Subduing an Opponent

[Severus Snape]

One of the things that I've been asked about is doing damage without doing damage. In other words, is it possible to do temporary damage to an opponent in an attempt to overpower them instead of kill them. I know that other games sytems (AD&D 2nd Edition, specifically) addressed this issue and gave PCs the option to subdue an opponent.

Recently, someone also asked me about pulling punches and what the effect of that really was. The question, simply put, was "What is the point of pulling your punch if you are still doing some real damage to your opponent". I thought long and hard on this, and the person who asked was quite right. Why pull a punch if the resulting damage - even if it's 1 point - could still be enough to kill someone? And after thinking on it for a bit, I think I've come up with a solution.

In the event a PC does not want to kill an opponent, they have the option to subdue. Subduing an opponent is, simply put, overpowering them to the point where they can long function properly but are still alive. In game terms, this means the opponent has taken a sufficient amount of temporary damage and has been knocked out. But how does it work, you ask? Simple.

In order to subdue your opponent, you must state the intention to subdue. You must then provide a strike roll (which must succeed), as well as a Pull Punch roll. Per the book, the target number for the Pull Punch is an 11, not including bonuses and/or penalties. If you succeed with your strike roll AND the pulled punch, the resulting damage is done only to SDC, and is not permanent damage. If you succeed with the strike roll but fail with the pulled punch, the resulting damage done is to SDC and/or HP, and the damage is permanent. Example of each:

1. PC 1 is attacking Enemy 1, and rolls a 15 to strike. PC1 wanted to subdue Enemy 1, so PC 1 rolls for Pull Punch, and the resulting roll (after bonuses) is a 13. Enemy 1 takes whatever damage is to be inflicted as subdual damage, meaning their SDC can drop but their HP cannot, and the damage is only temporary.

2. PC 2 is attacking Enemy 1, and rolls a 15 to strike. PC2 also wanted to subdue Enemy 1, but on the resulting Pull Punch roll PC2 rolls an 8. Enemy 1 takes this damage to SDC and/or HP (depending on how many SDC he had remaining), and the damage is permanent.

If the damage being done is subdual damage AND a strike takes an opponent to zero or less SDC, the opponent is knocked out. The damage is only temporary, and the opponent will become conscious in 1D6 minutes and will have 1D10 SDC to their name. The remaining SDC damage will heal 3 times faster than normal as it is only temporary (think of it as bruises on the body).

Furthermore, once an opponent takes damage to hit points, whether direct or through a normal attack, you can no longer attempt to subdue that opponent.

It should be noted that you can only try to subdue an opponent with your fists, feet, or blunt objects. You cannot shoot someone with a pistol or a laser blast or set them on fire and try to subdue them. You could pick someone up and body slam them, or throw them into a wall, but you cannot throw someone from a great height or run them over with a car.

It should also be noted that if you roll a natural 20 to strike and the pulled punch succeeds, you do NOT need to include the d100 roll as you are not attempting to inflict maximum damage.

So, for clarification:

1. Declare the intent to subdue.
2. Roll to strike and roll pull punch.
3. If both succeed, the punch is pulled and the damage is temporary.
4. If the pulled punch fails, the damage is permanent.
5. Once someone takes a subdual shot that brings them to 0 or less SDC they are unconscious for 1D6 minutes.

I wanted to post this to see if anyone has an ideas or comments on this?

[Mercdog]

Subduing opponents in PB is more than just inflicting enough damage to put them down though. It's declaring Knock-Outs, Pins, Paralyzing Attacks, etc. The rules for which do, admittedly, need some work. As they stand now, you typically must declare your intention to do so, and roll a Natural High Number (Usually a N20), though most people I know will allow strike bonuses to be used to reach the target number.

As far as Pull Punch, I'd have to check to be sure, but I'm fairly certain you can reduce that to No Damage, not just down to 1 point. But the Pull Punch can also be necessary in the instances of avoiding the dreaded Automatic Knock-Out and Automatic Death Blow. After all, the last thing you want to do is kill your buddy while sparring.

So, let's say you want to take a guy out, but inflict as little damage as possible. You declare your intention to use the Knock-Out. Now, you roll to strike but fail to get the KO. Roll Damage, and get a 10. Now roll Pull Punch to reduce or negate damage. You can try another KO with your next attack.

Or, your sparring against a buddy. You roll a N20, Automatic Knock Out/Deathblow. For this, your Pull Punch is pretty essential. If your roll fails, it's possible you'll have just knocked your pal senseless, or worse, put your friends nose into his brain.

Just one last thought. A lot of GMs tend to forget, the player's opponents can surrender anytime you want them to say "I give." Heck, if you're player's character is really bad ass, he could possibly just stare that security guard down into handcuffing himself to the fence and tossing the key without beating him into submission.

Just my 2 bits.

