Soul Drinkers have no effect on Gods and Alien Intelligences

[V-Origin]

Incorrect. As per WB2, page 128, the only requirements are that the victim's blood must be drawn by the weapon (cut) and the victim fails their save.

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

32. Can soul drinker swords from Rifts Atlantis affect gods and dragons?

Answer: As Soul Drinkers are Greater Rune weapons, there are very few beings that can resist their power to some degree. Among such entities are: Great Old Ones -- are immune to soul drinking. Alien Intelligence's (like the Lord of the Deep and Apsu of the Abyss), Deities that can be considered as Supreme Beings of their pantheons, and Splugorth -- can easily resist souldrinking because of their power level, but can be affected by continuous attacks. Supernatural Intelligence's (such as Modeus, Mictla, Mephisto), major Deities, and Death (of the Four Horsemen) -- can resist soul drinking with some effort but can be affected by repeated attacks. Vampire Intelligence's, Apocalypse Demons (excluding Death), minor Deities, and ancient dragons -- subject to soul drinking but will have a number of pluses to save (the bonus will vary the power level of the entity). Creatures with power levels below those mentioned already have no resistance to speak of vs. soul drinking. For entities and creatures that are n ot already mentioned, just extrapolate from the existing beings listed above.

I am going to modify this rule and state that..
Old Ones
Alien Intelligence's (Lord of the Deep and Apsu of the Abyss),
Deities that can be considered as Supreme Beings of their pantheons,
Splugorth,
Supernatural Intelligence's (such as Modeus, Mictla, Mephisto),
major Deities are totally invulnerable to normal soul drinking weapons even if their MDC are reduced to zero by such soul drinking rune weapons.

Death (of the Four Horsemen),
Vampire Intelligence's,
Apocalypse Demons (excluding Death),
minor Deities (Godlings)
ancient dragons
Immortals of various kinds (including mega hero immortals & other immortals found in HU, NB and other genres)
Major Elemental Intelligences
Angels are totally invulnerable to normal soul drinking weapons unless all their MDC are reduced to zero.

Of course variations on the above categories would be allowed in the future.

All other supernatural entities including demigods, greater/lesser demons and devils, nightbanes etc would get bonuses to save.

All mortals including the mortal wilderness scout are vulnerable to soul drinkers as written in the text of course with no bonuses to save.

The gist of this thread is .. if any GM allows major supernatural beings to be defeated with just a single cut by a soul drinker rune weapon releasing some blood, then where would the challenge be?

No God or Alien intelligence or Ancient Dragon or other major supernatural being should lose their soul with just one cut of a soul drinker rune weapon because if that was the case, some other noob would have taken down these Gods, Alien Intelligences, and Ancient Dragons a long time ago.

Even those supernatural entities like demigods, greater/lesser demons and devils, nightbanes can only have their souls stolen with one cut of a soul-drinker rune weapon if and only if such rune weapons are powered by the souls of alien intelligences or other comparatively powerful souls! But alien intelligences can't have their souls stolen by rune weapons in the first place so how are you going to create such powerful soul drinker rune weapons?

Old Ones are of course invulnerable to soul drinking even if their MDC are reduced to zero by rune weapon soul drinkers.

[Tor]

Just to cut up and emphasize the more relevant parts from crystal's FAQ paste:

1. Great Old Ones -- are immune to soul drinking.

2. Alien Intelligence's (like the Lord of the Deep and Apsu of the Abyss), Deities that can be considered as Supreme Beings of their pantheons, and Splugorth -- can easily resist souldrinking because of their power level, but can be affected by continuous attacks.

3. Supernatural Intelligence's (such as Modeus, Mictla, Mephisto), major Deities, and Death (of the Four Horsemen) -- can resist soul drinking with some effort but can be affected by repeated attacks.

4. Vampire Intelligence's, Apocalypse Demons (excluding Death), minor Deities, and ancient dragons -- subject to soul drinking but will have a number of pluses to save (the bonus will vary the power level of the entity).

I dunno about everyone, else, but I find this confusing as heck, and worded too vaguely to be useful except to basically let (read: force) GMs make rulings about it all.

The only thing for sure is that great old ones (I assume this means the ones who are named, and not the minor one in the sourcebook) are immune.

My problem here is: 2 and 3. A distinction is made between intelligences which are 'alien' and those which are 'supernatural'. I dunno about everyone else, but I kinda figured such terms interchangeable until now.

The Modeus/Mictla/Mephisto intelligences (this means the CB1 chars, not the D&G chars) are supernatural, but aren't they also alien?

It's also not always clear when a deity is supreme versus 'major' versus 'minor'. I'm going to rule that any who have to pay double for deific powers are minor, because that makes it easy. Any who pay standard cost are 'major'. Those who are the head of triple-size pantheons (basically just the northern and egyptian gods) like Ra and Od could be seen as 'supreme beings' I guess. Assuming this would also mean bros like Odin/Zeus/Brahma/Zurvan in Pantheons. Some guesswork has to be done about whether it'd work on Ahura Mazda/Ahriman or Vishnu/Siva though.

Another problem is with 4: I thought vampire intelligences WERE supernatural alien intelligences. They're not? It's one thing if you want to say 'splugorth are better than your standard alien/supernatural intelligence' and give them extra power, but they're basically ranking vamps below normal AIs... but why?

Another issue is: obviously, 'number of pluses' isn't specified, nor is the meaning of 'some effort'/'easily' or 'repeated'/'continuous'. The latter case we can assume you can't 1-hit soul-drink this class of enemy, but how many hits beyond one, we're left to guess. It does indicate that eventually their soul WILL get drunk though, just not how long it gets.

A way to easily interpret this occurs to me though: many major AIs can split their essence into parts, have those bits go possess people, etc. The Splugorth have this ability. Perhaps what happens is if they fail their save (with bonuses, natch) only a split essence gets absorbed, and their main essence would only get eaten after all those got drank first.

Creatures with power levels below those mentioned already have no resistance to speak of vs. soul drinking.

This is of course, totally wrong though, because a save vs. soul-drinking is a save versus magic, and lots of creatures not on this list have bonuses to save versus magic. It doesn't work like Nxla's soul-drinking where no bonuses apply.

That said: if we're looking for bonuses to apply versus soul-drinking, copying over the ones some species against Nxla get could make sense. Except maybe that bonus that psychics get. Screw psychics, no bonuses for them versus rune weapons.

[V-Origin]

If Gods, Alien Intelligences, Ancient Dragons, Deities, Demon/Dyval Overlords, 4 Horsemen, Godlings can be so easily taken down by rune weapons with just one cut of a rune weapon soul drinker, you can be rest assured that there would be no major supernatural beings left standing in the megaverse. This is the key point.

Thraxus' soul, especially when he has made so many enemies, would have been absorbed by a rune weapon soul drinker way before he ever establishes a foothold on Center.

I recognize the fact that most rune weapons are powered by souls of major supernatural beings. However the souls of these major supernatural beings are captured only AFTER all their MDC are gone i.e only after their deaths.

If a GM is fool enough to let any major supernatural being, even a being as lowly as a Godling like Thraxus, get his soul captured with just ONE cut of a rune soul drinker, then the entire megaverse would be flooded with rune weapons and that is clearly not the case.

[V-Origin]

Just to cut up and emphasize the more relevant parts from crystal's FAQ paste:

1. Great Old Ones -- are immune to soul drinking.

2. Alien Intelligence's (like the Lord of the Deep and Apsu of the Abyss), Deities that can be considered as Supreme Beings of their pantheons, and Splugorth -- can easily resist souldrinking because of their power level, but can be affected by continuous attacks.

3. Supernatural Intelligence's (such as Modeus, Mictla, Mephisto), major Deities, and Death (of the Four Horsemen) -- can resist soul drinking with some effort but can be affected by repeated attacks.

4. Vampire Intelligence's, Apocalypse Demons (excluding Death), minor Deities, and ancient dragons -- subject to soul drinking but will have a number of pluses to save (the bonus will vary the power level of the entity).

I dunno about everyone, else, but I find this confusing as heck, and worded too vaguely to be useful except to basically let (read: force) GMs make rulings about it all.

The only thing for sure is that great old ones (I assume this means the ones who are named, and not the minor one in the sourcebook) are immune.

My problem here is: 2 and 3. A distinction is made between intelligences which are 'alien' and those which are 'supernatural'. I dunno about everyone else, but I kinda figured such terms interchangeable until now.

The Modeus/Mictla/Mephisto intelligences (this means the CB1 chars, not the D&G chars) are supernatural, but aren't they also alien?

It's also not always clear when a deity is supreme versus 'major' versus 'minor'. I'm going to rule that any who have to pay double for deific powers are minor, because that makes it easy. Any who pay standard cost are 'major'. Those who are the head of triple-size pantheons (basically just the northern and egyptian gods) like Ra and Od could be seen as 'supreme beings' I guess. Assuming this would also mean bros like Odin/Zeus/Brahma/Zurvan in Pantheons. Some guesswork has to be done about whether it'd work on Ahura Mazda/Ahriman or Vishnu/Siva though.

Another problem is with 4: I thought vampire intelligences WERE supernatural alien intelligences. They're not? It's one thing if you want to say 'splugorth are better than your standard alien/supernatural intelligence' and give them extra power, but they're basically ranking vamps below normal AIs... but why?

Another issue is: obviously, 'number of pluses' isn't specified, nor is the meaning of 'some effort'/'easily' or 'repeated'/'continuous'. The latter case we can assume you can't 1-hit soul-drink this class of enemy, but how many hits beyond one, we're left to guess. It does indicate that eventually their soul WILL get drunk though, just not how long it gets.

A way to easily interpret this occurs to me though: many major AIs can split their essence into parts, have those bits go possess people, etc. The Splugorth have this ability. Perhaps what happens is if they fail their save (with bonuses, natch) only a split essence gets absorbed, and their main essence would only get eaten after all those got drank first.

Creatures with power levels below those mentioned already have no resistance to speak of vs. soul drinking.

This is of course, totally wrong though, because a save vs. soul-drinking is a save versus magic, and lots of creatures not on this list have bonuses to save versus magic. It doesn't work like Nxla's soul-drinking where no bonuses apply.

That said: if we're looking for bonuses to apply versus soul-drinking, copying over the ones some species against Nxla get could make sense. Except maybe that bonus that psychics get. Screw psychics, no bonuses for them versus rune weapons.

