Free Magic Movement

[Blue_Lion]

This has me thinking about the union wars from US history. The saliors union whould comit acts of piracy agaist ships with non union sailors. In fact Billy Ghol the head of the sailors union in aberdeen WA in the early 1900 is one of the bigest serial killers (with well over 40 victoms)in US history. He was also if I rember right convited of piracy multiple times (3) and recived fines.

The loggers union in Aberdeen WA attacked and harrased non union loggers, even tried to burn down bars the non union hung out a bar. Those are facts from a time in US history when unions where just getting started. The unions in the US broke the laws and comited crimes to further the abilty they had to get control of the part of a market they wanted. So if a union in the US whould do something like that to get/protect its market share what whould a guild do in rifts to protect its market share. Personaly I think any guild in Rifts is capable of the same things as unions from the same the early 1900s.

[Nightmask]

This has me thinking about the union wars from US history. The saliors union whould comit acts of piracy agaist ships with non union sailors. In fact Billy Ghol the head of the sailors union in aberdeen WA in the early 1900 is one of the bigest serial killers (with well over 40 victoms)in US history. He was also if I rember right convited of piracy multiple times (3) and recived fines.

The loggers union in Aberdeen WA attacked and harrased non union loggers, even tried to burn down bars the non union hung out a bar. Those are facts from a time in US history when unions where just getting started. The unions in the US broke the laws and comited crimes to further the abilty they had to get control of the part of a market they wanted. So if a union in the US whould do something like that to get/protect its market share what whould a guild do in rifts to protect its market share. Personaly I think any guild in Rifts is capable of the same things as unions from the same the early 1900s.

And yet, in the end, they failed to manage a monopoly control over things. Nor do economic factors exist as the sole motivating factor for people and often aren't involved at all. We aren't talking a case of some carpentry guild trying to keep all carpentry business in the area under its control and it's an absurd oversimplification to try and reduce it to such a caricature as killer guilds eliminating rivals. Just trying to make it out that all guilds are run by ruthless people concerned with nothing but profit (as if they're some furniture factory turning out chairs) and willing to kill anyone giving spells away for free kills any credibility you might have because things simply aren't that uniform or simplistic.

[Subjugator]

This has me thinking about the union wars from US history. The saliors union whould comit acts of piracy agaist ships with non union sailors. In fact Billy Ghol the head of the sailors union in aberdeen WA in the early 1900 is one of the bigest serial killers (with well over 40 victoms)in US history. He was also if I rember right convited of piracy multiple times (3) and recived fines.

The loggers union in Aberdeen WA attacked and harrased non union loggers, even tried to burn down bars the non union hung out a bar. Those are facts from a time in US history when unions where just getting started. The unions in the US broke the laws and comited crimes to further the abilty they had to get control of the part of a market they wanted. So if a union in the US whould do something like that to get/protect its market share what whould a guild do in rifts to protect its market share. Personaly I think any guild in Rifts is capable of the same things as unions from the same the early 1900s.

And yet, in the end, they failed to manage a monopoly control over things. Nor do economic factors exist as the sole motivating factor for people and often aren't involved at all. We aren't talking a case of some carpentry guild trying to keep all carpentry business in the area under its control and it's an absurd oversimplification to try and reduce it to such a caricature as killer guilds eliminating rivals. Just trying to make it out that all guilds are run by ruthless people concerned with nothing but profit (as if they're some furniture factory turning out chairs) and willing to kill anyone giving spells away for free kills any credibility you might have because things simply aren't that uniform or simplistic.

There was effective government in the entire USA at the time. There is not effective government in most of the world in Rifts earth.

/Sub

[Killer Cyborg]

This has me thinking about the union wars from US history. The saliors union whould comit acts of piracy agaist ships with non union sailors. In fact Billy Ghol the head of the sailors union in aberdeen WA in the early 1900 is one of the bigest serial killers (with well over 40 victoms)in US history. He was also if I rember right convited of piracy multiple times (3) and recived fines.

The loggers union in Aberdeen WA attacked and harrased non union loggers, even tried to burn down bars the non union hung out a bar. Those are facts from a time in US history when unions where just getting started. The unions in the US broke the laws and comited crimes to further the abilty they had to get control of the part of a market they wanted. So if a union in the US whould do something like that to get/protect its market share what whould a guild do in rifts to protect its market share. Personaly I think any guild in Rifts is capable of the same things as unions from the same the early 1900s.

