Supernatural Strength

[Killer Cyborg]

as i have pointed out before in these discussions, prior to 1995, MD weapons stacked.

If you know of any place in the books that stated that as an outright RULE, by all means post it.
If you're just going off of the assumption "since Gargoyle weapons worked that way, all weapons must work that way" or similar logic, then I'm going to have to disagree.

[Nightmask]

Well if you do use it then you should also use the rule that says that if a weapon attack deals 3x its max damage it risks being broken.

I think people see that rule in the book and assume it's for all weapons when it's likely just for SDC weapons. Weapons like Vibro-Swords, TW Flaming Swords, Rune Swords, etc are obviously a different matter than using a regular SDC weapon. They're made of MDC materials and themselves deal mega-damage.

(( For reference I thought we were talking about ANY weapon.. from a thrown pebble, to a stick to a 2X4, to baseball bat to normal melee sword. I didn't realize people were meaning Mjolnir. ))

You're the one who used Superman and a 2x4 as a reference. And no, we're not talking about "any" weapon. There's an ENORMOUS difference between an MD weapon and a SDC weapon, and it's disingenuous on your part to conflate weapons which can hurt mega-damage beings like Dragons, Gargoyles, and Cyborgs to something as feeble as a 2x4.

We're talking about MD weapons like Vibro-Swords, TW swords, magic swords, and so on. They're not at all comparable to a wooden plank. And in their case, yes, it IS reasonable that a supernatural being wielding one of them would inflict more damage than a supernatural being who's fighting bare-handed.

Plus Ironwood can turn a 2x4 into a mega-damage material which means it could inflict mega-damage in the right hands. The only reason it might not add is because it would be fairly low MDC unlike nigh-indestructible magic items which can handle all the stresses even a hundred-handed can put on them without suffering damage or failing to enhance the damage of their wielder.

Ironwood is only MDC if you melt it down and do the ritual though, right? People act like there's MDC sticks and twigs in the forest. I seem to remember it's not like that?

I thinks theres MDC trees in Hades, not really important but I just like to contribute.

I'd have to wonder how you melt down a stick of wood to enchant it, particularly when the Ironwood spell is quite clear that you cast it on a stick of wood and it turns it into an MDC item while still retaining the other properties of wood.

On the point of mega-damage plants, Biomancers have a ritual spell that can temporarily or permanently transform living plants into MDC structures (grass is noted to be like walking on nails afterwards ), but it only applies while it's alive. They explicitly note how anyone who eventually cuts a tree down hoping to exploit it as an MDC building material will be sorely disappointed as it will revert to SDC once dead.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'd have to wonder how you melt down a stick of wood to enchant it, particularly when the Ironwood spell is quite clear that you cast it on a stick of wood and it turns it into an MDC item while still retaining the other properties of wood.

On the point of mega-damage plants, Biomancers have a ritual spell that can temporarily or permanently transform living plants into MDC structures (grass is noted to be like walking on nails afterwards ), but it only applies while it's alive. They explicitly note how anyone who eventually cuts a tree down hoping to exploit it as an MDC building material will be sorely disappointed as it will revert to SDC once dead.

you don't have to wonder. It was explained 7 posts ago.

[Cyber-Knight]

We're talking about MD weapons like Vibro-Swords, TW swords, magic swords, and so on. They're not at all comparable to a wooden plank.

Agreed.
Which is why it's absurd to say, "I do more damage with a wooden plank than I do with my bare hands, therefore a supernatural creature would do more damage with a MD melee weapon than with his/her/its bare hands."
It is simply not comparable, as you point out.

Talk about missing the point. I said it's not comparable because one item is an SDC dealing weapon which is as flimsy as tissue paper in the hands of someone with supernatural strength versus a weapon made of MDC materials which itself inflicts mega-damage.

As for the second point, not comparable how? You're so strong that you inflict mega-damage, you're holding a weapon which inflicts mega-damage, how does it not make sense for that being to inflict more damage with that weapon than someone who's as strong as he but striking barehanded? Are you seriously trying to sit there with a straight face and claim that that argument makes no sense whatsoever? That the Demigod with the magic sword SHOULDN'T deal more damage than the Demigod striking barehanded? That the True Atlantean Undead Slayer with his Flaming Sword shouldn't deal more damage than the True Atlantean Undead Slayer fighting barehanded? That the Cosmo-Knight wielding a Rune Sword which deals 1d6x10 MD shouldn't deal equal damage to the Cosmo-Knight wielding a Cosmic Weapon which also does 1d6x10 MD? Is that your position, that none of that makes sense?

[Killer Cyborg]

We're talking about MD weapons like Vibro-Swords, TW swords, magic swords, and so on. They're not at all comparable to a wooden plank.

Agreed.
Which is why it's absurd to say, "I do more damage with a wooden plank than I do with my bare hands, therefore a supernatural creature would do more damage with a MD melee weapon than with his/her/its bare hands."
It is simply not comparable, as you point out.

Talk about missing the point.

I can, if you'd really like.

I said it's not comparable because one item is an SDC dealing weapon which is as flimsy as tissue paper in the hands of someone with supernatural strength versus a weapon made of MDC materials which itself inflicts mega-damage.

Yes, you did.
But that's not the real reason why it's not comparable. It's not comparable because the power level is so different, and the damage sources so varied, that assuming that those weapons work the same way that mundane objects work is a pretty big leap in logic.

As for the second point, not comparable how?

For one thing, due to the nature of the weapons.
A vibro-blade is essentially a contained particle-field by some descriptions, in which case the force you swing it with doesn't real matter any more than it would matter when you're firing a particle beam weapon.
Magic weapons (TW or otherwise) inflict mega-damage for any number of reasons, any number of which might well not be affected by additional physical force. The damage of magical weapons is never listed, but is most logically assumed to be a specific magical effect that occurs regardless of the force applied.

You're so strong that you inflict mega-damage,

No, you're not.
As I've already demonstrated, the mega-damage inflicted by Supernatural PS is definitely NOT inflicted because the supernatural creature is THAT strong.
Did you miss my example comparing the punch damage from a normal human to the punch damage of a Supernatural creature of equal strength to the human?

...you're holding a weapon which inflicts mega-damage, how does it not make sense for that being to inflict more damage with that weapon than someone who's as strong as he but striking barehanded?

Because, as pointed out, that someone is not really THAT strong.
Also, because weapons don't necessarily matter with that kind of force. A LAW rocket first at a tank is going to inflict the same damage no matter how much force is behind it, as long as the force is sufficient to trigger detonation.

Are you seriously trying to sit there with a straight face and claim that that argument makes no sense whatsoever?

Yes.
I'll break it down for you:
-Your argument (that the stronger the wielder of a melee weapon is, the more damage they inflict, assuming that the relative forces in question are roughly equal) is based on the laws of physics.
-Supernatural Strength defies the laws of physics. (RUE, p. 285)
Therefore, the basis for your argument is something that does not apply to Supernatural Strength.

That the Demigod with the magic sword SHOULDN'T deal more damage than the Demigod striking barehanded?

Right.
Because (in addition to the above reasons) you're effectively dealing with two different magical weapons:
1. The Supernatural Punch of a Demi-God.
2. A Supernatural Sword.

Weapon damages don't stack like you want. If you tape a dagger (1d6 damage) onto the end of your sword (2d4 damage), that doesn't mean that your weapon now deals the combined damage of both (1d6+2d4 damage).
If you put a dagger (1d6 damage) in the fist (1d4 damage) of a normal person, that doesn't mean that the dagger inflicts 1d6+1d4 damage.
Weapon damage is inclusive of the muscle strength of the wielder, except for the listed PS damage bonuses.
The damages of different muscle-based weapons overlaps; it doesn't stack.

That the True Atlantean Undead Slayer with his Flaming Sword shouldn't deal more damage than the True Atlantean Undead Slayer fighting barehanded?

That would depend on their physical strength.
Also, it would depend on if you're talking about an actual Flaming Sword, in which case the blade is flame, so physical force wouldn't matter at all, or whether you're talking about a tattoo-summoned "Weapon
Covered In Flames," in which case there's a physical core.
In either case, though, the official rule of "use whichever weapon (punch or melee weapon) inflicts more damage" makes more sense than stacking both of them.

That the Cosmo-Knight wielding a Rune Sword which deals 1d6x10 MD shouldn't deal equal damage to the Cosmo-Knight wielding a Cosmic Weapon which also does 1d6x10 MD?

You lost me there. You're comparing two Cosmo-Knights with weapons that inflict the same damage.
Why wouldn't they inflict the same damage?
Keep in mind, it's been a while since I've read up on Cosmo-Knights....

[Nether]

We're talking about MD weapons like Vibro-Swords, TW swords, magic swords, and so on. They're not at all comparable to a wooden plank.

Agreed.
Which is why it's absurd to say, "I do more damage with a wooden plank than I do with my bare hands, therefore a supernatural creature would do more damage with a MD melee weapon than with his/her/its bare hands."
It is simply not comparable, as you point out.

Talk about missing the point. I said it's not comparable because one item is an SDC dealing weapon which is as flimsy as tissue paper in the hands of someone with supernatural strength versus a weapon made of MDC materials which itself inflicts mega-damage.

As for the second point, not comparable how? You're so strong that you inflict mega-damage, you're holding a weapon which inflicts mega-damage, how does it not make sense for that being to inflict more damage with that weapon than someone who's as strong as he but striking barehanded? Are you seriously trying to sit there with a straight face and claim that that argument makes no sense whatsoever? That the Demigod with the magic sword SHOULDN'T deal more damage than the Demigod striking barehanded? That the True Atlantean Undead Slayer with his Flaming Sword shouldn't deal more damage than the True Atlantean Undead Slayer fighting barehanded? That the Cosmo-Knight wielding a Rune Sword which deals 1d6x10 MD shouldn't deal equal damage to the Cosmo-Knight wielding a Cosmic Weapon which also does 1d6x10 MD? Is that your position, that none of that makes sense?

Just wanted to add to what you said Cyber, in terms of game system rules I find it very hypocritical that sdc person gets to add his str boost to weapons when a SN Str person does not get a boost to the MD weapon he is using.

There is no difference here from magic/tech ext, as MD is literally just a multiplier 1:100 ratio compared to SDC.

And even though the various Str charts for what you can lift carry make no sense between the various types of strengths, it should affect the standard way of doing things. Part of the problem, is they have multiple rules, and closest thing to a standard is stacking str and wep.

SDC: sdc person adds his str bonus to weapons
Robotic: stack his str damage to weapons EDIT: this only applies in sdc robotic str
MD: supersedes, use only str damage or wep damage
-now MD is literally just x100 to sdc, then why does it not follow one of the stacking rules of the other? Especially considering how the other two go.

[Nether]

We're talking about MD weapons like Vibro-Swords, TW swords, magic swords, and so on. They're not at all comparable to a wooden plank.

Agreed.
Which is why it's absurd to say, "I do more damage with a wooden plank than I do with my bare hands, therefore a supernatural creature would do more damage with a MD melee weapon than with his/her/its bare hands."
It is simply not comparable, as you point out.

Talk about missing the point. I said it's not comparable because one item is an SDC dealing weapon which is as flimsy as tissue paper in the hands of someone with supernatural strength versus a weapon made of MDC materials which itself inflicts mega-damage.

As for the second point, not comparable how? You're so strong that you inflict mega-damage, you're holding a weapon which inflicts mega-damage, how does it not make sense for that being to inflict more damage with that weapon than someone who's as strong as he but striking barehanded? Are you seriously trying to sit there with a straight face and claim that that argument makes no sense whatsoever? That the Demigod with the magic sword SHOULDN'T deal more damage than the Demigod striking barehanded? That the True Atlantean Undead Slayer with his Flaming Sword shouldn't deal more damage than the True Atlantean Undead Slayer fighting barehanded? That the Cosmo-Knight wielding a Rune Sword which deals 1d6x10 MD shouldn't deal equal damage to the Cosmo-Knight wielding a Cosmic Weapon which also does 1d6x10 MD? Is that your position, that none of that makes sense?

