Jet Packs; Fight and Practicioners of Magic (The Polite Way)

[Akashic Soldier]

Okay, I've gotten one person asking me about a comment I made previously about Mages requiring stable ground to cast spells and two others have sent me inquiries on it via facebook. So I thought I would ask if anyone would like me to post the page numbers and such for reference?

I'm offering to do this in the spirit of the community and not to spark controversy or screw anyone around or prove I was right. It is just a little part of the setting that not a lot of people seem to be aware of. Please remember, I gain nothing posting this... everyone knows I love magic. I'm not trying to screw spell casters out of the ability to fly around and shoot off spells. I'm just trying to explain magic as I understand it.

No hate please. If at least 2 people are genuinely interested just ask and I will take time out of my day tomorrow during my lunch break to delve over the books and provide word for word references and setting information. I am honestly very busy and offering my time doing this because people seem genuinely interested.

If someone else with more free time on their hand would like to post it before tomorrow, I would that appreciate that but if you can't find the stable ground rules or the write up for the leyline barges (I think its mentioned in there too), I will provide the information. Its cool.

Everyone's least favorite blue-eyed punk rocker,
~Liam

[Slight001]

Well I'm curious about this subject.

[One Hand Clapping]

I'm game.

[Akashic Soldier]

Okay Guys.

The post will be up within the next 24 hours.

*salutes*

[cornholioprime]

Okay, I've gotten one person asking me about a comment I made previously about Mages requiring stable ground to cast spells and two others have sent me inquiries on it via facebook. So I thought I would ask if anyone would like me to post the page numbers and such for reference?

I'm offering to do this in the spirit of the community and not to spark controversy or screw anyone around or prove I was right. It is just a little part of the setting that not a lot of people seem to be aware of. Please remember, I gain nothing posting this... everyone knows I love magic. I'm not trying to screw spell casters out of the ability to fly around and shoot off spells. I'm just trying to explain magic as I understand it.

No hate please. If at least 2 people are genuinely interested just ask and I will take time out of my day tomorrow during my lunch break to delve over the books and provide word for word references and setting information. I am honestly very busy and offering my time doing this because people seem genuinely interested.

If someone else with more free time on their hand would like to post it before tomorrow, I would that appreciate that but if you can't find the stable ground rules or the write up for the leyline barges (I think its mentioned in there too), I will provide the information. Its cool.

Everyone's least favorite blue-eyed punk rocker,
~Liam

Just an FYI:

One of the parts of the multi-year training of a Magic OCC, is that the character is trained how to deal with distractions and disruptions; even when there are potential threats to his life on the battlefield, he is conditioned to remain as cool as a cucumber as he tries to weave his magic.

I would therefore rule that, by comparison, it's just a walk in the park if a Mage is flying around with a jet pack -unless, of course, the device was in a situation where it was flying around in such a herky-jerky manner that it physically disrupted his movements, AND/OR the spell in question requires him to make some sort of 'dance moves' with his body in addition to speaking the words of the incantation.

And since these physical movements are never spelled out explicitly in the Books, it would be GM's call to either allow or disallow the use of a given spell or spells while flying.
("Sorry, Timmy, but for gameplay's sake I'm not going to have you zipping around out of range of the enemy's weapons as you safely cast line-of-sight spells with impunity, so when you and the crew get here next Saturday I'm going to rule that spells must take certain motions; I won't tell you this directly, of course.")

Please see Mysteries of Magic Book One, page 45.

[Akashic Soldier]

Please see Mysteries of Magic Book One, page 45.

I'll certainly check it out. MoM is one of my all time favorite Palladium Books (I know I was shocked too!).

I just recall that you specifically need "stable footing" and it being elaborated upon that was the reason that the TW Gliders were platforms you stand on and why there are barges. I'll make sure to present everything I can find. I agree with what you are saying in essence; I just know its a little more complicated than that. Besides, piloting a jetpack requires you to use your hands (as far as I know) so you do not spiral out of control and crash into a tree or passing Deathshead Transport and I suspect maintaining flight on a vehicle would require the character's full attention most of the time; especially considering if he is detracted he has to make a pilot check with a new penalty... which kind of applies that you have to be focused on piloting the jetpack.

That is neither here nor there though; my main issue is the "stable footing" issue and the fact that you don't have any if you are flying around through the air.

[cornholioprime]

Please see Mysteries of Magic Book One, page 45.

I'll certainly check it out. MoM is one of my all time favorite Palladium Books (I know I was shocked too!).