And yet, in the end, they failed to manage a monopoly control over things. Nor do economic factors exist as the sole motivating factor for people and often aren't involved at all. We aren't talking a case of some carpentry guild trying to keep all carpentry business in the area under its control and it's an absurd oversimplification to try and reduce it to such a caricature as killer guilds eliminating rivals. Just trying to make it out that all guilds are run by ruthless people concerned with nothing but profit (as if they're some furniture factory turning out chairs) and willing to kill anyone giving spells away for free kills any credibility you might have because things simply aren't that uniform or simplistic.

I'm guessing that you didn't read my post about historic, real-world guilds.
Shame.

[Damian Magecraft]

This has me thinking about the union wars from US history. The saliors union whould comit acts of piracy agaist ships with non union sailors. In fact Billy Ghol the head of the sailors union in aberdeen WA in the early 1900 is one of the bigest serial killers (with well over 40 victoms)in US history. He was also if I rember right convited of piracy multiple times (3) and recived fines.

The loggers union in Aberdeen WA attacked and harrased non union loggers, even tried to burn down bars the non union hung out a bar. Those are facts from a time in US history when unions where just getting started. The unions in the US broke the laws and comited crimes to further the abilty they had to get control of the part of a market they wanted. So if a union in the US whould do something like that to get/protect its market share what whould a guild do in rifts to protect its market share. Personaly I think any guild in Rifts is capable of the same things as unions from the same the early 1900s.

You missed a more recent incident...
In the 70's the teamsters went on strike.
Everyday during the strike the news in every state was reporting on sniper attacks against wild catting truckers who continued to run routes during said strike.
In the end the attacks injured the teamsters cause but that was due to the outrage generated by the media.
In a world like rifts attacks like those would not be as detrimental.

[Blue_Lion]

This has me thinking about the union wars from US history. The saliors union whould comit acts of piracy agaist ships with non union sailors. In fact Billy Ghol the head of the sailors union in aberdeen WA in the early 1900 is one of the bigest serial killers (with well over 40 victoms)in US history. He was also if I rember right convited of piracy multiple times (3) and recived fines.

The loggers union in Aberdeen WA attacked and harrased non union loggers, even tried to burn down bars the non union hung out a bar. Those are facts from a time in US history when unions where just getting started. The unions in the US broke the laws and comited crimes to further the abilty they had to get control of the part of a market they wanted. So if a union in the US whould do something like that to get/protect its market share what whould a guild do in rifts to protect its market share. Personaly I think any guild in Rifts is capable of the same things as unions from the same the early 1900s.

You missed a more recent incident...
In the 70's the teamsters went on strike.
Everyday during the strike the news in every state was reporting on sniper attacks against wild catting truckers who continued to run routes during said strike.
In the end the attacks injured the teamsters cause but that was due to the outrage generated by the media.
In a world like rifts attacks like those would not be as detrimental.

Thing was during the early 1900s lots of unions where doing it.

[Damian Magecraft]

This has me thinking about the union wars from US history. The saliors union whould comit acts of piracy agaist ships with non union sailors. In fact Billy Ghol the head of the sailors union in aberdeen WA in the early 1900 is one of the bigest serial killers (with well over 40 victoms)in US history. He was also if I rember right convited of piracy multiple times (3) and recived fines.

The loggers union in Aberdeen WA attacked and harrased non union loggers, even tried to burn down bars the non union hung out a bar. Those are facts from a time in US history when unions where just getting started. The unions in the US broke the laws and comited crimes to further the abilty they had to get control of the part of a market they wanted. So if a union in the US whould do something like that to get/protect its market share what whould a guild do in rifts to protect its market share. Personaly I think any guild in Rifts is capable of the same things as unions from the same the early 1900s.

You missed a more recent incident...
In the 70's the teamsters went on strike.
Everyday during the strike the news in every state was reporting on sniper attacks against wild catting truckers who continued to run routes during said strike.
In the end the attacks injured the teamsters cause but that was due to the outrage generated by the media.
In a world like rifts attacks like those would not be as detrimental.

Thing was during the early 1900s lots of unions where doing it.

I was pointing out that even into the recent past unions/guilds were/are still utilizing violence to protect their interests.

[Blue_Lion]

This has me thinking about the union wars from US history. The saliors union whould comit acts of piracy agaist ships with non union sailors. In fact Billy Ghol the head of the sailors union in aberdeen WA in the early 1900 is one of the bigest serial killers (with well over 40 victoms)in US history. He was also if I rember right convited of piracy multiple times (3) and recived fines.