Just wanted to add to what you said Cyber, in terms of game system rules I find it very hypocritical that sdc person gets to add his str boost to weapons when a SN Str person does not get a boost to the MD weapon he is using.

There is no difference here from magic/tech ext, as MD is literally just a multiplier 1:100 ratio compared to SDC.

And even though the various Str charts for what you can lift carry make no sense between the various types of strengths, it should affect the standard way of doing things. Part of the problem, is they have multiple rules, and closest thing to a standard is stacking str and wep.

SDC: sdc person adds his str bonus to weapons
Robotic: stack his str damage to weapons
MD: supersedes, use only str damage or wep damage
-now MD is literally just x100 to sdc, then why does it not follow one of the stacking rules of the other? Especially considering how the other two go.

Robotic and Augmented PS would only stack their PS bonus if their normal damage is in SDC. otherwise it wouldn't stack in

Ah, roger. Will update post.

[Killer Cyborg]

as i have pointed out before in these discussions, prior to 1995, MD weapons stacked.

If you know of any place in the books that stated that as an outright RULE, by all means post it.
If you're just going off of the assumption "since Gargoyle weapons worked that way, all weapons must work that way" or similar logic, then I'm going to have to disagree.

Rifts Source book 1 Pre revised Rifts. Rifts Pre 1994. My copy of Rifts 2nd Print has WAY different rules then what was in the 1994 Revised edition.

Since I have those books, feel free to cite the quote and page number the that you think indicates that "MD weapons stacked."
In the original Rifts book, and in SB1, Supernatural PS didn't even inflict MD at all.
The only relevant precedent that I know of that relates to the discussion is the ruling in SB1 that Robots could apply their PS damage bonus as a MD damage bonus when using MD melee weapons

Rifts Pantheons of the megaverse, Went out of it's way to Allow stacking, and further stated magic weapons could Add The Bonus number.

I have that book too, so again, cite the passages, page numbers, etc.
The only precedent I remember offhand (iirc) from that book is Thor's Hammer (or belt? or gloves?), which had a specific magical ability that let Thor become an exception to the rule, and add his PS damage bonus to his melee attacks. Which actually demonstrates that that kind of thing is NOT the rule.

[Killer Cyborg]

in terms of game system rules I find it very hypocritical that sdc person gets to add his str boost to weapons when a SN Str person does not get a boost to the MD weapon he is using.

Then, by all means, add in the SDC damage bonus from a high Physical Strength score.
If you REALLY want that guy with Supernatural PS of 30 to get that extra +15 SDC bonus to his 4d6 MD sword, go for it.

There is no difference here from magic/tech ext, as MD is literally just a multiplier 1:100 ratio compared to SDC.

Not literally. There are actual differences between 1 MD and 100 SDC.
Primarily, that there is a blow-through or blow-under effect with mega-damage.
According to CB1, 1 MD can destroy up to 150 SDC worth of material.
According to CB1r, it's rounded off the other way, where a target with 151 SDC could survive up to 2 MD.

But, as I said above, if you want to apply the SDC damage bonus to MD weapons, go for it.
I agree that it would make sense to do things this way.

It would NOT make sense, though, to turn that SDC damage bonus into Mega-Damage.

And even though the various Str charts for what you can lift carry make no sense between the various types of strengths, it should affect the standard way of doing things. Part of the problem, is they have multiple rules, and closest thing to a standard is stacking str and wep.

The closest thing we have to a standard is the official standard: your physical strength adds an SDC damage bonus, as described in the attribute charts.
That's the standard.
There's no exception for Supernatural PS, but there's no real reason why there should be.

SDC: sdc person adds his str bonus to weapons
Robotic: stack his str damage to weapons EDIT: this only applies in sdc robotic str
MD: supersedes, use only str damage or wep damage
-now MD is literally just x100 to sdc, then why does it not follow one of the stacking rules of the other? Especially considering how the other two go.

It doesn't follow the other stacking rules because the SDC damage bonus wouldn't matter to Mega-Damage attacks.
Like you mention, the robot stacking ONLY applies with SDC attacks.
As I pointed out by citing PFRPT, the same is true with Supernatural PS. In cases where a supernatural creature has a high enough PS to have a damage bonus, but where they still only inflict SDC damage, their PS damage bonus stacks with either their fists or their weapons, just as with anybody else.
The key difference between supernatural creatures is (as I've already pointed out), they have the advantage of being able to transfer their Punch damage through an inferior weapon.
If a creature with Supernatural PS stabs you with a toothpick, he inflicts his normal punch damage (plus PS damage bonus where applicable).
If a normal strength person/creature stabs you with a toothpick, he/it only inflicts the damage from the toothpick (plus PS damage bonus where applicable)
Supernatural Strength gets stacking where normal strength doesn't, not the other way around.

[Nether]

@KC

Yes, you did.
But that's not the real reason why it's not comparable. It's not comparable because the power level is so different, and the damage sources so varied, that assuming that those weapons work the same way that mundane objects work is a pretty big leap in logic.

Where does it say that there is any difference to how the mechanics work in regards to tech, magic, supernatural, robotic?

For one thing, due to the nature of the weapons.
A vibro-blade is essentially a contained particle-field by some descriptions, in which case the force you swing it with doesn't real matter any more than it would matter when you're firing a particle beam weapon.
Magic weapons (TW or otherwise) inflict mega-damage for any number of reasons, any number of which might well not be affected by additional physical force. The damage of magical weapons is never listed, but is most logically assumed to be a specific magical effect that occurs regardless of the force applied.

Ok, so your explaining it with real life science which A) the game doesnt follow exactly, B)where in the mechanics system does it say that particle fields for melee weapons dont function the same way?
Eg.) If you have a sdc particle melee weapon, then it would add str bonus, but a MD particle melee wep doesnt?
I'm not aware of anything in the game mechanics that say there is a difference between sources other than sdc/mdc.

No, you're not.
As I've already demonstrated, the mega-damage inflicted by Supernatural PS is definitely NOT inflicted because the supernatural creature is THAT strong.
Did you miss my example comparing the punch damage from a normal human to the punch damage of a Supernatural creature of equal strength to the human?

Where in the books does it say this? You can extrapolate to come to a conclusion but the system is erratic and does not state this.
SDC to MDC is x100, but many things such as str do not follow this mechanical idea.

Because, as pointed out, that someone is not really THAT strong.
Also, because weapons don't necessarily matter with that kind of force. A LAW rocket first at a tank is going to inflict the same damage no matter how much force is behind it, as long as the force is sufficient to trigger detonation.

You cant use a ranged weapon with a set amount of force to compare to melee weapon with str. Your talking about a explosive that will do x amount of destruction which has no form of additional force being added to it ie Str.


Who can dig a bigger hole (say reg dirt and everything else being equal) using the exact same spade, 300 lbs guy of pure muscle or 80 lbs guys with some muscle?

Also, are you debating this from a sysrem mechanics side or in game rpg side?

[Cyber-Knight]

For one thing, due to the nature of the weapons.
A vibro-blade is essentially a contained particle-field by some descriptions, in which case the force you swing it with doesn't real matter any more than it would matter when you're firing a particle beam weapon.

Rifts Sourcebook One.

"Of course, M.D. bonuses from power armor, bionics, and robotics is added to the mega-damage total inflicted by M.D.C. weapons like the vibro-weapons and hand to hand combat."

No, you're not.
As I've already demonstrated, the mega-damage inflicted by Supernatural PS is definitely NOT inflicted because the supernatural creature is THAT strong.
Did you miss my example comparing the punch damage from a normal human to the punch damage of a Supernatural creature of equal strength to the human?

I didn't. I just disagreed with it. What you misunderstand is that just because it uses the same number that doesn't indicate that they're on the same level. By adding the term (Supernatural) to it you're indicating that you're using a different scale. Saying that they should be the same is like saying a 1d4 SDC weapon is the same as a 1d4 MDC weapon. They're numerically the same, but the categories they're placed in indicate that they're using different scaling. Though I will agree that supernatural creatures should be able to lift and carry far more (which is covered in the Supernatural Strength super-power, where they lift/carry 300/500 times their PS in lbs, thus accounting for their much greater strength).

Because, as pointed out, that someone is not really THAT strong.
Also, because weapons don't necessarily matter with that kind of force. A LAW rocket first at a tank is going to inflict the same damage no matter how much force is behind it, as long as the force is sufficient to trigger detonation.

Talk about your strawmen examples. We're not talking about explosive warheads. We're talking about swords. And a sword, whether it's a Vibro-Sword, Rune Sword, or Magic Sword WOULD inflict more damage on the target depending on how much force was behind it. A normal human with a 4d6 MD magic sword would not be able to do as much damage as a Gargoyle wielding the same sword.

Yes.
I'll break it down for you:
-Your argument (that the stronger the wielder of a melee weapon is, the more damage they inflict, assuming that the relative forces in question are roughly equal) is based on the laws of physics.
-Supernatural Strength defies the laws of physics. (RUE, p. 285)
Therefore, the basis for your argument is something that does not apply to Supernatural Strength.

They defy the laws of physics in that their bodies should normally be unable to perform as they do, but that doesn't change that they still interact with the world in the same way. Whether a Gargoyle's physique is capable of exerting that amount of force, the fact is they do, because the target sustains 4d6 MD from his punch. It's ludicrous to claim that that same Gargoyle would derive no benefit whatsoever from wielding a mega-damage melee weapon of some sort. And given that a few pages after the Gargoyle stats in Triax & the NGR feature a number of non-magical, TECHNOLOGICAL weapons which Gargoyle's wield in combat and which do add their supernatural strength as damage, I'd say my interpretation makes more sense than yours.

Weapon damages don't stack like you want. If you tape a dagger (1d6 damage) onto the end of your sword (2d4 damage), that doesn't mean that your weapon now deals the combined damage of both (1d6+2d4 damage).
If you put a dagger (1d6 damage) in the fist (1d4 damage) of a normal person, that doesn't mean that the dagger inflicts 1d6+1d4 damage.
Weapon damage is inclusive of the muscle strength of the wielder, except for the listed PS damage bonuses.
The damages of different muscle-based weapons overlaps; it doesn't stack.

Wow, talk about a viewpoint completely divorced from reality.

1) You don't do damage with a sword because it makes you stronger. You do damage with a sword because of the sharp cutting blade. The stronger the force behind the blade, though, the more damage it inflicts. Which is why taping a dagger to the of a sword doesn't inclift more damage, because you're not benefitting from the sword blade.
2) In Palladium games, while they use a different mechanic (the PS bonus rather than the punch damage), melee weapons STILL BENEFIT FROM P.S. You still inflict more damage the higher your strength is. That the mechanic is different doesn't change the fact that a character with a PS of 20 still does more damage with his longsword than a character with a PS of 10 does with his longsword. Likewise, a Gargoyle with a supernatural PS of 35 should do more damage with a vibro-sword than a Coalition Grunt with his normal strength should do with a vibro-sword. It's ludicrous to claim that they'd both inflict the same amount of damage.

In either case, though, the official rule of "use whichever weapon (punch or melee weapon) inflicts more damage" makes more sense than stacking both of them.

I'm talking about the tattoo weapon. And no, it does not make more sense, hence this entire discussion.

You lost me there. You're comparing two Cosmo-Knights with weapons that inflict the same damage.
Why wouldn't they inflict the same damage?
Keep in mind, it's been a while since I've read up on Cosmo-Knights....

Why wouldn't they inflict the same damage, indeed. That's the entire point of this.

You have a Cosmo-Knight with PS 51 and a Cosmic Weapon which deals 1d6x10 MD. According to the rules, that Cosmo-Knight CAN stack his supernatural PS damage with his Cosmic Weapon, thus he inflicts 2d6x10 MD with each melee attack.

Now take a Cosmo-Knight armed with the Sword of Atlantis, which also does 1d6x10 MD. According to you, that damage shouldn't stack, therefore that Cosmo-Knight would only inflict 1d6x10 MD with each melee attack, despite his supernatural PS behind the attack. So how is it that one could have two Cosmo-Knights with equal strength and wielding weapons which themselves deal equal damage, but the second one only inflicts half as much damage as the first?

