Robotech Spaceship Book

[Tiree]

It got scrubbed - the original writer was let go/fired a while back. And Palladium decided to go into a different direction.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I for one would rather have the Ships Book then say the Genesis Pit book.

[Seto Kaiba]

There's presently an attempt to revive the project... though Kevin hasn't responded yea or nay on it yet.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I for one would rather have the Ships Book then say the Genesis Pit book.

Yeah.... this stuff was supposed to be part of the New Gen book... IDK why it wasn't included, since the new gen book is tiny, and could have used the filler.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I for one would rather have the Ships Book then say the Genesis Pit book.

Yeah.... this stuff was supposed to be part of the New Gen. book... IDK why it wasn't included, since the new gen. book is tiny, and could have used the filler.

Since the only other books with the RT ships detailed are 1st ed RT and Macross 2. Both out of print, and the RT books last ed. I was looking forward to the new ships book to be able to compare them to the old. However, with what ships have been published already, I can see that all the ranges will be nerfed from the relatively short ranged stats in the old books.[Relative to what the RW range stats would be.]

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

I'm going to nominate TheElf for the artwork for The Big Book of Spaceships! He already got at least one vote of extreme confidence (admittedly, a former HG employee...but still).

Tom Bateman Why not just have this guy create new artwork?
16 hours ago via mobile · Like

His rendering of the Destroyer Escort recently was, quite simply, fantastic! That is the kind of artwork (granted, grey tone like those in the old Macross II Deck Plans series) that should be in the book.

[glitterboy2098]

personally i want to see an inertia and acceleration based combat mechanic. the show already showcases such traits, and the current stats for the starships we have support it.

i'm willing to loan my ruleset to do it..

[DhAkael]

It got scrubbed - the original writer was let go/fired a while back. And Palladium decided to go into a different direction.

As per Kevin Siembiada's modus operandi.

[taalismn]

Robotech without spaceships(and I mean the full range of them) is like a sandwich without bread...And without attention to the ships, Southern Cross suffers badly like it did in the first edition, with a few weak shuttlecraft to play with(at least the second time around we got the Tristar), and Shadow Chronicles is just NewGen rewarmed if we don't have the Icarus, as well as the new Horizons to get things moving into new territory(I'm really hoping they'll appear in any future Marines book if the Spaceships compendium has been scrubbed).

[Seto Kaiba]

personally i want to see an inertia and acceleration based combat mechanic. the show already showcases such traits, and the current stats for the starships we have support it.

Granted, but that's probably the kind of thing they would've tried to work into the core book. It's a difficult thing to visualize properly, which is why a lot of games simply don't bother with trying to implement realistic physics in space combat and take the Star Wars approach of "let's do it like they do in atmosphere because it looks cooler that way." (It makes for good cinema and it's easy to comprehend, but it sends physics majors into paroxysms of rage.)

To date, the only game I've ever played that applied certain aspects of real physics to space combat and made it graceful and easy to work with was Battlefleet Gothic... the miniatures help a lot.

Robotech without spaceships(and I mean the full range of them) is like a sandwich without bread...And without attention to the ships, Southern Cross suffers badly like it did in the first edition, with a few weak shuttlecraft to play with(at least the second time around we got the Tristar), and Shadow Chronicles is just NewGen rewarmed if we don't have the Icarus, as well as the new Horizons to get things moving into new territory(I'm really hoping they'll appear in any future Marines book if the Spaceships compendium has been scrubbed).

At the risk of sounding churlish, there aren't actually that many kinds of ships in the Robotech Masters Saga (just five in total, not counting shuttles of varying types), only one of which plays a major and direct role in the story... and then, as a set piece/backdrop rather than a fighting ship. It'd be nice to have the coverage, and it's be nicer still if we could get Harmony Gold to give us a yea or nay on the variations of the Tristar, and I'd be over the moon were the writers allowed to do things like address and rationalize the differences between the RTSC and original versions of certain ships... let's just hope Kevin gets back to me and Wolfe about reviving the book.

[glitterboy2098]

personally i want to see an inertia and acceleration based combat mechanic. the show already showcases such traits, and the current stats for the starships we have support it.

Granted, but that's probably the kind of thing they would've tried to work into the core book. It's a difficult thing to visualize properly, which is why a lot of games simply don't bother with trying to implement realistic physics in space combat and take the Star Wars approach of "let's do it like they do in atmosphere because it looks cooler that way." (It makes for good cinema and it's easy to comprehend, but it sends physics majors into paroxysms of rage.)

this assumes a few things though.

A.) that palladium actually has a space combat system.
b.) that Palladium would want to devote the page count to that in their current 'smaller books are better' approach.
c.) that they see space combat as a major part of the game.

palladium doesn't really have a space combat system, they have a bunch of ships with stats.
to do an inertia and acceleration based space combat system, you'd need to devote several pages to it, which even if palladium had a system to use, i doubt they would have spent the extra pages to include it.
and i think it's pretty clear by the fact they left the starships out of the shadow Chronicles book, and the kinds of adventure hooks they put into all 4 books, that palladium was thinking that planet bound adventures would dominate.

To date, the only game I've ever played that applied certain aspects of real physics to space combat and made it graceful and easy to work with was Battlefleet Gothic... the miniatures help a lot.

i've played a few, including several Roleplaying games. the key is to be selective about what parts to ignore the physics for. when i was developing my rules for palladium space combat, i chose to fudge things when it came to changing courses (electing to go with a cinematic friendly approach of not dealing with having to cancel out existing vectors during a course change or calculating the arcs of the orbits, or the the kind of minutia that only physics doctorates love.) instead i focused mainly on getting acceleration handled in a way that is easy to track (just simple addition and subtraction for record keeping).

the end result plays out similar to the space battles of babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica, and to a degree the macross and Gundam Anime universes. you can do the 'swooping' types of dogfights, but you can also bust out the crazy-ivans, end over end attack moves, and other inertia based combat methods.


frankly, it's just the Aliens Unlimited Galaxy Guide acceleration rules, just adapted to handle varying levels of acceleration, instead of the AUGG's "one accel to rule them all" (which as far as i can tell, was done to simplify the books construction rules)

i'm actually working on taking my rules, rewriting parts of the description parts (and probably dropping section's # 5 and 9, which most people won't care about and are the two most math heavy parts), and submitting as a rifter article.

[Seto Kaiba]

this assumes a few things though.