The loggers union in Aberdeen WA attacked and harrased non union loggers, even tried to burn down bars the non union hung out a bar. Those are facts from a time in US history when unions where just getting started. The unions in the US broke the laws and comited crimes to further the abilty they had to get control of the part of a market they wanted. So if a union in the US whould do something like that to get/protect its market share what whould a guild do in rifts to protect its market share. Personaly I think any guild in Rifts is capable of the same things as unions from the same the early 1900s.

You missed a more recent incident...
In the 70's the teamsters went on strike.
Everyday during the strike the news in every state was reporting on sniper attacks against wild catting truckers who continued to run routes during said strike.
In the end the attacks injured the teamsters cause but that was due to the outrage generated by the media.
In a world like rifts attacks like those would not be as detrimental.

Thing was during the early 1900s lots of unions where doing it.

I was pointing out that even into the recent past unions/guilds were/are still utilizing violence to protect their interests.

Some still use boarder line illgal methods to try to aquire new turf.
Wal mart has problems with Unions contating their employees while the union misrepresents themself as part of wal marts corporate structur to try and trick people into sighning forms to give the union the right to vote for them on unionizing walmart stores. They also send people to try and steal names, adresses and phone numbers of employees of wal mart. Last black friday unions sent people to wal marts to pretend to be employees protesting, the case I am refering to was like 3 employees where protesting but to make wal mart look bad a union sent about 30 people to protest pretending to be disgruntaled walmart employees. (realy I do not see the idea of thinking you should work in retail and have the bigest shoping day of the year off, if you want it off don't work in retail.)
I know some people that work at wal mart and at least once a year I hear them complain about stuff like that happening. Now of course the unions deny it.

[Damian Magecraft]

This has me thinking about the union wars from US history. The saliors union whould comit acts of piracy agaist ships with non union sailors. In fact Billy Ghol the head of the sailors union in aberdeen WA in the early 1900 is one of the bigest serial killers (with well over 40 victoms)in US history. He was also if I rember right convited of piracy multiple times (3) and recived fines.

The loggers union in Aberdeen WA attacked and harrased non union loggers, even tried to burn down bars the non union hung out a bar. Those are facts from a time in US history when unions where just getting started. The unions in the US broke the laws and comited crimes to further the abilty they had to get control of the part of a market they wanted. So if a union in the US whould do something like that to get/protect its market share what whould a guild do in rifts to protect its market share. Personaly I think any guild in Rifts is capable of the same things as unions from the same the early 1900s.

You missed a more recent incident...
In the 70's the teamsters went on strike.
Everyday during the strike the news in every state was reporting on sniper attacks against wild catting truckers who continued to run routes during said strike.
In the end the attacks injured the teamsters cause but that was due to the outrage generated by the media.
In a world like rifts attacks like those would not be as detrimental.

Thing was during the early 1900s lots of unions where doing it.

I was pointing out that even into the recent past unions/guilds were/are still utilizing violence to protect their interests.

Some still use boarder line illgal methods to try to aquire new turf.
Wal mart has problems with Unions contating their employees while the union misrepresents themself as part of wal marts corporate structur to try and trick people into sighning forms to give the union the right to vote for them on unionizing walmart stores. They also send people to try and steal names, adresses and phone numbers of employees of wal mart. Last black friday unions sent people to wal marts to pretend to be employees protesting, the case I am refering to was like 3 employees where protesting but to make wal mart look bad a union sent about 30 people to protest pretending to be disgruntaled walmart employees. (realy I do not see the idea of thinking you should work in retail and have the bigest shoping day of the year off, if you want it off don't work in retail.)
I know some people that work at wal mart and at least once a year I hear them complain about stuff like that happening. Now of course the unions deny it.

And let's not forget that the management side of said disputes are no less underhanded in preventing unions from gaining foothold in their businesses.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

for those trying to see how this is different from being 'just another guild'... think about it as a version of ThePirateBay, only in analog form and focused on magic. it's members freely share what they have with each other.. even the spells that other guilds protect rigorously as private intellectual property.
higher level spells would be in circulation because there would be no way for a Guild to prevent their members from joining this 'peer to peer' sharing network, and once a member of a guild shares the info on the spell with the network, there is no way to prevent it from being spread.
a guild can only punish a member which violates guild regs and shares the spells out.. but by then the damage is done. and if the member sharing the info is careful, no one should be able to tell who did it.

You sir have read my mind. I am flummoxed at the similarity between what you posted and what wandered through my own head.

