Archery!

[Eashamahel]

A multi-bladed hunting arrow can be deadly enough to contend with laser guns?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

not sure how you got "laser gun" from ".45 ACP"

edit: nvm, i see you werent replying to me.

[Eashamahel]

Yeah, sorry, I meant to the 'modern weapons in Rifts', but I suppose what was probably meant was 'modern' (ie todays weapons, like said '45 round) weapons in RIFTS, not the weapons that would be modern to Rifts.

[Noon]

I also suspect that nobody at Palladium has any firearm experience at all. If they think it takes 3-5 seconds to re-acquire your sight picture and pull the trigger a second time, they're crazy.

It's a sort of running gag with these boards of how often people say that - and rarely any of them were facing a target that shot back.

[Rimmerdal]

A multi-bladed hunting arrow can be deadly enough to contend with laser guns?

if its a Vibro blade in the right place and you have the right archer..most certainly. ask King Harold at battle of Hasting

[flatline]

I also suspect that nobody at Palladium has any firearm experience at all. If they think it takes 3-5 seconds to re-acquire your sight picture and pull the trigger a second time, they're crazy.

It's a sort of running gag with these boards of how often people say that - and rarely any of them were facing a target that shot back.

It's sort of a running gag with these boards how often people say something without pausing to consider the implications of what they're saying.

For instance, you're saying that in the Palladium universe my rate of fire is pathetically slow because I'm bobbing and weaving and such, right? If that were the case, then how come I can't fire faster when I'm ambushing someone who can't shoot back? Or when I'm immune to their weapon and have no need to be evasive? Both scenarios are easy to set up.

--flatline

[Eashamahel]

Additionally, if you were bobbing and weaving in evasion, wouldn't you be dodging, which DOES remove attacks and thus lower your rate of fire?

[McFacemelt]

I let my players use the RoF as how many arrows can be fired at once.

If RoF for guns = # of rounds fired in an action, then it does for bows as well imo.

[Eashamahel]

So... if my character could fire three arrows/melee, and had four regular attacks, you would let them fire three arrows four times a melee?

[McFacemelt]

So... if my character could fire three arrows/melee, and had four regular attacks, you would let them fire three arrows four times a melee?

So long as each set of 3 is fired at a single target yes.

[Eashamahel]

That fairly quickly becomes an arrow per second.

[Killer Cyborg]

So... if my character could fire three arrows/melee, and had four regular attacks, you would let them fire three arrows four times a melee?

So long as each set of 3 is fired at a single target yes.

Do you use burst penalties to strike?

[McFacemelt]

So... if my character could fire three arrows/melee, and had four regular attacks, you would let them fire three arrows four times a melee?

So long as each set of 3 is fired at a single target yes.

Do you use burst penalties to strike?

Absolutely, I cut their bonus to strike by half.

The PC in question is a fairly new one, level 4, so it certainly has not been a game breaking issue in a game full of robots, power armor and missiles.

I have debated making it more difficult even still by instead applying a cumulative -2 for every arrow after the first, giving the second a -2 to strike off the original strike roll, the 3rd a -4, the 4th a -6, and so on. Once this negative is greater than half to strike I may implement it instead, but that will be some time.

*edited*

[McFacemelt]

That fairly quickly becomes an arrow per second.

I look at it more as a 3 at once type deal.

Also, if you still think its too overpowered you can always make the PC spend one action drawing the bow, and then firing on the second action, like a called or aimed shot.

*edited*

[Rimmerdal]

Okay...the shot that killed the King in the battle of Hastings...Could that happen in Rifts?

[Eashamahel]

Generally it's a TERRIBLE idea to start trying to figure out if X real life event could happen in a RIFTS game. The VAST majority of 'real'/storyline events in RIFTS actually CANNOT happen in the game (descriptions of battles, duels, ect).

[Giant2005]

Generally it's a TERRIBLE idea to start trying to figure out if X real life event could happen in a RIFTS game. The VAST majority of 'real'/storyline events in RIFTS actually CANNOT happen in the game (descriptions of battles, duels, ect).

