Supernatural Strength

[Cyber-Knight]

So I heard that you no longer add weapon damage to Supernatural Strength. Is that true?

For instance, let's say I have a True Atlantean Undead Slayer. He activates his Two Weapons Crossed/Weapon Covered In Flames tattoos to produce a 4d6 MD sword, as well as his Chain with a Broken Link tattoo which grants him supernatural strength, and his PS is about 28, so his punches do 3d6 MD. So how much damage would that Undead Slayer do with a sword strike? 3d6, 4d6, 7d6 or something else?

Let's say you have a Cosmo-Knight with PS 51, so his punches do 1d6x10 MD. He also has a Cosmic Weapon, and he pays 15 points so that it to also does 1d6x10 MD. So how much damage does the Cosmo-Knight do with a strike from his Cosmic Weapon? 1d6x10 MD or 2d6x10 MD?

I'd appreciate some clarifications. Thanks.

[Killer Cyborg]

So I heard that you no longer add weapon damage to Supernatural Strength. Is that true?

You never did, as a rule.

[Cyber-Knight]

Well, *I* did, as did everyone else I ever played with since the 90's. It certainly seems pretty silly in the context of the Cosmo-Knight. What's the point of the massive supernatural strength and the cosmic weapon if their damage doesn't stack?

[Looonatic]

As far as I know, you still do. I still do. But I didn't really see it as adding weapon damage to supernatural strength so much as adding supernatural strength(punch) damage to weapons.

It IS important to note however, that this only applies to weapons that do physical damage. Energy-based weapons don't get that benefit.

[Giant2005]

the Cosmo-Knight's weapon stacks, it is one of the few and the reason it is so formidable.

[Cyber-Knight]

So what book and page is this rule in?

[Giant2005]

So what book and page is this rule in?

RUE 286
CB1r 11
GMG 26

[Cyber-Knight]

RUE 286

I took that section to mean normal SDC weapons, not a MD weapon, like a Vibro-Sword.

GMG 26

Ok, the rule here is different from the rule in RUE. In RUE it says:

Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such as swords, clubs, and knives, supernatural beings inflict either the weapon damage plus PS damage bonus (in SDC), or their own PS damage as per Supernatural Strength, whichever is greater.

In the GMG, though, it says:

Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such as swords, clubs, and knives, supernatural beings inflict either the weapon damage plus PS damage bonus or their basic hand to hand damage (see previous table) plus PS damage bonus, whichever is greater.

So which is it?

[Giant2005]

They are effectively the same thing. Unless your PS is 115 or more, your PS damage bonus isn't going to make a difference in MD combat.

[Cyber-Knight]

That doesn't seem clear at all. We're talking about being who inflict mega-damage bare handed. Why would it explicitly note that they add their PS damage to their hand-to-hand damage (which is mega-damage) if the latter is SDC damage?

[Killer Cyborg]

That doesn't seem clear at all. We're talking about being who inflict mega-damage bare handed. Why would it explicitly note that they add their PS damage to their hand-to-hand damage (which is mega-damage) if the latter is SDC damage?

Because that section was probably cut-and-pasted from PFRPG or another SDC setting.
The RUE quote is the exact same thing, only with added clarification for all the people who tried to use the RGMG passage to add their PS damage bonus in mega-damage.
That's all.
It's like how a first edition of a cookbook might say "add one cup of flour," and the revised version says, "add one cup of flour (NOT one cup of flowers!)."
The later version is clarifying the first, in order to clear things up for people who didn't understand the first time.

As for Supernatural PS, it shouldn't even inflict mega-damage in the first place.
At least, not on the level that it does in the game.

-A normal human with PS of 50 can carry 1,000 lbs, and can lift 2,000 lbs. Their punch damage is 1d4+35 SDC. That's it. That's all the damage that the kind of muscles capable of lifting and carrying that much weight can manage. That's full force. That's physics, as represented in the game world. 36-39 SDC. Less than 1 MD.
-A supernatural creature with PS of 20 can carry 1,000 lbs, and can lift 2,000 lbs. Their punch damage is 1d6 MD, roughly 100-600 SDC.

These two characters are equally strong. They can each lift the same weight as the other one. They can each carry the same weight as the other one.
As far as physics are concerned, they are identical as far as strength goes.
And yet, the supernatural critter can punch for 15+ times more damage than the best punch that the equally-strong normal human can punch for.
If you want to complain about any aspect of Supernatural PS, if you want to point at something and say, "That doesn't make any sense!", then THIS is the place to start.

Supernatural creatures have an insane and illogical boost to their damage-dealing capabilities already.
Complaining that they don't get another insane boost to their damage-dealing capabilities on top of that is like winning a million dollars, then complaining that it wasn't 2 million.

[Johnathan]

That doesn't seem clear at all. We're talking about being who inflict mega-damage bare handed. Why would it explicitly note that they add their PS damage to their hand-to-hand damage (which is mega-damage) if the latter is SDC damage?

Because that section was probably cut-and-pasted from PFRPG or another SDC setting.
The RUE quote is the exact same thing, only with added clarification for all the people who tried to use the RGMG passage to add their PS damage bonus in mega-damage.
That's all.
It's like how a first edition of a cookbook might say "add one cup of flour," and the revised version says, "add one cup of flour (NOT one cup of flowers!)."
The later version is clarifying the first, in order to clear things up for people who didn't understand the first time.

As for Supernatural PS, it shouldn't even inflict mega-damage in the first place.
At least, not on the level that it does in the game.

-A normal human with PS of 50 can carry 1,000 lbs, and can lift 2,000 lbs. Their punch damage is 1d4+35 SDC. That's it. That's all the damage that the kind of muscles capable of lifting and carrying that much weight can manage. That's full force. That's physics, as represented in the game world. 36-39 SDC. Less than 1 MD.
-A supernatural creature with PS of 20 can carry 1,000 lbs, and can lift 2,000 lbs. Their punch damage is 1d6 MD, roughly 100-600 SDC.

These two characters are equally strong. They can each lift the same weight as the other one. They can each carry the same weight as the other one.
As far as physics are concerned, they are identical as far as strength goes.
And yet, the supernatural critter can punch for 15+ times more damage than the best punch that the equally-strong normal human can punch for.
If you want to complain about any aspect of Supernatural PS, if you want to point at something and say, "That doesn't make any sense!", then THIS is the place to start.

Supernatural creatures have an insane and illogical boost to their damage-dealing capabilities already.
Complaining that they don't get another insane boost to their damage-dealing capabilities on top of that is like winning a million dollars, then complaining that it wasn't 2 million.

I recall seeing this quote in someone's signature here on the forums, though I do not remember either whose signature it was nor who they were quoting. However, it went something along these lines: "It's RIFTS. It doesn't have to make sense."

Time and time again, we have seen that there are just certain things about RIFTS, Supernatural Critters, Creatures of Magic, etc. that just does NOT make logical sense. As well as time and time again, the response comes down to, essentially, the aforementioned quote: "It doesn't have to make sense. It's X, Y and/or Z!"

It's stated, multiple times, in multiple places that a lot of these things do NOT make sense, and defy the general laws of convention that govern the scientific world. I'm reminded of a discussion that was done in a previous gaming group about Dragons and flying. We determined that it was physically impossible for a Dragon to fly under it's own power based upon Strength vs. Weight, in accordance with the canon of RIFTS... So... we had to then determine that a Dragon's supernatural strength either had to comply with the HU2 version (See Major Super Power) of Supernatural Strength, or that the Dragon's ability to fly was just as much a mystical thing as it was a physical thing and defied the general rules of physics.

So, here we stand, at the cusp of the same argument of Fantasy vs. Reality. Does it make sense in accordance with our knowledge of the rules that govern our universe? No.

Does it have to? Nope. Sure doesn't.

Why? Because it's a game. Not just any game, but a psuedo-fictional fantasy RPG that takes place in a post-apocalyptic version of Earth where monsters, magic, dragons, unicorns, faeries, demons and all manner of other beings that the scientific community, as a whole, generally consent do NOT exist and have NEVER existed.

Just my two cents...

[Nightmask]

That doesn't seem clear at all. We're talking about being who inflict mega-damage bare handed. Why would it explicitly note that they add their PS damage to their hand-to-hand damage (which is mega-damage) if the latter is SDC damage?

PS bonuses are in SDC

Although the wording doesn't imply the PS bonuses as per the table but instead the revised PS damage as per the Supernatural Strength table being added to the weapon's damage.

[Killer Cyborg]

That doesn't seem clear at all. We're talking about being who inflict mega-damage bare handed. Why would it explicitly note that they add their PS damage to their hand-to-hand damage (which is mega-damage) if the latter is SDC damage?

Because that section was probably cut-and-pasted from PFRPG or another SDC setting.
The RUE quote is the exact same thing, only with added clarification for all the people who tried to use the RGMG passage to add their PS damage bonus in mega-damage.
That's all.
It's like how a first edition of a cookbook might say "add one cup of flour," and the revised version says, "add one cup of flour (NOT one cup of flowers!)."
The later version is clarifying the first, in order to clear things up for people who didn't understand the first time.

As for Supernatural PS, it shouldn't even inflict mega-damage in the first place.
At least, not on the level that it does in the game.

