Advice of dealing with a heavy Cyborg in the Dinosaur Swamps

[Nightmask]

Reread the thread. Other than that I suppose that I am just sadistic GM and like to constantly harass players.

I've read the thread. There is no evidence to suggest they aren't sealed and there is specific evidence to suggest they are...specifically, the gills...which only exist for those times when you're going to exceed the capacity of the bionic lung and the depth gauge, which tells you when you get WITHIN ONE HUNDRED FEET of one's depth limit. That directly states that the depth limit is over 100 feet, and is likely substantially so, since they'd know perfectly well they were within 100 feet of their limit if it wasn't over 101 feet (or the like).

/Sub

OR
The Depth Gauge is designed for Cyborgs using the Diving armor, which gives them a maximum depth of a 1.7 miles. So yes, their Max Depth is over 100 ft,
When wearing special armor.

Now if there was actually something that said Borgs have depth tolerance X than that would be a whole different story.

There's nothing saying that normal humans have a depth tolerance of X.
Does that mean that they're not waterproof?

Normal humans aren't waterproof. They prune via water absorption through their skin. Water can also enter through the eyes, mouth, and nose in less than 5 ft of water. But obviously that is not the point of your example.

I assume you intend "if all other things are X then why shouldn't Y be X as well?".

I have found another piece of text in Japan:
"Environmental Upgrade:
The exterior of the Cyborg is sealed to keep oxygen from leaking and to protect from outside contaminants and toxins. Radiation Shielding and internal temperature control are included in this upgrade which enable the Cyborg to operate in hostile environments like underwater or outerspace"

That reads pretty clearly to me that Cyborgs are not sealed to operate underwater.

THANK YOU GLITTERBOY
Now this stupid argument can be over. Although it would also appear that we have to contradictory pieces of information

That's only clear to you. Rifts: Japan has its own cyborg designs as well (and the book is somewhat contradictory anyway, having stuff that seems unnecessary or off), it may be that due to their cultural outlooks on things Japanese manufacture cyborgs don't come as environmentally sound as others from other lands. So you can't use Japan and its specific setting material to over-generalize and say that it applies to everything. You wouldn't expect a Triax borg to be so vulnerable for example given what they fight, or a Russian borg where the environment is naturally more hostile.

[Nightmask]

That's only clear to you. Rifts: Japan has its own cyborg designs as well (and the book is somewhat contradictory anyway, having stuff that seems unnecessary or off), it may be that due to their cultural outlooks on things Japanese manufacture cyborgs don't come as environmentally sound as others from other lands. So you can't use Japan and its specific setting material to over-generalize and say that it applies to everything. You wouldn't expect a Triax borg to be so vulnerable for example given what they fight, or a Russian borg where the environment is naturally more hostile.

Given the nature of the megaversal system, it DOES apply to everything. Since it is part of the Rifts setting, I expect any generalization made to be a generalization (i.e. it applies generally to all cases). Now obviously Glitterboy has found a much better source, so the point is basically moot so there is no use in continuing to argue it.

No, that's not the nature of the megaversal system and it does not mean that what was written in Rifts Japan applies to all cyborgs in all settings. You're trying to overgeneralize from something that we've no reason to think can or does apply to every setting. You need a specific statement in text that cyborgs aren't environmentally sealed and you haven't got it because they are, the most you get are things that suggested means of enhancing and expanding on the already existing environmental shielding.

[glitterboy2098]

worldbook 7 underseas, page 10

Humans can't go deeper than 50ft without special equipment or magic.
with basic diving equipment, skin divers can go down to 160ft
normal cyborgs and powered armor can reach depths of 450ft
cyborgs and powered armor designed for deep sea use can reach depths of 2000ft

presumably if a specific suit of powered armor or cyborg body lists a different number, that overrides these general limits

Not actual durations given though, correct? Such as 'seals will last X hrs before failing'?

no, just the depth they can go to. for humans, that would be the depth at which pressure issues cause major medical issues. for PA and borgs, probably the point at which the seals fail and water floods in to short out electronics. (which would presumably kill the borg in short order if not hauled out quick, since they are reliant on said electronics)

one would imagine that a borg could wear special armor that would let them dive between 2000ft to 8976ft (1.7 miles) safely, which would explain the 1.7 miles on the implanted depth gauge. presumably the structure of a borg could easily handle such depths, but the seals on the moving parts would by their nature be weak points. not to mention that there are cyborg bodies in WB7 that can dive deeper than the general guide says.

[Killer Cyborg]

Reread the thread. Other than that I suppose that I am just sadistic GM and like to constantly harass players.