That, incidentally, is evidence that the rules as they are now don't reflect how the game began. While it specifically states that the Cosmo-Knight adds his normal hand-to-hand damage to the weapon, it never states that that's some weird exception. The same holds true for the Gargoyle weapons in Triax & the NGR. They're not cosmic weapons made from the Cosmo-Knight himself. They're just technological weapons, like vibro-swords (which, as I pointed out, are explicitly noted as adding robotic strength to their damage), which the Gargoyles wield and which add their supernatural damage to the damage total. So yeah, this rule was a change, because it was clearly NEVER intended from the start.

[Killer Cyborg]

For one thing, due to the nature of the weapons.
A vibro-blade is essentially a contained particle-field by some descriptions, in which case the force you swing it with doesn't real matter any more than it would matter when you're firing a particle beam weapon.

Rifts Sourcebook One.

"Of course, M.D. bonuses from power armor, bionics, and robotics is added to the mega-damage total inflicted by M.D.C. weapons like the vibro-weapons and hand to hand combat."

Good point; I agree that with vibro-blades, force does seem to matter beyond a certain point, even though the rule you cited is no longer in use.
The question, then, is how much it matters.
CB1r updated the rule to include a mega-damage PS damage bonus to such attacks, but it's not punch damage, nor is it the normal PS damage bonus.
Which indicates that while force does matter, the authors re-thought how much it would matter after writing SB1.
Then re-thought it again when writing RUE, as the CB1r rule is not included or referred to.

No, you're not.
As I've already demonstrated, the mega-damage inflicted by Supernatural PS is definitely NOT inflicted because the supernatural creature is THAT strong.
Did you miss my example comparing the punch damage from a normal human to the punch damage of a Supernatural creature of equal strength to the human?

I didn't. I just disagreed with it. What you misunderstand is that just because it uses the same number that doesn't indicate that they're on the same level.

If you can lift the same amount as another person, and you can carry the same amount as another person, how are you not at least roughly as strong as that other person?

By adding the term (Supernatural) to it you're indicating that you're using a different scale.

I'm not sure I agree with that, but I'm not sure what you mean.

Saying that they should be the same is like saying a 1d4 SDC weapon is the same as a 1d4 MDC weapon.

That would only be true if 1 point of Supernatural PS equalled 100 points of normal PS.
Personally, that's how I think that things should be, but they're not.

I will agree that supernatural creatures should be able to lift and carry far more (which is covered in the Supernatural Strength super-power, where they lift/carry 300/500 times their PS in lbs, thus accounting for their much greater strength).

Do you have any reason to logically prefer boosting lift/carry numbers to match the the listed punch damage rather than the other way around?

Because, as pointed out, that someone is not really THAT strong.
Also, because weapons don't necessarily matter with that kind of force. A LAW rocket first at a tank is going to inflict the same damage no matter how much force is behind it, as long as the force is sufficient to trigger detonation.

Talk about your strawmen examples. We're not talking about explosive warheads. We're talking about swords. And a sword, whether it's a Vibro-Sword, Rune Sword, or Magic Sword WOULD inflict more damage on the target depending on how much force was behind it. A normal human with a 4d6 MD magic sword would not be able to do as much damage as a Gargoyle wielding the same sword.

Got a source for the bolded claim?

Yes.
I'll break it down for you:
-Your argument (that the stronger the wielder of a melee weapon is, the more damage they inflict, assuming that the relative forces in question are roughly equal) is based on the laws of physics.
-Supernatural Strength defies the laws of physics. (RUE, p. 285)
Therefore, the basis for your argument is something that does not apply to Supernatural Strength.

They defy the laws of physics in that their bodies should normally be unable to perform as they do, but that doesn't change that they still interact with the world in the same way.

But they don't. A person who can lift 1,000 lbs can exert a certain amount of force in a punch, according to the laws of physics.
Supernatural creatures inflict hundreds of times more damage, well beyond anything that could be explained by physics.
Hell, just their lack of density would rule out being able to exert that kind of force with sheer physical strength. By all logic, the force of a mega-damage force would propel a normal-weight person, or even a particularly heavy person, backward quite a ways. Or, if the puncher was braced, at the very least, it would drive their legs deep into the ground

The books never say how Supernatural PS defies the laws of physics, only that it does.
HOW it does is demonstrated by all the differences between supernatural PS and normal PS, including punch damage.

Whether a Gargoyle's physique is capable of exerting that amount of force, the fact is they do, because the target sustains 4d6 MD from his punch.

Agreed.

It's ludicrous to claim that that same Gargoyle would derive no benefit whatsoever from wielding a mega-damage melee weapon of some sort. And given that a few pages after the Gargoyle stats in Triax & the NGR feature a number of non-magical, TECHNOLOGICAL weapons which Gargoyle's wield in combat and which do add their supernatural strength as damage, I'd say my interpretation makes more sense than yours.

You're using rules for specific weapons in an out-dated book to claim that your interpretation makes more sense than mine, when my interpretation includes everything from the RGMG to RUE and other more recent rulings.
Don't get me wrong: in a vacuum of other information, I'd read the stats for the Gargoyle weapons (or xiticix weapons, or mutant bone weapons from Madhaven), and I'd make the same assumption that you have, that this is how it would work for all weapons and all supernatural creatures.
In fact, that's what I did, back in the day.
But we're not IN a vacuum of other information any more. The pattern is clear, and the specific weapons mentioned are the anomaly, not the rule.

And even when it did seem to be the most canon answer, that never made it make any real sense. Because, as mentioned, punch damage and melee weapon damage never normally stack.
Gargoyles in PFRPG, for example, don't add their punch damage to their SDC weapons.

Weapon damages don't stack like you want. If you tape a dagger (1d6 damage) onto the end of your sword (2d4 damage), that doesn't mean that your weapon now deals the combined damage of both (1d6+2d4 damage).
If you put a dagger (1d6 damage) in the fist (1d4 damage) of a normal person, that doesn't mean that the dagger inflicts 1d6+1d4 damage.
Weapon damage is inclusive of the muscle strength of the wielder, except for the listed PS damage bonuses.
The damages of different muscle-based weapons overlaps; it doesn't stack.

Wow, talk about a viewpoint completely divorced from reality.

Exactly.
Putting one weapon on another weapon and allowing the damage to stack simply doesn't fit with reality.

1) You don't do damage with a sword because it makes you stronger. You do damage with a sword because of the sharp cutting blade. The stronger the force behind the blade, though, the more damage it inflicts. Which is why taping a dagger to the of a sword doesn't inclift more damage, because you're not benefitting from the sword blade.

Actually, it's more than just the blade, it's the leverage. That's one reason why a sword does more damage than a knife. Both are wedges, but swords allow for a better transference of force.
Similarly, a punch inflicts less damage than a club, even though both are blunt weapons. With humans, this is partially due to hardness, but for MDC creatures (or creatures with hard MDC gloves/gauntlets/etc), the hardness isn't an issue. The differences in damage between a club and a fist are due largely to leverage.
But any way you slice it, the muscle power is included in the damage for each weapon. Allowing them to stack would be allowing that muscle power to be counted twice.

2) In Palladium games, while they use a different mechanic (the PS bonus rather than the punch damage), melee weapons STILL BENEFIT FROM P.S. You still inflict more damage the higher your strength is.

And a character with low strength inflicts less than the listed damage.
That's because the listed damage for a weapon includes a range of force behind the weapon, generally that which can be applied by characters with PS 8-15.
Below 8, the character's strength is low enough that the assumption of force needs to be adjusted.
Above 15, the character's strength is high enough that the assumption of force needs to be adjusted.

But note that the damage bonus you describe [i]is exactly the same for supernatural strength as for other kinds of strength."
A character with PS 16 gets a +1 SDC damage bonus.
A character with PS 20 gets a +5 SDC damage bonus.
A character with PS 30 gets a +15 SDC damage bonus.

This is canon.
This is official.
This is how the physics of the world of Rifts actually work.

In order to accept your argument, you have to entirely ignore the rules here, because the rules for PS damage bonus show that the actual physical force that supernatural creatures are capable of is nowhere near enough to inflict the kind of damage that they do with their bodies.
The PS damage bonus is the physics of the game.
The Supernatural Damage Tables are the "defying of physics" that supernatural creatures are allowed.

You lost me there. You're comparing two Cosmo-Knights with weapons that inflict the same damage.
Why wouldn't they inflict the same damage?
Keep in mind, it's been a while since I've read up on Cosmo-Knights....

Why wouldn't they inflict the same damage, indeed. That's the entire point of this.

You have a Cosmo-Knight with PS 51 and a Cosmic Weapon which deals 1d6x10 MD. According to the rules, that Cosmo-Knight CAN stack his supernatural PS damage with his Cosmic Weapon, thus he inflicts 2d6x10 MD with each melee attack.

Like I said, I don't remember everything about Cosmo-Knights.
I'm guessing from this that Cosmic Weapons specify that they can allow punch damage (or PS damage bonus?) to stack with those weapons?

Now take a Cosmo-Knight armed with the Sword of Atlantis, which also does 1d6x10 MD. According to you, that damage shouldn't stack, therefore that Cosmo-Knight would only inflict 1d6x10 MD with each melee attack, despite his supernatural PS behind the attack. So how is it that one could have two Cosmo-Knights with equal strength and wielding weapons which themselves deal equal damage, but the second one only inflicts half as much damage as the first?

Because Cosmic Weapons are specifically created to work in harmony with the Cosmo-Knights, presumably.

That, incidentally, is evidence that the rules as they are now don't reflect how the game began.

Again, when the game of Rifts began, Supernatural PS didn't inflict mega-damage at all.

While it specifically states that the Cosmo-Knight adds his normal hand-to-hand damage to the weapon, it never states that that's some weird exception.

The stating of it IS a statement that it's an exception.
If it were the rule, that rule would be somewhere, and would refer to all weapons in general.

[Killer Cyborg]

@KC

Yes, you did.
But that's not the real reason why it's not comparable. It's not comparable because the power level is so different, and the damage sources so varied, that assuming that those weapons work the same way that mundane objects work is a pretty big leap in logic.

Where does it say that there is any difference to how the mechanics work in regards to tech, magic, supernatural, robotic?

Not sure what you're asking here.

For one thing, due to the nature of the weapons.
A vibro-blade is essentially a contained particle-field by some descriptions, in which case the force you swing it with doesn't real matter any more than it would matter when you're firing a particle beam weapon.
Magic weapons (TW or otherwise) inflict mega-damage for any number of reasons, any number of which might well not be affected by additional physical force. The damage of magical weapons is never listed, but is most logically assumed to be a specific magical effect that occurs regardless of the force applied.

Ok, so your explaining it with real life science which A) the game doesnt follow exactly,

So explain again, without using real-life science, why supernatural strength damage should stack with melee weapons?

B) where in the mechanics system does it say that particle fields for melee weapons dont function the same way?

It doesn't.
It also doesn't state that a laser is a beam of concentrated photons; that's just how the weapon works.

Eg.) If you have a sdc particle melee weapon, then it would add str bonus, but a MD particle melee wep doesn't?

Cyber Knight already pointed out that at various points in Rifts, it HAS been shown that Rifts versions of vibro-blades are intended to work in conjunction with physical strength to varying degrees.
So consider this part of the discussion retracted.

No, you're not.
As I've already demonstrated, the mega-damage inflicted by Supernatural PS is definitely NOT inflicted because the supernatural creature is THAT strong.
Did you miss my example comparing the punch damage from a normal human to the punch damage of a Supernatural creature of equal strength to the human?

Where in the books does it say this?

Where do they say what, exactly?
That the MD inflicted by Supernatural PS is NOT because the creature is that strong?
-In the description of Supernatural PS where it specifies that Supernatural PS defies the laws of physics.
-In the rules for PS damage bonus, where a supernatural creature with PS 16+ has the exact same damage bonus as a normal human with PS 16+.
-In the rules that show that a normal human who is just as strong as a supernatural creature inflicts hundreds of times less damage.

All of these places show that the punch damage is not inflicted by physical strength, but rather by supernatural effect.

