The realities of the situation

Ley Line walkers, Juicers, Coalition Troops, Samas, Tolkeen, & The Federation Of Magic. Come together here to discuss all things Rifts®.

Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones

Would you join the CS?

I sympathize with the CS and would join them.
14
21%
I sympathize with the CS and would not join them.
10
15%
I do not sympathize with the CS and would join them .
21
31%
I do not sympathize with the CS and would not join them.
23
34%
 
Total votes: 68

User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 27983
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Nightmask wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:yup just surround yourself with demons and blame the enemy about the choices you made


You're really arguing just to argue aren't you? Since by your contentions the US was the evil aggressor in WWII when it went after Japan for its unprovoked and unwarranted attack on Pearl Harbor which is ridiculous to think. I might enjoy a good dialogue/argument but at least I don't back the obviously wrong side just to have said argument.


I'm pretty sure that the US didn't summon demons.
(Though you could make a parallel to us nuking them, that decision is still controversial.)

There isn't a problem with Tolkeen fighting back, but there is a problem with how they ultimately decided to do it.
(insert random Nietze quote about monsters and the abyss, yadda, yadda, yadda)
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
cornholioprime
Palladin
Posts: 7684
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 1:05 am
Comment: At long last....I am FINALLY free of my wonderful addiction to the online Flash game "Bloons."
Well, mostly.....
Location: In the Hivelands with General Jericho Holmes, taking advantage of suddenly stupid Xiticix...

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by cornholioprime »

Nightmask wrote:
cornholioprime wrote:
Nightmask, referring to Mech-Viper's various responses, wrote:You're really arguing just to argue aren't you?
Heh.

Told ya!!


:D ;) :D


That you did. While I didn't care for the conclusion of the Tolkeen arc I at least can tell which side is obviously evil and which was obviously good and the victim. From a marketing standpoint having the CS go after the Federation of Magic doesn't work because you'd effectively have evil vs evil and whichever side the PC supports they're compromising themselves backing evil. So you go with an obvious good guy victim and because it's war you show the possible moral decay that can happen as desperation against an implacable enemy only concerned with your death sets in.
THAT part of the whole Siege On Tolkeen, I really liked.

It made Tolkeen more realistic that way, and I for one don't expect ANY Nation to remain 100% scrupulous in the face of an attack of an enemy that you can't appease and that you can't defeat any other way (I for one am also rather dim on the writer having Tolkeen rift all of its inhabitants away and essentially appease the CS -giving Evil what it wants instead of fighting it is usually a poor strategy over the long term).

"Hit even Buddha in the face three times and he will become angry." Japanese proverb
Good pick, Saitou -I'd never even heard of this one before.
The Kevinomicon, Book of Siembieda 3:16.

16 Blessed art Thou above all others, O COALITION STATES, beloved of Kevin;

17 For Thou art allowed to do Evil without Limit, nor do thy Enemies retaliate.

18 Thy Military be run by Fools and Dotards.

19 Yet thy Nation suffers not. Praise be unto Him that protects thee from all harm!!
User avatar
Hystrix
Champion
Posts: 1828
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 2:01 am
Location: At work or on my Xbox
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Hystrix »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:yup just surround yourself with demons and blame the enemy about the choices you made


You're really arguing just to argue aren't you? Since by your contentions the US was the evil aggressor in WWII when it went after Japan for its unprovoked and unwarranted attack on Pearl Harbor which is ridiculous to think. I might enjoy a good dialogue/argument but at least I don't back the obviously wrong side just to have said argument.


I'm pretty sure that the US didn't summon demons.
(Though you could make a parallel to us nuking them, that decision is still controversial.)

There isn't a problem with Tolkeen fighting back, but there is a problem with how they ultimately decided to do it.
(insert random Nietze quote about monsters and the abyss, yadda, yadda, yadda)


Agreed.

I'd never say the CS were good guys. However, I have a hard time putting the "good guy" lable on demon summoners regardless if they were provoked or not. Tolkeen had a choice. Heck even Lazlo, who should have be Tolkeen's closest ally chose not to back Tolkeen becAuse of thier actions.

I can see Lazlo being protayed as good. I cannot see Tolkeen being protayed that way. They were not. Look at the Circle of Twelve. Some of them were strait up evil. Even without CS provocation. Just sayin...
Hystrix, the Post Killer, Destroyer of Threads
User avatar
Nightmask
Palladin
Posts: 9268
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Nightmask »

cornholioprime wrote:
Nightmask wrote:That you did. While I didn't care for the conclusion of the Tolkeen arc I at least can tell which side is obviously evil and which was obviously good and the victim. From a marketing standpoint having the CS go after the Federation of Magic doesn't work because you'd effectively have evil vs evil and whichever side the PC supports they're compromising themselves backing evil. So you go with an obvious good guy victim and because it's war you show the possible moral decay that can happen as desperation against an implacable enemy only concerned with your death sets in.
THAT part of the whole Siege On Tolkeen, I really liked.

It made Tolkeen more realistic that way, and I for one don't expect ANY Nation to remain 100% scrupulous in the face of an attack of an enemy that you can't appease and that you can't defeat any other way (I for one am also rather dim on the writer having Tolkeen rift all of its inhabitants away and essentially appease the CS -giving Evil what it wants instead of fighting it is usually a poor strategy over the long term).


The allies in WWII allowed some of the devastation that occurred because preventing it would have cost them a tactical advantage. When they broke the unbreakable encryption for the Germans they learned of a city that was going to be hit and allowed it to happen without even attempting to warn or evacuate anyone because if they did the Germans would have realized the code was broken and find another. The information available that way was deemed just too important and long term would save more lives than saving that city would have. And that was against an opponent that wasn't out for genocide (at least for their victim countries), seeking to reduce the standing population to zero but one looking just to conquer.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
User avatar
Nightmask
Palladin
Posts: 9268
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Nightmask »

Hystrix wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:yup just surround yourself with demons and blame the enemy about the choices you made


You're really arguing just to argue aren't you? Since by your contentions the US was the evil aggressor in WWII when it went after Japan for its unprovoked and unwarranted attack on Pearl Harbor which is ridiculous to think. I might enjoy a good dialogue/argument but at least I don't back the obviously wrong side just to have said argument.


I'm pretty sure that the US didn't summon demons.
(Though you could make a parallel to us nuking them, that decision is still controversial.)

There isn't a problem with Tolkeen fighting back, but there is a problem with how they ultimately decided to do it.
(insert random Nietze quote about monsters and the abyss, yadda, yadda, yadda)


Agreed.

I'd never say the CS were good guys. However, I have a hard time putting the "good guy" lable on demon summoners regardless if they were provoked or not. Tolkeen had a choice. Heck even Lazlo, who should have be Tolkeen's closest ally chose not to back Tolkeen becAuse of thier actions.

I can see Lazlo being protayed as good. I cannot see Tolkeen being protayed that way. They were not. Look at the Circle of Twelve. Some of them were strait up evil. Even without CS provocation. Just sayin...


Tolkeen was the good guy, all that demon summoning came down the line when survival (and for some a desire for retribution over lost loved ones) became the paramount concern. Doesn't matter in that regard that they eventually shifted in alignment and moral stance from the Scrupulous end down to Miscreant (on average), that's a product of the war and not who they were in the beginning. Also it doesn't matter if some of the leading council were evil as long as they were still acting in accord with Tolkeen's ideals going in (and they obviously were or otherwise they wouldn't have been on the council).

Unlike the older depictions of evil like in AD&D evil isn't always going around doing evil just to be evil (in most cases), it will engage in good acts if they benefit the evil person short term or long term. But as the CS's genocidal assault continued and the death toll mounted those members were right in there pointing out how pretty ideals weren't going to protect anyone at that point or keep the bodies from piling up and eventually the others agreed. So as has been noted they fought monsters and eventually many did become as monstrous as those they fought but they weren't monsters to begin with they were given terrible choices and when that moment of the coin toss came the coin came up 'evil' rather than 'good'.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
User avatar
Vrykolas2k
Champion
Posts: 3175
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 8:58 pm
Location: A snow-covered forest, littered with the bones of my slain enemies...
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Vrykolas2k »

Dunia wrote:
Lenwen wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:its the coalition's fault or its Tolkeen , for tolkeen falling to the level were they fell

Tolkeen never fell anywhere ..

Tolkeen was pushed to where they went .. thats not even debatable ..


They could have open teleportation circles/rifts and whisked away their entire population and stuff instead of going evil.
I think that the king was bad all along and it was he who was the reason that they went as far as they did.