The writers at Palladium clearly do not have the intention of giving any PCs the chance to take down any major supernatural being including All Gods and Godlings, All Old Ones, All Alien Intelligences (Including Vampire Intelligences), Ancient Dragons, Major Demon/Dyval Overlords including 4 horsemen with just one cut of a soul drinker rune weapon.

If it was that easy, then what's the use of having hundreds of thousands of MDCs possessed by most major supernatural beings?

The normal soul-drinking ability to take a person's soul with just one cut clearly only applies to mundane mortals. Granted some bonuses to save can be given to mortals but there is no way any major supernatural being can have his soul stolen with just one cut of a rune weapon soul drinker no matter how powerful that soul drinker weapon is.

That clearly goes against game balance and I am sure the Palladium staff will agree with me.

[cornholioprime]

Incorrect. As per WB2, page 128, the only requirements are that the victim's blood must be drawn by the weapon (cut) and the victim fails their save.

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

32. Can soul drinker swords from Rifts Atlantis affect gods and dragons?

Answer: As Soul Drinkers are Greater Rune weapons, there are very few beings that can resist their power to some degree. Among such entities are: Great Old Ones -- are immune to soul drinking. Alien Intelligence's (like the Lord of the Deep and Apsu of the Abyss), Deities that can be considered as Supreme Beings of their pantheons, and Splugorth -- can easily resist souldrinking because of their power level, but can be affected by continuous attacks. Supernatural Intelligence's (such as Modeus, Mictla, Mephisto), major Deities, and Death (of the Four Horsemen) -- can resist soul drinking with some effort but can be affected by repeated attacks. Vampire Intelligence's, Apocalypse Demons (excluding Death), minor Deities, and ancient dragons -- subject to soul drinking but will have a number of pluses to save (the bonus will vary the power level of the entity). Creatures with power levels below those mentioned already have no resistance to speak of vs. soul drinking. For entities and creatures that are n ot already mentioned, just extrapolate from the existing beings listed above.

I am going to modify this rule and state that..
Old Ones
Alien Intelligence's (Lord of the Deep and Apsu of the Abyss),
Deities that can be considered as Supreme Beings of their pantheons,
Splugorth,
Supernatural Intelligence's (such as Modeus, Mictla, Mephisto),
major Deities are totally invulnerable to normal soul drinking weapons even if their MDC are reduced to zero by such soul drinking rune weapons.

Death (of the Four Horsemen),
Vampire Intelligence's,
Apocalypse Demons (excluding Death),
minor Deities (Godlings)
ancient dragons
Immortals of various kinds (including mega hero immortals & other immortals found in HU, NB and other genres)
Major Elemental Intelligences
Angels are totally invulnerable to normal soul drinking weapons unless all their MDC are reduced to zero.

Of course variations on the above categories would be allowed in the future.

All other supernatural entities including demigods, greater/lesser demons and devils, nightbanes etc would get bonuses to save.

All mortals including the mortal wilderness scout are vulnerable to soul drinkers as written in the text of course with no bonuses to save.

The gist of this thread is .. if any GM allows major supernatural beings to be defeated with just a single cut by a soul drinker rune weapon releasing some blood, then where would the challenge be?

No God or Alien intelligence or Ancient Dragon or other major supernatural being should lose their soul with just one cut of a soul drinker rune weapon because if that was the case, some other noob would have taken down these Gods, Alien Intelligences, and Ancient Dragons a long time ago.

Even those supernatural entities like demigods, greater/lesser demons and devils, nightbanes can only have their souls stolen with one cut of a soul-drinker rune weapon if and only if such rune weapons are powered by the souls of alien intelligences or other comparatively powerful souls! But alien intelligences can't have their souls stolen by rune weapons in the first place so how are you going to create such powerful soul drinker rune weapons?

Old Ones are of course invulnerable to soul drinking even if their MDC are reduced to zero by rune weapon soul drinkers.

Two points have to be made here.

First: As someone who has been here since 2009 should almost certainly know by now, FAQ Answers rarely, if ever, have the same official status as canon information available within Palladium Books publications.

Second: Since there are, indeed, canon examples of beings of great mystical power that are either vulnerable to Rune Artifacts, or have been imprisoned within them, the OP's assertion that some beings are immune to Rune Weapons does not stand up to scrutiny (with the possible exception of the Old Ones, who are rumored to be the creators of the magical 'science' of Rune Wizardry).

Official Examples:

• Name: Aco
  Occupation: Head Goddess of her own pantheon.
  
  Power level: She is so powerful that in combat, she can even rob other deities of one of their deific powers!
  
  Stated vulnerability: Aco knows that at least one Rune Weapon has been created specifically for her -a sort of "magical genetic coding," as it were -and that it can kill her.
• The Tarnow Intelligence
  Name: Unknown
  
  Occupation: Stronger-than-average Alien Intelligence who got on the bad side of someone who was apparently even more badass than him.
  Now imprisoned within a crystal gem that, while it is not indestructible, regenerates at an incredibly fast rate.
  Moreover, the creature within is in such a strict prison that it is also compelled to do everything in its power to keep its prison safe!
  Power level: Stated to be significantly more powerful than the Alien Intelligences that can be created from the Conversion Book AI creation table.
• Rifts: Atlantis entry
  
  Page 129
  
  States that Gods, godlings, and Demon Lords are"typical power sources" for the most powerful Rune Weapons.
  (The point being made here: Would anyone seriously try to put forth the argument that a type of being who can potentially be CONTAINED in one of these Weapons forever, couldn't also be AFFECTED by them in combat?)
  
  
• Greatest Rune Weapon
  Name: Lord Koth
  Occupation: Vampire Intelligence who found out the hard way that his kind is no match for the Splugorth.
  Now imprisoned within a Greatest Rune Weapon for his insolence.
  Power level: Standard Vampire Intelligence.

How easy, or difficult, it might be for someone to actually be able to REACH and CAPTURE and RESTRAIN creatures of this power for the purpose of imprisoning them (let alone drink their souls) is a separate discussion, and not really germane to how possible it might be to take them down.
(Parvati's entry in Rifts: Pantheons of the Megaverse seems to imply that such beings of her power level have very, very, very high saves against the soul-drinking attack).

[ZorValachan]

a lot of assumtion if player's think a god or intelligence is just going to let someone with a rune weapon walk up to them and hit them. They'll be destroyed at a distance, through minions, or cast an armour of ithan... So no, even with rune weapons soul drinkinging such powerful beings, it would not be an end to them.

[V-Origin]

Incorrect. As per WB2, page 128, the only requirements are that the victim's blood must be drawn by the weapon (cut) and the victim fails their save.

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/index.php ... Itemid=200

32. Can soul drinker swords from Rifts Atlantis affect gods and dragons?

Answer: As Soul Drinkers are Greater Rune weapons, there are very few beings that can resist their power to some degree. Among such entities are: Great Old Ones -- are immune to soul drinking. Alien Intelligence's (like the Lord of the Deep and Apsu of the Abyss), Deities that can be considered as Supreme Beings of their pantheons, and Splugorth -- can easily resist souldrinking because of their power level, but can be affected by continuous attacks. Supernatural Intelligence's (such as Modeus, Mictla, Mephisto), major Deities, and Death (of the Four Horsemen) -- can resist soul drinking with some effort but can be affected by repeated attacks. Vampire Intelligence's, Apocalypse Demons (excluding Death), minor Deities, and ancient dragons -- subject to soul drinking but will have a number of pluses to save (the bonus will vary the power level of the entity). Creatures with power levels below those mentioned already have no resistance to speak of vs. soul drinking. For entities and creatures that are n ot already mentioned, just extrapolate from the existing beings listed above.

I am going to modify this rule and state that..
Old Ones
Alien Intelligence's (Lord of the Deep and Apsu of the Abyss),
Deities that can be considered as Supreme Beings of their pantheons,
Splugorth,
Supernatural Intelligence's (such as Modeus, Mictla, Mephisto),
major Deities are totally invulnerable to normal soul drinking weapons even if their MDC are reduced to zero by such soul drinking rune weapons.

Death (of the Four Horsemen),
Vampire Intelligence's,
Apocalypse Demons (excluding Death),
minor Deities (Godlings)
ancient dragons
Immortals of various kinds (including mega hero immortals & other immortals found in HU, NB and other genres)
Major Elemental Intelligences
Angels are totally invulnerable to normal soul drinking weapons unless all their MDC are reduced to zero.

Of course variations on the above categories would be allowed in the future.

All other supernatural entities including demigods, greater/lesser demons and devils, nightbanes etc would get bonuses to save.

All mortals including the mortal wilderness scout are vulnerable to soul drinkers as written in the text of course with no bonuses to save.

The gist of this thread is .. if any GM allows major supernatural beings to be defeated with just a single cut by a soul drinker rune weapon releasing some blood, then where would the challenge be?

No God or Alien intelligence or Ancient Dragon or other major supernatural being should lose their soul with just one cut of a soul drinker rune weapon because if that was the case, some other noob would have taken down these Gods, Alien Intelligences, and Ancient Dragons a long time ago.

Even those supernatural entities like demigods, greater/lesser demons and devils, nightbanes can only have their souls stolen with one cut of a soul-drinker rune weapon if and only if such rune weapons are powered by the souls of alien intelligences or other comparatively powerful souls! But alien intelligences can't have their souls stolen by rune weapons in the first place so how are you going to create such powerful soul drinker rune weapons?

Old Ones are of course invulnerable to soul drinking even if their MDC are reduced to zero by rune weapon soul drinkers.

Two points have to be made here.

First: As someone who has been here since 2009 should almost certainly know by now, FAQ Answers rarely, if ever, have the same official status as canon information available within Palladium Books publications.

Second: Since there are, indeed, canon examples of beings of great mystical power that are either vulnerable to Rune Artifacts, or have been imprisoned within them, the OP's assertion that some beings are immune to Rune Weapons does not stand up to scrutiny (with the possible exception of the Old Ones, who are rumored to be the creators of the magical 'science' of Rune Wizardry).

Official Examples:

• Name: Aco
  Occupation: Head Goddess of her own pantheon.
  
  Power level: She is so powerful that in combat, she can even rob other deities of one of their deific powers!
  