Because, as pointed out, that someone is not really THAT strong.
Also, because weapons don't necessarily matter with that kind of force. A LAW rocket first at a tank is going to inflict the same damage no matter how much force is behind it, as long as the force is sufficient to trigger detonation.

You cant use a ranged weapon with a set amount of force to compare to melee weapon with str.

I just did.

Your talking about a explosive that will do x amount of destruction which has no form of additional force being added to it ie Str.

Yup.
And you're talking about magical weapons that will do x amount of destruction, regardless of additional force.

Who can dig a bigger hole (say reg dirt and everything else being equal) using the exact same spade, 300 lbs guy of pure muscle or 80 lbs guys with some muscle?

In Rifts, it's the guy with the Digging/Tunneling section to his Speed score.

In reality, you're looking at two people who can lift/carry vastly different levels of weight.
In Rifts, the 80 lb guy with "some muscle" could punch his fist right through the 300 lb guy with pure muscle, if the smaller guy has supernatural PS. Or even "augmented" PS.
Even if the bigger guy could lift/carry a heck of a lot more.
Because supernatural PS doesn't really have much to do with muscle, nor with weight.

Also, are you debating this from a sysrem mechanics side or in game rpg side?

Both?
The mechanics of the system are the physics of the game world.

[Nether]

@KC

If you can lift the same amount as another person, and you can carry the same amount as another person, how are you not at least roughly as strong as that other person?

Because the mechanics system for the game is very illogical. There clearly should be differences between the two but for whatever reasoning there is not. If you can inlflict md with naturally then it should show you are naturally much stronger. The books as far as i know have never suggested SN beings are not extra strong. The game books say they can lift this much, but I suspect game subscription if it is mentioned anywhere would say how super strong they are.

Do you have any reason to logically prefer boosting lift/carry numbers to match the the listed punch damage rather than the other way around?

I think the logical reason is that different str scales should have a lift/carry differance just like 100 sdc is equal to 1 md. To me there is little point in having different categories to show there is a major difference only to do something like lift/carry being the same.
It just makes sense to me that they shouldnt be the same.
I could see the authors choosing to do this so you dont have SN people running around bench pressing Death Heads and other very large things which in a lot of ways diminishes world theme.

[Killer Cyborg]

Hello,

A quick side point that I believe has not been mentioned here yet:

A sword or other HtH weapon, regardless of damage carries other bonuses (other than additional dmg) if the person wielding it has the skill. Those bonuses are strike and parry.

When wielding a weapon skill fully you do not generally bludgeon your target with all your strength. You must use that weapon skillfully, which if you would normally inflict more damage by hth; you might want to do that, but you would be at a reach disadvantage-as well as don’t receive the other bonuses for your sword skill, which already allow you to join your hand to hand bonuses towards strike and parry with your sword bonuses.

So you may not be able to inflict more damage, but the fact that you will be more likely to hit your target and parry your targets attacks is a big bonus; That is the advantage of using a weapon skillfully your able to wield it with skill-

I think the rule as Canon is a balancing rule (and I like it).

Hello!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I saw this earlier, but did not comment.
I think that you raise a good point.

[Nether]

Hello,

A quick side point that I believe has not been mentioned here yet:

A sword or other HtH weapon, regardless of damage carries other bonuses (other than additional dmg) if the person wielding it has the skill. Those bonuses are strike and parry.

When wielding a weapon skill fully you do not generally bludgeon your target with all your strength. You must use that weapon skillfully, which if you would normally inflict more damage by hth; you might want to do that, but you would be at a reach disadvantage-as well as don’t receive the other bonuses for your sword skill, which already allow you to join your hand to hand bonuses towards strike and parry with your sword bonuses.

So you may not be able to inflict more damage, but the fact that you will be more likely to hit your target and parry your targets attacks is a big bonus; That is the advantage of using a weapon skillfully your able to wield it with skill-

I think the rule as Canon is a balancing rule (and I like it).

Hello!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I saw this earlier, but did not comment.
I think that you raise a good point.

I saw it too, but with the comparisons of str type bonus to sdc / mdc damage, they both would get skill bonus but only one gets the damage bonus. So to me it becomes a moot point.

[Killer Cyborg]

@KC

If you can lift the same amount as another person, and you can carry the same amount as another person, how are you not at least roughly as strong as that other person?

Because the mechanics system for the game is very illogical.

That depends on how one looks at it.
If one looks at the fact that normal people and people with supernatural PS have the same damage bonuses, that the damages for supernatural PS are all out of whack with their lift/carry capacity, that punch damage and weapon damage don't stack for anybody, that supernatural PS is independent of mass, that supernatural PS is independent of muscle tissue, and the description of supernatural strength specifies that it defies physics, and one concludes that the most obvious explanation that fits the facts is that the punch damage listed for Supernatural strength is a supernatural effect rather than a natural effect, then it all makes sense except for a few anomalies such as Gargoyle weapons.

If, on the other hand, one looks at the fact that normal people and people with supernatural PS have the same damage bonuses, that the damages for supernatural PS are all out of whack with their lift/carry capacity, that punch damage and weapon damage don't stack for anybody, that supernatural PS is independent of mass, that supernatural PS is independent of muscle tissue, and the description of supernatural strength specifies that it defies physics, and one concludes that the most obvious explanation that fits the facts is that the supernatural punch damage listed is a natural effect rather than a supernatural one, THEN virtually none of the rules make sense except for the few anomalous weapons that state that they stack.
And even those rules don't make sense, since MD punch damage still shouldn't logically stack with MD melee weapon damage, since it never works that way with SDC weapons.
At best, the SDC PS damage bonus should be an MD damage bonus... but that's not the case.
So yeah, if in spite of all evidence to the contrary, one sticks to the theory that supernatural punch damage should as a rule stack with melee weapon damage, the rules won't make much sense.

Personally, I go with the explanation that fits the most facts, not the explanation that flies in the face of them.

There clearly should be differences between the two but for whatever reasoning there is not. If you can inlflict md with naturally then it should show you are naturally much stronger.

A man stabs a man with a knife, and inflicts 1d6 SDC.
Another man stabs a man with a magic knife, and inflicts 1d6 MD.
Does the above example show that the second man is "naturally much stronger" than the first man?

Do you have any reason to logically prefer boosting lift/carry numbers to match the the listed punch damage rather than the other way around?

I think the logical reason is that different str scales should have a lift/carry differance just like 100 sdc is equal to 1 md.

That's not really the question, since the lift/carry ratios ARE different.
The question is:
If a normal human that can lift 1,000 lbs inflicts 1d4+10 SDC, and a supernatural human that can lift 1,000 lbs inflicts 1d6 MD, and one wishes to adjust things so that the damage output per weight lifted was equal (more or less), is there any reason why one would logically favor raising the weight that supernatural humans can lift per PS point to match their listed damage output instead of lowering the damage output to match the weight that can be lifted per PS point?

As in:
Is there any logical reason why one would re-adjust the scale so that a supernatural creature with PS of 20 could carry 34,000 lbs, instead of adjusting it so that a supernatural creature with PS 20 could only inflict 1d4+2 SDC (the equivalent of anybody else who could lift 1,000 lbs)?

To me there is little point in having different categories to show there is a major difference only to do something like lift/carry being the same.

To me, there is little point in having different strength categories at all. It causes more problems than it solves.

I could see the authors choosing to do this so you dont have SN people running around bench pressing Death Heads and other very large things which in a lot of ways diminishes world theme.

Being able to punch for as much mega-damage as they can already diminishes the world, especially since they don't have the actual strength to back it up.
1d6 MD is the equivalent of about 10-20 sticks of dynamite, depending on what damage listing you use for dynamite.
How is it any more absurd or damaging for characters to be able to punch with that kind of force (or up to 20x that kind of force, or even more) than for them to be able to lift large and heavy objects like a Death's Head Transport?

[Killer Cyborg]

Yeah I know you did, but you agree with it so found nothing to argue with me about...

Guilty.

[Nether]

Nether wrote:
@KC
Quote:
Yes, you did.
But that's not the real reason why it's not comparable. It's not comparable because the power level is so different, and the damage sources so varied, that assuming that those weapons work the same way that mundane objects work is a pretty big leap in logic.


Where does it say that there is any difference to how the mechanics work in regards to tech, magic, supernatural, robotic?


Not sure what you're asking here.

i am asking where does it give any rule that there is any difference that magic MD sword gets different bonuses added to it than a MD technological sword, then a supernatural str?
As in your comment suggest you believe that they are doing different types of damage and are under different game mechanics for how they proceed.

So explain again, without using real-life science, why supernatural strength damage should stack with melee weapons?

Because it is one thing to explain the sciences in the game world of weapons that the players themselves would need to be a versed in multiple sciences to understand that a particle beam would function differently or robotic mechanics really function like this.. ext ext, then there is more common logic, that something like str increases the force of a melee weapon, and if talking about MD, then it is the same except to the x100 degree.

It is also another that str in general should follow the same suit regardless of what category it is in. So sdc, robotic, SN md should all follow the same structure for how they function in game. They all get a bonus derrived from the same way or they do not.

Quote:
B) where in the mechanics system does it say that particle fields for melee weapons dont function the same way?


It doesn't.
It also doesn't state that a laser is a beam of concentrated photons; that's just how the weapon works.

You were claiming that a vibro knife does not get any str bonus because of the way it works when I see no rule excluding it.
I mean function in the same way as in, where in the rules does it say that particle field melee weapons function differently from other melee weapons, ie. no str bonus. So basically if a robotic melee weapon gets a str bonus, then so does a vibro knife as the system says all melee get x bonus to damage, not vibro knives gets bonus x, and plasma charged swords get bonus x.

Quote:
Quote:
No, you're not.
As I've already demonstrated, the mega-damage inflicted by Supernatural PS is definitely NOT inflicted because the supernatural creature is THAT strong.
Did you miss my example comparing the punch damage from a normal human to the punch damage of a Supernatural creature of equal strength to the human?


Where in the books does it say this?


Where do they say what, exactly?
That the MD inflicted by Supernatural PS is NOT because the creature is that strong?
-In the description of Supernatural PS where it specifies that Supernatural PS defies the laws of physics.
-In the rules for PS damage bonus, where a supernatural creature with PS 16+ has the exact same damage bonus as a normal human with PS 16+.
-In the rules that show that a normal human who is just as strong as a supernatural creature inflicts hundreds of times less damage.

All of these places show that the punch damage is not inflicted by physical strength, but rather by supernatural effect.

In same order of your hyphens,
-Ya, defies the laws of physics because they are incredibly stronger than a human could ever be, because they are stronger than sdc robots which would be already much stronger than a sdc human, hence why they can punch for insane mega damage.
-Your extrapolating, but because they have the same sdc punch str bonus doesnt mean they are of equal str. RUE 286 shows that they are not considered the same strength, as a SN can carry and lift much more than the sdc str. If anything I would think the sdc str bonus damage is this way because author wants to 'balance' it this way, not to mention some mdc SN creatures become sdc in non magic environments.

Quote:
Quote:
Because, as pointed out, that someone is not really THAT strong.
Also, because weapons don't necessarily matter with that kind of force. A LAW rocket first at a tank is going to inflict the same damage no matter how much force is behind it, as long as the force is sufficient to trigger detonation.


You cant use a ranged weapon with a set amount of force to compare to melee weapon with str.


I just did.

imo this is just bad form to respond this way. Your comparing two things that do not function the same way, therefore your law rocket eg has no meaning to the debate. I could say the tensile str of paper will rip at x amount of force and nothing will change that, but seriously how does that compare to a weapon under different exerted forces discussion?
Am i missing your comparison that a LAW rocket exploding is comparable to a sword with different str users? Because one is static force, the other is not.

Quote:
Also, are you debating this from a sysrem mechanics side or in game rpg side?


Both?
The mechanics of the system are the physics of the game world.