I just recall that you specifically need "stable footing" and it being elaborated upon that was the reason that the TW Gliders were platforms you stand on and why there are barges. I'll make sure to present everything I can find. I agree with what you are saying in essence; I just know its a little more complicated than that. Besides, piloting a jetpack requires you to use your hands (as far as I know) so you do not spiral out of control and crash into a tree or passing Deathshead Transport and I suspect maintaining flight on a vehicle would require the character's full attention most of the time; especially considering if he is detracted he has to make a pilot check with a new penalty... which kind of applies that you have to be focused on piloting the jetpack.

That is neither here nor there though; my main issue is the "stable footing" issue and the fact that you don't have any if you are flying around through the air.

Pretty good points.

Now we just have to see how the various jet packs work in order to make that determination (for some reason I'm drawing a mental blank right now as to where they can be found).

EDIT: Besides....can't you just allow a Jet pack to hover in place?

[V-Origin]

I wouldn't bother with any of these rulings designed to dumb down magic-users in my campaign. First off, the rules regarding distractions and magic users are written for mainly human magic users or the POV of a human since the writers are clearly human.

Humans are different from other beings especially Gods and Dragons. Gods and Dragons find flying around as natural as breathing air so they don't receive any penalties at all while casting magic.

Also, I would rule that even human magic users shouldn't require magic casting with stable footing. Why is that? Because magic users are trained to cast magic under all types of difficult stressful distractions. Flying in mid-air is the least of difficult stressful distractions which a magic user should have learnt to deal with.

Of course, all these rules apply to my campaign and I am not asking anyone to follow my rules if they are not playing in my campaign.

[Tor]

This 'stable footing' thing is silly. Dragons can't cast spells while flying?

How do people manage to cast spells underwater? Or on boats?

[dragonfett]

When you do find the passage, would you mind quoting it here? I don't have Mysteries of Magic (even though I would love to own it).

[Giant2005]

I wouldn't bother with any of these rulings designed to dumb down magic-users in my campaign. First off, the rules regarding distractions and magic users are written for mainly human magic users or the POV of a human since the writers are clearly human.

Humans are different from other beings especially Gods and Dragons. Gods and Dragons find flying around as natural as breathing air so they don't receive any penalties at all while casting magic.

Also, I would rule that even human magic users shouldn't require magic casting with stable footing. Why is that? Because magic users are trained to cast magic under all types of difficult stressful distractions. Flying in mid-air is the least of difficult stressful distractions which a magic user should have learnt to deal with.

Of course, all these rules apply to my campaign and I am not asking anyone to follow my rules if they are not playing in my campaign.

Surprisingly, this is a fairly good point.
MoM talks in great length about the efforts mages go through in their training to strengthen their concentration.
What of those OCCs/RCCs that have no training? The ones that cast their magic innately?

If they haven't trained to strengthen their concentration and don't suffer for it, then they must have that ability naturally. The question is to what extent does their natural ability apply?

[cornholioprime]

When you do find the passage, would you mind quoting it here? I don't have Mysteries of Magic (even though I would love to own it).

It's a whole long paragraph that goes into the mental training of Mages, that takes up about 1/3 to 1/2 of the entire page.

The passage doesn't specifically say that Mages are trained to cast spells from man-portable flying machines (this is PFRPG, after all), but it DOES say that they end so able to focus that they can concentrate right in the middle of a battlefield to cast their spells....while simultaneously being aware of their surroundings.

I believe that the section is called "Concentration in Chaos."

[Akashic Soldier]

Although this is somewhat unrelated, I would like to start with my favorite thing about Magic in Palladium...

Thus, while a Fire Ball is a Fire Ball, not all Fire Balls are equal nor look identical. Each is shaped and tuned, if ever so slightly (and in some cases, not so slightly), by the person creating it.

Next, I'd just like to also bring up this quote (see below). It is rather clear that spells require the ability to speak (which is covered later) and hand gestures. This is also a significant drawback for my spell slinging friends - take off a hand or a claw or a tentacle and you can make it impossible to cast spells! More importantly for this time, if the hands are occupied (say by operating a jet-pack) than it is generally safe to assume they cannot cast spells and operate the pack (or vehicle) at the same time. I'll explore this a little later in my post when I address Tor's concerns. Obviously, complex spells like Rituals and Summonings are going to be impossible because they genrally cannot even be cast on the spot as they require preparation.

Spell magic requires spoken incantations and hand gestures that serve as a focus to cast magic.

This is further expanded upon on page 189 where it reads:
To cast a spell requires verbalization - the speaking of the spell invocation. The mantra of the spell must be spoken aloud and with authority. Hand gestures are also usually part of the spell casting process that helps focus and direct the mystic energy.