  Stated vulnerability: Aco knows that at least one Rune Weapon has been created specifically for her -a sort of "magical genetic coding," as it were -and that it can kill her.
• The Tarnow Intelligence
  Name: Unknown
  
  Occupation: Stronger-than-average Alien Intelligence who got on the bad side of someone who was apparently even more badass than him.
  Now imprisoned within a crystal gem that, while it is not indestructible, regenerates at an incredibly fast rate.
  Moreover, the creature within is in such a strict prison that it is also compelled to do everything in its power to keep its prison safe!
  Power level: Stated to be significantly more powerful than the Alien Intelligences that can be created from the Conversion Book AI creation table.
• Rifts: Atlantis entry
  
  Page 129
  
  States that Gods, godlings, and Demon Lords are"typical power sources" for the most powerful Rune Weapons.
  (The point being made here: Would anyone seriously try to put forth the argument that a type of being who can potentially be CONTAINED in one of these Weapons forever, couldn't also be AFFECTED by them in combat?)
  
  
• Greatest Rune Weapon
  Name: Lord Koth
  Occupation: Vampire Intelligence who found out the hard way that his kind is no match for the Splugorth.
  Now imprisoned within a Greatest Rune Weapon for his insolence.
  Power level: Standard Vampire Intelligence.

How easy, or difficult, it might be for someone to actually be able to REACH and CAPTURE and RESTRAIN creatures of this power for the purpose of imprisoning them (let alone drink their souls) is a separate discussion, and not really germane to how possible it might be to take them down.
(Parvati's entry in Rifts: Pantheons of the Megaverse seems to imply that such beings of her power level have very, very, very high saves against the soul-drinking attack).

I don't disagree with you.

In fact, I would say that some gods and alien intelligences have been captured and used to empower rune weapons after such gods and alien intelligences have been killed.

But to capture and steal the souls of major supernatural beings like gods, alien intelligences and ancient dragon gods with just one cut of a soul drinker rune weapon?

Hey my dragon god even created a rune weapon using a few major major supernatural beings himself. But my dragon god didn't do it so easily. He had to scheme and do all sorts of preparations in order to completely destroy such major supernatural beings before he can steal their souls.

The dragon god certainly didn't steal souls of gods and alien intelligences with just one cut of a rune weapon. That is not even gaming or fantasy. That is sheer childishness.

Cmon, this is supposed to be Rifts Megaverse where the big and bad rule not some fairy tales meant for 3-year-old toddlers

[V-Origin]

a lot of assumtion if player's think a god or intelligence is just going to let someone with a rune weapon walk up to them and hit them. They'll be destroyed at a distance, through minions, or cast an armour of ithan... So no, even with rune weapons soul drinkinging such powerful beings, it would not be an end to them.

well i think some really really powerful rune weapons can steal the souls of powerful beings but it is only after many rounds of titanic battle has been done and the powerful beings killed off by other powerful beings then can souls of powerful beings be trapped.

But it would be impossible for a mere mortal to use any normal rune weapon soul drinker and steal the soul of a god or even a godling with just one cut. That is just too downright outrageous and smacks of telly tubbies and barney to me.

Even fantasy got to have some basis in reality.

[Chronicle]

The relevance of soul drinking is a good question to ask about.

I can't stand when i have players using that ability on gods, Demon lords and the such and assume it will work. With the gods being as weak as a mortal in that regard it is a surprise there are so many out there.

My general house rule for Gods (anything above godling) is that it doesn't work, but does cause the 3x damage effect.

Demon lords and demons (deevils too) in general in my opinion don't have souls, this also include vampires, elementals and supernatural intelligences.

one spell i dislike immensely is Desicate the supernatural. (that one is a rough one to overcome) I usually apply the same rules in that regard for greater beings (Nixla has 100+k MDC, but desicate will kill it in short order) seems kind of pointless to have a beastly awsome enemy just to have it 1 shot by a single player in the group.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Out of curiosity, where did you get that the soul drinking ability of rune weapons is what's used to aquire souls to make more rune weapons? Conversion book one says that "A victem devoured by a rune weapon is forever lost". that implied to me that the soul is consumed--nothing left to use. and that getting a soul for a rune weapon required some kind of sacraficial ritual.

I agree there has to be some limit or else the splurgorth would have every Kydian weilding a rune weapon and that's clearly not the case, but I had also gotten the impression that soul drinking was permanent--the only way to free a soul inside the weapon would be to find a way to destroy it before the soul is consumed utterly.

[Nightmask]

Out of curiosity, where did you get that the soul drinking ability of rune weapons is what's used to aquire souls to make more rune weapons? Conversion book one says that "A victem devoured by a rune weapon is forever lost". that implied to me that the soul is consumed--nothing left to use. and that getting a soul for a rune weapon required some kind of sacraficial ritual.

I agree there has to be some limit or else the splurgorth would have every Kydian weilding a rune weapon and that's clearly not the case, but I had also gotten the impression that soul drinking was permanent--the only way to free a soul inside the weapon would be to find a way to destroy it before the soul is consumed utterly.

Well it's fairly obvious that Rune Weapons have some requirements like rare components that not even the Splugorth can overcome, otherwise they would indeed have rune weapons in the hands of all their minions. Certainly finding worthy individuals to meet the requirements of a power source can't be easy, since it takes powerful beings to be that power source the more powerful sources become progressively more difficult to capture, generally what's required to capture them will just as likely end up killing them.

[Colt47]

I really, really don't like soul drinking weapons in how they are written in palladium.

1. They have a market value...

2. They have no limit on how many souls they can steal

3. They basically have no official limit on what they CAN steal

I'd like them a lot more if the soul drinker would actually break after being used to kill a Greater God, splugorth, etc. Likewise, they really shouldn't have a market price and should be made so rare that it's more of a GM tool than a weapon.

[cornholioprime]

I don't disagree with you.

In fact, I would say that some gods and alien intelligences have been captured and used to empower rune weapons after such gods and alien intelligences have been killed.

But in your OP, you said this:

Supernatural Intelligence's (such as Modeus, Mictla, Mephisto),
major Deities are totally invulnerable to normal soul drinking weapons even if their MDC are reduced to zero by such soul drinking rune weapons.

What's the difference between being reduced to zero in this fashion, and being reduced to zero by any other means?

In any event, without cited sources, you're just going on what must be called even less than speculation regarding the means by which Life Essences are placed into Rune Weapons; AFAIK, it's never been covered in detail, not even in the pages of PFRPG.

But to capture and steal the souls of major supernatural beings like gods, alien intelligences and ancient dragon gods with just one cut of a soul drinker rune weapon?

They can be potentially taken down by the weapons of "mere mortals" with just one hit/explosion/blast, so why not Rune Weapons (speaking purely theoretically)?

Should beings of the highest levels of power get some sort of (undefined to the Gamers and un-statted) Extremely High Save against potential one-hit attacks?

Maybe.

And probably they do.

But as Aco's example shows, not even Gods are to be always and forever excluded from the possibility of being instantly destroyed by powerful magical/physical weapons and artifacts.

[V-Origin]

I don't disagree with you.

In fact, I would say that some gods and alien intelligences have been captured and used to empower rune weapons after such gods and alien intelligences have been killed.

But in your OP, you said this:

Supernatural Intelligence's (such as Modeus, Mictla, Mephisto),
major Deities are totally invulnerable to normal soul drinking weapons even if their MDC are reduced to zero by such soul drinking rune weapons.

What's the difference between being reduced to zero in this fashion, and being reduced to zero by any other means?

In any event, without cited sources, you're just going on what must be called even less than speculation regarding the means by which Life Essences are placed into Rune Weapons; AFAIK, it's never been covered in detail, not even in the pages of PFRPG.

But to capture and steal the souls of major supernatural beings like gods, alien intelligences and ancient dragon gods with just one cut of a soul drinker rune weapon?

They can be potentially taken down by the weapons of "mere mortals" with just one hit/explosion/blast, so why not Rune Weapons (speaking purely theoretically)?

Should beings of the highest levels of power get some sort of (undefined to the Gamers and un-statted) Extremely High Save against potential one-hit attacks?

Maybe.

And probably they do.

But as Aco's example shows, not even Gods are to be always and forever excluded from the possibility of being instantly destroyed by powerful magical/physical weapons and artifacts.

I am not too sure about other powerful weapons but I know for sure that no God or Alien Intelligence or even Ancient Dragons will ever have their souls stolen with just one cut of a soul drinker rune weapon.

This is the focus of this thread so please try not to divert the thread away from this focus.

[cornholioprime]

I don't disagree with you.

In fact, I would say that some gods and alien intelligences have been captured and used to empower rune weapons after such gods and alien intelligences have been killed.

But in your OP, you said this:

Supernatural Intelligence's (such as Modeus, Mictla, Mephisto),
major Deities are totally invulnerable to normal soul drinking weapons even if their MDC are reduced to zero by such soul drinking rune weapons.

What's the difference between being reduced to zero in this fashion, and being reduced to zero by any other means?

In any event, without cited sources, you're just going on what must be called even less than speculation regarding the means by which Life Essences are placed into Rune Weapons; AFAIK, it's never been covered in detail, not even in the pages of PFRPG.

But to capture and steal the souls of major supernatural beings like gods, alien intelligences and ancient dragon gods with just one cut of a soul drinker rune weapon?

They can be potentially taken down by the weapons of "mere mortals" with just one hit/explosion/blast, so why not Rune Weapons (speaking purely theoretically)?

Should beings of the highest levels of power get some sort of (undefined to the Gamers and un-statted) Extremely High Save against potential one-hit attacks?

Maybe.

And probably they do.

But as Aco's example shows, not even Gods are to be always and forever excluded from the possibility of being instantly destroyed by powerful magical/physical weapons and artifacts.

I am not too sure about other powerful weapons but I know for sure that no God or Alien Intelligence or even Ancient Dragons will ever have their souls stolen with just one cut of a soul drinker rune weapon.

This is the focus of this thread so please try not to divert the thread away from this focus.

How is it that you REPEATEDLY miss the Aco example (I say again, the head of her Pantheon, so powerful that she can strip other gods of their Deific powers, and I'll add that she started out as not just any old goddess but as an Earth Mother in her home dimension), and continue to say what you keep saying?

BOOK and Page number, please, or else your statement exists ONLY as a personal House Rule of yours.

Or do you need me (or others) to point out the "The stuff in here isn't official, these are just rules we rolled around in our heads before we put what we put in the Books" disclaimer in the FAQ and Cutting Room Floor sections of the website??

On the "cutting room floor," you will find things that went out of print, were forgotten or left out for other reasons, along with general errata and excluded material from various books.

The only truly canonical sources is the published texts from Palladium Books.

I provided a Book and Page Number; several of them, in fact.
You are being asked to do the same.

