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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:41 am
  

D-Bee

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It's a pre-2nd edition book, and I doubt Palladium will create an official 2nd edition version of it any time soon, so if I want to use it I need to anticipate what I think they *would* change *if* they were going to update it to 2nd ed.

It's not that it can't be translated, but I can see in 2nd edition that a lot of the changes were intended to rebalance the game a little bit. For example making Acrobatics grant only +1 PP, instead of +1d4 PP.

I'm worried that Ninjas and Superspies might just be plain incompatible with 2nd edition games like Heroes Unlimited. I still want to use it, but just want to be careful to avoid any misunderstandings, so players don't think they're going to get benefits which I end up having to disallow as GM. If there are benefits mentioned in the book which aren't a good idea to allow to the player, I want to be able to warn them of that before they make the character.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:19 am
  

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Comment: The silent thief of Rozrehxeson.
Personally, I wouldn't use it. It's a great game on its own but outside of its own setting it does become very unbalancing. A few times now Palladium's done conversions of a sort to make elements of it fit within their grander Megaverse (Rifts Conversion Book 1 Revised, Rifts: Japan and Rifts: China), but these conversions have only served to contradict each other and the source material, and in all cases they were incomplete.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:55 pm
  

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Comment: Lord of Chaos!
There are several really good hand to hands done in Rifts japan and the china books. Those are what we use. Otherwise we look at the conversion book and see what is needed. As for balance, that's the GM's job.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:47 pm
  

D-Bee

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I guess I'm worried about opening a Pandora's box here. Once players get their hands on something powerful for their character, it's pretty hard to convince them to go back.

Mystic China seems a bit safer, and as near as I can tell it's already 2nd edition material, right? I have a copy of it too.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:07 pm
  

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Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Meh these are supposed to be good HTH styles that outperform most. Simple fix, just add 2 attacks to all starting attacks. Done.

If that means you get 5 or 6, so be it. As GM just be sure to make sure you put the appropriate limits on them since they do take time to learn and depending on the character they better have a damn good explanation as to how hey get some of the more exotic or specialized/elite martial arts. However you will find that most of the HTH styles will just end up with 3-5 to start so it isn't all that bad. Everything else is usable more or less as is, in my opinion.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:15 am
  

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I really enjoy N&SS, but I personally find all Palladium games are best used as stand alone games OR with players who are totally mellow and understand that things may need to be tweaked.

Also, I don't add the 2 attacks/actions. I don't find it adds to the combat, just to the complication. But for me, RPG combat is all about speed and cinematics.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:31 am
  

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Comment: Theres space for a paper airplane race in the eye of a hurricane.
Before I dive into this, I'd first like to ask...

Is there anything you want from Ninjas and Super Spies™ that you cannot already do using Rifts®: China and/or Rifts®: Japan?

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:54 pm
  

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Comment: Jack Chriax: RPA Pilot, Killing Machine, Samuel Jackson Impersonator?
Check conversion book 1 revised they have a section on N&S

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:02 am
  

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calto40k wrote:
Check conversion book 1 revised they have a section on N&S

I agree.... Conversion book is the best place to start on any....Shock..... conversions....

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:59 am
  

D-Bee

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Akashic Soldier wrote:
Before I dive into this, I'd first like to ask...

Is there anything you want from Ninjas and Super Spies™ that you cannot already do using Rifts®: China and/or Rifts®: Japan?



That is a good question to ask. Thanks for asking it.


What I'm going for is I want to do a Heroes Unlimited campaign that has all the OC's of Ninjas and Superspies in it. I like the idea of mutants facing off against secret agents, or teaming up with them, ... etc. I'm going for a world where the CIA, MI6 and groups like that openly recruit mutants, aliens, and etc. The mutants aren't necessarily trained spies (unless they choose spy skills from within the Heroes Unlimited game), but they get hired by MI6 and work alongside spies in the field.

So the martial arts aspect of Ninjas isn't really too important to me. The OC's are what I'm after.

I watched the entire series of "MI-5" (The BBC show) on Netflix, and all of a sudden I really want to play out the kinds of scenarios I saw on that show, except with Mutants and stuff. It's also inspired in part by watching the Venture Brothers cartoon series, which has all of that blended pretty well in it. That's what motivated me to go out and get Ninjas and Superspies, as well as Mystic China. I thought they would give me a good foundation for spy campaigns. (If I can make them compatible with Heroes)


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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:53 am
  

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just add +2 apm to the MAFs.
If you choose to allow HU characters to select MAFs (I would suggest only allowing non-powered classes to do so) require a skill investment of at least one skill package. (I would charge two or three for certain ones like tien su and ninjitsu).

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:43 am
  

D-Bee

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I like the idea of sacrificing a whole skill package. That sounds fair to me.

For Tien Su and Ninjitsu it will require some thought. 2 skill programs instead of one sounds fair. But I want to make sure they take some espionage skills to go with it if they're going to be Ninjas. Or maybe I could choose one of the education levels on the "education table" and turn it into "Ninja". So you can only get Ninjitsu if you roll that level. (4 years college, and Bachelor's degree seem kind of redundant, so maybe eliminate one of them.)