Oh wow! I did not know this! I am glad I say down and reread this. Thank you guys! If nothing else your interest and my anal-retentive quest for balance and order in the chaotic world of magic has taught me something new!

Touch. Means the magic's effects can only be transmitted through physical contact; flesh to flesh or flesh or through gloves and fabric, but not through sealed, environmental M.D.C. body armor or armored vehicles (unless the magic is meant to effect the armor).

Which, finally brings us too... The weakness of spell casting. For purposes of stacking odds against this notion (so that folks know I am not being bias - I hate personal bias) we will be using a 1st level spell as our example as they are the easiest and most simple to cast. As listed the approximate time to cast a first level spell is equal to 3 seconds. (Rifts Ultimate Edition, pg. 189 - The Time It Takes To Cast a Spell).

That said, we should probably take into consideration:

The mid-and high-level spells count as two or three of the mage's melee attacks and will require the character to take a step back from the action to use his magic to the best strategic purpose. While this may remove him from the immediate action of combat, his spell may have a profound effect on the battle, that's the trade-off.

And...

Furthermore, magic has the disadvantage of requiring concentration and speaking, two things you can't do while under attack! So unless the spell being cast is a Level 1-5 invocation that can be popped off in three or four seconds, the action of parrying, dodging or striking back will break the spell invocation and prevent the mage from casting his spell (he'll need a "breather" of 7-10 seconds to cast a higher level spell). Likewise, getting popped in the mouth or stomach, or getting knocked down or blinded, or anything that breaks the spell caster's concentration and makes him stop in the middle of his verbalization of the spell prevents him from finishing it.

I know I am sounding like a broken record but all of this is going to be important.

This also means if the mage is being hammered by a full press attack (i.e., his attacker keeps striking at him at every opportunity), even if the sorcerer is successfully parrying each attack, he is focused on protecting and defending himself and cannot get a higher level spell off. The same is true if he is doing the physical attacking, or running or performing any physical action.

That is right, if the Mage is running (is it unbelievable to say that flying is the same thing in the case of our Draconian pals?) or performing any physical action. Which I believe would imply piloting a vehicle, be it an automobile or a jetpack (especially given the tremendous speeds of jet packs; but more on that later). However, lets play devils advocate and just assume that piloting the jetpack does not count as a physical action.

Instead, lets warm up and do some mental gymnastics and assume that the character has Telemechanics and use his psychic abilities to control the vehicle mentally. That would work right? Well, it would except that psionics also require concentration and so do spells and short of having two brains (not beyond the alien physiology of some D-Bees I am sure!) I would assume that someone can only 'concentrate' on one thing at a time. So, I'd have to read the conclusion that isn't a sound idea.

But wait! What if you are a Techno-Wizard and the skies are the limit? (No pun intended) than what? Well, what if you could build a magic auto-pilot? Sure, most man-sized jetpacks are too small to house an A.I. (R:SB1r) but with Techno-Wizardry almost anything is possible! Maybe you can imprison an intelligence within the jetpack and it can fly for you so you can focus on your spells? If we take this path -- maybe. Maybe we can make this work after all!

And my investigation has FALLEN FLAT on its face. I have read MOST of Federation of Magic (revised), The Book of Magic, the R:UE and I have found that... well I have found nothing specifically supporting me and I've been reading for the last two hours... but before you crucify me... I would just like to say that I am sure I have read something about it and that limit is specifically the reason Techno-Wizards made the Wing-board and Barges and other flying platforms I just cannot for the life of me find it. If anyone actually knows I'd appreciate you saving my butt. Since I cannot find it in the aforementioned sources I suspect it is on Siege on Tolkeen but my friend currently has all my Tolkeen books so I cannot get at them. The other place it might well be now that I think about it is in the R:GMG. I will check that out as soon as I get a free minute (I have work I need to do or I'd give this more time).

This 'stable footing' thing is silly. Dragons can't cast spells while flying?

That said, I hope in the very least I have addressed this for the moment. I promise I will return and continue my explanation and rationality for these things THE MINUTE I have the time.

How do people manage to cast spells underwater? Or on boats?

I know this is gone into in Underseas some; generally with the exception of some spells you can't. That said, you might know a spell that was invented by a tentacled race of ultrasonic underwater people and if you can speak an ultrasonic language then you could cast it underwater. That is addressed a little in Book of Magic (at the front in questions).

For now though, I'd like to close on something all spell-casters and spell-casting creatures should keep in mind:

That's just how magic works, and a player has to be smart about how he uses the magic to take full advantage of the strengths and avoid to the pitfall of the weaknesses. Focus on those strengths and wish for good luck and a helping hand when the mage gets into a jam.