[Nightmask]

Subduing opponents in PB is more than just inflicting enough damage to put them down though. It's declaring Knock-Outs, Pins, Paralyzing Attacks, etc. The rules for which do, admittedly, need some work. As they stand now, you typically must declare your intention to do so, and roll a Natural High Number (Usually a N20), though most people I know will allow strike bonuses to be used to reach the target number.

As far as Pull Punch, I'd have to check to be sure, but I'm fairly certain you can reduce that to No Damage, not just down to 1 point. But the Pull Punch can also be necessary in the instances of avoiding the dreaded Automatic Knock-Out and Automatic Death Blow. After all, the last thing you want to do is kill your buddy while sparring.

So, let's say you want to take a guy out, but inflict as little damage as possible. You declare your intention to use the Knock-Out. Now, you roll to strike but fail to get the KO. Roll Damage, and get a 10. Now roll Pull Punch to reduce or negate damage. You can try another KO with your next attack.

Or, your sparring against a buddy. You roll a N20, Automatic Knock Out/Deathblow. For this, your Pull Punch is pretty essential. If your roll fails, it's possible you'll have just knocked your pal senseless, or worse, put your friends nose into his brain.

Just one last thought. A lot of GMs tend to forget, the player's opponents can surrender anytime you want them to say "I give." Heck, if you're player's character is really bad ass, he could possibly just stare that security guard down into handcuffing himself to the fence and tossing the key without beating him into submission.

Just my 2 bits.

There was an actual example given in one of the books of a player deciding he was going to knock-out someone they had prisoner but he couldn't make the roll and was basically beating this defenseless security guard to death. The other PC had to stop him as the player (and the PC) weren't catching on that he was killing the guy. Definitely not a maneuver to rely on in Palladium as the rules currently stand.

[Mercdog]

Subduing opponents in PB is more than just inflicting enough damage to put them down though. It's declaring Knock-Outs, Pins, Paralyzing Attacks, etc. The rules for which do, admittedly, need some work. As they stand now, you typically must declare your intention to do so, and roll a Natural High Number (Usually a N20), though most people I know will allow strike bonuses to be used to reach the target number.

As far as Pull Punch, I'd have to check to be sure, but I'm fairly certain you can reduce that to No Damage, not just down to 1 point. But the Pull Punch can also be necessary in the instances of avoiding the dreaded Automatic Knock-Out and Automatic Death Blow. After all, the last thing you want to do is kill your buddy while sparring.

So, let's say you want to take a guy out, but inflict as little damage as possible. You declare your intention to use the Knock-Out. Now, you roll to strike but fail to get the KO. Roll Damage, and get a 10. Now roll Pull Punch to reduce or negate damage. You can try another KO with your next attack.

Or, your sparring against a buddy. You roll a N20, Automatic Knock Out/Deathblow. For this, your Pull Punch is pretty essential. If your roll fails, it's possible you'll have just knocked your pal senseless, or worse, put your friends nose into his brain.

Just one last thought. A lot of GMs tend to forget, the player's opponents can surrender anytime you want them to say "I give." Heck, if you're player's character is really bad ass, he could possibly just stare that security guard down into handcuffing himself to the fence and tossing the key without beating him into submission.

Just my 2 bits.

There was an actual example given in one of the books of a player deciding he was going to knock-out someone they had prisoner but he couldn't make the roll and was basically beating this defenseless security guard to death. The other PC had to stop him as the player (and the PC) weren't catching on that he was killing the guy. Definitely not a maneuver to rely on in Palladium as the rules currently stand.

Yeah, IIRC it's in the HU2 book.

[LeeNapier]

Yeah, in my experience, pull punch by itself does nothing but prolong combat.

[wolfsgrin]

I like to throw in save vs pain when lots of damage is inflicted especially if large amounts were sustained by one attack.The target roll can range from 12 - 20 with PE bonuses. Most of my villains go down after all or most of their SDC is gone. And if my hero has stated that he is not going for a kill I treat high rolls, regardless of crit/death blows, in the favor of the PC trying not to kill. Now if they get reckless and start calling shots to lethal areas and have then the kid gloves are off and the hero could be responsible for the death of another being.

[csyphrett]

There was an actual example given in one of the books of a player deciding he was going to knock-out someone they had prisoner but he couldn't make the roll and was basically beating this defenseless security guard to death. The other PC had to stop him as the player (and the PC) weren't catching on that he was killing the guy. Definitely not a maneuver to rely on in Palladium as the rules currently stand.

Which is dumb because if you inflict enough damage the target is automatically knocked out according to the combat rules.
CES

[Incriptus]

I let people "give up conciousness".

Essentially most mooks will choose to go unconcious when they enter HP [assuming they don't surrender earlier that that]. Most Villians/Heroes will only slip into unconsiousness when they choose to, I never push the issue.

"but wait if I get KO'ed they'll just kill me".
"It's a possibility, but if you force them to drop you into negative HP they'll definetly kill you".