YES, we all of us understand, BEFORE you try to type it again, that you might choose to do differently in YOUR games, but neither your OP nor your subsequent responses (yet) indicate at the time of this writing that a House Rule was what you were going for in this Thread. If that is what you were actually going for, then you need to indicate it more clearly.

[V-Origin]

I don't disagree with you.

In fact, I would say that some gods and alien intelligences have been captured and used to empower rune weapons after such gods and alien intelligences have been killed.

But in your OP, you said this:

Supernatural Intelligence's (such as Modeus, Mictla, Mephisto),
major Deities are totally invulnerable to normal soul drinking weapons even if their MDC are reduced to zero by such soul drinking rune weapons.

What's the difference between being reduced to zero in this fashion, and being reduced to zero by any other means?

In any event, without cited sources, you're just going on what must be called even less than speculation regarding the means by which Life Essences are placed into Rune Weapons; AFAIK, it's never been covered in detail, not even in the pages of PFRPG.

But to capture and steal the souls of major supernatural beings like gods, alien intelligences and ancient dragon gods with just one cut of a soul drinker rune weapon?

They can be potentially taken down by the weapons of "mere mortals" with just one hit/explosion/blast, so why not Rune Weapons (speaking purely theoretically)?

Should beings of the highest levels of power get some sort of (undefined to the Gamers and un-statted) Extremely High Save against potential one-hit attacks?

Maybe.

And probably they do.

But as Aco's example shows, not even Gods are to be always and forever excluded from the possibility of being instantly destroyed by powerful magical/physical weapons and artifacts.

I am not too sure about other powerful weapons but I know for sure that no God or Alien Intelligence or even Ancient Dragons will ever have their souls stolen with just one cut of a soul drinker rune weapon.

This is the focus of this thread so please try not to divert the thread away from this focus.

How is it that you REPEATEDLY miss the Aco example (I say again, the head of her Pantheon, so powerful that she can strip other gods of their Deific powers, and I'll add that she started out as not just any old goddess but as an Earth Mother in her home dimension), and continue to say what you keep saying?

BOOK and Page number, please, or else your statement exists ONLY as a personal House Rule of yours.

Or do you need me (or others) to point out the "The stuff in here isn't official, these are just rules we rolled around in our heads before we put what we put in the Books" disclaimer in the FAQ and Cutting Room Floor sections of the website??

On the "cutting room floor," you will find things that went out of print, were forgotten or left out for other reasons, along with general errata and excluded material from various books.

The only truly canonical sources is the published texts from Palladium Books.

I provided a Book and Page Number; several of them, in fact.
You are being asked to do the same.

YES, we all of us understand, BEFORE you try to type it again, that you might choose to do differently in YOUR games, but neither your OP nor your subsequent responses (yet) indicate at the time of this writing that a House Rule was what you were going for in this Thread. If that is what you were actually going for, then you need to indicate it more clearly.

Yes this is more of a house rule in my game that gods, alien intelligences, ancient dragons and other major supernatural beings do not lose their souls with just one cut of a soul drinker rune weapon. No book or page number except for what's in the faq shown in my OP.

In regards to Aco, because she has a special vulnerability to rune weapons, maybe I would rule that she doesn't have the normal invulnerability against rune weapons possessed by other gods, alien intelligences and other major supernatural beings.

If someone can tell me where in rifters or conversion book one or any other book does it say that gods or dragons or alien intelligences have specific bonuses against soul drinking, that would be appreciated.

[Chronicle]

i have to agree with crystaleye this time, last thing i need is a vagabond who happens to match the alignment of a rune weapon to just pick on up and kill Hercules while he is out fishing because he also happened to roll a nat 20 and herc rolls a 1 to save


(i have seen this happen multiple times in similar situations)

[Tor]

If Gods, Alien Intelligences, Ancient Dragons, Deities, Demon/Dyval Overlords, 4 Horsemen, Godlings can be so easily taken down by rune weapons with just one cut of a rune weapon soul drinker, you can be rest assured that there would be no major supernatural beings left standing in the megaverse. This is the key point. Thraxus' soul, especially when he has made so many enemies, would have been absorbed by a rune weapon soul drinker way before he ever establishes a foothold on Center.

That's the thing though: all these things would have amazing bonuses to save versus magic (and I think you only need to save versus a spell strength of 12 to avoid getting your soul drank) so the likelihood of these guys getting drank in a single hit is pretty slim.

Although there is that whole matter of rune weapons doing critical damage (isn't it like double or triple) from a soul-drinking attack if the saving's throw fails and they survive it.

There's a limitation on how many souls a weapon can drink per day (something like 4?) but not how many attempts, so the way this multiples soul drinker's base damage is pretty impressive.

If a GM is fool enough to let any major supernatural being, even a being as lowly as a Godling like Thraxus, get his soul captured with just ONE cut of a rune soul drinker, then the entire megaverse would be flooded with rune weapons

What on earth are you talking about? Getting your soul drank by a rune weapon doesn't create additional rune weapons from those souls. I'm not even sure if it's possible to retrieve drunken souls for such a purpose (sounds like a good thing to invent a spell for though).

I recognize the fact that most rune weapons are powered by souls of major supernatural beings. However the souls of these major supernatural beings are captured only AFTER all their MDC are gone i.e only after their deaths.

Um, actually the process by which souls are put inside rune weapons is left pretty much up in the air as far as I know, I don't recall any rules about having to deplete MDC. Killing someone might make it easier to dominate them with magic though, so would probably be common.

The writers at Palladium clearly do not have the intention of giving any PCs the chance to take down any major supernatural being including All Gods and Godlings, All Old Ones, All Alien Intelligences (Including Vampire Intelligences), Ancient Dragons, Major Demon/Dyval Overlords including 4 horsemen with just one cut of a soul drinker rune weapon.

If it was that easy, then what's the use of having hundreds of thousands of MDCs possessed by most major supernatural beings?

Not sure why you included godlings in this list, hundreds of thousands of MDC? =P

We should keep in mind that a lot of these things have the ability to do magic armor spells which would prevent soul drinker attacks.

I imagine a lot of these guys would also have that spell which adds hundreds of pounds to weight (and non-living items don't get a saving's throw... not sure about rune weapons since they might be considered living?) which might be used to immobilize a rune weapon.

The normal soul-drinking ability to take a person's soul with just one cut clearly only applies to mundane mortals.

Wrong. Mundane mortals pretty much get insta-killed in rifts, being SDC and being that rune weapons inflict MD. A vast variety of beings (every single one not listed in that FAQ) are potential targets.

Granted some bonuses to save can be given to mortals but there is no way any major supernatural being can have his soul stolen with just one cut of a rune weapon soul drinker no matter how powerful that soul drinker weapon is.

On the contrary: vampire intelligences are major super natural beings (alien intelligences at that) yet the FAQ you posted indicates that they can get taken out in a single attack, assuming they fail their save. As can ancient dragons, minor deities, and the 3 supporting Horsemen. These things aren't listed on the same level as the higher up beings who definitely require at least 2 successful souldrinking attacks to get drunk.

FAQ Answers rarely, if ever, have the same official status as canon information available within Palladium Books publications.

True, I'm all for disregarding FAQ if it contradicts books but in this case it's commenting on something sorta unaddressed and not all to disruptive.

there are, indeed, canon examples of beings of great mystical power that are either vulnerable to Rune Artifacts

The argument isn't that anything is 'immune' to rune artifacts (except the GOO) just that they resist the soul-drinking attack to various degrees.

or have been imprisoned within them

There are ways to imprison besides soul-drinking though. The GOO are imprisoned, for example, yet are immune to soul-drinking, so there exist stronger forms of magic.

the OP's assertion that some beings are immune to Rune Weapons does not stand up to scrutiny (with the possible exception of the Old Ones, who are rumored to be the creators of the magical 'science' of Rune Wizardry).

The FAQ quote indeed noly indicates that the GOO are utterly immune to them. Lesser beings only resist them, either taking multiple savings throw failures (how many we don't know) or getting bonuses to save (how many we don't know) based on their rank.

Aco: Head Goddess of her own pantheon: She is so powerful that in combat, she can even rob other deities of one of their deific powers: knows that at least one Rune Weapon has been created specifically for her -a sort of "magical genetic coding," as it were -and that it can kill her.

It's easy to be the head of your pantheon when it's only 2 gods strong =/

IMO she's only the head because Juggernaut likes to be led around. That guy and Bennu are on a whole 'nother level of deities which Apepi could only match by losing his mind.

Aco being vulnerable to a specific engineered rune weapon really doesn't matter here. All gods can be killed by rune weapons. Nothing in the FAQ implies an immunity, justa resistance.

The Tarnow Intelligence: imprisoned within a crystal gem that, while it is not indestructible, regenerates at an incredibly fast rate.
Moreover, the creature within is in such a strict prison that it is also compelled to do everything in its power to keep its prison safe!

So? Doesn't sound anything like a rune weapon.

Rifts: Atlantis Page 129 States that Gods, godlings, and Demon Lords are"typical power sources" for the most powerful Rune Weapons.
(The point being made here: Would anyone seriously try to put forth the argument that a type of being who can potentially be CONTAINED in one of these Weapons forever, couldn't also be AFFECTED by them in combat?)

Nobody's argued that rune weapons don't 'affect' them, just how easy it is to suck a soul.

Making rune weapons is a very complex time-consuming high-energy process, whereas souldrinking is instant. Souldrinking pretty much costs you nothing, so saying it should be doable simply because rune weapon creation is doesn't pan out to me.

Lord Koth: Vampire Intelligence who found out the hard way that his kind is no match for the Splugorth. Now imprisoned within a Greatest Rune Weapon for his insolence.

Who cares? According to the FAQ, vampire intelligences are outranked by demon lords, what a bunch of weaklings. It's no wonder they're the laughingstock of evil and get casually bonded to other beings to make Vald-Tegor or Kingu or whatever mad project's in the works.

How easy, or difficult, it might be for someone to actually be able to REACH and CAPTURE and RESTRAIN creatures of this power for the purpose of imprisoning them (let alone drink their souls) is a separate discussion, and not really germane to how possible it might be to take them down.

Parvati's entry in Pantheons of the Megaverse seems to imply that such beings of her power level have very, very, very high saves against the soul-drinking attack).

I can go check that out, worth posting a quote though.

Clearly if weaklings like vamp intelligences and ancient dragons get bonuses, the higher-tier guys who get multiple failures before they get sucked up would also get bonuses to.

Not that any of these creatures REALLY need additional bonuses though, seeing as how they all will have epic magic save bonuses already.