As in there is the rule system, (carrying / lifting capacity), then there is the flavor text that describes how they would like something to be but in the game it is far from.
-so a dragon in flavor text might be described as being able to lift or throw things much greater than the actual rule system states, or as many people favorite, the Triax Devestator main gun, if (not sure they describe it) they did describe it they would prolly say how it can not only devestate your grandma, but your entire football field in just one amazing super blast. Then you see the rule which is soo far from that descriptions reality.
-China two for eg. has a rule panel for effects on abilities outside china, or a spells mechanics, not its flavor text.

To me it seems you argue with both in mind at the same time where as I view them as to separate entities that do not necessarily effect the other.

[Nether]

Hello,

A quick side point that I believe has not been mentioned here yet:

A sword or other HtH weapon, regardless of damage carries other bonuses (other than additional dmg) if the person wielding it has the skill. Those bonuses are strike and parry.

When wielding a weapon skill fully you do not generally bludgeon your target with all your strength. You must use that weapon skillfully, which if you would normally inflict more damage by hth; you might want to do that, but you would be at a reach disadvantage-as well as don’t receive the other bonuses for your sword skill, which already allow you to join your hand to hand bonuses towards strike and parry with your sword bonuses.

So you may not be able to inflict more damage, but the fact that you will be more likely to hit your target and parry your targets attacks is a big bonus; That is the advantage of using a weapon skillfully your able to wield it with skill-

I think the rule as Canon is a balancing rule (and I like it).

Hello!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I saw this earlier, but did not comment.
I think that you raise a good point.

I saw it too, but with the comparisons of str type bonus to sdc / mdc damage, they both would get skill bonus but only one gets the damage bonus. So to me it becomes a moot point.

May I ask you to clarify why it is a moot point?

Because we are debating that str (sdc str for sdc wep, SN str for md wep) should add a boost to damage of a melee weapon as long as both are on same level. (sdc vs SN-mdc)

A person using a sdc weapon gets his wp bonuses to strike / parry, + str bonus.
A person using a mdc weapon gets his wp bonuses to strike / parry, but no str bonus / boost to damage if SN str.

Your comment is suggesting it is a balancing factor for why SN str doesnt give a bonus to md weapon. Sinse both sdc / mdc elements get the exact same bonuses for wp and use, it doesnt favor one side or the other and is 'moot'.

[Nightmask]

Because we are debating that str (sdc str for sdc wep, SN str for md wep) should add a boost to damage of a melee weapon as long as both are on same level. (sdc vs SN-mdc)

A person using a sdc weapon gets his wp bonuses to strike / parry, + str bonus.
A person using a mdc weapon gets his wp bonuses to strike / parry, but no str bonus / boost to damage if SN str.

Your comment is suggesting it is a balancing factor for why SN str doesnt give a bonus to md weapon. Sinse both sdc / mdc elements get the exact same bonuses for wp and use, it doesnt favor one side or the other and is 'moot'.

It also gets a bit ridiculous to insist in a game where balance isn't built into the system that somehow you're balancing things by introducing something that is far more physics-defying and contrary as Supernatural PS being worthless with regards to increasing the damage dealt by a MD melee weapon. It's a rule that's as ridiculous as saying 'creatures with Supernatural Strength aren't able to pick up and wield weapons at all only non-supernatural strength can'.

'Yo Demonicius ever wonder why our indestructible weapons don't deal extra damage even though we're so much stronger than those puny mortals?'

'Got no idea Ripjak, strange though since they don't have any problems getting to deal extra damage with weapons when they use them.'

'Yeah it's like some arbitrary and illogical force is nerfing our abilities when we ought to be dealing more damage. Heck why do we even like or use weapons then?'

[Damian Magecraft]

The Pro Nerfing STrength people are trolls who don't even play the game as written. This is what I have decided.
They are just playing devil's advocate to take away damage when ever possible because , by golly, a 50 mdc armor should last forever!...

and the anti-nerf are by correlation power whores?
lets not start throwing names about eh?

[Nightmask]

Because we are debating that str (sdc str for sdc wep, SN str for md wep) should add a boost to damage of a melee weapon as long as both are on same level. (sdc vs SN-mdc)

A person using a sdc weapon gets his wp bonuses to strike / parry, + str bonus.
A person using a mdc weapon gets his wp bonuses to strike / parry, but no str bonus / boost to damage if SN str.

Your comment is suggesting it is a balancing factor for why SN str doesnt give a bonus to md weapon. Sinse both sdc / mdc elements get the exact same bonuses for wp and use, it doesnt favor one side or the other and is 'moot'.

It also gets a bit ridiculous to insist in a game where balance isn't built into the system that somehow you're balancing things by introducing something that is far more physics-defying and contrary as Supernatural PS being worthless with regards to increasing the damage dealt by a MD melee weapon. It's a rule that's as ridiculous as saying 'creatures with Supernatural Strength aren't able to pick up and wield weapons at all only non-supernatural strength can'.

'Yo Demonicius ever wonder why our indestructible weapons don't deal extra damage even though we're so much stronger than those puny mortals?'

'Got no idea Ripjak, strange though since they don't have any problems getting to deal extra damage with weapons when they use them.'

'Yeah it's like some arbitrary and illogical force is nerfing our abilities when we ought to be dealing more damage. Heck why do we even like or use weapons then?'

Most with supernatural strength wouldn’t-unless there were other bonuses to wield such a weapon, which there are.

The ability to wield a sword that does MDC damage is more than just about, “how much damage your do.”

There are additional bonuses one receives for (if they have the proper WP) strike and parry that make using the weapon beneficial.

For clarity, so I can appreciate your argument could those that are claiming the MDC damage does in fact stack, please site a reference from the text?

Thanks-

I think you're missing a very salient point, supernatural creatures tend to be fighting other supernatural creatures, and unfortunately for your position 'how much damage you do' IS what counts first and foremost. Creatures don't develop weapons because 'well I can get some bonuses to hit an opponent', they develop them because they let them deal more damage and improve their survival chances in a fight. Supernaturally strong creatures want weapons for the same reason anyone else does if not moreso, to deal better damage to a foe than being unarmed. When your opponent likely regenerates perhaps even faster than you do you want to deal better damage than what you can do without a weapon. Weapon training to be able to strike better came after, and the reason why they learned how to strike better? Because they want to be able to deal better damage than unarmed and have more of a chance to do so.

[Nightmask]

I think you're missing a very salient point, supernatural creatures tend to be fighting other supernatural creatures, and unfortunately for your position 'how much damage you do' IS what counts first and foremost. Creatures don't develop weapons because 'well I can get some bonuses to hit an opponent', they develop them because they let them deal more damage and improve their survival chances in a fight. Supernaturally strong creatures want weapons for the same reason anyone else does if not moreso, to deal better damage to a foe than being unarmed. When your opponent likely regenerates perhaps even faster than you do you want to deal better damage than what you can do without a weapon. Weapon training to be able to strike better came after, and the reason why they learned how to strike better? Because they want to be able to deal better damage than unarmed and have more of a chance to do so.

I’m really not missing any points on this topic, and your response doesn’t say anything about what I have stated.
You are stating your opinion about how things should work, in your opinion.
And I am making the case that there are other considerations one has to make, when considering the bonuses one gets when wielding a weapon.
As usual you come over the top of my thoughts, By making exceedingly invalid statements such as…

So you think when someone else makes a point it's 'just an opinion' whereas you're 'making a case'. Clearly you're missing the point that you're tossing out an opinion that fails due to the actual facts involved in the actual discussion.

I think you're missing a very salient point, supernatural creatures tend to be fighting other supernatural creatures, and unfortunately for your position 'how much damage you do' IS what counts first and foremost.

You have to hit your opponents first in order to do damage-such is the bonus granted to someone wielding a sword vs someone who is not.

Putting the cart before the horse, first one develops the weapon so they can do better damage THEN they realize they need to practice and learn how to strike more effectively. Another flaw in your point there is why would you bother with weapons in the first place when you'd simply learn a HtH skill to improve your ability to strike? 'Gee why am I using this dagger when doesn't help me any? I should just learn to punch better.'

Creatures don't develop weapons because 'well I can get some bonuses to hit an opponent', they develop them because they let them deal more damage and improve their survival chances in a fight.

This is exactly why weapons are developed: Why is a M-16 better than a pistol at long range? The better to shoot you with my dear…. Why is a sword better than a knife? The better to stab you with my dear…
Reach is more important and the skill to wield a weapon than damage, weapons are used and developed for a variety of purposes dependent on who is wielding a weapon; which is why so many different types of weapons are developed.

Sorry but this is a discussion about melee weapons NOT about modern automatic firearms. They aren't relevant to the discussion at hand. You're also leaving off that the sword is going to deal more damage in the hands of someone stronger, as will the dagger, as both weapons are dependent on how strong you are for some of their damage. Their damage dealing isn't independent of strength.

Supernaturally strong creatures want weapons for the same reason anyone else does if not moreso, to deal better damage to a foe than being unarmed.

Most supernatural creatures do not really need the trappings of mortals; this is stated well by K.S. many times throughout the text of Palladium Books. Weapons included, which is why by canon they don’t stack (unless specifically stated within the text).

Have you paid attention to just how many supernatural creatures have and use weapons? That the Splugorth churn out magical weapons all over the place? That's also a ridiculous response 'well they don't stack because they don't need them'. 'Gee you're a supernatural creature so you don't need ANYTHING including that Axe of yours so here's an arbitrary rule that says if you don't need something then it doesn't work for you so that Axe won't cut anyone or hurt them anymore than your bare hands will.'

When your opponent likely regenerates perhaps even faster than you do you want to deal better damage than what you can do without a weapon.

This is irrelevant… “Wanting to deal more damage?” unfortunately when your opponent is bigger and stronger than you-you must adapt your tactics, such as in reality.

How ridiculous, to dismiss the main reason for a weapon as 'irrelevant'. Especially when your opponent is bigger and stronger and you have even MORE reason to need to deal more damage to him. If your opponent heals faster than you can damage it he's going to eliminate you, so you have to be able to deal damage faster than he can heal it. Ergo you need weapons so you can take your unarmed damage and replace it with the superior armed damage.

Weapon training to be able to strike better came after, and the reason why they learned how to strike better?
Because they want to be able to deal better damage than unarmed and have more of a chance to do so.

The only statement I agree with, which in fact makes my point. How is it you will have more of a chance to strike your opponent then? Bonuses to strike, which will be afforded to you, if you have the appropriate skill.

Which fails as I noted earlier because you can learn how to strike better via unarmed combat training, if the weapon's pointless beyond giving you better ability to hit someone you toss the weapon and simply focus on improving your bare hand technique.

Really, if you want to insist there's a magical law built into Rifts whereby weapons stop working once someone's supernaturally strong you can but logically that's simply nonsense. An indestructible rune weapon doesn't magically stop dealing damage because its wielder can deal 2d4x10 MD and the weapon deals 1d4x10 MD. Supernaturally strong creatures don't have some kind of magical limiter that says they can't use weapons 'because you're so strong you don't need it'. All those magical weapons churned out by giants and gods weren't produced because 'well I need a few more bonuses to hit' but because 'I want to devastate my opponent and raw strength just isn't enough I need to add to that more'.

[flatline]

The guy with supernatural strength and a supernaturally durable battle axe must do more damage and be more effective than the guy without the axe because the axe improves the effectiveness of the strike.

ONLY according to the laws of physics.
BUT according to the laws of physics, Supernatural PS shouldn't inflict any mega-damage to begin with.

According to the laws of physics, there's no such thing as mega-damage.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

The guy with supernatural strength and a supernaturally durable battle axe must do more damage and be more effective than the guy without the axe because the axe improves the effectiveness of the strike.

ONLY according to the laws of physics.
BUT according to the laws of physics, Supernatural PS shouldn't inflict any mega-damage to begin with.

According to the laws of physics, there's no such thing as mega-damage.

--flatline

You really have to wonder how people can argue that contradictory things make sense when they don't. Supernatural Strength is vastly stronger than normal strength and normal strength adds to normal SDC damage yet will insist that there's some kind of cap in reality whereby once you're supernaturally strong it no longer adds to anything. Well except where it does. All the excuses given just fail because they're all trying to justify an arbitrary rule that 'Supernatural Strength no longer adds to Weapon damage', a rule made as arbitrarily as a GM going 'uh no sulfuric acid doesn't burn stuff and is safe to drink' for no other reason than his PC group has started using it as an effective means of dealing with the threats in his game so me makes a ridiculous ruling rather than adapt.