I think it is good that Tolkeen fell, it makes the world more alive and interesting. but I rather have had Lazlo fell. That would had been legend...wait for it....dary. But I will settle for Tolkeen




Ya.
In some peoples' mind its better to run away than fight.
Then they find themselves backed into a corner with an enemy that's even stronger, with nowhere left to go.
I don't see things that way.
I believe in fighting, even if I lose, and bleeding the enemy as much as possible.
I also don't believe in just giving up my home and everything I've worked for.
Eyes without life, maggot-ridden corpses, mountains of skulls... these are a few of my favourite things.

I am the first angel, loved once above all others...

Light a man a fire, and he's warm for a day; light a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Turning the other cheek just gets you slapped harder.

The Smiling Bandit (Strikes Again!! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!)
User avatar
Mech-Viper Prime
Palladin
Posts: 6831
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:49 pm
Comment: Full of Love and C-4, give me a hug.
Location: Dinosaur swamplands
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

Nightmask wrote:You're really arguing just to argue aren't you? Since by your contentions the US was the evil aggressor in WWII when it went after Japan for its unprovoked and unwarranted attack on Pearl Harbor which is ridiculous to think. I might enjoy a good dialogue/argument but at least I don't back the obviously wrong side just to have said argument.

all i have said is tolkeen are responsible for their acts,they summon the demon, they made the pacts, CS didnt force them to do it, they could have fought a long war as defensive and got more people to safety then they did, but by tolkeen sinking to that level, proved the coalition's point about mages and d-bees , now the tolkeen area is crawling with demons, and all the coalition has to do is "see what the fools of tolkeen did!"the Tolkeen Now you have the Cyber knight who the coalition wouldnt normally mess with , well that too has went south , during and after counterstrike the cyber knight wionder why didnt we listern to Coake and what did we get selves into.
Ravenwing wrote:"Killing Dbee's isn't murder, they aren't human, it's pest control!"

Zardoz wrote:You have been raised up from Brutality, to kill the Brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Zardoz your God gave you the gift of the Gun. The Gun is good!
User avatar
TechnoGothic
Knight
Posts: 5179
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Near Tampa Florida

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by TechnoGothic »

Honestly the whole SOT story should have ended with TOLKEEN winning the War, forcing the CS to retreat for good at least.

Then the World having to deal with what TOLKEEN really had become to win the war.
As a Magic Nation which defeated or repelled the CS would have been Major news.

This defeat might have had a few changes on the CS over the long-term also. With the CS experimenting with Magics again to support their troops, seeing how it deafeated them, that they need to broaden their resources. Which would make the VANGUARD cooler overall, as Secret CS magic users.

Tolkeen winning would have been more fun for the setting.
TechnoGothic
END OF LINE

Image

"The best things in life are to crush your enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentations of their women."-Conan
User avatar
Vrykolas2k
Champion
Posts: 3175
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 8:58 pm
Location: A snow-covered forest, littered with the bones of my slain enemies...
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Vrykolas2k »

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Nightmask wrote:You're really arguing just to argue aren't you? Since by your contentions the US was the evil aggressor in WWII when it went after Japan for its unprovoked and unwarranted attack on Pearl Harbor which is ridiculous to think. I might enjoy a good dialogue/argument but at least I don't back the obviously wrong side just to have said argument.

all i have said is tolkeen are responsible for their acts,they summon the demon, they made the pacts, CS didnt force them to do it, they could have fought a long war as defensive and got more people to safety then they did, but by tolkeen sinking to that level, proved the coalition's point about mages and d-bees , now the tolkeen area is crawling with demons, and all the coalition has to do is "see what the fools of tolkeen did!"the Tolkeen Now you have the Cyber knight who the coalition wouldnt normally mess with , well that too has went south , during and after counterstrike the cyber knight wionder why didnt we listern to Coake and what did we get selves into.




You're kind of right.
BUT.
If a bunch of thugs from the gang known as the CS military showed up at my home, raped my sister and killed my family, I'd want revenge.
And if summoning demons was within my power to gain revenge, I'd do just that.
And since said thugs would be the invader, they'd not only have it coming, in essence they'd have also forced my hand.
Eyes without life, maggot-ridden corpses, mountains of skulls... these are a few of my favourite things.

I am the first angel, loved once above all others...

Light a man a fire, and he's warm for a day; light a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Turning the other cheek just gets you slapped harder.

The Smiling Bandit (Strikes Again!! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!)
User avatar
Mech-Viper Prime
Palladin
Posts: 6831
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:49 pm
Comment: Full of Love and C-4, give me a hug.
Location: Dinosaur swamplands
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

Nightmask wrote:Tolkeen was the good guy, all that demon summoning came down the line when survival (and for some a desire for retribution over lost loved ones) became the paramount concern. Doesn't matter in that regard that they eventually shifted in alignment and moral stance from the Scrupulous end down to Miscreant (on average), that's a product of the war and not who they were in the beginning. Also it doesn't matter if some of the leading council were evil as long as they were still acting in accord with Tolkeen's ideals going in (and they obviously were or otherwise they wouldn't have been on the council).

Unlike the older depictions of evil like in AD&D evil isn't always going around doing evil just to be evil (in most cases), it will engage in good acts if they benefit the evil person short term or long term. But as the CS's genocidal assault continued and the death toll mounted those members were right in there pointing out how pretty ideals weren't going to protect anyone at that point or keep the bodies from piling up and eventually the others agreed. So as has been noted they fought monsters and eventually many did become as monstrous as those they fought but they weren't monsters to begin with they were given terrible choices and when that moment of the coin toss came the coin came up 'evil' rather than 'good'.

well if you going throw you pretty ideals out the windows and start fighting the coalition on its level , then its safe to said you ideals really didnt mean that much to you to began with.
Ravenwing wrote:"Killing Dbee's isn't murder, they aren't human, it's pest control!"

Zardoz wrote:You have been raised up from Brutality, to kill the Brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Zardoz your God gave you the gift of the Gun. The Gun is good!
User avatar
Mech-Viper Prime
Palladin
Posts: 6831
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:49 pm
Comment: Full of Love and C-4, give me a hug.
Location: Dinosaur swamplands
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

Vrykolas2k wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Nightmask wrote:You're really arguing just to argue aren't you? Since by your contentions the US was the evil aggressor in WWII when it went after Japan for its unprovoked and unwarranted attack on Pearl Harbor which is ridiculous to think. I might enjoy a good dialogue/argument but at least I don't back the obviously wrong side just to have said argument.

all i have said is tolkeen are responsible for their acts,they summon the demon, they made the pacts, CS didnt force them to do it, they could have fought a long war as defensive and got more people to safety then they did, but by tolkeen sinking to that level, proved the coalition's point about mages and d-bees , now the tolkeen area is crawling with demons, and all the coalition has to do is "see what the fools of tolkeen did!"the Tolkeen Now you have the Cyber knight who the coalition wouldnt normally mess with , well that too has went south , during and after counterstrike the cyber knight wionder why didnt we listern to Coake and what did we get selves into.




You're kind of right.
BUT.
If a bunch of thugs from the gang known as the CS military showed up at my home, raped my sister and killed my family, I'd want revenge.
And if summoning demons was within my power to gain revenge, I'd do just that.
And since said thugs would be the invader, they'd not only have it coming, in essence they'd have also forced my hand.

but you made the choice of your actions revenge over justice
Ravenwing wrote:"Killing Dbee's isn't murder, they aren't human, it's pest control!"

Zardoz wrote:You have been raised up from Brutality, to kill the Brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Zardoz your God gave you the gift of the Gun. The Gun is good!
User avatar
Vrykolas2k
Champion
Posts: 3175
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 8:58 pm
Location: A snow-covered forest, littered with the bones of my slain enemies...
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Vrykolas2k »

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Nightmask wrote:You're really arguing just to argue aren't you? Since by your contentions the US was the evil aggressor in WWII when it went after Japan for its unprovoked and unwarranted attack on Pearl Harbor which is ridiculous to think. I might enjoy a good dialogue/argument but at least I don't back the obviously wrong side just to have said argument.

all i have said is tolkeen are responsible for their acts,they summon the demon, they made the pacts, CS didnt force them to do it, they could have fought a long war as defensive and got more people to safety then they did, but by tolkeen sinking to that level, proved the coalition's point about mages and d-bees , now the tolkeen area is crawling with demons, and all the coalition has to do is "see what the fools of tolkeen did!"the Tolkeen Now you have the Cyber knight who the coalition wouldnt normally mess with , well that too has went south , during and after counterstrike the cyber knight wionder why didnt we listern to Coake and what did we get selves into.




