Nature of Dragons

[Nekira Sudacne]

I dislike Palladium dragons. I like the concept, but the game mechanics are horrendous. For instance, a splurgoth has over 40,000 MD while a dragon has, at best, 1000. If anything the situation should be completely reversed, Dragons having tons upon tons of MD and Splurgoth having a small amount.

Why? Splurgorth are alien intelligences, lovecraftian things that are supposed to frighten the gods themselves. Dragons are ultimately mortal, if very long lived, beings.

and heck, the splurgorth are stronger than all but the strongest gods. you saying the average dragon should rip apart the average god?

[Damian Magecraft]

I dislike Palladium dragons. I like the concept, but the game mechanics are horrendous. For instance, a splurgoth has over 40,000 MD while a dragon has, at best, 1000. If anything the situation should be completely reversed, Dragons having tons upon tons of MD and Splurgoth having a small amount.

Why? Splurgorth are alien intelligences, lovecraftian things that are supposed to frighten the gods themselves. Dragons are ultimately mortal, if very long lived, beings.

and heck, the splurgorth are stronger than all but the strongest gods. you saying the average dragon should rip apart the average god?

See, that in itself is wrong. You act as if the "gods" of ancient days and the "dragons" in myths are two different entities when really they're all inter-connected. Their really is no such thing as an "average" dragon, unless you mean a weak dragon which is a weak god, which is a weak star in the sky. The brightest stars are the strongest gods which are the strongest dragons. These things should be unmatched in might. No single entity should rival them. Armies are required to fight them, not one or two creatures.Dragons are the ones who are heralded as destruction incarnate, something I feel the world will be able to witness first hand in the coming days.

Even if you don't believe my "Theory"(since I do admit I have no hard "proof" thus it cannot be "confirmed") you can still see that logically something is wrong with the current situation. I mean think about this. The Splurgoth atlantis book says that the Splurgoth are rivals of the dragons and that they fear them also. Why would they fear vastly inferior creatures? Hell, why would they even be rivals with them? To fear something means you assume it can kill you, and if you're it's rival that means it's equal, or stronger, than you in strength(but not by a large margin). If they're so smart, and they are able to make expert plans that span millennium, why would they fear something that isn't even half their strength or half as numerous, or be rivals with them? ESPECIALLY when they have armies at their command? It's obvious the situation is REVERSED. And, for the record, lovecraft was a hack. If you want true horror read William Hope Hodgson.

Hack or not Lovecraft's name is synonymous with Horror for the average person.
Only a few know of Hodgson (and I found his writing dry and relatively un-exciting and far from horrifying).

As to the fear of Dragons in the Splugorth? All it takes is some sploogie crossing one of the Dragon Gods in the ancient past to instil that level of fear/respect. (Read up on the Imposter Tiamat's backstory to get an idea of why that would be).

[Tor]

You act as if the "gods" of ancient days and the "dragons" in myths are two different entities when really they're all inter-connected. Their really is no such thing as an "average" dragon, unless you mean a weak dragon which is a weak god, which is a weak star in the sky. The brightest stars are the strongest gods which are the strongest dragons. These things should be unmatched in might. No single entity should rival them

It sounds like you're talking about 'dragon gods'. These things are much stronger than adult or even adult dragons. There's a cult full of these deities in "Dragons and Gods", plus another in Rifts Africa, and 2 others in Pantheons of the Megaverse.

The Splurgoth atlantis book says that the Splurgoth are rivals of the dragons and that they fear them also. Why would they fear vastly inferior creatures?

There's more to superiority than MDC. Also keep in mind that there are probably more dragons in the megaverse than Splugorth AIs. Dragons could outnumber the Splugorth, for example, and they can easily disrupt empires by hiding amongst the slave populace. Dragons could easily raise armies against the Splugorth. A dragon's strength is not merely it's own combat abiliteis.

Hell, why would they even be rivals with them? To fear something means you assume it can kill you, and if you're it's rival that means it's equal, or stronger, than you in strength(but not by a large margin). If they're so smart, and they are able to make expert plans that span millennium, why would they fear something that isn't even half their strength or half as numerous

You think there are less than half the amount of dragons than Splugorth AIs? Usually you only find 1 Splugorth per planet (or planetary collective) compared to dozens, hundreds, if not thousands of dragons on Rifts Earth.

or be rivals with them? ESPECIALLY when they have armies at their command?

Dragons can also raise armies. But worse: they can disrupt trade.

Read up on the Imposter Tiamat's backstory to get an idea of why that would be

Having the same name doesn't mean you're an imposter =/ It's not like she came up with it, some humans started calling her that and TtY just kinda rolled with it.

Styphon is kind of a jerk, but some day MiniTiamat and Styphathal will find one another and love will bloom.

[Nightmask]

If by pity you mean a quick death vs a slow torturous one...

Ah, but isn't all mortal life a slow torturous death?

The CS has no reason to torture obedient d-bee workers. Injuring your workers reduces productivity.

Whether or not the dragons were doomed to become evil is irrelevant, it wasn't the dragons that the CS was after it was EVERYONE in Tolkeen, from adult to infant in the crib, with the sole desire to kill them.

Why were the Tolkeenites sheltering evil dragons?

They did not launch nukes at the lairs of said dragons they launched them at the heart of the populated citystate of Tolkeen where the majority of people were humans and many of them non-magik using. It was purely a 'you are not us therefor that entitles us to kill you and take all that you own for ourselves' situation.

I expect the CS was just probing their defenses and trying to exhaust their forcefields (the RCSG probably knew aaaalll about it).

The CS is not opposed to killing humans (even ones that don't use magic) if they foolishly defend magic-users and aliens.

Also again you clearly aren't reading the books. The CS has no pity or compassion for D-bees, does not care if they or their ancestors were transported to Earth and had lived there for thousands of years, does not care if they or a magic user is good or evil because their indoctrination process makes it clear that ALL D-bees and magic users are to be considered evil monsters to kill without remorse or concern for whether or not they might be good.

I don't agree, where does it say that the CS will by default kill every single d-bee? Those who don't use magic can be pitied (even if they must be dominated/exported/enslaved for human safety) as they didn't come voluntarily. Magic using humans can be pitied for being misguided. Where is the potential for members of the CS feeling pity and empathy for their enemies denied? Perhaps the violence the CS uses is a harsh but necessary-seeming choice.

ALL citizens are taught to believe that any d-bee or magic user that looks good is only engaging in some convoluted ruse and will eventually kill them in some horrific fashion.

So? Magic is unstable and brought about the Rifts. This is the gosh-darned truth.

I don't know if the CS has learned of Pyramids or Millenium Trees which stabilize magic energy and prevent rifts, but even if they did, let's keep in mind that the True Atlanteans had lots of pyramids and it didn't stop them from ruining the planet by opening the continental megarift.

Citizens that disagree where the secret police find out quickly get 'reeducted' or disappear into a cell or grave somewhere never to be mentioned again by those who knew them lest they get the same treatment.

I doubt ALL citizens do. Random quackbots are no danger. It's moreso those that show the ability to influence other's opinions and cause trouble with their lies.

EDIT: glancing at things again this isn't even the thread for that kind of discussion, it completely goes off track regarding favorite dragons.

True, let's steer it back.

Why should the CS allow your human converts to Dragonwright corrupt its innocent populace just so they can be eaten?

Uh no that really isn't back on track and never at any point did I or anyone else claim anyone was a convert to the Dragonwright religion nor is the population of the CS innocent, self-deluded but not innocent.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I dislike Palladium dragons. I like the concept, but the game mechanics are horrendous. For instance, a splurgoth has over 40,000 MD while a dragon has, at best, 1000. If anything the situation should be completely reversed, Dragons having tons upon tons of MD and Splurgoth having a small amount.

Why? Splurgorth are alien intelligences, lovecraftian things that are supposed to frighten the gods themselves. Dragons are ultimately mortal, if very long lived, beings.

and heck, the splurgorth are stronger than all but the strongest gods. you saying the average dragon should rip apart the average god?

See, that in itself is wrong. You act as if the "gods" of ancient days and the "dragons" in myths are two different entities when really they're all inter-connected. Their really is no such thing as an "average" dragon, unless you mean a weak dragon which is a weak god, which is a weak star in the sky. The brightest stars are the strongest gods which are the strongest dragons. These things should be unmatched in might. No single entity should rival them. Armies are required to fight them, not one or two creatures.Dragons are the ones who are heralded as destruction incarnate, something I feel the world will be able to witness first hand in the coming days.

Even if you don't believe my "Theory"(since I do admit I have no hard "proof" thus it cannot be "confirmed") you can still see that logically something is wrong with the current situation. I mean think about this. The Splurgoth atlantis book says that the Splurgoth are rivals of the dragons and that they fear them also. Why would they fear vastly inferior creatures? Hell, why would they even be rivals with them? To fear something means you assume it can kill you, and if you're it's rival that means it's equal, or stronger, than you in strength(but not by a large margin). If they're so smart, and they are able to make expert plans that span millennium, why would they fear something that isn't even half their strength or half as numerous, or be rivals with them? ESPECIALLY when they have armies at their command? It's obvious the situation is REVERSED. And, for the record, lovecraft was a hack. If you want true horror read William Hope Hodgson.

Sounds like you want to look up Dragonwright in Palladium Fantasy. The dragon-gods are as insanely powerful as you discribe, easially crushing the splurgorth. and that's what atlantis actually says, they are rivals with dragonwright and the dragon gods, just not any individual dragon. honestly the dragon-gods are pretty much the most powerful things palladium ever stated.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Sounds like you want to look up Dragonwright in Palladium Fantasy. The dragon-gods are as insanely powerful as you discribe, easially crushing the splurgorth. and that's what atlantis actually says, they are rivals with dragonwright and the dragon gods, just not any individual dragon. honestly the dragon-gods are pretty much the most powerful things palladium ever stated.

Well, I never read any palladium fantasy stuff(the idea of ), but in the rifts book they really do imply it's the entire dragon race. As in the "average" dragon incites fear and respect within most creatures. Hell, it's even stated that the average splurgoth minion would rather run away from anything above an adult dragon than fight it, but if we look at it's MDC, and the MDC of the average splurgoth minion and their weapons 2-3 could **** UP an adult dragon an higher. Obviously this is proof of the game mechanics conflicting with the intended lore, which means one of the two has to change to avoid such confusion, and considering game mechanics are nothing more than a vehicle for the lore it's obvious someone who revisit the rules and change them.

It sounds more like you don't fully understand a dragons power. MDC to MDC comparison is NOT very important in the grand scheme of things.

Dragons can teleport at will, teleport /dodge/ behind them, turn into anything, have vast magic.

Once you actually look at and comprehend the spell list, you'll see the real reason dragons are feared. it's not because they have the MDC of a space battleship, it's because they are garenteed the mystical power of an archmage simply by growing up IN ADDITION TO a host of awsome innate powers that cost nothing to use.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No offence, but having played Rifts for a good 8 years now, there is a lot more to combat in Rifts than the slugfest "I attack he attacks whoever has most MDC wins". This isn't even a matter for debate, I've seen it, i've done it. I've done it lots. You are provably wrong. I can could take out a glitter boy with a ley line walker and wouldn't even break a sweat. It sounds more like you have a GM who either dosn't understand the rules or simply handles encounters badly.

I'm completely serious here. throw me a high MDC monster* and I can show you how to beat it with a human with nothing but average and commonly available gear. I'd love to help you use mages more effectively. Used properly they can trounce MDC tanks so trivially it's not even funny.