I can't respond to Rimmerdal's question about the battle of Hastings because I have no idea what that shot was like but I have to disagree that the vast majority of historical events can't be replicated in Rifts. I'd say the opposite to the extent that I am very tempted to declare that yes the shot from the Battle of Hastings absolutely can be replicated in Rifts, simply because the odds are massively in the favour of anything being possible.

[McFacemelt]

Okay...the shot that killed the King in the battle of Hastings...Could that happen in Rifts?

Called shot to the dome, with maybe a d4 for placement on successful hit?
1-jaw
2-nose
3-pick an eye
4-through the skull and out the back

[Eashamahel]

You would need to be able to have a random shot hit the head in the face, in the eye. Random shots hit the main body in palladium. You would then need to do enough damage to kill a person. Chances are unlikely with a single arrow in the Palladium system.

RIFTS in general and the Palladium system aren't great engines to re-create real life situations, since they are built to be a rules-light system based around storytelling. Consider that under the Palladium/RIFTS system, most boxing matches shouldn't go past about 20 punches thrown/attacks made (first person to roll a '20' wins, unless the opponent rolls a 20 as well).

[rat_bastard]

You would need to be able to have a random shot hit the head in the face, in the eye. Random shots hit the main body in palladium. You would then need to do enough damage to kill a person. Chances are unlikely with a single arrow in the Palladium system.

RIFTS in general and the Palladium system aren't great engines to re-create real life situations, since they are built to be a rules-light system based around storytelling. Consider that under the Palladium/RIFTS system, most boxing matches shouldn't go past about 20 punches thrown/attacks made (first person to roll a '20' wins, unless the opponent rolls a 20 as well).

Seeing as though archery gets hand to hand bonuses all you would need is to hit with a character with a death blow ability. Nat 20, target is dead if it past its armor.

[flatline]

You would need to be able to have a random shot hit the head in the face, in the eye. Random shots hit the main body in palladium. You would then need to do enough damage to kill a person. Chances are unlikely with a single arrow in the Palladium system.

RIFTS in general and the Palladium system aren't great engines to re-create real life situations, since they are built to be a rules-light system based around storytelling. Consider that under the Palladium/RIFTS system, most boxing matches shouldn't go past about 20 punches thrown/attacks made (first person to roll a '20' wins, unless the opponent rolls a 20 as well).

Seeing as though archery gets hand to hand bonuses all you would need is to hit with a character with a death blow ability. Nat 20, target is dead if it past its armor.

Say what?

--flatline

[Rimmerdal]

You would need to be able to have a random shot hit the head in the face, in the eye. Random shots hit the main body in palladium. You would then need to do enough damage to kill a person. Chances are unlikely with a single arrow in the Palladium system.

RIFTS in general and the Palladium system aren't great engines to re-create real life situations, since they are built to be a rules-light system based around storytelling. Consider that under the Palladium/RIFTS system, most boxing matches shouldn't go past about 20 punches thrown/attacks made (first person to roll a '20' wins, unless the opponent rolls a 20 as well).

Seeing as though archery gets hand to hand bonuses all you would need is to hit with a character with a death blow ability. Nat 20, target is dead if it past its armor.

Say what?

--flatline

There is a deathblow for ranged? I thought that was class specific to the gun toters and the ancient bowmaster or would that just hth being stacked on the attack? But the rule does state..hth bonuses apply...hmmm. even then the called shot or the "King Killer" (in honor of the king..) is actually possible but highly unlikely.

McFacemelt
Called shot to the dome, with maybe a d4 for placement on successful hit?
1-jaw
2-nose
3-pick an eye
4-through the skull and out the back

a random chart for specific body parts might also apply to limbs too.