I've read the thread. There is no evidence to suggest they aren't sealed and there is specific evidence to suggest they are...specifically, the gills...which only exist for those times when you're going to exceed the capacity of the bionic lung and the depth gauge, which tells you when you get WITHIN ONE HUNDRED FEET of one's depth limit. That directly states that the depth limit is over 100 feet, and is likely substantially so, since they'd know perfectly well they were within 100 feet of their limit if it wasn't over 101 feet (or the like).

/Sub

OR
The Depth Gauge is designed for Cyborgs using the Diving armor, which gives them a maximum depth of a 1.7 miles. So yes, their Max Depth is over 100 ft,
When wearing special armor.

Now if there was actually something that said Borgs have depth tolerance X than that would be a whole different story.

There's nothing saying that normal humans have a depth tolerance of X.
Does that mean that they're not waterproof?

Normal humans aren't waterproof. They prune via water absorption through their skin. Water can also enter through the eyes, mouth, and nose in less than 5 ft of water. But obviously that is not the point of your example.

Actually, it is.
I don't think that Borgs are 100% waterproof... but they're at least as waterproof as humans.

I have found another piece of text in Japan:
"Environmental Upgrade:
The exterior of the Cyborg is sealed to keep oxygen from leaking and to protect from outside contaminants and toxins. Radiation Shielding and internal temperature control are included in this upgrade which enable the Cyborg to operate in hostile environments like underwater or outerspace"

That reads pretty clearly to me that Cyborgs are not sealed to operate underwater.

Only in the sense that it means that they can drown, just like most people.

[nilgravity]

Back on the main point not only is this a swamp, it's a rifts swamp. Who knows what could be living in the water. There might even be some kind of temporal effects in the area that ensure technology can't get a foot hold there. If it were me I'd be tempted to turn him into clockworks and steam power just to mess with everyone

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

The cyborg could always just drag a flat bottom boat along behind him and then use it whenever the ground became too too muddy or saturated to support his weight. I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult for him to just brute force paddle his way even through thick mud. It would also make a useful cargo sled if resupply is an issue.

[Natasha]

Humans and the dinos in the region will want to avoid the muck as much as the borg will want to avoid the muck.

That depends on the humans and dinos in question.

How so?

[Natasha]

If a regular man sinks into the marsh up to his waist, how much further will the much heavier borg sink?

--flatline

Depends from the depth of the muck.

[kaid]

The cyborg could always just drag a flat bottom boat along behind him and then use it whenever the ground became too too muddy or saturated to support his weight. I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult for him to just brute force paddle his way even through thick mud. It would also make a useful cargo sled if resupply is an issue.

Problems for borgs especially the huge russian variety you would need a pretty good size barge to hold him. Any normal flat bottom boat is simply going to sink under the weight. You pretty much are looking for a boat at least strong enough to carry a car weight wise.

For bigger rivers then I would agree it would be the best way to help cart the borg around but something big enough to hold a heavy borg without swamping is not getting deep back into the bayou.

[flatline]

I don'tknow about you guys, but just get some level 5 Mage to cast Weightlessness on the borg and he can walk on water if he wants to

Featherlight is another excellent solution if you have that ability.

-flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Humans and the dinos in the region will want to avoid the muck as much as the borg will want to avoid the muck.

That depends on the humans and dinos in question.

How so?

Some humans have boats.
Some dinos live in water or muck.

[Shark_Force]

I don'tknow about you guys, but just get some level 5 Mage to cast Weightlessness on the borg and he can walk on water if he wants to

Featherlight is another excellent solution if you have that ability.

-flatline

of course, it will be incredibly funny when said 'borg that can punch and kick through tank armour goes to punch or kick through tank armour while having almost zero mass...

[Natasha]

Humans and the dinos in the region will want to avoid the muck as much as the borg will want to avoid the muck.

That depends on the humans and dinos in question.

How so?

Some humans have boats.
Some dinos live in water or muck.

Sounds like it depends from the humans' technology in question rather than from the humans in question. Still, if you can drive a boat through it then you're not in muck.

Which dinos live in water? Probably the exception and not the rule in any case.

[Natasha]

I don'tknow about you guys, but just get some level 5 Mage to cast Weightlessness on the borg and he can walk on water if he wants to

Featherlight is another excellent solution if you have that ability.

-flatline

of course, it will be incredibly funny when said 'borg that can punch and kick through tank armour goes to punch or kick through tank armour while having almost zero mass...

Or tries to get any traction.

[Subjugator]

Not actual durations given though, correct? Such as 'seals will last X hrs before failing'?

Given that gills are made available for them, it's evident that extended periods of use are just fine. This is particularly true since the standard bionic lung for a combat borg will grant quite a bit of time under water without EVER surfacing.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

I have found another piece of text in Japan:
"Environmental Upgrade:
The exterior of the Cyborg is sealed to keep oxygen from leaking and to protect from outside contaminants and toxins. Radiation Shielding and internal temperature control are included in this upgrade which enable the Cyborg to operate in hostile environments like underwater or outerspace"

That reads pretty clearly to me that Cyborgs are not sealed to operate underwater.