Hm... you're right, I really am making a bad assumption there. I think item C is a safe one though, since they were actively planning a dedicated spaceships sourcebook at one point. I don't think they've ever really seen ship battle as a major part of the game, but the general approach seems to be that space combat works the same way as the atmospheric combat for VFs and such. YMMV as to whether or not this is actually a good thing. As someone who strongly advocates keeping things as simple as possible, I think a separate set of rules for space might be pushing things a little... the system's already a bit cluttered.

and i think it's pretty clear by the fact they left the starships out of the shadow Chronicles book, and the kinds of adventure hooks they put into all 4 books, that palladium was thinking that planet bound adventures would dominate.

There's a certain amount of sense in that. Outside of the first 27 episodes of the Macross Saga, most of what we see in the Robotech series is planetside activity. Some minor excursions are made to space, but they end up being mostly sideshows to action occurring on the ground (or with the spaceship as a backdrop). They geared the game toward the majority of the action in the series, which shows the New Generation emphasis that HG has with Robotech on a going-forward basis.

[glitterboy2098]

this assumes a few things though.

Hm... you're right, I really am making a bad assumption there. I think item C is a safe one though, since they were actively planning a dedicated spaceships sourcebook at one point. I don't think they've ever really seen ship battle as a major part of the game, but the general approach seems to be that space combat works the same way as the atmospheric combat for VFs and such. YMMV as to whether or not this is actually a good thing. As someone who strongly advocates keeping things as simple as possible, I think a separate set of rules for space might be pushing things a little... the system's already a bit cluttered.

as a Liscensed property though, some effort should be made to replicate the feel of the combat seen in the show. quirks aside, the mecha stats do a decent job of replicating the feel, if not always the fine details, of the ground and air combat.

but palladium's default "space is an atmosphere" approach to space travel and combat doesn't match the show at all, in feel or details.

not to mention that the stats for starships we do already have include acceleration (the so many days to reach so many percent 'c' listings), so the fighters and mecha having a top velocity lower than actual earth orbital velocities and not using acceleration or inertia based rules makes for a lousy and impossible to use mix.

[Seto Kaiba]

as a Liscensed property though, some effort should be made to replicate the feel of the combat seen in the show. quirks aside, the mecha stats do a decent job of replicating the feel, if not always the fine details, of the ground and air combat.

I'm with you 100% on that... but some sacrifices have to be made so the game doesn't turn into calculus with dice when you're dealing with the occasional bout of space combat. Simplicity is a virtue, especially when not everyone playing the game is going to be as into the details as some of us (like me) are. Of the folks who actually buy those books to play the game instead of using 'em as an encyclopedia, a lot of them are probably just keen to hop in that VF-1 and go ruin some poor Zentradi's day.

but palladium's default "space is an atmosphere" approach to space travel and combat doesn't match the show at all, in feel or details.

To be honest, I've been running sessions of the Macross II game since 2004 and GM staff on a Macross MUSH for two or three years now, and I've never once heard a player complain about that. Accuracy is nice, just until it starts breaking the flow.

not to mention that the stats for starships we do already have include acceleration (the so many days to reach so many percent 'c' listings), so the fighter having a top velocity lower than actual earth orbital velocities and not using acceleration or inertia based rules makes for a lousy and impossible to use mix.

Well, the notion of a top velocity in space (below c) is kind of nonsense to begin with... so if we're talking rules for space then that's a non-issue. The show, however, doesn't always address the realities of space flight either. The impossibilities of several things shadow fighters are shown doing in RTSC, for example.

[glitterboy2098]

and in my experience players who switch over to acceleration and inertia based systems enjoy them immensely, even those who were reluctant due to perception of complexity.

and people keep talking about such systems as if they are complex. but how hard is addition and subtraction?

lets use an example from my version. your in a ship that can accelerate 5 mach every melee. you just left orbit, so your moving at mach 36 already. you push the throttle all the way up. now at the beginning of the next melee, your moving at mach 41. the melee after, mach 46. etc.
if you want to turn, you just point the ship where you want to go. if you want to slow down, you cut your drive, leaving you coasting. then you flip your ship. point your drive in the direction your traveling, and kick the drive in, so that the next melee you are moving 5 mach slower than before, and so on.

in combat, you cover 28 mile/ 45 kilometers for every mach you are traveling that melee. which you update at the same time you update the speed. (so in the above example, the ship starts off crossing 1008 miles in the first melee, then the next melee is crosses 1148 miles, and so on.

this isn't hard, and frankly requires little more effort than the "space is like an atmosphere "approach. and it doesn't require any kind of
mental gymnastics the "atmosphere" approach does when it comes to things like orbiting planets.




and technically, there are 'speed limits' below c, but they are all based onthe ability of a given drive type's ability to impart energy on the ship (things like exhaust velocity and the energy outputs of a drive factor in), the point where the amount of energy the drive outputs is lower than the energy needed to accellerate the ship, and most are measured in percentages of lightspeed. chemical drives for example, tend to top out below a tenth of light, while the best fusion drives we allowed by reality would top out around 70%. some of the antimatter rockets can get closer to 90%.
even reactionless drives would have upper limits, they'd just be higher than a reaction drive system.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

It's a difficult thing to visualize properly, which is why a lot of games simply don't bother with trying to implement realistic physics in space combat and take the Star Wars approach of "let's do it like they do in atmosphere because it looks cooler that way."

Funny enough, a good (if not realistic) approach to space combat in gaming was the old Star Wars RPG by WEG. The combat was rendered completely abstract by reducing it to grid movement on tabletop. The only place it really broke down was the fact that capital ships moved much slower than fighters. It was certainly the Star Wars cinematic combat, though Robotech animation would appear to follow the exact OPPOSITE model that Ships act as Carriers to bring their fighters to the Forward Edge of the Battle Area before launching them. Perhaps a more Robotech-centric version of the old Star Wars RPG space combat is the approach that should be followed?

[Seto Kaiba]

and in my experience players who switch over to acceleration and inertia based systems enjoy them immensely, even those who were reluctant due to perception of complexity.

I don't doubt that some would enjoy the added bit of realism... but I doubt the majority care either way. It'd be nice as an extra to throw in if Kevin were willing to spare the page count.

this isn't hard, and frankly requires little more effort than the "space is like an atmosphere "approach. and it doesn't require any kind of mental gymnastics the "atmosphere" approach does when it comes to things like orbiting planets.

