Small Characters and Armor Question

[TheGameMaster]

Not sure if there is a thread for this already or not. If there is, can someone post a link?

For smaller creatures, such as Gnomes and Hytrill and the likes, dose armor have the same ratings as they would for a normal size creature? Small armor would use less material, so wouldn't it have a lower armor rating or less SDC?

[Cinos]

I don't think there officially is, but a relative cut to SDC seems in order. AR should stay about the same, since it more represents how hard it is to get around the armor, and if the same amount of body is being covered it should stay. Cost should go down a touch as well of course.

[Severus Snape]

And now, I have to disagree with Cinos. Not that his points aren't valid - they are. I just disagree.

While smaller than man-sized armor of equivalent make and model, smaller-than-man-sized armor shouldn't have any reductions in AR or SDC. The materials are the same, the worksmanship is the same (although it could be argued that dwarven and gnomish work is MUCH better than human), and you are still covering the same area of the body. Plate armor is plate armor is plate armor, regardless of who it is covering.

Now, if you do decide to cut AR or SDC for smaller than man-sized armors, are you going to increase the SDC and AR for Giant-sized armor? It's simple logic, really...

[Ravenwing]

Personally I agree with cutting the SDC, but retaining the AR. Less Material, less Structure to damage, which is pretty much SDC to me. AR however should remain the same, because while smaller and having less material, it still covers/protects the same as a full sized suit. Myself, I'd cut SDC in half for a Gnome sized suit. If that seems to much go with a 20% reduction.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. I actually considered this a while back and included it as part of an article I sent to Palladium (and may see print sometime this year, but not sure when, if it's not pushed back even further). Since the article is close to 90 pages and the small snippet isn't even half a page (and I'm editing out a couple of other things), I'll include it here (and consider it a small preview).

Spoiler:

Gnomes
Armor A.R. /S.D.C.: A gnome-sized suit of armor has half as much S.D.C. as a full suit of armor. On the plus size, due to their small size, larger opponents will have trouble landing a good hit on such a small target effectively raising the armor rating by 1 point. This means a full suit of chain mail (A.R. 14, S.D.C. 44) now has an A.R. 15, S.D.C. 22.
Cost: Due to fair availability and less material required to make the items the cost is also cut in half. This causes a 30 gold saber to only cost 15 gold for a gnome sized version, and a 200 gold suit of studded leather to only cost 100 gold pieces.

Giants
Armor A.R. /S.D.C.: Giant sized armor can take more damage because there is simply more of it. The S.D.C. is increased by 50%. Unfortunately, the larger size and wider areas provides more weak points for easier penetration effectively reducing the armor rating by 2 points. A full suit of plate (A.R. 17, S.D.C. 160) now has an A.R. 15, S.D.C. 240.
Cost: Few make this type of armor resulting in almost every request being a custom job which is considerably more expensive. If someone friendly to the giant can be found the price may only be twice the standard cost. Similarly, this can be a similar price if the giant is lucky enough to find one already made and for sale (uncommon). For giants custom jobs usually cost four times as much as the human equivalent.

I think I used the notes for adjustments to weapons damage, as well as the notes in the Ogre and Troll sections about custom items to use as a building block. Also note that A.R. adjustments are figuring the character is fighting someone of a different size (as in either fighting a human sized opponent). This would probably be ignored if fighting someone of an equal size. Anyways, this is just my take. Your preferences my vary. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[Cinos]

And now, I have to disagree with Cinos. Not that his points aren't valid - they are. I just disagree.

While smaller than man-sized armor of equivalent make and model, smaller-than-man-sized armor shouldn't have any reductions in AR or SDC. The materials are the same, the worksmanship is the same (although it could be argued that dwarven and gnomish work is MUCH better than human), and you are still covering the same area of the body. Plate armor is plate armor is plate armor, regardless of who it is covering.

Now, if you do decide to cut AR or SDC for smaller than man-sized armors, are you going to increase the SDC and AR for Giant-sized armor? It's simple logic, really...

Yes I would because it is logical? Giants have more SDC just because theirs more of them, while gnomes have less SDC because there's less of them. I'll grant you that if you want to claim some craftsman is super good at it and can make gnome sized armor equal to human sized sure, so long as you're willing to also accept that those people could make human sized armor with far better SDC with practice on the size. By the logic that plate armor is plate armor regardless of size, then a small metal buckler should have the same SDC as a Sword, or a tower shield made of plate, a Helm the same as a breast plate, which is pretty full of holes.