[Cyber-Knight]

The guy with supernatural strength and a supernaturally durable battle axe must do more damage and be more effective than the guy without the axe because the axe improves the effectiveness of the strike.

ONLY according to the laws of physics.
BUT according to the laws of physics, Supernatural PS shouldn't inflict any mega-damage to begin with.

According to the laws of physics, there's no such thing as mega-damage.

--flatline

You really have to wonder how people can argue that contradictory things make sense when they don't. Supernatural Strength is vastly stronger than normal strength and normal strength adds to normal SDC damage yet will insist that there's some kind of cap in reality whereby once you're supernaturally strong it no longer adds to anything. Well except where it does. All the excuses given just fail because they're all trying to justify an arbitrary rule that 'Supernatural Strength no longer adds to Weapon damage', a rule made as arbitrarily as a GM going 'uh no sulfuric acid doesn't burn stuff and is safe to drink' for no other reason than his PC group has started using it as an effective means of dealing with the threats in his game so me makes a ridiculous ruling rather than adapt.

Exactly. Nevermind the whole idea of that rule existing as a balancing mechanic. Please, that ship sailed a LONG time ago as far as game balance in Rifts was concerned. This rule doesn't suddenly rectify the copious amounts of inbalance which exist in the game.

And if balance was so important, then there're plenty of ways of implementing it without serving as an insult to people who still possess two functioning brain cells. How about just redoing the Supernatural Strength table so that it does less damage? Or hell, why not have it work EXACTLY as SDC damage, except that it's in MD? I.E. Punches deal 1d4 damage or whatever, and you add the PS weapon bonus to damage, unless you're wielding a weapon, in which case you add the PS bonus to the damage with the weapon. That way when you stack up vibro-weapons, magic weapons, etc, the total damage won't be as much. Either solution would work as an effective balancing tool, reducing the overall damage while still allowing for Gargoyles and the like to use MD weapons without creating the whole silliness of having a Gargoyle with a rune sword inflicting equal damage to a Gargoyle punching barehanded.

[flatline]

The guy with supernatural strength and a supernaturally durable battle axe must do more damage and be more effective than the guy without the axe because the axe improves the effectiveness of the strike.

ONLY according to the laws of physics.
BUT according to the laws of physics, Supernatural PS shouldn't inflict any mega-damage to begin with.

According to the laws of physics, there's no such thing as mega-damage.

--flatline

You really have to wonder how people can argue that contradictory things make sense when they don't. Supernatural Strength is vastly stronger than normal strength and normal strength adds to normal SDC damage yet will insist that there's some kind of cap in reality whereby once you're supernaturally strong it no longer adds to anything. Well except where it does. All the excuses given just fail because they're all trying to justify an arbitrary rule that 'Supernatural Strength no longer adds to Weapon damage', a rule made as arbitrarily as a GM going 'uh no sulfuric acid doesn't burn stuff and is safe to drink' for no other reason than his PC group has started using it as an effective means of dealing with the threats in his game so me makes a ridiculous ruling rather than adapt.

Exactly. Nevermind the whole idea of that rule existing as a balancing mechanic. Please, that ship sailed a LONG time ago as far as game balance in Rifts was concerned. This rule doesn't suddenly rectify the copious amounts of inbalance which exist in the game.

And if balance was so important, then there're plenty of ways of implementing it without serving as an insult to people who still possess two functioning brain cells. How about just redoing the Supernatural Strength table so that it does less damage? Or hell, why not have it work EXACTLY as SDC damage, except that it's in MD? I.E. Punches deal 1d4 damage or whatever, and you add the PS weapon bonus to damage, unless you're wielding a weapon, in which case you add the PS bonus to the damage with the weapon. That way when you stack up vibro-weapons, magic weapons, etc, the total damage won't be as much. Either solution would work as an effective balancing tool, reducing the overall damage while still allowing for Gargoyles and the like to use MD weapons without creating the whole silliness of having a Gargoyle with a rune sword inflicting equal damage to a Gargoyle punching barehanded.

Easiest solution is to just get rid mega-damage entirely and, perhaps, give super natural strength a bonus to bypass AR (or penetration values, if you use those instead).

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

i am asking where does it give any rule that there is any difference that magic MD sword gets different bonuses added to it than a MD technological sword, then a supernatural str?
As in your comment suggest you believe that they are doing different types of damage and are under different game mechanics for how they proceed.

My comment was that mega-damage weapons are not comparable to two-by-fours.
I'm not sure how that would suggest what you say.

So explain again, without using real-life science, why supernatural strength damage should stack with melee weapons?

Because it is one thing to explain the sciences in the game world of weapons that the players themselves would need to be a versed in multiple sciences to understand that a particle beam would function differently or robotic mechanics really function like this.. ext ext, then there is more common logic, that something like str increases the force of a melee weapon, and if talking about MD, then it is the same except to the x100 degree.

It is also another that str in general should follow the same suit regardless of what category it is in. So sdc, robotic, SN md should all follow the same structure for how they function in game. They all get a bonus derrived from the same way or they do not.

You seem to be basing your claims on what you think that Supernatural Strength should be, rather than what it actually IS.
Supernatural PS isn't "MD Strength." The lowest tier inflicts SDC damage in Rifts, and none of the tiers inflict MD in other settings (PFRPG, HU, etc.).

Where do they say what, exactly?
That the MD inflicted by Supernatural PS is NOT because the creature is that strong?
-In the description of Supernatural PS where it specifies that Supernatural PS defies the laws of physics.
-In the rules for PS damage bonus, where a supernatural creature with PS 16+ has the exact same damage bonus as a normal human with PS 16+.
-In the rules that show that a normal human who is just as strong as a supernatural creature inflicts hundreds of times less damage.

All of these places show that the punch damage is not inflicted by physical strength, but rather by supernatural effect.

In same order of your hyphens,
-Ya, defies the laws of physics because they are incredibly stronger than a human could ever be, because they are stronger than sdc robots which would be already much stronger than a sdc human, hence why they can punch for insane mega damage.

No, "defies the laws of physics" because they inflict more damage than their strength would allow.
"Stronger than a human could be" doesn't "defy the laws of physics."
There's LOTS of stuff stronger than humans could be, in the real world and the game, but that doesn't mean that it "defies the laws of physics."
"Defies the laws of physics" means exactly what it says: it provides effects that do not make any sense in accordance to science.
Like inflicting hundreds of times more damage than it should, and/or not applying leverage as it would normally occur.

Or, look at it this way:
IF supernatural creatures were really just SO strong that they inflicted mega-damage with their punches, THEN they would inflict the same level of damage in every setting.
IF being able to lift 100x your PS score really meant that you inflict hundreds of times more punch damage than normal strength people, then the damage tables in PFRPG would be the same as in Rifts, because the lift/carry ratios are the same.
A supernatural creature with PS 30 in Palladium Fantasy World can lift 3,000 lbs. His punch inflicts 2d4x10 SDC, less than 1 MD.
The exact same supernatural creature on the world of Rifts Earth can lift the exact same amount. He can still only lift 3,000 lbs.
But suddenly his punch damage inflicts 1d6x10 MD, the equivalent of well over 1d6x10 times MORE than his previous best punch.
Why can he suddenly punch for so much mega-damage, when his previous best was less than 1 MD, and when his PS score hasn't changed, and his lift/carry weights haven't changed?
[u]Because his punch damage is a supernatural effect, not a natural effect."

Unless you have a better explanation that fits the facts?

-Your extrapolating, but because they have the same sdc punch str bonus doesnt mean they are of equal str. RUE 286 shows that they are not considered the same strength, as a SN can carry and lift much more than the sdc str. If anything I would think the sdc str bonus damage is this way because author wants to 'balance' it this way, not to mention some mdc SN creatures become sdc in non magic environments.

Author balance might explain it, but supernatural creatures being SDC sometimes wouldn't, because the discrepancy you're pointing out is entirely an SDC issue: the damage bonus is SDC, lift/carry ratios are not a mega-damage issue.
Personally, I be more likely to think that the authors were just sloppy in this area.

But it could also be simply that the lift/carry ratio is actually a mystic effect, not a physical effect, similar to stuff like Mystic Fulcrum (BoM 98).
Note the effects of the spell:
Mystic Fulcrum is another spell that defies or tweaks the laws of physics. Those enchanted by the magic can pick up and move objects that they would otherwise not have the leverage and ability to do without a lever and support. Those enchanted by Mystic Fulcrum can lift 50% more weight than usual and carry 10% more.
Not only does this spell demonstrate that lift/carry ratios can be altered by mystically compensating for leverage, allowing people/creatures to lift/carry more than they normally would, it even uses the same terminology that is used in the description of Supernatural PS: "Defies the laws of physics."
So I'd say that if anything, the SDC damage bonus and PS attribute score would be more solid evidence of a person/creature's actual muscle-power than their lift/carry ratio.

Am i missing your comparison that a LAW rocket exploding is comparable to a sword with different str users? Because one is static force, the other is not.

Why do you assume that a LAW rocket explosion is static force, but that a magic weapon is not?
IF I'm reading you right, you seem to be saying, "yeah, but the damage from a LAW comes from the explosion, not from the force at which the rocket is propelled."
But claiming that as a difference would indicate that you think that the force that a MD sword is swung is where the damage is from... and I simply don't see that being really represented in the rules.
Which is my point.
According to the rules, if a human with PS 20 picks up a vibro-blade and stabs somebody, the target takes 1d6 MD (10x the force of a standard LAW).
Does it really make sense to claim that that kind of damage, enough damage to destroy 2 modern day cars or up to 6 motorcycles, comes from the force of the sword swinging through the air?
Especially when an 8 year-old child could inflict the exact same amount of damage with the same weapon?

The mechanics of the system are the physics of the game world.

As in there is the rule system, (carrying / lifting capacity), then there is the flavor text that describes how they would like something to be but in the game it is far from.
-so a dragon in flavor text might be described as being able to lift or throw things much greater than the actual rule system states, or as many people favorite, the Triax Devestator main gun, if (not sure they describe it) they did describe it they would prolly say how it can not only devestate your grandma, but your entire football field in just one amazing super blast. Then you see the rule which is soo far from that descriptions reality.
-China two for eg. has a rule panel for effects on abilities outside china, or a spells mechanics, not its flavor text.

To me it seems you argue with both in mind at the same time where as I view them as to separate entities that do not necessarily effect the other.

Not sure what you're saying there.
Flavor text is less canon regarding the game world than the rules are, if that clarifies anything.

[Killer Cyborg]

The guy with supernatural strength and a supernaturally durable battle axe must do more damage and be more effective than the guy without the axe because the axe improves the effectiveness of the strike.

ONLY according to the laws of physics.
BUT according to the laws of physics, Supernatural PS shouldn't inflict any mega-damage to begin with.

According to the laws of physics, there's no such thing as mega-damage.

--flatline

According to the laws of real-world physics, we do not have any evidence to support the existence of Mega-Damage.
But according to the physics of the game, Mega-Damage is real, and in perfect accidence with the physics of the game world, the physics that the books are referring to when they refer to Supernatural Strength being able to "defy the laws of physics."

[Killer Cyborg]

Supernatural Strength is vastly stronger than normal strength

No, it's not.
It's simply a different kind of strength that has certain mystic effects that normal people don't get.

People tend to assume that Supernatural PS is drastically stronger than normal strength because the punch damage is so high... but as I've repeatedly demonstrated, their actual physical strength is nowhere NEAR enough to justify that kind of damage.
But apparently that absurdly over-powered BOOST to supernatural creatures isn't enough, and people want them to be able to stack their magically-enhanced punches with other weapons.
While people are free to play however they like, playing THAT way doesn't make any sense, especially when the claim is pretending to come from a stance of "physics," when physics was tossed out the window the moment that Supernatural PS could inflict ANY mega-damage at all.

