How Do We Get More People To Play Rifts

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

and yet we wonder why new people do not want to join rifts. the rules this but my house rule is this. the book says this but in my game its this. i no longer feel bad about leaving rifts, this is not the game for me and i will not ask new people to play.

I wouldn't be sad to see you leave any game i ran, that's for sure. You wouldn't play in my Heroes games either, because i impose balance restrictions there, too. Any good GM will.

[flatline]

and yet we wonder why new people do not want to join rifts. the rules this but my house rule is this. the book says this but in my game its this. i no longer feel bad about leaving rifts, this is not the game for me and i will not ask new people to play.

I wouldn't be sad to see you leave any game i ran, that's for sure. You wouldn't play in my Heroes games either, because i impose balance restrictions there, too. Any good GM will.

I've seen good GMs go either way depending on the type of campaign they were interested in running.

I'm not a particularly good GM, but I usually let the players decide what kinds of classes they want in the party, balanced or not, and then go from there. As long as the players are happy, I don't worry about it.

--flatline

[Sureshot]

First off Gm/Dms have as much power as the players are willing to give them. Push your players too far or anger them well you get a table that leads to a session of solitaire gaming. Unless your the only person running games in the area that you live in players can and will leave games. I'm also not saying that players should hold the Gm hostage either. If players make unreasonable demands then the Gm is within his right to get up and leave and find other players to game with.

The point I'm trying to get across is this. It's a fine balance between both sides. In our gaming circle any gm espcially a new one that tries to apply a god complex as a dm at the table gets shown the door. No exceptions. Same thing with a player. Starting making unreasonable demands etc. shown the door no exception. I have no problems with a gm saying no to a class or piece of equipment I want to take. As long as the person is respectful and gives a reason. And no "because I'm the gm " is not a good reason nor will it ever be in my book. If a gm tells me that the class is too powerful for his game or that the newer Glitternboys are too powerful to his liking I don't take them. Sure I am disappointed but hey I was given a reason and that is good for me. A player that just wants to play a Cosmo-Knight and I keep turning him down because I don't like the class and pulls a fit. Gets told to calm down and pick something else. Or is told to politely leave. It's all about mutual respect at the table. People forget sometimes it's a table of equals. Not two different groups imo.

[Damian Magecraft]

First off Gm/Dms have as much power as the players are willing to give them. Push your players too far or anger them well you get a table that leads to a session of solitaire gaming. Unless your the only person running games in the area that you live in players can and will leave games. I'm also not saying that players should hold the Gm hostage either. If players make unreasonable demands then the Gm is within his right to get up and leave and find other players to game with.

The point I'm trying to get across is this. It's a fine balance between both sides. In our gaming circle any gm espcially a new one that tries to apply a god complex as a dm at the table gets shown the door. No exceptions. Same thing with a player. Starting making unreasonable demands etc. shown the door no exception. I have no problems with a gm saying no to a class or piece of equipment I want to take. As long as the person is respectful and gives a reason. And no "because I'm the gm " is not a good reason nor will it ever be in my book. If a gm tells me that the class is too powerful for his game or that the newer Glitternboys are too powerful to his liking I don't take them. Sure I am disappointed but hey I was given a reason and that is good for me. A player that just wants to play a Cosmo-Knight and I keep turning him down because I don't like the class and pulls a fit. Gets told to calm down and pick something else. Or is told to politely leave. It's all about mutual respect at the table. People forget sometimes it's a table of equals. Not two different groups imo.

Agreed...
Yes it is an easy thing to just get up and leave the GM sitting there....
But have you ever wondered why GMs are out numbered by players at a margin of close to 10 to 1 or greater?
because no one else wants the damn job...
"have to deal players like me? Who wants that headache?"

[jaymz]

Damian, this is only relivant from a page or so ago, but just so you know man. There are rules with hard numbers for creating your own spells in Mysteries of Magic, so when people ask if there are rules for making your own spells, you can say "Yes!"

Just thought you'd want to know.

OKAY, as for this whole "G.M.s should allow everything B.S." (and it is B.S.!), that is the surest way to destroy a game. Its not only a matter of power, its also a matter of theme. If ANYTHING flies, than you end up with Cyber Knights/Cosmo Knights in your gungry NGR Cyberpunk Style game and Mages in your Coalition games, and weird combinations of superhero powers that are "unbalancing"

See, the concept that there is no game balance in Palladium is a lie and a misconception. Its just "balance" is based more off contribution over "power", just like in comic books or film. Each player should have the ability to contribute just as much as everyone else, regardless of their "power level" as per the Justice League or Avengers. The problem is, a lot of players want to be Superman but don't want the vulnerability to Kryptonite or any sort of emotional attachment/connection to any other person/place/thing. Worse, most of the time the players who want to be superheroes are power-gamers that essentially want power for nothing. "Why would I want to learn magic or be psionic when I can shoot blasts that do more damage and have no P.P.E. or I.S.P. cost? Plus, if its a superpower than no one can take it away and I don't need E-Clips."