[Subjugator]

for those trying to see how this is different from being 'just another guild'... think about it as a version of ThePirateBay, only in analog form and focused on magic. it's members freely share what they have with each other.. even the spells that other guilds protect rigorously as private intellectual property.
higher level spells would be in circulation because there would be no way for a Guild to prevent their members from joining this 'peer to peer' sharing network, and once a member of a guild shares the info on the spell with the network, there is no way to prevent it from being spread.
a guild can only punish a member which violates guild regs and shares the spells out.. but by then the damage is done. and if the member sharing the info is careful, no one should be able to tell who did it.

You sir have read my mind. I am flummoxed at the similarity between what you posted and what wandered through my own head.

In a world of magic and psionics, the idea that no one should be able to tell who did it is unworkable at best.

/Sub

[Killer Cyborg]

for those trying to see how this is different from being 'just another guild'... think about it as a version of ThePirateBay, only in analog form and focused on magic. it's members freely share what they have with each other.. even the spells that other guilds protect rigorously as private intellectual property.
higher level spells would be in circulation because there would be no way for a Guild to prevent their members from joining this 'peer to peer' sharing network, and once a member of a guild shares the info on the spell with the network, there is no way to prevent it from being spread.
a guild can only punish a member which violates guild regs and shares the spells out.. but by then the damage is done. and if the member sharing the info is careful, no one should be able to tell who did it.

You sir have read my mind. I am flummoxed at the similarity between what you posted and what wandered through my own head.

Well, they could take out the network, for one.

As for finding out who did it... there's a LOT of spells and devices that would help with that sort of thing.
The spell Oracle, for example, can give a vision of "when or whom the mage is thinking about."
So if they thought about "the person who shared this spell," or "the person who gave this spell to (whoever)," or whatever, they could potentially get a vision of that person.
The spell Locate can help a mage "sense the general location of his quarry," which could help track down physical locations of groups that oppose them.
And that's just the first two spells that jumped out at me as I flipped through the BoM.
And it's not counting psionics, nor conventional espionage techniques.

[flatline]

for those trying to see how this is different from being 'just another guild'... think about it as a version of ThePirateBay, only in analog form and focused on magic. it's members freely share what they have with each other.. even the spells that other guilds protect rigorously as private intellectual property.
higher level spells would be in circulation because there would be no way for a Guild to prevent their members from joining this 'peer to peer' sharing network, and once a member of a guild shares the info on the spell with the network, there is no way to prevent it from being spread.
a guild can only punish a member which violates guild regs and shares the spells out.. but by then the damage is done. and if the member sharing the info is careful, no one should be able to tell who did it.

You sir have read my mind. I am flummoxed at the similarity between what you posted and what wandered through my own head.

Well, they could take out the network, for one.

As for finding out who did it... there's a LOT of spells and devices that would help with that sort of thing.
The spell Oracle, for example, can give a vision of "when or whom the mage is thinking about."
So if they thought about "the person who shared this spell," or "the person who gave this spell to (whoever)," or whatever, they could potentially get a vision of that person.
The spell Locate can help a mage "sense the general location of his quarry," which could help track down physical locations of groups that oppose them.
And that's just the first two spells that jumped out at me as I flipped through the BoM.
And it's not counting psionics, nor conventional espionage techniques.

I'm not going to touch Clairvoyance since its efficacy if purely up to the GM.

Locate, however, according to BoM p122, won't work for this as long as the spell provider stays anonymous: "To locate a particular person the spell caster must have either personally encountered the individual or a photograph of said individual must be available to him". It doesn't come out and say it, but I think the intent is that Locate only works if you know what person you're searching for, not some ambiguous description like "the person who shared this spell".

That said, it's a small world. It's hard to stay anonymous if someone is looking for you. If someone were regularly publishing spells, someone with access to the network infrastructure could probably track down where the target was publishing from (at least the geographic area) and then regular investigation techniques would probably be enough to seal the deal unless the target was taking extraordinary precautions.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

for those trying to see how this is different from being 'just another guild'... think about it as a version of ThePirateBay, only in analog form and focused on magic. it's members freely share what they have with each other.. even the spells that other guilds protect rigorously as private intellectual property.
higher level spells would be in circulation because there would be no way for a Guild to prevent their members from joining this 'peer to peer' sharing network, and once a member of a guild shares the info on the spell with the network, there is no way to prevent it from being spread.
a guild can only punish a member which violates guild regs and shares the spells out.. but by then the damage is done. and if the member sharing the info is careful, no one should be able to tell who did it.