*by high MDC i'm talking something most humans could reasonably be expected to fight. splurgorth and dragons and greater demons are for the advanced munchkin courses, lets break it in easy.

[Nekira Sudacne]

No offence, but having played Rifts for a good 8 years now, there is a lot more to combat in Rifts than the slugfest "I attack he attacks whoever has most MDC wins". This isn't even a matter for debate, I've seen it, i've done it. I've done it lots. You are provably wrong. I can could take out a glitter boy with a ley line walker and wouldn't even break a sweat.

But the question isn't whether you could take a glitter boy out with a ley line walker, which i'd have to see for myself and I can guarantee it wasn't a pure "he attacks then other guy attacks" scenario, their must have been a good deal of "stuff" that occurred that allowed you to do it which would vary from GM to GM without a doubt

To a degree, sure, my point is this: Those who rely heavily on spells should simply avoid "I attack he attacks" senarios, and use their spells to take it down. Not to mention so many combat control spells it's not even funny.

And the save or die spells...I mean seriously now. Dominate. Flesh to Stone. Mindshatter. Just one failed roll and the fight is over, no matter WHAT it is your fighting.

All of this stuff dosn't use houserules.

it's whether the dragons are represented in the manner than should be in current rifts lore. That is something that you cannot argue and I see you have not even tried to argue it. It's obvious the answer is NO with a resounding shout. The arguments are just piled up against it. And, to be fair, combat in rifts is exactly as i've described, because i've described it exactly as it is in the rule book. Sure, your GM might have some homebrew rules, but that's just it. Their homebrew. Also if you tried fighting, lets say, a splurgoth i'm 100 sure you would not be able to with a glitter boy OR ley line walker, regardless of your GM.

Sorry, even the rules as written, without any houserules at all, allow for stuff like invisibility, camoflauge, so many ways that YOU can attack while your opponent can't attack back. trap them in magic net. suddenly YOU can attack and they can't attack back. I can go on and on.


Now, am I addressing splurgorth? No. Obviously there comes a point where it stops mattering to mortals. Sure, 100 glitter boys arn't going to beat a splurgorth.

What you seem to be forgetting is your staring so hard at the splurgorth's MDC stat your overlooking their REAL power, which is a simply insane amount of magic. they have ALL spells, including spells from other dimensions you've never heard of, hundreds of thousands of years inventing new stuff for themselves, armies numbering in the zillions. Which is a large enough number, i'll point out, that they /could/ overwhelm a splurgths MDC. except the Splurgorth has innate teleporting powers and can simply flee before he takes serious damage.

Honestly, of everything that frightens me about a splurgorth, their MDC is by FAR the most easy to deal with

and as far as defending dragons as they are presented, your right, I havn't addressed it. mostly because there isn't any point in arguing. YOU have already decided that dragons are really gods, for reasons you havn't really made clear. There's nothing to attack. Your argument is "I want dragons to be gods"

Fine, I don't. I'm fine with dragon-GODS being these awe inspiring engines of destruction with as much MDC as a space battleship, and guess what? They DO have that much MDC. AND more innate powers than a splurgorth on top. and a crapton of magic schools. And basically everyone is afraid of them, especially splurgorth. They even fought an Old One and forced it into retreat one time.

I simply disagree that all dragons should be gods.

[Tor]

never at any point did I or anyone else claim anyone was a convert to the Dragonwright religion

I felt it was strongly implied. That's inevitably what allowing dragons to coexist what humans leads to.

nor is the population of the CS innocent, self-deluded but not innocent.

What are people guilty of, that they reach in delusion of righteousness?

Yeah, but the way their described is that they fear ALL dragons, or atleast that their fear and respect of dragons doesn't simply stem from a single incident, but that the entire "race" of dragons gives them the shakes.

Start hunting hatchlings, you'll **** off their adult parents. Start killing adults, some ancients will get concerned and intervene. Start wiping out ancients, the dragon gods will wonder what you're up to and step in.

If you'd gotten in a tussle with Wolvenar (a northern wolf god who has wolfen worshippers) wouldn't you step lightly around wolfen from then on?

The imposter tiamat is the dragon, I forget which book but maybe the africa one(the egypt part), who went on a rampage or something. I remember that vaguely, but I still don't see that that changes the fact that their is no way the splurgoth could ever be afraid of the dragons, if the splurgoth had tens of thousands upon thousands of MDC, while the average dragon has, at best, a couple hundred.

The egyptian dragon god is Apepi the immortal, who is as unkillable as Bennu and the Juggernaut. Tiamat the Younger is just some aspiring ancient in Pantheons.

I meant the myths that are the "inspiration" of the dragons in rifts. I was implying that the individual were all gods, and that they weren't a "Race" but a collection of super-powerful individuals. If you've seen my other posts on the subject, which i'm sure you have, then you know my thesis. The ancient gods were dragons.

I remember the main book's flavour text, no worries.

This is why I feel, that that most of the dragons depicted in rifts derive more from the modern lies that they're nothing more than talking reptiles, instead of super-powerful entities that are the physical embodiment of the stars.

Keep in mind that these dragons were 'gods' to primitive humans. Rifts is a world when normal men are gods by nature of having laser pistols that inflict 2d4x100 damage and have undamageable armor no matter how many arrows you shoot at it.

The dragons were not 'gods to Splugorth'.

A lot of creatures weaker than hatchling dragons also masquerade as gods, such as Sowki (2 impersonate gods in Pantheons). Goquas do also and they're weaker than adult dragons.

in modern rifts combat everything is a pokemon battle. One guy attacks and then the next guy attacks. While I don't like the modern rifts combat that's how the game mechanics explain it.This means that whoever has the most MDC will almost ALWAYS win this slugfeast, unless the latter had some super powerful attack that took THOUSANDS of MDC off with a single hit, per hit,(which no attack does to my knowledge).

This ignores factors such as attacks per melee, strike/parry bonuses and flight.

The average dragon melee attack does, at best, 2-3 MD.

Not sure where you got this. Even looking at the minimal claw/breath weapon damage (2D6) the average is 7 MD

If the splurgoth have tens of thousands of MD(I think the leader of atlantis has like 50,000 MDC+) they wouldn't be afraid of ANY dragon, as the average dragon has a few hundred of MDC. That, and the fact that the splurgoth do more damage, on average, and have greater regeneration, on average, than the "average" dragon in modern game mechanics means that their is NO WAY the splurgoth could be afraid of dying in a confrontation with a dragon.

Splynncryth would have a harder time with a dragon god. D&G chars can around 2d6x100 per attack at times.

That means the splurgoth would SLAUGHTER pretty much every dragon it came across, except for these fabled "Dragon gods" that are being brought up.

Not sure what you mean by 'brought up'. The cult and Styphon are both mentioned in Rifts Atlantis. You know Thoth, from Rifts Africa, who hangs out with Splynncryth sometimes (he's everyone's bud but Amon's, though oddly she's also Splynn's friend)? Kym-nark-Mar, one of the Dragonwright Gods, is who helped Thoth seal the Old Ones away.

Hell, the average splurgoth, based off these stats, could slaughter dozens, maybe even hundreds, of dragons without dying as they regenerate at a phenomenal rate based on the stats given in atlantis. You don't' fear something you can slaughter by the dozen.

I'm quite confident a dozen dragons could more than counter Splynncryth's regenerative abilities.

Let's keep in mind that dragons can obtain and do carry weapons too. It's not all claws and fire breath.

However, as i stated before, the entire "Race" of dragons, down to the individual, is assumed to inspire this fear inside of splurgoth so obviously something is wrong here.

Atlantis specifies that dragons are treated differently based on their maturity. Only ancients get that whole fearful thing, adults to a lesser degree. Hatchlings are treated politely but they get less awe. That's because the reasons hatchlings are treated well is probably because wiping them out would cause the Splugorth some series problems in the Megaverse, dragons don't like genocide.

None of this adds. You can't be afraid of something when you are clearly superior to it and that they, based on game mechanics, cannot even dream of harming you.

It's not an individual Splugorth being afraid of an individual Dragon. It's 100 Splugorth being afraid of 10 million dragons. Does that make it clearer?

See that in itself is a problem. Dragons are never said to be reproducing at a phenomenal rate, nor are they ever described as having numerous offspring. Logically, why would a super powerful being derive all it's power from having many other dragons, if dragons are solitary beings who are nations unto themselves?

My point is not that dragons are numerous compared to other species (humans clearly dwarf them in most settings). It's that they're more numerous than Splugorth. 'A nation unto oneself' is still tiny compared to 'ten planets into onself'.

Whatever minor nations that dragons ruled over were pretty tiny. Let's assume Greece had been divided amongst several dragons who actually were the Greek gods: it's a big chunk of land, but it's not Atlantis, much less Earth, much less Klynncryth's hold on the Three Galaxies.

If reproduction and having many other dragons fighting alongside them is how dragons fight strong enemies, why would baby dragons be born away from their parents, usually in a separate dimension?

Dragons grow up alone so they become strong, and they can fend for themselves against most things. The necessity of teaming up to fight strong enemies would be rare, such as if the Splugorth started committing genocide against them.

Odds are they tried this for whatever reason in the past, got smashed, and now part of the agreement is they can't murder any dragons lest the horn be sounded again and this time they'll not be spared.

If Demon Dragonmages ever multiplied and organise a massive dragon genocide (Dragon Juicers also pose this risk) this could happen again. But it'd have to be a huge threat, otherwise dragons might be more likely to just run away.

Why would their be thousands of dragons when dragons are always thought of solitary individuals of extreme might?

Because it's a big Megaverse.

Counting up every single dragon NPC on Rifts earth you will find a sizeable amount. That's ignoring the pure numbers given in some places like Freehold or Dweomer.

As I've said before, everything I've read leads me to the conclusion that the situation is reversed, that it is the dragons who are the invidividuals and who have such massive amounts of power while the Splurgoth, while strong, aren't nearly their equal.

Are you basing this solely on the main book? Have you read Atlantis?

Keep in mind that Erin Tarn is an idiot who thinks that "Splugorth the Terrible" is basically one of these guys: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... _1990.jpeg and that she's never heard the name Splynncryth.

On the other hand, if you look at Splurgoth they seem to be fast reproducing.

Were this so, you'd figure we'd see more of them. How many specific Splugorth have actually been referred to by name? We have Splynncryth on Earth, Klynncryth in the Three Galaxies ... are there more?

Why do I say this? Let me explain a theory I have been holding inside for quite some time. As I read through numerous Splurgoth lore I noticed that the "eyes of eylor" look very similar to the eyes that the Splurgoth have. Splurgoth reproduction is never elaborated upon, but all are described as male. What if splurgoth reproduce in the same manner as many deep-sea creatures, in the sense that they release spores that bud into full Splurgoth? I believe that the Splurgoth have many, MANY offspring, and that each one that doesn't "meet the cut" is killed, or atleast turned into something more useful, such as an eye of eyelor. I feel that the notion that the Splurgoth are individual beings of great power is wrong, and should be attributed to dragons instead, while the idea of a race of semi-powerful creatures with large numbers is characteristic of the Splurgoth. While I can't support this theory with "hard" proof, if you use logic you can see how this holds weight.

Your logic is only "splugorth have a big eye and enslave Eyes of Eyelor". By that logic, all Dragonsaurus in Atlantis are pre-hatchling dragons =/

if the Splurgoth are so powerful wouldn't that be nothing more than a nuisance? They'd be on the same level as the temporal raiders who attack the marketplaces of the Splurgoth. Why would they ever be "afraid" or "respect" them any more than any other nuisance?