You're kind of right.
BUT.
If a bunch of thugs from the gang known as the CS military showed up at my home, raped my sister and killed my family, I'd want revenge.
And if summoning demons was within my power to gain revenge, I'd do just that.
And since said thugs would be the invader, they'd not only have it coming, in essence they'd have also forced my hand.

but you made the choice of your actions revenge over justice




What kind of justice aside from revenge could you possibly get?
Ideology rarely works out too well in this sort of situation.
Eyes without life, maggot-ridden corpses, mountains of skulls... these are a few of my favourite things.

I am the first angel, loved once above all others...

Light a man a fire, and he's warm for a day; light a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Turning the other cheek just gets you slapped harder.

The Smiling Bandit (Strikes Again!! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!)
Shark_Force
Palladin
Posts: 7128
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Shark_Force »

TechnoGothic wrote:Honestly the whole SOT story should have ended with TOLKEEN winning the War, forcing the CS to retreat for good at least.

Then the World having to deal with what TOLKEEN really had become to win the war.
As a Magic Nation which defeated or repelled the CS would have been Major news.

This defeat might have had a few changes on the CS over the long-term also. With the CS experimenting with Magics again to support their troops, seeing how it deafeated them, that they need to broaden their resources. Which would make the VANGUARD cooler overall, as Secret CS magic users.

Tolkeen winning would have been more fun for the setting.


hmmm... not sure tolkeen should have outright won the war. i think forcing a stalemate where the CS simply can't gain any more ground would be reasonable, though... certainly, i could see it reaching the point where the CS has effectively lost (by constantly destroying CS supply lines, by tolkeen doing covert strikes against CS production centers, etc. but i don't think the CS would ever admit they lost. they'd still keep outposts there, hide the number of their losses, and keep the propaganda machine running about how they've managed to kill X number of enemies (possibly inflated) and are making progress, blah, blah, blah, even if they're actually sitting in heavily fortified bases and don't dare set foot outside them, and the enemy casualties they inflict are actually nothing more than summoned creatures that cost tolkeen effectively nothing to recruit and send at them in a constant stream.

in fact, i think that's one aspect that got ignored too much... the ability to essentially summon legions of minions to go fight the battle for you means that tolkeen may not have more numbers at any one time, but when you can have a couple of shifters just call up half a dozen gargoyles at a time and send them to attack, then summon more gargoyles and send them to attack, and just keep doing that day in and day out... i mean, seriously, a group of 3 level 5 shifters could summon a fresh squad of gargoyles every day (iirc, something like 6 each, so that'd be 18 gargoyles), teleport them out to the front lines, give them some basic gear (MDC wooden armor, if they want it - again, basically free) and maybe some very basic weapons (fire globes are easily made, can be given to others, and last a long time. talismans, scrolls, and other magical items are also essentially cost-free, and can greatly improve the effectiveness of a group of basic minions; equip them all with a wooden sword strengthened by ironwood and a scroll of spinning blades, or simply a scroll of frost blade...and so forth).

so if you assume that in all of tolkeen, there were... let's say 1,000 level 5 shifters (or that there are 1,000 shifters who collectively can summon on average 6 lesser minions each), you could whip up an army of 6,000 gargoyles (each probably about as tough as a light power armor though not as offensively powerful by any means) as often as they're defeated, equip them with some scrolls and talismans, and send them off to fight for you... something the gargoyles aren't likely to argue about as a mission. and that's not even dipping into summoning with spells! you could support them with hundreds or thousands of tectonic entities (could you imagine being bombarded with hundreds of rocks, then shortly afterward the rocks all form into humanoid shapes and start killing your buddies?), worms of taut, etc, all without costing anything more than PPE, which tolkeen had access to in abundance, and all without putting any of your actual citizens in range of a direct attack by the CS.
User avatar
Nightmask
Palladin
Posts: 9268
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Nightmask »

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Tolkeen was the good guy, all that demon summoning came down the line when survival (and for some a desire for retribution over lost loved ones) became the paramount concern. Doesn't matter in that regard that they eventually shifted in alignment and moral stance from the Scrupulous end down to Miscreant (on average), that's a product of the war and not who they were in the beginning. Also it doesn't matter if some of the leading council were evil as long as they were still acting in accord with Tolkeen's ideals going in (and they obviously were or otherwise they wouldn't have been on the council).

Unlike the older depictions of evil like in AD&D evil isn't always going around doing evil just to be evil (in most cases), it will engage in good acts if they benefit the evil person short term or long term. But as the CS's genocidal assault continued and the death toll mounted those members were right in there pointing out how pretty ideals weren't going to protect anyone at that point or keep the bodies from piling up and eventually the others agreed. So as has been noted they fought monsters and eventually many did become as monstrous as those they fought but they weren't monsters to begin with they were given terrible choices and when that moment of the coin toss came the coin came up 'evil' rather than 'good'.


well if you going throw you pretty ideals out the windows and start fighting the coalition on its level , then its safe to said you ideals really didnt mean that much to you to began with.


No, it's not safe to claim that at all. The Tolkeenites didn't just 'Oh no we got attack quick summon up the demons!', they suffered brutally at the hands of the CS and eventually some decided the cost in lives wasn't worth holding onto those ideals. One has those ideals because they believe that they are the best thing for themselves and their families, friends, and community. After months or years of witnessing atrocity after atrocity visited upon you by monsters you're going to have a difficult time convincing yourself that those ideals are the best thing for any of those. Eventually some if not many will decide the ideals need to be suspended for the duration because they aren't working, just as a military leader doesn't keep using a bad tactic (unless he's an idiot) that is only leading to defeat after defeat. Whether or not they can reclaim those ideals after depends on how far they fell and how much they struggled to walk the line between idealism and practicality.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
User avatar
Mech-Viper Prime
Palladin
Posts: 6831
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:49 pm
Comment: Full of Love and C-4, give me a hug.
Location: Dinosaur swamplands
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

Vrykolas2k wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Nightmask wrote:You're really arguing just to argue aren't you? Since by your contentions the US was the evil aggressor in WWII when it went after Japan for its unprovoked and unwarranted attack on Pearl Harbor which is ridiculous to think. I might enjoy a good dialogue/argument but at least I don't back the obviously wrong side just to have said argument.

all i have said is tolkeen are responsible for their acts,they summon the demon, they made the pacts, CS didnt force them to do it, they could have fought a long war as defensive and got more people to safety then they did, but by tolkeen sinking to that level, proved the coalition's point about mages and d-bees , now the tolkeen area is crawling with demons, and all the coalition has to do is "see what the fools of tolkeen did!"the Tolkeen Now you have the Cyber knight who the coalition wouldnt normally mess with , well that too has went south , during and after counterstrike the cyber knight wionder why didnt we listern to Coake and what did we get selves into.




You're kind of right.
BUT.
If a bunch of thugs from the gang known as the CS military showed up at my home, raped my sister and killed my family, I'd want revenge.
And if summoning demons was within my power to gain revenge, I'd do just that.
And since said thugs would be the invader, they'd not only have it coming, in essence they'd have also forced my hand.

but you made the choice of your actions revenge over justice




What kind of justice aside from revenge could you possibly get?
Ideology rarely works out too well in this sort of situation.
depends on how far you go , do you go after the soldiers who did it , or everyone in a coalition uniform?
Ravenwing wrote:"Killing Dbee's isn't murder, they aren't human, it's pest control!"

Zardoz wrote:You have been raised up from Brutality, to kill the Brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Zardoz your God gave you the gift of the Gun. The Gun is good!
User avatar
Mech-Viper Prime
Palladin
Posts: 6831
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:49 pm
Comment: Full of Love and C-4, give me a hug.
Location: Dinosaur swamplands
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

Nightmask wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Nightmask wrote:Tolkeen was the good guy, all that demon summoning came down the line when survival (and for some a desire for retribution over lost loved ones) became the paramount concern. Doesn't matter in that regard that they eventually shifted in alignment and moral stance from the Scrupulous end down to Miscreant (on average), that's a product of the war and not who they were in the beginning. Also it doesn't matter if some of the leading council were evil as long as they were still acting in accord with Tolkeen's ideals going in (and they obviously were or otherwise they wouldn't have been on the council).