Giant2005
I can't respond to Rimmerdal's question about the battle of Hastings because I have no idea what that shot was like but I have to disagree that the vast majority of historical events can't be replicated in Rifts. I'd say the opposite to the extent that I am very tempted to declare that yes the shot from the Battle of Hastings absolutely can be replicated in Rifts, simply because the odds are massively in the favour of anything being possible.

basicly the king was in the normal line he should be and moving forward. at that point some lucky (or extremely flukey) shot by an archer killed the king with a single arrow through one of his eyes..according to legend anyway. Either way luck or fluke...on hell of a shot. I do tend agree the games would seem to favor such a shot as the King killer on pure dramatic effect.

[Killer Cyborg]

You would need to be able to have a random shot hit the head in the face, in the eye. Random shots hit the main body in palladium. You would then need to do enough damage to kill a person. Chances are unlikely with a single arrow in the Palladium system.

RIFTS in general and the Palladium system aren't great engines to re-create real life situations, since they are built to be a rules-light system based around storytelling. Consider that under the Palladium/RIFTS system, most boxing matches shouldn't go past about 20 punches thrown/attacks made (first person to roll a '20' wins, unless the opponent rolls a 20 as well).

Seeing as though archery gets hand to hand bonuses all you would need is to hit with a character with a death blow ability. Nat 20, target is dead if it past its armor.

Say what?

--flatline

As he established earlier, there is a rule that Ancient Weapon Proficiencies allow one to include all HTH bonuses when using that weapon.
WP Archery is an Ancient Weapon Proficiency, therefore all HTH bonuses are included when using that weapon.

At this point, he's including stuff such as "Death Blow on a roll of a Natural 20" as a "HTH Bonus," which I'm not sure really works.
Although, since Palladium doesn't seem to ever define "bonus," I can't say for certain that he's wrong either.

There doesn't seem to be anything in the description of "Death Blow" that excludes ranged weapons from the ability, although guns are specifically excluded, which might be seen as evidence that ranged weapons as a rule are excluded, or that Ancient Weapons are specifically exempt since only guns were specified.

A Death Blow "doubles the normal damage," direct to Hit Points.

I would rule that unless a HTH element is stated as "+x", that x is not a bonus.
"+1 to strike" would be a bonus.
"Kick attack does 1d8 points of damage" would not be a bonus.
Neither would "Death Blow on x" elements.

Oddly enough, though, this standard would mean that "+1 attack per melee" IS a bonus, and therefore applies to WP Archery (although the number of attacks listed at first level would NOT be a bonus).
So a character with HTH Assassin and WP Archery would start off with two shots per melee at level one, and would have five shots per melee at level 2 (+1 attack from WP Archery, +2 attacks from HTH Assassin).
Level 1: 2 shots per melee
Level 2: 5 shots
Level 4: 6 shots
Level 5: 7 shots
Level 8: 9 shots
Level 12: 10 shots
Level 13: 11 shots
Level 14: 12 shots

While I'm not at all sure that this sort of thing is intended, it does make a lot of the ROF problem go away.

[Killer Cyborg]

Okay...the shot that killed the King in the battle of Hastings...Could that happen in Rifts?

Going with the "Arrow To The Eye" theory of King Harold II's death, it would technically require a Called Shot to occur.

How much damage would be necessary for the kill is unknown, since we don't know how many Hit Points or SDC King Harold had, we don't know what level he was, and we don't know whether or not he had taken any previous wounds.

An average person, though, will have an average of 14 Hit Points at first level (average PE of 10.5, with an average of +3.5 HP on top of that).
An average person also starts out with about 19 SDC (7+12) at first level. Although this might not matter, because (RUE 287) "getting shot in the head at point-blank range... will do damage directly to Hit Points, skipping SDC entirely.
So if the shooter was at Point Blank range, inflicting double damage due to a Called Shot, then only 7 points of damage would be needed to kill an average first level character with a head-shot.
That could be done by an average shooter, with an average shot from a long bow, since a long bow inflicts 2d6 damage, and the average damage of such a shot happens to be exactly 7 SDC (3.5+3.5).