[Nightmask]

I think you're missing a very salient point, supernatural creatures tend to be fighting other supernatural creatures, and unfortunately for your position 'how much damage you do' IS what counts first and foremost. Creatures don't develop weapons because 'well I can get some bonuses to hit an opponent', they develop them because they let them deal more damage and improve their survival chances in a fight. Supernaturally strong creatures want weapons for the same reason anyone else does if not moreso, to deal better damage to a foe than being unarmed. When your opponent likely regenerates perhaps even faster than you do you want to deal better damage than what you can do without a weapon. Weapon training to be able to strike better came after, and the reason why they learned how to strike better? Because they want to be able to deal better damage than unarmed and have more of a chance to do so.

I’m really not missing any points on this topic, and your response doesn’t say anything about what I have stated.
You are stating your opinion about how things should work, in your opinion.
And I am making the case that there are other considerations one has to make, when considering the bonuses one gets when wielding a weapon.
As usual you come over the top of my thoughts, By making exceedingly invalid statements such as…

So you think when someone else makes a point it's 'just an opinion' whereas you're 'making a case'. Clearly you're missing the point that you're tossing out an opinion that fails due to the actual facts involved in the actual discussion.

I think you're missing a very salient point, supernatural creatures tend to be fighting other supernatural creatures, and unfortunately for your position 'how much damage you do' IS what counts first and foremost.

You have to hit your opponents first in order to do damage-such is the bonus granted to someone wielding a sword vs someone who is not.

Putting the cart before the horse, first one develops the weapon so they can do better damage THEN they realize they need to practice and learn how to strike more effectively. Another flaw in your point there is why would you bother with weapons in the first place when you'd simply learn a HtH skill to improve your ability to strike? 'Gee why am I using this dagger when doesn't help me any? I should just learn to punch better.'

Creatures don't develop weapons because 'well I can get some bonuses to hit an opponent', they develop them because they let them deal more damage and improve their survival chances in a fight.

This is exactly why weapons are developed: Why is a M-16 better than a pistol at long range? The better to shoot you with my dear…. Why is a sword better than a knife? The better to stab you with my dear…
Reach is more important and the skill to wield a weapon than damage, weapons are used and developed for a variety of purposes dependent on who is wielding a weapon; which is why so many different types of weapons are developed.

Sorry but this is a discussion about melee weapons NOT about modern automatic firearms. They aren't relevant to the discussion at hand. You're also leaving off that the sword is going to deal more damage in the hands of someone stronger, as will the dagger, as both weapons are dependent on how strong you are for some of their damage. Their damage dealing isn't independent of strength.

Supernaturally strong creatures want weapons for the same reason anyone else does if not moreso, to deal better damage to a foe than being unarmed.

Most supernatural creatures do not really need the trappings of mortals; this is stated well by K.S. many times throughout the text of Palladium Books. Weapons included, which is why by canon they don’t stack (unless specifically stated within the text).

Have you paid attention to just how many supernatural creatures have and use weapons? That the Splugorth churn out magical weapons all over the place? That's also a ridiculous response 'well they don't stack because they don't need them'. 'Gee you're a supernatural creature so you don't need ANYTHING including that Axe of yours so here's an arbitrary rule that says if you don't need something then it doesn't work for you so that Axe won't cut anyone or hurt them anymore than your bare hands will.'

When your opponent likely regenerates perhaps even faster than you do you want to deal better damage than what you can do without a weapon.

This is irrelevant… “Wanting to deal more damage?” unfortunately when your opponent is bigger and stronger than you-you must adapt your tactics, such as in reality.

How ridiculous, to dismiss the main reason for a weapon as 'irrelevant'. Especially when your opponent is bigger and stronger and you have even MORE reason to need to deal more damage to him. If your opponent heals faster than you can damage it he's going to eliminate you, so you have to be able to deal damage faster than he can heal it. Ergo you need weapons so you can take your unarmed damage and replace it with the superior armed damage.

Weapon training to be able to strike better came after, and the reason why they learned how to strike better?
Because they want to be able to deal better damage than unarmed and have more of a chance to do so.

The only statement I agree with, which in fact makes my point. How is it you will have more of a chance to strike your opponent then? Bonuses to strike, which will be afforded to you, if you have the appropriate skill.

Which fails as I noted earlier because you can learn how to strike better via unarmed combat training, if the weapon's pointless beyond giving you better ability to hit someone you toss the weapon and simply focus on improving your bare hand technique.

Really, if you want to insist there's a magical law built into Rifts whereby weapons stop working once someone's supernaturally strong you can but logically that's simply nonsense. An indestructible rune weapon doesn't magically stop dealing damage because its wielder can deal 2d4x10 MD and the weapon deals 1d4x10 MD. Supernaturally strong creatures don't have some kind of magical limiter that says they can't use weapons 'because you're so strong you don't need it'. All those magical weapons churned out by giants and gods weren't produced because 'well I need a few more bonuses to hit' but because 'I want to devastate my opponent and raw strength just isn't enough I need to add to that more'.

Again you need to go back a read what I have written-
Clearly if you understood what I was saying-
You would not be making such statements-
There is nothing I can do to really explain my position on the matter any further.
If I had some cliff notes I would lend them too you.

Clearly if you understood what I said you wouldn't say something as ridiculous as 'if you understood what I said you'd see I'm right'. Because clearly you aren't. You make arguments that apply equally to SDC level strength and attacks as it does to MDC yet want to insist that they aren't the same. You deemed the ability to deal extra damage thanks to a weapon as being irrelevant when clearly it isn't (otherwise people wouldn't waste time with making modern weapons more powerful and just focus on accuracy), then want to insist that the stronger you get the LESS damage you can inflict with a weapon until weapons become useless: but only once you get supernaturally strong as somehow magically physics stop working so hitting someone with an indestructible axe can only improve its damage from strength that's not supernatural. Strength that's massively inferior to Supernatural strength.

Really, you just fail across the board trying to make it out that strength stops adding to the kind of damage you can deal just because it's now mega-damage instead of SDC damage or that people developed weapons like swords and clubs because they wanted to increase their accuracy in combat rather than to increase their damage (and pointedly skip acknowledging that HtH combat was developed to increase accuracy in combat for unarmed combat, so people wouldn't develop weapons to increase combat accuracy).

[Nightmask]

You really have to wonder how people can argue that contradictory things make sense when they don't. Supernatural Strength is vastly stronger than normal strength and normal strength adds to normal SDC damage yet will insist that there's some kind of cap in reality whereby once you're supernaturally strong it no longer adds to anything. Well except where it does. All the excuses given just fail because they're all trying to justify an arbitrary rule that 'Supernatural Strength no longer adds to Weapon damage', a rule made as arbitrarily as a GM going 'uh no sulfuric acid doesn't burn stuff and is safe to drink' for no other reason than his PC group has started using it as an effective means of dealing with the threats in his game so me makes a ridiculous ruling rather than adapt.

Exactly. Nevermind the whole idea of that rule existing as a balancing mechanic. Please, that ship sailed a LONG time ago as far as game balance in Rifts was concerned. This rule doesn't suddenly rectify the copious amounts of inbalance which exist in the game.

And if balance was so important, then there're plenty of ways of implementing it without serving as an insult to people who still possess two functioning brain cells. How about just redoing the Supernatural Strength table so that it does less damage? Or hell, why not have it work EXACTLY as SDC damage, except that it's in MD? I.E. Punches deal 1d4 damage or whatever, and you add the PS weapon bonus to damage, unless you're wielding a weapon, in which case you add the PS bonus to the damage with the weapon. That way when you stack up vibro-weapons, magic weapons, etc, the total damage won't be as much. Either solution would work as an effective balancing tool, reducing the overall damage while still allowing for Gargoyles and the like to use MD weapons without creating the whole silliness of having a Gargoyle with a rune sword inflicting equal damage to a Gargoyle punching barehanded.

Easiest solution is to just get rid mega-damage entirely and, perhaps, give super natural strength a bonus to bypass AR (or penetration values, if you use those instead).

--flatline

Easiest solution is to recognize it's not a problem to begin with and not make arbitrary rules that violate suspension of disbelief.

It's also amusing that if you look at Heroes Unlimited for the power of Supernatural PS it makes it quite clear that the damage from Supernatural PS adds to the damage from weapons, it just has to be a weapon that can handle that kind of damage inflicting without breaking from the stress. Imagine how ridiculous that would be, HU character with Supernatural PS and an indestructible magical weapon ends up on Rifts and suddenly 'hey my weapon don't work no more, I hit stuff and the only damage I'm dealing is what I'd deal without a weapon at all'.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's also amusing that if you look at Heroes Unlimited for the power of Supernatural PS it makes it quite clear that the damage from Supernatural PS adds to the damage from weapons, it just has to be a weapon that can handle that kind of damage inflicting without breaking from the stress.

HU, 294
When wielding a melee weapon, such as swords, clubs and knives, a supernatural being inflicts the weapon damage plus PS damage as described in the previous table.

Huh.
Yup. It does say that, in HU.

Offhand, I'd say that this indicates one or two things:
1. Palladium changes their mind on how supernatural PS works in conjunction with weapons (which seems pretty clear already)
2. The Supernatural Strength power doesn't function like normal Supernatural PS (which seems pretty clear already due to the different lift/carry ratios, as well as bonuses like slower fatigue, bonuses to pull punch, etc.)

This does provide some evidence that Palladium actually DID intend Supernatural PS to function that way as a rule, that the Gargoyle weapons were intended at one point to set a precedent, or to demonstrate one, rather than to be isolated weapons.
But that still doesn't make the "punch+weapon damage" rule make any real sense, it doesn't represent the original rules, and it doesn't change the current rules.

Imagine how ridiculous that would be, HU character with Supernatural PS and an indestructible magical weapon ends up on Rifts and suddenly 'hey my weapon don't work no more, I hit stuff and the only damage I'm dealing is what I'd deal without a weapon at all'.

About as ridiculous as if a HU character with Supernatural PS and an indestructible magic weapon ended up on Rifts Earth, and suddenly could only carry 1/6th of what he could on HU Earth, could only lift 1/5 of what he could carry on HU Earth, but could somehow punch for 5d6 MD instead of for 6d6 SDC (roughly 83x more maximum damage)?

Nah... what you describe is nowhere NEAR as ridiculous.

[flatline]

You really have to wonder how people can argue that contradictory things make sense when they don't. Supernatural Strength is vastly stronger than normal strength and normal strength adds to normal SDC damage yet will insist that there's some kind of cap in reality whereby once you're supernaturally strong it no longer adds to anything. Well except where it does. All the excuses given just fail because they're all trying to justify an arbitrary rule that 'Supernatural Strength no longer adds to Weapon damage', a rule made as arbitrarily as a GM going 'uh no sulfuric acid doesn't burn stuff and is safe to drink' for no other reason than his PC group has started using it as an effective means of dealing with the threats in his game so me makes a ridiculous ruling rather than adapt.

Exactly. Nevermind the whole idea of that rule existing as a balancing mechanic. Please, that ship sailed a LONG time ago as far as game balance in Rifts was concerned. This rule doesn't suddenly rectify the copious amounts of inbalance which exist in the game.

And if balance was so important, then there're plenty of ways of implementing it without serving as an insult to people who still possess two functioning brain cells. How about just redoing the Supernatural Strength table so that it does less damage? Or hell, why not have it work EXACTLY as SDC damage, except that it's in MD? I.E. Punches deal 1d4 damage or whatever, and you add the PS weapon bonus to damage, unless you're wielding a weapon, in which case you add the PS bonus to the damage with the weapon. That way when you stack up vibro-weapons, magic weapons, etc, the total damage won't be as much. Either solution would work as an effective balancing tool, reducing the overall damage while still allowing for Gargoyles and the like to use MD weapons without creating the whole silliness of having a Gargoyle with a rune sword inflicting equal damage to a Gargoyle punching barehanded.

Easiest solution is to just get rid mega-damage entirely and, perhaps, give super natural strength a bonus to bypass AR (or penetration values, if you use those instead).

--flatline

Easiest solution is to recognize it's not a problem to begin with and not make arbitrary rules that violate suspension of disbelief.