They can kill Raiders without repercussion. If you go wiping out a lot of little dragons, the bigger ones will eat you.

And yes, dragons can raise armies, but so can any other creature with hundreds of MD. That still doesn't explain why the Splurgoth would be PERSONALLY afraid of EVERY dragon (save for hatchlings if such a term even exists).

Yes, the term 'hatchling' exists. It's in the Rifts Main Book. The same book where you got the idea that dragons (probably adult ones) impersonated gods in humanity's past.

Which is nothing when you consider teleporting takes up an attack, so they basically only dodge one attack and lose the ability to attack back

Teleport tactics involve more than just dodging. Such as 'I am dropping a fusion block a mile above you'. Someone remind me: can Splugorth even dodge? They look somewhat immobile.

While they can metamorphosis, it's usually only for one hour(unless you're a chinag-ku or chinese dragon)

What you're describing is a level 1 hatchling. If you're going to pit a dragon against a Splugorth at least make it an adult one. Splugorth are millenia older than your average ancient dragon, it's only fair.

Their "vast magic" is also useless, because the magic system in rifts is bad

Apparently in RUE it got better/faster.

The average slpurgoth has 3D4X 10,000 MDC

That's the usual for alien intelligences. The stats in CB1 and D&G for AIs are similar.

How could the splurgoth ever EVER be afraid of dragons? Styphathal only has 9500 on his main body, and this is supposed to be one of the strongest dragons!

No, he isn't. The dragon gods are the strongest dragons. Splynncryth isn't afraid of Styphathal. They're buddies and Styphathal is working with him. The Splugorth are afraid of the combined weight of dragons, not individual dragons.

Dragons should be the ONLY creatures in the megaverse with High M.D.C, everything else should have little to no M.D.C

Why? Your whole idea is based on the description as dragons being worshipped as gods by primitive humans. This didn't happen to just dragons, it happened to other creatures revealed in later books too.

Dragons SHOULD have the M.D.C of a space battleship. They are that powerful. That's what makes them feared throughout the megaverse.

No, they aren't that powerful. Having the MDC of a tank (hatchling) or runner ship (adult) or carrier (god) is quite adequate.

"magic spells" are worthless

You just don't know enough magic

knowing alot of them doesn't make you a better fighter.

Tell that to the Battle Magi. Or anyone enchanted with Fleet Feet.

since dragons need to replenish their P.P. from external sources, and don't have a font of power lying within them contrary to what logic dictates, means that they're pathetically underpowered in modern game mechanics.

Dragons regenerate PPE from within via rest and meditation like everyone else. No idea what you mean. Yes, normal dragons aren't as powerful as AIs. Being weaker than an AI isn't underpowered.

They do a couple of MDC, at best. That means nothing against opponents with THOUSANDS of MDC who do JUST AS MUCH IF NOT MORE damage than the dragon in question. This is a slap in the face of the lore that says dragons are a mega-power in the megaverse, and it contradicts the truth of what dragons really are.

Your stats are so off-base that I'm beginning to suspect you're trolling. Normally I avoid such insinuations, but to say that 2MD is the maximum amount of damage a dragon can inflict? It's the minimum, prior to Super PS tables.

Adult dragons have thousands of MDC. =/

if dragons were "feared' THEYED be the ones with thousands of MDC

You don't need thousands of MDC to be feared. Nostrous Dunscon, the leader of the FoM, has under 100 MDC. The emperor of the CS is feared and he is an SDC creature.

splurgorth and dragons and greater demons are for the advanced munchkin courses, lets break it in easy.

Many of us min-max power gamers find that term offensive =/

[flatline]

3d4x10000 MDC? That's pretty impressive. That's an average of 75,000MDC.

But I still don't see how that makes dragons less impressive than they are. You're comparing a creature of magic to a being that would be a god.

But just for fun, how big is 75k MDC? Well, ignoring magical defenses and regeneration, it's...
...21429 shots from the venerable wilks laser pistol (3.5MD avg)
...2143 3-shot-bursts from the wilks pulse laser rifle (35MD avg)
...7143 shots from the glitterboy boomgun (105MD avg)
...3572 attacks from a Sword of Atlantis (sword does double damage to alien intelligences and splugorth take triple damage from magic weapons, so each hit does a whopping 6d6x10MD for an average of 210MD).
...1786 dual attacks when dual wielding two Swords of Atlantis.
...50 annihilate spells (2d4x100 times 3 due to the splugorth vulnerability to magic for an average 1500MD)

So, yeah, they're pretty durable.

Although you have to admit, making 50 scrolls of annhihilate and recruiting 50 people who are literate doesn't seem like a lot of work to kill a would-be-god (assuming you have a way to get them within range of the splugorth without the splugorth dimensional teleporting).

--flatline

[flatline]

Perhaps the splugorth fear dragons not because they feel that the dragons represent a personal threat, but rather a threat to their organization (which is the splugorth's true source of power anyways). There are few splugorth minions that are a match for a dragon and a dragon can trivially infiltrate splugorth territory using shapeshifting, teleport, and any magic the dragon may happen to have.

Heck, a hungry dragon could cost a splugorth a small fortune if it decided to make a meal out of slave stock.

--flatline

[Damian Magecraft]

But that's the thing. Dragons ARE the gods. You can't say something shouldn't be what it is. Dragons were ALWAYS the ancient gods, I mean the name of "dragons" is synonymous with "gods" in numerous ancient cultures. It's only with the modern obfuscation of the truth that we are told that the "gods" and "dragons" are different. That's my entire thesis. Rifts should represent dragons in a more truthful manner. Nothing should be purported, because that creatures confusion and it creatures an inferior experience for those with the intellect to see through the lies but not knowing what is the truth. Now, i'm not saying every single dragon should have thousands upon thousands of M.D.C, but from what current rifts tells us the amount of M.D.C that they DO have is pathetically small and does not represent the power that the lore says they have.

Back this up with canon or its just wishful thinking.

[Tor]

having a few "insta-kill" spells doesn't mean that the entire current magic system is weak as ****.

I assume you mean 'insta kill spells don't mean the magic system is strong' or 'insta kill spells don't mean the magic system isn't weak'.

Make a single mage able to wipe out a squad of coalition dead boys and maybe we can talk, but the current system is pathetic.

A single mage could. Especially a high level one.

100 glitter boys would most certainly kill and adult dragon using current rifts game mechanics

I'm pretty sure a single glitter boy could take out a hatchling, I imagine 3 might potentially be enough to kill an adult. But why would glitter boys want to shoot an adorable kitten with their boom gun?

it should take 1000 glitter boys to give an ancient dragon a challenge

Why? A thousand men, perhaps, but a glitter boy is a walking tank.

I also feel all giant robots in rifts are hilariously overpowered.

Actually most giant robots in Rifts are hilariously UNDERpowered.

Power armor (which the Glitter Boy happens to be) has a much higher efficiency in terms of how much MD inflicting and MDC absorbing capacity you get for it light weight and low cost.

How can someone thing so powerful be afraid of dragons? Obviously its because they are either not as powerful, or that dragons are more powerful, then current rifts lore. To make things more logical everything needs to get drastically weaker, or dragons need to be buffed by a large, large degree.

No, your logic isn't correct here. You don't need to be able to utterly devastate to make them afraid of you.

Why are some humans afraid of bugs or snakes? Because there are rare ones which might be life-threatening and it might be one of those? Maybe that's how Splugorth think of dragons and the Gods of Dragonwright.

They are afraid of the collective species.

Many powerful DBs are afraid of humans. I wager there are many dragons utterly frightened of the Coalition States, for example. I imagine Plato is.

Plato could wipe the floor with any human, but he is afraid of them because of the collective threat they would pose if he had to fight them all.

That would be the Splugorth logic. There is no need to make dragons as powerful as AIs to make it logical that the Splugorth are wary of them.

You're further proving my point. If the dragon-gods are this powerful it stands the reason that the other dragons should be atleast on par with the Splurgoth in might, which means the Splurgoth need to get weaker, and everything else that has comparable M.D.C, or the average dragon should get more M.D.C. Their shouldn't even be anything OTHER than the "Dragon-gods".

Let me explain this to you: the reason that dragons could have been "gods" on ancient earth is becaue ancient humans are SDC weaklings who lacked magic and could be torn apart by a supernatural creature.

The dragon-gods of Dragonwright are powerful, powerful enough to probably beat a Splugorth 1 on 1, but I imagine 2 Splugorth could easily defeat any individual (even a badass like Styphon). Part of the reason gods band together is to help each other though, so collectively they present a threat to various Splugorth. Since the Splugorth compete with each other, they won't readily unify against an enemy, but dragons will unify if a stupid Splugorth decides to start a genocide against them.

But that's the thing. Dragons ARE the gods. You can't say something shouldn't be what it is. Dragons were ALWAYS the ancient gods

No, they were not. The main book only said they could have been some of them.

I mean the name of "dragons" is synonymous with "gods" in numerous ancient cultures.

Irrelevant, not every ancient culture is canon in Rifts.

It's only with the modern obfuscation of the truth that we are told that the "gods" and "dragons" are different. That's my entire thesis.

Obfuscation of what 'truth'? This is mythology. It's made-up. No proof.

Rifts should represent dragons in a more truthful manner.

There isn't one. They're make believe.

the amount of M.D.C that they DO have is pathetically small and does not represent the power that the lore says they have.

The power dragons had in lower was against humans wielding clubs and wearing leathermail. Not modern technology. Certainly no Golden Age or Rifts-era technology.

The average hatchling has 250 MDC. That's as much as a suit of power armor. Dragons can also morph into human form and WEAR power armor on top of that, supposing they get the pilot skill.

The average adult has around a thousand or so and that's more than teh giant robots created by the CS and NGR. Only Phase World level technology surpasses Ancient Dragons.

I don't understand your complaints.

[Nekira Sudacne]

To a degree, sure, my point is this: Those who rely heavily on spells should simply avoid "I attack he attacks" senarios, and use their spells to take it down. Not to mention so many combat control spells it's not even funny.

And the save or die spells...I mean seriously now. Dominate. Flesh to Stone. Mindshatter. Just one failed roll and the fight is over, no matter WHAT it is your fighting.

All of this stuff dosn't use houserules.

Well i'm sure splurgoth have high as **** rolls. I'll recheck but I know they're meant to be able to ignore **** like that. On the note about magic, having a few "insta-kill" spells doesn't mean that the entire current magic system is weak as ****. Make a single mage able to wipe out a squad of coalition dead boys and maybe we can talk, but the current system is pathetic.

A single mage wipe out a squad of dead boy grunts? You'd need to be a decent level, but trivial.

Sorry, even the rules as written, without any houserules at all, allow for stuff like invisibility, camoflauge, so many ways that YOU can attack while your opponent can't attack back. trap them in magic net. suddenly YOU can attack and they can't attack back. I can go on and on.

You're misreading me here. I never said you can't attack an opponent and they can't attack back. I'm saying that teleporting taking up one of your attacks for a round makes teleporting far weaker than it makes it out to be.

Depends on where you teleport to. teleport behind cover, or behind allies, or behind a door. use terrain to your advantage.

Now, am I addressing splurgorth? No. Obviously there comes a point where it stops mattering to mortals. Sure, 100 glitter boys arn't going to beat a splurgorth.

And they should not. However, 100 glitter boys would most certainly kill and adult dragon using current rifts game mechanics, which I Feel is terribly wrong. If anything it should take 1000 glitter boys to give an ancient dragon a challenge, but then again I also feel all giant robots in rifts are hilariously overpowered.