[Killer Cyborg]

Another interesting point that I just noticed is that WP Archery includes Harpoon Guns.
The standard damage for a Harpoon Gun is 1d10 SDC, which is noted in the WP Archery description, but there are other Harpoon Guns in the game.

The CSN-20 Speargun, for example, inflicts 2d6 MD to a 10' radius with its fragementation harpoon, 4d6 MD with its HE or plasma harpoons.
The Naut'Yll have a "Harpoon Rifle" that fires "barbed darts" for 1d6 MD each, but I'm not sure if this weapon would count as a true harpoon gun. I can certainly see an argument for it, though.

There are probably some other weapons in more recent books as well, perhaps Lemuria.

[McFacemelt]

McFacemelt
Called shot to the dome, with maybe a d4 for placement on successful hit?
1-jaw
2-nose
3-pick an eye
4-through the skull and out the back

a random chart for specific body parts might also apply to limbs too.

While normally a random chart for location would include limbs, one that is specifically designed for successful called shots to the head would not.

[Eashamahel]

Archery, the skill that involves combining a projectile with 'Hand to Hand' bonuses.

Where's one of those comical Green Arrow boxing glove arrows? And the rest of the Justice League said trick arrows were dumb...

[slade the sniper]

Slightly back on topic, I suppose...

This is a way to kick up the lethality of archery to mid-range handgun caliber... and if you are technically inclined, I am sure you can take it further.

V/r

-STS

[Rimmerdal]

Slightly back on topic, I suppose...

This is a way to kick up the lethality of archery to mid-range handgun caliber... and if you are technically inclined, I am sure you can take it further.

V/r

-STS

they work..would also be a bit more adaptable than premade arrowheads. Could just swap out the 'bullet' for whichever effect you need. I can see that arrow head being used in other games. Praxians would be happy to get them for Xmas.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Archery, the skill that involves combining a projectile with 'Hand to Hand' bonuses.

Where's one of those comical Green Arrow boxing glove arrows? And the rest of the Justice League said trick arrows were dumb...

the boxing glove arrows were definitely comical, but the actual equivalent - a fowling blunt - could pretty easily knock someone out or even break their skull if you shot them with one.

[guardiandashi]

regarding the applying strength damage to bows I am pretty sure the guy that usually GMed the campaign I was in (lots of D&D experience) had no issues with it as long as the bow was made to the characters strength. (and the ammunition could stand up to it as well)

I know in one game my character (godling - minor god) character built a compound style bow to her strength and it was a rather scary thing to observe her using. ...

lets see found the char sheet, looks like the chars primary stat is arguably pp as its noted as godlike 71. str is supernatural 66, so definitely able to do MDC with attacks, the bow is listed as having a range of 2000 ft+ damage as 1D6x10 mdc, and the "standard" arrows she used (has only 20) are DEW head on rebar equivalent shafts. The reason the char in game went to steel (metal) shafts on her arrows was weight was not a factor, but arrow durability was .... after the first time she tried to use a conventional arrow and it was described as exploding and the arrowhead landing at her feet. (the gm's explanation was that the energy transfer was so extreme that the arrow just came apart in the bow.

of course the bow was rather insane to get it able to handle an ~6ton draw as a compound bow. As I remember it the bowstring was superstrong (braided diamond monofilament wire) the bow was fashioned out of monomolecular alloys (essentially mdc spring steel for the "limbs" etc)

the char only used said bow a limited number of times, the first time was she jumped (or was in a tree) and shot a vampire or zombie and "lost the first arrow" (it missed and disappeared into the ground or went straight through the target and "disappeared"

[rat_bastard]

Slightly back on topic, I suppose...

This is a way to kick up the lethality of archery to mid-range handgun caliber... and if you are technically inclined, I am sure you can take it further.

V/r

-STS

That is exactly what I am talking about with the Naruni plasma heads! And Big Bore Heads! I did not know there was a real version of what I had envisioned.

[azazel1024]

Slightly back on topic, I suppose...