This makes for BAD long stories unless that is the theme of the entire game, without vulnerabilities, weaknesses (mechanical or psychological "Being a child, etc.") than super powers CAN allow a character to turn themselves an unassailable wall. In fact, my first experience with super powers was someone pitching a character to me who was invulnerable (+700 M.D.C. and impervious to most forms of attack), and could turn into gas (which essentially made them impervious to the only things that could hurt them). Worse, the character was just "a mutant" who was "born that way" and looked 100% human. In fact, they were attractive. No drawback. No weakness, and an impressive suite of skills since they were a Vagabond. So, this character was essentially going to dominate every aspect of the game and take away a lot from the other players. "If we can get super powers, than **** being a juicer!" said another of my players, and from a mechanical point of view he'd be right. Why would anyone want to play someone with the flaws of a Crazy or a Juicer if you can just slap super-powers on another character?

That is my problem with it. So, I typically do not allow it. That said, in my current game, I gave each of my players a random superpower (rolled at random) from the book of heroes. However, none of them knew that coming into the game, so they're all still learning the origins of these powers, what they mean, and how to use them. So obviously I have NO PROBLEM with superpowers. However, I want them to be important, or interesting, or effect the character, rather than just being an excuse to have power X, Y, and Z at no cost, without bothering to thinking of how that would impact the story or your fellow players.

Anyone who seriously expects me to let ANYONE play WHATEVER they want without regard for the group, my plot, or the game's theme/setting, is frankly being a bit of a short sighted jerk. If I allow something, it is because it is manageable. If I don't, its because its not. If I am playing a HIGH POWER game (my last attempt ended with my players having no interest in being all-powerful, ironically enough), than I typically allow anything, even super-powers. However, I expect it to be done well and people doing DUMB ****, like picking power combinations just to make them completely impervious to all forms of damage in the game should still expect a hard no, and as a Game Master that is my RIGHT. Likewise, I think if MORE G.M.s just said "No" than people would typically have better game experiences.

And before that is refuted, I've had "power gamers" come to me after the fact and thank me. It took a LONG time (about six game sessions; 1 and a half months of regular gaming), for them to "realize" and "level up" enough to see it, but its happened.

A/S we may not get along but I don't think I have EVER read a post from you that agree 100% with as I do this one. Kudos

[say652]

i hope you step on a lego its gets infected and you go blind.

Warning: Violation of the forum Rules regarding harassment and totally uncalled for.

[jaymz]

and yet we wonder why new people do not want to join rifts. the rules this but my house rule is this. the book says this but in my game its this. i no longer feel bad about leaving rifts, this is not the game for me and i will not ask new people to play.

No offense but no where in rifts does it say a gm must allow a player to play anything they want. Don't like it don't play. Otherwise any complaining you do sounds more like whining.

[Eashamahel]

Sounds a lot like some of my players. I am constantly hearing questions about apps, PDF's, online content and all of those things. I think the largest turn off for most of them (other than the rules) stems more from lack of online support of the games.

I just think they have a hard time seeing SO MUCH product from other companies presented so well in print form, then learning that those companies ALSO fully embrace and support other media, and they look at me and wonder why anyone would want to play Rifts/Palladium, or if anyone else even does.

And really, they don't, but I do I love Rifts, and they are loving the game so far. Unfortunately, that's not going to transfer into ANY sales for Palladium Books, which is too bad, but the topic was 'how to get more people to play' not 'how can Palladium take advantage of a great market of new players'.

[Icefalcon]

Sounds a lot like some of my players. I am constantly hearing questions about apps, PDF's, online content and all of those things. I think the largest turn off for most of them (other than the rules) stems more from lack of online support of the games.

I just think they have a hard time seeing SO MUCH product from other companies presented so well in print form, then learning that those companies ALSO fully embrace and support other media, and they look at me and wonder why anyone would want to play Rifts/Palladium, or if anyone else even does.

And really, they don't, but I do I love Rifts, and they are loving the game so far. Unfortunately, that's not going to transfer into ANY sales for Palladium Books, which is too bad, but the topic was 'how to get more people to play' not 'how can Palladium take advantage of a great market of new players'.

True enough.

[Icefalcon]

and yet we wonder why new people do not want to join rifts. the rules this but my house rule is this. the book says this but in my game its this. i no longer feel bad about leaving rifts, this is not the game for me and i will not ask new people to play.

No offense but no where in rifts does it say a gm must allow a player to play anything they want. Don't like it don't play. Otherwise any complaining you do sounds more like whining.

I agree. Nowhere in the books does it say a GM has to allow you whatever you want. As a matter of fact, multiple times it says that EVERYTHING in the game is up to the GM's discretion.

[Icefalcon]

First off Gm/Dms have as much power as the players are willing to give them. Push your players too far or anger them well you get a table that leads to a session of solitaire gaming. Unless your the only person running games in the area that you live in players can and will leave games. I'm also not saying that players should hold the Gm hostage either. If players make unreasonable demands then the Gm is within his right to get up and leave and find other players to game with.