You sir have read my mind. I am flummoxed at the similarity between what you posted and what wandered through my own head.

Well, they could take out the network, for one.

As for finding out who did it... there's a LOT of spells and devices that would help with that sort of thing.
The spell Oracle, for example, can give a vision of "when or whom the mage is thinking about."
So if they thought about "the person who shared this spell," or "the person who gave this spell to (whoever)," or whatever, they could potentially get a vision of that person.
The spell Locate can help a mage "sense the general location of his quarry," which could help track down physical locations of groups that oppose them.
And that's just the first two spells that jumped out at me as I flipped through the BoM.
And it's not counting psionics, nor conventional espionage techniques.

I'm not going to touch Clairvoyance since its efficacy if purely up to the GM.

Pretty much. A GM could screw over all clairvoyants, or could bend over for them, or anywhere in-between.

Locate, however, according to BoM p122, won't work for this as long as the spell provider stays anonymous: "To locate a particular person the spell caster must have either personally encountered the individual or a photograph of said individual must be available to him". It doesn't come out and say it, but I think the intent is that Locate only works if you know what person you're searching for, not some ambiguous description like "the person who shared this spell".

Again, the wording leaves a lot of GM interpretation.
If you're looking for a group, you're not looking for "a particular person."

Although, that's also why I mentioned Oracle- if nothing else, you might be able to get a picture of an individual from it.

That said, it's a small world. It's hard to stay anonymous if someone is looking for you. If someone were regularly publishing spells, someone with access to the network infrastructure could probably track down where the target was publishing from (at least the geographic area) and then regular investigation techniques would probably be enough to seal the deal unless the target was taking extraordinary precautions.

--flatline

Exactly.

Likewise, bad spells could be uploaded, like a version of fireball that creates the bolt inside the caster's lungs.

[Subjugator]

Object read would do it.

[flatline]

Object read would do it.

I'll admit that I haven't really been keeping up with the details of this discussion, but out of curiosity, what would you use Object Read on?

--flatline

[cornholioprime]

Object read would do it.

I'll admit that I haven't really been keeping up with the details of this discussion, but out of curiosity, what would you use Object Read on?

--flatline

The media or materials that the Free Magic people put the spells on in the first place.

[flatline]

Object read would do it.

I'll admit that I haven't really been keeping up with the details of this discussion, but out of curiosity, what would you use Object Read on?

--flatline

The media or materials that the Free Magic people put the spells on in the first place.

Oh, I thought that the materials were digital. My mistake.

--flatline

[cornholioprime]

Object read would do it.

I'll admit that I haven't really been keeping up with the details of this discussion, but out of curiosity, what would you use Object Read on?

--flatline

The media or materials that the Free Magic people put the spells on in the first place.

Oh, I thought that the materials were digital. My mistake.

--flatline

You're still going to have somebody to put the data into the media being used, or who turns on the switch in the factory that cranks out the CDs or books or whatever. You find person Number One, get information out of him and/or read his belongings, move on to person Number Two, and so on, and so on, and so on.

"Object Read" is probably one of the most underrated non-offensive spells out there in terms of raw utility.

[Damian Magecraft]

Object read would do it.

I'll admit that I haven't really been keeping up with the details of this discussion, but out of curiosity, what would you use Object Read on?

--flatline

The media or materials that the Free Magic people put the spells on in the first place.

Oh, I thought that the materials were digital. My mistake.

--flatline

You're still going to have somebody to put the data into the media being used, or who turns on the switch in the factory that cranks out the CDs or books or whatever. You find person Number One, get information out of him and/or read his belongings, move on to person Number Two, and so on, and so on, and so on.

"Object Read" is probably one of the most underrated non-offensive spells out there in terms of raw utility.

telemechanics would also aid in tracking the targets.

[flatline]

Object read would do it.

I'll admit that I haven't really been keeping up with the details of this discussion, but out of curiosity, what would you use Object Read on?

--flatline

The media or materials that the Free Magic people put the spells on in the first place.

Oh, I thought that the materials were digital. My mistake.

--flatline

You're still going to have somebody to put the data into the media being used, or who turns on the switch in the factory that cranks out the CDs or books or whatever. You find person Number One, get information out of him and/or read his belongings, move on to person Number Two, and so on, and so on, and so on.

"Object Read" is probably one of the most underrated non-offensive spells out there in terms of raw utility.

