Hera's Insanity

[Tor]

She's built-to-hate, any anyone who ever watched "Mythic Warriors: Guardians of the Legend" or Kevin Sorbo in "The Legendary Journeys" probably hates her by default for all the trouble she gave Herc.

But looking closely at Pantheons today, I noticed something tragic as heck which makes me feel bad for looking down on her as I did.

The description of Cronus (pg 88) mentions four of the servants he created who were around at the time. Hera and her brothers Hades and Poiseidon were swallowed while Zeus escaped. You need a ME of 20+ to escape automatic insanity from being conscious inside his gullet. The boys had a high enough ME, but Hera's (while exceptional by human standards) didn't make the cut.

The odd thing about this is... being in the Chief Titan gives 1 random, 1 neurosis and 2 phobias. Hera has 2 psychoses and 1 obsession.

What this should mean is: Hera has 3 more insanities (2 fears and a neurosis) which we don't even no about. We can assume that either her obsession, paranoia or schizophrenia was her 'random' insanity and that she picked up the other 2 subsequentially.

As there are ways to cure insanity it could be that Hera dealt with her 3 specific ones (the types all Cronus' victims get) but that the random one was too unpredictable to deal with, and was left behind in her psyche, destabilizing her and making her vulnerable to gaining 2 new insanities to replace the 3 she cured. Or maybe they were never cured and are still waiting in the background, secret fears and neurotic behaviour waiting to surface and be discovered by her enemies.

If we look at this in an unbiased way, here is a little goddess girl who got eaten by her dad, was unhinged by the experience, and then feeling indebted to her brother over her rescue, became his consort and wife, only to be flung aside as Zeus tired of her for various reasons. Even if it was the insanity and evil that droze Zeus away... that's not her fault. Hera used to be of a more moral alignment (unprin vs anarch) than Zeus was, and it took time for her to descend into evil as insanity and jealousy gripped her.

Sometimes I think she'd be better off with someone like Hades. Even if she does end up getting hooked up with a Splugorth I think Hades would be cool with that, he seems like an open-minded guy.

[Alrik Vas]

Being open-minded and being "Captain Don't-Give-A-#^%$" are two different things. Though I do see there is a lot of room for Hera to be a sympathetic character.

[The Baron of chaos]

Being open-minded and being "Captain Don't-Give-A-#^%$" are two different things. Though I do see there is a lot of room for Hera to be a sympathetic character.

Yeah she is a character who did not had any chance to start with. It does not help that the title "Captain Don't-Give-A-#^%$" is reserved to Zeus himself...

[boxee]

Yea kinda really dislike all the woman hate in palladium.

[slade the sniper]

Maybe it was bleed over from the divorce?

-STS

[SolCannibal]

Being open-minded and being "Captain Don't-Give-A-#^%$" are two different things. Though I do see there is a lot of room for Hera to be a sympathetic character.

Yeah she is a character who did not had any chance to start with. It does not help that the title "Captain Don't-Give-A-#^%$" is reserved to Zeus himself...

Indeed - being the godess of matrimony must hurt like hell when one's husband is the literal god of ego and self-centered bastards.

[Eashamahel]

Yea kinda really dislike all the woman hate in palladium.

Strange, neither I myself nor anyone I have ever games with has gotten this impression. Start a topic sometime, I would love to see your examples.

More often we get really goofy, 'feminine' things like the GlitterGirl, may it forever be ignored.

The odd thing about this is... being in the Chief Titan gives 1 random, 1 neurosis and 2 phobias. Hera has 2 psychoses and 1 obsession.

What this should mean is: Hera has 3 more insanities (2 fears and a neurosis) which we don't even no about. We can assume that either her obsession, paranoia or schizophrenia was her 'random' insanity and that she picked up the other 2 subsequentially.

The far more likely explanation is that Palladiums NPCs rarely actually follow the exact stats they should have in the system.

[boxee]

Yea kinda really dislike all the woman hate in palladium.

Strange, neither I myself nor anyone I have ever games with has gotten this impression. Start a topic sometime, I would love to see your examples.

More often we get really goofy, 'feminine' things like the GlitterGirl, may it forever be ignored.

The odd thing about this is... being in the Chief Titan gives 1 random, 1 neurosis and 2 phobias. Hera has 2 psychoses and 1 obsession.

What this should mean is: Hera has 3 more insanities (2 fears and a neurosis) which we don't even no about. We can assume that either her obsession, paranoia or schizophrenia was her 'random' insanity and that she picked up the other 2 subsequentially.

The far more likely explanation is that Palladiums NPCs rarely actually follow the exact stats they should have in the system.

Well the big examples are the godesses-
Isis- infected with a microbe
Hera- made evil and insane, there is "modern" mythology that supports this, but not greek mythos
Hel- mechanoid envy, this really makes no sense for a norse godess that is older then time
Freya- attacked by a rival pantheon and poisoned, did the GM really plan on a war between the norse and greeks?

All the listed above will never be known or fixed by players so whay do it? Only Isis has any chance of players helping her.