The point I'm trying to get across is this. It's a fine balance between both sides. In our gaming circle any gm espcially a new one that tries to apply a god complex as a dm at the table gets shown the door. No exceptions. Same thing with a player. Starting making unreasonable demands etc. shown the door no exception. I have no problems with a gm saying no to a class or piece of equipment I want to take. As long as the person is respectful and gives a reason. And no "because I'm the gm " is not a good reason nor will it ever be in my book. If a gm tells me that the class is too powerful for his game or that the newer Glitternboys are too powerful to his liking I don't take them. Sure I am disappointed but hey I was given a reason and that is good for me. A player that just wants to play a Cosmo-Knight and I keep turning him down because I don't like the class and pulls a fit. Gets told to calm down and pick something else. Or is told to politely leave. It's all about mutual respect at the table. People forget sometimes it's a table of equals. Not two different groups imo.

Agreed...
Yes it is an easy thing to just get up and leave the GM sitting there....
But have you ever wondered why GMs are out numbered by players at a margin of close to 10 to 1 or greater?
because no one else wants the damn job...
"have to deal players like me? Who wants that headache?"

Even then, if you have multiple GM's in a group they usually take different games. For instance, in my group I am the only one that runs Cyberpunk or any Palladium game. Another of my players is the only one running Rogue Trader. Another is the only one running Mutants and Masterminds. It goes on like that but I think you get the picture. While there are several games we all share running time, we each have something we are willing to run that the others are not.

[Bill]

There's a not unrelated thread on RPG.net at the moment. The consistent thread there is that the rules and the organization of the rulebooks presents a significant barrier to new players. Also that the RPG market has enough options present in it at the moment that anything one might wish to do with a Palladium title one could do more effectively with another book. Thoughts?

I do not necessarily disagree with those assertions. Though I do find the inherent crossover value of Palladium titles to be better than most other games. One of my better series was a Ninjas & Superspies/Beyond the Supernatural crossover. I could have run something very similar with GURPS or HERO using their genre supplements, but the tone would be much different because of the granularity inherent in those games. Feng Shui might have done a martial arts/horror crossover better, but it's been out of print for a while and thus tends to be challenging to sell to new players.

[Dunia]

still better than a flat out NO that is all to common on the forums. the examples i gave were questions that i needed to answer to use my super. and it forced me to focus on my abilities more. i think more people would play rifts if we argued less, listened to other peoples ideas, not always back up your friend, stop attacking people that are new to the forums and most of all stop saying "In my game" in a sentence directed at people who wouldn't play with you. acceptance breeds unity, unity breeds strength.

and here we see a prime example of the Player knows better than the gm.
that does not just chase players from your system of choice but the hobby as a whole.
It is the GM who has to juggle everything in order to insure everyone (not just you) has fun.
If he says no Powers then that means no powers it is his adventure and setting (yes the company created it but he has modified it) you have agreed to share. If you are not allowed one choice surely in the plethora of choices available there is another you may have fun with? If you cannot say yes then obviously instead of crying that GM X wont let you play Y you move on to a GM that will.

and as a gm i have never limited anybody elses creativity by allowing them to use any book legal class in a game. varying power levels in a party make for good roleplaying. especially in a game that sells itself on the FALSE premise of allowing you to be anything. the system is sound, the source books great, the players want to have fun, the gm's.....pfffffft. control freaks who destroy the whole basis of the game. at least in heroes unlimited you can actually play whatever you want to. rifts was eh.......and just broke down to trying to justify why to the gm.

I do not understand your line of thought. When I am about to start up something as a GM, I always lay out a basic overview of my campaign to my players. For example my last campaign, I said:

This time I will start the campaign inside or by the borders of Free Quebec who will be one of the major players in one way or the other. If you do not want any trouble with them, remember that they do not like supernaturals, magic or even psychic beings to the degree that they do not allow Psi-Stalkers or Dog Boys as the Coalition does. I do not say that you can't play it, but if you do, you might find more trouble if you show off any abilities and/or magic in their presence. Also, I want to focus on the development of your characters (not with skills or attributes), who they are in the world and their goals, wishes and dreams and the more you describe your character with friends, families and rivals or Enemies, the more I have to go with.
Also, I want characters from the following books: RUE (no dragons as it might force you to not participate for hours of game time as your shape shifting is not permanent), Black Market, Vampire Kingdoms: Revised and Mercenaries as well as these I have printed out from other books (and gave them a small booklet of papers).

I ended up having a group of humans (Body Fixer (minor psychic), Headhunter, Headhunter, Wilderness Scout and BM Expediter (major psychic)) and a True Atlantean Information Specialist-Mystic (major psychic) and I had no complains when one player first wanted to play a Godling or human with superpowers. After I sat down with him and explained how FQ deals with "undesirables" he agreed that it would make him miss out stuff as the rest of the players might venture inside FQ walls.


I would never ever had allowed you to play your character. Neither would any of my players, (i can say with almost certainty) and if you would have complained as you do here on the forums why you could not play such a character, i doubt that they would ever want to have you in the group again.

[rc_brooks]

Like many others have said, GM control is pretty important.

I typically find most classes can be allowed, but if it's something that doesn't make the most sense... then that player and I will sit down and discuss how it will fit into the campaign and what limitations will be imposed.