EDIT: P.S.: You guys have my word that I will keep searching for this. I'm always the first person to admit he was wrong but I know I was sitting in the living room when I read it. I'm sure I didn't just imagine it... but if I did (which isn't like me)... but if I did, I'll admit it. However, if anyone else has seen it I'd love help in my search.

P.P.S.: Sorry Cornholio I have not reread PF:MoM yet ether but I'll get on that soon too!

[Dr. Doom III]

This also means if the mage is being hammered by a full press attack (i.e., his attacker keeps striking at him at every opportunity), even if the sorcerer is successfully parrying each attack, he is focused on protecting and defending himself and cannot get a higher level spell off. The same is true if he is doing the physical attacking, or running or performing any physical action.

Action as in an Attack/Action.
Anything that causes the mage to lose an attack or action is enough to interupt spell casting or make the mage unable to cast a spell.

[Akashic Soldier]

This also means if the mage is being hammered by a full press attack (i.e., his attacker keeps striking at him at every opportunity), even if the sorcerer is successfully parrying each attack, he is focused on protecting and defending himself and cannot get a higher level spell off. The same is true if he is doing the physical attacking, or running or performing any physical action.

Action as in an Attack/Action.
Anything that causes the mage to lose an attack or action is enough to interupt spell casting or make the mage unable to cast a spell.

If that was the case, why would it explicitly list attacking and running? Attacking (self explanatory), running (does not require an action but is explained as a movement action in the R:GMG) and physical action? Is this mentioned as a redundancy or is it used to classify anything else that might be considered a physical action? (Juggling, checking your e-mail, piloting a sophisticated piece of high-speed machinery?)

[Giant2005]

Interestingly enough, mages seem far more capable in PF than they are on Rifts.

As described in the section about Apprenticeship, a Wizard's most underrated ability is staying focused to complete a spell. A cacophony of screaming, shouting, singing, or trying to talk over him or to get his attention will not do it. Someone calling his name and shouting "look out" will not do it, unless that person/voice is of a trusted comrade, and even then it might not work. The roof and walls falling in all around him, and small pieces of debris pelting him will not do it, unless a hunk hits him in the head and does more than 8 points of damage, or he is
buried in huge pile of debris, or there is so much dust that it chokes him and he can't speak a complete sentence. Even dodging an incoming attack is not likely to break his concentration unless he actually has to leap or dive out of the way or is facing multiple attackers (two or more). A punch and even a stab from a weapon that does 8 or less points of damage will not break his concentration either. Wizards spend endless hours, starting with their apprenticeship and continuing for the rest of their lives, practicing methods and techniques to endure chaos, pain and distraction to complete their spells. However, suffering damage greater than 8 points (S.D.C. or Hit Points), getting the wind knocked out of him, falling, being choked, being gagged/prevented from speaking, being rendered unconscious (or killed!), being made dizzy or disoriented, all prevent the Wizard from casting spells. There are a number of magic and psionic attacks that can also prevent a spell from being completed or distract or confuse the Wizard to the point he can't weave spells.

Rifts Mages cannot defend themselves without breaking their concentration but PF Mages can. Is this an indication of the training Rifts Mages undergo being sub-standard?

[The Beast]

...

This also means if the mage is being hammered by a full press attack (i.e., his attacker keeps striking at him at every opportunity), even if the sorcerer is successfully parrying each attack, he is focused on protecting and defending himself and cannot get a higher level spell off. The same is true if he is doing the physical attacking, or running or performing any physical action.

Well I guess that means breathing's out...

When you do find the passage, would you mind quoting it here? I don't have Mysteries of Magic (even though I would love to own it).

It's a whole long paragraph that goes into the mental training of Mages, that takes up about 1/3 to 1/2 of the entire page.

The passage doesn't specifically say that Mages are trained to cast spells from man-portable flying machines (this is PFRPG, after all), but it DOES say that they end so able to focus that they can concentrate right in the middle of a battlefield to cast their spells....while simultaneously being aware of their surroundings.

I believe that the section is called "Concentration in Chaos."

MoM, page 54, the largest paragraph on the left side.

[Akashic Soldier]

Well I guess that means breathing's out...

*facepalms*

Rifts Mages cannot defend themselves without breaking their concentration but PF Mages can. Is this an indication of the training Rifts Mages undergo being sub-standard?

Palladium World does have a longer tradition of Magic than Rifts Earth and a wider range of spells and magical schools of philosophy, so I think it might well be that Palladium World Practitioners of Magic are indeed better mages.