But to capture and steal the souls of major supernatural beings like gods, alien intelligences and ancient dragon gods with just one cut of a soul drinker rune weapon?

According to your FAQ entry, some alien intelligences (vampires), ancient dragons and lesser deities can all get taken out with a single shot, yup.

I dunno if there are any lesser ancient dragon gods though. Actually if you're a 'dragon god' is the 'ancient' really necessary at that point? Isn't it kinda implied unless you're that newborn wolf pup in D&G in the northern pantheon that you're probably 'ancient'?

it would be impossible for a mere mortal to use any normal rune weapon soul drinker and steal the soul of a god or even a godling with just one cut.

This is entirely possible with all godlings and with minor gods bro. DWI

one spell i dislike immensely is Desicate the supernatural. (that one is a rough one to overcome) I usually apply the same rules in that regard for greater beings (Nixla has 100+k MDC, but desicate will kill it in short order) seems kind of pointless to have a beastly awsome enemy just to have it 1 shot by a single player in the group.

Eh that's odd I don't recall that spell being very good, is it in FoM? Maybe I overlooked an aspect of it... will reread.

Conversion book one says that "A victem devoured by a rune weapon is forever lost". that implied to me that the soul is consumed--nothing left to use.

That's darn depressing, I always liked to think that the weapon just held onto it and stuff like how a Soul Harvester does and that if we could somehow destroy the rune weapon, all it's victims would also be free.

In the very least, if it can utterly annihilate souls, I think it should take some time rather than instant annihilation. Like maybe the amount of time that it takes for Cronus to destroy the people he eats?

This would also make full gods' souls immune to destruction by a rune weapon so they could always be free, much like gods who Cronus eats. Yay game balance.

it's fairly obvious that Rune Weapons have some requirements like rare components that not even the Splugorth can overcome, otherwise they would indeed have rune weapons in the hands of all their minions. Certainly finding worthy individuals to meet the requirements of a power source can't be easy

I honestly think that the whole 'worthy individual' requirement is the limiting factor moreso than whatever rare physical components the weapons are made out of.

There's also logistics issues: sure you can turn a bunch of loser human mages into 'lesser' rune weapons, but those aren't all that good and could be outclassed by a lot of the Splugorth's bio-wizardry weapons, so it might be more economic to just produce those.

2. They have no limit on how many souls they can steal
3. They basically have no official limit on what they CAN steal

Scary things like this exist in Palladium though. There's no limit to how much energy weapon MD a power leech can absorb. Nor how much PPE a Dream Ghoul can absorb. Nor how much negative chi you can infect someone with.

I am not too sure about other powerful weapons but I know for sure that no God or Alien Intelligence or even Ancient Dragons will ever have their souls stolen with just one cut of a soul drinker rune weapon.

You really gotta reread your FAQ and my analysis of it crystal. Ancient Dragons, Lesser Gods and Vampire Intelligences can clearly die from a single attack and only get some unknown bonus to the roll. Although these guys all have great magic saves so they'd probably make a lot of saves before failing.

How is it that you REPEATEDLY miss the Aco example

Aco's bane is not specified as being a soul-drinking rune weapon though, so it's kinda off-topic to this discussion. It could just be a weapon that does x100 damage to her alone, who knows.

i have to agree with crystaleye this time, last thing i need is a vagabond who happens to match the alignment of a rune weapon to just pick on up and kill Hercules while he is out fishing because he also happened to roll a nat 20 and herc rolls a 1 to save (i have seen this happen multiple times in similar situations)

You're worried without due cause. Let's look at what Herakles has going for him to prevent the natural 20 striking rune-vagabond nat 1 to save problem...

1. Herakles may not have sixth sense, but he's an experienced warrior and hunter, so he'll probably know you're coming, and he has a bow, so he's going to shoot you before you can run up to him and stab him with a rune weapon.
2. Herakles wears a lion fursuit that's immune to 'sharp weapons'. Good luck drawing his blood. The thing looks skimpy but it's not even given an AR, it's just assumed he'll block your attack with it.
3. In spite of his demigod background, Herakles is clearly no 'minor god', so it would take multiple soul-drinking attacks to take him out (we don't know how many). The 'minor deities' vulnerable to being 1-hit are those weak guys hiding in the back of Vampire Kingdoms who have less than 10K MDC.

[cornholioprime]

In regards to Aco, because she has a special vulnerability to rune weapons, maybe I would rule that she doesn't have the normal invulnerability against rune weapons possessed by other gods, alien intelligences and other major supernatural beings.

How about actually READING Aco's entry before you comment on it?
(That's page 98 of Dragons and Gods, by the way.)

She's not especially vulnerable to Rune Weapons, she knows that somewhere out there, one of her enemies made a Rune Weapon that's attuned especially to her.

Big difference.
Just because somebody designs a Syphon Filter virus especially tailored to people like me, doesn't necessarily make me or anybody like me more vulnerable to bio-engineered viruses than anybody else.

If someone can tell me where in rifters or conversion book one or any other book does it say that gods or dragons or alien intelligences have specific bonuses against soul drinking, that would be appreciated.

Why in the Nine Hells do you care what Canon References are presented to you, now or in the future?

Whatever you don't want to hear, you'll just House Rule it out anyway or at worst pretend that you were just looking for a House Ruling all along...so why don't you make up YOUR OWN special bonuses for those higher-powered beings right now and save all the rest of us the trouble of giving you information that you'll just dismiss out of hand if it tells you something unpleasant?

[V-Origin]

In regards to Aco, because she has a special vulnerability to rune weapons, maybe I would rule that she doesn't have the normal invulnerability against rune weapons possessed by other gods, alien intelligences and other major supernatural beings.

How about actually READING Aco's entry before you comment on it?
(That's page 98 of Dragons and Gods, by the way.)

She's not especially vulnerable to Rune Weapons, she knows that somewhere out there, one of her enemies made a Rune Weapon that's attuned especially to her.

Big difference.
Just because somebody designs a Syphon Filter virus especially tailored to people like me, doesn't necessarily make me or anybody like me more vulnerable to bio-engineered viruses than anybody else.

If someone can tell me where in rifters or conversion book one or any other book does it say that gods or dragons or alien intelligences have specific bonuses against soul drinking, that would be appreciated.

Why in the Nine Hells do you care what Canon References are presented to you, now or in the future?

Whatever you don't want to hear, you'll just House Rule it out anyway or at worst pretend that you were just looking for a House Ruling all along...so why don't you make up YOUR OWN special bonuses for those higher-powered beings right now and save all the rest of us the trouble of giving you information that you'll just dismiss out of hand if it tells you something unpleasant?

Even house rules need some basis in canon rules.

If you do not want to help out, that;s fine but kindly shelf that attitude.

[V-Origin]

If anyone knows where I can find some canon rules on Gods' and Alien Intelligences' bonuses to save vs soul drinking rune weapons, that would be great. I may or may not use them but they are always useful even if I work some house rules around them. Thanx

[V-Origin]

i have to agree with crystaleye this time, last thing i need is a vagabond who happens to match the alignment of a rune weapon to just pick on up and kill Hercules while he is out fishing because he also happened to roll a nat 20 and herc rolls a 1 to save


(i have seen this happen multiple times in similar situations)

Agree with you. I have no issues with Thor taking out Hercules with one blow but a mere mortal vagabond? Cmon I know Rifts is a munchkin game but even munchkinism need some semblance of reality to back it up.

[Hystrix]

i have to agree with crystaleye this time, last thing i need is a vagabond who happens to match the alignment of a rune weapon to just pick on up and kill Hercules while he is out fishing because he also happened to roll a nat 20 and herc rolls a 1 to save


(i have seen this happen multiple times in similar situations)

Yeah that it. It's a glitch in the rules. It has NOTHING to do with you ALLOWING a low level character to have a soul drinking rune weapon.

I'd say if the character was crafty enough to aquire said weapon, and legit played the battle well, and got really lucky...why not? That's not munchkin any more than a real life person winning the lottery. And that CAN happen so...

[Hystrix]

And I'll add if your characters have NO chance of beating <insert powerful being> then you shouldn't include said being as an encounter.

I'm all for high difficulty, but I've been in one sided "I'm the GM, I WIN" battles. They are only fun for the GM. No one else.

[cornholioprime]

Even house rules need some basis in canon rules.

If you do not want to help out, that;s fine but kindly shelf that attitude.

I noticed that you don't have anything to say about Aco, or even Lord Koth for that matter.

Nice dodge.

So the question is posed to you once again (albeit in a different fashion):

If Gods and even Alien Intelligences can be KILLED by Rune Weapons, and IMPRISONED within Rune Weapons, then by what logic do you continue to try and say that they cant be the victim of a Soul-Drinking attack from these artifacts and weapons as well??

[V-Origin]

Even house rules need some basis in canon rules.

If you do not want to help out, that;s fine but kindly shelf that attitude.

I noticed that you don't have anything to say about Aco, or even Lord Koth for that matter.

Nice dodge.

So the question is posed to you once again (albeit in a different fashion):

If Gods and even Alien Intelligences can be KILLED by Rune Weapons, and IMPRISONED within Rune Weapons, then by what logic do you continue to try and say that they cant be the victim of a Soul-Drinking attack from these artifacts and weapons as well??

Because I am trying to make the game less munch-kin friendly and thus restore a semblance of game balance in a setting where a Wilderness Scout actually thinks he can use a soul drinking rune weapon to defeat a God with just one blow.

My Dragon God does have a few rune weapons himself and he did use a few of these rune soul drinkers to defeat Gods and Alien Intelligences but he used these rune weapons in conjunction with his deific powers.. That is he is channeling his deific powers through the rune weapon or combining his deific powers with the rune weapon..

A God can take down another God anytime. But a Wilderness Scout will never have a prayer of even touching a God.

[Johnathan]

Alright, I'm going to make this attempt as simply as I can, in accordance with canon from the books... and here we go:
RIFTS Atlantis, Page 128 -

The drinking of souls is the actual absorption and improsnment of one's life essence. The victim's blood must be drawn by the weapon (cut) before the rune weapon can devour the life essence. This may be done slowly or in a spectacular flash. A victim devoured by a rune weapon is forever lost. Most soul drinkers are limited to a maximum of 1D6 souls per day. Vitctims of a soul drinking attack get to save vs magic, but must roll a 14 or higher. A successful save means the victim's essence is saved but suffers double damage (triple damage if a mega-damage creature). Even some deceptively simple or typical appearing run weapons are soul drinkers.

