What is missing from BTS 2nd edition?

[Soldier of Od]

Hi all,

I've had the original edition of Beyond the Supernatural for decades, but was considering purchasing the updated one. For no particular reason I happened to look up Palladium Books on Wikipedia the other day and it describe BTS as 'incomplete', with some sourcebooks 'unlikely to eventuate'. How complete/incomplete is the new edition exactly? What does it stop me from doing? (for comparison I'm thinking of the fact that the PFRPG by itself does not enable you to play warlocks, summoners, priests and witches properly, because elementals, gods etc. do not appear until the Dragons & Gods book - are there any similar problems in the BTS 2nd edition?)

Thanks.

[Hendrik]

Hi all,

I've had the original edition of Beyond the Supernatural for decades, but was considering purchasing the updated one. For no particular reason I happened to look up Palladium Books on Wikipedia the other day and it describe BTS as 'incomplete', with some sourcebooks 'unlikely to eventuate'. How complete/incomplete is the new edition exactly? What does it stop me from doing? (for comparison I'm thinking of the fact that the PFRPG by itself does not enable you to play warlocks, summoners, priests and witches properly, because elementals, gods etc. do not appear until the Dragons & Gods book - are there any similar problems in the BTS 2nd edition?)

Thanks.

Hi there, Ian,

in short: yes and no.

IS IT COMPLETE?
You can play well as it is. The missing parts are *sob*, well, really missing but not really necessary for the game. Arcanist and spells are a nice addition to the game but not instrumental for the BtS flair (you have all the other - brilliant - OCCs and psionics).

WHAT DO YOU MISS, UNLESS YOU INVEST A LITTLE TRANSFER WORK FROM 1st EDITION
You miss out on monsters, spells and men-of-magic unless you make those yourself or transfer 1st ed. material to 2nd ed.

Two other books were/have been/are planned, to wit:

1. Tome Grotsque (monsters' book) and
2. Beyond Arcanum (magic, spells, men-of-magic OCCs, notably the Arcanist you will know, maybe more on the occult ...).

BtS-II can certainly be played without these two books. Personally and naturally, I would love to see both but the monster book is not sooo necessary, one can do the monsters DIY easy, especially if you have the 1st ed. books. Spells are also not a problem when you have BtS-I at hand, basically just copying work, and the Arcanist can also be taken from the old edition, but you know the kind of work involved in transferring from 1st ed. Pally to 2nd ed. Pally - possible, sure, but a wee bit grueling I find.

GAP FILLING BY OCC ADOPTION/CONVERSION FROM OTHER PALLY-SYSTEMS
As you will find here in the BtS threads, a lot of discussion has been going on how to fix that gap in 2nd ed. I think an excellent idea for a "quick and not too dirty" class conversion is to use some of the Nightbane mages. This thread was opened by me "BtS: Arcanist; does someone have a 2nd ed. update?" and may help (and, should you ask, no, alas, I have not gotten round to make the Arcanist conversion yet ) - there are several excellent ideas on which OCCs from other systems can be used.

Come to think of it ... now that you have mentioned it ... Witch and Summoner would make excellent NPC classes. Regarding spells you could probably simply adopt some of the PFRPG spells as the quickest method.

Kindest regards
Hendrik

[Cybermancer]

The missing material SHOULD have been in the core book or finished and ready to go when the core book was published. Yes you can improvise and gap fill the missing material but you should NOT have to.

The 1st edition book is far superior compared to what has been published for 2nd edition.

Agreed.

[Hendrik]

The missing material SHOULD have been in the core book or finished and ready to go when the core book was published. Yes you can improvise and gap fill the missing material but you should NOT have to.

You are right, Josh & Cybermancer, of course, it should have been either in BtS-II or ready to go soon-ish after publication. Alas, it was not. The good Soldier of Od's questions, though, were more directed at the material and actual identification of any gaps in the book as regards play with 2nd ed. than in general to state (if rightly) that the missing parts should have been in it, weren't they?