[Nightmask]

Does that insanity even apply to gods? Plus her insanity is far more readily explained by her just having a completely unfaithful husband who frequently rubs her nose in it and her being too weak (physically and mentally) to stand up to him. She also can't leave him due to her godly portfolio so ends up more in the battered wives syndrome category. True her murderous behavior is still totally unjustified (since she's taking it out on Zeus's victims, victimizing them twice or more if they survive like his illegitimate children) but it's not like we don't see spouses do similar stuff RL and the gods are over-the-top generally when it comes to doing the same things.

[SolCannibal]

Yea kinda really dislike all the woman hate in palladium.

What women hate?

The "star" brand character of Rifts Earth is a woman.

if you talking about Pantheons. Thats CJ Carellas fault. And the mythology isn't kind to women anyway. Zeus (in mythology) being a serial rapist for one.

I'll agree mythology is not exactly known for gender equality - that said Pantheons' take in a bunch of goddesses (in particular Hera, Freya and Sarasvati come to mind) is not exactly helpful either. Specially irksome in the case of Freya (the less said the better), Ishtar (spoiled little princess) & Parvati (tired & bored housewife) who were quite the warrior queen types to hold their own beside any male gods.

[taalismn]

I wonder...anthropologically, Hera might have been an earlier female goddess of prominence that got swept up into the male-dominated Zeus-centered Pantheon, then got increasingly shifted to the background under the religious patriarchy, until Hera became little more than jealous spiteful wife in the lore.
Palladium-wise, having your followers pushed away and your separate power base cut down and diminished only adds to Hera's jealousy and resentment of Zeus Old-Boy.

[boxee]

From a historical point of view I am not sure Hera would be upset in any way as long as there was not claim to the family title/name?

[taalismn]

From a historical point of view I am not sure Hera would be upset in any way as long as there was not claim to the family title/name?

It's about transfer of power; when you have a matriarchal society, your women (especially the elders) have a hotline to the Goddess. But when the balance of power shifts the other way, and it's the MALE god everybody turns to first in matters of daily importance, even if the female deities are still around, they get the lesser amounts of attention, even if their spheres of influence are more relevant(you might not always have thunderstorms rolling through, or wars raging everyday, but you have your daily food to make and domestic tranquility to maintain).
If belief/worship is power to a Palladium entity, then losing even some of that is like in a cut in energy flow/income.

[SolCannibal]

From a historical point of view I am not sure Hera would be upset in any way as long as there was not claim to the family title/name?

It's about transfer of power; when you have a matriarchal society, your women (especially the elders) have a hotline to the Goddess. But when the balance of power shifts the other way, and it's the MALE god everybody turns to first in matters of daily importance, even if the female deities are still around, they get the lesser amounts of attention, even if their spheres of influence are more relevant(you might not always have thunderstorms rolling through, or wars raging everyday, but you have your daily food to make and domestic tranquility to maintain).
If belief/worship is power to a Palladium entity, then losing even some of that is like in a cut in energy flow/income.

It can be a bit more complex and contradictory than that - the dominance of Athena as the ideal war deity while Ares, while the male war god (and more representative of a cynical/low class view of war) got the literary short straw, repeatedly, is one example. Venus interpretation as matron and "defender of the walls" goddess in roman culture another. And sky & rain gods can be pretty relevant to agrarian societies. There are also some mythologists that point to Zeus' many romances originating from the interest of all too many ruling lineages in claiming divine origin to reinforce their authority.

Villainious Hera is a serious case of long-running flanderization, as literature notwithstanding she was actually one of the most worshipped deities in the greek world. In fact i remember reading somewhere she was among the 3 most popular right beside, irony of ironies, Herakles.

That said, the weirdest thing i have ever heard about this is that Herakles and the Twelve Labors might be from a time before Zeus became central to greek religion and originally Hera's consort instead of the son of Zeus.

[taalismn]

[

That said, the weirdest thing i have ever heard about this is that Herakles and the Twelve Labors might be from a time before Zeus became central to greek religion and originally Hera's consort instead of the son of Zeus.

Hardly weird...This IS the culture that brought us Oedipus....

[SolCannibal]

[That said, the weirdest thing i have ever heard about this is that Herakles and the Twelve Labors might be from a time before Zeus became central to greek religion and originally Hera's consort instead of the son of Zeus.

Hardly weird...This IS the culture that brought us Oedipus....

Indeed, but still the idea of some alternate Hera and Herakles as a variant of Ishtar & Tammuz is a most peculiar one.

[boxee]

Well one thing about that is, and mind you I might be wrong. Is that Hera was the typical good wife stood by her husband and ignored his affairs. While Ishtar was more lustful herself and vengful. Or am I wrong in this?

[SolCannibal]

Well one thing about that is, and mind you I might be wrong. Is that Hera was the typical good wife stood by her husband and ignored his affairs. While Ishtar was more lustful herself and vengful. Or am I wrong in this?