THANK YOU GLITTERBOY
Now this stupid argument can be over. Although it would also appear that we have to contradictory pieces of information

That makes the borgs that need that an exception, since Underseas said that about all borgs.

Either that, or that makes it so they can go deeper than 450'.

/Sub

[say652]

what type of borg are we talkin here.

[Killer Cyborg]

Humans and the dinos in the region will want to avoid the muck as much as the borg will want to avoid the muck.

That depends on the humans and dinos in question.

How so?

Some humans have boats.
Some dinos live in water or muck.

Sounds like it depends from the humans' technology in question rather than from the humans in question. Still, if you can drive a boat through it then you're not in muck.

Right. Technically, you're ON it.
Which isn't exactly "avoiding it."

Which dinos live in water? Probably the exception and not the rule in any case.

The region is "The Dinosaur Swamps."
There's dinosaurs.
There's swamps.
I'm betting that the two overlap quite a bit.

[say652]

Brontosaurs, Eel sharks, giant crabs, giant alligators, pteradactyls just a few swamp dwellars i googled. took like two seconds. the Eel shark is awesome!

[kaid]

Humans and the dinos in the region will want to avoid the muck as much as the borg will want to avoid the muck.

That depends on the humans and dinos in question.

How so?

Some humans have boats.
Some dinos live in water or muck.

Sounds like it depends from the humans' technology in question rather than from the humans in question. Still, if you can drive a boat through it then you're not in muck.

Which dinos live in water? Probably the exception and not the rule in any case.

Actually quite a few dinos lived in water. Many saurapods like brontosaurs did some suspect to help offset their weight also you get things like the spinosaurus that appeared to have been quite fond of marshes/tidal estuaries along with a large number of mega crocadillians there were as big as most dinosaurs.

[flatline]

I don'tknow about you guys, but just get some level 5 Mage to cast Weightlessness on the borg and he can walk on water if he wants to

Featherlight is another excellent solution if you have that ability.

-flatline

of course, it will be incredibly funny when said 'borg that can punch and kick through tank armour goes to punch or kick through tank armour while having almost zero mass...

Or tries to get any traction.

Those spells Negate gravity, Not Mass. Quit being Anal Retentive. an item made weightless with the spell will not float away forever, It's beyond the limitations on the spell. Quit being Literal.

Hmm...a TW Featherlight grenade combined with wind rush TW rifle (can't remember what it's called...storm something) would be a funny combination.

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

I don'tknow about you guys, but just get some level 5 Mage to cast Weightlessness on the borg and he can walk on water if he wants to

Featherlight is another excellent solution if you have that ability.

-flatline

of course, it will be incredibly funny when said 'borg that can punch and kick through tank armour goes to punch or kick through tank armour while having almost zero mass...

Or tries to get any traction.

Those spells Negate gravity, Not Mass. Quit being Anal Retentive. an item made weightless with the spell will not float away forever, It's beyond the limitations on the spell. Quit being Literal.

ummm... no. no, that's not true at all.

the spell very specifically renders the object useless as a weapon because it has no weight. in fact, it says so *twice* in the spell description. it also goes on to explicitly state that it can be blown away in the wind. it even uses the example of a giant robot that has had featherweight applied, and notes that they wouldn't be able to walk at full speed and that they "must hold on to things or get blown away! Pushing a featherlight robot with a P.S. 7 or greater will knock it off its feet and send it flying 3D4 yards/meters."

so, yeah... actually... turns out the person who doesn't have the slightest clue what the spell does is you.

if the cyborg punches someone while featherlight, there are imo 2 implications:

1) he will deal no damage
2) the force will likely be much greater than a PS 7 person pushing something, and therefore we can expect the cyborg to go flying through the air. fortunately for the cyborg, most swamps are not known for heavy winds most of the time, or when he lands he might not be in kansas any more.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hmm...a TW Featherlight grenade combined with wind rush TW rifle (can't remember what it's called...storm something) would be a funny combination.

--flatline

Just build both spells into one TW rifle.

[Eashamahel]

Picturing a Cyborg with wide ski feet attachments and a fan or rocket thrusters on his back riding through the swamp is a pretty interesting image.

Overall, in the classic image of a line of men moving through the swamp/jungle all up to their knees or waists, scanning through the foliage for threats, I can't see the Cyborg having much of a problem. It's only when he get's himself into a situation where a normal human would be in trouble, like sinking above his head, that it becomes a problem, and even then, it's moreso because his buddies probably have no way of pulling him out, as it's not likely that they are going to be able to throw him a rope and pull him out.