-A normal human with PS of 50 can carry 1,000 lbs, and can lift 2,000 lbs. Their punch damage is 1d4+35 SDC. That's it. That's all the damage that the kind of muscles capable of lifting and carrying that much weight can manage. That's full force. That's physics, as represented in the game world. 36-39 SDC. Less than 1 MD.
-A supernatural creature with PS of 20 can carry 1,000 lbs, and can lift 2,000 lbs. Their punch damage is 1d6 MD, roughly 100-600 SDC.

These two characters are equally strong. They can each lift the same weight as the other one. They can each carry the same weight as the other one.
As far as physics are concerned, they are identical as far as strength goes.
And yet, the supernatural critter can punch for 15+ times more damage than the best punch that the equally-strong normal human can punch for.
If you want to complain about any aspect of Supernatural PS, if you want to point at something and say, "That doesn't make any sense!", then THIS is the place to start.

Supernatural creatures have an insane and illogical boost to their damage-dealing capabilities already.
Complaining that they don't get another insane boost to their damage-dealing capabilities on top of that is like winning a million dollars, then complaining that it wasn't 2 million.

I recall seeing this quote in someone's signature here on the forums, though I do not remember either whose signature it was nor who they were quoting. However, it went something along these lines: "It's RIFTS. It doesn't have to make sense."

Time and time again, we have seen that there are just certain things about RIFTS, Supernatural Critters, Creatures of Magic, etc. that just does NOT make logical sense. As well as time and time again, the response comes down to, essentially, the aforementioned quote: "It doesn't have to make sense. It's X, Y and/or Z!"

It's stated, multiple times, in multiple places that a lot of these things do NOT make sense, and defy the general laws of convention that govern the scientific world. I'm reminded of a discussion that was done in a previous gaming group about Dragons and flying. We determined that it was physically impossible for a Dragon to fly under it's own power based upon Strength vs. Weight, in accordance with the canon of RIFTS... So... we had to then determine that a Dragon's supernatural strength either had to comply with the HU2 version (See Major Super Power) of Supernatural Strength, or that the Dragon's ability to fly was just as much a mystical thing as it was a physical thing and defied the general rules of physics.

So, here we stand, at the cusp of the same argument of Fantasy vs. Reality. Does it make sense in accordance with our knowledge of the rules that govern our universe? No.

Does it have to? Nope. Sure doesn't.

Why? Because it's a game. Not just any game, but a psuedo-fictional fantasy RPG that takes place in a post-apocalyptic version of Earth where monsters, magic, dragons, unicorns, faeries, demons and all manner of other beings that the scientific community, as a whole, generally consent do NOT exist and have NEVER existed.

Just my two cents...

To me, that quote just seems to treat Rifts like some kind of retarded, in-bred child.
"It's just little Bobby; he doesn't have to make sense. He's special.

I don't see ANY reason why Rifts shouldn't make as much sense as any other game. In fact, since I kind of hold Rifts up as one of the better RPGs that I've ever played, I kind of think that it should strive for a higher standard than the norm, that the folks at Palladium has such a good thing going with this game, that they should endeavor to have it make MORE sense than most RPGs, not less.

BUT I agree that there are always things in any sci-fi/fantasy setting that don't make a lot of sense, things that you have to willingly suspend your disbelief for and just play through.
It's just that most people seem to have NO problem with Supernatural PS being absurdly overpowered in the first place... but when they find out it's not book-legal to stack weapon damage with punch damage, THAT's where they start complaining that things don't make sense.
Nonsense that lets them inflict more damage, people are cool with.
Nonsense that prevents them from inflicting even more damage? People complain that "it doesn't make sense."

[Witchcraft]

As Kevin told me when I posed a similar question of him at the Open House...

"Does it work for you? Use it. If it doesn't -- don't."

I think he's rather fond of taking a neutral stance in "rule-interpretation" arguments. Personally, I love the idea that he's given us a set of guidelines and we have the freedom to mix and match and "cobble" together a system we (and the people we play with) agree upon and enjoy. Palladium is a system of building blocks -- 95% of which I employ -- 3% I omit -- and 2% I like to "modify."

Thankfully, that doesn't mean I don't have a floor-to-ceiling bookshelf filled to near-teeming with Palladium "literature."

[Nightmask]

That doesn't seem clear at all. We're talking about being who inflict mega-damage bare handed. Why would it explicitly note that they add their PS damage to their hand-to-hand damage (which is mega-damage) if the latter is SDC damage?

PS bonuses are in SDC

Although the wording doesn't imply the PS bonuses as per the table but instead the revised PS damage as per the Supernatural Strength table being added to the weapon's damage.

I've never seen a table that gave a Supernatural Creature an MD PS bonus.

That's all well and good because I never mentioned any such non-existent table. I mentioned the basic PS strength table and the Supernatural PS table. While you are precluded (except in a few exceptions) from applying the basic PS bonus as a mega-damage bonus for someone with Supernatural PS we aren't talking that table, we're talking the table that lists what damage Supernatural PS does which does add to weapon damage. You don't get the PS SDC bonus added to the weapon damage you add the Supernatural PS damage to the weapon damage. So if you're doing 1d4x10 with your Supernatural PS and 2d4 with your weapon you add the two together to get the final damage.

[Nightmask]

That's all well and good because I never mentioned any such non-existent table. I mentioned the basic PS strength table and the Supernatural PS table. While you are precluded (except in a few exceptions) from applying the basic PS bonus as a mega-damage bonus for someone with Supernatural PS we aren't talking that table, we're talking the table that lists what damage Supernatural PS does which does add to weapon damage. You don't get the PS SDC bonus added to the weapon damage you add the Supernatural PS damage to the weapon damage. So if you're doing 1d4x10 with your Supernatural PS and 2d4 with your weapon you add the two together to get the final damage.

Right, I thought you where talking about Supernatural Strength somehow getting its own PS bonus and adding that to its attacks. I am aware of some of the special weapons that allow for combined damages.

Although like just about every rule around there's contradictions on that, saying you can't in one place but can in another. Logically if you've superior strength and a weapon that can survive it then both should add together, otherwise a supernatural creature would never use melee weapons because they'd add nothing at all to the fight. When it comes to inflicting mega-damage one can look at the damage done by Supernatural Strength as being like adding the SDC bonus for normal physical strength to a regular SDC weapon's attack. Which is why you can't get the PS bonus because the supernatural Strength damage IS the bonus there is no PS bonus to also add in (save again in cases like Thor's Belt of Strength that elevate that trivial damage to Mega-damage levels).

[Nightmask]

That's all well and good because I never mentioned any such non-existent table. I mentioned the basic PS strength table and the Supernatural PS table. While you are precluded (except in a few exceptions) from applying the basic PS bonus as a mega-damage bonus for someone with Supernatural PS we aren't talking that table, we're talking the table that lists what damage Supernatural PS does which does add to weapon damage. You don't get the PS SDC bonus added to the weapon damage you add the Supernatural PS damage to the weapon damage. So if you're doing 1d4x10 with your Supernatural PS and 2d4 with your weapon you add the two together to get the final damage.

Right, I thought you where talking about Supernatural Strength somehow getting its own PS bonus and adding that to its attacks. I am aware of some of the special weapons that allow for combined damages.

Although like just about every rule around there's contradictions on that, saying you can't in one place but can in another. Logically if you've superior strength and a weapon that can survive it then both should add together, otherwise a supernatural creature would never use melee weapons because they'd add nothing at all to the fight. When it comes to inflicting mega-damage one can look at the damage done by Supernatural Strength as being like adding the SDC bonus for normal physical strength to a regular SDC weapon's attack. Which is why you can't get the PS bonus because the supernatural Strength damage IS the bonus there is no PS bonus to also add in (save again in cases like Thor's Belt of Strength that elevate that trivial damage to Mega-damage levels).

You could go with that if you wanted.

Me? I allow it only in certain cases in which the weapon specifically states that it overides the standard Sup PS and melee weapons rules. And theres only a few weapons that I can think of off the top of my head that do that.

Which is quite ridiculous really, if you're an super-strong SDC person with an SDC weapon you end up adding yet contrarily are told that being an order of magnitude more powerful means you have no improvement to your damage at all while using a weapon suitable to handle that strength. So you end up with a lot of supernaturally strong creatures running around with weapons that provide them nothing when the point of a weapon is having it improve how much damage you do.

[Killer Cyborg]

That's all well and good because I never mentioned any such non-existent table. I mentioned the basic PS strength table and the Supernatural PS table. While you are precluded (except in a few exceptions) from applying the basic PS bonus as a mega-damage bonus for someone with Supernatural PS we aren't talking that table, we're talking the table that lists what damage Supernatural PS does which does add to weapon damage. You don't get the PS SDC bonus added to the weapon damage you add the Supernatural PS damage to the weapon damage. So if you're doing 1d4x10 with your Supernatural PS and 2d4 with your weapon you add the two together to get the final damage.

Right, I thought you where talking about Supernatural Strength somehow getting its own PS bonus and adding that to its attacks. I am aware of some of the special weapons that allow for combined damages.

Although like just about every rule around there's contradictions on that, saying you can't in one place but can in another. Logically if you've superior strength and a weapon that can survive it then both should add together, otherwise a supernatural creature would never use melee weapons because they'd add nothing at all to the fight. When it comes to inflicting mega-damage one can look at the damage done by Supernatural Strength as being like adding the SDC bonus for normal physical strength to a regular SDC weapon's attack. Which is why you can't get the PS bonus because the supernatural Strength damage IS the bonus there is no PS bonus to also add in (save again in cases like Thor's Belt of Strength that elevate that trivial damage to Mega-damage levels).