This is a way to kick up the lethality of archery to mid-range handgun caliber... and if you are technically inclined, I am sure you can take it further.

V/r

-STS

That is exactly what I am talking about with the Naruni plasma heads! And Big Bore Heads! I did not know there was a real version of what I had envisioned.

I can't see the clip and there is no cut away diagram, but I assume those arrow heads are effectively very tiny metal tubes that you insert the round in to with a firing pin at the rear that is activated when hitting the target?

[Killer Cyborg]

Slightly back on topic, I suppose...

This is a way to kick up the lethality of archery to mid-range handgun caliber... and if you are technically inclined, I am sure you can take it further.

V/r

-STS

That is exactly what I am talking about with the Naruni plasma heads! And Big Bore Heads! I did not know there was a real version of what I had envisioned.

I can't see the clip and there is no cut away diagram, but I assume those arrow heads are effectively very tiny metal tubes that you insert the round in to with a firing pin at the rear that is activated when hitting the target?

Pretty much.
Try this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerhead

[Myrrhibis]

My group *loves* Archery or the original Archery/Targeting skills.

Very few combat-heavy PCs that aren't gun-bunnies, don't take it.

[tsh77769]

Here is a real life example of the same exact concept.

http://www.racembac.com/our-products/bow-mag/

[rat_bastard]

Here is a real life example of the same exact concept.

http://www.racembac.com/our-products/bow-mag/

Scooped

[rat_bastard]

Here is a new bit of coolness with Archery:

W.P. Archery. An expertise with bow weapons of all kinds. The
character can use all manner of bows and arrows, including short bows,
long bows, all types of modern compound bows, harpoon guns and
crossbow pistols, and repeating, light and heavy crossbows: Bonuses:
+1 to strike at levels 1,2,4,6.8, 10. 12 and 14. +1 to parry with a bow
weapon (effective at level one), and +1 to disarm at levels 2, 5, 10 and
15.

A disarm roll is a contested 1d20+disarm bonus versus the defender's d20 roll, this means you can fairly easily shoot the weapon's out of an opponent's hands. My Cyber Knight Archer has a +2 Disarm from her class, A +2 next level from her Hand to hand and a +2 from her Archery skill. That means most people's weapons are not safe from her arrows.

[kaid]

Here is a new bit of coolness with Archery:

W.P. Archery. An expertise with bow weapons of all kinds. The
character can use all manner of bows and arrows, including short bows,
long bows, all types of modern compound bows, harpoon guns and
crossbow pistols, and repeating, light and heavy crossbows: Bonuses:
+1 to strike at levels 1,2,4,6.8, 10. 12 and 14. +1 to parry with a bow
weapon (effective at level one), and +1 to disarm at levels 2, 5, 10 and
15.

A disarm roll is a contested 1d20+disarm bonus versus the defender's d20 roll, this means you can fairly easily shoot the weapon's out of an opponent's hands. My Cyber Knight Archer has a +2 Disarm from her class, A +2 next level from her Hand to hand and a +2 from her Archery skill. That means most people's weapons are not safe from her arrows.

Although really given that archery gets the HTH bonuses if you want to deprive your opponent of their weapon making the called shot with all the pluses to strike archery can get when combined with the HTH bonuses it is probably easier to flat destroy their weapon than disarm them even with the boosts to disarm with archery. Still handy if you suspect your target has a rune weapon or some silly high MDC magic weapon.

[Eashamahel]

Funny image, Cyber-Knight useing a broadhead arrow to knock the railgun out of the SAMAS' hand.

[rat_bastard]

Here is a new bit of coolness with Archery:

W.P. Archery. An expertise with bow weapons of all kinds. The
character can use all manner of bows and arrows, including short bows,
long bows, all types of modern compound bows, harpoon guns and
crossbow pistols, and repeating, light and heavy crossbows: Bonuses:
+1 to strike at levels 1,2,4,6.8, 10. 12 and 14. +1 to parry with a bow
weapon (effective at level one), and +1 to disarm at levels 2, 5, 10 and
15.