Improvising to some extent, bad as that may be as it should not be needed on the aspects in question here, is not actually terribly much to do. Also, what is missing, is not something you really "need" to play IMO. Transferring/converting/improvising is the only option I see at the moment to supply the magic-part ... I see 1st ed. as a supplement ...

The 1st edition book is far superior compared to what has been published for 2nd edition.

Hmm, well, I would not see that as dramatical as it seems to me you do ("far superior"). The only part that is really lacking (monsters are not so important to me and there weren't many in 1st ed.) is the magic section. That is bad. The occult is important for a horror game. No doubt. But not having it is not far inferior compared to having it. The rules in 2nd ed. are, where not the same, IMVHO rounder/current-megaversial and you have everything else. I would also like to add that psionics actually ARE magic.

Anyway, I wanted to say this because I found that your post sounded more negative than the 2nd ed. book (not the publishing history) really deserves and offer and underline my more "mellow" take. That said, I agree with your critique that the missing material needs to be published soon!

The setting and game is far, far, far too good (and IMO "superior" to any other horror game I know) not to publish the missing parts and I am sad for not having seen the two (or more...) books published whatever the reasons are.

Kind regards
Hendrik

[Natasha]

BtS-2 has several monsters in it. The lack of a magic is the single worst thing about trying to play BtS-2 without doing a lot of the work yourself. I do not care for some of the other changes but meh.

The reasons are simple why no new books. The game doesn't sell. Perhaps they could serialise it in Rifters or something though.

[Hibik]

I think, had PB actually followed up and released the promised supplements, nobody would be complaining. As it stands though, there is a certain expectation that BtS2 should be standalone, which, for the aforementioned reasons, it falls short. Most of us can get by, of course - from my perspective, Through the Glass Darkly and its content was practically written for BtS.

Don't get me wrong. I actually love BtS2, There are a lot of things they just really should have included in that book though. Besides magic, maybe more specific examples of firearms, possibly an updated list of equipment and technology.

[Hendrik]

The reasons are simple why no new books. The game doesn't sell. Perhaps they could serialise it in Rifters or something though.

The Rifter is an ideal remedy. Alternatively, print a revised 2nd edition with a magic part...

Although, I cannot believe in bad sales - not because of the product, in any case. It is the downright best horror RPG there is - as I said elsewhere, so sorry for the repeat, I think it is versatile, adaptable to everything horror and has unique, even brilliant OCCs. I am such a fan of that game because I have yet to find any other RPG where I immediately have a couple of ideas for every single OCC and actually want to play every character class.

Cheers
Hendrik

[Soldier of Od]

Hi Hendrik,

Thanks for your response (you are a posting Titan at the moment - how do you find time to make so many detailed and compehensive responses?! You must not have enough work to do!)
And thanks also to everyone else.

So, there are some creatures in the new edition? Are they updates of the original ones, a selection of the original ones or any new? So the main omission is no magic. I see.I would have thought that the differences between the two editions can't be that bad, after all it already had P.P.E. and S.D.C. etc., so it's not like the difference between PFRPG 1st and 2nd edition.

I think I'll have to pick it up, if only for the extra detail on the setting - the only thing I think that was a bit lacking from the original. Tell Palladium they're selling a BTS book this week! Woo hoo!



...and then I'll write up a BTS version of the summoner! ...

[mrloucifer]

Technically this post has been resolved for Od's needs, but a few side bits were brought up that I think I need to point out:

Hendrik is correct in that BTS-2 coursebooks haven't showed up yet due to bad sales. The first version was a big hit and laid the foundation that Rifts was built upon (per a discussion I had with Kevin which confirmed that suspicion).

I've posted notes about this in the past, and it seems time for a refresher. Its not about bad sales, BTS does sell and will sell even better once the others books are written to support it. However, the volume of sales between a BTS book vs. a Rifts book is drastically different, far favoring the fan favorite Rifts series. The company is still too far on shaky ground (and backlogged) to stop producing Rifts, Dead Reign and Robotech and other series that are selling so well as of late.