Uh... no.
The PS damage bonus is the PS damage bonus.
The Supernatural Strength & Damage tables only tell how much damage supernatural creatures inflict on certain attacks, not what their damage bonus is.
Their damage bonus is the SDC bonus described in the Attribute Bonus chart.
This is why NPCs with supernatural PS typically still have a "damage bonus" listed in their stats.
This is why the Supernatural Strength & Damage tables in PFRPG (p. 17) mention:
Each description of a supernatural being, monster, or creature of magic will indicate the amount of damage it inflicts (plus PS bonus) from mere punches, kicks and bites.
and
Add the PS damage bonus to all these attacks.

What the Supernatural Strength & Damage tables replace is standard punch damage. Instead of the base 1d4 SDC inflicted by a normal human, supernatural creatures have a new base damage that depends on their PS score, but they still get the same PS damage bonus as anybody else with the same PS score.
In Rifts, the PS damage bonuses are ignored in mega-damage combat because they don't make any significant difference. But they're still there.

For example, if a supernatural creature with PS 14 picks up a melee weapon that inflicts 5d6 SDC, then what you do is to compare the damage of the weapon (plus PS damage bonus) to the creature's punch damage (plus PS damage bonus), and go with whichever one is greater.
5d6+0 > 4d6+0
So the damage with the weapon is 5d6 SDC, 1d6 SDC more than the creature's bare hands.

On the other hand, if the creature picks up a vibro-knife (1d6 MD), then he gets to ignore his punch damage in favor of the weapon damage.
Or if a supernatural creature with PS 20 picks up that 5d6 SDC weapon, then he'll get to inflict his full 1d6 MD instead of the weapon's normal damage.
Or if a supernatural creature with PS 25 picks up a vibro-knife, he gets to inflict his 2d6 MD punch damage instead of the weapon's normal 1d6 MD.

Which is better than it works for most people; few other character types get to replace weapon damage with punch damage.
If a normal human (punch damage 1d4 SDC) picks up a melee weapon that inflicts less than 1d4 SDC damage, they don't get to inflict their 1d4 SDC punch damage when they use the damage- the weapon damage over-rides their punch damage.
Although, like supernatural creatures, they can add their PS damage bonus to the attack.

[nilgravity]

This thread gave me an idea for home brew rules.
What if PS bonus was added to rolls on a successful parry? Player A attacks with their vibro sword rolls a 12 with bonuses. Player B rolls a 15 including bonuses to successfully parry with their rune dagger. But not so fast Player A has a PS bonus of +6, making the adjusted attack 12+6= 18, allowing them to push his/her blade into the defender. Unless Player B has also has a PS bonus (at least a +3) then he takes damage (maybe reduced).
If only one one character has supernatural/robotic strength they automatically overpower or defend.

[Killer Cyborg]

This thread gave me an idea for home brew rules.
What if PS bonus was added to rolls on a successful parry? Player A attacks with their vibro sword rolls a 12 with bonuses. Player B rolls a 15 including bonuses to successfully parry with their rune dagger. But not so fast Player A has a PS bonus of +6, making the adjusted attack 12+6= 18, allowing them to push his/her blade into the defender. Unless Player B has also has a PS bonus (at least a +3) then he takes damage (maybe reduced).
If only one one character has supernatural/robotic strength they automatically overpower or defend.

Hm.
Sounds interesting.

[Pepsi Jedi]

That's all well and good because I never mentioned any such non-existent table. I mentioned the basic PS strength table and the Supernatural PS table. While you are precluded (except in a few exceptions) from applying the basic PS bonus as a mega-damage bonus for someone with Supernatural PS we aren't talking that table, we're talking the table that lists what damage Supernatural PS does which does add to weapon damage. You don't get the PS SDC bonus added to the weapon damage you add the Supernatural PS damage to the weapon damage. So if you're doing 1d4x10 with your Supernatural PS and 2d4 with your weapon you add the two together to get the final damage.

Right, I thought you where talking about Supernatural Strength somehow getting its own PS bonus and adding that to its attacks. I am aware of some of the special weapons that allow for combined damages.

Although like just about every rule around there's contradictions on that, saying you can't in one place but can in another. Logically if you've superior strength and a weapon that can survive it then both should add together, otherwise a supernatural creature would never use melee weapons because they'd add nothing at all to the fight. When it comes to inflicting mega-damage one can look at the damage done by Supernatural Strength as being like adding the SDC bonus for normal physical strength to a regular SDC weapon's attack. Which is why you can't get the PS bonus because the supernatural Strength damage IS the bonus there is no PS bonus to also add in (save again in cases like Thor's Belt of Strength that elevate that trivial damage to Mega-damage levels).

You could go with that if you wanted.

Me? I allow it only in certain cases in which the weapon specifically states that it overides the standard Sup PS and melee weapons rules. And theres only a few weapons that I can think of off the top of my head that do that.

Which is quite ridiculous really, if you're an super-strong SDC person with an SDC weapon you end up adding yet contrarily are told that being an order of magnitude more powerful means you have no improvement to your damage at all while using a weapon suitable to handle that strength. So you end up with a lot of supernaturally strong creatures running around with weapons that provide them nothing when the point of a weapon is having it improve how much damage you do.

Because you're looking at it from the wrong end. If you're supernaturally strong and do more damage with out a weapon than with, you wouldn't use the weapon.

It's like a guy that is strong and what not being able to... punch through a board with his fist.. He's not going to pick up a plastic knife and try and stab his way through it, if he can just punch his way through with out the plastic knife.

"Supernaturally strong" things are damaging in and of themselves, most weapons are a step down from their own abilities. The Weapons that aren't are already in the realm of strength that adding more to it is doubling down. might sound good as per the guy reading a book on it, but in application the fact the weapons do that much damage is already factored in.

[Nightmask]

Which is quite ridiculous really, if you're an super-strong SDC person with an SDC weapon you end up adding yet contrarily are told that being an order of magnitude more powerful means you have no improvement to your damage at all while using a weapon suitable to handle that strength. So you end up with a lot of supernaturally strong creatures running around with weapons that provide them nothing when the point of a weapon is having it improve how much damage you do.

Because you're looking at it from the wrong end. If you're supernaturally strong and do more damage with out a weapon than with, you wouldn't use the weapon.

It's like a guy that is strong and what not being able to... punch through a board with his fist.. He's not going to pick up a plastic knife and try and stab his way through it, if he can just punch his way through with out the plastic knife.

"Supernaturally strong" things are damaging in and of themselves, most weapons are a step down from their own abilities. The Weapons that aren't are already in the realm of strength that adding more to it is doubling down. might sound good as per the guy reading a book on it, but in application the fact the weapons do that much damage is already factored in.

You're arguing an unsupportable point, working backwards to justify an end result instead of forwards. A boxer can do more damage with spikes on his glove than without because however strong he is the weapon improves the destructive potential of his punch. Just like different bullet designs can cause more damage for the same amount of kinetic energy. Supernatural Strength can't do more alone than it can with a weapon because the nature of a weapon is as some would say a force multiplier, it takes one's strength and makes it more effective. The guy with supernatural strength and a supernaturally durable battle axe must do more damage and be more effective than the guy without the axe because the axe improves the effectiveness of the strike. You can't deem the strength irrelevant or the weapon to be because they aren't.

[Killer Cyborg]

The guy with supernatural strength and a supernaturally durable battle axe must do more damage and be more effective than the guy without the axe because the axe improves the effectiveness of the strike.

ONLY according to the laws of physics.
BUT according to the laws of physics, Supernatural PS shouldn't inflict any mega-damage to begin with.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Which is quite ridiculous really, if you're an super-strong SDC person with an SDC weapon you end up adding yet contrarily are told that being an order of magnitude more powerful means you have no improvement to your damage at all while using a weapon suitable to handle that strength. So you end up with a lot of supernaturally strong creatures running around with weapons that provide them nothing when the point of a weapon is having it improve how much damage you do.

Because you're looking at it from the wrong end. If you're supernaturally strong and do more damage with out a weapon than with, you wouldn't use the weapon.

It's like a guy that is strong and what not being able to... punch through a board with his fist.. He's not going to pick up a plastic knife and try and stab his way through it, if he can just punch his way through with out the plastic knife.

"Supernaturally strong" things are damaging in and of themselves, most weapons are a step down from their own abilities. The Weapons that aren't are already in the realm of strength that adding more to it is doubling down. might sound good as per the guy reading a book on it, but in application the fact the weapons do that much damage is already factored in.

You're arguing an unsupportable point, working backwards to justify an end result instead of forwards. A boxer can do more damage with spikes on his glove than without because however strong he is the weapon improves the destructive potential of his punch. Just like different bullet designs can cause more damage for the same amount of kinetic energy. Supernatural Strength can't do more alone than it can with a weapon because the nature of a weapon is as some would say a force multiplier, it takes one's strength and makes it more effective. The guy with supernatural strength and a supernaturally durable battle axe must do more damage and be more effective than the guy without the axe because the axe improves the effectiveness of the strike. You can't deem the strength irrelevant or the weapon to be because they aren't.

Again, it's back to being able to do more damage with your hands than you 'weapon'. If your weapon is pansy compaired to your hands, you're silly to use it.

Supernatural strength is already stronger than most mundane weapons.

It's the difference between punching someone in the stomach with your fist, or hitting someone in the stomach with a styrofoam hammer. Sure the hammer is in addition to your swing strength but it's just not going to do as much as if you just punched him with your much harder fist.