Unlike the older depictions of evil like in AD&D evil isn't always going around doing evil just to be evil (in most cases), it will engage in good acts if they benefit the evil person short term or long term. But as the CS's genocidal assault continued and the death toll mounted those members were right in there pointing out how pretty ideals weren't going to protect anyone at that point or keep the bodies from piling up and eventually the others agreed. So as has been noted they fought monsters and eventually many did become as monstrous as those they fought but they weren't monsters to begin with they were given terrible choices and when that moment of the coin toss came the coin came up 'evil' rather than 'good'.


well if you going throw you pretty ideals out the windows and start fighting the coalition on its level , then its safe to said you ideals really didnt mean that much to you to began with.


No, it's not safe to claim that at all. The Tolkeenites didn't just 'Oh no we got attack quick summon up the demons!', they suffered brutally at the hands of the CS and eventually some decided the cost in lives wasn't worth holding onto those ideals. One has those ideals because they believe that they are the best thing for themselves and their families, friends, and community. After months or years of witnessing atrocity after atrocity visited upon you by monsters you're going to have a difficult time convincing yourself that those ideals are the best thing for any of those. Eventually some if not many will decide the ideals need to be suspended for the duration because they aren't working, just as a military leader doesn't keep using a bad tactic (unless he's an idiot) that is only leading to defeat after defeat. Whether or not they can reclaim those ideals after depends on how far they fell and how much they struggled to walk the line between idealism and practicality.

Then Tolkeen losed alot more then their city.
Ravenwing wrote:"Killing Dbee's isn't murder, they aren't human, it's pest control!"

Zardoz wrote:You have been raised up from Brutality, to kill the Brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Zardoz your God gave you the gift of the Gun. The Gun is good!
User avatar
Nightmask
Palladin
Posts: 9268
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Nightmask »

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Nightmask wrote:No, it's not safe to claim that at all. The Tolkeenites didn't just 'Oh no we got attack quick summon up the demons!', they suffered brutally at the hands of the CS and eventually some decided the cost in lives wasn't worth holding onto those ideals. One has those ideals because they believe that they are the best thing for themselves and their families, friends, and community. After months or years of witnessing atrocity after atrocity visited upon you by monsters you're going to have a difficult time convincing yourself that those ideals are the best thing for any of those. Eventually some if not many will decide the ideals need to be suspended for the duration because they aren't working, just as a military leader doesn't keep using a bad tactic (unless he's an idiot) that is only leading to defeat after defeat. Whether or not they can reclaim those ideals after depends on how far they fell and how much they struggled to walk the line between idealism and practicality.


Then Tolkeen losed alot more then their city.


That I will completely agree with, as they had a lot more to lose. The CS has been an Evil Empire for generations, it hasn't had any ideals to sacrifice, only its victims do.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
User avatar
TechnoGothic
Knight
Posts: 5179
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Near Tampa Florida

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by TechnoGothic »

Don't forget the Warlocks with Elemental summoning too.
TechnoGothic
END OF LINE

Image

"The best things in life are to crush your enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentations of their women."-Conan
User avatar
Vrykolas2k
Champion
Posts: 3175
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 8:58 pm
Location: A snow-covered forest, littered with the bones of my slain enemies...
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Vrykolas2k »

[quote="Mech-Viper Prime
Ideology rarely works out too well in this sort of situation.[/quote]depends on how far you go , do you go after the soldiers who did it , or everyone in a coalition uniform?[/quote]



Do you know how to identify the specific thugs, or do you assume they're all as guilty since they all are in the same gang?
Those helmets conceal one's features, after all.
I'd keep doing what I had to to kill everyone in CS colours until they were either all gone from my area, or they found and killed me.
But that's just how I'd react to CS (or any other) atrocity.
Some would probably run and hide, and cry.
Not how I was brought up or trained.
Eyes without life, maggot-ridden corpses, mountains of skulls... these are a few of my favourite things.

I am the first angel, loved once above all others...

Light a man a fire, and he's warm for a day; light a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Turning the other cheek just gets you slapped harder.

The Smiling Bandit (Strikes Again!! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!)
User avatar
Mech-Viper Prime
Palladin
Posts: 6831
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:49 pm
Comment: Full of Love and C-4, give me a hug.
Location: Dinosaur swamplands
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

Vrykolas2k wrote:
Do you know how to identify the specific thugs, or do you assume they're all as guilty since they all are in the same gang?
Those helmets conceal one's features, after all.
I'd keep doing what I had to to kill everyone in CS colours until they were either all gone from my area, or they found and killed me.
But that's just how I'd react to CS (or any other) atrocity.
Some would probably run and hide, and cry.
Not how I was brought up or trained.

me i would take my time and get everyone who did the acts , and then fade away.
Ravenwing wrote:"Killing Dbee's isn't murder, they aren't human, it's pest control!"

Zardoz wrote:You have been raised up from Brutality, to kill the Brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Zardoz your God gave you the gift of the Gun. The Gun is good!
User avatar
Vrykolas2k
Champion
Posts: 3175
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 8:58 pm
Location: A snow-covered forest, littered with the bones of my slain enemies...
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Vrykolas2k »

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:
Do you know how to identify the specific thugs, or do you assume they're all as guilty since they all are in the same gang?
Those helmets conceal one's features, after all.
I'd keep doing what I had to to kill everyone in CS colours until they were either all gone from my area, or they found and killed me.
But that's just how I'd react to CS (or any other) atrocity.
Some would probably run and hide, and cry.
Not how I was brought up or trained.

me i would take my time and get everyone who did the acts , and then fade away.




Me, they're enemy combatants, kill them all.
Eyes without life, maggot-ridden corpses, mountains of skulls... these are a few of my favourite things.

I am the first angel, loved once above all others...

Light a man a fire, and he's warm for a day; light a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Turning the other cheek just gets you slapped harder.

The Smiling Bandit (Strikes Again!! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!)
Shark_Force
Palladin
Posts: 7128
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Shark_Force »

TechnoGothic wrote:Don't forget the Warlocks with Elemental summoning too.


those are handy, but the warlocks won't use their elementals as cannon fodder. a shifter doesn't necessarily care even a tiny bit about what happens to the minion that was likely going to stab him in the back in a few months (if the shifter doesn't pay very close attention anyways).

great troops, yes, but not what you want for suicide missions. with my proposed scenario, you can just send in 6,000 gargoyles every time and who cares how many of them die? you can just get more anyways.

however, let it not be said that they're useless... i mean, an earth elemental can walk through the ground pretty much and just firequake from underneath without risking harm. iirc, air elementals are unharmed by bullets (or should be) so they can deal with most SAMAS in the target location while the gargoyles trash the infantry, tanks, mech infantry, etc. fire elementals are also pretty good in the air, so they'd be handy. water elementals would be hardest to put to use, but are essentially invisible underwater, and i'm sure that could be used (it's a region with a lot of small lakes, rivers, streams, etc) although dog boys would make it harder.

but really, the key with the 6,000 gargoyles (or brodkil once you start capturing enemy weapons to equip them with) is that if you send them into a trap and they all die, who cares? if you send them into an uneven fight and they kill 3,000 troops but get wiped out entirely, who cares? you spent absolutely nothing permanent to get them out there (well, maybe a few pieces of paper and some carved wood for talismans), so you can just whip up a new group of them from scratch anyways. support them with tectonic entities and such if you like (step 1: turn CS military into MDC debris. step 2: tectonic entities inhabit debris and start kicking butt!), and add in some worms of taut for good measure (the blow worm would likely be a favorite, but some of the others that aren't purely melee and/or poison), and heck, use whatever other summoning spells you want to provide support (just don't send elementals out to die, you want to stay on the warlocks' good side).

i mean, here's a simple example...

you start with your 6,000 gargoyles. using create wood and ironwood, you give them various iron weapons (including at least a few swords). you give out enough scrolls/talismans to provide the front rank with their choice of frostblades, targeted deflection (almost ideal), or spinning blades and therefore the ability to block energy blasts (give them time to close to melee) and potentially a bit of ranged options. also give the ranks behind a large supply of fire globes (20d6 damage minimum, average 50d6 over time) to throw before they get into melee. so far we've spent: a crudload of PPE, some pieces of paper, some pieces of carved wood.

then, you go hunting for tectonic entities. not terribly common, you'll probably have to use the summon and control entities ritual (if you can find them, you could just use control & enslave entity instead, mind you. on the plus side... they're not likely to die, so you can start with summon and control, then when the duration runs out use control and enslave, and build up an army gradually). while nothing says these spells are limited as to how often you can use it, we'll assume it's 1/caster (or at least that you can only have the max listed for one casting in the description). so that's anywhere from 1,000 up to potentially 10,000 tectonic entities acting as further support and cannon fodder. they can travel through the astral at mach 1, so are highly mobile, and do not need to be teleported even. for the sake of argument, we'll assume only 4,000 tectonic entities. some will start off as cannon fodder, others may likely due to supply of material to be composed of have to wait until sufficient debris is generated from the CS side of things.