In one of the earlier RIFTS books (I'm going to find it right now...)... In Rifts Index and Adventures Vol. 2, there is a Hook, Line and Sinker called 'Nano-Pneumonia, which revolves around a cloud of tiny nano-bots which destroy metal. This would be an interesting transplant into the swamps, perhaps something that is in the water, or the mud, or even something released by an alien plant, something that slowly degrades metals, even MDC metals. A Cyborg fully confident that he is sealed up which starts seeing problems, perhaps a foot not responding the way it should (after stepping through some strangely coloured mud?), and slowly spreading upwards, joints freezing, systems glitching, ect ect would be pretty intense, and could be tied into the setting. No wonder it's all a swamp and there is so little tech when this happens to it!

If I was to do something like this as a GM, I would concentrate on the Cyborg losing pieces of himself, maybe needing a crutch of some kind to walk after a short time, extra senses failing, vision failing, ect. Possibly after the Cyborg already interacted with a group of people from the swamp, and noting how weak, crippled and damaged they were after a lifetime of living with no modern medicine or technology, finds himself in the exact same state, terrifying for such a creature. It would also be a good time for the Cyborg to 'go back to nature' sort of thought, perhaps no longer being able to accomplish his goal/mission with his 'innate' mechanical/technological abilities, he has to rely on the advice and skills of the simple swamp-folk and their ways. Also of note, if I was to do this to a character, I would have some kind of 'reverse' set up, where near the end, the cyborg character can become 'healed' and have the damage done to him undone, perhaps the natives have some kind of cure (cyborg mud bath?) which he can make use of to regain his full operations?

Just some more thoughts on Cyborgs and swamps.

[Killer Cyborg]

Picturing a Cyborg with wide ski feet attachments and a fan or rocket thrusters on his back riding through the swamp is a pretty interesting image.

Overall, in the classic image of a line of men moving through the swamp/jungle all up to their knees or waists, scanning through the foliage for threats, I can't see the Cyborg having much of a problem. It's only when he get's himself into a situation where a normal human would be in trouble, like sinking above his head, that it becomes a problem, and even then, it's moreso because his buddies probably have no way of pulling him out, as it's not likely that they are going to be able to throw him a rope and pull him out.

That's the thing: in that classical image, the men don't way over 1,000 lbs each.
If they DID, then they'd be a LOT deeper than their knees or waist.

[Todd Yoho]

First, everyone go and actually read both Dinosaur Swamp books, in their entirety, and not just the title. There is more than "dinosaurs" and "swamps." I put a lot of time and effort into researching and describing the environment and geography of the region and everyone in this thread is treating the whole expanse like it's a giant mud hole stretching from the Appalachians to the southern tip of Florida. Running games in DS means reading the books and actually being familiar with the details.

Second, on the crowd favorite topic of mud, the environment is meant to be an exaggerated threat to all characters, so the surface tension suction of dirt and water in solution is going to hinder even the most awesomely strong. That's the theme of the setting. If you really want something to convince the math nerds and rules lawyers, call it super-transdimensional mega-mud composed of minerals and soil from beyond the stars. Describe the effects and boom, the characters have a mystery to solve. Whether the players can suspend disbelief and go with thematic verisimilitude is a different problem all together.

Third, technology doesn't belong. It smells weird. It sounds different. It looks, by definition, unnatural. It's going to alert anyone or anything in the area to its presence. Top predators are going to know that sometimes, delicious snacks can be picked off from around those smells and sounds. The borg then becomes a hindrance and a dinner bell. Dude may find himself short on friends after a few snack runs by some theropods with rumbly bellies attracted to the borg's +1000% to Not Belong Here.

Fourth...na, I'm done. That's all the free insight I have for now.

[Killer Cyborg]

Nice post, Todd.

[Natasha]

Or tries to get any traction.

Those spells Negate gravity, Not Mass. Quit being Anal Retentive. an item made weightless with the spell will not float away forever, It's beyond the limitations on the spell. Quit being Literal.

Presume that gravity is negated. Now describe the affect on traction.

[Natasha]

Actually quite a few dinos lived in water. Many saurapods like brontosaurs did some suspect to help offset their weight also you get things like the spinosaurus that appeared to have been quite fond of marshes/tidal estuaries along with a large number of mega crocadillians there were as big as most dinosaurs.

If you can swim or walk through it, then it's not really that much of an obstacle.

[Natasha]

Right. Technically, you're ON it.
Which isn't exactly "avoiding it."

The problem being avoided is being IN it. It is avoiding it. I am talking about if a person can pilot a boat through "it" then it is not so viscous that it can be swam or walked through with the same ease. That is, not so much of an obstacle to travel.