The "space is like an atmosphere" approach that's commonly used in fiction is a lot easier for players to visualize, which is why it gets used to bloody often even if it's horribly unrealistic. The K.I.S.S. philosophy of design ("Keep It Simple, Stupid!") definitely applies.

and technically, there are 'speed limits' below c, but they are all based on the ability of a given drive type's ability to impart energy on the ship

Granted, but when we're dealing with ships that have the technology necessary to manipulate gravity, their mass, and (in the original Macross) their inertia as well, the sky's the limit for acceleration except for fuel constraints.

It's a difficult thing to visualize properly, which is why a lot of games simply don't bother with trying to implement realistic physics in space combat and take the Star Wars approach of "let's do it like they do in atmosphere because it looks cooler that way."

Funny enough, a good (if not realistic) approach to space combat in gaming was the old Star Wars RPG by WEG. The combat was rendered completely abstract by reducing it to grid movement on tabletop.

That's a good example, and it ties into my earlier remarks about visual aids really being a helpful thing to have when you're trying to wrap your brain around this kind of maneuvering. It's one of the reasons I'm so fond of Battlefleet Gothic even if it's a lesser known specialist game. The physics of space maneuvering are a core part of gameplay, but are kept simple in the rules so they won't slow the game down while still having a profound effect on strategy. (For instance, ships have a minimum compulsory move distance to represent coasting, a maximum move distance to represent moving under power, a minimum distance before they can turn which is longer for larger ships, a maximum turn depending on the size of ship, and special maneuvering orders reduce the effectiveness of the ship's weapons.)

[jaymz]

To date, the only game I've ever played that applied certain aspects of real physics to space combat and made it graceful and easy to work with was Battlefleet Gothic... the miniatures help a lot.

Check out Jovian Chronicles by Dream Pod Nine

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

For instance, ships have a minimum compulsory move distance to represent coasting, a maximum move distance to represent moving under power, a minimum distance before they can turn which is longer for larger ships, a maximum turn depending on the size of ship, and special maneuvering orders reduce the effectiveness of the ship's weapons.

Ah, I might have to check that out to incorporate in any Alternate Robotech game I run (since I use Open D6 which is based on Star Wars D6).

[jaymz]

For instance, ships have a minimum compulsory move distance to represent coasting, a maximum move distance to represent moving under power, a minimum distance before they can turn which is longer for larger ships, a maximum turn depending on the size of ship, and special maneuvering orders reduce the effectiveness of the ship's weapons.

Ah, I might have to check that out to incorporate in any Alternate Robotech game I run (since I use Open D6 which is based on Star Wars D6).

DP9 Jovian Chronicles has a 3 vector thrust system (uses hex maps) with optional rules for a 4th vector (up and down). You have to use burn points and keep track of your vector velocities and counteract them before moving in another direction

Personally I prefer the Mekton system of "movement points".

[glitterboy2098]

meh, i like Palladium's Aliens Unlimited Galaxy Guide's system. acceleration based (albeit limited to 1 mach each melee due to the limitations of the book's design system), and no need to use maps or miniatures to handle battles.

the main reason i adopted it for my rules. i just made some additional rules to cover various situations that might come up as a result, like ramming.

[jaymz]

The only issue i have with yours is you would be in range and the out of range to fast to really be able to do anything other than take a pot shot during combat.

[glitterboy2098]

The only issue i have with yours is you would be in range and the out of range to fast to really be able to do anything other than take a pot shot during combat.

not really. first, there are rules for longer ranged shots. basically you can fire out to many times the listed ranges, but at a penalty. basically the listed ranges become "range brackets" instead of limits.

Code: Select all

Section 6.) Notes on Ranges and Weapons:
the only other major alteration made is weapon ranges. because ships are much faster, weapons must be much farther ranges to compensate. while it may be tempting to just increase all ranges by 10 or even one hundred times, this does require some minor rewriting of the ship stats, and thus is to be avoided.
instead, treat the listed weapon ranges in space as Range Brackets, each providing a penalty to strike that is higher the farther away the target is. each multiple of the listed range adds a -1 to strike within that bracket, with the listed distance being the distance at which no penalty is applied. thus, for example, the anti-ship laser cannons of a CCW battleship, with a range of 1600km (1000 miles), can fire out to 1600km with no penalty, 3200km for a -1 penalty, 4800km for a -2 penalty, 6400km for a -3 penalty, and so on. depending on the bonuses to strike provided by the crew, on board targeting systems, and situational modifiers, it is possible to fire more than twenty times as far as the listed ranges before it becomes impossible to strike the target (as always, a natural twenty is an automatic hit..at any range)
this mechanic allows for more realistic ranges in space, while encouraging vessels to close to 'point blank range' to increase the chances of striking the target..creating the visual dynamics of ships practically hull to hull exchanging fire that hollywood loves so much.

and two, either both sides are going to be under thrust, and thus will be in a 'chase' type battle were the relative velocities don't move much, or they'll be mostly coasting, and using thrust just to maneuver, and thus the relative velocities will not be high.

if one ship is moving at mach 41,and the other is moving at mach 45, the relative velocity is only 4 mach. now, in a head to head pass, you might only get one melee of attacks before the enemy passes by, but head to head is not how you regularly fight. at best each force would get one head to head situation, then one or the other would turn to follow their opponent.

and honestly, the current phase world style of rules has worse problems. most fighters have weapons ranges of between one mile (most of the guns), and 5 miles (the lighter missiles). but they can move at mach 10+, meaning that in one melee they can cross over 300 miles.

[jaymz]

Oh I agree I just think this may add a bit too much complication. It may seem to you that is just add and subtract but it is still added steps to do this style of combat that I have found most people do not want. Especially if not using a map with counters.

[Seto Kaiba]

Check out Jovian Chronicles by Dream Pod Nine

Ah, now there's a familiar name...

For instance, ships have a minimum compulsory move distance to represent coasting, a maximum move distance to represent moving under power, a minimum distance before they can turn which is longer for larger ships, a maximum turn depending on the size of ship, and special maneuvering orders reduce the effectiveness of the ship's weapons.

Ah, I might have to check that out to incorporate in any Alternate Robotech game I run (since I use Open D6 which is based on Star Wars D6).