[Prysus]

I'll grant you that if you want to claim some craftsman is super good at it and can make gnome sized armor equal to human sized sure, so long as you're willing to also accept that those people could make human sized armor with far better SDC with practice on the size.

Greetings and Salutations. Well, there is the Superior Armor numbers on page 272. So Palladium actually has something that fits what's described well. No, I'm not saying Palladium intended it to be used to adjust for gnome armor, just that it has a concept that will work for the overall concept (and the bonus to human sized armor). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[JuliusCreed]

For me and my players, AR stays the same regardless of size differences. AR is is a measure of how effectively a suit of armor protects the wearer using the principles of material strength coupled with the amount of overall coverage. For example a Suit of Full Plate covers a body from head to toe with an AR of 17. A full suit of Studded Leather also covers the wearer from head to toe, but with an AR of only 13. The 4 point difference is the basic structural differences and resistance to damage of Steel vs. Leather.

Conversely, SDC for smaller suits of armor should be reduced because there just isn't as much material making up the smaller suits as there is for larger ones. A full suit of Human sized plate armor has 160 SDC because it's made up of about 60 pounds of shaped and molded steel. Using the same amount of steel to make a suit of plate armor for a Gnome would result in a Gnome sized suit of plate armor with 160 SDC, but it would be comprised of plates so thick he really couldn't effectively move! Now if you shave most of that thickness away to the point that the Gnome can actually move and still have full AR 17 coverage, logic dictates that the material removed makes the armor comparatively weaker. There just isn't as much steel there anymore. SDC is therefor reduced. The same can also be said about armor made for any humanoid that is radically smaller than Human sized, for example Dwarves, Goblins, Kobolds and so on. However, for these races the reduction is not as drastic, seeing as how they are still taller than the diminutive Gnomes.

On the flip side, Giant sized armor would see an increase in SDC to be effective as armor. Using the example of 60 pounds of steel comprising a Human sized suit of Plate armor, that same 60 pounds of metal stretched over a Troll would most likely be maybe a bit thicker than your average sheet of aluminum foil and provide about as much protection. More material, and thusly more SDC, must be added to make the armor effective. There are a few grey areas involved here though, based on the overall size of the giant in question, particularly with Ogres and Wolfen. While considered Giant Sized races, both of them, according to physical descriptions given, have a MINIMUM height range of about 7 feet. While tall, it's not much taller than above average humans. Standing 6'4" tall myself and having a few cousins and an uncle or two that average around 6'6" and up, you can see where this grey area extends. Thus, for these 'short giants' the SDC increase is not as dramatic as it is for Trolls, True Giants, and the taller specimens of their own kind.

Game terms for the lot of this, at least in my world...
Gnome sized armor: Reduce SDC by 50%. Reduce Cost by 50%

Dwarf, Kobold and Goblin sized armor: Reduce SDC by 25%. Reduce Cost by 25%
*Dwarf sized armor CAN be made to Human SDC standards with little problems with movement due to the greater strength of this race. Goblin and Kobold sized armor can as well, but most will find it uncomfortable and cumbersome, suffering a -5% Prowl penalty due to the extra weight. If made to Human standard SDC, price is book standard.

Giant sized armor; between 7 and 9 feet tall: Increase SDC by 25%. Increase cost by 25%.
*Armor for the 'little giants' may be made with Human standard SDC rather than the increased SDC. However, the lack of structural integrity (ie thinner plates of steel, fewer/thinner layers of leather, etc) reduces the AR of the armor by 3 points (it's just easier to punch through it) If made to Human standard SDC, price is book standard.

Giant sized armor; between 9 and 14 feet tall: Increase SDC by 50%. Increase cost by 50%

Giant sized armor; 14 feet or greater in height: Double SDC. TRIPLE price.

The costs are roughly based on human average and can vary wildly. For example, while Gnome armor is listed here as having a 50% price reduction, a Human blacksmith may treat it as a custom order and double or even triple that price or more. GM's use your own discretion when dealing with the sale of armor to smaller or larger folk.

Good Luck and great gaming!