ideally, scrolls and talismans would be made with TW printing presses/lathes, to facilitate mass production. again, the only materials needed can be created with nothing more than regular PPE, which tolkeen has in abundance.

allow another type of minion with the summon lesser being ritual. grab something fairly basic (say, gargoyle mages or lords, to provide magical support and possibly manage some scrolls. perhaps gargoylytes to carry realm of chaos scrolls and then hide after casting while the CS troops are ripped apart by astral enemies - make sure to not pull anything that can detect the gargoylyte when he brings them along!)).

note that the summon rituals and the control/enslave can all be available to shifters at very low levels. also note that it is theoretically possible for a shifter to know the spell, "summon worms of taut" since that is a summoning spell, and when they level up they get a choice from spells that include "any summoning spell that may be desired, excluding weather-summoning." and while it is necromancy magic, it is still an invocation. other summoning spells apply also (including sea serpents, among others).


so now we have 6,000 gargoyles, 4,000 tectonic entities, 1,000 gargoyle mages/lords, and you can teleport them in via circle of travel (note that you'd need a few powerful casters for this) or other teleport spells to nearby (this can still be done with just the shifters) and just send them in to battle wherever you like (obviously, you need to plan in advance by placing circles of travel all over for the circle of travel option).

and you don't even care what kind of casualties they suffer, because you can replace them all at essentially zero cost. find a group of CS troops that will get overrun by them, teleport, kill, and then move on to the next bunch (possibly after summoning some replacements). if they all get killed, replace them all over the course of a day, maybe two, tops. you never send your shifters themselves in to fight, or any other citizens. just send in the mooks and let them kill. if you're feeling really confident, loot the battlefield afterwards.

sucks to be on the receiving end of that, i bet.
User avatar
TechnoGothic
Knight
Posts: 5179
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Near Tampa Florida

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by TechnoGothic »

yepp.
Tolkeen should have fought off the cs better...
TechnoGothic
END OF LINE

Image

"The best things in life are to crush your enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentations of their women."-Conan
Lenwen

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Lenwen »

My question about the Tolkeen Defense overall ..

Why have they never utilized .. any type of Aerial drone / mage who could suspend themselves high enough to see the vast majority of the battle field .. (acting exactly like a Leo satalite ) which would be .. beyond the CS's tech to strike effectively ?

With out even checking the spells I'm willing to bet a mage could easily do this for literally days at a time ..

I've never even understood why Palladium played Tolkeen like idiots .. lol
User avatar
Nightmask
Palladin
Posts: 9268
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Nightmask »

Lenwen wrote:My question about the Tolkeen Defense overall ..

Why have they never utilized .. any type of Aerial drone / mage who could suspend themselves high enough to see the vast majority of the battle field .. (acting exactly like a Leo satalite ) which would be .. beyond the CS's tech to strike effectively ?

With out even checking the spells I'm willing to bet a mage could easily do this for literally days at a time ..

I've never even understood why Palladium played Tolkeen like idiots .. lol


They were the designated loser, which they wouldn't have been if all those I.Q. 20+ characters had been written intelligently.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
User avatar
Damian Magecraft
Knight
Posts: 3472
Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 1:01 am
Comment: Evil GM
Master of Magics
Defender of the Faith
Location: chillicothe, ohio; usa
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Damian Magecraft »

Nightmask wrote:
Lenwen wrote:My question about the Tolkeen Defense overall ..

Why have they never utilized .. any type of Aerial drone / mage who could suspend themselves high enough to see the vast majority of the battle field .. (acting exactly like a Leo satalite ) which would be .. beyond the CS's tech to strike effectively ?

With out even checking the spells I'm willing to bet a mage could easily do this for literally days at a time ..

I've never even understood why Palladium played Tolkeen like idiots .. lol


They were the designated loser, which they wouldn't have been if all those I.Q. 20+ characters had been written intelligently.

While yes they were the designated losers.
I disagree with the assessment that the characters were written unintelligently.
Every one keeps making the same error when it comes to discussing SoT and who "should" have won.
Or that side A did not do X.
etc...

Every single person who makes that complaint assumes that Kevin knows as much as they do about war and tactics.
Actually I see this assumption made on every game companies web site...
The assumption that writers know absolutely everything there is to know about absolutely everything.

Can we please just drop the the SoT arguments?
We have gone through all of this at least once a year since the publication of SoT.
It always ends the same way...
the discussion ending in flipped tables and hurt feelings.
DM is correct by the way. - Ninjabunny
It's a shoddy carpenter who blames his tools. - Killer Cyborg
Every group has one problem player. If you cannot spot the one in your group; look in the mirror.
It is not a good session until at least one player looks you in the eye and says "you sick twisted evil ****"
User avatar
Mech-Viper Prime
Palladin
Posts: 6831
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:49 pm
Comment: Full of Love and C-4, give me a hug.
Location: Dinosaur swamplands
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

Damian Magecraft wrote:While yes they were the designated losers.
I disagree with the assessment that the characters were written unintelligently.
Every one keeps making the same error when it comes to discussing SoT and who "should" have won.
Or that side A did not do X.
etc...

Every single person who makes that complaint assumes that Kevin knows as much as they do about war and tactics.
Actually I see this assumption made on every game companies web site...
The assumption that writers know absolutely everything there is to know about absolutely everything.

Can we please just drop the the SoT arguments?
We have gone through all of this at least once a year since the publication of SoT.
It always ends the same way...
the discussion ending in flipped tables and hurt feelings.
every people who discovery rifts and siege of tolkeen will want to talk about it, while we (the old timers have talked it to death the younger pups haven't
Ravenwing wrote:"Killing Dbee's isn't murder, they aren't human, it's pest control!"

Zardoz wrote:You have been raised up from Brutality, to kill the Brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Zardoz your God gave you the gift of the Gun. The Gun is good!
User avatar
Damian Magecraft
Knight
Posts: 3472
Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 1:01 am
Comment: Evil GM
Master of Magics
Defender of the Faith
Location: chillicothe, ohio; usa
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Damian Magecraft »

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:While yes they were the designated losers.
I disagree with the assessment that the characters were written unintelligently.
Every one keeps making the same error when it comes to discussing SoT and who "should" have won.
Or that side A did not do X.
etc...

Every single person who makes that complaint assumes that Kevin knows as much as they do about war and tactics.
Actually I see this assumption made on every game companies web site...
The assumption that writers know absolutely everything there is to know about absolutely everything.

Can we please just drop the the SoT arguments?
We have gone through all of this at least once a year since the publication of SoT.
It always ends the same way...
the discussion ending in flipped tables and hurt feelings.
every people who discovery rifts and siege of tolkeen will want to talk about it, while we (the old timers have talked it to death the younger pups haven't

and yet the same inevitable outcome occurs.
same story...
new actors...
i have seen this boring opera before...
wake me at the curtain call.
DM is correct by the way. - Ninjabunny
It's a shoddy carpenter who blames his tools. - Killer Cyborg
Every group has one problem player. If you cannot spot the one in your group; look in the mirror.
It is not a good session until at least one player looks you in the eye and says "you sick twisted evil ****"
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 27983
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Nightmask wrote: Doesn't matter in that regard that they eventually shifted in alignment and moral stance from the Scrupulous end down to Miscreant (on average)...


Huh.
I thought that was a good part of the topic at hand, the reason why the Tolkeen defenders were not ultimately good guys.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 27983
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Vrykolas2k wrote:If a bunch of thugs from the gang known as the CS military showed up at my home, raped my sister and killed my family, I'd want revenge.
And if summoning demons was within my power to gain revenge, I'd do just that.
And since said thugs would be the invader, they'd not only have it coming, in essence they'd have also forced my hand.


And non-CS casualties who end up raped, tortured, and/or killed by the demons you summon are apparently not important enough stay your hand.
Which is where the evil comes in; if you're willing to kill innocents in order to extract revenge against evil, you are the monster you're fighting.

Once you're willing to put other innocent people through the same things that you're trying to avenge, you lose any moral high-ground.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 27983
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Nightmask wrote:
Lenwen wrote:My question about the Tolkeen Defense overall ..

Why have they never utilized .. any type of Aerial drone / mage who could suspend themselves high enough to see the vast majority of the battle field .. (acting exactly like a Leo satalite ) which would be .. beyond the CS's tech to strike effectively ?