[Tor]

Most mages can't cast spells underwater; or if they have been gagged. The vocal word is part of all standard spell incantations. This is in the MOM too (as well is other places).

That's besides the point, I'm talking about how you don't have stable footing if you're swimming around or on a boat which rocks back and forth. The special training (however much it takes) before mages can figure out that silent-casting is possible is only to compensate for the inability to speak, not the inability to stand motionless.

So long as mages are able to predict their motions (aka not getting knocked over by external forces) whether it be floating, rocking about, flying, etc. they should be able to do it.

Mages should also be able to cast spells while walking or maybe even at a light trot. I can understand some penalties for those who are running at top speed though, because we begin to lose our awareness and control over our place (and exert more energy, think less) the faster we move.

performing any physical action.

This is obviously an incredibly silly statement in RUE and we should opt to ignore it. Breathing is a physical action, as is talking, as is gesturing, so obviously mages can cast spells while making physical actions, considering that spell components themselves generally require them.

Mages should simply be restricted from making elaborate large distracting motions, such as dodging out of the way of a missle. Leisurely walking, floating, or flying at a steady pace in a constant direction are things people can relax while doing, so they should not interfere with spell casting.

If we take the 'physical action' thing too literally it paralyzes mages and contrasts with the obvious nature of Rifts revealed to us through flavour text and images. You could interpret 'physical action' to mean that mages can't turn their heads or change where their eyes are pointed at, it's silliness.

In regard to jet packs, it's the pack doing the work so I don't think the mage would be distracted by it. It's like spellcasting while riding an escalator, or spellcasting while falling.

I also think that things which people do constantly and instinctively (walking, or flying if you're a dragon) should not distract from spellcasting. If you're a human who recently got a pair of bio-wizardry wings attached to you and are just familiarizing yourself with them, on the other hand, that should obviously distract you until you've had a few years experience under your belt and it becomes second nature.

[Shark_Force]

rifts underseas actually has rules for casting spells underwater. those rules are repeated in the book of magic, at the opening of the ocean magic section, iirc. then again, one of the books in the siege of tolkeen series (or possibly CWC?) also has rules on how being tied up, gagged, wearing armor, etc interfere with spellcasting (those may have been repeated in the GMG, BoM in the restraints section, or even RUE as well... i'm not sure, i think they're mentioned somewhere else, but i can't remember exactly where)

but in any event, i wouldn't waste too much time trying to get consistency out of palladium products. figure out what you like and what works for you, and go with that. in all likelihood, if there is a rule you are using that doesn't have a contradictory rule printed somewhere in another book, you probably either just don't own the right book (or can't find that contradictory rule in the massive pile of books you do own), or they probably just haven't gotten around to printing that rule yet.

having said that, i don't think most people are really considering what it would involve to operate a jet pack. rifts does not generally have direct man-machine interface apart from cyborgs, and that's usually only with their own body unless they use a headjack. how exactly do you think you control a jet pack anyways? wiggling your body? the only way that makes sense to me is that you have some sort of manual control system operated using your hands. precisely what it will look like will depend on the model of jet pack and so forth.

furthermore, i'm not convinced that in most cases you can just let go of those controls and stay in place. in all likelihood, just as is the case with any other sort of flying machine, the second you let go of controls is the second you start to crash your vehicle.

now, some versions could potentially have an autopilot/hover function. but in the absence of such a function, you are going to need to keep your hands on the controls constantly. it will also require at least some degree of concentration for most people. i would consider it very unlikely that the average mage has developed the ability to cast spells while also steering a jet pack, though i'm not going to go so far as to say it's impossible. even with autopilot, i expect it would be awkward... unless the pack comes with a full-body rigid frame, you're basically going to be hanging from it while you cast spells, which is going to impact your arm mobility as well.

which is why i would require the theoretical autopilot jet pack with some sort of place to stand as being the requirement if you want to cast spells while operating a jet pack. casting spells while sitting in a plane, on the other hand, i would have no problem with (provided you're not piloting the plane at the time).

[dragonfett]

Is it possible to fire a rifle from a jet pack?

[flatline]

The words and/or hand gestures serve as a mental focus. In other words, they are mental crutches.

As such, with practice and experience, casters should be able to internalize spells and grow out of their need such mental crutches. Does a 10th level caster really need to speak the words to cast a 1st level spell? Really? Why can't he just concentrate for a moment to shape the PPE into the familiar pattern and cause the effect?

When I was learning to juggle, anything that broke my concentration made me drop something. Now I can watch TV and carry on a conversation while juggling. Did juggling get easier? No, the requirements of the pattern are exactly the same, but I trained my mind and body to create the pattern automatically without the need of my direct attention.