Supernatural creatures have that aspect. Their hands/claws/feet/tails are more damaging than the weaker weapons that might be held in them. I get what you're trying to say, but I don't see the problem you see. In my mind, the Supernatural strength likely destroys weapons if used in this manner. If you have supernatural strength and you swing a baseball bat, the bat is going to shatter. If you do more damage with your hands than with said bat, you wouldn't use the bat. If you swing a sword so harrd you shatter the sword, you wouldn't keep shattering swords. This was reflected in some of the white wolf games. There are weapons, such as magical ones or different MD ones where this aspect might not happen, but those usually ahve their own things going. Rune weapons don't do MD because they're just THAT COOL... they do md because of the magic inside/in their creation. Vibro weapons do MD due to their vibro field. ect.


there's that....

And there's also... "There's mechanics in the game to make it work in most situations. There's always going to be exceptions that the rules can't cover and be 100% realistic. As it's a game, and you can't 100% reflect real life in 'game rules'."

[Nether]

Gotta say I~m with Nightmask on this one. I suspect KC is 'mostly' right in canon though, but there is still a lot of inconsistencies and logic is out the door on this one.

As a side note you cant use PFRPG because they dont do md damage and having a sdc damage bonus on a md strength character makes absolutely no sense. You might say, well what if that dragon wants to only rape you with a sdc weapon on sdc person, well that is what pull punch is for.

imo Nightmask is making alot more sense in this regard.

[Killer Cyborg]

Gotta say I~m with Nightmask on this one. I suspect KC is 'mostly' right in canon though, but there is still a lot of inconsistencies and logic is out the door on this one.

Well, I am right as far as canon goes.
But that doesn't mean that people need to play things that way.

As a side note you cant use PFRPG because they dont do md damage and having a sdc damage bonus on a md strength character makes absolutely no sense.

That's why I did use them. PFRPG illustrates that SDC damage bonuses are NOT the same as the Supernatural Damage tables, which was my point.
So claiming that the Punch Damage IS the "damage bonus" is flat-out incorrect.
If they were the same thing, the damage bonus couldn't stack with the supernatural punch damage, but they do, so they're not. Definitively.

Supernatural punch damage is punch damage. Period.
PS damage bonus is the SDC damage bonus listed. Period.
Punch damage does not, as a rule, stack with weapon damage, although there are certain weapons that are stated exceptions.
A guy picks up a dagger, his punch damage does not stack with the dagger damage for a total of 1d4+1d6 SDC.
A guy picks up a vibro-dagger, his punch damage does not stack with the dagger damage for a total of 1d6 MD +1d4 SDC.
A guy with supernatural strength picks up a vibro dagger, and things work exactly the same; his punch damage does NOT stack with the dagger damage, just like nobody else's punch damage stacks with that dagger damage.

[Nether]

Which is quite ridiculous really, if you're an super-strong SDC person with an SDC weapon you end up adding yet contrarily are told that being an order of magnitude more powerful means you have no improvement to your damage at all while using a weapon suitable to handle that strength. So you end up with a lot of supernaturally strong creatures running around with weapons that provide them nothing when the point of a weapon is having it improve how much damage you do.

Because you're looking at it from the wrong end. If you're supernaturally strong and do more damage with out a weapon than with, you wouldn't use the weapon.

It's like a guy that is strong and what not being able to... punch through a board with his fist.. He's not going to pick up a plastic knife and try and stab his way through it, if he can just punch his way through with out the plastic knife.

"Supernaturally strong" things are damaging in and of themselves, most weapons are a step down from their own abilities. The Weapons that aren't are already in the realm of strength that adding more to it is doubling down. might sound good as per the guy reading a book on it, but in application the fact the weapons do that much damage is already factored in.

You're arguing an unsupportable point, working backwards to justify an end result instead of forwards. A boxer can do more damage with spikes on his glove than without because however strong he is the weapon improves the destructive potential of his punch. Just like different bullet designs can cause more damage for the same amount of kinetic energy. Supernatural Strength can't do more alone than it can with a weapon because the nature of a weapon is as some would say a force multiplier, it takes one's strength and makes it more effective. The guy with supernatural strength and a supernaturally durable battle axe must do more damage and be more effective than the guy without the axe because the axe improves the effectiveness of the strike. You can't deem the strength irrelevant or the weapon to be because they aren't.

Again, it's back to being able to do more damage with your hands than you 'weapon'. If your weapon is pansy compaired to your hands, you're silly to use it.

Supernatural strength is already stronger than most mundane weapons.

It's the difference between punching someone in the stomach with your fist, or hitting someone in the stomach with a styrofoam hammer. Sure the hammer is in addition to your swing strength but it's just not going to do as much as if you just punched him with your much harder fist.

Supernatural creatures have that aspect. Their hands/claws/feet/tails are more damaging than the weaker weapons that might be held in them. I get what you're trying to say, but I don't see the problem you see. In my mind, the Supernatural strength likely destroys weapons if used in this manner. If you have supernatural strength and you swing a baseball bat, the bat is going to shatter. If you do more damage with your hands than with said bat, you wouldn't use the bat. If you swing a sword so harrd you shatter the sword, you wouldn't keep shattering swords. This was reflected in some of the white wolf games. There are weapons, such as magical ones or different MD ones where this aspect might not happen, but those usually ahve their own things going. Rune weapons don't do MD because they're just THAT COOL... they do md because of the magic inside/in their creation. Vibro weapons do MD due to their vibro field. ect.


there's that....

And there's also... "There's mechanics in the game to make it work in most situations. There's always going to be exceptions that the rules can't cover and be 100% realistic. As it's a game, and you can't 100% reflect real life in 'game rules'."

Hey Pepsi, hows it going?

So i just wanted to comment that you are contradicting the rule system.
So to explain,

If sdc person can get a str boost to his sdc weapon damage (according to the rules)
then
A person with supernatural str "should" get a boost to his damage when using a md weapon.

The whole strength damage/lifting sdc to mdc charts and bonuses in this game are just horribly designed with tons of confusion and nonsense.

Xau

[Nightmask]

Which is quite ridiculous really, if you're an super-strong SDC person with an SDC weapon you end up adding yet contrarily are told that being an order of magnitude more powerful means you have no improvement to your damage at all while using a weapon suitable to handle that strength. So you end up with a lot of supernaturally strong creatures running around with weapons that provide them nothing when the point of a weapon is having it improve how much damage you do.

Because you're looking at it from the wrong end. If you're supernaturally strong and do more damage with out a weapon than with, you wouldn't use the weapon.

It's like a guy that is strong and what not being able to... punch through a board with his fist.. He's not going to pick up a plastic knife and try and stab his way through it, if he can just punch his way through with out the plastic knife.

"Supernaturally strong" things are damaging in and of themselves, most weapons are a step down from their own abilities. The Weapons that aren't are already in the realm of strength that adding more to it is doubling down. might sound good as per the guy reading a book on it, but in application the fact the weapons do that much damage is already factored in.

You're arguing an unsupportable point, working backwards to justify an end result instead of forwards. A boxer can do more damage with spikes on his glove than without because however strong he is the weapon improves the destructive potential of his punch. Just like different bullet designs can cause more damage for the same amount of kinetic energy. Supernatural Strength can't do more alone than it can with a weapon because the nature of a weapon is as some would say a force multiplier, it takes one's strength and makes it more effective. The guy with supernatural strength and a supernaturally durable battle axe must do more damage and be more effective than the guy without the axe because the axe improves the effectiveness of the strike. You can't deem the strength irrelevant or the weapon to be because they aren't.

Again, it's back to being able to do more damage with your hands than you 'weapon'. If your weapon is pansy compaired to your hands, you're silly to use it.

Supernatural strength is already stronger than most mundane weapons.

It's the difference between punching someone in the stomach with your fist, or hitting someone in the stomach with a styrofoam hammer. Sure the hammer is in addition to your swing strength but it's just not going to do as much as if you just punched him with your much harder fist.

Supernatural creatures have that aspect. Their hands/claws/feet/tails are more damaging than the weaker weapons that might be held in them. I get what you're trying to say, but I don't see the problem you see. In my mind, the Supernatural strength likely destroys weapons if used in this manner. If you have supernatural strength and you swing a baseball bat, the bat is going to shatter. If you do more damage with your hands than with said bat, you wouldn't use the bat. If you swing a sword so harrd you shatter the sword, you wouldn't keep shattering swords. This was reflected in some of the white wolf games. There are weapons, such as magical ones or different MD ones where this aspect might not happen, but those usually ahve their own things going. Rune weapons don't do MD because they're just THAT COOL... they do md because of the magic inside/in their creation. Vibro weapons do MD due to their vibro field. ect.


there's that....

And there's also... "There's mechanics in the game to make it work in most situations. There's always going to be exceptions that the rules can't cover and be 100% realistic. As it's a game, and you can't 100% reflect real life in 'game rules'."