I've even allowed a cosmo-knight before, but they ended up not enjoying the character as much as they thought, due to the limitations I placed upon them.

GM's make or break Rifts, without a doubt. Creating enjoyable scenarios, controlling group makeup and enabling character development is all in the hands of the GM.

[popscythe]

The number one way to get people to play Rifts is to run Rifts games.

Let me explain to you people why the Rifts hate brigade gets so much attention, it's simple.

For every product, there are haters. Dislike, opinions, whatever, those people are not haters. Haters are people who will make a negative comment about something the moment someone mentions it every single time someone mentions it. This is not Rifts exclusive, though we've all seen Rifts haters hating in our time, locally or online.

Let's use D&D as an example. Start a conversation about D&D. Mention a specific edition, you'll get haters jumping in hating. Mention D&D itself and you'll probably get haters too, someone who thinks some other system is far superior and can't help but make a negative comment about D&D just because you mention it.

When new people hear haters hating on D&D, they think "it can't be that bad, I've heard of D&D before in a positive light many times and so this person must just be a hater and I'll ignore him and form my own opinion."

Now compare that to how Rifts conversations go.

New Guy: "What is Rifts?"

Rifts Guy: "It's this rpg about-"

Hater: "ARE YOU KIDDING BROKEN AS HELL MDC STUPID DUMB RULES CAN'T EVEN PLAY THE GAME ITS DUMB AND STUPID"

New Guy: "Oh gee, I've never heard anything about Rifts before so this guy must be correct, it must be stupid and broken."

Rifts Guy: "Wait that isn't-"

New Guy: "I'll just stick with D&D, it doesn't seem so controversial."

What Rifts needs isn't a new ruleset or a video game or something, it needs marketing. The more people know about Rifts before some hater jumps in to bash it, the more people are going to be playing it and enjoying it.

What we can do to help Rifts is stop sitting around on Palladium's board arguing about moronic garbage and start running games, in public and often.

I run a public game every week and I recruit from public websites to increase Rifts exposure. I'm doing my part. Now you guys who have been trolling this forum for 15 years straight arguing with each other do your part and get out there and run some games for new people.

[Eashamahel]

popscythe, it feels like there is a lot of bitter in your post, you gonna be okay?

I don't think anyone has to 'do their part' to get Rifts exposure, as last time I checked most of the people here are not employees of the company, but yeah, the consensus opinion is that if you want to get more people to play, you have to introduce them to the product and run games.

If you want to know why it seems like we the fans have to put in that effort to get new people to play, it has been pretty well discussed in here now, and has nothing to do with 'haters', stream of consciousness rants, or forum discussions.

[popscythe]

The first response to my post that could be summed up as "stop arguing online and start running games" is an attempt to start an argument.

[Eashamahel]

The first response to my post that could be summed up as "stop arguing online and start running games" is an attempt to start an argument.

Sure, you've been proven correct, huzzah.

The troubles of Palladium are in no way due to a Rifts 'Hate Brigade', and I am SURE the world is full of people who were GOING to play Rifts, but since it's so controversial have decided to play something else. I think if you had actually read what came before, instead of just responding to it, you would see that one of the problems with getting new players is that Rifts doesn't even come up as an option. It's not that some extremely vocal group follows potential players around talking down Rifts, it's that there is no one talking about it, at all.

Thus why the conclusion is, since Palladium can't recruit very many new players on their own, if you want some, you have to introduce them and run games.

See, it's actually the same solution that you came to, but for some reason you have to post an imaginary conversation and blame these 'haters' that seem to haunt your gaming stores and shoo people away from Rifts.



Aaaanywaaays...

Since, clearly, the best way to get more people to play is run games, I am curious to know how other potential GM's sell Rifts to new players, or convince them to try it instead of some other game?

Personally, I didn't really give anyone a choice, I generally say, 'I'll run a game of Rifts for you' and maybe we'll do something else later (I have old Masquerade WoD and the old Buffy game lined up currently as 'next' games, and I need to get learning a fantasy game so I can run that for people as well).

One of the selling points I do use though, is the 'sure, that sounds neat' idea.

One of my new players wanted to be an Elf (very Fantasy minded), and that was all she knew about anything gaming related. So we chose an Elf, then I just encouraged her to express her ideas, and we figured it out. You want to be an Archer or a Scout? Well, if Rifts those are skills, and you can do those AS WELL as something else. How about being a wizard of some kind as well? There's a Mystic, LLW, and Shifter. Yeah, if you were a Shifter, you could have an owl as a familiar, ect, ect. And thus we end up with an Elven Shifter.

Another had no idea, so she started with the old Random Roll origin. You are from a small tech area, a D-Bee infact, and you have a dog tail and oddly large eyes for your two random characteristics. Can you have a fox tail instead and ears? Yeah, no prob, and you are short and slightly built. Can you have a big robot? Yep, but would you rather be an ace pilot, a mercenary, or a wandering master of technology/master mechanic? And we have an Operator with an Ulti-Max

Another wanted to start with Random Rolls, then realized she could be an elf, then saw that there were dragons, and now we have a dragon.