I just re-read the description of Object Read and it's not clear how much actionable information the power gives. I'm assuming that even though it says "last owner", that it really means the most recent person to possess the object long enough to leave their imprint on it, not the person who technically owned it. For instance, I would expect Object Read of a new item to tell me about the floor worker who built the item, not the CEO or largest stock holder.

I'm inclined to categorize Object Read with Clairvoyance: potentially awesome sources of information if the GM is inclined to let them be, but taking the descriptions at face value, not so much.

The description also gives the impression that Object Read is a one shot deal, but doesn't actually say that anywhere. Do you allow a psychic to use Object Read multiple times on the same object without a dramatically appropriate amount of time between (like sleeping or meditating or something)?

--flatline

[Nightmask]

I would expect object read to give me the potential to view the actual moment of purchase, since acquiring a new spell is an emotional effect for most casters. Thus, you know who bought it (that smoking of dominated caster right over there), who sold it (presuming there are no defenses against this, and that the seller/gifter was that careful), maybe where it happened (questionable use really, this isn't likely to happen in front of the sign saying welcome to Bassackwardsburg after all), and potentially a few other useful things.

That is sufficient to get the ball rolling at a minimum. Heck, considering the power of any given guild, its possible some of the better ones even have specialists that are trained to handle this sort of thing. Someone steals from the guild, or attacks a guild member (possibly killing them) and then hightails it out of there, there might be a magically inclined bounty hunter type to track them down for justice, which is whatever the guild can get away with. Maybe some variant of the spell casting super spy based more on the bounty hunter, both are in Mercs I think.

Jammit...I promised myself I wouldn't post on this thread!

I wouldn't qualify learning a new spell as that emotional, and there's not much chance of locating the original creator of the spell instruction manual given how many hands it likely passed through, and you're wasting a lot of time that could be spent on more useful things in any case than trying to hunt down and kill mages that decide to make spells more easily available. I really don't see where someone would see Object Read as so certain a way to pull off or even start such tracking anyway, certainly it wouldn't be treated so for PLAYERS trying such stunts.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm inclined to categorize Object Read with Clairvoyance: potentially awesome sources of information if the GM is inclined to let them be, but taking the descriptions at face value, not so much.

I'd say more that they're potentially awesome sources of information if taken at face value... but also potentially useless.

The description also gives the impression that Object Read is a one shot deal, but doesn't actually say that anywhere. Do you allow a psychic to use Object Read multiple times on the same object without a dramatically appropriate amount of time between (like sleeping or meditating or something)?

I might allow multiple attempts, but since most of the information doesn't change, it generally wouldn't do much good.

As for psychic abilities in this kind of scenario overall, I'd say that Machine Ghost is potentially useful, if things are being shared electronically.

[Eashamahel]

Since I don't want to start a new topic and it kind of fits here, I am searching through my books looking for a Guild creation guideline. I thought it was in the Adventure Guide, but the closest I can find is the Syndicates and Secret Organizations, so am I insane and that's what I used before, or is there a Guild Creation table hiding somewhere?

[Killer Cyborg]

Since I don't want to start a new topic and it kind of fits here, I am searching through my books looking for a Guild creation guideline. I thought it was in the Adventure Guide, but the closest I can find is the Syndicates and Secret Organizations, so am I insane and that's what I used before, or is there a Guild Creation table hiding somewhere?

Maybe in a Rifter.

[Ed]

for those trying to see how this is different from being 'just another guild'... think about it as a version of ThePirateBay, only in analog form and focused on magic. it's members freely share what they have with each other.. even the spells that other guilds protect rigorously as private intellectual property.
higher level spells would be in circulation because there would be no way for a Guild to prevent their members from joining this 'peer to peer' sharing network, and once a member of a guild shares the info on the spell with the network, there is no way to prevent it from being spread.
a guild can only punish a member which violates guild regs and shares the spells out.. but by then the damage is done. and if the member sharing the info is careful, no one should be able to tell who did it.

You sir have read my mind. I am flummoxed at the similarity between what you posted and what wandered through my own head.

In a world of magic and psionics, the idea that no one should be able to tell who did it is unworkable at best.

/Sub

Telepathy and esp alone would do the trick. A master psi with mind bond and hypnotic suggestion would find it a trivial exercise.

[Subjugator]

I just re-read the description of Object Read and it's not clear how much actionable information the power gives.

It could tell you who they are, which when combined with other spells/powers makes a heck of a difference.