Really? by real-world science they are hilariously underpowered. Not to mention absurdly designed. There is no reason whatsoever to make mecha humanoid. it adds weaknesses and gives no advantages over a modern tank design.

What you seem to be forgetting is your staring so hard at the splurgorth's MDC stat your overlooking their REAL power, which is a simply insane amount of magic. they have ALL spells, including spells from other dimensions you've never heard of, hundreds of thousands of years inventing new stuff for themselves, armies numbering in the zillions. Which is a large enough number, i'll point out, that they /could/ overwhelm a splurgths MDC. except the Splurgorth has innate teleporting powers and can simply flee before he takes serious damage.

Which furthers my point. How can someone thing so powerful be afraid of dragons? Obviously its because they are either not as powerful, or that dragons are more powerful, then current rifts lore. To make things more logical everything needs to get drastically weaker, or dragons need to be buffed by a large, large degree.

OR maybe they are afraid of dragons as a whole for what they can do, and not afraid of a one on one confrontation.

Honestly, of everything that frightens me about a splurgorth, their MDC is by FAR the most easy to deal with

Well that still doesn't refute anything.

It more highlights the fact your severely underestimating magic. I'm not trying to talk down to you, I really think if you stop thinking in terms of a whiteroom "You have 20 deadboys and 1 ley line walker in a grey empty void, GO" and start thinking of how to use magic in real-world situations you can see how frighteningly powerful a decent ley line walker with a good library of spells can be. YOU have magic. YOU control the battlefeild. I'm not talking about "houserules", i'm talking about playing the game as it's written.

Fine, I don't. I'm fine with dragon-GODS being these awe inspiring engines of destruction with as much MDC as a space battleship, and guess what? They DO have that much MDC. AND more innate powers than a splurgorth on top. and a crapton of magic schools. And basically everyone is afraid of them, especially splurgorth. They even fought an Old One and forced it into retreat one time.

You're further proving my point. If the dragon-gods are this powerful it stands the reason that the other dragons should be atleast on par with the Splurgoth in might, which means the Splurgoth need to get weaker, and everything else that has comparable M.D.C, or the average dragon should get more M.D.C. Their shouldn't even be anything OTHER than the "Dragon-gods". If their are than they shouldn't be half as weak as they're depicted currently.

I simply disagree that all dragons should be gods.

and as far as defending dragons as they are presented, your right, I havn't addressed it. mostly because there isn't any point in arguing. YOU have already decided that dragons are really gods, for reasons you havn't really made clear. There's nothing to attack. Your argument is "I want dragons to be gods"

I've clearly elaborated it. It should be realistic. That's it's condensed form. Dragons should be more accurate to their truthful occurances in reality.

But that's the thing. Dragons ARE the gods. You can't say something shouldn't be what it is. Dragons were ALWAYS the ancient gods, I mean the name of "dragons" is synonymous with "gods" in numerous ancient cultures. It's only with the modern obfuscation of the truth that we are told that the "gods" and "dragons" are different. That's my entire thesis. Rifts should represent dragons in a more truthful manner. Nothing should be purported, because that creatures confusion and it creatures an inferior experience for those with the intellect to see through the lies but not knowing what is the truth. Now, i'm not saying every single dragon should have thousands upon thousands of M.D.C, but from what current rifts tells us the amount of M.D.C that they DO have is pathetically small and does not represent the power that the lore says they have.

Okay, stop and think for a minute. You admited you have no "proof" of these claims. So I am to accept the word of someone I never met in my life that everything I know about ancient mythology is wrong.

Don't you think your being just a weee bit irrational here? again, I don't know you, so how do I know your right?

[flatline]

SonofSaturn,

You seem to have an idea of what you want dragons to be that is different from what they are in this setting.

That's totally cool, but that doesn't mean that the dragons, as presenting in the setting, are somehow wrong.

If you don't come to terms with that, then you're going to be very frustrated here and anywhere else dragons aren't presented in a manner compatible with your preconceptions.

--flatline

[Nekira Sudacne]

A single mage wipe out a squad of dead boy grunts? You'd need to be a decent level, but trivial.

That's somewhat hard considering Dead boy armor gives them atleast 80 MD and the average magic attack does, around 10 MD per target. The average Dead boy attack does around 4 MD, but since the Mage only has a set limit of P.P. and the dead boys are more numerous they'd DESTROY the Mage before he could take ONE out. This mage is underpowered. He should be able to, at the very least, destroy four entire squads of Dead Boys before he runs out of P.P., in which case he'd be riddled with bullet holes as he has nothing to protect himself with should he encounter a fifth squad. OF course, Pallidium doesn't want Coalition players to complain, so instead of saying "that's rifts for ya" they give everyone TONS of MD and tell magic users "to use their environment", which is a byword of pull mary-sue plot holes out of hat(with your GM's permission of course) to win.

Using the enviroment is being mary-sue? You seem to have an odd definition of the word. You also seem to be overlooking there's nothing stoping mages from using technological or magic weapons just like everyone else. not that it much matters. Invisibility superior so they can't see you, wingless flight so you can over them, start raining cheep magic nets until everyone is trapped, then finish off your helpless dead boys at leasiure with whatever you have avilable.

Depends on where you teleport to. teleport behind cover, or behind allies, or behind a door. use terrain to your advantage.

Yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that you LOSE A FREAKING TURN. Sure, if you add in other factors then it can be useful but that's just it. OTHER FACTORS. If you need other factors to make something viable, then it is NOT viable unless you can be sure 100% of the time you will have those other factors, and even then that's more of a solution to the effect, and not the cause.

Or realize different tools are ment to be used in different situations and just because something dosn't apply in 100% of situations dosn't mean it's broken.

Really? by real-world science they are hilariously underpowered. Not to mention absurdly designed. There is no reason whatsoever to make mecha humanoid. it adds weaknesses and gives no advantages over a modern tank design.

That's not my meaning. In the rifts game mechanics most giant robots have MD in the hundreds. This is illogical, as their is no way a robot could have equal MD if it's just a pure construct of man-made metal arranged in certain patterns, along with certain other structures. Whether or not giant robots could exist is debatable, but my point still stands. They should only have a couple dozen of MD, on average instead of the over hyped amount they currently possess.

A couple dozen MDC is...24. so giant robots should have less MDC than the plastic man armor which is the weakest body armor in the core book?

OR maybe they are afraid of dragons as a whole for what they can do, and not afraid of a one on one confrontation.

No, that is wrong. The atlantis world book says they're afraid of ancient dragons. Not because of how many their are, but becuase of personal. And, by that logic, they'd be afraid of ANY large gathering of M.D.C creatures.

actually it says they're afraid of ancient dragons and says nothing as to why. You are simply interpreting this as best fits your notions, just as the rest of us are. we just disagree on what those notions are.

It more highlights the fact your severely underestimating magic. I'm not trying to talk down to you, I really think if you stop thinking in terms of a whiteroom "You have 20 deadboys and 1 ley line walker in a grey empty void, GO" and start thinking of how to use magic in real-world situations you can see how frighteningly powerful a decent ley line walker with a good library of spells can be. YOU have magic. YOU control the battlefeild. I'm not talking about "houserules", i'm talking about playing the game as it's written.

If we just look at the pure raw statistics Magic is UP. It does less damage on average, it takes more time to cast, and most spells require MASSIVE amounts of P.P. to be used, meaning the mage only has sporadic uses of inferior magic which is just nonsense. Sure you can say that if you add in other factors , but that's just it. Without these "other factors", which very to GM to GM, then magic is UP. The same thing can be said for technology or any weapon that does equal, if not more, damage than magic spells for half the time.

You seem to have a mindset wherein if it won't work in a grey empty void it won't work at all. this honestly baffles me. Sure exactly what you use varies not only from GM to GM but situation to situation, but i've never, EVER had a GM wherein some stratagies didn't work, and some have always worked.

Okay, stop and think for a minute. You admited you have no "proof" of these claims. So I am to accept the word of someone I never met in my life that everything I know about ancient mythology is wrong.

Well if you want you can look up my claims and see that its true. The information is readily available, but because you don't know what to look for you've never seen it. And how do you know everything you've been lead to believe isn't wrong? I mean I could shatter your entire perception of reality with a few links to a couple of more insightful blogs, but then again that'd require you to have an "open mind"(i.e. realize you are wrong) and I don't get that vibe from you.

Well that's it, everything I know could well be wrong. That dosn't change the fact that I still expect other people to be prepared to show why their version is the right one. Just because I disagree with you dosn't mean my mind isn't open, it simply means I expect those making claims to be able to explain why they hold them. You got links, toss 'em here or PM me.

[Jefffar]

SonofSaturn,

The myths that inspired the dragons of Rifts also included myths where a lone mortal, sometimes with no special weapons, special powers or special training, slew a dragon.

You may want to keep that n mind when you are looking at what a Dragon is supposed to be in this game.

EDIT: Also, split this off topic section from the original thread.

[cornholioprime]

The Splurgoth atlantis book says that the Splurgoth are rivals of the dragons and that they fear them also. Why would they fear vastly inferior creatures?

Because the Dragons were instrumental in bringing down the very Old Ones themselves......


....and Alien Intelligences throughout the Megaverse are both thankful (Old Ones are so far up the ladder that even other Alien Intelligences were pawns, playthings, and food to them, and the Splugorth were no exception), and fearful ("if they could bring down Old Ones, then let's not ourselves cross them if we don't have to").

[cornholioprime]

the amount of M.D.C that they DO have is pathetically small and does not represent the power that the lore says they have.

You seem to have SERIOUS misunderstanding of what the purpose of this Game is, both in general and specifically where Dragons are concerned.

The purpose of having Dragons portrayed in this setting is NOT to make Dragons as a species measure up to SonofSaturn's idea of what they should be in terms of Awesome, or Cornholioprime's idea of what they should be in terms of Awesome, or Nekira's idea, or anybody else's.
Nor was it EVER the intention of the Author(s) that either Palladium Dragons, or the Lovecraftian-like Alien Intelligences of the various Palladium setting, or Palladium Gods, or anything else in those Books, exactly mimic the real-world fictional characters they are so obviously molded after.

The purpose of having Dragons with the stats that they have, is to allow them to be FOUGHT AGAINST, and possibly DEFEATED, by characters of low to moderate levels of power in satisfying game-play.

Nothing more.

By the Gods, you'd better not pick up and read Pantheons of the Megaverse any time soon, or else you're going to be REALLY disappointed at what they do in that Book to some of the most powerful deities ever to spring from the mind of man!

[Nekira Sudacne]

Using the enviroment is being mary-sue? You seem to have an odd definition of the word. You also seem to be overlooking there's nothing stoping mages from using technological or magic weapons just like everyone else. not that it much matters. Invisibility superior so they can't see you, wingless flight so you can over them, start raining cheep magic nets until everyone is trapped, then finish off your helpless dead boys at leasiure with whatever you have available.