The old salespitch of 'anything you can imagine' for Rifts is still a good one to draw in new players, especially ones unsure of the world, and guiding them through to the end result allows you to help shape their character (which is key, because I have never met a new to Roleplaying potential character who can make a Rifts Character on their own without reading the majority of the Rulebook, or needing real help at somepoint).

The well established world helps as well. The above new group started in N.A. but as they talked about what they like (TV shows, ect), I decided, you guys are going to head to England, which they were excited to find out was a book full of neat stuff.




The WORST thing you can do to a potential new player, I have found, is to just let them go at the library of Rifts titles. Unlike other games, there are really no books they know they don't need to check out, which means to get an idea of everything they can be/do from the established setting alone, and without the GMs help, they often get overwhelmed trying to read different character classes spread out in different books, why would i be this when I could be that, ect. I've found starting the way the books were released, and slowly expanding outwards, helps new players a lot.

Unfortunately they are not too interested in purchasing any of those books, as I find new players rarely are. Since they are not often available at shops, aren't well publicized, don't stand up to a lot of other products cosmetically, and mainly, because later books are filled with 200+ pages of AWESOME that very few people care about. Most new players seem to be easy to guide towards really specific books (like Juicer Uprising), probably because they find an idea they like and wish there was a 'Player's Handbook' type publication for it, and are not interested in larger world books.

[Bill]

I wouldn't say that I sell the game especially well. I run it every week though and as a consistently available game, it tends to attract anyone interested in RPGs that hasn't already got a group. I incentivise purchase of the rule book by only allowing players that have it to refer to the option of playing psychic or magic using classes.

[jaymz]

What we can do to help Rifts is stop sitting around on Palladium's board arguing about moronic garbage and start running games, in public and often.

I run a public game every week and I recruit from public websites to increase Rifts exposure. I'm doing my part. Now you guys who have been trolling this forum for 15 years straight arguing with each other do your part and get out there and run some games for new people.

I'm glad it works for you I really am but guess what? Plenty of do the same and get a net result of zero and in some cases a net result of a negative.

[Eashamahel]

I wouldn't say that I sell the game especially well. I run it every week though and as a consistently available game, it tends to attract anyone interested in RPGs that hasn't already got a group. I incentivise purchase of the rule book by only allowing players that have it to refer to the option of playing psychic or magic using classes.

Do you get groups to play Rifts by offering to run Rifts games to people who want to play an RPG (like I do), or do you convince people wondering which RPG to play to play Rifts? That might not be as clear as I was hoping it would be, but what are the main things you talk up when you talk about Rifts to your new players?

[Eashamahel]

I'm glad it works for you I really am but guess what? Plenty of do the same and get a net result of zero and in some cases a net result of a negative.

I think it helps to not try and talk Palladium's products/Rifts up AGAINST other games, but to talk about them on their own merits. Running a Rifts game in a store, don't compare how many people try it/stick with it in comparison to other games being run, just be happy that you can get some, and make it a pleasant experience for them.

[Icefalcon]

I'm glad it works for you I really am but guess what? Plenty of do the same and get a net result of zero and in some cases a net result of a negative.

I think it helps to not try and talk Palladium's products/Rifts up AGAINST other games, but to talk about them on their own merits. Running a Rifts game in a store, don't compare how many people try it/stick with it in comparison to other games being run, just be happy that you can get some, and make it a pleasant experience for them.

I have been told by gaming stores that they would not allow Palladium games to be run there.

[Eashamahel]

I have been told by gaming stores that they would not allow Palladium games to be run there.

That's crazy, any particular reason? I have been in stores that either won't allow other games to be played other than their own (usually flagship stores, like Games Workshop will only allow their products to be used to play), or won't allow games they don't sell. I would assume it was the latter of the two, as I realized recently just how FEW stores even carry PB's product line anymore.

[Nightmask]

I have been told by gaming stores that they would not allow Palladium games to be run there.

That's crazy, any particular reason? I have been in stores that either won't allow other games to be played other than their own (usually flagship stores, like Games Workshop will only allow their products to be used to play), or won't allow games they don't sell. I would assume it was the latter of the two, as I realized recently just how FEW stores even carry PB's product line anymore.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was because they didn't want to deal with the hassle of special ordering Palladium books if people liked them and *gasp* having to rework their shops to make room for them if they proved popular. Plus if they allow games and refuse to order them then they go online and none of the profit goes to the store so again they just don't allow them out of pettiness.

[Eashamahel]

Really? That's what you got from this thread and from your life experience, Nightmask? I don't know if you know this, but gaming stores actually make money from selling game books. If they could order Palladium products which would leap off the shelf, they would do it. The idea that game stores don't want to order Palladium Books products out of pettiness, because they are too lazy to order the books, and aren't willing to put in the effort incase they are popular items, is pretty nuts. Items get space in stores because they sell.

[Icefalcon]

I have been told by gaming stores that they would not allow Palladium games to be run there.