You do know we were talking of a possible, earlier version of Hera before Zeus took upon the role of chief deity in greek religion and the possibility of Herakles and the Twelve Labors actually being remnants of this older than Zeus mythic cycle? Just checking.

[Hotrod]

Yea kinda really dislike all the woman hate in palladium.

Strange, neither I myself nor anyone I have ever games with has gotten this impression. Start a topic sometime, I would love to see your examples.

More often we get really goofy, 'feminine' things like the GlitterGirl, may it forever be ignored.

The odd thing about this is... being in the Chief Titan gives 1 random, 1 neurosis and 2 phobias. Hera has 2 psychoses and 1 obsession.

What this should mean is: Hera has 3 more insanities (2 fears and a neurosis) which we don't even no about. We can assume that either her obsession, paranoia or schizophrenia was her 'random' insanity and that she picked up the other 2 subsequentially.

The far more likely explanation is that Palladiums NPCs rarely actually follow the exact stats they should have in the system.

Well the big examples are the godesses-
Isis- infected with a microbe
Hera- made evil and insane, there is "modern" mythology that supports this, but not greek mythos
Hel- mechanoid envy, this really makes no sense for a norse godess that is older then time
Freya- attacked by a rival pantheon and poisoned, did the GM really plan on a war between the norse and greeks?

All the listed above will never be known or fixed by players so whay do it? Only Isis has any chance of players helping her.

Mortals aren't meant to fix the gods. And for all that there are some examples of the goddesses going cuckoo-pants, there's plenty of dude gods who lose their marbles, too.

Thoth: Perhaps the greatest Old One, he's all amnesia and forgetfulness now.
Quetzalcotl: Driven bonkers by Tezcatlipoca for a short time, he did some bad things, including almost killing his brother. After coming to his senses, he decides to run away and hide in shame for centuries.
Hoknar: Walks through life whining about having the wrong name, using that as an excuse every time something goes wrong.

Likewise, there are plenty of respectable goddesses, many of them in Pantheons:
Athena, Artemis, Apis, Bennu, Surya, Ratri, Parvati, Armaiti, Haurvatat, Ameretat, Anahita, Epim, Ippotomi.

If you broaden it out to NPC's, you'll find many worthy women, and women of power, throughout Palladium's products. This isn't Conan book-cover chauvinism.

[boxee]

Well one thing about that is, and mind you I might be wrong. Is that Hera was the typical good wife stood by her husband and ignored his affairs. While Ishtar was more lustful herself and vengful. Or am I wrong in this?

You do know we were talking of a possible, earlier version of Hera before Zeus took upon the role of chief deity in greek religion and the possibility of Herakles and the Twelve Labors actually being remnants of this older than Zeus mythic cycle? Just checking.

I do, but I was saying I do not agree with the anology based on the personalities involved. I understand many gods follow the same stories.
I especially like the old norse gods tie in to the bible.

[SolCannibal]

Well one thing about that is, and mind you I might be wrong. Is that Hera was the typical good wife stood by her husband and ignored his affairs. While Ishtar was more lustful herself and vengful. Or am I wrong in this?

You do know we were talking of a possible, earlier version of Hera before Zeus took upon the role of chief deity in greek religion and the possibility of Herakles and the Twelve Labors actually being remnants of this older than Zeus mythic cycle? Just checking.

I do, but I was saying I do not agree with the anology based on the personalities involved. I understand many gods follow the same stories.
I especially like the old norse gods tie in to the bible.

And my point was that the personalities involved reflect the different phases of the myth cycle - an Hera that throws away her consort - not husband - Herakles and puts him through the Labors to gain her forgiveness is not quite the Hera we are used to and possibly closer to Ishtar.

And truth be told there's a lot of middle eastern "orientalizing" imagery and influences in greek art & literature. And at least one very good book on the subject: http://books.google.com.br/books/about/The_Orientalizing_Revolution.html?id=cIiUL7dWqNIC&redir_esc=y

[taalismn]

[That said, the weirdest thing i have ever heard about this is that Herakles and the Twelve Labors might be from a time before Zeus became central to greek religion and originally Hera's consort instead of the son of Zeus.

Hardly weird...This IS the culture that brought us Oedipus....

Indeed, but still the idea of some alternate Hera and Herakles as a variant of Ishtar & Tammuz is a most peculiar one.

Given how Palladium notes that god-entities sometimes masquerade as other pantheons to steal followers and stir up trouble, it's entirely possible in-game universe.

Now I have this image of Palladium Hera indulging herself, when nobody's looking, in some distant universe going incognito as a friendly, reasonable marriage counselor who actually HELPS out troubled couples, and immersing herself in the fantasy that she's straightening out her own entanglements, petty jealousies, and spiteful intrigues in a constructive and peaceful manner....

[SolCannibal]

Indeed, but still the idea of some alternate Hera and Herakles as a variant of Ishtar & Tammuz is a most peculiar one.

Given how Palladium notes that god-entities sometimes masquerade as other pantheons to steal followers and stir up trouble, it's entirely possible in-game universe.