"using the environment" isn't a viable substitute to having sub-par abilities. The only way I could think "using the environment" could ever be used in the manner you describe is if I put the entire spotlight on a single character and allowed them to do something that could be best described as "mary-sue". Maybe if you explained more what "using the environment" truely means in game terms(i.e. how it actually plays out) then I might change that opinion. The magic book clearly states that mages prefer to use their magic, that and the fact that they don't instantly have magic weapons popping into their hands means that suggesting they use "alternative" weapons doesn't refute anything. You still don't prove magic is on par with other means of damaging opponents. Saying using a certain combination of magic spells doesn't mean that it's not UP, what if they don't have those spells in question? And the statistics are still inferior to other technological source when logically they should be higher. Not only that, but all those spells require a ton of P.P, except for the magic nets, but if the mage has nothing but magic he'd run out before he killed half the squad, or the magic nets spell would end their duration. And not only that, but the dead boys could have avoided it, so your entire scenario doesn't hold up in real game play except under certain conditions. As I said before, magic is inferior in nearly every situation to other weapon forms, which it should be SUPERIOR. Mages should be able to vaporize squads of Dead Boys considering that using raw energy as a powersource would easily allow someone to produce the power necessary to complete such a feat.

You want an entire combat senario set up and played out? I can arrange that, but will take some time. Also, if you just look at the OCC's equipment list, you'll note every magic OCC really does start with weapons, and some explicitly do start with magic weapons. So saying that a mage can incapacitate someone and then fishing them off with regular weapons is clearly a tactic they are ment to employ as virtually every magic OCC starts with equipment to do it with. yes, mages PERFER magic, and use it where can. Nowhere does it say they neurotically avoid using technology or mundane gear in all situations.

Or realize different tools are ment to be used in different situations and just because something dosn't apply in 100% of situations dosn't mean it's broken.

You're not refuting anything. The fact is that you lose a turn when teleporting is supposed to be instantaneous, making teleportation in current game mechanics underpowered, or not represented in a way it should be. Constantly ignoring the fact it is UP doesn't mean it's not. No matter what you say you can't refute that point. Losing an attack in rifts means you lose the chance to do valuable damage that, if you and your opponent are at equal footing, would normally be necessary to prevail, making it almost smarter to just take the hit instead of dodging.

I never tried refuting that teleport dodge took an action, I simply made the claim it's a worthwhile power to have that's sometimes useful.

A couple dozen MDC is...24. so giant robots should have less MDC than the plastic man armor which is the weakest body armor in the core book?

Please stop with that. You know that if I was going to suggest Power armor should have low amounts of MD, then I would want people in PLASTIC ARMOR to have no MD. That would also mean I would want all hand-held weapons to do no MD, and to start doing SD, and for supernatural creatures to have little to no MD unless they were EXTREMELY powerful(i.e. giants creatures). Anyone could have logically deduced that. If you're going to play dumb then don't even bother replying.

Calm down a bit, I use humor to keep arguments light in tone, not to belittle you. Of course I knew what you meant. Your hardly the first person who adovcated severely nerfing MDC/limiting MDC/doing away with it altogeather. personally I like the mechanic, but considering various rules have been floating around for nerfing MDC sinse the origional conversion book one (not to mention countless houserules that have been posted on these forums over the years), your not alone in that.

OR maybe they are afraid of dragons as a whole for what they can do, and not afraid of a one on one confrontation.

No. THis is an excerpt form the atlantis world book. "The truly ancient dragons are the ones that even the Splurgoth fear to some degree. A small number of ancient dragons are friendly with the Splurgoth and visit Atlantis regularly. A dozen even reside on teh continent and one, Styphathal, rules Dragcona!" - Pg. 34 Atlantis world book

I added the page number so you can see it for yourself and you know which page to flip too. It doesn't say "the Splurgoth fear the dragon race because they're numerous", no they say that they fear THE ANCIENT DRAGONS AS THE INDIVIDUALS THAT THEY ARE. The book even says that their are only a dozen on the continent, which means they're not afraid of the numbers the dragons can bring to the fore. The dragons, on their part, DO NOT fear the Splurgoth, which is strange considering that modern game mechanics means the Splurgoth could slaughter any dragon they choose. Obviously if the dragons don't fear the Splurgoth it means that they, being the hyper-intellects they are, have deduced that the Splurgoth COULD NOT kill them except for very specific situations, situations which the Dragons would be sure they could avoid. Obviously the game mechanics don't represent this, and instead represent some over-wanked fantasy for someone who likes the Splurgoth a little bit too much. The game rules should be revised to be better in line with the rifts universe.

"Fear to some degree" dosn't sound like much. I fear a big attack dog like a doberman or pit bull to some degree, that dosn't mean that an armed and prepared human is ever going to lose to a dog in a fight. Ancient dragons are powerful enough to hurt them, sure, and for that they must be respected, which they do. You are taking a very vauge line and putting a whole lot of weight on it.

actually it says they're afraid of ancient dragons and says nothing as to why. You are simply interpreting this as best fits your notions, just as the rest of us are. we just disagree on what those notions are.

That doesn't make sense. Why should they be afraid of them for any other reason, when the Splurgoth are evil alien intelligence? All your other "Theories" can be discarded when you use a bit of logic. You're simply trying to ignore the fact you can't refute any of these points. The cold hard logic is that Splurgoth are AFRAID of dragons, and this isn't because they "disrupt trade" or "because they're numerous", but because they feel that these single individuals can, if they so choose, kill the Splurgoth. The game mechanics contradtict this, and thus they should be revised to make it more compatible with the lore.

Are you suggesting that Kevin S. was somehow ignornant of the fact he was making splurgorth 10x more powerful than the average dragon when he wrote that line about them fearing dragons "to some degree". if dragons were powerful enough to crush a splurgorth in one on one, the correct line would be "Terrified of dragons". but no, they "fear to some degree". I fear a big dog "to some degree" because they can hurt me. Give me any decent weapon and i'm confident I could take one in a fight. Thus, while ancient dragons do have the power to hurt a splurgorth, the wording indicates the splurgorth is likely to win 1 on 1 alibet be hurting for the experiance.

You seem to have a mindset wherein if it won't work in a grey empty void it won't work at all. this honestly baffles me. Sure exactly what you use varies not only from GM to GM but situation to situation, but i've never, EVER had a GM wherein some stratagies didn't work, and some have always worked.

You didn't refute anything. Magic is stastistically underpowered. Nothing changes this. You're not offering anything to the contrary, but "OH BUT IF YO USE THE ENVIRONMENT", which isn't a viable argument since you might not always have the "environment", which utterly depends on the GM in question, nor is having to have an outside factor a viable alternative to having a weaker system. Whether YOU did or did not have GM's that allowed such things is irrelevant .

What do you mean "Statistically underpowered" Are you serously just talking about damage-dealing spells? Sure, attack spells tend to do less damage than easially avalible weapons, I never said otherwise. when we say that magic is very powerful, we're talking about all the OTHER stuff magic does that tech dosn't do or dosn't do very well. I mean come on, when you were looking through the spell list, and noticed attack magic was weaker than weapons, did the fact that less than a third of all spells have anything to do with damage indicate that maybe, just maybe, they were never supposed to be better than tech in the damage department, and the other stuff is to make up for it? are you really dismissing over 60% of all spells as "GM reliant and therefore utterly useless"?

Well that's it, everything I know could well be wrong. That dosn't change the fact that I still expect other people to be prepared to show why their version is the right one. Just because I disagree with you dosn't mean my mind isn't open, it simply means I expect those making claims to be able to explain why they hold them. You got links, toss 'em here or PM me.

Well I will definitely PM on the sources of my knowledge. I thank you for having an open mind and I will anxiousness to try and further elaborate on my logic with more suitable proof. However, if you're looking for a article by harvard you'll be disappointed . Almost all this information is compiled from independent researchers, because the "government" would never endorse someone supporting logical arguments.

I look forward to your PM.

[Prysus]

OR maybe they are afraid of dragons as a whole for what they can do, and not afraid of a one on one confrontation.

No. THis is an excerpt form the atlantis world book. "The truly ancient dragons are the ones that even the Splurgoth fear to some degree. A small number of ancient dragons are friendly with the Splurgoth and visit Atlantis regularly. A dozen even reside on teh continent and one, Styphathal, rules Dragcona!" - Pg. 34 Atlantis world book

I added the page number so you can see it for yourself and you know which page to flip too. It doesn't say "the Splurgoth fear the dragon race because they're numerous", no they say that they fear THE ANCIENT DRAGONS AS THE INDIVIDUALS THAT THEY ARE. The book even says that their are only a dozen on the continent, which means they're not afraid of the numbers the dragons can bring to the fore. The dragons, on their part, DO NOT fear the Splurgoth, which is strange considering that modern game mechanics means the Splurgoth could slaughter any dragon they choose. Obviously if the dragons don't fear the Splurgoth it means that they, being the hyper-intellects they are, have deduced that the Splurgoth COULD NOT kill them except for very specific situations, situations which the Dragons would be sure they could avoid. Obviously the game mechanics don't represent this, and instead represent some over-wanked fantasy for someone who likes the Splurgoth a little bit too much. The game rules should be revised to be better in line with the rifts universe.

"Fear to some degree" dosn't sound like much. I fear a big attack dog like a doberman or pit bull to some degree, that dosn't mean that an armed and prepared human is ever going to lose to a dog in a fight. Ancient dragons are powerful enough to hurt them, sure, and for that they must be respected, which they do. You are taking a very vauge line and putting a whole lot of weight on it.

Greetings and Salutations. While I think this conversation has gone towards the silly route and I almost rather not get involved, since a page number was mentioned I'd like to include a few other quotes of note (all from Rifts World Book 2: Atlantis).

For reasons not clear to most dragons, the Splugorth and their minions have a strange reverence towards dragons, particularly ancient dragons!

Now this mentions "revernece" only (at this point), but let's look at what it says. The reason are unknown and a mystery. It also says this reverence is to dragons as a whole, "particuarly" (as in, NOT EXCLUSIVE TO) ancient dragons. This whole section is rather relevent I'd say, but let's read a bit further.

Edit:: P.S. If dragons were more powerful, they wouldn't say the reason i "not clear" as the reason would be evident for all to see.

Both may have fought each other ... [snip] ... and which earned them the Splugorth's eternal respect, and to some degree, fear.

The "Both" mentioned are the Splugorth race (as a whole) and the dragon race (as a whole). So, as many have said in this thread, this could very well be based on their power as a whole/collective. Go ahead, read the section as a whole and not just cherry picking. I'm just listing a few passages, but the whole section "Reverence for Dragons" talks about dragons as a whole.

Only the Splugorth ... [snip] ... are never frightened to such a degree that they suffer penalties.

This is listed in both the Elder and the Ancient dragon section. So while dragons are feared, the Splugorth are clearly not THAT afraid. After all, it says "never." Not even under absolute ideal conditions for the dragon, will the Splugorth suffer penalties from fear (which suggests, in the most literal translation, that Splugorth are immune to Dragon horror factor, even to someone like Styphanthal who has a HF 19 while the Splugorth only have a HF 17).

Also note it says "most dragons" don't know why. However, by reading that line, it may indicate that SOME dragons do know why. Dragons hatch with knowledge already implanted. They go through a magical transformation, gaining massively more MDC and other stats, when they become an adult. Maybe they gain knowledge when beocming Ancient that we aren't aware of (after all, we're just told that most don't know why). Admittedly this last one has the least support.

Anyways, just wanted to point out a few facts. I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[flatline]

You should also understand that the "omni-potent", "all-powerful" god(which was actually a large grouping of gods, the elohim or the children of EL) described in the old testament was, for all intents and purposes, a dragon.

How do you figure?

--flatline

[cornholioprime]

ecause the Dragons were instrumental in bringing down the very Old Ones themselves......