That's crazy, any particular reason? I have been in stores that either won't allow other games to be played other than their own (usually flagship stores, like Games Workshop will only allow their products to be used to play), or won't allow games they don't sell. I would assume it was the latter of the two, as I realized recently just how FEW stores even carry PB's product line anymore.

It is more because they don't want to waste the table space on a "defunct and failing" game. They have organized play nights for roleplaying, board games, miniatures and Magic (mostly Magic). They said I could try getting some people interested and run off-site and that they would special order books but they didn't see it generating much interest.

[Eashamahel]

Yeah, that was very similiar to my experience with stores considering Palladium a 'Dead Game' in general (and you can't really argue they are wrong).

[jaymz]

I'm glad it works for you I really am but guess what? Plenty of do the same and get a net result of zero and in some cases a net result of a negative.

I think it helps to not try and talk Palladium's products/Rifts up AGAINST other games, but to talk about them on their own merits. Running a Rifts game in a store, don't compare how many people try it/stick with it in comparison to other games being run, just be happy that you can get some, and make it a pleasant experience for them.

Let me clarify...when I say net zero I mean they aren't interested in the game enough bother with getting into the game further by buying a book and when I say net negative the people where actually turned off by the game and said they'd not recommend it to anyone. Thankfully I still get the same people wanting to play my games at the con.

[jaymz]

Really? That's what you got from this thread and from your life experience, Nightmask? I don't know if you know this, but gaming stores actually make money from selling game books. If they could order Palladium products which would leap off the shelf, they would do it. The idea that game stores don't want to order Palladium Books products out of pettiness, because they are too lazy to order the books, and aren't willing to put in the effort incase they are popular items, is pretty nuts. Items get space in stores because they sell.

Sales equal shelf space. basic retail economics. To say (and I know you didn't say it Eash) a store won;t carry books because it might make them rework their shelves etc is just asinine.

[Eashamahel]

Yeah, I have seen people turned off by the books before, not hard to imagine when you see the current standard of the industry, and not many new players seem interested in buying any of those books. Were they not interested because of the game itself, or because of it in comparison to other games? What led to them not having any interest in it, or having such a negative opinion?

[jaymz]

Well as per what feedback I got at the cons, while they had fun they by and large did not like the rules. The ones that have come back and played again said it was because they had fun in my game not because of anything in the system they liked and the ONLY reason they are playing again is because it was my game otherwise they would not have played.. Others I saw that didn't play again the following year said the system had turned them off completely and they I found out that when asked these same people recommended not playing Rifts at all.

[Nightmask]

Really? That's what you got from this thread and from your life experience, Nightmask? I don't know if you know this, but gaming stores actually make money from selling game books. If they could order Palladium products which would leap off the shelf, they would do it. The idea that game stores don't want to order Palladium Books products out of pettiness, because they are too lazy to order the books, and aren't willing to put in the effort incase they are popular items, is pretty nuts. Items get space in stores because they sell.

Sales equal shelf space. basic retail economics. To say (and I know you didn't say it Eash) a store won;t carry books because it might make them rework their shelves etc is just asinine.

You really should be more careful with your word choices, as asinine is a very poor choice and dead wrong in any case.

[jaymz]

Really? That's what you got from this thread and from your life experience, Nightmask? I don't know if you know this, but gaming stores actually make money from selling game books. If they could order Palladium products which would leap off the shelf, they would do it. The idea that game stores don't want to order Palladium Books products out of pettiness, because they are too lazy to order the books, and aren't willing to put in the effort incase they are popular items, is pretty nuts. Items get space in stores because they sell.

Sales equal shelf space. basic retail economics. To say (and I know you didn't say it Eash) a store won;t carry books because it might make them rework their shelves etc is just asinine.

You really should be more careful with your word choices, as asinine is a very poor choice and dead wrong in any case.

My experience in retail management tells me my words are dead on. No store owner in their right mind would deny shelf space to a product that sells due the inconvenience of moving their shelves around a bit. The fact you seem to think it is a possibility makes me think you have no or next to no real experience in the management side of retail. If you have an issue with my words you are welcome to report them as you deem fit, as I did not name names or point out who said what, only what I thought of such a statement in and of itself. The only thing I did specifically say was who DIDN'T say it.

[Eashamahel]

Yeah, hard to argue that the idea that store owners don't want to make profit because it requires work isn't 'asinine'- Synonym 'foolish'. They seemed more than happy to stop stocking Palladium and pick up new titles over the years, despite the fact that it required them to re-do their shelving and put in effort.

Anyways, anything else from anybody? Things that have drawn in new players? I would LOVE to hear from some new players who go into Rifts on their own, and why they did!

[Nightmask]

Yeah, hard to argue that the idea that store owners don't want to make profit because it requires work isn't 'asinine'- Synonym 'foolish'. They seemed more than happy to stop stocking Palladium and pick up new titles over the years, despite the fact that it required them to re-do their shelving and put in effort.

Anyways, anything else from anybody? Things that have drawn in new players? I would LOVE to hear from some new players who go into Rifts on their own, and why they did!