Now I have this image of Palladium Hera indulging herself, when nobody's looking, in some distant universe going incognito as a friendly, reasonable marriage counselor who actually HELPS out troubled couples, and immersing herself in the fantasy that she's straightening out her own entanglements, petty jealousies, and spiteful intrigues in a constructive and peaceful manner....

Now i'm remembering the Kid Eternity story where Athena & Aphrodite convinced Hera to join them in the mortal world for a "girls night out".
Zeus was really not amused at all.

[Tor]

Yea kinda really dislike all the woman hate in palladium.

Well you have to hate SOME women, the villains can't be exclusively men or anything. But I think Hera is potentially more of a Tolmet, an evil-aligned goddess with a sad (if somewhat subtler) backstory about how she got that way which makes you empathize with her. Lista too. I'll take them over the twisted puritanical 'burn you pure' types like Rurga and Isis and Athena any day.

Everyone also loves Cihuacoatl and Amon for their love triangle with Splynncryth.

Sexy as Ishtar is, she's got kinda of a dark past, even if she did kinda repent for it. For some reason the way she treated Tammuz bothers me way more than all of Amon's atrocities. It's like at least with Amon you get she's all messed off because Thoth is an irresponsible powerful guy who is going to destroy the Megaverse and we need to be rid of him and she's the only one who sees it.

being the godess of matrimony must hurt like hell when one's husband is the literal god of ego and self-centered bastards.

Zeus isn't utterly self-centered, he does care for the women in his life, gets upset at Atlantean genocides. His problem I think is a lack of duty to his sister-wife, like he gave up on not knowing how to deal with the insanity being in your dad's gut a couple years deals you.

The far more likely explanation is that Palladiums NPCs rarely actually follow the exact stats they should have in the system.

Eh, it's not so much 'stats' though, insanities are more of a roleplaying element if anything. I take it that sometimes not all aspects of NPCs are written out for us. This is why Thoth's being a Stone Master is mentioned in Rifts Africa, but not in Dragons & Gods. Assuming this is the same dude, he is still one of those regardless of where he is, but we don't always see every part of the elephant. Hera is probably like that too. Listing all of her insanities might have taken up too much space, so we only got to see the ones she didn't get from her dad.

Well the big examples are the godesses-
Isis- infected with a microbe
Hera- made evil and insane, there is "modern" mythology that supports this, but not greek mythos
Hel- mechanoid envy, this really makes no sense for a norse godess that is older then time
Freya- attacked by a rival pantheon and poisoned, did the GM really plan on a war between the norse and greeks?

All the listed above will never be known or fixed by players so whay do it? Only Isis has any chance of players helping her.

That isn't an example of them not following the rules though. Isis was the introduction of new rules unique to the unique microbe only inflicted on her so far. ALL the gods deviate from some way from their mythos (or do we think Cronus was always a tentacle monster?) so Hera doing so isn't exactly the hugest leap. I'm sure if we asked some Hindus they could explain some huge problems with the gods for us. Hera just got Sorbo-fied.

What is wrong with Hel envying the Mechanoids? She's older than time? This version of her likes their destructive capacity. She wants their psi, obv.

Freya being attacked by Hera is hardly the first hint at inter-pantheon conflict in Pantheons. Pretty much every pantheon has notes at the start explaining their relationship with other pantheons, fights they've had in the past, etc. There's actually a pair of brothers split between the Hindu and Persian pantheon, I think, and it hints at Aphrodite coming from the Sumerians, and Egyptian Bast is hanging out in South Africa.

Does that insanity even apply to gods?

Eeyup. Otherwise I'm not sure why they would list it. It mentions no exception being a god. The main benefit to being a god that Cronus eats is there's no risk of him wiping out your personality or consuming you entirely. Gods get the privilege of surviving the experience to risk being harrowed by it, something morals generally do not.

It's actually quite a frightening ability, arguable the strongest in the Megaverse. If Cronus hadn't been imprisoned... well... think if he ate a million people, which probably wouldn't be that hard for him. I'm sure Apsu and Nxla are happy that guy's locked up.

her insanity is far more readily explained by her just having a completely unfaithful husband who frequently rubs her nose in it and her being too weak (physically and mentally) to stand up to him.

No it isn't. Insanity is more readily explained by childhood trauma (like, y'know, having your father betray and EAT you) than by having an unfaithful spouse. God.

She also can't leave him due to her godly portfolio so ends up more in the battered wives syndrome category.

Getting cheated on makes you battered now? Lol. Epim deals with Od doing pretty much the same thing among Palladium's Northern Gods, so I don't think this would be enough to cause insanities. Getting cheated on sucks but it's not a trauma itself, you have to be unbalanced to begin with to gain an insanity from that. Zeus's behaviour is hardly unique among gods, especially the Greek ones.

True her murderous behavior is still totally unjustified (since she's taking it out on Zeus's victims, victimizing them twice or more if they survive like his illegitimate children) but it's not like we don't see spouses do similar stuff RL and the gods are over-the-top generally when it comes to doing the same things.