The other issue is how time consuming it really is to write a BTS book. I have personal experience on this matter and I understand Kevin's position on this point of view all too well. The amount of research that goes into writing a BTS book alone can go into months easy. I don't expect that the average reader really comprehends how much leg work was involved in finding credible and accessible documentation concerning the "Places of power" section of the first BTS book alone. Even with a lot of these materials on hand (courtesy of Alex's extensive paranormal library) the leg work and researching of that of Randy McCall's, Erick Wujcik's and Kevin to write the first edition was months in the making.

The next aspect is the writing of a subtle supernatural horror itself. BTS has a very unique "voice"; something akin to a scientist and parapsychologist merging with a spiritualist and anthropologist. As a writer of BTS material and being a lifelong paranormal enthusiast with a small library of paranormal studies and books (and a co-creator and former manager of ghost hunting/ paranormal activities group), I feel I have the credibility to say that writing for BTS is a very time consuming and laborious process. Kevin told me up front during one of our conversations that he anticipated that even with all the art in hand (which I've seen and its all amazing) and a lot of notes available to him already, he's looking at 6-9 months to write the next BTS source books (which needs to be done simultaneously). I can understand this being the case as its taken me literal years thus far of "working where I can" on two BTS source books of my own (the "Ghosts" and "Victims" source books with plans for more afterwards).

Now to put that into the right perspective, Kevin could spend that 6-8 months getting one or two BTS book out at the end of those months to eager fans and would get good sales minimum, or he can release 3-4 books in that same amount of time, all of which will get good to great sales numbers. If you were in charge of a company still recovering from a series of harsh setbacks that keep threatening to put you out of business, which option would you choose?

While I'm at this, another annoying bit that keeps coming is people thinking that Kevin has no plans to continue writing the BTS series. I'm here to tell you that this is simply not true. Kevin LOVES the BTS series. He put a lot of money into the 2nd edition books a long time ago (research materials and art for the upcoming books are already in his pocket). He still makes plans to keep producing BTS books, in fact I have a phone meeting scheduled with him this coming week concerning the books I'm working on (it keeps getting pushed back as he's dealing with getting the new site up and running properly, but he wouldn't keep rescheduling our meeting and waste his precious time if he wasn't interested in keeping BTS going).

In summary, keep the faith. I'm just as frustrated as anyone that my favorite game products keep getting postponed. I want them bad as well (I think part of my urge to write the source books and Rifter articles that I do is that I want BTS material so badly that I'm willing to create it myself if I have to). But we have to be patient as and give Palladium more time.

P.S. I would never want to see bits and pieces of BTS show up in the Rifter. If that happened to where even 40% of the source books showed up in various Rifters, it would affect the sales of the book as potentially less BTS fan fanatic buyers would assume they have the important pieces of the book already.

Ok, I'm off the soapbox now. Play on gang... play on!

[Todd Yoho]

Kevin has said on multiple occasions that he won't let anyone else write those two books, so until Kevin stops trying to be superman and do everything himself we will not see those books. It really upsets me because BtS if my favorite game line.

It amuses me to no end that the catalog entry still lists me as co-author on Arcanum when I KNOW that none of the writing I did for it back in 2004/2005 will ever see print.

[Soldier of Od]

I got it!

Um... there's no equipment...

[Sir Neil]

And yet the same quarter-page long list of equipment is duplicated after every class. One of the mysteries of life.

[Soldier of Od]

And yet the same quarter-page long list of equipment is duplicated after every class. One of the mysteries of life.

I know! Okay, it is easy to criticise (fun, too! ) but isn't it blindingly obvious that there should have been a 'standard list of equipment/housing etc. for all characters' and then an 'Equipment: standard list plus/minus the following...' for each P.C.C.? Oh well, I guess it doesn't matter too much, but I wonder what they could have fitted on those extra three or four pages?!