With out even checking the spells I'm willing to bet a mage could easily do this for literally days at a time ..

I've never even understood why Palladium played Tolkeen like idiots .. lol


They were the designated loser, which they wouldn't have been if all those I.Q. 20+ characters had been written intelligently.


Both sides were played at idiots.

As for aerial mages, missile have a heck of a range.
Scrying of some kind would likely be better.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
Lenwen

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Lenwen »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:If a bunch of thugs from the gang known as the CS military showed up at my home, raped my sister and killed my family, I'd want revenge.
And if summoning demons was within my power to gain revenge, I'd do just that.
And since said thugs would be the invader, they'd not only have it coming, in essence they'd have also forced my hand.


And non-CS casualties who end up raped, tortured, and/or killed by the demons you summon are apparently not important enough stay your hand.
Which is where the evil comes in; if you're willing to kill innocents in order to extract revenge against evil, you are the monster you're fighting.

Once you're willing to put other innocent people through the same things that you're trying to avenge, you lose any moral high-ground.

Where were the innocent Coalition citizens in contrast to the innocent Tolkeen citizens ?
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 27983
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Lenwen wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:If a bunch of thugs from the gang known as the CS military showed up at my home, raped my sister and killed my family, I'd want revenge.
And if summoning demons was within my power to gain revenge, I'd do just that.
And since said thugs would be the invader, they'd not only have it coming, in essence they'd have also forced my hand.


And non-CS casualties who end up raped, tortured, and/or killed by the demons you summon are apparently not important enough stay your hand.
Which is where the evil comes in; if you're willing to kill innocents in order to extract revenge against evil, you are the monster you're fighting.

Once you're willing to put other innocent people through the same things that you're trying to avenge, you lose any moral high-ground.

Where were the innocent Coalition citizens in contrast to the innocent Tolkeen citizens ?


Not sure what you're asking, but I'm not talking about CS citizens.

Aftermath, p. 24-25
(regarding summoned minions and supernatural allies of Tolkeen, after Tolkeen fell)
Demons, being vile, self-serving creatures, either fled or engaged in acts of cruelty and murder against any too weak to oppose them.

Many Brodkil have turned to looting and banditry.

[The Daemonix who stuck around] without a master to guide them, return to their evil ways, going off in all directions, feeding on humanoids and trying to figure out what to do next. Daemonix who remain in the Minnesota region without a mortal master prey upon the very people they once promised to serve and protect.

Without Shifters and other mages to control them... Tectonic Entities roam the wasteland of The Barrens and streets of the burning cities, wreaking death and destruction upon all they encounter, Tolkeenites and Coalition alike.

Other creatures such as the Black Faeries, Witchlings, Neuron Beasts, Chatterlings, Threno Bat-Things and other monsters have crawled back into whatever holes thy came from or have limped away to lick their wounds and find new places to trouble. Some linger, preying upon refugees, resistance fighters, adventurers and Coalition forces without discrimination.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
Mech-Viper Prime
Palladin
Posts: 6831
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:49 pm
Comment: Full of Love and C-4, give me a hug.
Location: Dinosaur swamplands
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

Firebrand_Heretic wrote:...So, am I too late to say that while I don't support the Coalition States and wouldn't live there I'd try my damnedest to get to Lazlo, MercTown or Dweomer? Even if it killed me--it'd be worth it to try and help people along the way; give advice, teach, maybe do some legitimate hard work to earn a night in a barn and a hot meal. Dangerous? Hell yes. Worth it to be able to live freely? Yeah, I think so.

nope its never late
Ravenwing wrote:"Killing Dbee's isn't murder, they aren't human, it's pest control!"

Zardoz wrote:You have been raised up from Brutality, to kill the Brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Zardoz your God gave you the gift of the Gun. The Gun is good!
User avatar
Vrykolas2k
Champion
Posts: 3175
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 8:58 pm
Location: A snow-covered forest, littered with the bones of my slain enemies...
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Vrykolas2k »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:If a bunch of thugs from the gang known as the CS military showed up at my home, raped my sister and killed my family, I'd want revenge.
And if summoning demons was within my power to gain revenge, I'd do just that.
And since said thugs would be the invader, they'd not only have it coming, in essence they'd have also forced my hand.


And non-CS casualties who end up raped, tortured, and/or killed by the demons you summon are apparently not important enough stay your hand.
Which is where the evil comes in; if you're willing to kill innocents in order to extract revenge against evil, you are the monster you're fighting.

Once you're willing to put other innocent people through the same things that you're trying to avenge, you lose any moral high-ground.




By that point, I'm not looking for a moral high ground.
In point of fact I am rather dubious about what you think a moral high ground is at the best of times, and often feel little regard for it anyway.
Eyes without life, maggot-ridden corpses, mountains of skulls... these are a few of my favourite things.

I am the first angel, loved once above all others...

Light a man a fire, and he's warm for a day; light a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.

Turning the other cheek just gets you slapped harder.

The Smiling Bandit (Strikes Again!! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!)
User avatar
Hystrix
Champion
Posts: 1828
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 2:01 am
Location: At work or on my Xbox
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Hystrix »

Vrykolas2k wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:If a bunch of thugs from the gang known as the CS military showed up at my home, raped my sister and killed my family, I'd want revenge.
And if summoning demons was within my power to gain revenge, I'd do just that.
And since said thugs would be the invader, they'd not only have it coming, in essence they'd have also forced my hand.


And non-CS casualties who end up raped, tortured, and/or killed by the demons you summon are apparently not important enough stay your hand.
Which is where the evil comes in; if you're willing to kill innocents in order to extract revenge against evil, you are the monster you're fighting.

Once you're willing to put other innocent people through the same things that you're trying to avenge, you lose any moral high-ground.




By that point, I'm not looking for a moral high ground.
In point of fact I am rather dubious about what you think a moral high ground is at the best of times, and often feel little regard for it anyway.



And that's fine for you. But that makes you a bad guy. And that's what is being said. Tolkeen was far from being good guys.

I had an old Sergeant Major who said "What makes us different from our enemies is how we treat our enimies." What he ment was how captured POWs are treated. There were times when POW were wrongly treated, but the standard is to follow the Geneva Convention and treat POWs with respect. Al Queda dosn't treat American POWs the same way. There's a difference.

That being said, Tolkeen's standard was to slaughter CS soldiers in their sleep, and summon demons to rape/ kill/ eat the enemy. Killer Cyborg has already pointed out, that made them bad guys. Your forgivness dosn't absolve them of that...
Hystrix, the Post Killer, Destroyer of Threads
User avatar
Killer Cyborg
Priest
Posts: 27983
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 2:01 am
Comment: "Your Eloquence with a sledge hammer is a beautiful thing..." -Zer0 Kay
Location: In the ocean, punching oncoming waves
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Vrykolas2k wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:If a bunch of thugs from the gang known as the CS military showed up at my home, raped my sister and killed my family, I'd want revenge.
And if summoning demons was within my power to gain revenge, I'd do just that.
And since said thugs would be the invader, they'd not only have it coming, in essence they'd have also forced my hand.


And non-CS casualties who end up raped, tortured, and/or killed by the demons you summon are apparently not important enough stay your hand.
Which is where the evil comes in; if you're willing to kill innocents in order to extract revenge against evil, you are the monster you're fighting.

Once you're willing to put other innocent people through the same things that you're trying to avenge, you lose any moral high-ground.


By that point, I'm not looking for a moral high ground.


Good, because you're not finding it.
As long as you're aware that you're the bad guy, there's not much to argue about.

In point of fact I am rather dubious about what you think a moral high ground is at the best of times and often feel little regard for it anyway.


If you can find a good argument for the notion that killing innocent people in order to avenge the deaths of innocent people is a morally sound decision, I'm open to hear it.
Annual Best Poster of the Year Awards (2012)

"That rifle on the wall of the laborer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell

Check out my Author Page on Amazon!
User avatar
Nightmask
Palladin
Posts: 9268
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Nightmask »

Hystrix wrote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Vrykolas2k wrote:If a bunch of thugs from the gang known as the CS military showed up at my home, raped my sister and killed my family, I'd want revenge.
And if summoning demons was within my power to gain revenge, I'd do just that.
And since said thugs would be the invader, they'd not only have it coming, in essence they'd have also forced my hand.


And non-CS casualties who end up raped, tortured, and/or killed by the demons you summon are apparently not important enough stay your hand.
Which is where the evil comes in; if you're willing to kill innocents in order to extract revenge against evil, you are the monster you're fighting.

Once you're willing to put other innocent people through the same things that you're trying to avenge, you lose any moral high-ground.