Yeah but Hera has an exemplary ME, most people with her ME (not to mention godly powers and confidence) would not be so ruffled by that. Childhood trauma by being cannibalized by your dad and trapped in and endless void you may never escape is a slightly better potential explanation for insanity, methinks.

Something Zeus can't really understand because he didn't have to go through it. She should have married Hades or Poseidon, they would've been nicer I think.

The "star" brand character of Rifts Earth is a woman.

Psh, overrated narrator more like. If we look to guys with the power to DO something like Plato it's a bro.

Zeus (in mythology) being a serial rapist for one.

It's not rape if you're a swan.

Pantheons' take in a bunch of goddesses (in particular Hera, Freya and Sarasvati come to mind) is not exactly helpful either. Specially irksome in the case of Freya (the less said the better)

What's wrong with Freya exactly? That she enjoys sex?

Ishtar (spoiled little princess)

Not exactly little, and she's ripe, not spoiled. Ishtar is kind of how you might expect someone with that level of power to act. A lot of people's morality is led from fear and gods tend to lack that. Even though her betrayal of Tammuz would mean, well, people get petty, and she doesn't claim to be moral ro anything.

Parvati (tired & bored housewife) who were quite the warrior queen types to hold their own beside any male gods.

Freya is mentioned as being the head Valkrie, Ishtar is still a war goddess, and Parvati is mentioned as being a brutal-fierce demon-destroying order guardian. She stood up to Indra when he was mocking Agni for losing to her... where do we get the indication Parvati's a bored housewife? Falling for Agni because he's freakin' awesome like Prince Pyrus doesn't mean you're a bored wife. Disliking your husband doesn't make you any less a warrior or take over your personality.

the weirdest thing i have ever heard about this is that Herakles and the Twelve Labors might be from a time before Zeus became central to greek religion and originally Hera's consort instead of the son of Zeus.

Hardly weird...This IS the culture that brought us Oedipus....

Herakles was... Hera's squeeze?

the Kid Eternity story where Athena & Aphrodite convinced Hera to join them in the mortal world for a "girls night out".

I'd like to know which issue had that, sounds cool.

[SolCannibal]

being the godess of matrimony must hurt like hell when one's husband is the literal god of ego and self-centered bastards.

Zeus isn't utterly self-centered, he does care for the women in his life, gets upset at Atlantean genocides. His problem I think is a lack of duty to his sister-wife, like he gave up on not knowing how to deal with the insanity being in your dad's gut a couple years deals you.

Well, i'll concede that Rifts tries to make him somewhat less of one. That said a god devouring his previous wive because he fears she might one day bear a child stronger than him (Metis, mother of Athena), or using a minor titan's (Prometeus) gifts to humanity as an excuse to put him under ages of torture to force him into revealing what he must do avoid ever having such a child. Not to mention the trouble he knows each and every mortal or immortal woman he beds will suffer through and does basically nothing to actually help.

So it's good that he suffers the occasional pangs of guilt as it might be one of the only things beside the humanoid form separating him from alien intelligences and things like his father.

Pantheons' take in a bunch of goddesses (in particular Hera, Freya and Sarasvati come to mind) is not exactly helpful either. Specially irksome in the case of Freya (the less said the better)

What's wrong with Freya exactly? That she enjoys sex?

What bothers me most is the "Freya served for a while as Odin's chief valkyrie where she learned the skills of a warrior, but decided that she didn't like that life" sentence in CB2 stands somewhere between a joke and a offense as Freya is the ruler of half of those that die in combat, with Valkyrie army and a hall/realm of her own, Sessrúmnir, dividing the brave dead (and power) with Odin and his hall, Valhalla. Beside that she's known for her mastery of a form of magic/clairvoyance and one of the few Odin did not learn on his own and to have tricked Odin in matters of destiny and war at least once. So in just one sentence they reduced a female version of Odin to a norse Aphrodite. 10th level ley line walker and 6th level valkyrie, seriously?

Freya's portrayal as a confident, self-assured, anything but demure goddess that will let no man control her lifestyle is a great thing, mythologically correct and something i applaud - or would, if she wasn't reduced to just that only to have even that element taken away from her by Hera's curse-potion of near-suicidal man-hate.

Ishtar (spoiled little princess)

Not exactly little, and she's ripe, not spoiled. Ishtar is kind of how you might expect someone with that level of power to act. A lot of people's morality is led from fear and gods tend to lack that. Even though her betrayal of Tammuz would mean, well, people get petty, and she doesn't claim to be moral or anything.

Of the goddesses mentioned Ishtar's portrayal is the one that bothers me less. I'll be the first to concede that, yes, she can be petty like that indeed in myth and while no Athena they at least gave her some passable stats for her warrior goddess role - what we unfortunately get nothing on.

Parvati (tired & bored housewife) who were quite the warrior queen types to hold their own beside any male gods.