Or I'm thinking perhaps another possibility, looking at the Heroes Unlimited education section in more detail, I see that the Espionage Program includes Martial Arts, so I could say that you can get Ninjitsu for one skill program if you take the Espionage Program also. That way they're at least giving up the free Martial Arts skill they would have gotten from that program. (Because it is now redundant.) That also keeps with the Ninja theme by making sure the character will also be skilled at subterfuge.



As for where to put this in the power table, I think I've decided it will overlap with the "Special Training" section if they roll for Hero Type. The classes in Ninjas and Superspies are conveniently divided into 5 groups, so Ancient Master can go with the Martial Arts Group, Hunter can go with the Mercenaries group, Secret Operative goes with Espionage Agent, Magician goes with Gizmoteer, and Detective goes with Free Agent.

It's all starting to fit nicely together.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:51 am
  

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Comment: The silent thief of Rozrehxeson.
You don't have to add two attacks to the N&SS martial arts if you replace the HU2 combat skills (basic, expert, martial arts and assassin) with the "Agent" martial arts from N&SS. Now everyone will be "on the same page", so to speak. The only class this doesn't benefit is the Physical Training power category.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:23 am
  

D-Bee

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I'm thinking maybe I'll require 1 skill program for Martial Arts that say 10 years or less. And then 2 for any system that says more than 10. Or maybe the cutoff should be lower, like 8 years, and then 3 programs for any Martial art requiring 16 or more years?

But looking at Ninjitsu it grants a lot of skills all on its own. The skills alone would be worth a skill program. So maybe I should require 2 skill programs AND the espionage program to take that one?



Or maybe I'll require players to get HTH: Martial Arts and THEN take their special martial art by giving up a skill program. That way when they use non-approved weapons for their form, I can say the revert to their Martial Arts bonuses (use those instead).


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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:10 pm
  

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Comment: Theres space for a paper airplane race in the eye of a hurricane.
kojax wrote:
That is a good question to ask. Thanks for asking it.

What I'm going for is I want to do a Heroes Unlimited campaign that has all the OC's of Ninjas and Superspies in it. I like the idea of mutants facing off against secret agents, or teaming up with them, ... etc. I'm going for a world where the CIA, MI6 and groups like that openly recruit mutants, aliens, and etc. The mutants aren't necessarily trained spies (unless they choose spy skills from within the Heroes Unlimited game), but they get hired by MI6 and work alongside spies in the field.

So the martial arts aspect of Ninjas isn't really too important to me. The OC's are what I'm after.

I watched the entire series of "MI-5" (The BBC show) on Netflix, and all of a sudden I really want to play out the kinds of scenarios I saw on that show, except with Mutants and stuff. It's also inspired in part by watching the Venture Brothers cartoon series, which has all of that blended pretty well in it. That's what motivated me to go out and get Ninjas and Superspies, as well as Mystic China. I thought they would give me a good foundation for spy campaigns. (If I can make them compatible with Heroes)


No problem. So we are talking an S.D.C. setting. Good to know. Now, I don't have the time to write a proper reply (its 3:05am here and I have a game to run in a few hours) but I don't know if this helps or not, but there are some secret agent/spy O.C.C.s for heroes unlimited in one of the books already. I believe the super soldier can specifically cover these things? Its in Powers Unlimited 2? (I think?) I am not sure. Heroes Unlimited isn't my strong suite and I'd have to go digging through books. That said, if you can find the pre-existing super spy (not the one in Rifts), then you won't need to convert anything. Just use the "type" of O.C.C.s from N&S as "inspiration" when picking your skills and designing the organization. I find that the "key" to being a successful game master is making as little work for you as possible and utilizing material that already exists in a flexible a way as possible. Given the flexibility of Heroes Unlimited, you could REALLY replicate the other O.C.C.s without needing to adapt or convert anything. I hope what I have said here has helped somewhat.

I was very rushed. Please let me know how it goes and how everything unfolds. I'll check back tomorrow night after my game and help further if needed. :ok:

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:42 pm
  

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kojax wrote:
I like the idea of sacrificing a whole skill package. That sounds fair to me.

For Tien Su and Ninjitsu it will require some thought. 2 skill programs instead of one sounds fair. But I want to make sure they take some espionage skills to go with it if they're going to be Ninjas. Or maybe I could choose one of the education levels on the "education table" and turn it into "Ninja". So you can only get Ninjitsu if you roll that level. (4 years college, and Bachelor's degree seem kind of redundant, so maybe eliminate one of them.)
No need for "additional" skills...
The MAFs come prepackaged with skills.
One thing to remember about N&Ss MAFs is that they really are full Skill packages in their own right.
When you take a MAF you get everything that comes with it.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:09 pm
  

D-Bee

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So the system I'm thinking of going with is: your character must have Martial Arts first, then it's 1 full skill program for a N&S martial art that says 10 years or less. 2 Skill programs if it says 11-20 years.