Again you can't do more damage alone than you can with a weapon, that's why weapons exist. An axe or baseball bat is not a gun, it is not a weapon that deals damage independent of how strong its wielder is, it's ability to deal damage is directly related to how strong the person wielding it is. It's simply not possible for the Supernaturally strong creature's strength to overshadow the damage of the axe because the axe's damage is dependent in part on the strength of its wielder. Thor has no real use for that hammer if his strength was all that mattered, nor do any other god or supernatural being that is known to possess weapons yet is also supernaturally strong. They have them because the weapon's damage adds to their strength's damage, just as SDC damage bonuses add to SDC weapon combat. There can be no other inference one can draw. If there's a game rule that states otherwise then the rule is absurd and should be discarded for being so off base.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Which is quite ridiculous really, if you're an super-strong SDC person with an SDC weapon you end up adding yet contrarily are told that being an order of magnitude more powerful means you have no improvement to your damage at all while using a weapon suitable to handle that strength. So you end up with a lot of supernaturally strong creatures running around with weapons that provide them nothing when the point of a weapon is having it improve how much damage you do.

Because you're looking at it from the wrong end. If you're supernaturally strong and do more damage with out a weapon than with, you wouldn't use the weapon.

It's like a guy that is strong and what not being able to... punch through a board with his fist.. He's not going to pick up a plastic knife and try and stab his way through it, if he can just punch his way through with out the plastic knife.

"Supernaturally strong" things are damaging in and of themselves, most weapons are a step down from their own abilities. The Weapons that aren't are already in the realm of strength that adding more to it is doubling down. might sound good as per the guy reading a book on it, but in application the fact the weapons do that much damage is already factored in.

You're arguing an unsupportable point, working backwards to justify an end result instead of forwards. A boxer can do more damage with spikes on his glove than without because however strong he is the weapon improves the destructive potential of his punch. Just like different bullet designs can cause more damage for the same amount of kinetic energy. Supernatural Strength can't do more alone than it can with a weapon because the nature of a weapon is as some would say a force multiplier, it takes one's strength and makes it more effective. The guy with supernatural strength and a supernaturally durable battle axe must do more damage and be more effective than the guy without the axe because the axe improves the effectiveness of the strike. You can't deem the strength irrelevant or the weapon to be because they aren't.

Again, it's back to being able to do more damage with your hands than you 'weapon'. If your weapon is pansy compaired to your hands, you're silly to use it.

Supernatural strength is already stronger than most mundane weapons.

It's the difference between punching someone in the stomach with your fist, or hitting someone in the stomach with a styrofoam hammer. Sure the hammer is in addition to your swing strength but it's just not going to do as much as if you just punched him with your much harder fist.

Supernatural creatures have that aspect. Their hands/claws/feet/tails are more damaging than the weaker weapons that might be held in them. I get what you're trying to say, but I don't see the problem you see. In my mind, the Supernatural strength likely destroys weapons if used in this manner. If you have supernatural strength and you swing a baseball bat, the bat is going to shatter. If you do more damage with your hands than with said bat, you wouldn't use the bat. If you swing a sword so harrd you shatter the sword, you wouldn't keep shattering swords. This was reflected in some of the white wolf games. There are weapons, such as magical ones or different MD ones where this aspect might not happen, but those usually ahve their own things going. Rune weapons don't do MD because they're just THAT COOL... they do md because of the magic inside/in their creation. Vibro weapons do MD due to their vibro field. ect.


there's that....

And there's also... "There's mechanics in the game to make it work in most situations. There's always going to be exceptions that the rules can't cover and be 100% realistic. As it's a game, and you can't 100% reflect real life in 'game rules'."

Hey Pepsi, hows it going?

So i just wanted to comment that you are contradicting the rule system.
So to explain,

If sdc person can get a str boost to his sdc weapon damage (according to the rules)
then
A person with supernatural str "should" get a boost to his damage when using a md weapon.

The whole strength damage/lifting sdc to mdc charts and bonuses in this game are just horribly designed with tons of confusion and nonsense.

Xau

Actually no. I'm not contradicting the rule system at all. The Rule system says you don't get MD bonous on melee weapons. I'm just explaining why it 'works' in one fashion. The 'why' is that your fist, like super man, do more damage than a two by four could do.

If Superman swings a two by 4 at you it hurts. It hurts lots but the two by four shatters, he can't put his full strength into the weapon as he's stronger than the weapon. Superman hits you with his fist and you go flying 100s of feet. (( Or if you're not in a comic booky mood, his fist punches through your stomach and out your spine. Like in Terminator.))

Does getting hit with the two by four hurt? Yeah but all of superman's strength can't be put into that two by four. The two by four would just shatter. Where in his full strength goes through his fist.

What Nightmask is saying is A+B=Greater than just "A". And I can see how he could get there, but in this case, A is so much more powerful than B, that 'b' doesn't matter when calculating the result. If A=1,000,000, and B=1. Yes. A+B=1,000,001. The end result is that that 1, just doesn't matter when you have the 1,000,000.

THAT is how Supernatural strength works with melee weapons. the '1' is there, but when you're adding by multiples of 100, it just doesn't matter enough to factor in.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Which is quite ridiculous really, if you're an super-strong SDC person with an SDC weapon you end up adding yet contrarily are told that being an order of magnitude more powerful means you have no improvement to your damage at all while using a weapon suitable to handle that strength. So you end up with a lot of supernaturally strong creatures running around with weapons that provide them nothing when the point of a weapon is having it improve how much damage you do.

Because you're looking at it from the wrong end. If you're supernaturally strong and do more damage with out a weapon than with, you wouldn't use the weapon.

It's like a guy that is strong and what not being able to... punch through a board with his fist.. He's not going to pick up a plastic knife and try and stab his way through it, if he can just punch his way through with out the plastic knife.

"Supernaturally strong" things are damaging in and of themselves, most weapons are a step down from their own abilities. The Weapons that aren't are already in the realm of strength that adding more to it is doubling down. might sound good as per the guy reading a book on it, but in application the fact the weapons do that much damage is already factored in.

You're arguing an unsupportable point, working backwards to justify an end result instead of forwards. A boxer can do more damage with spikes on his glove than without because however strong he is the weapon improves the destructive potential of his punch. Just like different bullet designs can cause more damage for the same amount of kinetic energy. Supernatural Strength can't do more alone than it can with a weapon because the nature of a weapon is as some would say a force multiplier, it takes one's strength and makes it more effective. The guy with supernatural strength and a supernaturally durable battle axe must do more damage and be more effective than the guy without the axe because the axe improves the effectiveness of the strike. You can't deem the strength irrelevant or the weapon to be because they aren't.

Again, it's back to being able to do more damage with your hands than you 'weapon'. If your weapon is pansy compaired to your hands, you're silly to use it.

Supernatural strength is already stronger than most mundane weapons.

It's the difference between punching someone in the stomach with your fist, or hitting someone in the stomach with a styrofoam hammer. Sure the hammer is in addition to your swing strength but it's just not going to do as much as if you just punched him with your much harder fist.

Supernatural creatures have that aspect. Their hands/claws/feet/tails are more damaging than the weaker weapons that might be held in them. I get what you're trying to say, but I don't see the problem you see. In my mind, the Supernatural strength likely destroys weapons if used in this manner. If you have supernatural strength and you swing a baseball bat, the bat is going to shatter. If you do more damage with your hands than with said bat, you wouldn't use the bat. If you swing a sword so harrd you shatter the sword, you wouldn't keep shattering swords. This was reflected in some of the white wolf games. There are weapons, such as magical ones or different MD ones where this aspect might not happen, but those usually ahve their own things going. Rune weapons don't do MD because they're just THAT COOL... they do md because of the magic inside/in their creation. Vibro weapons do MD due to their vibro field. ect.


there's that....

And there's also... "There's mechanics in the game to make it work in most situations. There's always going to be exceptions that the rules can't cover and be 100% realistic. As it's a game, and you can't 100% reflect real life in 'game rules'."

Again you can't do more damage alone than you can with a weapon, that's why weapons exist. An axe or baseball bat is not a gun, it is not a weapon that deals damage independent of how strong its wielder is, it's ability to deal damage is directly related to how strong the person wielding it is. It's simply not possible for the Supernaturally strong creature's strength to overshadow the damage of the axe because the axe's damage is dependent in part on the strength of its wielder. Thor has no real use for that hammer if his strength was all that mattered, nor do any other god or supernatural being that is known to possess weapons yet is also supernaturally strong. They have them because the weapon's damage adds to their strength's damage, just as SDC damage bonuses add to SDC weapon combat. There can be no other inference one can draw. If there's a game rule that states otherwise then the rule is absurd and should be discarded for being so off base.

Thor's weapon wasn't 'Just' a hammer. Nor are other god's. Thor's hammer was in and of itself a MEGA powerful magical artifact.

I just explained it in a previous post. If you do 1,000,000 damage with a punch and your (( non thor's hammer)) hammer adds 1 damage, yes, you do 1,000,001 damage. but it just doesn't matter at that point. The addition is too small to factor in to the total. Unless your strength bonous is +101, damage per hit. it's not going to effect mega damage damage.

You're not wrong in that the weapon is built to do damage. But it's just not built or able (( in most cases)) to do enough damage to matter.

[Cyber-Knight]

That's a false analogy, though, because we're not talking about a 2x4. We're talking about mega-damage weapons being wielded by people with supernatural strength.

Would Superman do more damage wielding a 2x4? Of course not. Now, would he do more damage wielding MJOLNIR? Yes he would, and he has. When Marvel and DC did one of their crossovers Thor tossed Mjolnir to Superman, who then used it to deliver a blow which he wasn't capable of delivering on his own. The same holds true for Thor. He's incredibly strong on his own, but he stills fights with Mjolnir, because as strong as he is the damage which he inflicts while fighting with Mjolnir is greater than the damage which he would inflict by fighting barehanded.