[TheGameMaster]

Thank you all for your input, I have decided to keep the AR the same and reduce the SDC. One reason I thought for doing this had something to do with Plate armor. You wouldn't use the same thickness for a smaller creature as you would for a normal sized one. It would be thinner so it would be lighter, otherwise it would just be too heavy. With that thinner metal, it would take less to break it.

[JuliusCreed]

Thank you all for your input, I have decided to keep the AR the same and reduce the SDC. One reason I thought for doing this had something to do with Plate armor. You wouldn't use the same thickness for a smaller creature as you would for a normal sized one. It would be thinner so it would be lighter, otherwise it would just be too heavy. With that thinner metal, it would take less to break it.

Actually, the plates of armor for a Gnome wouldn't neccessarily be thinner so much as just smaller in overall size. Picture dressing a 3 year old in Plate Armor. The plates themselves can have the same basic thickness as a standard Human sized suit, but they would be radically smaller, keeping the same thickness but being lighter anyway because there's less overall mass. Making the plates thinner would actually reduce the AR of the armor as the thinner material would be easier to punch through with attacks.

On the flip side, Giant sized armor would see an increase in SDC to be effective as armor. Using the example of 60 pounds of steel comprising a Human sized suit of Plate armor, that same 60 pounds of metal stretched over a Troll would most likely be maybe a bit thicker than your average sheet of aluminum foil and provide about as much protection.

The same basic concept applies when making armor plates thinner for smaller wearers to make the armor lighter. No need to make it thinner when the overall size reduction will make the armor light enough anyway.

[TheGameMaster]

Thank you all for your input, I have decided to keep the AR the same and reduce the SDC. One reason I thought for doing this had something to do with Plate armor. You wouldn't use the same thickness for a smaller creature as you would for a normal sized one. It would be thinner so it would be lighter, otherwise it would just be too heavy. With that thinner metal, it would take less to break it.

Actually, the plates of armor for a Gnome wouldn't neccessarily be thinner so much as just smaller in overall size. Picture dressing a 3 year old in Plate Armor. The plates themselves can have the same basic thickness as a standard Human sized suit, but they would be radically smaller, keeping the same thickness but being lighter anyway because there's less overall mass. Making the plates thinner would actually reduce the AR of the armor as the thinner material would be easier to punch through with attacks.

On the flip side, Giant sized armor would see an increase in SDC to be effective as armor. Using the example of 60 pounds of steel comprising a Human sized suit of Plate armor, that same 60 pounds of metal stretched over a Troll would most likely be maybe a bit thicker than your average sheet of aluminum foil and provide about as much protection.

The same basic concept applies when making armor plates thinner for smaller wearers to make the armor lighter. No need to make it thinner when the overall size reduction will make the armor light enough anyway.

Good point. I was just thinking if it was scaled down, it would have been in all aspects. Size, thickness, weight, amount of material used etc. But I think you are right

[Damian Magecraft]

Heres a question for those that alter the AR/SDC do you also alter the weight?

[JuliusCreed]

Heres a question for those that alter the AR/SDC do you also alter the weight?

Of course... with less SDC comes less material, less material means les weight. As to exact numbers that's a tough call. Overall weight of a Gnome sized suit of plate would weigh significantly less than a human sized suit. I'd say use the SDC percentage multipliers noted in my earlier post as weight modifiers as well... for example a Dwarven suit of plate Mail would have 25% less weight than a Human sized suit as well as 25% less SDC... works out to around 43 pounds or so... Gnomish sized suits would come in at around 29 pounds... and the full suit of plate armor for a 12 foot tall Troll? A whopping 82 pounds! And all of this is barring the additional 8 pounds of weight additional armor adds to the overall weight of the suit per every 10 SDC for heavy armor and 20 SDC for soft armor.
Which brings up an interesting aside on the subject; Considering the amount of mass getting added to a suit of armor to give it extra non-magical SDC, would a Gnomish suit of armor be able to have less SDC/weight added to it before becoming too heavy, too stiff to move in or otherwise nonviable as a suit of armor? (remember the old addage from CoCW; You can only make armor so thick before you just can't move defensively enough) Conversely, could a giant sized suit of armor be able to "get more bulked up" using the same method. If so, how much more or less? Same modifier? different modifier? Or am I just rambling on too much