I'm assuming that even though it says "last owner", that it really means the most recent person to possess the object long enough to leave their imprint on it, not the person who technically owned it. For instance, I would expect Object Read of a new item to tell me about the floor worker who built the item, not the CEO or largest stock holder.

I'm inclined to categorize Object Read with Clairvoyance: potentially awesome sources of information if the GM is inclined to let them be, but taking the descriptions at face value, not so much.

The description also gives the impression that Object Read is a one shot deal, but doesn't actually say that anywhere. Do you allow a psychic to use Object Read multiple times on the same object without a dramatically appropriate amount of time between (like sleeping or meditating or something)?

--flatline

You might only allow one attempt, but when there are lots of objects to use, it should be trivial.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

Wouldn't this free magic movement end in the guy getting "warned" over the consequences of their actions?

That's what many of us think, but those that don't are ignoring that aspect of it, insisting that they would be unable to be found. The fact that many spells and psionic powers would make doing so trivial doesn't seem to matter to them.

/Sub

[Drakenred®™©]

that and certain high power spells tend to have all kinds of interesting strings attached to them. after all expending magic energy is not quite like downloading the plans to a Preasure cooker bomb off the internet and assuming you get it right the first time.

or the Cad Designs for a programble CNTC lathe and Machning station so you can have it make you the parts you need for a gun.

(heck even thoes need to be assembled and bench tested... good luck with that if your a noob to all of this!)

[Drakenred®™©]

Lets put it another way.

the only reason why the CS has not launched a Volly of Tomahawk Cruis missles at New Lazlo is because there still debating doing that to the Magic zone, and aparently the CS does not yet see them as a big threat yet.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

I would expect object read to give me the potential to view the actual moment of purchase, since acquiring a new spell is an emotional effect for most casters. Thus, you know who bought it (that smoking of dominated caster right over there), who sold it (presuming there are no defenses against this, and that the seller/gifter was that careful), maybe where it happened (questionable use really, this isn't likely to happen in front of the sign saying welcome to Bassackwardsburg after all), and potentially a few other useful things.

That is sufficient to get the ball rolling at a minimum. Heck, considering the power of any given guild, its possible some of the better ones even have specialists that are trained to handle this sort of thing. Someone steals from the guild, or attacks a guild member (possibly killing them) and then hightails it out of there, there might be a magically inclined bounty hunter type to track them down for justice, which is whatever the guild can get away with. Maybe some variant of the spell casting super spy based more on the bounty hunter, both are in Mercs I think.

Jammit...I promised myself I wouldn't post on this thread!

I wouldn't qualify learning a new spell as that emotional, and there's not much chance of locating the original creator of the spell instruction manual given how many hands it likely passed through, and you're wasting a lot of time that could be spent on more useful things in any case than trying to hunt down and kill mages that decide to make spells more easily available. I really don't see where someone would see Object Read as so certain a way to pull off or even start such tracking anyway, certainly it wouldn't be treated so for PLAYERS trying such stunts.

no, you would be hunted down and killed just to make an example of what happens when you cross certain people, and no one will be coming to help you, or save you. But I can see you haven't really thought this thru, just the for the simple fact , one of "new" Mages you taught free spells to is part of the group hunting for you, and they found you. Look no magic needed to find you, all they would have to do is follow your trail.

[Killer Cyborg]

I would expect object read to give me the potential to view the actual moment of purchase, since acquiring a new spell is an emotional effect for most casters. Thus, you know who bought it (that smoking of dominated caster right over there), who sold it (presuming there are no defenses against this, and that the seller/gifter was that careful), maybe where it happened (questionable use really, this isn't likely to happen in front of the sign saying welcome to Bassackwardsburg after all), and potentially a few other useful things.

That is sufficient to get the ball rolling at a minimum. Heck, considering the power of any given guild, its possible some of the better ones even have specialists that are trained to handle this sort of thing. Someone steals from the guild, or attacks a guild member (possibly killing them) and then hightails it out of there, there might be a magically inclined bounty hunter type to track them down for justice, which is whatever the guild can get away with. Maybe some variant of the spell casting super spy based more on the bounty hunter, both are in Mercs I think.

Jammit...I promised myself I wouldn't post on this thread!