From PFRPG Main Book, Page 252

The drinking of souls is the actual absorption and imprisonment of one's life essence. The victim's blood must be drawn by the weapon (cut,stabbed or impaled) before the run weapon can devour the life essence. This may be done slowly or in a spectacular flash. A victim devoured by a rune weapon is forever lost. Most soul drinkers are limited to a maximum of 1D6 souls per day. Victims of a soul drinking attack get to save vs magic, but must roll a 14 or higher. A successful save means the victim's essence is saved but suffers double damage, triple damage if a creature of magic or a supernatural creature (or in RIFTS, a mega-damage creature).

Now, obviously there is very little amiguity between the two different 'verses about just WHAT a soul drinker rune weapon can do, what it takes to resist it and what the consequences are in regards to succeeding or failing on that save vs magic (14). However, also, in this same aspect, the build mentions NOTHING about just what beings are immune to the effects, if any. With that said, it could, most assuredly, go either way on the matter.

There is definitely something to take into account here as well. Beings such as Gods, Alien Intelligences, Supernatural Intelligences, Demon/Deevil Lords, Major Elementals, Dragons (Most likely Adult/Ancient-Level), and such... tend to have unusually high bonuses to save vs. magic. This would mean, even IF somebody were to attack them and draw their blood with a soul drinking rune weapon, more likely than not, their life essence would not be consumed due to their high resistence to magic.

However, there is always that 5% chance (The dreaded Natural 1), that could occur...

Is it possible for such beings to succumb to the effects of a soul drinker? I would say yes, it is definitely possible. I mean, if they have a +13 to save vs. magic (Not entirely THAT unreasonable considering the level of power we're talking here), then all they need to do is a roll a 2, and they succeed. That means they have a 95% chance of success (assuming a high enough save vs. magic bonus).

Is it probable? No. Not at all. It is extremely UNprobable that such beings would succumb to a soul sucking attack.

... Just sayin.

[Tor]

I have no issues with Thor taking out Hercules with one blow but a mere mortal vagabond? Cmon I know Rifts is a munchkin game but even munchkinism need some semblance of reality to back it up.

Considering that most vagabonds don't have soul-drinking rune weapons (a feature only Greatest ones have, very rare) and that the change of a vagabond rolling a natural 20 and Herakles rolling only 1 on his magic save are 1 in 400, it's really just not likely to happen.

On the rare occasion it does, it's not munchkin, it's basically one of those 'weaklings sneaks one in' moments which we all know from The Lord of the Rings when a bunch of hobbits actually matter.

BTW you should read my analysis of Herakles I replied to chronicle with. He could just shoot a vagabond, and Herakles' armor blocks stabbing attacks, so you'd need to disarm and disarmor Herakles before stealing his soul. It'd also take several hits since he's a major and not a lesser god.

I think that the rules as they are written make the most since. Trying to change the game to make the game more munchkin friendly seems... counter productive to me.

How does making gods and AIs and ancient dragons resistant to souldrinking attacks make the game more munchkin friendly?

Unless PCs are actually playing gods, this makes it harder to kill these big baddies by PCs who manage to get souldrinkers.

The only thing referenced thus far -regarding the OP and the material that was linked to, anyway -is the unofficial information from the FAQ/Cutting Room Floor.

Why would stuff posted on Palladium's web site's official FAQ and CRF be unofficial? Don't they use that stuff to supplement missing canonical errata?

I am trying to make the game less munch-kin friendly and thus restore a semblance of game balance in a setting where a Wilderness Scout actually thinks he can use a soul drinking rune weapon to defeat a God with just one blow.

My Dragon God does have a few rune weapons himself and he did use a few of these rune soul drinkers to defeat Gods and Alien Intelligences but he used these rune weapons in conjunction with his deific powers.. That is he is channeling his deific powers through the rune weapon or combining his deific powers with the rune weapon..

A God can take down another God anytime. But a Wilderness Scout will never have a prayer of even touching a God.

By the FAQ you posted, a wilderness scout can 1-hit a lesser god with a soul drinker. Accept it

Also: what makes a game 'more munchkin'? Playing a vulnerable wilderness scout with a snowball's chance in Dyval of taking down the big baddy, or playing a dragon god with deific powers who is pretty much guaranteed to succeed?

Giving weaklings a chance to beat big baddies is pretty much the opposite of munchkin. It's an odds-evener.

Vitctims of a soul drinking attack get to save vs magic, but must roll a 14 or higher.

Ah okay, for some reason I remembered 12, guess it's a bit harder than. Herakles only has +8 so he'd need to roll 6 or higher to resist soul-drinking. Still 75% odds though. That's discounting any possible charms he might carry.

the build mentions NOTHING about just what beings are immune to the effects, if any.

Yeah, but the FAQ supplements this. The GOO are immune, and everything else gets some bonuses or gets multiple savings throw rolls.

there is always that 5% chance (The dreaded Natural 1), that could occur...

Pretty sure that 'nat 1 = fail' is a house rule, I don't recall seeing it in any books.

if they have a +13 to save vs. magic (Not entirely THAT unreasonable considering the level of power we're talking here), then all they need to do is a roll a 2, and they succeed

Actually, someone with +13 to save or higher is immune to soul-drinking unless they somehow get their roll penalized, because '14 or higher' doesn't mean 'higher than 14'.

[cornholioprime]

Alright, I'm going to make this attempt as simply as I can, in accordance with canon from the books... and here we go:
RIFTS Atlantis, Page 128 -

The drinking of souls is the actual absorption and improsnment of one's life essence. The victim's blood must be drawn by the weapon (cut) before the rune weapon can devour the life essence. This may be done slowly or in a spectacular flash. A victim devoured by a rune weapon is forever lost. Most soul drinkers are limited to a maximum of 1D6 souls per day. Vitctims of a soul drinking attack get to save vs magic, but must roll a 14 or higher. A successful save means the victim's essence is saved but suffers double damage (triple damage if a mega-damage creature). Even some deceptively simple or typical appearing run weapons are soul drinkers.

From PFRPG Main Book, Page 252

The drinking of souls is the actual absorption and imprisonment of one's life essence. The victim's blood must be drawn by the weapon (cut,stabbed or impaled) before the run weapon can devour the life essence. This may be done slowly or in a spectacular flash. A victim devoured by a rune weapon is forever lost. Most soul drinkers are limited to a maximum of 1D6 souls per day. Victims of a soul drinking attack get to save vs magic, but must roll a 14 or higher. A successful save means the victim's essence is saved but suffers double damage, triple damage if a creature of magic or a supernatural creature (or in RIFTS, a mega-damage creature).

Now, obviously there is very little amiguity between the two different 'verses about just WHAT a soul drinker rune weapon can do, what it takes to resist it and what the consequences are in regards to succeeding or failing on that save vs magic (14). However, also, in this same aspect, the build mentions NOTHING about just what beings are immune to the effects, if any. With that said, it could, most assuredly, go either way on the matter.

There is definitely something to take into account here as well. Beings such as Gods, Alien Intelligences, Supernatural Intelligences, Demon/Deevil Lords, Major Elementals, Dragons (Most likely Adult/Ancient-Level), and such... tend to have unusually high bonuses to save vs. magic. This would mean, even IF somebody were to attack them and draw their blood with a soul drinking rune weapon, more likely than not, their life essence would not be consumed due to their high resistence to magic.

However, there is always that 5% chance (The dreaded Natural 1), that could occur...

Is it possible for such beings to succumb to the effects of a soul drinker? I would say yes, it is definitely possible. I mean, if they have a +13 to save vs. magic (Not entirely THAT unreasonable considering the level of power we're talking here), then all they need to do is a roll a 2, and they succeed. That means they have a 95% chance of success (assuming a high enough save vs. magic bonus).

Is it probable? No. Not at all. It is extremely UNprobable that such beings would succumb to a soul sucking attack.

... Just sayin.

Agreed.

Again, to go to a canon example, the goddess Parvati was attacked by MULTIPLE Splugorth Conservators at the same time, all wielding Rune Swords, and yet she didn't get "soul-drunk."

The gods and other higher-powered beings of the Palladium Megaverse routinely employ advanced magics and capabilities that aren't statted out in the Books, and it's just as probable to say that they have in place various, undefined protections against soul-drinking attack as well.

Not enough of a protection to make these being absolutely impervious to the effect, as the examples of Lord Koth, the section on Rune Weapons in Rifts: Atlantis, and the Tarnow Intelligence indirectly illustrate, but close enough, or so it seems.

[Johnathan]

I have no issues with Thor taking out Hercules with one blow but a mere mortal vagabond? Cmon I know Rifts is a munchkin game but even munchkinism need some semblance of reality to back it up.

Considering that most vagabonds don't have soul-drinking rune weapons (a feature only Greatest ones have, very rare) and that the change of a vagabond rolling a natural 20 and Herakles rolling only 1 on his magic save are 1 in 400, it's really just not likely to happen.

On the rare occasion it does, it's not munchkin, it's basically one of those 'weaklings sneaks one in' moments which we all know from The Lord of the Rings when a bunch of hobbits actually matter.

BTW you should read my analysis of Herakles I replied to chronicle with. He could just shoot a vagabond, and Herakles' armor blocks stabbing attacks, so you'd need to disarm and disarmor Herakles before stealing his soul. It'd also take several hits since he's a major and not a lesser god.

I think that the rules as they are written make the most since. Trying to change the game to make the game more munchkin friendly seems... counter productive to me.

How does making gods and AIs and ancient dragons resistant to souldrinking attacks make the game more munchkin friendly?

Unless PCs are actually playing gods, this makes it harder to kill these big baddies by PCs who manage to get souldrinkers.

The only thing referenced thus far -regarding the OP and the material that was linked to, anyway -is the unofficial information from the FAQ/Cutting Room Floor.

Why would stuff posted on Palladium's web site's official FAQ and CRF be unofficial? Don't they use that stuff to supplement missing canonical errata?

I am trying to make the game less munch-kin friendly and thus restore a semblance of game balance in a setting where a Wilderness Scout actually thinks he can use a soul drinking rune weapon to defeat a God with just one blow.

My Dragon God does have a few rune weapons himself and he did use a few of these rune soul drinkers to defeat Gods and Alien Intelligences but he used these rune weapons in conjunction with his deific powers.. That is he is channeling his deific powers through the rune weapon or combining his deific powers with the rune weapon..

A God can take down another God anytime. But a Wilderness Scout will never have a prayer of even touching a God.