By that point, I'm not looking for a moral high ground.
In point of fact I am rather dubious about what you think a moral high ground is at the best of times, and often feel little regard for it anyway.



And that's fine for you. But that makes you a bad guy. And that's what is being said. Tolkeen was far from being good guys.

I had an old Sergeant Major who said "What makes us different from our enemies is how we treat our enimies." What he ment was how captured POWs are treated. There were times when POW were wrongly treated, but the standard is to follow the Geneva Convention and treat POWs with respect. Al Queda dosn't treat American POWs the same way. There's a difference.

That being said, Tolkeen's standard was to slaughter CS soldiers in their sleep, and summon demons to rape/ kill/ eat the enemy. Killer Cyborg has already pointed out, that made them bad guys. Your forgivness dosn't absolve them of that...


You say that like that was how they'd always done things which just isn't so. The CS was the one from start to finish who engaged in those various brutalities from the beginning, Tolkeen only started sliding into that (and even then it's debatable that it was a standard like the CS, more that they were just so worn down that they stopped caring if their troops were engaging in such evils) long into the war. If they hadn't been fighting a demonic entity (and let's face it the CS was acting as the worst sort of evil that even demons would admire) in a war for survival it's unlikely Tolkeen would have gone as it did.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
User avatar
Mech-Viper Prime
Palladin
Posts: 6831
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:49 pm
Comment: Full of Love and C-4, give me a hug.
Location: Dinosaur swamplands
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

Nightmask wrote:You say that like that was how they'd always done things which just isn't so. The CS was the one from start to finish who engaged in those various brutalities from the beginning, Tolkeen only started sliding into that (and even then it's debatable that it was a standard like the CS, more that they were just so worn down that they stopped caring if their troops were engaging in such evils) long into the war. If they hadn't been fighting a demonic entity (and let's face it the CS was acting as the worst sort of evil that even demons would admire) in a war for survival it's unlikely Tolkeen would have gone as it did.

when Lazlo looks to you as a sister city , and turns away in disgust there is something wrong, Tolkeen became no better then the coalition,after tolkeen countersrike when they start killing Cs soldiers , while they were sleeping, running away, pleading for mercy and acts like that puts you in the league below them, because you had moral standard but yet throw them out the window because of war. you are a reflection of the company you keep.
Ravenwing wrote:"Killing Dbee's isn't murder, they aren't human, it's pest control!"

Zardoz wrote:You have been raised up from Brutality, to kill the Brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Zardoz your God gave you the gift of the Gun. The Gun is good!
User avatar
johnkretzer
Adventurer
Posts: 726
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:44 am
Comment: Power gaming in Rifts is NOT hard or challenging. If you want to impress people with you power gaming skills try Toon
Location: New Jersey

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by johnkretzer »

SkyeFyre wrote:Maybe you could explain this to me then (honestly, I haven't completely understood it). Exactly what would I be doing wrong? Is intelligence really outlawed? Like... do you require an IQ of 8 or lower to be a CS citizen?

I think I'll stop using quote now.

EDIT TO CLARIFY: I've read the books and looked at the laws as outlined in CWC. I don't see anything in there that would be hard to follow. Sure it would be an adjustment, but there are parts in the books where people who can read have been invited into the CS (I'll have to search for it again, but I know it's in there somewhere).


The problem is you would have forbidden knowledge. Unless you are skilled in espinodge or experienced with dealing with a police state...you would let sometthing slip that will give you away. You'll be picked tortured to see how you know what you know...when they find out unless you have very important infomation they could use( which you probably don't as any tech infomation and skills you have will be obsolete) you will be deemed a enemy of the state and excuted. Even if you have important info...your mind would probably be raped for the info and than you would be excuted. Sorry but a time traveler would probably be the biggest threat to the CS than all the D-Bees, magic users, etc combined.
User avatar
Nightmask
Palladin
Posts: 9268
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Nightmask »

johnkretzer wrote:
SkyeFyre wrote:Maybe you could explain this to me then (honestly, I haven't completely understood it). Exactly what would I be doing wrong? Is intelligence really outlawed? Like... do you require an IQ of 8 or lower to be a CS citizen?

I think I'll stop using quote now.

EDIT TO CLARIFY: I've read the books and looked at the laws as outlined in CWC. I don't see anything in there that would be hard to follow. Sure it would be an adjustment, but there are parts in the books where people who can read have been invited into the CS (I'll have to search for it again, but I know it's in there somewhere).


The problem is you would have forbidden knowledge. Unless you are skilled in espinodge or experienced with dealing with a police state...you would let sometthing slip that will give you away. You'll be picked tortured to see how you know what you know...when they find out unless you have very important infomation they could use( which you probably don't as any tech infomation and skills you have will be obsolete) you will be deemed a enemy of the state and excuted. Even if you have important info...your mind would probably be raped for the info and than you would be excuted. Sorry but a time traveler would probably be the biggest threat to the CS than all the D-Bees, magic users, etc combined.


I'd have to agree with that. Individuals from the past who can relate the true history of the US and make mention of such dangerous concepts as freedom of speech, thought, and dissent and to judge others based on their actions rather than trust blindly in your leaders would be the greatest of all dangers to the CS. It's not power but bringing forth enough citizens who think and question that they can't kill them all before it spreads virally that can truly destroy the CS.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
User avatar
Mech-Viper Prime
Palladin
Posts: 6831
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:49 pm
Comment: Full of Love and C-4, give me a hug.
Location: Dinosaur swamplands
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

johnkretzer wrote:
SkyeFyre wrote:Maybe you could explain this to me then (honestly, I haven't completely understood it). Exactly what would I be doing wrong? Is intelligence really outlawed? Like... do you require an IQ of 8 or lower to be a CS citizen?

I think I'll stop using quote now.

EDIT TO CLARIFY: I've read the books and looked at the laws as outlined in CWC. I don't see anything in there that would be hard to follow. Sure it would be an adjustment, but there are parts in the books where people who can read have been invited into the CS (I'll have to search for it again, but I know it's in there somewhere).


The problem is you would have forbidden knowledge. Unless you are skilled in espinodge or experienced with dealing with a police state...you would let sometthing slip that will give you away. You'll be picked tortured to see how you know what you know...when they find out unless you have very important infomation they could use( which you probably don't as any tech infomation and skills you have will be obsolete) you will be deemed a enemy of the state and excuted. Even if you have important info...your mind would probably be raped for the info and than you would be excuted. Sorry but a time traveler would probably be the biggest threat to the CS than all the D-Bees, magic users, etc combined.

unless you can give them a great reason.
"Did you guys know the shemarrians riders actually robots controlled but a AI out of the old proving ground in maryland."
Ravenwing wrote:"Killing Dbee's isn't murder, they aren't human, it's pest control!"

Zardoz wrote:You have been raised up from Brutality, to kill the Brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Zardoz your God gave you the gift of the Gun. The Gun is good!
Gamer
Adventurer
Posts: 709
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:41 pm
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Gamer »

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
johnkretzer wrote:
SkyeFyre wrote:Maybe you could explain this to me then (honestly, I haven't completely understood it). Exactly what would I be doing wrong? Is intelligence really outlawed? Like... do you require an IQ of 8 or lower to be a CS citizen?

I think I'll stop using quote now.

EDIT TO CLARIFY: I've read the books and looked at the laws as outlined in CWC. I don't see anything in there that would be hard to follow. Sure it would be an adjustment, but there are parts in the books where people who can read have been invited into the CS (I'll have to search for it again, but I know it's in there somewhere).


The problem is you would have forbidden knowledge. Unless you are skilled in espinodge or experienced with dealing with a police state...you would let sometthing slip that will give you away. You'll be picked tortured to see how you know what you know...when they find out unless you have very important infomation they could use( which you probably don't as any tech infomation and skills you have will be obsolete) you will be deemed a enemy of the state and excuted. Even if you have important info...your mind would probably be raped for the info and than you would be excuted. Sorry but a time traveler would probably be the biggest threat to the CS than all the D-Bees, magic users, etc combined.

unless you can give them a great reason.
"Did you guys know the shemarrians riders actually robots controlled but a AI out of the old proving ground in maryland."

Only the controlling AI isn't in the old Proving grounds of Maryland now is it.
You just got yourself tortured and or executed in that slip up alone.
Dulce bellum inexpertis.
User avatar
Mech-Viper Prime
Palladin
Posts: 6831
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:49 pm
Comment: Full of Love and C-4, give me a hug.
Location: Dinosaur swamplands
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

Gamer wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
johnkretzer wrote:
SkyeFyre wrote:Maybe you could explain this to me then (honestly, I haven't completely understood it). Exactly what would I be doing wrong? Is intelligence really outlawed? Like... do you require an IQ of 8 or lower to be a CS citizen?