Which dinos live in water? Probably the exception and not the rule in any case.

The region is "The Dinosaur Swamps."
There's dinosaurs.
There's swamps.
I'm betting that the two overlap quite a bit.

Non sequitur.

I'm betting that a large dino that would get bogged down in a mire would ever step foot into that mire without some exceptional circumstances. I'm betting that animals follow paths of least resistance.

I would second Todd's post as well.

[Killer Cyborg]

Right. Technically, you're ON it.
Which isn't exactly "avoiding it."

The problem being avoided is being IN it. It is avoiding it.

No.
That would be "avoiding being IN it."
But your intent has been clarified.

I am talking about if a person can pilot a boat through "it" then it is not so viscous that it can be swam or walked through with the same ease. That is, not so much of an obstacle to travel.

Here's how a lot of swamps work.
There's a lot of standing, often stagnant water in a swamp.
A lot of people don't know this, but underneath that water is mud.
Nobody knows how this mud got there, but can be pretty deep.
I personally suspect that it has something to do with the water being there, but that's just my own wild theory.

Now, boats can (and do) float on water, well above the mud. Even if the water is only a few feet deep, they don't actually get stuck in the mud.
People, on the other hand, unless they're swimming, don't really float on water, so their feet kind of sploosh down through the water as they walk (or trudge) through the swamp.
This gets kind of complicated, but when their feet hit the bottom of the water, their feet come into contact with the mud, sinking down into the mud. Unlike boats.

Which dinos live in water? Probably the exception and not the rule in any case.

The region is "The Dinosaur Swamps."
There's dinosaurs.
There's swamps.
I'm betting that the two overlap quite a bit.

Non sequitur.

Not really.
You were trying to claim that there aren't dinosaurs in the swamps.
I was countering that claim.
Do you need me to clarify further...?

I'm betting that a large dino that would get bogged down in a mire would ever step foot into that mire without some exceptional circumstances. I'm betting that animals follow paths of least resistance.

And you would be correct.
But not all dinos ARE large dinos.
And of the ones that ARE large, they're often going to be a LOT taller than a Borg. Tall enough that even if they sink 10' into the mud, that's only their shins.

I would second Todd's post as well.

Excellent.
Then maybe READ the book.
Pay attention to stuff like the Sarcosuchus, on page 20-22, which is a giant, mega-damage crocodile that lurks in the swamps.
Maybe read up on the Sauropod (22-23), and the part where the book mentions that Sauropods "show little reluctance to traveling deep into the waterlogged swamps and marshes."
Or the Spinosaurus (24-26), which is another crocodile-like dino that lurks in the watery parts of the region.
Or any of the other creatures in the book which can be found in the swamp part of the Dinosaur Swamps.

[taalismn]

And a lot of large dinos like the water because it helps offset their weight, that would otherwise render them ponderous on land. Now, while it may slow them down compared to, say, a predator like allosaurus, with the bulk of some of the larger sauropods, they're not exactly going to be cheetah-fast under the best of circumstances.
Admittedly, allosaurus and other carnivores won't venture too deep into the water(how many times have you seen lions or wolves go into deep water after prey?), so many dinos also see swamp as protection, However, nature abhoring a vacant niche, that's where your gargantuan crocs and other specialists come in.

And even the vegetarians are damn dangerous in the swamp....more people die yearly of hippo attacks than croc attacks. Mass is a weapon all its own, and some of those sauropods have MAJOR mass to sling at you.

This is just TERRESTRIAL evolution out to kill you. In Rifts we get to toss in the more specialized amphibious predators as well.

A cyborg's metal and plastic is a lot more dense than a dino's flesh and bone, and less inclined to float, because most cyborgs are deliberately designed as heavily armored work or weapons platforms....armored protection and weapons/tools takes precedence over being able to wallow along, suctioning up vegetation. They'll have a harder time of it trekking through the muck and mire, even with robotic-strength servos.


The short of it: don't go into the swamp. Too many things can kill you.

[Icefalcon]

First, according to page 99 of Warlords of Russia, Russian Borg technology is better than Coalition and equal to, if not superior in some cases, to Triax cybernetics. Further, their operational parameters, diagnostic procedures, surgical techniques and rate of success are equal to if not superior to the NGR.

Second, tactile sensation (according to page 107 WoR) is at least 50% (as high as 80% in light machines, listed as 45% for the heavy machine). So they do have some sensation.

Third, even heavy construction equipment (which is heavier than a Borg) can become stuck in the mud. For example, I was watching a show ( I don't remember the name) where a bunch of guys from Louisiana (they were from the Bayou) went to the Amazon to mine for gold. During one of the episodes, they got their excavator (which has treads that spread the weight pretty far out) stuck in the mud. It took three days and extra equipment (such as pulleys and logs for traction) for them to get the thing out of the mud and back to their base camp to start work. So all of the robotic strength in the world would not do a Borg any good (and yes, an excavator has enough force behind it to shred a tank).