I'm kind of confused about the weapon kata rules. N&S says that you can't use a martial arts form unless you have weapon katas for the weapon you are using, but I don't want to think that a martial arts master armed with a battle axe would be equally effective as someone with no martial arts training who was armed with a battle axe.

That left me confused, so I'm tentatively thinking I'll have the character revert to Martial Arts when using weapons that aren't on the list of approved weapons for their form. But I'm not sure. In my games we haven't worried about it in the past. If a person had a martial arts skill, they got the same bonus to strike/parry/dodge/attacks per melee when using a battle axe as they did when fighting unarmed. We just lumped it all together. Even if you had a gun, you'd still get your dodge bonus and same number of attacks (but not the strike bonus because ranged weapons were seen as different from melee.)

That might not be correct, but it's how we've played it in the past.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:39 am
  

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I would go investigate Rifter 3 and 17 and integrate the conversions they offer.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:29 pm
  

D-Bee

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I managed to get a copy of Rifter #3. Actually it's my brother's but he'll let me use it as long as I want. So looking at the section entitled "Everybody's Kung Fu Fighting" - it looks to me like it's pretty much identical to the rules I was thinking of going with then.

Instead of worrying about the number of years required, it suggests going off of "exclusive" or not "exclusive" status.

The only issue left then is the "kata rules" - which maybe I'll just ignore. Hard to say. I guess it makes sense that you wouldn't use Ninjitsu with a battle axe - but if I want to adopt those rules then I'd have to come up with custom kata rules for "Physical Hero" martial arts also or any other fighting systems I come across - which could get tedious.

I'd still keep the basic martial arts applicable to all weapons. Otherwise it would be a lot less fun to play characters that depend on swords and axes, and etc.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:55 am
  

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Comment: If you have something to say, back it up with thoughts and reasons. Simply posting to agree or disagree tends to be a waste.
Keep the +1d4 to PP. The versions of skills in games like N&SS and TMNT are unique to their settings so you have to go to that dimension to learn them (or possibly could learn that version from a traveler who learned it there). We are not mandated to 'update' old skill stats to the versions from newer games like Dead Reign or RUE.

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 4:54 pm
  

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The problem you get with that is the old version of my character, where I could never be sneak attacked, had +15 to strike hand to hand, 13 attacks per melee, +16 on initiative, 582 MDC and could boost my stats to silly heights on the fly...

Not a godling, not a dragon in disguise, as a human (15 character levels, but still...)

It's much more balanced now.

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 1:52 am
  

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Comment: If you have something to say, back it up with thoughts and reasons. Simply posting to agree or disagree tends to be a waste.
How did you manage to give yourself MDC when chi only adds SDC?

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 8:58 am
  

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Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
My bigger question is how did he have 13 APM when at best I think you can hit 8 maybe 9 in N&SS since the APM and bonuses from 2 MAFs do not stack and are only applicable when using the specified form?

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 1:41 pm
  

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Comment: Evil GM
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jaymz wrote:
My bigger question is how did he have 13 APM when at best I think you can hit 8 maybe 9 in N&SS since the APM and bonuses from 2 MAFs do not stack and are only applicable when using the specified form?
Moo Gi Gong and Hrwang Do being the exceptions to this rule... (But even then they only add up to at best +8 or 9. IIRC)

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Unread postPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 8:05 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: If you have something to say, back it up with thoughts and reasons. Simply posting to agree or disagree tends to be a waste.
Shao-Lin is also an exception (with weapon forms) as is Lee Kwan Choo...

WHY AM I GIVING AWAY MY SECRETS

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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:21 am
  

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MDC might have something to with body harding I thaght that chi powers half sdc as mdc in rifts.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:41 am
  

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Comment: If you have something to say, back it up with thoughts and reasons. Simply posting to agree or disagree tends to be a waste.
Chi powers do 1/2 damage to MDC beings. There's two ways to interpret that:

*a 200 damage chi attack will destroy 1 MDC
*a 200 damage chi attack will destroy 100 MDC

The former literal reading prevents chi from heavily influencing MDC settings, which it logically would do.

The latter (possibly closer to intention but less literal, since it doesn't mention changing damage to MD) lets chi-attackers go crazy though.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:53 pm
  

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Tor wrote:
Keep the +1d4 to PP. The versions of skills in games like N&SS and TMNT are unique to their settings so you have to go to that dimension to learn them (or possibly could learn that version from a traveler who learned it there). We are not mandated to 'update' old skill stats to the versions from newer games like Dead Reign or RUE.
I see it as the fact that they have the advantage of living in a civilized world where you can find a brilliant coach. In Rifts or other MDC environments the PP is far less meaningful. Your dodges and parries are minimally effective vs energy weapons given the penalties. Even with the initiative bonus for absurd PP you aren't getting much. Buffing PS to be able to use support weapons helps survival far more.


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