I think I'll stop using quote now.

EDIT TO CLARIFY: I've read the books and looked at the laws as outlined in CWC. I don't see anything in there that would be hard to follow. Sure it would be an adjustment, but there are parts in the books where people who can read have been invited into the CS (I'll have to search for it again, but I know it's in there somewhere).


The problem is you would have forbidden knowledge. Unless you are skilled in espinodge or experienced with dealing with a police state...you would let sometthing slip that will give you away. You'll be picked tortured to see how you know what you know...when they find out unless you have very important infomation they could use( which you probably don't as any tech infomation and skills you have will be obsolete) you will be deemed a enemy of the state and excuted. Even if you have important info...your mind would probably be raped for the info and than you would be excuted. Sorry but a time traveler would probably be the biggest threat to the CS than all the D-Bees, magic users, etc combined.

unless you can give them a great reason.
"Did you guys know the shemarrians riders actually robots controlled but a AI out of the old proving ground in maryland."

Only the controlling AI isn't in the old Proving grounds of Maryland now is it.
You just got yourself tortured and or executed in that slip up alone.
but odds are they would find something of archies there
Ravenwing wrote:"Killing Dbee's isn't murder, they aren't human, it's pest control!"

Zardoz wrote:You have been raised up from Brutality, to kill the Brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Zardoz your God gave you the gift of the Gun. The Gun is good!
User avatar
Nightmask
Palladin
Posts: 9268
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Nightmask »

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
johnkretzer wrote:
SkyeFyre wrote:Maybe you could explain this to me then (honestly, I haven't completely understood it). Exactly what would I be doing wrong? Is intelligence really outlawed? Like... do you require an IQ of 8 or lower to be a CS citizen?

I think I'll stop using quote now.

EDIT TO CLARIFY: I've read the books and looked at the laws as outlined in CWC. I don't see anything in there that would be hard to follow. Sure it would be an adjustment, but there are parts in the books where people who can read have been invited into the CS (I'll have to search for it again, but I know it's in there somewhere).


The problem is you would have forbidden knowledge. Unless you are skilled in espinodge or experienced with dealing with a police state...you would let sometthing slip that will give you away. You'll be picked tortured to see how you know what you know...when they find out unless you have very important infomation they could use( which you probably don't as any tech infomation and skills you have will be obsolete) you will be deemed a enemy of the state and excuted. Even if you have important info...your mind would probably be raped for the info and than you would be excuted. Sorry but a time traveler would probably be the biggest threat to the CS than all the D-Bees, magic users, etc combined.

unless you can give them a great reason.
"Did you guys know the shemarrians riders actually robots controlled but a AI out of the old proving ground in maryland."


There isn't any reason you can give that'd be great enough that they'd keep you alive. I mean say you show up knowing everything that's in the game books, which would include mind you all the secrets of the CS. You're way too dangerous to leave alive, at minimum you'd spend your existence in a tiny cell being monitored 24/7 and mind-probed until nothing was left to gain from you before killing you. Heck you could decide to bargain with an alien intelligence (after all you KNOW they exist and can pick up on someone looking to bargain) and give all that CS secret info to one of them.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
User avatar
Mech-Viper Prime
Palladin
Posts: 6831
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:49 pm
Comment: Full of Love and C-4, give me a hug.
Location: Dinosaur swamplands
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

Nightmask wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
johnkretzer wrote:
SkyeFyre wrote:Maybe you could explain this to me then (honestly, I haven't completely understood it). Exactly what would I be doing wrong? Is intelligence really outlawed? Like... do you require an IQ of 8 or lower to be a CS citizen?

I think I'll stop using quote now.

EDIT TO CLARIFY: I've read the books and looked at the laws as outlined in CWC. I don't see anything in there that would be hard to follow. Sure it would be an adjustment, but there are parts in the books where people who can read have been invited into the CS (I'll have to search for it again, but I know it's in there somewhere).


The problem is you would have forbidden knowledge. Unless you are skilled in espinodge or experienced with dealing with a police state...you would let sometthing slip that will give you away. You'll be picked tortured to see how you know what you know...when they find out unless you have very important infomation they could use( which you probably don't as any tech infomation and skills you have will be obsolete) you will be deemed a enemy of the state and excuted. Even if you have important info...your mind would probably be raped for the info and than you would be excuted. Sorry but a time traveler would probably be the biggest threat to the CS than all the D-Bees, magic users, etc combined.

unless you can give them a great reason.
"Did you guys know the shemarrians riders actually robots controlled but a AI out of the old proving ground in maryland."


There isn't any reason you can give that'd be great enough that they'd keep you alive. I mean say you show up knowing everything that's in the game books, which would include mind you all the secrets of the CS. You're way too dangerous to leave alive, at minimum you'd spend your existence in a tiny cell being monitored 24/7 and mind-probed until nothing was left to gain from you before killing you. Heck you could decide to bargain with an alien intelligence (after all you KNOW they exist and can pick up on someone looking to bargain) and give all that CS secret info to one of them.

but i would i give to the CS, because the other human nations are a joke at best
Ravenwing wrote:"Killing Dbee's isn't murder, they aren't human, it's pest control!"

Zardoz wrote:You have been raised up from Brutality, to kill the Brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Zardoz your God gave you the gift of the Gun. The Gun is good!
User avatar
johnkretzer
Adventurer
Posts: 726
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:44 am
Comment: Power gaming in Rifts is NOT hard or challenging. If you want to impress people with you power gaming skills try Toon
Location: New Jersey

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by johnkretzer »

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:unless you can give them a great reason.
"Did you guys know the shemarrians riders actually robots controlled but a AI out of the old proving ground in maryland."


So your plan is to give them int. you can't back up? When asked where you got this info...you'll say what?

'I got it from a fictional book from my time?"

If you are lucky at this point you'll just be euthansia for being crazy...
User avatar
johnkretzer
Adventurer
Posts: 726
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 12:44 am
Comment: Power gaming in Rifts is NOT hard or challenging. If you want to impress people with you power gaming skills try Toon
Location: New Jersey

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by johnkretzer »

I have to say...I would not stay...as I view it as a zero chance of survival in the CS for myself...in the wilderness you might get lucky and run into a Cyber-Knight or other Heroes. In the CS even the 'Heroes' will turn you over to the secret police...

I find it funny that people without any form of training think they can survive in one of those fortress cities.
User avatar
Mech-Viper Prime
Palladin
Posts: 6831
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:49 pm
Comment: Full of Love and C-4, give me a hug.
Location: Dinosaur swamplands
Contact:

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Mech-Viper Prime »

johnkretzer wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:unless you can give them a great reason.
"Did you guys know the shemarrians riders actually robots controlled but a AI out of the old proving ground in maryland."


So your plan is to give them int. you can't back up? When asked where you got this info...you'll say what?

'I got it from a fictional book from my time?"

If you are lucky at this point you'll just be euthansia for being crazy...

yup as crazy as it sounds then i would give them some info on the coalition and catch little jojo ear
Ravenwing wrote:"Killing Dbee's isn't murder, they aren't human, it's pest control!"

Zardoz wrote:You have been raised up from Brutality, to kill the Brutals who multiply, and are legion. To this end, Zardoz your God gave you the gift of the Gun. The Gun is good!
User avatar
Nightmask
Palladin
Posts: 9268
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am

Re: The realities of the situation

Unread post by Nightmask »

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:
johnkretzer wrote:
Mech-Viper Prime wrote:unless you can give them a great reason.
"Did you guys know the shemarrians riders actually robots controlled but a AI out of the old proving ground in maryland."


So your plan is to give them int. you can't back up? When asked where you got this info...you'll say what?

'I got it from a fictional book from my time?"

If you are lucky at this point you'll just be euthansia for being crazy...

yup as crazy as it sounds then i would give them some info on the coalition and catch little jojo ear


Really ignoring the paranoia factor there. Really great idea going into a police state and say 'hey btw I know all this great secret info on you like Bradford's genetic experiments down in Lone Star so you can trust me when I say this.' You'll be dead so fast you'll still be wondering why your soul's transitioned a million years later. Seriously, people like that don't go 'great we shall now embrace you!' they go 'How did you get that information?! What spies do you have in our organization?!! Talk!!' and when they're done doing that they'll kill you.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Post Reply

Return to “Rifts®”