A disarm roll is a contested 1d20+disarm bonus versus the defender's d20 roll, this means you can fairly easily shoot the weapon's out of an opponent's hands. My Cyber Knight Archer has a +2 Disarm from her class, A +2 next level from her Hand to hand and a +2 from her Archery skill. That means most people's weapons are not safe from her arrows.

Although really given that archery gets the HTH bonuses if you want to deprive your opponent of their weapon making the called shot with all the pluses to strike archery can get when combined with the HTH bonuses it is probably easier to flat destroy their weapon than disarm them even with the boosts to disarm with archery. Still handy if you suspect your target has a rune weapon or some silly high MDC magic weapon.

Nearly every md weapon has insanely high MDC and if you beat your disarmed foe you can sell their stuff.

[rat_bastard]

Funny image, Cyber-Knight useing a broadhead arrow to knock the railgun out of the SAMAS' hand.

I was thinking more of a big bore exploding arrowhead as we are dealing with robotic strength and under normal circumstances I would not allow a arrow shot with mundane strength to disarm a robot.

[kaid]

Here is a new bit of coolness with Archery:

W.P. Archery. An expertise with bow weapons of all kinds. The
character can use all manner of bows and arrows, including short bows,
long bows, all types of modern compound bows, harpoon guns and
crossbow pistols, and repeating, light and heavy crossbows: Bonuses:
+1 to strike at levels 1,2,4,6.8, 10. 12 and 14. +1 to parry with a bow
weapon (effective at level one), and +1 to disarm at levels 2, 5, 10 and
15.

A disarm roll is a contested 1d20+disarm bonus versus the defender's d20 roll, this means you can fairly easily shoot the weapon's out of an opponent's hands. My Cyber Knight Archer has a +2 Disarm from her class, A +2 next level from her Hand to hand and a +2 from her Archery skill. That means most people's weapons are not safe from her arrows.

Although really given that archery gets the HTH bonuses if you want to deprive your opponent of their weapon making the called shot with all the pluses to strike archery can get when combined with the HTH bonuses it is probably easier to flat destroy their weapon than disarm them even with the boosts to disarm with archery. Still handy if you suspect your target has a rune weapon or some silly high MDC magic weapon.

Nearly every md weapon has insanely high MDC and if you beat your disarmed foe you can sell their stuff.

Most hand weapons in the GMG are listed as having from 15-25 MDC so not really so much high MDC. Only magic weapons have really seriously high MDC although the point about disarming to sell the stuff does apply.

[Eashamahel]

On the subject of the MDC of weapons, I always thought it was interesting that CS weapons were given less MDC than almost any other comparable weapon (8 MDC for a pistol and 18 MDC for a rifle for CS, most others are 10-12 and 24-28 with only Wilks being less durable). It fits well with the early CS stats, with their lower damage (and limited damage in the case of their C-12 being burst restricted) potential, making them a resilient enemy but not super deadly.

[rat_bastard]

The other thing is the SAMAS Railgun is connected to a the armor by a tether (the ammo belt) so disarming it is not as useful as say blowing the wing off or targeting the arm that holds the railgun.

[Akashic Soldier]

THIS is my archer. I made him for a game that never happened. He was later leveled up to about 9th level and is now the wayward older brother (NPC) to one of the female players in my group. Leveled up to level 9 this guy turns into a real monster, but not for the reasons you might think.

[rat_bastard]

Here is mine.

And her equipment list.

[Akashic Soldier]

Here is mine.

And her equipment list.

[rat_bastard]

it's easy to get +19 or 21 to strike if you don't play with the rules as written...

I am using some skills from rifter 30 as well as some other rifter skills but that is with permission.

[rat_bastard]

OK, I'll admit it, I am intoxicated. so I am not ruling anything right now, how would you rule a request that naruni make an arrow with fast hardening foam from rifts Phase world source book page 67-69.