And how could they do that with the PALTRY amount of MD that they have in current game mechanics? You're not giving any reasons why they SHOULDN'T be buffed to be on the same level, if not GREATER THAN, the amount of MD that Splurgoth have, or everything ELSE needs to have their MD DRASTICALLY reduced to be more logical.

Who says that brute force is the one and only determining factor in the power level of a given species, besides yourself? Especially when the mighty Alien Intelligences themselves are rather regularly driven away and sometimes even destroyed by mere mortals?

The greatest of the Old Ones was himself once taken down without a single shot being fired.

And by the way, the Dragons had a hand in that, too, if the Tristine Chronicles are to be believed.


Dragons as a whole do just fine a A Power To Be Reckoned With In The Megaverse despite not being on the power level that YOU think they should be on.

[The Beast]

You should also understand that the "omni-potent", "all-powerful" god(which was actually a large grouping of gods, the elohim or the children of EL) described in the old testament was, for all intents and purposes, a dragon.

How do you figure?

--flatline

I'll send a PM.

Post it here please.

[Jefffar]

The Seraph, the angels the bible, were NEVER killed or harmed by mortals. THey were actually the ones who were bring the "plagues" onto egypt. You should also understand that the "omni-potent", "all-powerful" god(which was actually a large grouping of gods, the elohim or the children of EL) described in the old testament was, for all intents and purposes, a dragon.

Really if you look at the glass mosaic of the story you're referencing too, saint George and the dragon, the "dragon" in question is nothing like the seraph described in the bible. If anything it looks like a wyvern, which could be the cause for such momentus confusion.

There is more than one mythology about dragons and more than one source of heroes who slew them. Remember that myth is still being created and produced. So Tolkien, Disney and Hollywood have created the basis for the dragons of rifts as much as the tales of the saints, medieval legends and myths of long dead civilizations. Not all of these have dragons as gods or god-like beings. Not all of them raise dragons above the level of beasts.

Palladium Fantasy and Rifts were built upon a mythology that focuses on the hero. That mythology includes the hero overcoming great and fearsome challenges. Perhaps no challenge resonates more as the slaying of a dragon. So in Palladium Games, yes, dragons are statted out in such a way that powerful heroes can kill them.

Another mythology embraced by the creators of rifts is the idea is primal beings of an utterly alien nature. In this mythology these primal beings are so ancient and powerful as to be essentially unkillible and irresistible. Occasionally, the least of these beings will trouble with lesser beings. These least cosmic beings are things like Gods, Alien Intellegences and the Splugorth. This is why their stats are so high compared to mortals and thing that a mortal may slay such as dragons.

Finally, there is one other element to the mythology on which the Megaverse is based that you should consider. The War with the Old Ones. This war is not heavily explored in Rifts, so I suggest you look into the Palladium Fantasy books for details, but as a summary the Old Ones were the greatest of all the cosmic entities. So powerful that they enslaved alll others to their whim, including the entire race of dragonkind. The Old Ones were also as cruel as they were powerful and eventually the slave races, the dragons in particular, rose up against them and overthrew them.

It was during this conflict that the first of the Dragon-Gods appeared. The dragon-gods are to the gods what dragons are to mortals. They are beings of incredible power and the sort of creature you are discussing when you talk about dragons SonofSaturn. This is a key point. There are dragons like you describe in the Megaverse. But the ones in the Rifts books are not they. They are lesser beings who are somehow connected to these Dragon-Gods, perhaps as a larval stage.

It is the wrath of this army of former slave dragons and their dragon-god leaders that cause the Splugorth so much fear in regards to dragon kind. The Splugorth know what happened to the Old Ones. They perhaps even were servants of the Old Ones who managed to escape the punishment of their masters. They know what fate awaits them if dragon kind or the dragon-gods decide to come for them.

So as you see, there are multiple Mythologies at work in creating Rifts. Focussing on any one element does not provide a clear picture. Also, I would recommend against mixing personal spiritual beliefs with Rifts itself. It is meant to be it's own story world with a hypothetical background and cosmology rather than a reflection of any specific spirituality.

[Ravenwing]

I've only skimmed over this thread, but the things Sonofsaturn describes sounds like a really bad, bad game.

Also man, it's generally safest not to try and mix 'homebrew' thesis's about God in these threads, PB's stayed away from religion for fear of offending people for years. I think it would be wise to do so as well.

[Ravenwing]

I've only skimmed over this thread, but the things Sonofsaturn describes sounds like a really bad, bad game.

That is your opinion. It's also a terrible argument in your favor considering you yourself stated that you're you only "skimmed" the thread, and by skim I suppose you only "read" the first couple of posts, means you're making an assumption off of insuffficent data. I mean I don't know how it could sound like a "game", unless you're talking about the revisions of the current rift game mechanics that' I'm proposing. that wouldn't make sense either since everything is completely logical and is only done to make the game rules not contradict with the lore.

Also man, it's generally safest not to try and mix 'homebrew' thesis's about God in these threads, PB's stayed away from religion for fear of offending people for years. I think it would be wise to do so as well.

No they do not. How is that possible when "religion", or atleast ancient mythology, have very big influences in rifts lore? The only thing they don't talk about are any of the "major" religions such Christianity, Judaism, and that's because they don't want to have the pants sued off of them. Which is a logical decision given their state of troubles, although I still feel they shouldn't blatantly ignore it and atleast "skit around the edges".

By Skim I meant I stopped reading when the posts began to repeat themselves, and which essentially boiled down to.
Twinking out dragons so that they're the ultimate killing machines. And the opposed view of nope they're fine as is, you just don't understand them as written in rifts.
Nerf MDC so that said dragons can destroy everything, including AI's, which shouldn't have any stats other then X. If an AI wants you dead, your dead end of story.
Regardless, you seem to not understand game balance, nor the point of a RPG or Rifts, so it sounds like a very, very bad game.

As to the second part, some people get offended when your claiming that the 'ultimate creator' and God of all is a dragon. PB has never stated out the All Mighty or even really touched on the church which exists in Rifts Earth, leaving it to each group to do so. Thats why I suggested putting that part of your thesis on the backburner, and not putting it in threads. I know some people on the boards here take their faith very seriously, and reading such things might offend them, which would lead to the ole ban hammer for atleast a bit.

[Ravenwing]

By Skim I meant I stopped reading when the posts began to repeat themselves, and which essentially boiled down to.
Twinking out dragons so that they're the ultimate killing machines. And the opposed view of nope they're fine as is, you just don't understand them as written in rifts.
Nerf MDC so that said dragons can destroy everything, including AI's, which shouldn't have any stats other then X. If an AI wants you dead, your dead end of story.
Regardless, you seem to not understand game balance, nor the point of a RPG or Rifts, so it sounds like a very, very bad game.

No, I want dragons to be represented as what they really are. If that's the ultimate killing machines then so be it. IF dragons need armies to fight them then the game should change to accommodate that, and that once this is done the game will then become better as the game lore is now fully represented in the manner it should be. Sure you can't be a guy in a power armor and go toe-to-toe with a dragon alone, and if you wanted to play as a mary-sue character maybe you shouldn't be playing this game in the first place, However, if you wanted to play as a person in this game world trying to survive then you might understand what Rifts is. Now i'm not saying that humans, or other people who aren't MD gods don't have a way to fight back, only that they don't fight back in the manner that you think they do. One guy is nothing to a MD god, but tens of thousands of men supported by many MANY tanks and vehicles would be a match for such a creature, and the fights that would be waged would be the epitome of epic. The "opposed view" is "you're wrong cause I said so". And, as I've stated before, the rifts lore supports my logic. They can't be the revered and feared creatures that they're specifically told that they are with the paltry stats that they currently have. And I'm not the one who says Dragons should kill Splurgoth, the Atlantis world book heavily implies that. I'm simply stating out the inconsistencies between the game rules and the game lore, and that the former should change to better represent the latter. You don't seem to understand that. Nor do you understand what "game balance" is. "Game balance" ISN'T everyone is equal to each other. Game balance is when the game mechanics REPRESENT THE LORE. The point of a RPG or Rifts is so you can imagine yourself being in this game. You can't imagine yourself being in this game when the game mechanics don't correlate with the game lore. My changes sound like a very, very GOOD game. You simply don't want to stop playing as a mary-sue character who beats up aliens and doesn't afraid of anything, and start playing as a realistic character who uses the resources of the human race as his sword and shield. And i'm not saying that it's not possible for power armor and the like to be MD, only they're not in the uber-hyped levels they're displayed as. A few MD, at best, should be the HIGHEST any single non-MD god creature should have.

As to the second part, some people get offended when your claiming that the 'ultimate creator' and God of all is a dragon.

It's not my fault that it's true. Making a thesis that "offends" someone isn't a banable offense, insulting them or their religion, sure, but them getting "offended" isn't taken into consideration Anything can offend anyone. You obviously don't know the rules very well, nor do you understand what exactly i'm explaining which is why I said you didn't read my posts very well or not at all.

Well, have fun with that, just don't be surprised when most people disagree with you. As to the second part, offending people by making a thesis about their real world religion, and posting it, IS a bannable offense.

[eliakon]

By Skim I meant I stopped reading when the posts began to repeat themselves, and which essentially boiled down to.
Twinking out dragons so that they're the ultimate killing machines. And the opposed view of nope they're fine as is, you just don't understand them as written in rifts.
Nerf MDC so that said dragons can destroy everything, including AI's, which shouldn't have any stats other then X. If an AI wants you dead, your dead end of story.
Regardless, you seem to not understand game balance, nor the point of a RPG or Rifts, so it sounds like a very, very bad game.

No, I want dragons to be represented as what they really are. If that's the ultimate killing machines then so be it. IF dragons need armies to fight them then the game should change to accommodate that, and that once this is done the game will then become better as the game lore is now fully represented in the manner it should be. Sure you can't be a guy in a power armor and go toe-to-toe with a dragon alone, and if you wanted to play as a mary-sue character maybe you shouldn't be playing this game in the first place, However, if you wanted to play as a person in this game world trying to survive then you might understand what Rifts is. Now i'm not saying that humans, or other people who aren't MD gods don't have a way to fight back, only that they don't fight back in the manner that you think they do. One guy is nothing to a MD god, but tens of thousands of men supported by many MANY tanks and vehicles would be a match for such a creature, and the fights that would be waged would be the epitome of epic. The "opposed view" is "you're wrong cause I said so". And, as I've stated before, the rifts lore supports my logic. They can't be the revered and feared creatures that they're specifically told that they are with the paltry stats that they currently have. And I'm not the one who says Dragons should kill Splurgoth, the Atlantis world book heavily implies that. I'm simply stating out the inconsistencies between the game rules and the game lore, and that the former should change to better represent the latter. You don't seem to understand that. Nor do you understand what "game balance" is. "Game balance" ISN'T everyone is equal to each other. Game balance is when the game mechanics REPRESENT THE LORE. The point of a RPG or Rifts is so you can imagine yourself being in this game. You can't imagine yourself being in this game when the game mechanics don't correlate with the game lore. My changes sound like a very, very GOOD game. You simply don't want to stop playing as a mary-sue character who beats up aliens and doesn't afraid of anything, and start playing as a realistic character who uses the resources of the human race as his sword and shield. And i'm not saying that it's not possible for power armor and the like to be MD, only they're not in the uber-hyped levels they're displayed as. A few MD, at best, should be the HIGHEST any single non-MD god creature should have.

As to the second part, some people get offended when your claiming that the 'ultimate creator' and God of all is a dragon.