As it stands, the only part where Battlefleet Gothic's rule set gets a little clunky is the "column shift" system that's used for working shooting into maneuvers. It's a one-size-fits-all system for shooting accuracy, which is nice, but it's sometimes hard to remember whether you shift columns left or right on the table for the orientation of the ship shooting and the ship being shot at. It's one system that accounts for a variety of phenomena like the increased ease of hitting a ship that's side-on to you or closing with you, or the difficulty of hitting one that's front-on, with the sun at its back, obscured by celestial phenomena, and so on. The problem I have with glitterboy2098's system is that it doesn't really seem to lend itself well to the (relatively) low speed dodge-a-thons that were used for space combat in the Macross Saga... what he's done is more like how it would actually be (zipping right along past each other with only time for a single potshot before you're past the enemy unless you're on their 6).

Oh I agree I just think this may add a bit too much complication. It may seem to you that is just add and subtract but it is still added steps to do this style of combat that I have found most people do not want. Especially if not using a map with counters.

We keep coming back to that "it gets easier with a visual aid". Maybe we should lean on Kevin to make the bloody minis anyway just for the sake of space combat.

[glitterboy2098]

The problem I have with glitterboy2098's system is that it doesn't really seem to lend itself well to the (relatively) low speed dodge-a-thons that were used for space combat in the Macross Saga... what he's done is more like how it would actually be (zipping right along past each other with only time for a single potshot before you're past the enemy unless you're on their 6).

actually, in the show the head on passes don't last long before the two units pass each other. and the dodge-fests occur in dog fights, generally as the two mecha jockey for position on each other's six or otherwise orbit around a common movement vector.

I think i should spend more time discussing relative velocities in my rifter article. aside from the head on pass, your generally subtracting the speeds, not adding. the end result, unless your players just really don't understand how to conserve reaction mass or insist on leaving the throttle wide open at all times, is going to be relatively low relative velocities (that is, the two mecha will be moving slowly compared to each other).

[FreelancerMar]

Well if nothing else, if one does indeed have the OLD Ship books you can fall back on those at least for the Macross portion of Robotech. One also must remember that each and every RT product produced by PB has to go to hg before it can be sent to the printer under the current license. It is possable that KS just didn't want to have to deal with that and scrubbed the book.

[rtsurfer]

Robotech without spaceships(and I mean the full range of them) is like a sandwich without bread...And without attention to the ships, Southern Cross suffers badly like it did in the first edition, with a few weak shuttlecraft to play with(at least the second time around we got the Tristar), and Shadow Chronicles is just NewGen rewarmed if we don't have the Icarus, as well as the new Horizons to get things moving into new territory(I'm really hoping they'll appear in any future Marines book if the Spaceships compendium has been scrubbed).

At the risk of sounding churlish, there aren't actually that many kinds of ships in the Robotech Masters Saga (just five in total, not counting shuttles of varying types), only one of which plays a major and direct role in the story... and then, as a set piece/backdrop rather than a fighting ship. It'd be nice to have the coverage, and it's be nicer still if we could get Harmony Gold to give us a yea or nay on the variations of the Tristar, and I'd be over the moon were the writers allowed to do things like address and rationalize the differences between the RTSC and original versions of certain ships... let's just hope Kevin gets back to me and Wolfe about reviving the book.

How did you come up with only 5 Masters Saga ships?
Variations of the Tristar?
Why are the RTSC vessels different? Well when the Shadow Forces arrived and activated the Shadow Universe Alternate Reality Device (SUARD) it retconfigured everything in Robotech to Yoonieverse specifications
Good idea, let two fans who are constantly getting into disagreements with other fans over Robotech continuity and technology write The Big Book of Robotech Spaceships.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Good idea, let two fans who are constantly getting into disagreements with other fans over Robotech continuity and technology write The Big Book of Robotech Spaceships.

yeah, Sadly that was Kevin's reason for not even looking over RSCF's treatment for the Master's saga book... Honestly, I can care less about writing it, I'd like to see the project continued, just not in Jackson Irvine's hands. what he did with the New Gen book makes the Zent Ninjas in ghost-ship look accurate to the show.
i know Seto's treatment of the Macross Era would be accurate to the OSM spec's Mr. Yune prefers.

[ESalter]

I appologize but I have been away from the boards for a long while - been busy with family, career and other assorted stuff and when I checked back the Robotech Spacehip book (title I am not sure of) is no longer mentioned?

Did that get scrubbed?

Yes.

[keir451]

Robotech is a hard setting to do accurately at times, In My Games I typically do a descriptive approach; "Your ship comes screaming in at .25 of light firing with everything its got.." using my hands as "the ships" and the rolls to determine strikes.
I would LOVE to get my hands on some of the Japanese models that I saw years ago when I was stationed in Sasebo, but I've no way (currently) to afford them or find those who might know where to get them.
It gets even harder when you try to cross RT/Macross 2 into 3G as the ranges and speeds differ so much.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well if nothing else, if one does indeed have the OLD Ship books you can fall back on those at least for the Macross portion of Robotech.

Granted, one could always fall back on the old Macross II: Deck Plans supplement books... though their stats are a little broken compared to what's shown in the 2nd Edition RT game. (Those books preserve the original, dialogue-accurate weapons ranges for Zentradi ships that push into the hundreds of thousands of kilometers, compared to the ~10k or so we got in 2E.)

One also must remember that each and every RT product produced by PB has to go to hg before it can be sent to the printer under the current license. It is possable that KS just didn't want to have to deal with that and scrubbed the book.

Reportedly, the book was scrubbed because Palladium dismissed its author (Marker) and simply didn't have the time or the means to bring someone else in to finish it.

How did you come up with only 5 Masters Saga ships?

Because five is the number of ship designs actually present in the animation and animation materials... the Liberte warship (RT: Tokugawa class), the Glorie warship (RT: Tristar class, did anyone else get the pun there?), the mothership used by the Zor Lords, the escort ship, and that one wedge-shaped cruiser. Tommy (sensibly) doesn't seem to have given any weight to the various fan-fiction variations of the Tristar class. Unless he were to approve those, that leaves us (or an enterprising writer for the Spaceships book) with just five classes of ship.

Variations of the Tristar?

Are not canon, and thus likely to meet with rejection from the Yune-itoons universe.