Freya is mentioned as being the head Valkrie, Ishtar is still a war goddess, and Parvati is mentioned as being a brutal-fierce demon-destroying order guardian. She stood up to Indra when he was mocking Agni for losing to her... where do we get the indication Parvati's a bored housewife? Falling for Agni because he's freakin' awesome like Prince Pyrus doesn't mean you're a bored wife. Disliking your husband doesn't make you any less a warrior or take over your personality.

But it does get terribly bothersome when the only thing akin to a plot hook for this major warrior goddess is an "i've gotten tired of my mega-jerk husband and starting to look at this other god but unsure because i know the bloody mess it can turn into" out of some bad desperate housewives episode. It's specially galling because they do get us an idea of the major butt-kicker she is and instead of giving us some decent plot like going after Kali to put the bastard back inside her own head or gullet she should never have left, finding out the whereabouts of her son Skanda and rescuing/leading an epic campaign of Splugorth expulsion with him or deciding to go in some quest to deal with her propensity to develop new aspects that generated the mess that is her renegade aspect, we get some second-rate damsel in danger moment that sets up soap opera drivel. Also, Kali is basically better than her at almost everything, wth.

Seriously, the males deities get treated as adventurers writ big with cosmic power - would it hurt too much to have given the goddesses the same treatment? Except for the persians ones, it looked like a goddess has to be virgin (Artremis, Athena) or evil (Ereshkigal, Hel or Kali among others) not to get the short straw on fluff.

the weirdest thing i have ever heard about this is that Herakles and the Twelve Labors might be from a time before Zeus became central to greek religion and originally Hera's consort instead of the son of Zeus.

Hardly weird...This IS the culture that brought us Oedipus....

Herakles was... Hera's squeeze?

In a very archaic take of greek religion - yes, it's possible that he was not Zeus' son but something quite different but centuries and literature twisted/tweaked things about an ancient hero to popular to simply ignore and put under the rug.

the Kid Eternity story where Athena & Aphrodite convinced Hera to join them in the mortal world for a "girls night out".

I'd like to know which issue had that, sounds cool.

I can say for sure, but kid Eternity had about 16 issues, so you might get it and a whole lot of other stuff, all in one volume, like this: http://misc.thefullwiki.org/Kid_Eternity_Vol_3

[taalismn]

Indeed, but still the idea of some alternate Hera and Herakles as a variant of Ishtar & Tammuz is a most peculiar one.

Given how Palladium notes that god-entities sometimes masquerade as other pantheons to steal followers and stir up trouble, it's entirely possible in-game universe.

Now I have this image of Palladium Hera indulging herself, when nobody's looking, in some distant universe going incognito as a friendly, reasonable marriage counselor who actually HELPS out troubled couples, and immersing herself in the fantasy that she's straightening out her own entanglements, petty jealousies, and spiteful intrigues in a constructive and peaceful manner....

Now i'm remembering the Kid Eternity story where Athena & Aphrodite convinced Hera to join them in the mortal world for a "girls night out".
Zeus was really not amused at all.

Maxed out his credit cards, did they?

Better than a night out with Artemis; she tends to sic her dogs on peeping toms.

[SolCannibal]

Indeed, but still the idea of some alternate Hera and Herakles as a variant of Ishtar & Tammuz is a most peculiar one.

Given how Palladium notes that god-entities sometimes masquerade as other pantheons to steal followers and stir up trouble, it's entirely possible in-game universe.

Now I have this image of Palladium Hera indulging herself, when nobody's looking, in some distant universe going incognito as a friendly, reasonable marriage counselor who actually HELPS out troubled couples, and immersing herself in the fantasy that she's straightening out her own entanglements, petty jealousies, and spiteful intrigues in a constructive and peaceful manner....

Now i'm remembering the Kid Eternity story where Athena & Aphrodite convinced Hera to join them in the mortal world for a "girls night out".
Zeus was really not amused at all.

Maxed out his credit cards, did they?

That and she was having better luck than him that night until they came across each other.

Better than a night out with Artemis; she tends to sic her dogs on peeping toms.

Well, some might like to try it out just to know how much of a party animal she really is.

[SolCannibal]

Not exactly a mystery...But Roman men, preferred men. Such as for their art and other activities.

Just keeping it real.

Actually that was more of a greek thing and one that some romans would disparage as so.

[The Baron of chaos]

Most Greek/roman myths tend to depict the gods as....well not nice people at all. Remeber the intro of Xena show...that was surprisingly accurate in describing the greek deities...

[cornholioprime]

Most Greek/roman myths tend to depict the gods as....well not nice people at all. Remeber the intro of Xena show...that was surprisingly accurate in describing the greek deities...

The Greeks simply believed that Gods just aren't bound to the same definition of "morality" as regular humans are. (By the way, there is actually a certain logic to that line of thinking, as cruel as this would be for the humans under the rule of any god.)


Not all that uncommon a concept across the various theologies of man that have come down through the years.

[SolCannibal]

I once read in an ancient history book that the main difference between a god and a monster in myth is which inhuman elemental force accepts molification and praise and may spare and sometimes even do someone a favor because of it.