Fourth, there are other dangers listed in Dinosaur Swamps (like D-Shifting to an all water environment or outer space or even magma flows) that none of the characters could be prepared for. Being a Borg would not matter so much in those situations.

Fifth, it mentions both in the WoR and Dino Swamp that people are put off socially by Borgs (especially a Heavy Machine that usually has an inhuman face). It will be hard for the Borg to even buy a can of oil anywhere because of it.

As an addition to all of the rest of the ideas, mud can also clog movement points on the Borg. Yes, the seals might protect it innards but mud has a way of clogging up the joints and pivot points of many machines. Just because the Borg has a robotic strength (which most factory machines do) does not mean it cannot be fouled by foreign matter. This might not stop movement all together but it will certainly slow it down until it can be cleared. I would think it would take many hours each day to clean all of the dried mud out of a Borgs' crevices (or body armor for that matter).

[tundro]

Being in the automotive industry, I can tell you first hand what effect mud and grit has on seals. Even heavy industrial machinery that deals with those kind of materials regularly replace the seals. Sand or mud that gets left there long enough will also groove the shaft and neccesitate repairing or at the least speedi-sleeving the shaft to allow the seal to...seal. I understand that all of this is probably a bit much for your typical roll-playing scenario, but keeping in mind that abrasive materials left in moving parts IS going to cause damage sooner or later.

[Nightmask]

Being in the automotive industry, I can tell you first hand what effect mud and grit has on seals. Even heavy industrial machinery that deals with those kind of materials regularly replace the seals. Sand or mud that gets left there long enough will also groove the shaft and neccesitate repairing or at the least speedi-sleeving the shaft to allow the seal to...seal. I understand that all of this is probably a bit much for your typical roll-playing scenario, but keeping in mind that abrasive materials left in moving parts IS going to cause damage sooner or later.

Which means it basically comes down to how much a GM and player are willing to deal with the problems caused by such things, and apply them equally. As long as the GM is subjecting all their gear to these problems that would end up being reasonable (albeit highly frustrating), applying it only to the cyborg character on the other hand would come across as singling him out unfairly if only he's suffering from all those detrimental environmental effects and not the Power Armor Pilot's armor or the group's vehicle(s).

[Natasha]

Right. Technically, you're ON it.
Which isn't exactly "avoiding it."

The problem being avoided is being IN it. It is avoiding it.

No.
That would be "avoiding being IN it."
But your intent has been clarified.

I am talking about if a person can pilot a boat through "it" then it is not so viscous that it can be swam or walked through with the same ease. That is, not so much of an obstacle to travel.

Here's how a lot of swamps work.
There's a lot of standing, often stagnant water in a swamp.
A lot of people don't know this, but underneath that water is mud.
Nobody knows how this mud got there, but can be pretty deep.
I personally suspect that it has something to do with the water being there, but that's just my own wild theory.

Now, boats can (and do) float on water, well above the mud. Even if the water is only a few feet deep, they don't actually get stuck in the mud.
People, on the other hand, unless they're swimming, don't really float on water, so their feet kind of sploosh down through the water as they walk (or trudge) through the swamp.
This gets kind of complicated, but when their feet hit the bottom of the water, their feet come into contact with the mud, sinking down into the mud. Unlike boats.

Which dinos live in water? Probably the exception and not the rule in any case.

The region is "The Dinosaur Swamps."
There's dinosaurs.
There's swamps.
I'm betting that the two overlap quite a bit.

Non sequitur.

Not really.
You were trying to claim that there aren't dinosaurs in the swamps.
I was countering that claim.
Do you need me to clarify further...?

I'm betting that a large dino that would get bogged down in a mire would ever step foot into that mire without some exceptional circumstances. I'm betting that animals follow paths of least resistance.

And you would be correct.
But not all dinos ARE large dinos.
And of the ones that ARE large, they're often going to be a LOT taller than a Borg. Tall enough that even if they sink 10' into the mud, that's only their shins.

I would second Todd's post as well.

Excellent.
Then maybe READ the book.
Pay attention to stuff like the Sarcosuchus, on page 20-22, which is a giant, mega-damage crocodile that lurks in the swamps.
Maybe read up on the Sauropod (22-23), and the part where the book mentions that Sauropods "show little reluctance to traveling deep into the waterlogged swamps and marshes."
Or the Spinosaurus (24-26), which is another crocodile-like dino that lurks in the watery parts of the region.
Or any of the other creatures in the book which can be found in the swamp part of the Dinosaur Swamps.