Why are the RTSC vessels different? Well when the Shadow Forces arrived and activated the Shadow Universe Alternate Reality Device (SUARD) it retconfigured everything in Robotech to Yoonieverse specifications

Well, if we take the visuals at face value, the RTSC versions of the Ikazuchi, Garfish, etc. are different from the versions seen at the start of the New Generation. So even if we assume RTSC has retroactively replaced the last two eps of the New Generation, there are still two separate and distinct versions of those ships with radically different capabilities, partly as the result of the stated 2043-4 retrofit of the UEEF fleet at Tiresia high anchor and/or Space Station Liberty.

Good idea, let two fans who are constantly getting into disagreements with other fans over Robotech continuity and technology write The Big Book of Robotech Spaceships.

Actually, we agree on a fair bit... rather more than we used to, considering the results of what I've turned up while doing some digging into the origins of Robotech's stats, but my views are probably less likely to meet with rejection by the Yune-atic, since I'm still fairly willing to go along with the stats and whatnot for the rebooted universe.

yeah, Sadly that was Kevin's reason for not even looking over RSCF's treatment for the Master's saga book... Honestly, I can care less about writing it, I'd like to see the project continued, just not in Jackson Irvine's hands.

Well, meaning no disrespect to the man, we all know that Rabid Southern Cross Fan is an avid proponent of several fan theories that are "unpopular" with The Powers That Be over at Harmony Gold. (Shrewfield Veritech, Multiple classes of ASC warship, derpy derpy doo...) I imagine a treatment he penned for the Masters Saga sourcebook would probably push many or all of those theories, even in light of their lack of support. I'd like to see the project kept out of Irvine's hands as well, after seeing the New Generation book I think it's best if it's handed to someone outside the current staff.

i know Seto's treatment of the Macross Era would be accurate to the OSM spec's Mr. Yune prefers.

Ruthlessly so... but part of that may be a self-fulfilling prophecy, since on more than one occasion Tommy's gotten some OSM-related particulars directly from me or from my translation notes.

I would LOVE to get my hands on some of the Japanese models that I saw years ago when I was stationed in Sasebo, but I've no way (currently) to afford them or find those who might know where to get them.

Depends which models you're talking about... I've got a few places I could probably recommend, and I also employ a few "bounty hunters" who frequently travel to (or live in) Japan to hunt down particularly hard to find items. The models that have been made for Macross ships are probably too big for something like a miniatures game, and I'm not sure if they ever made ship models for Southern Cross or MOSPEADA.

It gets even harder when you try to cross RT/Macross 2 into 3G as the ranges and speeds differ so much.

Yep, gotta be something to do with those 280,000km+ weapons ranges...

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Because five is the number of ship designs actually present in the animation and animation materials... the Liberte warship (RT: Tokugawa class), the Glorie warship (RT: Tristar class, did anyone else get the pun there?), the mothership used by the Zor Lords, the escort ship, and that one wedge-shaped cruiser.

Uh, let's see.

Earth Forces: Tokugawa (Outsiders), Tristar (The Hunters), Battlecruiser (Dana's Story), 'Destroyer Escort' (Triumvirate), Transport (Mind Games)
Robotech Masters: City-ship, Heavy Cruiser, Multipurpose Transport, Bioroid Landing Frigate

I count 9 capital or sub-capital ships. This doesn't include the smaller craft like shuttles used by both sides.

Tommy (sensibly) doesn't seem to have given any weight to the various fan-fiction variations of the Tristar class. Unless he were to approve those, that leaves us (or an enterprising writer for the Spaceships book) with just five classes of ship.

Except we know that there are Flagships and Battlecruisers as per dialogue and you can clearly see the difference in the reaction engine pattern (not to mention sizes): Tokugawa's have - 12, Tristar's - 4 (diamond pattern), Battlecruisers - 4 (left-right) and 'Destroyer Escorts' - 2

Edit: BTW, here is the Robotech.com entry on the Tristar's -

The Tristar-class cruisers often served as flagships of the Southern Cross

Some several dozen vessels of this class were built, and most were lost in the Second Robotech War.

The on-screen counts for UEF starships during the series are far higher than 'several dozen'. There has to be more ships than just the Tokugawa's and Tristar's.

Where the lineart is concerned is irrelevant. For one thing, Harmony Gold did not even have the full catalog of it. I know because I helped Tom Bateman organize it.

[Seto Kaiba]

Uh, let's see.

Thank you for such a dramatic illustration of my point.

Where the lineart is concerned is irrelevant. For one thing, Harmony Gold did not even have the full catalog of it. I know because I helped Tom Bateman organize it.

Where the line art is concerned, not even official Southern Cross material has a full catalog of it... mainly because a great many of those "designs" seem to have never been designed at all. The show's dialogue is hardly infallible, and tends toward inconsistency in many areas. They acknowledge what they acknowledge, and if we don't like it well we're welcome to go pound sand, because they have the authority to decide what's official and correct for Robotech and we don't.

Believe you me, after some of the research Colonel Wolfe (unintentionally) prompted me to do, I'd be having at many Robotech stats with a hatchet if Tommy'd give me half the chance. Some of what's there is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE, often to the point where I find myself thinking "Guys, you fail math forever".

[keir451]

Well if nothing else, if one does indeed have the OLD Ship books you can fall back on those at least for the Macross portion of Robotech.

Granted, one could always fall back on the old Macross II: Deck Plans supplement books... though their stats are a little broken compared to what's shown in the 2nd Edition RT game. (Those books preserve the original, dialogue-accurate weapons ranges for Zentradi ships that push into the hundreds of thousands of kilometers, compared to the ~10k or so we got in 2E.)

One also must remember that each and every RT product produced by PB has to go to hg before it can be sent to the printer under the current license. It is possable that KS just didn't want to have to deal with that and scrubbed the book.

Reportedly, the book was scrubbed because Palladium dismissed its author (Marker) and simply didn't have the time or the means to bring someone else in to finish it.

How did you come up with only 5 Masters Saga ships?

Because five is the number of ship designs actually present in the animation and animation materials... the Liberte warship (RT: Tokugawa class), the Glorie warship (RT: Tristar class, did anyone else get the pun there?), the mothership used by the Zor Lords, the escort ship, and that one wedge-shaped cruiser. Tommy (sensibly) doesn't seem to have given any weight to the various fan-fiction variations of the Tristar class. Unless he were to approve those, that leaves us (or an enterprising writer for the Spaceships book) with just five classes of ship.

Variations of the Tristar?

Are not canon, and thus likely to meet with rejection from the Yune-itoons universe.