I wouldn't qualify learning a new spell as that emotional, and there's not much chance of locating the original creator of the spell instruction manual given how many hands it likely passed through, and you're wasting a lot of time that could be spent on more useful things in any case than trying to hunt down and kill mages that decide to make spells more easily available. I really don't see where someone would see Object Read as so certain a way to pull off or even start such tracking anyway, certainly it wouldn't be treated so for PLAYERS trying such stunts.

no, you would be hunted down and killed just to make an example of what happens when you cross certain people, and no one will be coming to help you, or save you. But I can see you haven't really thought this thru, just the for the simple fact , one of "new" Mages you taught free spells to is part of the group hunting for you, and they found you. Look no magic needed to find you, all they would have to do is follow your trail.

Right.
Basically, the same way that cops catch drug dealers- customers snitch on the dealers in order to get rewards or to avoid punishment.
For that matter, dealers snitch on dealers for the same reasons.
Except that the better comparison isn't customers and dealers snitching to the cops... it's them snitching to the cartels that you're undercutting them on their turf.

[Drakenred®™©]

ok lets review

it takes 2 days per level for a trained Mage who knows the spell to train an aprentice. this is Dedicated training by the way not just ok class of 40 heres your homwork asignment we will be back 2 weeks from now so have your crystals ready to cast the 7th level spell on page 119.

No this is you sitting down with someone for 14 days in a row, sometimes not taking time to bath or groom propely, pulling an all nighter every 1D6 days only to get 1-2 hours sleep befor throwing yourself back at those books and what have you untill you learn how to cast it without inadvertantly blowing your brains across half the room...and thats when your with a guy whos there to make sure you dont blow your brains across half of the room or to correct you when you go off track.

your alternatives are to use a spell scroll.... good luck with that one because the blunt reality is that the real world means that unlike mmo drop chances (which are based on more or less "riged" randomness the odds of actualy learning a skill are just that.
entirely random.

I would almost have to say that your odds of learning a spell from a properly writen set of instructions would have to somehow replace that are not very good at best.

the table in the GMS would seem to indicate that you dont realy have that good of a chance of learning a skill right off the bat(and also realise that a lot of thoes tables are riged so you dont end up killing yourself the first time you fail a spell roll) a more realisic aproach would be

From a Instruction manual WRITEN AS A INSTRUCTION MANUAL in a language you understand

2 Days per level of the spell
Chance to learn the spell at the end of that time is a base 15%+(IQ of the person writing the book 2% per level of writers experience) + (IQ of the person reading the book and +1% per level of Experience and +2 % for each simular spell they already know) to cast the spell for the first time. If they faill that roll... roll 1D10

Lucked out, no bad effects and you can Roll again to try to cast the spell again for the first time as soon as you get the PPE to do so.(all PPE spent)

Lucked out,you did not learn the spell but at least you did not die from the side effects, better hit the books and see if you can figure out where you went wrong(cast lighting bolt spell, find yourself "hitting the deck" when a block of ice goes sailing acrost the room kind of thing)(1D100% of PPE spent)(1D4 Days of re studying after your PPE levels are back to normal)

Lucked out, no usefull or dangerous spell effects, but you ended up drained of 1D4 TIMES the PPE needed to cast the spell... this might put you in a PPE deficit state known as "Burnout" unless you had a lot of PPE built up somehow just in case.... but fortunatly you can just"Rest it back"...and you might want to spend 1D4Days reviewing your notes in the mean time

you cast the spell...but... PPE cost was +1D4X what it was supposed to be(2-5X)...you can keep the spell "as is" or try to figure out where you went wrong.

you cast the spell and a "week" version of the spell happend (1/1D4+1 of the expected effect)

you cast the spell and you had a "spell runnaway" (1+1D4 Times the expected effect but the PPE cost was also (A lot)higher (2+1D4)(AND NO you did not learn the spell, the next time you cast it roll again on this table unless you spend 1D4 days after recovering PPE restudying)

you cast the spell and something completly random happens instead(Bascialy a random spell goes off instead, and it probably went off on something you did not want it go go off on ((1 you 2 a freind neareby 3 someone who does not like you or a "cop" type person 4 something you did not want that kind of spell to go off on) spell cost is;(1D6)
Expected cost OR the random spell cost whichever is Lower
Expected spell cost or Random Spell cost whichever is Higher
Expected spell cost AND Random spell cost
1+1D4X whichever was lowest spell cost
1+1D4X whichever was the highest spell cost
Average of the spell costs

Random spell effect happens to you(or something near by) (1d4 Days to restudy)

Roll 1D4 Times on this table....Good luck!

Roll 1D8 but need 1D4 Days per spell level to even think of trying again... not 1D4 days total.

Note that each day you pad your studys and prep work with more study and prep work you add 1D4% to your success roll untill you hit the 95% mark......