The original description did not mention drowning as a threat and as such the mental image of what was being discussed settled on a viscous soupy mess. Meh. Doesn't really change my assertion that creatures avoid places that they know can fairly easily kill them.

It seems to me that anything large enough to dangerously sink into mud is going to avoid it. So far I have seen no indication that is incorrect, not in real life and certainly not in the books. Sauropods are not relevant to the discussion due to the sheer difference in size. Sarosuchus swims and spinosaurus will not lurk somewhere it cannot move to either move along or to snatch prey.

So what is the page number where it says these animals get into places that they cannot extricate themselves from as a matter of usual behaviour?

[tundro]

they've drained swamps of water before. how do you think New Orleans '9th ward was made?

True, but what are the chances that the inhabitants there have the technology or the desire to do so?

[Eashamahel]

Being in the automotive industry, I can tell you first hand what effect mud and grit has on seals. Even heavy industrial machinery that deals with those kind of materials regularly replace the seals. Sand or mud that gets left there long enough will also groove the shaft and neccesitate repairing or at the least speedi-sleeving the shaft to allow the seal to...seal. I understand that all of this is probably a bit much for your typical roll-playing scenario, but keeping in mind that abrasive materials left in moving parts IS going to cause damage sooner or later.

Sand or mud will groove shafts and wreck seals NOW, but in RIFTS, on a Cyborg, where it's reasonable to assume the same parts are x100 stronger and more resilient?

[Killer Cyborg]

The original description did not mention drowning as a threat and as such the mental image of what was being discussed settled on a viscous soupy mess.

Ah.
I didn't bother mentioning drowning as a threat, because I don't consider that to be a serious threat for a Borg in these conditions, unless it happens to be a borg that is woefully unprepared.

Meh. Doesn't really change my assertion that creatures avoid places that they know can fairly easily kill them.

Well, I can agree with that assertion.
My point was that the swamps are full of creatures that aren't fairly easily killed by swamps.

Sauropods are not relevant to the discussion due to the sheer difference in size.

You said that dinosaurs and humans would avoid the swampy parts.
I said "that depends on the dinos or humans in question."
You said, "How so?"
Which indicated that you were unclear on the idea that some dinos and some humans DO inhabit the swampy parts.
Sauropods are one such example, so I don't see any reason to discount them.

UNLESS your original statement was meant to say something to the effect of "Dinosaurs and humans tend to avoid the swampy parts, except for all the examples of dinosaurs and humans that don't, due to their sheer size or other considerations."

So what is the page number where it says these animals get into places that they cannot extricate themselves from as a matter of usual behaviour?

Nowhere.
Nor does it say that swamps are such places.

[Killer Cyborg]

they've drained swamps of water before. how do you think New Orleans '9th ward was made?

True, but what are the chances that the inhabitants there have the technology or the desire to do so?

Also, the water levels are a bit higher now.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Being in the automotive industry, I can tell you first hand what effect mud and grit has on seals. Even heavy industrial machinery that deals with those kind of materials regularly replace the seals. Sand or mud that gets left there long enough will also groove the shaft and neccesitate repairing or at the least speedi-sleeving the shaft to allow the seal to...seal. I understand that all of this is probably a bit much for your typical roll-playing scenario, but keeping in mind that abrasive materials left in moving parts IS going to cause damage sooner or later.

Sand or mud will groove shafts and wreck seals NOW, but in RIFTS, on a Cyborg, where it's reasonable to assume the same parts are x100 stronger and more resilient?

True but Much like today defective parts will make it to market and someone will buy them and have them installed , or a small little particle of mdc material could be mixed in with the mud or sand, or the part is cheap knock off.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

First, everyone go and actually read both Dinosaur Swamp books, in their entirety, and not just the title. There is more than "dinosaurs" and "swamps." I put a lot of time and effort into researching and describing the environment and geography of the region and everyone in this thread is treating the whole expanse like it's a giant mud hole stretching from the Appalachians to the southern tip of Florida. Running games in DS means reading the books and actually being familiar with the details.

Second, on the crowd favorite topic of mud, the environment is meant to be an exaggerated threat to all characters, so the surface tension suction of dirt and water in solution is going to hinder even the most awesomely strong. That's the theme of the setting. If you really want something to convince the math nerds and rules lawyers, call it super-transdimensional mega-mud composed of minerals and soil from beyond the stars. Describe the effects and boom, the characters have a mystery to solve. Whether the players can suspend disbelief and go with thematic verisimilitude is a different problem all together.

Third, technology doesn't belong. It smells weird. It sounds different. It looks, by definition, unnatural. It's going to alert anyone or anything in the area to its presence. Top predators are going to know that sometimes, delicious snacks can be picked off from around those smells and sounds. The borg then becomes a hindrance and a dinner bell. Dude may find himself short on friends after a few snack runs by some theropods with rumbly bellies attracted to the borg's +1000% to Not Belong Here.