Why are the RTSC vessels different? Well when the Shadow Forces arrived and activated the Shadow Universe Alternate Reality Device (SUARD) it retconfigured everything in Robotech to Yoonieverse specifications

Well, if we take the visuals at face value, the RTSC versions of the Ikazuchi, Garfish, etc. are different from the versions seen at the start of the New Generation. So even if we assume RTSC has retroactively replaced the last two eps of the New Generation, there are still two separate and distinct versions of those ships with radically different capabilities, partly as the result of the stated 2043-4 retrofit of the UEEF fleet at Tiresia high anchor and/or Space Station Liberty.

Good idea, let two fans who are constantly getting into disagreements with other fans over Robotech continuity and technology write The Big Book of Robotech Spaceships.

Actually, we agree on a fair bit... rather more than we used to, considering the results of what I've turned up while doing some digging into the origins of Robotech's stats, but my views are probably less likely to meet with rejection by the Yune-atic, since I'm still fairly willing to go along with the stats and whatnot for the rebooted universe.

yeah, Sadly that was Kevin's reason for not even looking over RSCF's treatment for the Master's saga book... Honestly, I can care less about writing it, I'd like to see the project continued, just not in Jackson Irvine's hands.

Well, meaning no disrespect to the man, we all know that Rabid Southern Cross Fan is an avid proponent of several fan theories that are "unpopular" with The Powers That Be over at Harmony Gold. (Shrewfield Veritech, Multiple classes of ASC warship, derpy derpy doo...) I imagine a treatment he penned for the Masters Saga sourcebook would probably push many or all of those theories, even in light of their lack of support. I'd like to see the project kept out of Irvine's hands as well, after seeing the New Generation book I think it's best if it's handed to someone outside the current staff.

i know Seto's treatment of the Macross Era would be accurate to the OSM spec's Mr. Yune prefers.

Ruthlessly so... but part of that may be a self-fulfilling prophecy, since on more than one occasion Tommy's gotten some OSM-related particulars directly from me or from my translation notes.

I would LOVE to get my hands on some of the Japanese models that I saw years ago when I was stationed in Sasebo, but I've no way (currently) to afford them or find those who might know where to get them.

Depends which models you're talking about... I've got a few places I could probably recommend, and I also employ a few "bounty hunters" who frequently travel to (or live in) Japan to hunt down particularly hard to find items. The models that have been made for Macross ships are probably too big for something like a miniatures game, and I'm not sure if they ever made ship models for Southern Cross or MOSPEADA.

It gets even harder when you try to cross RT/Macross 2 into 3G as the ranges and speeds differ so much.

Yep, gotta be something to do with those 280,000km+ weapons ranges...

I remember seeing a model for the Macross itself and in a hobby shop in Denver I saw a model of the Zentran flagship. A couple of those would be good as I have this rampaging idea centered around a crashed starship, kinda like the Macragg set from 40K.
As for the ranges; But I LIKE being able to destroy my enemies from half a million KM away!!!

[Seto Kaiba]

I remember seeing a model for the Macross itself and in a hobby shop in Denver I saw a model of the Zentran flagship. A couple of those would be good as I have this rampaging idea centered around a crashed starship, kinda like the Macragg set from 40K.

Oh, there's loads... there've been like half a dozen different models for the various types of Zentradi ships, made in various scales. They turn up on eBay from time to time, and MacrossWorld's "Wanted" forum is also a great place to look. Some of the crowd there have made cheaper recasts of them to keep obscure models in circulation too. They were promising a 1/2000 scale SDF-1 Macross a while back (which sounds ideal until you realize that's still TWO FEET LONG). I've got a transformable 1/5000 DYRL version of the Macross perched on my desk. I don't think they made 'em all that small tho, even the tiny ones are still five or six inches long.

EDIT: Took a peek, there are a couple of the old 1/20000 scale Zentradi ships floatin' around on eBay right now for about $50 a pop. Would've really done mini fans a favor if RT or Macross had done a Micro-Machines style line like Star Wars and Star Trek did.

As for the ranges; But I LIKE being able to destroy my enemies from half a million KM away!!!

So do the Zentradi... (and the denizens of the WH40K setting, since you mentioned it). Palladium and Dream Pod 9 used the dialogue from the series as a starting point for the ship stats in the old Deck Plans books. Vanessa Laird's the one who says that the Macross fired on and hit a ship 280,000km (about 1 light second) away. (More impressive when you realize they'd hit it DEAD CENTER.)

[Sgt Anjay]

The footage of Southern Cross consistently and repeatedly across multiple episodes show three vastly different and easily identifiable engine configurations. Those configurations exist. To say nothing of the Banshee, which is repeatedly and consistently shown smaller and with a completely different bridge: flush at the top of the hull rather than the conning tower design of the other ships.

"A" mistake is one thing, a set of distinctive characteristics for a design repeatedly appearing across multiple episodes is not only not an "invention" of fans, its something that can only happen by intent. We're not talking about something as outlandish as, says, naval vessels as background filler in space. The variantion present in the animation within the aforementioned parameters (bridge configuration, engine configuration, and size) are no more severe than the noticeable differences shown in ships like the Ikes in New Gen.

[Seto Kaiba]

The footage of Southern Cross consistently and repeatedly across multiple episodes show three vastly different and easily identifiable engine configurations. Those configurations exist.

Yet there is no hard evidence of any kind to suggest that these are anything more than ships being drawn off model, an assessment that beggars belief considering the appalling lack of animation model sheet materials for both the Zor and Glorie forces ships. There is also the possibility that these are not separate classes, but variations of one class produced over a considerable span of time. Simply wanting something to be true will not make it so. If it did, there would've been an abrupt decanonization of Shadow Chronicles back in '07.

"A" mistake is one thing, a set of distinctive characteristics for a design repeatedly appearing across multiple episodes is not only not an "invention" of fans, its something that can only happen by intent.

Actually, it's perfectly possible for off-model errors to recur... sometimes multiple times in a single episode. There's plenty of examples of this in shows where the animation workload was dumped on third-tier animators or farmed out to cheaper satellite studios to save on production costs. To cite an example, Macross 7 has a couple episode run early on where Milia digs her old VF-1J out of storage and it mysteriously keeps turning into a VF-1A when they do quick shot flybys.