I can do math in my head now that 20 years ago I would have required pencil and paper to do. Did the math problems get easier? No, they're exactly the same, but I GOT BETTER AT IT by practicing.

It's ridiculous to me that Palladium spell casters who have made it their life's vocation to study magic don't improve at casting spells in any way except, possibly, spell power.

Okay, rant's over.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

I can do math in my head now that 20 years ago I would have required pencil and paper to do. Did the math problems get easier? No, they're exactly the same, but I GOT BETTER AT IT by practicing.

Yup.
Other people, though, even professionals, need a calculator.

There should be skills that characters can take to cover this kind of thing.

[Nightmask]

The words and/or hand gestures serve as a mental focus. In other words, they are mental crutches.

As such, with practice and experience, casters should be able to internalize spells and grow out of their need such mental crutches. Does a 10th level caster really need to speak the words to cast a 1st level spell? Really? Why can't he just concentrate for a moment to shape the PPE into the familiar pattern and cause the effect?

When I was learning to juggle, anything that broke my concentration made me drop something. Now I can watch TV and carry on a conversation while juggling. Did juggling get easier? No, the requirements of the pattern are exactly the same, but I trained my mind and body to create the pattern automatically without the need of my direct attention.

I can do math in my head now that 20 years ago I would have required pencil and paper to do. Did the math problems get easier? No, they're exactly the same, but I GOT BETTER AT IT by practicing.

It's ridiculous to me that Palladium spell casters who have made it their life's vocation to study magic don't improve at casting spells in any way except, possibly, spell power.

Okay, rant's over.

--flatline

Nazcan Line Makers actually do get better, after a certain level they no longer have to draw the physical lines in order to cast one and can simply sketch them out in the air.

[Shark_Force]

Is it possible to fire a rifle from a jet pack?

i would say no, unless you have the sharpshooting ability to fire a rifle one-handed. i'd allow pistols, in much the same way that you *could* fire a pistol while driving a car or motorcycle or similar... it's possible, but probably not the best idea you've ever had.

edit: mind you, aimed shots would be impossible imo, and i'm not sure i would even grant full WP bonus... i'm not a huge fan of the old rules for shooting wild, but if i was, i'd probably consider it shooting wild.

that said, i do believe it should be possible to modify a jet pack to be hands-free. if, for example, you gutted a power armor of it's control systems (especially a flying one) and built that into a suit of body armour, and modified a jet pack's controls, that would be one way. another way might be to use the universal headjack cyberware to control a modified jet pack. but a default, off-the-shelf one? nope.

[Killer Cyborg]

Is it possible to fire a rifle from a jet pack?

i would say no, unless you have the sharpshooting ability to fire a rifle one-handed. i'd allow pistols, in much the same way that you *could* fire a pistol while driving a car or motorcycle or similar... it's possible, but probably not the best idea you've ever had.

That would be firing Wild.

[Eclipse]

I'd just houserule it by assuming that a stably hovering jet pack-wearing magic user would be equivalent, in terms of how much distracted he is, to a mage on the ground with stable footing.

Obviously if you're actively flying around and trying to dodge attacks/obstacles while casting a complicated spell you'd be pretty screwed. If you're a high level battle-hardened mage (with a high % jetpack piloting skill) and you're just casting level 1-7 magic bolt-like spells while flying around with your jetpack- that'd be similar enough to how power armor pilots operate that I'd find it plausible.

[Shark_Force]

I'd just houserule it by assuming that a stably hovering jet pack-wearing magic user would be equivalent, in terms of how much distracted he is, to a mage on the ground with stable footing.

Obviously if you're actively flying around and trying to dodge attacks/obstacles while casting a complicated spell you'd be pretty screwed. If you're a high level battle-hardened mage (with a high % jetpack piloting skill) and you're just casting level 1-7 magic bolt-like spells while flying around with your jetpack- that'd be similar enough to how power armor pilots operate that I'd find it plausible.

power armor pilots don't need their hands to pilot their power armor. it's specifically designed that way. unless your jet pack is much more than merely a jet pack (ie includes a full body frame, has sensors to detect body movement and to track your eyes, uses cyberware headjack for controls, etc), there really isn't a plausible way to do that with a jet pack. if you just stop controlling a jet pack, the logical result is that you start spinning out of control into what will likely be a remarkably unpleasant head-first crash landing.

hovering is not something you maintain by just not changing things. especially when you're hovering using a device which is strapped to your back, and which can therefore change the direction it is facing at any moment as you shift your body. it requires constant control to maintain... if you let go of the controls, then you don't stay in place (at least, not with a jet pack... an anti-gravity or contra-gravity device work differently, for example), you start by slowly drifting away and then it will likely get progressively worse. within a few seconds, you could potentially be upside down rocketing yourself into the ground at maximum thrust, spinning around wildly, gradually leaning forward and rocketing in whatever direction you happened to be facing, or any number of other possibilities. it's a rocket, not a magic levitation device; it needs to be controlled constantly.