[The Baron of chaos]

I once read in an ancient history book that the main difference between a god and a monster in myth is which inhuman elemental force accepts molification and praise and may spare and sometimes even do someone a favor because of it.

And this is, not so oddly, fitting what we know about gods in Rifts setting. Most of them are a sinhuman and alien as alien intelligence and otherworld entities, that they are by the way. Sure they have a better empathy toward mortals due their symbiotic link with their prayers, but this does not make them completely "get it". Mortals could see insanity and wickedness where is instead a completely alien and incomprehensible mind, who is the embodiment of an abstract idea, who is , in part at least, shaped by its worshippers(dislike alien intelligences), and whose immortality ccause an dimpossible to fill gap between them and mortals(example are the Indian spirits who meants good in bringing their faithful back on earth but , being immortal and uncaring of small things like passage of time, and sickness and people thinking differently, caused more trouble than else to everyone.). Infact in case of Hera , could also be the little fact that the base idea she embody had changed a lot in these times, and well she does not cope well with it.
Very few gods do, actually, expecially when come to earth, they did not take the cultural, social and technological change that well...only the knowledge deities seem to be more adaptable and prone to be in the loop and up to date. Others range from rigid crystallization(it work for me , it will work for my followers as well), uncaring behaviour(oh yeah the white men carried sickness, forgot bout that...) to reclusive "hoarding" behaviour(I'll build MY city filled wiht MY followers who will EXACTLY like me and BEHAVE exactly like i say.) to even total psychotic collapse and delusion(Hey that Splynn seem such nice and cute guy copared to my family and he has the cutest tentacles...).
Hear could be insane but the rest of the deities is hardly any better in Rifts Earth.

[SolCannibal]

A very interesting point Baron - that said "the cutest tentacles" reference comes from a certain deity that is far from deluded - just that much peculiar and twisted in preferences, psychopath in her lack of a conscience mostly. A bit of a silly nitpick, but Cihuacoatl is not exactly typical of gods of either light or darkness.

[The Baron of chaos]

A very interesting point Baron - that said "the cutest tentacles" reference comes from a certain deity that is far from deluded - just that much peculiar and twisted in preferences, psychopath in her lack of a conscience mostly. A bit of a silly nitpick, but Cihuacoatl is not exactly typical of gods of either light or darkness.

Well she is good example of deities being hard to fit in usual "good/bad" scheme. And on the other side she is deluded in "i expect Splynncryth to keep his word of honor and empathize with my pleas" sense...to be honest that should be a psychological condition unto by itself.
I should add alos the the odd symbiotic relation that deities have with the cultural zetgeist that shaped them, make them embody very different version of the same concept. Fertility means different thing for Greek, Mayans, Norse, American Indians, Hindu and Egyptians. Is interesting notice that is really hard for gods to pinpoint if they are the one enforcing that type of culture or are simply reflecting that. Is blurred for them and for worshippers alike.
Alien Intelligences on the other hand, are well alien even more. If the gods live in symbiosis with mortals, Alien intelligences see mortals like...hmmm...a commodity at best...consider that for most of them mortals sufferences and pain is like cocaine to them and you've a recipe for..well..everything going on wiht Alien intelligences at any time.

[Tor]

i'll concede that Rifts tries to make him somewhat less of one. That said a god devouring his previous wive because he fears she might one day bear a child stronger than him (Metis, mother of Athena), or using a minor titan's (Prometeus) gifts to humanity as an excuse to put him under ages of torture to force him into revealing what he must do avoid ever having such a child.

I'm not clear whether or not all aspects of myths such as these are canon in Rifts, though. Plus even if they were, this could mean that Zeus was more of an evil alignment in the past and may have, over a couple millenia, improved from Miscreant to Anarchist or something, feeling bad about what he did. Not a huge stretch.

Your idea certainly is great fuel for the stated rebellion that Athena/Hera/Poseidon engaged in though.

Not to mention the trouble he knows each and every mortal or immortal woman he beds will suffer through and does basically nothing to actually help.

We don't really know that. Heck, the daughter of Zeus in Splynn seems to be hinted at having sort of a guardian angel. If Zeus is helping the women he beds, he'd probably do it in subtle ways to avoid making them targets by making it seem like he cares.

What bothers me most is the "Freya served for a while as Odin's chief valkyrie where she learned the skills of a warrior, but decided that she didn't like that life" sentence in CB2 stands somewhere between a joke and a offense as Freya is the ruler of half of those that die in combat, with Valkyrie army and a hall/realm of her own, Sessrúmnir, dividing the brave dead (and power) with Odin and his hall, Valhalla.

Yeah but that was back then. What's wrong with not wanting to be a warrior anymore? She still has the skills, and may still rule over half of the dead in her own hall (pretty sure all the Norse share one great realm?) but she can still go have fun and stuff.

Rurga is mentioned in D&G as having lead a long warrior life and then deciding to hang it up, does that make her less? Lots of great non-warrior NPCs and I don't think deciding you don't want to fight as much makes you less of a character, nor does it insult you.