By the FAQ you posted, a wilderness scout can 1-hit a lesser god with a soul drinker. Accept it

Also: what makes a game 'more munchkin'? Playing a vulnerable wilderness scout with a snowball's chance in Dyval of taking down the big baddy, or playing a dragon god with deific powers who is pretty much guaranteed to succeed?

Giving weaklings a chance to beat big baddies is pretty much the opposite of munchkin. It's an odds-evener.

Vitctims of a soul drinking attack get to save vs magic, but must roll a 14 or higher.

Ah okay, for some reason I remembered 12, guess it's a bit harder than. Herakles only has +8 so he'd need to roll 6 or higher to resist soul-drinking. Still 75% odds though. That's discounting any possible charms he might carry.

the build mentions NOTHING about just what beings are immune to the effects, if any.

Yeah, but the FAQ supplements this. The GOO are immune, and everything else gets some bonuses or gets multiple savings throw rolls.

there is always that 5% chance (The dreaded Natural 1), that could occur...

Pretty sure that 'nat 1 = fail' is a house rule, I don't recall seeing it in any books.

if they have a +13 to save vs. magic (Not entirely THAT unreasonable considering the level of power we're talking here), then all they need to do is a roll a 2, and they succeed

Actually, someone with +13 to save or higher is immune to soul-drinking unless they somehow get their roll penalized, because '14 or higher' doesn't mean 'higher than 14'.

In regards to this:

Pretty sure that 'nat 1= fail' is a house rule, I don't recall seeing it in any books.

I present to you this:
Rifts: Ultimate Edition, Page 346

Miss: a roll of 1-4 to strike (after bonuses) is always a miss.
A roll of one always misses regardless of bonuses

[Tor]

the goddess Parvati was attacked by MULTIPLE Splugorth Conservators at the same time, all wielding Rune Swords, and yet she didn't get "soul-drunk."

Why would you equip a lowly Conservator with a GREATEST rune weapon? Did it say that? Only the rare Greatest can souldrink.

Odds are that they probably just had lesser/greater rune weapons.

I forget where this was written, was it the part where the fire guy rescued her and she fell for him? I don't recall rune weapons mentioned...

The gods and other higher-powered beings of the Palladium Megaverse routinely employ advanced magics and capabilities that aren't statted out in the Books, and it's just as probable to say that they have in place various, undefined protections against soul-drinking attack as well.

You mean like Armor of Ithan? Or all the armor a lot of gods will wear into combat? Yup. They're not exactly undefined defenses.

Heck being that you need to 'draw blood' to souldrink, I'm not even sure all gods HAVE blood. Cronus oozes a black ichor-like substance from wounds, for example, so he might be immune to it.

ALSO MACHINE PEOPLE (do they even have souls?)

Oddly enough, while Pantheons is full of cool unique Rune Weapons, the only actual Souldrinkers I recall seeing were the Impalers that Hades and another guy or two had.

Not enough of a protection to make these being absolutely impervious to the effect, as the examples of Lord Koth, the section on Rune Weapons in Rifts: Atlantis, and the Tarnow Intelligence indirectly illustrate, but close enough, or so it seems.

Souldrinking and being trapped inside a rune weapon as it's being created as a fuel source are entirely unrelated processes and the Tarnow Crystal isn't even a rune item, it shares more in common with the Ultimax Deathstone in the Tombs of Gersidi.

Miss: a roll of 1-4 to strike (after bonuses) is always a miss. A roll of one always misses regardless of bonuses

Yay, new RUEles. That's just strike rolls though. Doesn't say anything about defensive rolls like parries, dodges or savings throws.

[cornholioprime]

The gods and other higher-powered beings of the Palladium Megaverse routinely employ advanced magics and capabilities that aren't statted out in the Books, and it's just as probable to say that they have in place various, undefined protections against soul-drinking attack as well.

You mean like Armor of Ithan? Or all the armor a lot of gods will wear into combat? Yup. They're not exactly undefined defenses.

Gods and other high-powered beings in Palladium do all sorts of un-statted stuff all the time (e.g., opening Rifts 10 miles across to poke an eye out, working the Mortification in the Land of the Damned, creating a new host body out of the mindless carcass of a Metzla, etc.).

Heck being that you need to 'draw blood' to souldrink, I'm not even sure all gods HAVE blood. Cronus oozes a black ichor-like substance from wounds, for example, so he might be immune to it.

This question is, as yet, undefined officially.

ALSO MACHINE PEOPLE (do they even have souls?)

What do they have to do with anything?

They're not even alive and don't have souls.

Not enough of a protection to make these being absolutely impervious to the effect, as the examples of Lord Koth, the section on Rune Weapons in Rifts: Atlantis, and the Tarnow Intelligence indirectly illustrate, but close enough, or so it seems.

Souldrinking and being trapped inside a rune weapon as it's being created as a fuel source are entirely unrelated processes and the Tarnow Crystal isn't even a rune item, it shares more in common with the Ultimax Deathstone in the Tombs of Gersidi.

The point being made here is that if you can suck a soul of a greater being into a Rune Weapon by one means, or imprison it in same, then what train of logic says that you can't do it by other means such as Soul-Drinking?

In other words, their essences apparently aren't immune to being ripped from their bodies by whatever means -whether we as Players think of the possibility as being "munchkin" or not.

EDIT: Also, both Greatest AND Greater Rune Weapons have the potential to be Soul-Drinkers.

[Nightmask]

The gods and other higher-powered beings of the Palladium Megaverse routinely employ advanced magics and capabilities that aren't statted out in the Books, and it's just as probable to say that they have in place various, undefined protections against soul-drinking attack as well.

You mean like Armor of Ithan? Or all the armor a lot of gods will wear into combat? Yup. They're not exactly undefined defenses.

Gods and other high-powered beings in Palladium do all sorts of un-statted stuff all the time (e.g., opening Rifts 10 miles across to poke an eye out, working the Mortification in the Land of the Damned, creating a new host body out of the mindless carcass of a Metzla, etc.).

Well to be fair no one knows what that was (and it didn't open the hole the Invidians did), so we've just never been given any idea as to what its species is or what powers they have. Presumably if we were given stats it would include the known abilities like casting species-wide curses beyond mortal magic to cure.

Not enough of a protection to make these being absolutely impervious to the effect, as the examples of Lord Koth, the section on Rune Weapons in Rifts: Atlantis, and the Tarnow Intelligence indirectly illustrate, but close enough, or so it seems.

Souldrinking and being trapped inside a rune weapon as it's being created as a fuel source are entirely unrelated processes and the Tarnow Crystal isn't even a rune item, it shares more in common with the Ultimax Deathstone in the Tombs of Gersidi.

The point being made here is that if you can suck a soul of a greater being into a Rune Weapon by one means, or imprison it in same, then what train of logic says that you can't do it by other means such as Soul-Drinking?

In other words, their essences apparently aren't immune to being ripped from their bodies by whatever means -whether we as Players think of the possibility as being "munchkin" or not.

EDIT: Also, both Greatest AND Greater Rune Weapons have the potential to be Soul-Drinkers.

Given the way things are the idea of someone building an 'empty' rune weapon that empowers itself by soul drinking its target into itself isn't that difficult to believe. Wouldn't be the first time in storytelling where we've seen such occur.

[Eclipse]

Well, I'd probably house rule (having read most of those books quite a while back) that Gods and alien intelligences don't have 'conventional' or similar 'sized' souls to mortals, being '(PPE)-inflated' by the worship or mortals by the former or by their capability to split their essences and send them to different dimensions for the latter. Obviously mortals and lesser supernatural creatures would be sucked up by any soul drinker no questions asked.

Since it's the creature who's soul has been captured in the weapon who's doing the soul consumption, I'd rule that it couldn't devour a being of greater power than it used to be/is (within the sword), although maybe it'd do extra damage to the MDC, or interrupt deific powers for instance, during/for some period after the attempted soul drinking.

Beings of equal power - ie an average alien intelligence in the sword trying to consume a deity (with plenty of worshippers) might be able to consume it's soul on a death blow during a ceremony designed for that purpose (preventing reformation of the deity as per Dragons and Gods book).

And finally, I'd say that that alien intelligence/deity-powered weapon would be able to consume the soul of an elder dragon, godling or major demon (all lesser creatures to it) on a death blow (or perhaps, not with a death blow but a called shot and a failed saving throw) under normal circumstances.

It'd be up to the GM to decide if the power of the wielder played any role in the soul drinking..

I wasn't a fan of the massive rune weapon inflation as of Rifts: Atlantis where every bloody major minion of Splynncryth was rocking around with a greater or greatest rune weapon. And I think there were hundreds or thousands of those guys..

[Tor]

Gods and other high-powered beings in Palladium do all sorts of un-statted stuff all the time (e.g., opening Rifts 10 miles across to poke an eye out

That's not utterly un-statted, it'd be covered by the unique deific power that Styphon has. Guess he's not the only one. Actually... has the Dimensional Portal spell ever specified what the limits are on its dimensions?

working the Mortification in the Land of the Damned

Can't comment, still need this book.

creating a new host body out of the mindless carcass of a Metzla, etc.)

Pretty sure some necromancy spells would cover this. There's a spell in TTGD that lets you inhabit another's skin. Not sure if Metzla have skin but I'm sure the Norse Hel could create a spell variant in TTGD for it with an extended duration for her plans.

This question is, as yet, undefined officially.

How so? If the requirement of souldrinking is to draw blood, you must have blood for it to work. Can't draw what isn't there.

What do they have to do with anything? They're not even alive and don't have souls.

You don't have to be alive to have a soul It occured to me that these guys are awesome and anyone inhabiting a body like that would lack blood and be immune to blooddrinking.

To use an example of beings who might have souls: Elementals do not have blood to draw, so they'd be immune. Although... Elementals CAN possess mortals sometimes. But I think if you used a souldrinker on a possessed mortal it would result in that mortal's soul getting stolen, not a possessing elemental... though I'm not really sure.

The point being made here is that if you can suck a soul of a greater being into a Rune Weapon by one means, or imprison it in same, then what train of logic says that you can't do it by other means such as Soul-Drinking?

I'm not actually making the argument that these beings would be immune (the only ones immune are the GOO). Presumably soul-drinking works on anything with blood to bleed who can fail that savings throw. A Nightbane using Anti-Arcane would be immune to souldrinking during that time, for example. As would anyone with a total bonus vs magic of 13 or higher. Unless there's some unique souldrinker out there with a higher throw req.