[flatline]

I'd just houserule it by assuming that a stably hovering jet pack-wearing magic user would be equivalent, in terms of how much distracted he is, to a mage on the ground with stable footing.

Obviously if you're actively flying around and trying to dodge attacks/obstacles while casting a complicated spell you'd be pretty screwed. If you're a high level battle-hardened mage (with a high % jetpack piloting skill) and you're just casting level 1-7 magic bolt-like spells while flying around with your jetpack- that'd be similar enough to how power armor pilots operate that I'd find it plausible.

power armor pilots don't need their hands to pilot their power armor. it's specifically designed that way. unless your jet pack is much more than merely a jet pack (ie includes a full body frame, has sensors to detect body movement and to track your eyes, uses cyberware headjack for controls, etc), there really isn't a plausible way to do that with a jet pack. if you just stop controlling a jet pack, the logical result is that you start spinning out of control into what will likely be a remarkably unpleasant head-first crash landing.

hovering is not something you maintain by just not changing things. especially when you're hovering using a device which is strapped to your back, and which can therefore change the direction it is facing at any moment as you shift your body. it requires constant control to maintain... if you let go of the controls, then you don't stay in place (at least, not with a jet pack... an anti-gravity or contra-gravity device work differently, for example), you start by slowly drifting away and then it will likely get progressively worse. within a few seconds, you could potentially be upside down rocketing yourself into the ground at maximum thrust, spinning around wildly, gradually leaning forward and rocketing in whatever direction you happened to be facing, or any number of other possibilities. it's a rocket, not a magic levitation device; it needs to be controlled constantly.

All the things you've described could be trivially handled by an on-board control system.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Look, Ma! No Hands!!

Granted, the guy doesn't hover or anything... but then again, he's using today's technology, not futuristic, Rifts-style tech.

As Flatinline points out, it's possible that a lot of the fine-tuning of the work could be done by on-board control systems, for stuff like hovering.
But a lot of the piloting can be done just by body motions.

[kaid]

Physical action would mean things like heavy lifting, running, prowling and other physical skills.

Yes basically things that would take a melee action to accomplish.

For the jet pack if they are not doing something that would require them to make a piloting role I would say casting from a jetpack would be fine as long as its going at its cruising speed or lower. If it was trying to go faster than that or taking elaborate evasive maneuvers I would rule out anything over level 1-5. For the spells level 1-5 any thing that would allow you to pull a pistol and shoot it will allow you to cast a level 1-5 spell.

[Eclipse]

I'd just houserule it by assuming that a stably hovering jet pack-wearing magic user would be equivalent, in terms of how much distracted he is, to a mage on the ground with stable footing.

Obviously if you're actively flying around and trying to dodge attacks/obstacles while casting a complicated spell you'd be pretty screwed. If you're a high level battle-hardened mage (with a high % jetpack piloting skill) and you're just casting level 1-7 magic bolt-like spells while flying around with your jetpack- that'd be similar enough to how power armor pilots operate that I'd find it plausible.

power armor pilots don't need their hands to pilot their power armor. it's specifically designed that way. unless your jet pack is much more than merely a jet pack (ie includes a full body frame, has sensors to detect body movement and to track your eyes, uses cyberware headjack for controls, etc), there really isn't a plausible way to do that with a jet pack. if you just stop controlling a jet pack, the logical result is that you start spinning out of control into what will likely be a remarkably unpleasant head-first crash landing.

hovering is not something you maintain by just not changing things. especially when you're hovering using a device which is strapped to your back, and which can therefore change the direction it is facing at any moment as you shift your body. it requires constant control to maintain... if you let go of the controls, then you don't stay in place (at least, not with a jet pack... an anti-gravity or contra-gravity device work differently, for example), you start by slowly drifting away and then it will likely get progressively worse. within a few seconds, you could potentially be upside down rocketing yourself into the ground at maximum thrust, spinning around wildly, gradually leaning forward and rocketing in whatever direction you happened to be facing, or any number of other possibilities. it's a rocket, not a magic levitation device; it needs to be controlled constantly.

All the things you've described could be trivially handled by an on-board control system.

--flatline

Yes, I'm no expert on the operational details of real world jet packs, or even of futuristic ones but it's up to your GM how user-friendly the Rifts ones are.