Now, take a Cosmo-Knight with PS 51 and who upgraded his Cosmic Weapon to do 1d6x10 MD. When attacking with his Cosmic Weapon he does 2d6x10 MD. Now, let's say he used a Sword of Atlantis instead, which likewise does 1d6x10 MD on its own. How does it make sense that that Cosmo-Knight would now only do 1d6x10 MD instead of the same 2d6x10 MD? How does that make any sense?

We're not talking 2x4's, here. We're talking about mega-damage weapons capable of rending through power armor and giant robots on their own. To say that the supernatural being wielding one of those weapons would derive no benefit from doing so is absolutely ludicrous.

[Damian Magecraft]

Which is quite ridiculous really, if you're an super-strong SDC person with an SDC weapon you end up adding yet contrarily are told that being an order of magnitude more powerful means you have no improvement to your damage at all while using a weapon suitable to handle that strength. So you end up with a lot of supernaturally strong creatures running around with weapons that provide them nothing when the point of a weapon is having it improve how much damage you do.

Because you're looking at it from the wrong end. If you're supernaturally strong and do more damage with out a weapon than with, you wouldn't use the weapon.

It's like a guy that is strong and what not being able to... punch through a board with his fist.. He's not going to pick up a plastic knife and try and stab his way through it, if he can just punch his way through with out the plastic knife.

"Supernaturally strong" things are damaging in and of themselves, most weapons are a step down from their own abilities. The Weapons that aren't are already in the realm of strength that adding more to it is doubling down. might sound good as per the guy reading a book on it, but in application the fact the weapons do that much damage is already factored in.

You're arguing an unsupportable point, working backwards to justify an end result instead of forwards. A boxer can do more damage with spikes on his glove than without because however strong he is the weapon improves the destructive potential of his punch. Just like different bullet designs can cause more damage for the same amount of kinetic energy. Supernatural Strength can't do more alone than it can with a weapon because the nature of a weapon is as some would say a force multiplier, it takes one's strength and makes it more effective. The guy with supernatural strength and a supernaturally durable battle axe must do more damage and be more effective than the guy without the axe because the axe improves the effectiveness of the strike. You can't deem the strength irrelevant or the weapon to be because they aren't.

Again, it's back to being able to do more damage with your hands than you 'weapon'. If your weapon is pansy compaired to your hands, you're silly to use it.

Supernatural strength is already stronger than most mundane weapons.

It's the difference between punching someone in the stomach with your fist, or hitting someone in the stomach with a styrofoam hammer. Sure the hammer is in addition to your swing strength but it's just not going to do as much as if you just punched him with your much harder fist.

Supernatural creatures have that aspect. Their hands/claws/feet/tails are more damaging than the weaker weapons that might be held in them. I get what you're trying to say, but I don't see the problem you see. In my mind, the Supernatural strength likely destroys weapons if used in this manner. If you have supernatural strength and you swing a baseball bat, the bat is going to shatter. If you do more damage with your hands than with said bat, you wouldn't use the bat. If you swing a sword so harrd you shatter the sword, you wouldn't keep shattering swords. This was reflected in some of the white wolf games. There are weapons, such as magical ones or different MD ones where this aspect might not happen, but those usually ahve their own things going. Rune weapons don't do MD because they're just THAT COOL... they do md because of the magic inside/in their creation. Vibro weapons do MD due to their vibro field. ect.


there's that....

And there's also... "There's mechanics in the game to make it work in most situations. There's always going to be exceptions that the rules can't cover and be 100% realistic. As it's a game, and you can't 100% reflect real life in 'game rules'."

Again you can't do more damage alone than you can with a weapon, that's why weapons exist. An axe or baseball bat is not a gun, it is not a weapon that deals damage independent of how strong its wielder is, it's ability to deal damage is directly related to how strong the person wielding it is. It's simply not possible for the Supernaturally strong creature's strength to overshadow the damage of the axe because the axe's damage is dependent in part on the strength of its wielder. Thor has no real use for that hammer if his strength was all that mattered, nor do any other god or supernatural being that is known to possess weapons yet is also supernaturally strong. They have them because the weapon's damage adds to their strength's damage, just as SDC damage bonuses add to SDC weapon combat. There can be no other inference one can draw. If there's a game rule that states otherwise then the rule is absurd and should be discarded for being so off base.

Well if you do use it then you should also use the rule that says that if a weapon attack deals 3x its max damage it risks being broken.

[Pepsi Jedi]

That's a false analogy, though, because we're not talking about a 2x4. We're talking about mega-damage weapons being wielded by people with supernatural strength.

Would Superman do more damage wielding a 2x4? Of course not. Now, would he do more damage wielding MJOLNIR? Yes he would, and he has. When Marvel and DC did one of their crossovers Thor tossed Mjolnir to Superman, who then used it to deliver a blow which he wasn't capable of delivering on his own. The same holds true for Thor. He's incredibly strong on his own, but he stills fights with Mjolnir, because as strong as he is the damage which he inflicts while fighting with Mjolnir is greater than the damage which he would inflict by fighting barehanded.

Now, take a Cosmo-Knight with PS 51 and who upgraded his Cosmic Weapon to do 1d6x10 MD. When attacking with his Cosmic Weapon he does 2d6x10 MD. Now, let's say he used a Sword of Atlantis instead, which likewise does 1d6x10 MD on its own. How does it make sense that that Cosmo-Knight would now only do 1d6x10 MD instead of the same 2d6x10 MD? How does that make any sense?

We're not talking 2x4's, here. We're talking about mega-damage weapons capable of rending through power armor and giant robots on their own. To say that the supernatural being wielding one of those weapons would derive no benefit from doing so is absolutely ludicrous.

Short reply: "Not all magical weapons are equal"

Slighly longer reply: If you're talking about MEGA MEGA MEGA weapons like Mjolnir, then all bets are off. They have their own rules. That's not me being snarky, that's just it. They're their own thing with their own rules. (( Such as you must be 'worthy'. Superman? Yeah. Batman?....... Iffy. Green lanturn? Um.. Most of them. NOO NOOO NOOO. lol Those guys go dark side more than people in starwars))

In rifts, the weapons that are 'special' such as Thor's hammer are listed as such. Just like "Rune weapons" are above TW weapons or just 'magical weapons' and there's even 'greater rune weapons, some magical weapons are bigger, badder and better than others.

Jus' on of those things.

(( For reference I thought we were talking about ANY weapon.. from a thrown pebble, to a stick to a 2X4, to baseball bat to normal melee sword. I didn't realize people were meaning Mjolnir. ))

[Cyber-Knight]

Well if you do use it then you should also use the rule that says that if a weapon attack deals 3x its max damage it risks being broken.

I think people see that rule in the book and assume it's for all weapons when it's likely just for SDC weapons. Weapons like Vibro-Swords, TW Flaming Swords, Rune Swords, etc are obviously a different matter than using a regular SDC weapon. They're made of MDC materials and themselves deal mega-damage.

(( For reference I thought we were talking about ANY weapon.. from a thrown pebble, to a stick to a 2X4, to baseball bat to normal melee sword. I didn't realize people were meaning Mjolnir. ))

You're the one who used Superman and a 2x4 as a reference. And no, we're not talking about "any" weapon. There's an ENORMOUS difference between an MD weapon and a SDC weapon, and it's disingenuous on your part to conflate weapons which can hurt mega-damage beings like Dragons, Gargoyles, and Cyborgs to something as feeble as a 2x4.

We're talking about MD weapons like Vibro-Swords, TW swords, magic swords, and so on. They're not at all comparable to a wooden plank. And in their case, yes, it IS reasonable that a supernatural being wielding one of them would inflict more damage than a supernatural being who's fighting bare-handed.

[Nightmask]

Well if you do use it then you should also use the rule that says that if a weapon attack deals 3x its max damage it risks being broken.

I think people see that rule in the book and assume it's for all weapons when it's likely just for SDC weapons. Weapons like Vibro-Swords, TW Flaming Swords, Rune Swords, etc are obviously a different matter than using a regular SDC weapon. They're made of MDC materials and themselves deal mega-damage.

(( For reference I thought we were talking about ANY weapon.. from a thrown pebble, to a stick to a 2X4, to baseball bat to normal melee sword. I didn't realize people were meaning Mjolnir. ))

You're the one who used Superman and a 2x4 as a reference. And no, we're not talking about "any" weapon. There's an ENORMOUS difference between an MD weapon and a SDC weapon, and it's disingenuous on your part to conflate weapons which can hurt mega-damage beings like Dragons, Gargoyles, and Cyborgs to something as feeble as a 2x4.

We're talking about MD weapons like Vibro-Swords, TW swords, magic swords, and so on. They're not at all comparable to a wooden plank. And in their case, yes, it IS reasonable that a supernatural being wielding one of them would inflict more damage than a supernatural being who's fighting bare-handed.

Plus Ironwood can turn a 2x4 into a mega-damage material which means it could inflict mega-damage in the right hands. The only reason it might not add is because it would be fairly low MDC unlike nigh-indestructible magic items which can handle all the stresses even a hundred-handed can put on them without suffering damage or failing to enhance the damage of their wielder.

[Nether]

Because you're looking at it from the wrong end. If you're supernaturally strong and do more damage with out a weapon than with, you wouldn't use the weapon.

It's like a guy that is strong and what not being able to... punch through a board with his fist.. He's not going to pick up a plastic knife and try and stab his way through it, if he can just punch his way through with out the plastic knife.