Surprising a concept as it might be for you there are people who'll do things that undercut their profits because they feel it not worth the bother (a friend had to deal with his branch of a company being closed down when it was the profitable branch in order to shore up a failing branch even when customers said they'd not transfer their business to the other branch) or have the perception something couldn't possibly be profitable so refuse to accept any evidence to the contrary. It would be foolish to refuse to acknowledge these aspects of human behavior because no business has ever been completely free of such influences on decision making.

So it would be foolish to not recognize the need to convince game stores and gamers that the game isn't a waste of money and can be more profitable than other products the game store sells and more enjoyable to the gamers than the other games available.

[Damian Magecraft]

Really? That's what you got from this thread and from your life experience, Nightmask? I don't know if you know this, but gaming stores actually make money from selling game books. If they could order Palladium products which would leap off the shelf, they would do it. The idea that game stores don't want to order Palladium Books products out of pettiness, because they are too lazy to order the books, and aren't willing to put in the effort incase they are popular items, is pretty nuts. Items get space in stores because they sell.

Sales equal shelf space. basic retail economics. To say (and I know you didn't say it Eash) a store won;t carry books because it might make them rework their shelves etc is just asinine.

You really should be more careful with your word choices, as asinine is a very poor choice and dead wrong in any case.

My experience in retail management tells me my words are dead on. No store owner in their right mind would deny shelf space to a product that sells due the inconvenience of moving their shelves around a bit. The fact you seem to think it is a possibility makes me think you have no or next to no real experience in the management side of retail. If you have an issue with my words you are welcome to report them as you deem fit, as I did not name names or point out who said what, only what I thought of such a statement in and of itself. The only thing I did specifically say was who DIDN'T say it.

This right is the key phrase...
I actually had a store owner tell me he wouldnt special order a Pally product because it wouldnt sell. ??? I am the one special ordering it and offering to pay the entire cost up front???
His shop is no longer in operation...

[Bill]

I wouldn't say that I sell the game especially well. I run it every week though and as a consistently available game, it tends to attract anyone interested in RPGs that hasn't already got a group. I incentivise purchase of the rule book by only allowing players that have it to refer to the option of playing psychic or magic using classes.

Do you get groups to play Rifts by offering to run Rifts games to people who want to play an RPG (like I do), or do you convince people wondering which RPG to play to play Rifts? That might not be as clear as I was hoping it would be, but what are the main things you talk up when you talk about Rifts to your new players?

Mostly, I talk up the setting to people that are interested in joining a roleplaying game. Whether they're in the market for a new game or not isn't something I investigate. I have enough regulars that will play anything I offer that I can host the game regardless of who else shows up and I keep it open for anyone that wants to sit in. I have pregenerated characters for folks that have not invested in a book or sat down with someone who has. I am willing to meet with people between sessions to help them with characters, but my availability is pretty limited.

[jaymz]

Really? That's what you got from this thread and from your life experience, Nightmask? I don't know if you know this, but gaming stores actually make money from selling game books. If they could order Palladium products which would leap off the shelf, they would do it. The idea that game stores don't want to order Palladium Books products out of pettiness, because they are too lazy to order the books, and aren't willing to put in the effort incase they are popular items, is pretty nuts. Items get space in stores because they sell.

Sales equal shelf space. basic retail economics. To say (and I know you didn't say it Eash) a store won;t carry books because it might make them rework their shelves etc is just asinine.

You really should be more careful with your word choices, as asinine is a very poor choice and dead wrong in any case.

My experience in retail management tells me my words are dead on. No store owner in their right mind would deny shelf space to a product that sells due the inconvenience of moving their shelves around a bit. The fact you seem to think it is a possibility makes me think you have no or next to no real experience in the management side of retail. If you have an issue with my words you are welcome to report them as you deem fit, as I did not name names or point out who said what, only what I thought of such a statement in and of itself. The only thing I did specifically say was who DIDN'T say it.

This right is the key phrase...
I actually had a store owner tell me he wouldnt special order a Pally product because it wouldnt sell. ??? I am the one special ordering it and offering to pay the entire cost up front???
His shop is no longer in operation...

not special ordering something is a far cry from devoting shelf space to something that sells in volume Damian. You know that as well as I do.

[Bill]

Are you guys trying to derail this thread again, or what?

[Eashamahel]

So it would be foolish to not recognize the need to convince game stores and gamers that the game isn't a waste of money and can be more profitable than other products the game store sells and more enjoyable to the gamers than the other games available.

Indeed, that would be foolish, as stores might need to be convinced to carry a product, especially a new one or one that didn't stand up in the past, however...

I wouldn't be surprised if it was because they didn't want to deal with the hassle of special ordering Palladium books if people liked them

No one wants to deal with extra hassle, but you might have to wonder why they don't carry Palladium books to start with, especially as many of them most likely used to.

and *gasp* having to rework their shops to make room for them if they proved popular.

Now, I think you might start missing something here. These stores? Most of them ALREADY reworked their shops to sell things that are popular. If gaming stores (which have been open for more than 10 years) hadn't reworked their shelving and started ordering new things/stopped ordering old ones, they would STILL be stocking Palladium.