Fourth...na, I'm done. That's all the free insight I have for now.

Bah why should anybody listen to you it's not like you write those two books .......oh wait......you did

[tundro]

they've drained swamps of water before. how do you think New Orleans '9th ward was made?

True, but what are the chances that the inhabitants there have the technology or the desire to do so?

Also, the water levels are a bit higher now.

The technology needed to drain a swamp is Industrial 1908 Technology. People ahve it, the problem with the swamp people themselves, they don't want to!

but anyone else other then them could drain the swamps.

With the exception of Char, most of the folks living in Dinosaur Swamp are pre-industrial barbarian tribes. I imagine that none of them would take kindly to outsiders draining thier swamp (most are xenophobic IIRC). And a lot of them are pretty darn tough from living in such an inhospitable place.

[taalismn]

With the exception of Char, most of the folks living in Dinosaur Swamp are pre-industrial barbarian tribes. I imagine that none of them would take kindly to outsiders draining thier swamp (most are xenophobic IIRC). And a lot of them are pretty darn tough from living in such an inhospitable place.

Cue 'Dueling Banjos' soundtrack...

[glitterboy2098]

And don't forget that draining wetlands is a major task, even ifyou have the tech.. it takes.major infrastucture investment do do, in dikes and pumps and such.. which means lots of funds and lots of people.

For the few non-barbarian people living there, it is going to be much easier to just settle the patches of comparatively productive land already available.

[G]

I ran a RIFTS game for 10 years exclusively, but I retired it and went to BTS-2 back in '05. So I know it well, but I'm really out of practice.
But normally I run a Non-BTS game in the summer as summertime kills the horror vibe. The last few years have been games like Nightbane or Heroes Unlimited. But the group surprised me with another idea of running a summer RIFTS adventure in the Dinosaur Swamps.

Then they surprised me again, by the group all playing humans, a Mind Melter, a Cyber-Doc, a Rouge Scholar... and a Heavy Russian Borg.

I've not had such a gap between power levels before. I want to Borg player to feel challenged, but not at the expense of his otherwise flesh and blood crew. So I've been trying to think on "non-combative" or alternative ways to make life tough for a heavy borg in the Dinosaur Swamps. I've been trying to bone up on Rifts info and the books before Thursday nights game, and I've read about the hazards and the wear and tear of the Dinosaur Swamps, but I thought I should consult players and GM's who are more current with advice as to help make a heavy borgs life as hectic as it will be for a group of flesh and bloods.

Any advice is appreciated.

Everyone picked their character so that they could succeed at certain things. So...let them. They don't have to face 10 t-rex's at once. They face 1 with two adolescents, the rest of the PCs will have no harder a time of it than the borg (which is to say the t-rex bites him and throws him onto the other PCs crushing them, etc). Its all a question of balancing the challenges. RIFTS is supposed to be a hodgepodge of everything, so obviously not everyone is going to be in Bots, but give the enemies one or two, which gives the game the right feel.

As for swamp penalties, were I the borg it would work something like this...borg flies ahead and lands in a clearing, spending a boring day waiting for an animal to poke its head out. When it does he blasts it. By the time the PCs get there swearing and weary having traveled all day in the muck being eaten alive by mosquitoes, the borg has a dinosaur roasting over an open fire. The borg doesn't incur swamp problems, other than being bored to tears between blasting things...but wait, thats mostly what a borg will do in any situation. boredom, blast things, boredom.

Let people play their characters...thats why they play the game.

[say652]

I think we went way off topic here and basically gave the GM a million and 50ways to screw over the borg player. In the end a fair heart(mine) would rule -30% land speeds when traveling through muck. You ARE a major target, call it the electromagnetic field surrounding your big metal butt attracts interested bitey stuff. And the locals are not comfortable around you expect to pay 50% more for products and services.

[nilgravity]

And even the vegetarians are damn dangerous in the swamp....more people die yearly of hippo attacks than croc attacks.

Not that Hippos are vegitarian http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6818-cannibalism-may-have-spread-anthrax-in-hippos.html

[say652]

And even the vegetarians are damn dangerous in the swamp....more people die yearly of hippo attacks than croc attacks.

Not that Hippos are vegitarian http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6818-cannibalism-may-have-spread-anthrax-in-hippos.html

Those beasts are so dangerous the nile crocodiles flee from them when the bellow.

[dragonfett]

How do they survive the rampant malaria and jungle rot living in a swamp does?

Their bodies build immunities to them. That is why people of African descent have a high risk of being born with Sickle Cell Anemia is because people who only had one allele showed less severe symptoms from malaria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle-cell_disease