"Supernaturally strong" things are damaging in and of themselves, most weapons are a step down from their own abilities. The Weapons that aren't are already in the realm of strength that adding more to it is doubling down. might sound good as per the guy reading a book on it, but in application the fact the weapons do that much damage is already factored in.

You're arguing an unsupportable point, working backwards to justify an end result instead of forwards. A boxer can do more damage with spikes on his glove than without because however strong he is the weapon improves the destructive potential of his punch. Just like different bullet designs can cause more damage for the same amount of kinetic energy. Supernatural Strength can't do more alone than it can with a weapon because the nature of a weapon is as some would say a force multiplier, it takes one's strength and makes it more effective. The guy with supernatural strength and a supernaturally durable battle axe must do more damage and be more effective than the guy without the axe because the axe improves the effectiveness of the strike. You can't deem the strength irrelevant or the weapon to be because they aren't.

Again, it's back to being able to do more damage with your hands than you 'weapon'. If your weapon is pansy compaired to your hands, you're silly to use it.

Supernatural strength is already stronger than most mundane weapons.

It's the difference between punching someone in the stomach with your fist, or hitting someone in the stomach with a styrofoam hammer. Sure the hammer is in addition to your swing strength but it's just not going to do as much as if you just punched him with your much harder fist.

Supernatural creatures have that aspect. Their hands/claws/feet/tails are more damaging than the weaker weapons that might be held in them. I get what you're trying to say, but I don't see the problem you see. In my mind, the Supernatural strength likely destroys weapons if used in this manner. If you have supernatural strength and you swing a baseball bat, the bat is going to shatter. If you do more damage with your hands than with said bat, you wouldn't use the bat. If you swing a sword so harrd you shatter the sword, you wouldn't keep shattering swords. This was reflected in some of the white wolf games. There are weapons, such as magical ones or different MD ones where this aspect might not happen, but those usually ahve their own things going. Rune weapons don't do MD because they're just THAT COOL... they do md because of the magic inside/in their creation. Vibro weapons do MD due to their vibro field. ect.


there's that....

And there's also... "There's mechanics in the game to make it work in most situations. There's always going to be exceptions that the rules can't cover and be 100% realistic. As it's a game, and you can't 100% reflect real life in 'game rules'."

Hey Pepsi, hows it going?

So i just wanted to comment that you are contradicting the rule system.
So to explain,

If sdc person can get a str boost to his sdc weapon damage (according to the rules)
then
A person with supernatural str "should" get a boost to his damage when using a md weapon.

The whole strength damage/lifting sdc to mdc charts and bonuses in this game are just horribly designed with tons of confusion and nonsense.

Xau

Actually no. I'm not contradicting the rule system at all. The Rule system says you don't get MD bonous on melee weapons. I'm just explaining why it 'works' in one fashion. The 'why' is that your fist, like super man, do more damage than a two by four could do.

If Superman swings a two by 4 at you it hurts. It hurts lots but the two by four shatters, he can't put his full strength into the weapon as he's stronger than the weapon. Superman hits you with his fist and you go flying 100s of feet. (( Or if you're not in a comic booky mood, his fist punches through your stomach and out your spine. Like in Terminator.))

Does getting hit with the two by four hurt? Yeah but all of superman's strength can't be put into that two by four. The two by four would just shatter. Where in his full strength goes through his fist.

What Nightmask is saying is A+B=Greater than just "A". And I can see how he could get there, but in this case, A is so much more powerful than B, that 'b' doesn't matter when calculating the result. If A=1,000,000, and B=1. Yes. A+B=1,000,001. The end result is that that 1, just doesn't matter when you have the 1,000,000.

THAT is how Supernatural strength works with melee weapons. the '1' is there, but when you're adding by multiples of 100, it just doesn't matter enough to factor in.

I personally dont think your example follow logic nor make sense. I can see you are trying to explain why the rules might be this way but to me it isnt making sense.

A golf club for example, extends the distance of our arm giving us a much long lever for for leverage. We can hit a golf ball much much farther than we could if we used our hand holding the driver head. Also str can have an effect here, but in this case having some golf training will allow a person to utilize his strength better.

The same thing with a baseball bat, to a sword swing ext follow the same principle. You will have far more speed and force thru a weapons extension than you could ever get from just your body part.

If you picture a bicycle wheel, which part of the spoke has the most velocity?
Same thing goes with a lever, if you have a 5 ft metal rod's tip under a 500 lbs log, can you lift it up with the lever? Prolly no, but what if that lever was 20 ft long, i would bet that you could. Now that is with the same person, and they are able to exert a much greater amount of force than if they just used thier own limb.

Now as for materiel, well sdc person using sdc weapon should be comparable to a md person (sup str) using a md weapon which is designed with materiel that is in his ballpark to handle his str.

Now a sdc person using a md weapon, absolutely their str should not add to it, but a md str person most definately should.

[Nether]

Because you're looking at it from the wrong end. If you're supernaturally strong and do more damage with out a weapon than with, you wouldn't use the weapon.

It's like a guy that is strong and what not being able to... punch through a board with his fist.. He's not going to pick up a plastic knife and try and stab his way through it, if he can just punch his way through with out the plastic knife.

"Supernaturally strong" things are damaging in and of themselves, most weapons are a step down from their own abilities. The Weapons that aren't are already in the realm of strength that adding more to it is doubling down. might sound good as per the guy reading a book on it, but in application the fact the weapons do that much damage is already factored in.

You're arguing an unsupportable point, working backwards to justify an end result instead of forwards. A boxer can do more damage with spikes on his glove than without because however strong he is the weapon improves the destructive potential of his punch. Just like different bullet designs can cause more damage for the same amount of kinetic energy. Supernatural Strength can't do more alone than it can with a weapon because the nature of a weapon is as some would say a force multiplier, it takes one's strength and makes it more effective. The guy with supernatural strength and a supernaturally durable battle axe must do more damage and be more effective than the guy without the axe because the axe improves the effectiveness of the strike. You can't deem the strength irrelevant or the weapon to be because they aren't.

Again, it's back to being able to do more damage with your hands than you 'weapon'. If your weapon is pansy compaired to your hands, you're silly to use it.

Supernatural strength is already stronger than most mundane weapons.

It's the difference between punching someone in the stomach with your fist, or hitting someone in the stomach with a styrofoam hammer. Sure the hammer is in addition to your swing strength but it's just not going to do as much as if you just punched him with your much harder fist.

Supernatural creatures have that aspect. Their hands/claws/feet/tails are more damaging than the weaker weapons that might be held in them. I get what you're trying to say, but I don't see the problem you see. In my mind, the Supernatural strength likely destroys weapons if used in this manner. If you have supernatural strength and you swing a baseball bat, the bat is going to shatter. If you do more damage with your hands than with said bat, you wouldn't use the bat. If you swing a sword so harrd you shatter the sword, you wouldn't keep shattering swords. This was reflected in some of the white wolf games. There are weapons, such as magical ones or different MD ones where this aspect might not happen, but those usually ahve their own things going. Rune weapons don't do MD because they're just THAT COOL... they do md because of the magic inside/in their creation. Vibro weapons do MD due to their vibro field. ect.


there's that....

And there's also... "There's mechanics in the game to make it work in most situations. There's always going to be exceptions that the rules can't cover and be 100% realistic. As it's a game, and you can't 100% reflect real life in 'game rules'."

Again you can't do more damage alone than you can with a weapon, that's why weapons exist. An axe or baseball bat is not a gun, it is not a weapon that deals damage independent of how strong its wielder is, it's ability to deal damage is directly related to how strong the person wielding it is. It's simply not possible for the Supernaturally strong creature's strength to overshadow the damage of the axe because the axe's damage is dependent in part on the strength of its wielder. Thor has no real use for that hammer if his strength was all that mattered, nor do any other god or supernatural being that is known to possess weapons yet is also supernaturally strong. They have them because the weapon's damage adds to their strength's damage, just as SDC damage bonuses add to SDC weapon combat. There can be no other inference one can draw. If there's a game rule that states otherwise then the rule is absurd and should be discarded for being so off base.

Well if you do use it then you should also use the rule that says that if a weapon attack deals 3x its max damage it risks being broken.

Completely agree with this as it shows a weapons threshold, and you could apply this on sdc or mdc weps.

[Nether]

(( For reference I thought we were talking about ANY weapon.. from a thrown pebble, to a stick to a 2X4, to baseball bat to normal melee sword. I didn't realize people were meaning Mjolnir. ))

We are talking about any weapon, as long as it is relative to the person using it. Sdc person using sdc wep, mdc or sup str using md weapon.

Magical weapons are there but so are tech weapons and this discussion should apply to both equally.

[Damian Magecraft]

Again you can't do more damage alone than you can with a weapon, that's why weapons exist. An axe or baseball bat is not a gun, it is not a weapon that deals damage independent of how strong its wielder is, it's ability to deal damage is directly related to how strong the person wielding it is. It's simply not possible for the Supernaturally strong creature's strength to overshadow the damage of the axe because the axe's damage is dependent in part on the strength of its wielder. Thor has no real use for that hammer if his strength was all that mattered, nor do any other god or supernatural being that is known to possess weapons yet is also supernaturally strong. They have them because the weapon's damage adds to their strength's damage, just as SDC damage bonuses add to SDC weapon combat. There can be no other inference one can draw. If there's a game rule that states otherwise then the rule is absurd and should be discarded for being so off base.