Correct, deciding the problem isn't a problem is always an option. Although living with the problem may not be easier than solving it. It's your call.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

Again you need to go back a read what I have written-
Clearly if you understood what I was saying-
You would not be making such statements-
There is nothing I can do to really explain my position on the matter any further.
If I had some cliff notes I would lend them too you.

Clearly if you understood what I said you wouldn't say something as ridiculous as 'if you understood what I said you'd see I'm right'. Because clearly you aren't. You make arguments that apply equally to SDC level strength and attacks as it does to MDC yet want to insist that they aren't the same. You deemed the ability to deal extra damage thanks to a weapon as being irrelevant when clearly it isn't (otherwise people wouldn't waste time with making modern weapons more powerful and just focus on accuracy), then want to insist that the stronger you get the LESS damage you can inflict with a weapon until weapons become useless: but only once you get supernaturally strong as somehow magically physics stop working so hitting someone with an indestructible axe can only improve its damage from strength that's not supernatural. Strength that's massively inferior to Supernatural strength.

Really, you just fail across the board trying to make it out that strength stops adding to the kind of damage you can deal just because it's now mega-damage instead of SDC damage or that people developed weapons like swords and clubs because they wanted to increase their accuracy in combat rather than to increase their damage (and pointedly skip acknowledging that HtH combat was developed to increase accuracy in combat for unarmed combat, so people wouldn't develop weapons to increase combat accuracy).

Your really crackin me up-are you messin with me?

I'm the one who should be asking that of you, if you honestly think people developed weapons so they could train with them to be more accurate in a fight, not because they developed them to deal better damage to a target and decided to develop the accuracy with training after, or that you actually think there's a magical cap on living things so that while weapons stop working for them once they can inflict mega-damage technological items can continue to keep going right on up without limit. Because you must be messing with me if you keep insisting super-strong guy X can add his SDC level strength damage to his melee weapons but even stronger supernatural strong guy Y can't do the same thing with his supernaturally strong weapon. Or continue to insist that supernatural creatures have no use for weapons when nearly all of them make and use weapons which they wouldn't do if they didn't improve their ability to deal damage.

[Nightmask]

I'm the one who should be asking that of you, if you honestly think people developed weapons so they could train with them to be more accurate in a fight, not because they developed them to deal better damage to a target and decided to develop the accuracy with training after, or that you actually think there's a magical cap on living things so that while weapons stop working for them once they can inflict mega-damage technological items can continue to keep going right on up without limit. Because you must be messing with me if you keep insisting super-strong guy X can add his SDC level strength damage to his melee weapons but even stronger supernatural strong guy Y can't do the same thing with his supernaturally strong weapon. Or continue to insist that supernatural creatures have no use for weapons when nearly all of them make and use weapons which they wouldn't do if they didn't improve their ability to deal damage.

Yep-your messin with me and you are having an argument with yourself now-about what you think I think-and filling in the gaps for me--By all means talk to yourself about it.

and don't forget to ask the "Me which is inside your head" to fill in the answers as well...

Right, so when you said 'damage is irrelevant and people developed weapons so they could train with them for better combat bonuses to hit rather than to inflict more damage' you now claim you never said it at all. Yep, you're clearly delusional or trolling and not worth wasting time with on anything further.

[Nether]

@KC and general

So even if we take the realistic science out of it,

then they should at least standardize the str+wep rule across the board, and i would still think they add.

I know you dont think it makes sense based on your examples, but i think your examples would be the issue, not the other way around.

They have established str damage bonus + wep already, they should follow thru with that to augmented, robotic and SN. The Lift/carry should be adjusted to be a bit more appropriate.

As for doing far more damage (MD) than what your PS score should allow, well I see that as a balancing design and nothing to do with logic as the whole str system is a mess. The authors prolly didnt want you to stat PS scores in the 100's as that number is grossly higher than the other stats, not to mention that I dont see alot of mechanical common sense, as in str score matches up to robotic/SN damage ratings, lift/carry fits to the damage your doing ext. This concept is furthered by weapon damages in general, pistols doing more damage than rifles, big devesator main guns doing less than a heavy rifle, heavy weapons just dont seem like heavy weapons.

I think the sdc design set the precedence for how it should have went moving forward for any str levels.

Also sidenote, all the other non Rifts games that have SN str don't have mega damage so anything they say there isnt in context with Rifts which does have Mega damage.

Also i really do think SN str is the strongest of them all, which is shown in Rifts to have the best carry/lift capability suggesting it is superior in that regard, even if it doesnt match up with the kind of damage being done, but then again robotic str doesnt match up with the mega damage it is doing either.

And lastly, you mentioned that supernatural on non mega damage worlds comes down, but I thought that was for only some SN str creatures, though i might be wrong there. But the flip to that is, no gm in his right mind would ever allow mdc tech into a sdc world otherwise players will just own it. Is there any rule for taking the MD to Sdc worlds or is it more of a unspoken rule that you just dont do that?

App i didnt respond to your points as in a rush, but also i find i loose my focus when focusing too much on only points and not keeping the overall goal in mind.

[Killer Cyborg]

@KC and general

So even if we take the realistic science out of it,

... which you would HAVE to do in order for Supernatural PS to inflict MD in the first place...

then they should at least standardize the str+wep rule across the board,

If you mean that they should pick one system and stick with it, instead of having some weapons in some books work one way, or some powers in some books work one way, and official rules in other books work other ways, then I agree- if nothing else, they should pick one rule and have it apply across the board.

They have established str damage bonus + wep already, they should follow thru with that to augmented, robotic and SN.

Well, they tried having the PS damage bonus count toward MD weapons already, back in SB1, with robots.
They later changed it.
I'm betting that the reason was because it was too easy to get massive damage bonuses that made the dice irrelevant. I once ported in robot made for Heroes Unlimited that, due to a lack of PS limitation rules at the time, could inflict 1d6+110 MD per blade with his paired vibro-blades.
But even a lower robotic PS that's easier to obtain, like PS 40, would be pretty devastating, inflicting +25 MD per strike in addition to weapon/punch damage.

The Lift/carry should be adjusted to be a bit more appropriate.

I'd still say that the lift/carry is okay, it's the damage that needs to be pulled down.
Unless you want people lifting buildings and mountains, boosting the lift/carry weights to meet the damages listed would just make things even more unreasonable.

As for doing far more damage (MD) than what your PS score should allow, well I see that as a balancing design and nothing to do with logic as the whole str system is a mess.

It is a mess in a lot of ways, but I'd hate to think that Palladium never noticed that boosting punch damage by hundreds of times, while leaving lift/carry weights the same, wouldn't make any sense.

Also sidenote, all the other non Rifts games that have SN str don't have mega damage so anything they say there isnt in context with Rifts which does have Mega damage.

As I believe you have pointed out, Mega-Damage is in many ways just shorthand for "x100 SDC".
So unless something inflicts hundreds of SDC damage in its home world, it shouldn't inflict mega-damage in Rifts... unless the damage is caused by magical effects rather than the normal laws of physics.
If you take a sword from Palladium Fantasy World, it does the same damage on Rifts Earth than it does on Palladium.
If you take a magic sword (or spell, or whatever) from Palladium, it does far more damage on Rifts Earth than it does on Palladium, because the magical energy of Rifts Earth is so high that magical effects usually get boosted.

If you take a supernatural creature from Palladium (where the creature inflicts SDC), it does far more damage on Rifts Earth than it does on Palladium, because...
a) Like a normal sword, it obeys the laws of physics, and the damage remains constant?
or
b) Like other magical weapons/effects, the damage output is boosted up to mega-damage levels on Rifts Earth, without the physics of the weapon/effect changing?

I have to go with B, because A doesn't make any sense.

But the flip to that is, no gm in his right mind would ever allow mdc tech into a sdc world otherwise players will just own it.

I've allowed it before. The PCs that went to N&S world ended up getting blown up by a nuke.
It's really not as problematic as one might expect, unless one expects to run normal adventures, dungeon-crawls and such.

Is there any rule for taking the MD to Sdc worlds or is it more of a unspoken rule that you just dont do that?

It's official now, but didn't use to be.

App i didnt respond to your points as in a rush, but also i find i loose my focus when focusing too much on only points and not keeping the overall goal in mind.[/quote]

[Armorlord]

Argh, this thread is.. you know, nevermind what this thread is, let's take a stab at illuminating the situation.

Ok?
Ok!

First, hop over to the Palladium Fantasy world, and grab a magic sword. Just about any kind of magic will do, though for purposes of this demonstration you should grab one that doesn't effect the base damage at all.
Got your's? Good, good. Me, I grabbed a nice cutlass that continuously glows blue! Neat!

Alright, now I need you to hit that peasant-y looking fellow over there in the face with it. Don't worry, he deserves, trust me.

Ouch! That had to hurt. I'd say about 2D4 worth of pain and suffering there.

Ok, now run for it. I said he deserved it, not that he'd appreciate it.
Go hide behind that big piece of granite over there.

Good, I think you lost him. Now I want you to hit that chunk of granite as hard as you can.
Yes, I know that is terrible for the blade.

Damn, that was a bit loud. Hope that guy doesn't find us here.
Let us take a look at what we've accomplished, shall we?
Hey, you left a slight scratch in the rock, neat! How's the blade holding up?
..Ugh, alright, go sharpen it again before we go to the next part.
..
..
Okay! Get that sword ready, we're hopping over to Rifts Earth now!

Alright, you there? Good, goo- ah crap that guy followed you, he must really be pissed about that *****' scar you gave him. Better give him another one, that should scare him off.
..
HOLY ****, YOU CUT OFF HIS EVERYTHING AND MORE! Holy crap man, that was like a hundred times the damage you did before, have you been working out or something? Sharpen your blade with unobtainium or something? Geeze.
Hey, try hitting that granite slab over there, let's see how this goes, shall we?

Wow! You are just carving that **** up, is that tiring you out at all, I mean, that stone is pretty dense..
Not really? The blade is doing most of the work?
Why do you suppose that is?
Is the sword any sharper? Are you any stronger?

If you said it was because of a little magic plus a MD-capable dimension, or some variation on that, you would be correct, and I owe you a cookie!

(For an extend course, repeat with a similarly enchanted spiked gauntlet or duster glove, and then repeat again while wielding the sword in the same hand that is wearing the glove or gauntlet.)

Happy learning!

[Killer Cyborg]

I just use the HU rule for all the games, or other alternative damage rules, because i find Palladium makes damages low, again, because of the " I gotta make my medium MDC armor last the whole campaign, because my gm never lets me get new armor, cause he keeps us broke, or forever in the wilderness, and Staying near a city is nigh impossible for our group. Never you mind that by collecting and selling the armor and weapons from defeated foes, should in theory pay for our repairs, our GM refuses to let us collect cause he fears us owning anything beyond our standard gear"

And to the PPS: " Our group contains only one person with a principled alignment (THE NON LEADER, Even) and the rest are selfish, or moderately not GOOD) and because of them the entire group suffers plot blockage"

Seriously?
Medium armor has like 40-60 MDC, so it's toast usually pretty quick unless you're really, really careful.
Unless you're only fighting foes that do 1d6 MD per hit or something.

[Killer Cyborg]

No, that is a scenario i find frequently in beginner games of rifts, by people who don't like to war game.
the whole quotes part is " Most common GM Scenario". If your GM has glitterboys and whole parties of Demigod magicians This is Definitely NOT the issue going on. The "old school" gm expects the pcs to seldom ever fight and find a non violent solution, or a solution where someone else does the fighting for them, (Cause this type of GM likes to get his ego stroked, and doesn't find joy in rolling dice (Dice-phobics or Larpers, as i call them)....

I don't think that your experience is as common as you seem to believe.

[Killer Cyborg]

power armors are disposable, that's why it's best to be part of a merc unit, or a standing army to get replacements. ... otherwise, they are gone in 2-3 combats.
but again, MANY gms don't like to linger in one area and keep the pc's always on the move.

How is power armor disposable if you're talking about GMs that expect PCs to avoid combat, and expect a suit of medium EBA to last a whole campaign?