It's not my fault that it's true. Making a thesis that "offends" someone isn't a banable offense, insulting them or their religion, sure, but them getting "offended" isn't taken into consideration Anything can offend anyone. You obviously don't know the rules very well, nor do you understand what exactly i'm explaining which is why I said you didn't read my posts very well or not at all.

Very well, you have now made a simple decleration of fact. SO back it up. What sources do you have that:
-The Christian God is a dragon
-That ALL myths in history have dragons as the ultimate supernatural being
-That all myths that when translated into english have dragon in them all talk about the same beings
-And the proof that dragons actually exist in the real world.

Untill you can do so what your saying is "I belive X, because *I* believe it it must be true. Therefore you must all be deluded, because I said so. That is not a way to have any sort of discussion. Now if you can site some sort of evidence we can discuss it. I will cite my source as The Golden Bough, by Sir James George Frasier which is a scholarly anaylisis of myths. This book never concludes that ANY god was ever a dragon, and infact concludes that many gods are just variations on faulty superstitions. I look forward to you providing some sort of evidence for you statements that you have achived catigorical truth on this topic.

[Damian Magecraft]

Well, have fun with that, just don't be surprised when most people disagree with you. As to the second part, offending people by making a thesis about their real world religion, and posting it, IS a bannable offense.

I am not surprised. People normally act irrationally when someone has an alternative view on what they have been told since children, it's only natural, not everyone is as intelligent or amazing as myself and thus able to see through deception and find the truth of this reality. By challenging their childhood beliefs they take it as a personal offense and then they act irrationally, this is why some debates(although surprisingly not this one) spiral into a "crap throwing contest" which I am so thankful that this forum has such strict rules to avoid a situation like that from developing. And please, how about you stop referencing "banning" as if it's some sort of charm that will make you magically win this debate. If you simply don't' know enough to refute my points, just concede.

before we can refute them you have to make some sort of point.

[Damian Magecraft]

before we can refute them you have to make some sort of point.

What a witty rebuttal . We both know full well I've made NUMEROUS logical points that have not been refuted. Trying to pretend that i'm not making a point simply because you don't like the points i'm making isn't an argument. If you don't wish to debate and just want to continue to live in blissful ignorance, why would you bother making a response?

Logical?
"It is this way because I say so" is not logic nor is it a point...
Try again.

[Prysus]

They said that the "Reason is not clear to most dragons" meaning most dragons don't know the EXACT details of why they're revered, but to assume they don't have the slightest guess is foolish. And obviously their are some dragons who DO know why they are revered, most likely the ancient dragons, which are the ones who are revered the most.

Greetings and Salutations. But you're overlooking the fact that if dragons were clearly more powerful ... there wouldn't be any doubt. As you've said ... dragons are intelligent. If you can crush something with a thought, it should be clear the exact reason it's scared of you. You want them to be more powerful, because it's the obvious answer. However, if it was the obvious answer, then it would be clear to everyone. Instead, you're complaining how written it doesn't make sense, as if ... oh, I don't know, the reason is not clear. Get it?

And lets look at the splurgoth and their minions. They are all semi-powerful creatures WHO ARE EVIL. They're not nice guys who like to pic flowers, but creatures bent on causing pain and torment. They won't revere something because it's beautiful or majestic. It's obvious that evil creatures such as the Splurgoth Minions wouldn't revere something if it wasn't powerful. They meet beautiful and majestic creatures every day, and they treat them the same way. There's no doubt the sole reason for the Splurgoth's admiration of dragons stems entirely from the power of the dragons. Saying it's for some other reason ignores these crucial points.

Not sure what this addresses. As far as I've noticed, no one argued that the Splugorth fear dragons because they're beautiful.

Hmm ... unless you're referring to the RWB2: Atlantis, the paragraph above the war (you know, the less likely reason), where it says that Splugorth appreciate them as perfect creations. That's a little different than what you're claiming, and I didn't even bring up that paragraph since the book says it's not that likely. Though maybe you meant something different. If you're just being random to try and make your point, it failed, but you can ignore this section. If you're addressing something specifically, you'll need to say what you're talking about because I know I never compared dragons to a flower.

Yeah, it states that dragons as a whole in the sense that every INDIVIDUAL dragon is revered because OF THAT INDIVIDUAL DRAGON. And when they are talking about the collective race, they are saying how each individual, within that race, feels about another individual, within that race. That's why they go so far to differentiated between the respect given for INDIVIDUALS of different ages, or power. The entire point of the section is to show how much they fear INDIVIDUAL dragons, not due to how many OTHER dragons will come to that one's defense, but to the power within that single individual.

Okay, now you've either failed your literacy check or just making stuff up. Let's go back to a direct quote to what I was discussing (since I cut out some parts in the hopes that you'd be able to read it on your own).

Both may have fought each other to a stand still, or more likely, the dragons won, or were on the verge of winning ...

I'll note a key word in there: "dragons." Not "a single dragon," not "an ancient dragon," not "an individual dragon," not even just "dragon" in the singular tense. It's "dragons" in the plural sense. See that "s" at the end? That means more than one. Not an individual like you wrongly claimed above. Read it in full context, and you'll see it's not an individual dragon. Since this battle was a racial battle from the context, numbers are important.

They still FEAR dragons, they just can CONTROL their fear. You can be afraid of dying, or being killed, but that doesn't mean you have to let it affect you. Them suffering penalties, or the lack thereof, doesn't mean that they don't think dragons could kill them should they choose too. And you're further proving my point by saying that Styphanthal has a HF of 19, which is higher than more Splurgoth. You're not afraid of something if you don't think it can kill you, and if you think Styphanthal can kill you more than a Splurgoth then you'd assume it's more powerful than said Splurgoth.

You know, I've noticed something in your posts, you seem to think all fear is logical. The odd thing is, fear can be quite illogical. People are afraid of the dark, but the dark itself can't kill you. I'm personally afraid of spiders, but I know most spiders can't kill me (I can also control that fear to kill them if need be, but it still really creeps me out!).

As for my showing the horror factor of Styphanthal, that only helps to show a good reason why someone might be afraid of them (they do have a high horror factor after all). Horror Factor and power level doesn't always connect. Let me give you a different scenario ...

A human, alone, without armor, and no weapons, stands in front of a squad of Dead Boys. The human casts "Fear" which gives him a Horror Factor of 16. Does this mean unless that human is physically capable of killing that squad the spell fails to work? Fear does not necessarily equal power. In the example I just gave, it's magical, but dragons are magical as part of their very nature too.

Yeah, they realize that the Splurgoth fear their power when they become ancient dragons. That's why the amount of reverence increases the older and more powerful the dragon becomes. It's all about the power of dragons, and if the Splurgoth fear dragons they fear their power. Which means they assume the dragons could kill them. Modern game mechanics don't state this, however, and by reading the stats you'd think it would be an ENTIRELY different situation. This is why all dragons stats should be buffed to hell and back to be comparable to the Splurgoths massive amount of MD, or the Splurgoth should have their MD brought down to atleast 1000.

No, I really wouldn't think an entirely different situation. The book states it's not clear why. I also understand fear doesn't have to be logical. We can also come up with reasons beyond basic power levels. Perhaps the Splugorth don't fear dragons for what they are, but what they can potentially become. Maybe as dragons become ancient they gain some potential insight into the weaknesses of Splugorth (how? We don't know, but how dragons do a lot of things is unclear), and that's why Splugorth fear them. Could be like the book said and that in some forgotten battle/war the dragon race kicked the Splugorth races' arse, and now Splugorth continue to fear them (ancient dragons the most since they're the most powerful, but since they still fear ALL dragons it makes logical sense they'd fear the more powerful ones of the race they fear as a whole). Then again, it might be something all together unknowkn to us. We are talking about alien supernatural beings that are beyond our comprehension, so their reasons may be all together foreign to us (I'm not so arrogant to think human beings can comprehend the actions of every being in the Megaverse, and understand them better than even very smart dragons).

Your quotes were welcome. However, You really ignored some CRUCIAL evidence that points to the splurgoth being afraid of the power of dragons. I suggest you be more observant and truly rack your brain when dealing with such things that require logic to deduce the intention of the author. Luckily I've explain the appropriate meaning behind the text, but you might not have me to explain things next time.

Well, if you're going to explain things, then you'll need to learn the difference between singular and plural nouns. As for Splugorth fearing dragons, it doesn't say because of their power. That's the most logical reason, but fear doesn't always relate to logic and, even if it did, we may not understand the thought process of alien beings. Also, by using deduction, we know that if it's unclear to dragons, then it's not something painfully obvious (ergo, not necessarily just using the Tim Allen solution of MORE POWER!).

Anyways, this conversation is overall boring. I agree with having an open mind, but having an open mind doesn't mean believing yours is the only solution. I don't mind hearing your thoughts, but right now they involve the logic: "The book fluff text must be right, and the mechanics must be wrong." For one, Palladium is known for having inaccurate fluff text. Second, I can see ways the fluff text and the mechanics can be right (more than one different way too).

Ooooo .... look, shiney. *Wanders off.* Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Damian Magecraft]

before we can refute them you have to make some sort of point.

What a witty rebuttal . We both know full well I've made NUMEROUS logical points that have not been refuted. Trying to pretend that i'm not making a point simply because you don't like the points i'm making isn't an argument. If you don't wish to debate and just want to continue to live in blissful ignorance, why would you bother making a response?

Logical?
"It is this way because I say so" is not logic nor is it a point...
Try again.

Failing to summarize my thesis correctly doesn't mean it's in the manner you describe it as. Nor does constantly pretending that i'm not making an argument. Once again I ask why do you bother posting if you're going to play these childish games. If you have no wish to admit where you are wrong then I suggest you don't waste the energy moving your fingers to produce such worthless contributions.

First intelligent thing you have said...
You are right... (enjoy that it is the last time you will ever hear it).
welcome to the exclusive club of my ignore list.
So exclusive it has one member.

[Jefffar]

Sonof Saturn, you indicated nothing else in my posts refuted what you said.

This is true.

However there wasn't an attempt to refute your posts. In fact, i am trying to help you find that which you seek in the Palladium Megaverse. Please take a few moments to go back and re-read what I said about the War with the Old Ones and the Dragon-Gods.

Finished? Good.

The dragons you describe, the dragons that fit your world view, they are the Dragon-Gods. These are not the common dragons of Rifts Earth. They are not the Ancient Dragons either. These are beings of far greater power and capability. Beings that make those that are generally called Gods give way. These are beings so potent that even uttering their names can be a source of powerful magic.

The dragons that we see on Rifts Earth are not these beings. They are lesser creatures that look and act in a similar fashion, but pale in comparison of their power. The connection between dragons and Dragon-Gods is a mystery in the game world, but if you must make the fictional creation of another fit your world view, there is definitely a place to start.

So there you have it. Dragons the way you envision them exist in the Palladium Megaverse, they are just exceedingly rare and are not known to have visited Rifts Earth.

[Subjugator]

I am not surprised. People normally act irrationally when someone has an alternative view on what they have been told since children, it's only natural, not everyone is as intelligent or amazing as myself and thus able to see through deception and find the truth of this reality.

You're the one with the irrational viewpoint here, SOS. You think that because *YOUR* belief system indicates that dragons are the core of all deific assignations means that we don't know what we're talking about when we disagree with you. Cherubim do not look like dragons. Here's a description of them, straight from Ezekiel:

Also out of the midst thereof [came] the likeness of four living creatures. And this [was] their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.


