll) with no inside knowledge of the goings on at Palladium/ND/HG knew more about the project and were better able to estimate the production than the experts brought on or the veteran company managing the project. If they just tell us where each and every item is on the grand scale of going from idea to product in our hands, we can judge the approximate date of completion for this massively delayed serious of blunders better than the folks who took our money last year.

If I see 4 months from now that none of the test sprues on wave 2 have been finalized (that's real world finalized... not RRPGT 2013 update use of the word), then I'll decide for myself that nothing will arrive by the end of 2014 despite not having an official update on the matter.

[Steve Dubya]

Huh. I guess the timeline was one of the "Ten Questions" that got passed along from the KS backers, and this was the response a month ago:

Can we get a projected schedule, broken down by dependencies, to allow for product to be shipped to backers before Gen Con?

Not yet, I’m afraid. I’m still trying to get some of that information. Between the conventions last week and this week, and the need for some of that info to come from China, I just haven’t been able to get all the info I need to give you all a detailed schedule. I am working on it.

If they hadn't access to or didn't know that information, how were they determining the release dates?

[bielmic]

Huh. I guess the timeline was one of the "Ten Questions" that got passed along from the KS backers, and this was the response a month ago:

Can we get a projected schedule, broken down by dependencies, to allow for product to be shipped to backers before Gen Con?

Not yet, I’m afraid. I’m still trying to get some of that information. Between the conventions last week and this week, and the need for some of that info to come from China, I just haven’t been able to get all the info I need to give you all a detailed schedule. I am working on it.

If they hadn't access to or didn't know that information, how were they determining the release dates?

According to the ICV2 article, they were assuming things about the project they're managing instead of checking them to be absolutely sure which backs up how the valkyrie test sprues were "in the mail" for almost two weeks before they found out they were never sent instead of just mandating tracking on every project package sent. We'll see what (if anything) palladium says about the ICV2 quote as NMI sent a link to them.

[Kryptt]

It'll just get downplayed like us dissatisfied backers

[Jorel]

That has been one of my sore points this whole time. They just keep making up new dates without any logic or facts to back up those dates. And then when that fictional deadline blows past they sheepishly amend it to whatever fits their current story. Not ever telling us much of the reality of the situation which is that they have no freakin idea and they keep acting like they do. They should never had set any dates until they had a solid production schedule lined up and that is all the pre press work.

[Kryptt]

At this point I don't even think wave one will get manufactured this month.

[Jorel]

where are the pics of VF sprues? I agree. I don't think manufacturing may even begin in May. Hopefully it will be going and finish in June though.

[Kryptt]

It'll be interesting if some of the backers go thru with their promise of legal action. Even if they do or don't have a leg to stand on. I'd love to see a post mortem on this project when it's over to see where things went wrong and things went to s#%&.

[Jorel]

You mean the few time estimates that might have been accurate where they not padded with complete BS?

[Forar]

At this point I don't even think wave one will get manufactured this month.

A lot can happen in 2.5 weeks, but each day that goes by without a big "PRODUCTION HAS BEGUN!" update does make it seem less and less likely.

And 2 months (June, July) isn't exactly a significant amount of time when dealing with intercontinental shipping.

[Kryptt]

There was a lively debate on the ND FB page and now they deleted it. So their solution is to ignore the problem. So aside from no longer giving my $macross to PB, I can apply the same to ND.

[Eclipse]

"Being late" and "needing possibly an extra year and a half on a 7 month project" are two entirely different things. ND doing a ton of the work was supposed to hearten us, and it did. HG being involved may complicate matters, but there were some hopes they might also crack the whip to keep things moving as well. Evidently neither came to pass. Saying "I told you so" to backers who were willing to contribute despite those misgivings, is rather uncouth.

And I disagree. If the miniatures fall short and PB tries to charge top tier prices for them (and at $6-12 per figure for MSRP, they are at a premium), they risk pricing gamers (and thus, themselves) right out of the market. If their business model requires they be sold at wholesale at a certain price to make a profit, and stores struggle to sell them even at a steep discount, the whole thing could become a cluster-shenanigans. Getting 1.4 mil or so in funding from the backers softens that blow considerably, but they clearly want (perhaps even need) this to be a successful source of cash flow.

Bluntly put, no, it's nothing like Vader's speech; they have a plenty vested interest in getting a greater return on their investment than just the initial startup funds. Doubly so in that this is their opportunity to help reintroduce themselves to markets that had long since passed on them. They really don't want or need for that name to be dragged through the mud, based on quality or price for what one gets. The delays and issues with communications are already doing plenty of damage.

No, you're right, they're not that clever/callously calculating to do a "Vader". But uncouth though it might be, their ability to estimate deadlines has been a persistent deficiency, so I stand by my statement - there may be big delays etc on the other end, but I suspect it's the same old story behind their other regular failures to meet self-imposed deadlines - overcommitment through a lack of thorough understanding of the effort and process required to produce those results. It's a common human failing and I won't berate them too much, but *if* anyone was surprised, they're fools. *If* you committed thousands of personal $ that you think are going to bleed away and the miniature quality is going to be personally devastating due to unexpected compromises, then you're doubly a fool, though perhaps just, to be charitable, a romantic fool Everyone else will just have to keep Palladium's toes singed by the flame of their discontent, but mostly, just put up with the delays that will probably continue to blow out.

EDIT: Referring to the multitude of backers, supporters, fans, etc as "fools" is unwarranted and has no place on these forums. -NMI