Plus if they allow games and refuse to order them then they go online and none of the profit goes to the store so again they just don't allow them out of pettiness.

And here is where you lose me. Maybe you are just talking about a single particular incident and store you know about? Is this series of events something you actually think happens often, like, do you think the pettiness of store owners who don't want to stock or order Palladium books out of laziness is a serious and reoccuring impediment to new players? Does that seem like a hypothetical situation you expect to occur often?

OR

Do you think more often that it's because those stores don't want to use shelf space on a "defunct or failing" game, as was theorized before.

Honestly, which one do you think is more likely? It's okay if you think the first option, I just want to know so I can understand where you stand.

[jaymz]

I would think the shelf space or lack thereof devoted to Palladium products in various stores around the continent is rather pertinent to the well being of Palladium's games....

[jaymz]

I can tell you here and now all teh stores I have dealt with do not carry PB products, not out of some form of laziness or unwillingness to rejig their shelves, but because the books DO. NOT. SELL. When they did, these stores carried new Palladium product. When the sales stopped, they stopped carrying them. Now most of those stores WILL special order (Damian you need to live up here ) but they just will not carry them as a matter of course. Hell my local shop still had a 1st print run of RUE on it's shelf as of two weeks ago.

[Eashamahel]

I would think the shelf space or lack thereof devoted to Palladium products in various stores around the continent is rather pertinent to the well being of Palladium's games....

That is very true. I think why they don't get that shelf space has been pretty well covered, besides a few conspiracy theories about it, and for anyone that doesn't want to re-read the thread, go into a game store with a palladium book and compare it to the new game books out there, and you'll start to see the reasons.

And that is why we are having a 'how to get more people playing' conversation, which is interesting me greatly. I've started asking around to people I know and play with as well, but they are not a good source, since they either started playing with me, or I introduced them to RPGs in general or Rifts in specific, and I pretty much have GM'd every game I've played in for a decade and a half.

Which is why now I want ot know if there are any unbiased opinions from new gamers out there who introduced themselves to Rifts. Did you play any other RPGs before? How did you find out about it? Where were you exposed to it? What was your initial reaction to it and how do you feel about it now? I am especially interested in anyone who has come into it in the last few years.

[Damian Magecraft]

I can tell you here and now all teh stores I have dealt with do not carry PB products, not out of some form of laziness or unwillingness to rejig their shelves, but because the books DO. NOT. SELL. When they did, these stores carried new Palladium product. When the sales stopped, they stopped carrying them. Now most of those stores WILL special order (Damian you need to live up here ) but they just will not carry them as a matter of course. Hell my local shop still had a 1st print run of RUE on it's shelf as of two weeks ago.

well I was showing that stupidity does exist even with shop owners...
That same owner refused to carry anything but what a select clientele purchased (WotC d20)...
never mind that 5 times that number came in requesting other products...
His response was always "it wont sell".
his shop was forced to close it doors 2 years ago...
Due to lack of sales...

[Eashamahel]

Sadly, the parallel that is most easy to draw from that example, Damian, is not between that store and other stores, but that store and PB itself.

[Bill]

I would think the shelf space or lack thereof devoted to Palladium products in various stores around the continent is rather pertinent to the well being of Palladium's games....

Except that the topic of the thread is "How Do We Get More People To Play Rifts". If you own a retail store and want to volunteer some time, space, and energy to getting more players into the game, you'd be right on target. This masturbatory discussion of hypothetical bull's excrement is only driving potential contributors and meaningful discussion away.

[Icefalcon]

I know for a fact that not all distributors carry Palladium product. So I have seen several stores that cannot order the books.

[Eashamahel]

Yeah, it's really sad the state of things, and it's not going to improve without major changes from Palladium, which aren't coming. I am sure that the new Vampire book is better than the Revised Sourcebook, it's probably just as good as the original WB1:Vampire Kingdoms, which isn't going to help them since it's not 1991 anymore.

That being said, it IS a new book, and it IS going to be better than that Revised Sourcebook, so there is still hope.

Here's another one, has anyone out there made an App for Rifts or any Palladium products, or are there any fan podcasts? I know PB doesn't really do the whole self promotion thing, but a game like Warhammer for instance has MANY independent podcasts, and even if they only work on the existing fanbase, they create a constant interest that keeps that fanbase thinking and talking about them.

[jaymz]

I would think the shelf space or lack thereof devoted to Palladium products in various stores around the continent is rather pertinent to the well being of Palladium's games....

Except that the topic of the thread is "How Do We Get More People To Play Rifts". If you own a retail store and want to volunteer some time, space, and energy to getting more players into the game, you'd be right on target. This masturbatory discussion of hypothetical bull's excrement is only driving potential contributors and meaningful discussion away.

You are welcome to your opinion as rude as it was but part of solving a problem, you know getting more people to play, is figuring out how to circumvent the hurdles that lie in the way and you cannot do that without knowing and discussing what those hurdles are.

However if you have a solution that can do all that beyond the typical "run more games and players will come" then I am all eyes. (As to say ears would be pretty silly since I can't listen to what you say)