Also out of the midst thereof [came] the likeness of four living creatures. And this [was] their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.
And their feet [were] straight feet; and the sole of their feet [was] like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.
And [they had] the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.
Their wings [were] joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.
As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.
Thus [were] their faces: and their wings [were] stretched upward; two [wings] of every one [were] joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.

So yeah. No mention of scales. No mention of a long tail. No mention of them being reptilian. They're closer to a chimera (sans reptile head) than they are a dragon.

By challenging their childhood beliefs they take it as a personal offense and then they act irrationally

Ya got the wrong guy, pal. I have friends that are into Unitarianism, Paganism, Islam, Jainism, Old Norse religion, Ancient Egyptian religion, and two friends that are Satanists (which does not mean what many people think it means). I also have lots of friends that are Atheists. They believe what they believe. I believe what I believe. I also realize that given that we're speaking of a being or set of beings that are so amazingly beyond us that our brains cannot possibly comprehend all of what they are, that we're likely to get whole lists of things wrong by virtue of the fact that we really don't understand them.

this is why some debates(although surprisingly not this one) spiral into a "crap throwing contest" which I am so thankful that this forum has such strict rules to avoid a situation like that from developing. And please, how about you stop referencing "banning" as if it's some sort of charm that will make you magically win this debate. If you simply don't' know enough to refute my points, just concede.

All you've done is stated opinions. All others have done is state opinions. Since it is a comparison of opinion versus opinion, I daresay all sets of points have been supported and refuted equally...that is to say 'not at all' and 'completely.'

/Sub

[Subjugator]

But it is clear. They blatantly state that it is completely due to the power of the individual dragon that they are affording their respect and fear. They're feared because they're powerful, not the other way around. As I've stated before, why would evil creatures revere them for any reason OTHER than their power? And the progression of of their age further's their reverence, solely due to the increase of power.

Can you quote where they blatantly say this (book title and page number, please)?

I wasn't speaking of the Splurgoth but their minions, nor are you refuting the point at hand. They are evil creatures, and the only reason that evil creatures would revere something if it had something they admired. What do evil creatures who cause pain and suffering revere? Obviously it's power, as that's the only thing that could cause such reverence among them. IF they feared something due to the how many of it's race their are it would something is IF THEY WERE AFRAID OF DEATH, not for any other reason.

They could revere their lifespan, their embodiment of the power of magic, their catlike ability to torture and kill without hatred, or a lot of other things besides.

The Splurgoth are "Evil" creatures. Very evil.

Not all of them. Splynncryth is of Anarchist alignment, not evil.

They deal in slavery and they torture other creatures. What is a "perfect creaiton" to them? IT'S OBVIOUSLY BECAUSE THE DRAGONS ARE POWERFUL. THAT IS THEIR IDEA OF A PERFECT CREATION. Again you don't refute the obvious. The dragons are feared for their power. You can "say" they "might" mean something different, but logic dictates that the power of dragons is what causes the Splurgoth to fear and admire them. Everything in the source book dictates this.

OK - so you're adding to the text to reach your conclusion. I can hypothesize a few for you.

1. They believe it's a perfect creation because it has a ton of power and it breeds very quickly compared to a Splugorth.
2. They believe it's a perfect creation because it is self sustaining and doesn't need an army, money, or gadgetry to keep itself up.
3. They believe it's a perfect creation because they're beautiful.
4. They believe it's a perfect creation because they are able to shape shift into almost whatever they need to be.

ANd how do you know it wasn't a small amount of dragons in said war who garnered the fear?

We don't. What we know is that they are spoken of as a class and not as individuals. You're adding to the text to reach a conclusion; we are not. It says the Splugorth and the Dragons might've been in a war. It doesn't say 900 Splugorth and 3 dragons. It says Splugorth and dragons.

Who said it was because they were numerous? YOU are implying that.

We are inferring it. It is stated directly by the text that there's a good chance that the fear is because of a war between dragons and the Splugorth. It is positively clear it was more than one dragon, and it is implied that it was a species-wide battle.

And nothing in the book says that it was a large amount of dragons. For all we know it could have been 4 dragons against 100 splurgoth and the dragons could have won.

Unlikely, and you're reaching to get to this conclusion.

You keep thinking that because it doesn't specify numbers that they automatically mean it was a large number of them. And how can you refute the fact that the World Book CLEARLY implies that the fear and revereance of the dragon increases as it's power increases?

It's not being ignored. It is addressed.

Think of it as being comparable to the book, "Dune." The emperor was individually easily able to take out one or two great houses without significant concern. He had to be very careful not to make it look like he was gunning for the great houses though, or they'd all band together and squish him. When Leto got too powerful though, he teamed with Harkonnen and smashed him, because even though he was not (yet) able to beat the emperor, he was getting a little too big for his britches.

Thus they are afraid OF THAT INDIVIDUAL DRAGONS POWER, something that the book makes VERY CLEAR and something that you are BLATANLY IGNORING.

Maybe they're afraid of that dragon learning enough to be a dragon god and being remembered as one of the ones that pissed him off before he became a god, and as they get older, the more likely they are to achieve transcendence.

Yeah, but the thing is SPLURGOTH ARE NOT PEOPLE.

They aren't human beings, but it's evident they have emotion.

By saying "I am illogical, so that means the splurgoth are illogical" is a fallacy.

He's saying that beings with emotion can be illogical, therefore the Splugorth can be illogical. That is not a fallacy.

By that logic, why don't the splurgoth fear EVERYTHING?

For the same reason we don't fear everything. I am also afraid of spiders, but I have no issue with dogs, cats, or (pet) snakes.

Obviously they do not. THey only fear dragons.

To my knowledge, the only thing that is named as a fear of theirs is dragons. That doesn't mean it's all they fear.

They are evil creatures so why would they fear something if they didn't think they could just vaporize, or if it didn't pose a threat?

1. They aren't necessarily evil, though they engage in evil acts.
2. They can vaporize one of them. If the whole universe of dragons gets the idea that they're a target of this (or all) Splugorth, they'll react. No one Splugorth can kill all of the dragons.

Your logic doesn't hold weight. Obvioulsyt heya re afraid of dragons BECAUSE THEY FEAR THEY CAN BE KILLED BY THEM AND THE CURRENT GAME RULES DO NOT REPRESENT THIS.

Your logic doesn't hold weight, as has been shown to be true.

Nothing you have said or will say has refuted this.

If one operates based upon flawed assumptions, ignores the words of the people that oppose their viewpoint, and adds to the canonical text to reach conclusions, nothing will ever defeat the position held.

NO, but the fear spell makes them THINK that the person is capable of doing so. That's what HF is supposed to be. Fear doesn't eqwual power, but IT IS THE IMPLICATION OF POWER. Thus, by having a higher HF he has a higher IMPLICATION OF POWER. And if the splurgoth and their minions fear dragons IT IS BECAUSE THIS IMPLICATION OF POWER HAS BEEN PROVEN TRUE.

Power is not just expressed in MDC, PPE, or stats. It is also expressed by such things as, "Hey, he knows about 500 other dragons that would come to his aid if he was in trouble, and well he can teleport away if he feels threatened and then come back with his 500 friends and trash us."

Again, you're just saying "Oh well I don't think they fear them for this reason" even though everything would logically point that they DO fear them for that reason.

No, it would not. Several reasons have been pointed out, including some that are factually and canonically true.

The Splurgoth fear dragon's power. That's it. You can't refute that. You're making alot of "maybe's and what if's".

You are adding a lot to the text.

None of it makes any sense.

I'd agree that none of your positions make any sense.

Your "theory" on the ancient dragons and learning a "weaknss" of the dragons doesn't add up because ALL of the Splurgoth's minion's fear them

What Splugorth minion stands a decent chance of standing against an adult or ancient dragon? Metzla don't...the teleportation ability combined with the amazing magical ability pretty well rule that out.

Instead of making up theories that have no backing in the lore, we can just say that they're afraid of the Dragon's power.

Yes...as a group.

Everything in the Atlantis source book heavily implies this to the point where it's impossible to ignore.

Yes...it implies what we are saying is correct.

That's why the minions, even the metzla, fear dragons. You're trying to say that due to the Splurgoth being AI means that their fear the dragons for no reason. That still doesn't explain why they revere them, or why all their minions do, or why the metzla do. And if that were the case why can we attribute things such as cunning and mercantile skill onto them if their minds are an antithesis to understand? Why do their actions have clear logic behind them? Because they think logically and if they fear the dragons IT'S FOR A LOGICAL REASON AND THIS REASON IS BECAUSE THEY FEAR THEIR POWER. Again you cannot refute this because you can't bring up a single argument that could possible contradict this.

I have brought up several. The biggest of which is that to reach your conclusion you must add to the text. To reach ours you do not.

Of course it didn't say that. IT doesn't have to say that.

It specifically says the opposite...that it is NOT evident. If it's not evident, then it's clearly something that isn't going to be readily identified. Since it is not readily identified, it is not to be seen in stats or the like.

The authors know that intelligent people will see THAT THEY HEAVILY IMPLY IT IN EVERY SINGLE PAGE

NO THEY DO NOT. THEY SAY THE OPPOSITE, SAYING THAT NOT EVEN THE DRAGONS KNOW WHY.

and that it's impossible for intelligent people to not understand what they are implying.

It is very possible for intelligent people to understand what is being said. The intelligent people all agree on what is being said. You should join us, so everyone would agree with what is being said.

Yo're entire argument is "NO THEY DON'T FEAR THEIR POWER CUZ FEAR DOESN'T HAVE TO BE LOGICAL SEE I'M NOT LOGICAL AND I FEAR STUFF!"

No. It's that:

1. The text says it is not clear why the Splugorth fear the dragons. If it is unclear, that means it won't be something that can be easily found in a list of numbers and stats.
2. The text says that one hypothesis is that there was a war between dragons and the Splugorth, and that the Splugorth had either lost or were going to lose. The implication here is that it was at least the majority of dragons and Splugorth in the war. It doesn't say "a few dragons and lots of Splugorth"; it says "they were in a war" or something substantively similar to it.
3. It is only by making assumptions that require adding to the text in the books that one can rationally reach your conclusion. One can rationally reach our conclusion without adding to the text.
4. Context matters, and our position is supported by the contextual as well as literal sense of the words. Yours is not.

and that isn't an argument at all. The entire point is that you can't say that they don't fear them because you fear illogical things. For people who understand that the Splurgoth are intelligent and not prone to "fearing" without good reason it's obvious that they fear dragons because of their power.

Yes, but that doesn't mean it is individualized power. For whom do you think an ancient dragon god is more likely to intervene...an ancient dragon or a baby dragon?

That is also the reason why they revere them. As I've stated before you cannot refute this, no matter how many illogical posts you make. Trying to project your own tendency to make illogical statements onto the Splurgoth's reason for fearing dragons also don't refute any points.

They are not making illogical posts. You are. You are ignoring text, context, and logic.

You obviously don't have an open mind. If you did you'd realize you were wrong. You're continuing with the same logical fallacies and trying pass them off as the truth.

Actually, it is painfully obvious that what you are accusing others of is very specifically what you are doing.

/Sub

[Todd Yoho]

I love this thread and how it keeps dragon on. The OP's circuitous, serpentine arguments are sublime and he keeps it coming by digging in his claws and not taking wing even though the masses are running rings around his arguments.

[Ravenwing]

I love this thread and how it keeps dragon on. The OP's circuitous, serpentine arguments are sublime and he keeps it coming by digging in his claws and not taking wing even though the masses are running rings around his arguments.

I think that wins the award for most puns in a single post. Not sure though, I'd have to look.

[Mack]

Enough already.