I'm not too sure about this I.S.P. multiplier thing. I'm guessing it's intention is that you cannot use much in the way of psionics under ordinary circumstances, thus limiting how much you can do to 'show off' or 'prove' that psionics exist (i.e. "wow, you made that cup move, live on TV - do it again!", "Um, I can't.", "Bah, it's just a trick, get off, boo" and so forth), thus helping to keep psionics unknown to the world (which seems to be the overriding theme behind the book, given the amount of space given over to repeating the reasons no-one knows stuff is real.). But still, I'm not keen on the idea at the moment - I guess i'll have to see how it plays out.

[Hendrik]

And yet the same quarter-page long list of equipment is duplicated after every class. One of the mysteries of life.

I know! Okay, it is easy to criticise (fun, too! ) but isn't it blindingly obvious that there should have been a 'standard list of equipment/housing etc. for all characters' and then an 'Equipment: standard list plus/minus the following...' for each P.C.C.? Oh well, I guess it doesn't matter too much, but I wonder what they could have fitted on those extra three or four pages?!

I'm not too sure about this I.S.P. multiplier thing. I'm guessing it's intention is that you cannot use much in the way of psionics under ordinary circumstances, thus limiting how much you can do to 'show off' or 'prove' that psionics exist (i.e. "wow, you made that cup move, live on TV - do it again!", "Um, I can't.", "Bah, it's just a trick, get off, boo" and so forth), thus helping to keep psionics unknown to the world (which seems to be the overriding theme behind the book, given the amount of space given over to repeating the reasons no-one knows stuff is real.). But still, I'm not keen on the idea at the moment - I guess i'll have to see how it plays out.

Let's see how it plays out, indeed.

Until practice proves the opposite, I have always found the rule extremely elegant. It is simple and conveys directly two things. One, what you said, Ian - the supernatural is elusive, supernatural powers are not "easy" to use, let alone show, as for example spells in a fantasy setting. Two, by putting effectiveness/strength of the powers fighting the supernatural in stages getting more power can be (a) a warning, (b) is frightful because it means something IS NOT RIGHT and (c) allows for hypercharging the PCs to fight really daunting enemies without having superpowered PCs every other day. Nifty, all of that!

Kindest regards
Hendrik

[Xar]

And yet the same quarter-page long list of equipment is duplicated after every class. One of the mysteries of life.

I know! Okay, it is easy to criticise (fun, too! ) but isn't it blindingly obvious that there should have been a 'standard list of equipment/housing etc. for all characters' and then an 'Equipment: standard list plus/minus the following...' for each P.C.C.? Oh well, I guess it doesn't matter too much, but I wonder what they could have fitted on those extra three or four pages?!

I'm not too sure about this I.S.P. multiplier thing. I'm guessing it's intention is that you cannot use much in the way of psionics under ordinary circumstances, thus limiting how much you can do to 'show off' or 'prove' that psionics exist (i.e. "wow, you made that cup move, live on TV - do it again!", "Um, I can't.", "Bah, it's just a trick, get off, boo" and so forth), thus helping to keep psionics unknown to the world (which seems to be the overriding theme behind the book, given the amount of space given over to repeating the reasons no-one knows stuff is real.). But still, I'm not keen on the idea at the moment - I guess i'll have to see how it plays out.

Let's see how it plays out, indeed.

Until practice proves the opposite, I have always found the rule extremely elegant. It is simple and conveys directly two things. One, what you said, Ian - the supernatural is elusive, supernatural powers are not "easy" to use, let alone show, as for example spells in a fantasy setting. Two, by putting effectiveness/strength of the powers fighting the supernatural in stages getting more power can be (a) a warning, (b) is frightful because it means something IS NOT RIGHT and (c) allows for hypercharging the PCs to fight really daunting enemies without having superpowered PCs every other day. Nifty, all of that!

Kindest regards
Hendrik

I like the way it feels thematically, but until we ever get working magic rules with the same mechanic, I'm going to have to ignore the multiplier rule and go back to 1st ed rules. My summer project will be plotting the initial ISP and the level progression of 2nd ed P.C.C.s to fit back into 1st ed. standards.