Beside that she's known for her mastery of a form of magic/clairvoyance and one of the few Odin did not learn on his own and to have tricked Odin in matters of destiny and war at least once. So in just one sentence they reduced a female version of Odin to a norse Aphrodite. 10th level ley line walker and 6th level valkyrie, seriously?

That's all we KNOW about. =) You don't think gods only have the OCCs that just happen to get mentioned, do you?

Thoth has OCCs in Egypt that aren't listed in Dragons & Gods, and vice versa.

Odds are if Frey has other abilities, she just doesn't show them off, so nobody knows about them.

Freya's portrayal as a confident, self-assured, anything but demure goddess that will let no man control her lifestyle is a great thing, mythologically correct and something i applaud - or would, if she wasn't reduced to just that only to have even that element taken away from her by Hera's curse-potion of near-suicidal man-hate.

Well... I'm not confident any god is all that they seem... and that element isn't so much taken away as submerged.

Perhaps if she snaps out of the potion (maybe under her own power) she'll realize she was living too emotionally, forgetting the value of self-defense skills, and launch herself back into developing her skills or practicing forgotten ones.

they at least gave her some passable stats for her warrior goddess role - what we unfortunately get nothing on.

We don't get a huge deal on the behaviours of a lot of gods. I can't remember much about Athena herself besides some past rebellion against Zeus and joining in generic battles of Light. On Ares all that comes to mind is him getting captured in that net by Hephaestus.

it does get terribly bothersome when the only thing akin to a plot hook for this major warrior goddess is an "i've gotten tired of my mega-jerk husband and starting to look at this other god but unsure because i know the bloody mess it can turn into" out of some bad desperate housewives episode.

I don't think that's Parvati's only plothook. Surely Kali and what she represents counts as something. Not to mention how she stands up for herself against other male gods who mock women.

instead of giving us some decent plot like going after Kali to put the bastard back inside her own head or gullet she should never have left, finding out the whereabouts of her son Skanda and rescuing/leading an epic campaign of Splugorth expulsion with him or deciding to go in some quest to deal with her propensity to develop new aspects that generated the mess that is her renegade aspect, we get some second-rate damsel in danger moment that sets up soap opera drivel.

I think because the Skanda thing just happened, and Kali is a hard issue for her to deal with since her husband married her =/

Also, Kali is basically better than her at almost everything, wth.

Evil bizarro shadow versions often are. Some antagonists are fated to be better. Thor doesn't stand a chance of defeating that Midguard serpent. Even if he starts with some range, it's going to close into melee (especially if it manages to bite his hammer if he throws it) and his parry bonuses won't help because this thing has no incentive to do anything bit simultaneous attack.

Seriously, the males deities get treated as adventurers writ big with cosmic power - would it hurt too much to have given the goddesses the same treatment?

Epim is way scarier than Od in D&G I find. How can disguising yourself as a dragon compare to REWINDING TIME ?

Except for the persians ones, it looked like a goddess has to be virgin (Artremis, Athena) or evil (Ereshkigal, Hel or Kali among others) not to get the short straw on fluff.

Where does it say Athena's a virgin?

Better than a night out with Artemis; she tends to sic her dogs on peeping toms.

Her love extends to Coalition Dog Boys. I sometimes wonder how far it extends. She may keep to her promise to remain a virgin but... there's still ways to enjoy recreation in her game preserve pocket dimension.

Not exactly a mystery...But Roman men, preferred men. Such as for their art and other activities. Just keeping it real.

that was more of a greek thing and one that some romans would disparage as so.

Getting back to Zeus...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Budweiser1906.jpg

A very interesting point Baron - that said "the cutest tentacles" reference comes from a certain deity that is far from deluded - just that much peculiar and twisted in preferences, psychopath in her lack of a conscience mostly. A bit of a silly nitpick, but Cihuacoatl is not exactly typical of gods of either light or darkness.

I resent your implication that liking tentacles is a twisted preference.

By what justification do you condemn Cihuacoatl as a psychopath, or lacking in conscience? What acts of hers do you condemn?

she is deluded in "i expect Splynncryth to keep his word of honor and empathize with my pleas" sense...to be honest that should be a psychological condition unto by itself.

[/quote]Why? You don't have to be principled or aberrent to be honourable. Cihuacoatl rightly recognizes that while Splynncryth might lie to and cheat most lesser beings, she is up on his level and it would be unwise of him not to keep his word. He can also relate to her, and thus empathize, just as she can empathize with him.

[taalismn]

Most Greek/roman myths tend to depict the gods as....well not nice people at all. Remeber the intro of Xena show...that was surprisingly accurate in describing the greek deities...

The Greeks simply believed that Gods just aren't bound to the same definition of "morality" as regular humans are. (By the way, there is actually a certain logic to that line of thinking, as cruel as this would be for the humans under the rule of any god.)


Not all that uncommon a concept across the various theologies of man that have come down through the years.

And certainly explains why bad things happen to good people...it's because you don't try to pretend to understand the vagaries of Olympian thought.