Well if you do use it then you should also use the rule that says that if a weapon attack deals 3x its max damage it risks being broken.

Completely agree with this as it shows a weapons threshold, and you could apply this on sdc or mdc weps.

It also explains why SN critters would forgo weapons since they have a nasty habit of shattering in their hands.

[Nether]

Again you can't do more damage alone than you can with a weapon, that's why weapons exist. An axe or baseball bat is not a gun, it is not a weapon that deals damage independent of how strong its wielder is, it's ability to deal damage is directly related to how strong the person wielding it is. It's simply not possible for the Supernaturally strong creature's strength to overshadow the damage of the axe because the axe's damage is dependent in part on the strength of its wielder. Thor has no real use for that hammer if his strength was all that mattered, nor do any other god or supernatural being that is known to possess weapons yet is also supernaturally strong. They have them because the weapon's damage adds to their strength's damage, just as SDC damage bonuses add to SDC weapon combat. There can be no other inference one can draw. If there's a game rule that states otherwise then the rule is absurd and should be discarded for being so off base.

Well if you do use it then you should also use the rule that says that if a weapon attack deals 3x its max damage it risks being broken.

Completely agree with this as it shows a weapons threshold, and you could apply this on sdc or mdc weps.

It also explains why SN critters would forgo weapons since they have a nasty habit of shattering in their hands.

Well a "critter" doesnt sound like something that would normally have a mid to high supernatural str, so most SN critters wouldnt be breaking the weapon. High SN str people would be breaking many a weapon, but a mid to good wep would be fine in thier hands.

Now if a Titan Juicer with a 51 SN Str uses a vibro knife then yes i could definitely see him wrending that blade useless when he inserts it into something md.

But a rule like this would also make Rune weps more valuable as I think they are grossly overpriced for what they do in comparison to what you can get in say a tech wep. But indestructible is pretty fantastic.

Edit: also to add, with rules like this it also gives more use out of pull punch, say for a high SN str guy like the Titan Juicer, if he doesnt want to destroy the vibro knife then he might pull his punch to bring his damage down to a level that prolly isnt going to destroy it. Well you would need to use a md wep that is just a bit below your str level though, sio this way you are prolly doing a bit higher damage with it then say just using your fist.

[Damian Magecraft]

Again you can't do more damage alone than you can with a weapon, that's why weapons exist. An axe or baseball bat is not a gun, it is not a weapon that deals damage independent of how strong its wielder is, it's ability to deal damage is directly related to how strong the person wielding it is. It's simply not possible for the Supernaturally strong creature's strength to overshadow the damage of the axe because the axe's damage is dependent in part on the strength of its wielder. Thor has no real use for that hammer if his strength was all that mattered, nor do any other god or supernatural being that is known to possess weapons yet is also supernaturally strong. They have them because the weapon's damage adds to their strength's damage, just as SDC damage bonuses add to SDC weapon combat. There can be no other inference one can draw. If there's a game rule that states otherwise then the rule is absurd and should be discarded for being so off base.

Well if you do use it then you should also use the rule that says that if a weapon attack deals 3x its max damage it risks being broken.

Completely agree with this as it shows a weapons threshold, and you could apply this on sdc or mdc weps.

It also explains why SN critters would forgo weapons since they have a nasty habit of shattering in their hands.

Well a "critter" doesnt sound like something that would normally have a mid to high supernatural str, so most SN critters wouldnt be breaking the weapon. High SN str people would be breaking many a weapon, but a mid to good wep would be fine in thier hands.

Now if a Titan Juicer with a 51 SN Str uses a vibro knife then yes i could definitely see him wrending that blade useless when he inserts it into something md.

But a rule like this would also make Rune weps more valuable as I think they are grossly overpriced for what they do in comparison to what you can get in say a tech wep. But indestructible is pretty fantastic.

Edit: also to add, with rules like this it also gives more use out of pull punch, say for a high SN str guy like the Titan Juicer, if he doesnt want to destroy the vibro knife then he might pull his punch to bring his damage down to a level that prolly isnt going to destroy it. Well you would need to use a md wep that is just a bit below your str level though, sio this way you are prolly doing a bit higher damage with it then say just using your fist.

well i was using critter as a general term...
but your point is taken.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well if you do use it then you should also use the rule that says that if a weapon attack deals 3x its max damage it risks being broken.

I think people see that rule in the book and assume it's for all weapons when it's likely just for SDC weapons. Weapons like Vibro-Swords, TW Flaming Swords, Rune Swords, etc are obviously a different matter than using a regular SDC weapon. They're made of MDC materials and themselves deal mega-damage.

(( For reference I thought we were talking about ANY weapon.. from a thrown pebble, to a stick to a 2X4, to baseball bat to normal melee sword. I didn't realize people were meaning Mjolnir. ))

You're the one who used Superman and a 2x4 as a reference. And no, we're not talking about "any" weapon. There's an ENORMOUS difference between an MD weapon and a SDC weapon, and it's disingenuous on your part to conflate weapons which can hurt mega-damage beings like Dragons, Gargoyles, and Cyborgs to something as feeble as a 2x4.

We're talking about MD weapons like Vibro-Swords, TW swords, magic swords, and so on. They're not at all comparable to a wooden plank. And in their case, yes, it IS reasonable that a supernatural being wielding one of them would inflict more damage than a supernatural being who's fighting bare-handed.

Plus Ironwood can turn a 2x4 into a mega-damage material which means it could inflict mega-damage in the right hands. The only reason it might not add is because it would be fairly low MDC unlike nigh-indestructible magic items which can handle all the stresses even a hundred-handed can put on them without suffering damage or failing to enhance the damage of their wielder.

Ironwood is only MDC if you melt it down and do the ritual though, right? People act like there's MDC sticks and twigs in the forest. I seem to remember it's not like that?

[Killer Cyborg]

Ironwood is only MDC if you melt it down and do the ritual though, right? People act like there's MDC sticks and twigs in the forest. I seem to remember it's not like that?

You're thinking of SteelTrees. Ironwood is a wood-like substance created buy the Ironwood spell.

[Killer Cyborg]

To say that the supernatural being wielding one of those weapons would derive no benefit from doing so is absolutely ludicrous.

Again, it's no more ludicrous than saying that supernatural PS inflicts MD in the first place.

[Killer Cyborg]

We're talking about MD weapons like Vibro-Swords, TW swords, magic swords, and so on. They're not at all comparable to a wooden plank.

Agreed.
Which is why it's absurd to say, "I do more damage with a wooden plank than I do with my bare hands, therefore a supernatural creature would do more damage with a MD melee weapon than with his/her/its bare hands."
It is simply not comparable, as you point out.

[Armorlord]

Skimming so not certain if all of this has been covered but:

Supernatural Strength in MD environments has never stacked by default. We had some contradictory information in stat blocks for awhile until RUE officially confirmed SN stacking with natural weapons, such as claws. Several magic items specifically allow Supernatural Strength to stack with them as well.
As a houserule, I generally allow magic melee weapons that deal MD damage just from being magical to stack. While there are several examples of this happening in the books, it is not official for all such weapons. Though the risk of breaking the weapon is still present (if not indestructible).

Supernatural Strength's MD damage is a wholly magical effect with no relationship with physics or inertia.

Also of note: Robotic Strength MD does stack with weapons.
Which further highlights the differences between tech and magic.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Ironwood is only MDC if you melt it down and do the ritual though, right? People act like there's MDC sticks and twigs in the forest. I seem to remember it's not like that?

You're thinking of SteelTrees. Ironwood is a wood-like substance created buy the Ironwood spell.

Ahhh thank you.

[Nether]

as i have pointed out before in these discussions, prior to 1995, MD weapons stacked. Then people complained alot, and now it's " Pick the higher of two damages" . Prior to 1993, MD strength added PS bonuses to weapons.
now it's " FU, it's what ever the gm says it is, and in this case it's "..

Your statements change alot in my mind for this thread, as it shows me that it was more logical prior and that the changes arent due to what many here are trying to defend them as, but it was a change based on "oh my tech guy with guns is getting chewed up in melee, OMG PB, do something, I'm dying over here".

But the thing that boggles the mind now is why does borg ps stack with weapons and nothing else? How does that make any sense and not completely show a one sided favortism to tech?

[Armorlord]

as i have pointed out before in these discussions, prior to 1995, MD weapons stacked. Then people complained alot, and now it's " Pick the higher of two damages" . Prior to 1993, MD strength added PS bonuses to weapons.
now it's " FU, it's what ever the gm says it is, and in this case it's "..

Your statements change alot in my mind for this thread, as it shows me that it was more logical prior and that the changes arent due to what many here are trying to defend them as, but it was a change based on "oh my tech guy with guns is getting chewed up in melee, OMG PB, do something, I'm dying over here".

But the thing that boggles the mind now is why does borg ps stack with weapons and nothing else? How does that make any sense and not completely show a one sided favortism to tech?

I'd have to disagree with Rappanui's conspiracy theory. It is pretty straightforward, magic fist damage doesn't normally stack with things because that MD damage is just magical, not actually strength-based.
In your 'tech guy with guns' example, he's still getting chewed up the same because the natural weapons on the magic monster are still doing the same stacked damage, so there is no reprieve there. Most powerful magic weapons also grant stacking, so that 'nerf' isn't there either. All in all this looks like just a ruling on 'how things work'.