That said: no, I don't think that if it's possible to make a rune weapon out of you that it automatically means you can be souldrunk. They are completely different processes.

To use Psyscape as an example: psychics can't be the victims of the Harvester's ritual, they can't have their souls stolen that way. But Nxla's fragments can steal the souls of psychics. On the flip-side, demons are immune to having their soul stolen by Nxla's fragments, but demons who lack psychic abilities CAN have their soul stolen by a Soul Harvester.

In the case of this issue, a Soul-Harvesting attack is of a different nature, through a different means. Those trapped in rune weapons are not trapped there by a rune weapon, because it's not a rune weapon until the soul is actually in there, since that's what powers it.

EDIT: Also, both Greatest AND Greater Rune Weapons have the potential to be Soul-Drinkers.

Ah okay, my mistake. There's still probably a lot more lessers than greaters/greatests combined though, so I still don't think a lot of Conservators would even have Greater ones.

[cornholioprime]

Warlord Romanov's Soul-Drinking Dagger in the Rifts: Warlords of Russia Book seemingly lends further credence to those of us who believe that even Gods and Demon Lords are potentially vulnerable to Soul Drinking Attacks.

And while there appears to be some sort of undefined, unstated "tremendous bonus to save" that isn't available to lesser beings, the evidence collected thus far seems to indicate that even higher-powered beings aren't officially, absolutely immune to the effect.

[Tor]

Has Romanov used it against a demon lord or something? I just packed WoR away...

[cornholioprime]

Has Romanov used it against a demon lord or something? I just packed WoR away...

No.

She has not, yet.

However, this capability is specifically designed in the weapon's list of abilities (although it is only able to drink from evil beings).

[cornholioprime]

Out of curiosity, where did you get that the soul drinking ability of rune weapons is what's used to aquire souls to make more rune weapons? Conversion book one says that "A victem devoured by a rune weapon is forever lost". that implied to me that the soul is consumed--nothing left to use. and that getting a soul for a rune weapon required some kind of sacraficial ritual.

I agree there has to be some limit or else the splurgorth would have every Kydian weilding a rune weapon and that's clearly not the case, but I had also gotten the impression that soul drinking was permanent--the only way to free a soul inside the weapon would be to find a way to destroy it before the soul is consumed utterly.

Armageddon unlimited makes it clear how soul drinking works, and how the gods of light can restore and recover lost souls. Sure it's a Change from the past, but it's one important one.
in short, Most creatures get a huge save versus soul Drinking, And many will be completely immune to it, Such as any pantheon or god in charge of soul transport.

What he means to say, Nekira and others, is that there is a "new" weapon out there, created by the forces of Light, called a Soul Saver -and right now, it is the only known way to get a soul back out of a Rune Weapon that has one in it.

(This weapon can even restore the person to life -provided the body hasn't been "soulless" for too long.)

But getting back to the other part of his Post (the last sentence), I don't know where he got the information that he is running with, apart from the blurb in the OP that linked to the already-discredited-as-a-Canon-source Cutting Room Floor/FAQ.

[eliakon]

Has Romanov used it against a demon lord or something? I just packed WoR away...

No.

She has not, yet.

However, this capability is specifically designed in the weapon's list of abilities (although it is only able to drink from evil beings).

Question here for clarification, is it ALL drinkers, or just this one? Eg is it possible that hers was desinged with the LX package and besides the calf skin grip, and heated pomel she got the 'drinks gods' upgrade?

[cornholioprime]

Has Romanov used it against a demon lord or something? I just packed WoR away...

No.

She has not, yet.

However, this capability is specifically designed in the weapon's list of abilities (although it is only able to drink from evil beings).

Question here for clarification, is it ALL drinkers, or just this one? Eg is it possible that hers was desinged with the LX package and besides the calf skin grip, and heated pomel she got the 'drinks gods' upgrade?

Her Rune Dagger seems to be one-of-a-kind ONLY in that it can only drink the souls of Supernatural Evil beings (a one-of-a-kind property in its own right, and something I've personally not seen before or since). Otherwise it seems to be "normal."

[eliakon]

Has Romanov used it against a demon lord or something? I just packed WoR away...

No.

She has not, yet.

However, this capability is specifically designed in the weapon's list of abilities (although it is only able to drink from evil beings).

Question here for clarification, is it ALL drinkers, or just this one? Eg is it possible that hers was desinged with the LX package and besides the calf skin grip, and heated pomel she got the 'drinks gods' upgrade?

Her Rune Dagger seems to be one-of-a-kind ONLY in that it can only drink the souls of Supernatural Evil beings (a one-of-a-kind property in its own right, and something I've personally not seen before or since). Otherwise it seems to be "normal."

So it has a unique form of soul drinking which would then mean its a bad example, since its an orange in an apple discussion. And does it specifically allow demon lords or gods? just saying supernatural evil doesnt mean it can do that. A broadkill is supernatural evil after all

[cornholioprime]

Has Romanov used it against a demon lord or something? I just packed WoR away...

No.

She has not, yet.

However, this capability is specifically designed in the weapon's list of abilities (although it is only able to drink from evil beings).

Question here for clarification, is it ALL drinkers, or just this one? Eg is it possible that hers was desinged with the LX package and besides the calf skin grip, and heated pomel she got the 'drinks gods' upgrade?

Her Rune Dagger seems to be one-of-a-kind ONLY in that it can only drink the souls of Supernatural Evil beings (a one-of-a-kind property in its own right, and something I've personally not seen before or since). Otherwise it seems to be "normal."

So it has a unique form of soul drinking which would then mean its a bad example, since its an orange in an apple discussion. And does it specifically allow demon lords or gods? just saying supernatural evil doesnt mean it can do that. A broadkill is supernatural evil after all

That it only drinks the souls of evil beings doesn't make that particular weapon an "apples and oranges comparison" to other Rune Weapons.

And to answer your second question, it doesn't specifically have the phrase "demon lords" in it's description (it uses the term 'Greater Demon'); but I included Romanov's weapon as an example anyway because the only thing essentially separating a Greater Demon from being a Demon Lord is the "assent" of one of the existing Lords of Hades/Dyval in addition to a certain, undefined number of worshipers...or, of course, said infernal "promoting" himself by taking out the guy above him (see the Rifts Dimension Books regarding Hades and Dyval).

As the Dragons and Gods Book makes pretty clear, Greater Demons/Demon Lords rival the Gods themselves in overall terms of power and durability, even Demon Princes and Deevil Regents (Greater Infernals on their way up the food chain) can have worshipers, and any and all of the beings listed above can even make use of Deific Powers.*

So we're not really talking about "apples and oranges" after all, since the opinion as stated in the OP was that beings of a certain power level are immune to soul drinking.


*In absolute terms, the only real distinctions between True Palladium Gods and other beings of equal and greater power are:

A]] True Palladium Gods can alter their Primal Manifestation to such an extent that they can mate with and produce viable offspring with just about any species in the Megaverse, whether Supernatural or Mortal;

and

B]] True Palladium Gods can be resurrected, apparently without limit, as long as special magics aren't used to prevent them from coming back (e.g., the example of Osiris), and as long as either the god's worshipers or the rest of his pantheon wants him back.

[Tor]

Armageddon unlimited makes it clear how soul drinking works, and how the gods of light can restore and recover lost souls.

Wouldn't that require destroying the rune weapon first? Are you sure that this isn't just for the new ability?

in short, Most creatures get a huge save versus soul Drinking

Most very powerful ones maybe, but most creatures (weaklings), nope.

And many will be completely immune to it, Such as any pantheon or god in charge of soul transport.

The only god in charge of Soul Transport is Utu and there's no indication that he's immune to it, only the GOO.

Her Rune Dagger seems to be one-of-a-kind ONLY in that it can only drink the souls of Supernatural Evil beings (a one-of-a-kind property in its own right, and something I've personally not seen before or since). Otherwise it seems to be "normal."

Considering that a rune weapon must presumably consent to drink a soul for it to happen, I imagine a lot of rune weapons are picky about who they will soulsuck for their master.

it doesn't specifically have the phrase "demon lords" in it's description (it uses the term 'Greater Demon'); but I included Romanov's weapon as an example anyway because the only thing essentially separating a Greater Demon from being a Demon Lord is the "assent" of one of the existing Lords of Hades/Dyval in addition to a certain, undefined number of worshipers...or, of course, said infernal "promoting" himself by taking out the guy above him (see the Rifts Dimension Books regarding Hades and Dyval).

Greater Demon and Demon Lord aren't even close to synonyms. The argument about them rising to god-status is irrelevant. Mortals can also do that.

As the Dragons and Gods Book makes pretty clear, Greater Demons/Demon Lords rival the Gods themselves in overall terms of power and durability

No, it only makes this clear about Deevil/Demon Lords, not Greater Deevils/Demons.

even Demon Princes and Deevil Regents (Greater Infernals on their way up the food chain) can have worshipers, and any and all of the beings listed above can even make use of Deific Powers.*

I've read Dyval, I haven't seen any evidence that Regents are able to use Deific Powers. Only Lords get a couple deific abilities to start.

In absolute terms, the only real distinctions between True Palladium Gods and other beings of equal and greater power are:

A]] True Palladium Gods can alter their Primal Manifestation to such an extent that they can mate with and produce viable offspring with just about any species in the Megaverse, whether Supernatural or Mortal;

and

B]] True Palladium Gods can be resurrected, apparently without limit, as long as special magics aren't used to prevent them from coming back (e.g., the example of Osiris), and as long as either the god's worshipers or the rest of his pantheon wants him back.[/size]

These powers apply to Deevil/Demon Lords as well. Though the weaker ones who have to pay double will have a hard time with it.

[Eclipse]

Hmm.. I like the idea of a soul drinker disrupting an AI's dimensional link and dissipating the local essence fragment. Of course if they've got a witch still in that dimension it can be reestablished fairly easily in time.

[Tor]

Most reasons you can't soul drink a god, They do not send their full manifestation when dealing with mortals.

That only applies to ones who use the deific ability to Manifest, and I think that's only limited to 2. Though the Deevil Lords can do a lot more than that (and better to boot). Gods aren't as good at this as a lot of AIs.

Same reason you can't souldrink Vampires, Essence fragments, or splintered (whatever), or Anything That isn't Alive and or Ethereal.

Why can't you drink an essence fragment? I don't think anyone is going to argue that stabbing a vampire with a rune weaopn will suck in the whole Vampire Intelligence but I think it should at least eat that fragment.