Pointing to a potential error or inconsistency in the show and trying to pass it off as though it were an intentionally created design with a defined purpose bereft of actual proof of intent does make the result a "fan invention" That kind of thing has been done a LOT by Robotech fans over the decades, which is the main reason the stats in the Infopedia (written by fans) are such an appalling mess... and is also a compelling argument for never letting a Robotech fan write Robotech material.

We're not talking about something as outlandish as, says, naval vessels as background filler in space. The variantion present in the animation within the aforementioned parameters (bridge configuration, engine configuration, and size) are no more severe than the noticeable differences shown in ships like the Ikes in New Gen.

Ironic, then, that these supposed variations are ALSO consigned to the "not recognized" bin in the New Generation, yes? Harmony Gold picks and chooses what's official and what's not because they're all too aware that there were errors, some persistent and some not, in the original shows... not to mention the ones introduced during the very rushed rewriting process. Some have been deliberately canonized, others have been ignored.

[Sgt Anjay]

The footage of Southern Cross consistently and repeatedly across multiple episodes show three vastly different and easily identifiable engine configurations.  Those configurations exist.

Yet there is no hard evidence of any kind to suggest that these are anything more than ships being drawn off model.

Yes there is.  The fact that those three bridge-and-engine configurations consistently appear across multiple episodes, to include feauture shots (i.e. take-offs), pan shots (i.e. shots of main characters perusing a fleet on the launch pads), instances where the ships are intentionally highlighted (i.e. when main characters like Marie or the 15th are aboard), to say nothing of the multiple episodes in which the Tristar is prominent as Emerson’s command.  Mistakes aren’t that consistent; in fact, one might say the inconsistency is what shows a mistake to be a mistake. 
 
Is there any footage where the conning tower bridge is paired with the 2-engine ship?  Is there any footage where the the hull-conformal bridge is paired with either the diamond-4 or flat-4 engines?  In other words, is there anything actually suggesting that the configurations are mistakes of any sort?

There is also the possibility that these are not separate classes, but variations of one class produced over a considerable span of time.

Going by standards used by experts to delineate what ships are in what classes in real life, vastly different engine and superstructure configurations on the same base ship can easily be considered different classes.  So even if the evidence-less supposition that they are all the same base ship were to hold water, it is still accurate to call each configuration that consistently appears over and over a different class.
 

Simply wanting something to be true will not make it so.

Physician, heal thyself.
 
 

"A" mistake is one thing, a set of distinctive characteristics for a design repeatedly appearing across multiple episodes is not only not an "invention" of fans, its something that can only happen by intent.

Actually, it's perfectly possible for off-model errors to recur...  sometimes multiple times in a single episode.  There's plenty of examples of this in shows where the animation workload was dumped on third-tier animators or farmed out to cheaper satellite studios to save on production costs.  To cite an example, Macross 7 has a couple episode run early on where Milia digs her old VF-1J out of storage and it mysteriously keeps turning into a VF-1A when they do quick shot flybys. 

Well luckily this is not that, because it isn’t inconsistent representations in an episode, its consistent representations across multiple episodes.  Since you brought up that example, is there an instance within the Southern Cross footage where a ship shifts bridge and/or engine configuration the way that Valkyrie changes model in the Macross 7 footage?  Because again, I’m not seeing evidence in the footage that the different configurations are mistakes.
 

Pointing to a potential error or inconsistency in the show and trying to pass it off as though it were an intentionally created design with a defined purpose bereft of actual proof of intent does make the result a "fan invention"

Is there anything tangible that suggests the different engine and bridge layouts are potential errors?
 
 
 

We're not talking about something as outlandish as, says, naval vessels as background filler in space.  The variantion present in the animation within the aforementioned parameters (bridge configuration, engine configuration, and size) are no more severe than the noticeable differences shown in ships like the Ikes in New Gen.

Ironic, then, that these supposed variations are ALSO consigned to the "not recognized" bin in the New Generation, yes?

  Not ironic at all.  There are variations in the appearance of Ikes, but they’re all recognizably Ikes and all considered Ikes.  Likewise, there are variations in the appearance of the conning-tower diamond-4 design (Tristar), the conning-tower flat-4 design (Battle/Ardennes), and the no-tower 2-engine design (Banshee)…but they remain recognizably distinct designs as per the features I have listed.
 
The bottom line is, I don’t have a position and am trying to change what is evident to fit it, I am looking at what is evident and am forming my position based on it.
 

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes there is.

Since you seem to be unclear on the meaning of the words "Hard Evidence", allow me to explain.

Put bluntly... the mere repetition of an error does not, in and of itself, constitute proof of intent on the part of the show's production staff. Animation production for weekly TV wasn't exactly a precise process back in the late 70's and early 80's, with the animation being hand-drawn and per-episode production budgets much smaller than those we see these days. It isn't even a slight exaggeration to say that shows like Space Battleship Yamato and Mobile Suit Gundam had an alarming number of inconsistencies in their animation, sometimes very consistent inconsistencies that the creators tried to acknowledge and correct years down the road in new titles (e.g. Yamato 2199).

That a particular error can recur multiple times across the length of a series is not proof that it was intentional, not even if that error is sometimes very prominent. Hard evidence of intent includes things like animation model sheets, the designer's notes and concept art, screenplays, etc. No hard evidence exists to support the notion that these variations were not an animation studio error, with the "Glorie warship" being drawn off-model.

Going by standards used by experts to delineate what ships are in what classes in real life,

Standards which are irrelevant, as Robotech ascribes to an almost Star Trek view on such things, and anime in general tends to be somewhat loose on the matter. Robotech's official materials do not acknowledge these alleged classes of ship either... so, regardless, they'd have to be left out of the Spaceships book unless Tommy could be talked into reversing their position and acknowledging them sight-unseen, and we all know THAT'S not going to happen.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Tristar Infopedia entry

Indeed, because these and the other second-generation naval vessels were all of similar shapes and painted in dark colors to minimize visibility in space, it was often only the engine configuration that allowed one to distinguish one vessel from another.

form this statement in the infopedia, there are at LEAST 2 other classes of this (other... vessels), and they were mostly identifiable by their engine patterns...

Can't be the Tokugawa they are talking about... its a different color completely....

[Seto Kaiba]

form this statement in the infopedia, there are at LEAST 2 other classes of this (other... vessels), and they were mostly identifiable by their engine patterns...