[Blue_Lion]

Here is one that I always found odd. What about the use of TW vehiles and devicies. As I understand it part of the reason it takes mages for most of them is they have to will the device to work as much or more than physical controls. So what about operating any TW vehicle? If you have to will it to work whould that affect spell casting.

[Tor]

Physical action would mean things like heavy lifting, running, prowling and other physical skills.

It would, but that phrase doesn't except negligible actions like calmly walking, turning, looking, talking, breathing or even blinking.

[Shark_Force]

i dunno, none of the footage really shows whether he's doing anything with his hands when he turns (the close-ups you can't see what he's doing, the far away shots you can't really see any detail of him), nor does it show how long he keeps his hands out for.

furthermore, as was pointed out, that's a guy flying with wings, not at all how i would expect a jet pack in rifts to operate. i doubt that could could hover at all, whether he wanted to or not...

but yes, an autopilot could handle the flying. i believe that was one of the stipulations. but then again, that would be a modification, since as far as i know none of the jet packs have an autopilot option listed (though i could be wrong).

but sure, if you make the pack capable of flying itself, then a magic user could probably cast, provided you're not pulling any extreme manoeuvres (but then, i don't think you'd want to have autopilot perform anything *too* crazy even without trying to cast spells...)

[drewkitty ~..~]

I would say that a Mage of any sorts can not cast magic while having to do any sort of driving, other then strait line or gentle curves. i.e.: if it is somewhere a normal person has to concentrate on their driving then a mage can't cast magic doing the same.

[Tor]

TBH I don't really care if a mage can cast while using a jetpack, but I think he should be able to if he's using Fly as the Eagle or something.

[Shark_Force]

TBH I don't really care if a mage can cast while using a jetpack, but I think he should be able to if he's using Fly as the Eagle or something.

i'd be fine with that. fly as the eagle makes no mention of requiring the use of your hands for flight, so they should be free for spellcasting.

[Noon]

In one campaign I might insist on a pedantic 'standing absolutely still' rule.

In another campaign I might allow casting while jetpacking.

Or I might start with the former, but if a players cool and enthusiastic, go to the latter.

The wording so far doesn't seem to technical writing, leaving plenty of ambiguity.

Trying to read a special meaning out of ambiguous text - to me, that generally doesn't end up at anything fun (except by chance), so I'd just choose which seems more fun to me when I start the campaign.

[Mack]

A data point from The Cutting Room Floor.

150. When casting spells would it be permissible to begin casting while behind cover and then 'pop up' to cast the spell?

Answer: Yes, there is no reason not and in a combat zone its also just a good idea.

[Tor]

A data point from The Cutting Room Floor.

150. When casting spells would it be permissible to begin casting while behind cover and then 'pop up' to cast the spell?

Answer: Yes, there is no reason not and in a combat zone its also just a good idea.

Awesome find. I say this contradicts the 'no physical movement' thing.

In one campaign I might insist on a pedantic 'standing absolutely still' rule.

I think it's shallow and pedantic. Only a pedant would issue such a rule.

But then, being a pedant is actually okay.

[Akashic Soldier]

Awesome find. I say this contradicts the 'no physical movement' thing.

It doesn't actually say 'no physical movement,' it does say no running. So you can move a normal move increment (Running is speed x20 as explained in R:UE by the speed chart) so as long as you are not running you can take a move action as normal and still cast a spell. Physical action, I think indicates anything that requires an active physical effort; piloting a vehicle, leaping, juggling, hacking a computer, wrestling with an opponent, or lifting, throwing, or dragging something, etc.

That said, I still have not been able to find any mention of stable ground or the PoM flight platforms and I am thinking maybe I imagined it, but it just seems strange to me because I distinctly remember reading it in the living room and thinking to myself "Oh that is neat and good to know!"

EDIT: I am keeping my board activity to a minimum and staying focused on work right now, but I just want to make sure that I didn't open this thread then look like I turned tail and ran. I am still very interested in people's conclusions and if anyone can find the damn write up on the barges and flying platforms.

[Tor]

It doesn't actually say 'no physical movement,' it does say no running.

Oh okay, well then in that case, everything except running (and anything else particlarly specified as interfering) should be okay then. Was thinking it was quote.

Physical action, I think indicates anything that requires an active physical effort; piloting a vehicle, leaping, juggling, hacking a computer, wrestling with an opponent, or lifting, throwing, or dragging something, etc.

Hacking a computer can be done with zero physical effort if you have a headjack Even though with breathing and walking one can sorta go into auto-pilot I still say those counter as 'physical effort', if that happens to be the forbidding phrase in the literature.