Yet none are identified. The chief stumbling block for writing the Spaceships book is going to be, as I've said, that putting any or all of those alleged other classes of ship into the book would be subject to Tommy's approval. The only things which are guaranteed to make it are the designs that have already received official recognition in the Infopedia. If these had been recognized as official designs, it'd be a slam dunk. But they haven't been.

Can't be the Tokugawa they are talking about... its a different color completely....

Actually, it can... it doesn't say they were painted the same color, just that they were painted dark colors. The Tokugawa was originally painted a dark grey, and it only got darker after its refit.

[jaymz]

Yet none are identified. The chief stumbling block for writing the Spaceships book is going to be, as I've said, that putting any or all of those alleged other classes of ship into the book would be subject to Tommy's approval. The only things which are guaranteed to make it are the designs that have already received official recognition in the Infopedia. If these had been recognized as official designs, it'd be a slam dunk. But they haven't been.

not to mention they had ample opportunity to identify and accept these classes of ships since the guys who essentially did the infopedia did in fact acknowledge the classes themselves yet Tommy/HG did not....

[Sgt Anjay]

Yes there is.

Since you seem to be unclear on the meaning of the words "Hard Evidence"

Thanks for the personal jibe. That surely makes your argument stronger.

In other shows there is evidence that creators have gone back and retconned things shown but unwanted. Or admit that they didn't mean to include something they did. That is evidence of a mistake. In this show, that isn't the case. Unless you can cough up something similar, you have a null argument. It simply doesn't make sense to assume any given thing is a mistake, just because mistakes are capable of existing. By any sane measure, "They did it over and over again" is evidence they meant to do it, unless there is evidence otherwise. "They consistently drew it over and over again" is evidence they meant to draw it, unless something else comes along to show it was a mistake. I have asked for anything whatsoever to show that they didn't mean to do it. You have nothing. The sum total of your position is "Mistakes can happen, so this has to be a mistake." You lack evidence to back your supposition.

Going by standards used by experts to delineate what ships are in what classes in real life,

Standards which are irrelevant, as Robotech ascribes to an almost Star Trek view on such things, and anime in general tends to be somewhat loose on the matter.

Robotech doesn't have any inherent hard and fast rules on the matter so which standards one uses are personal choice. Since real-world naval standards are the root of all such systems, would clearly be the root of any such in-universe system in Robotech, hold weight with most who would be interested in what constitutes a ship class in absence of another delineated system, and are easily looked up by any who wish to verify my statements, that is the one which I put forth.

Incidentally, do you actually have any evidence of a ship classification system in which different engine configurations and numbers, different hull structures, and different sizes wouldn't constitute a separate classes? Because you didn't actually provide any in that statement, you just vague insinuations.

Robotech's official materials do not acknowledge these alleged classes of ship either... so, regardless, they'd have to be left out of the Spaceships book unless Tommy could be talked into reversing their position and acknowledging them sight-unseen, and we all know THAT'S not going to happen.

Funnily enough, that other people can be wrong and stubborn doesn't stop me front pointing out what is true based on the visual evidence in the footage.

Then again, my personal opinion rates what the actual footage shows more than a johnny-come-lately creative team known to be creating a continuity separate from that of the footage. The opinions of others, of course, may vary.

[jaymz]

Then again, my personal opinion rates what the actual footage shows more than a johnny-come-lately creative team known to be creating a continuity separate from that of the footage. The opinions of others, of course, may vary.

The problem here is this: that creative team is who decides what is and is not Robotech making everything else, your personal opinion included, nothing more the conjecture and fanfic.

As I said on Facebook, the only way to be 100% accurate is to find out if Tommy/HG recognize that there is additional classes (I personally think there are otherwise I would not have created stats for them). If they do not acknowledge that then it is irrelevant what the rest of us think.

[Sgt Anjay]

Then again, my personal opinion rates what the actual footage shows more than a johnny-come-lately creative team known to be creating a continuity separate from that of the footage. The opinions of others, of course, may vary.

The problem here is this: that creative team is who decides what is and is not Robotech making everything else, your personal opinion included, nothing more the conjecture and fanfic.

As I said on Facebook, the only way to be 100% accurate is to find out if Tommy/HG recognize that there is additional classes (I personally think there are otherwise I would not have created stats for them). If they do not acknowledge that then it is irrelevant what the rest of us think.

Actually, I am no more beholden to their version of Robotech as THE version of Robotech than I am to hold any given version of Superman, or Spider-man, or Batman as THE version of that character/universe. They are not infallible. It doesn't automatically erase from the face of the Earth all the other previous versions of Robotech. It doesn't invalidate the fact that the new creative team are separate and different from those that actually created Robotech, and thus can't speak as if they originated anything, undercutting any great revelations they put forth in contradiction to the core of the material. Any authority they wield holds absolutely no water if it is roundly ignored by those who would actually care about the property they are in creative control of. And of course the fact that a new creative team can come along and wipe all their works away as easily as they wipe the works of others makes adhering to their word as law pretty pointless.

The current creative team controls what new products come out, and what the content of those products are. The is the sum total of their actual authority.

[jaymz]

That is all well and good (and believe me I am my own island on this as I am completely rewriting all the stats for Robotech) but it still makes anything you, I or anyone else accept as fact, nothing more than fanfiction/conjecture until the people in charge say otherwise whoever they may be and when that may occur.

[Sgt Anjay]

Just because something isn't "official" doesn't make it wrong...especially when at best, there is official silence on the matter, not invalidation. Just because something is official doesn't make it better...especially when there's different kinds of "official", what is "official" can change on a whim, and "official" hurts more than it helps.

[jaymz]

Just because something isn't "official" doesn't make it wrong...especially when at best, there is official silence on the matter, not invalidation. Just because something is official doesn't make it better...especially when there's different kinds of "official", what is "official" can change on a whim, and "official" hurts more than it helps.

I don't disagree but it still remains that what we say is fact is not until the powers that be say it is. It sucks but that is the way it is.

It is also why I said the only way to be sure is to get it from Tommy directly since as you said there is a silence on the matter. I'd rather know one way or the other than know nothing at all.

[Sgt Anjay]

Actually, anything the current creative team says is fact for their products, so its nice that they've explicitly created a different continuity than that of the original tv series. Its a version of Robotech, not the sum total.

Just because something is true in their version of Robotech doesn't make it true for every version of Robotech, just like what is true for the current versions of Superman, or Batman, or Spider-man, etc isn't true for every version of those characters/fictional continuities.