Dwarfs and technology

[Nightmask]

Can't see any dwarf considering it to be any kind of magic, indeed it'd be in their mindset of focusing on what the real world can provide and proving it superior to magic in the end. Steam heating is a fairly common use of steam technology, propulsion, and cleaning off the top of my head for possibilities. Centralized heating with steam to transport the heat is often where things start.

[drewkitty ~..~]

dwarves love tech in all of its non-magic forms.

I would limit them to steam tech (go Steam punk) as the highest level of tech available on the PF world.

[Mallak's Place]

It makes sense that the only race/culture on the planet that has forsaken magic would be the one to start making technologocal advancements

[Jorel]

Dwarves.

[TheGameMaster]

Off the top of my head I could see;
A steam powered crossbow with rapid fire
Hot Air baloons
A trap that blasts an area with extreamly hot steam
you couls even consider steam powered cars and such.

[Mallak's Place]

early steam tech for dwarves would probably be in the area of mining. powering pumps to keep water out of the mine to pump in fresh air, to haul mine cars and elevators to the various levels of the mine. maybe some early steam powered rock cutting/drilling/tunneling technology. pump technology could lead into compressed gas technology allowing the invention of gas powered projectile weapons

[Jorel]

Reminding me of FF4 and FF6.

[azazel1024]

Maybe. I like the idea of limited 18th century technology being utlized by the PB world. However, in Library of Bletherad when discussing the inventor stuff (whatever that section is called in the library) it basically says that the reason the PFRPG world hasn't gotten much in the way of tech higher than the late medieval period (with a few exceptions) is that magic just works so well and is relatively common.

So for mining, I doubt the dwarves would use steam, it would be easier just to get an Earth warlock to do the work for them.

Yeah, I know dwarves disdaine of magic. I say that is a load of whooey. The race never would have given up on it wholesale in the years following the elf-dwarf war. When I run PFRPG games dwarves have magic. However, if a dwarf runs across an evil wizard or magic user, even if the dwarf themself is evil, look out! They remember the elf-dwarf war all too well and have a lot of blood guilt still. Only the most truely depraved dwarf will take up magic and use it for evil, and this is very, very rare. The occasional aberant evil character might use magic.

Summoners do not occur among dwarves and rune magic is not practiced. Earth Warlocks are very common and to a lesser degree wizards to the beginings of technowizards (more like enchanters or alchemists since there isn't really any tech to wizard).

[azazel1024]

IMHO if you are going to introduce steam engines, I think it would be for a Newcomen or MAYBE a Watt style steam engine. Pretty much you are going to see them used for water pumping for mining to drain mines of ground seepage (what steam engines were originally used for and for decades after their invention the only thing they were used for). You might see them used to run the occasional mill or maybe an automated bellows for a larger scale dwarven foundry.

It kind of defeats the purpose of the game introducing high technology, and also well over a century advanced on the introduction of steam engines, to see them used for anything like a locomotive, or steam barge, steam boat, etc.

FYI Newcomen and Watt steam engines were BIG. They had to be as they worked on vaccum pressure of condensing steam. High pressure steam engines weren't inveted until 1800, more than 100 years after the first newcomen steam engine (Trevithic steam engine).

[The Dark Elf]

I cant resist saying that I dislike steampower in fantasy settings. For me it detracts from said setting. I'll say no more as it's not valid to your (more than welcome) own conversation, just couldnt sit here and not say that. Apologies.

[Nightmask]

I cant resist saying that I dislike steampower in fantasy settings. For me it detracts from said setting. I'll say no more as it's not valid to your (more than welcome) own conversation, just couldnt sit here and not say that. Apologies.

S'all good.

Kind of funny the people who don't like even steam technology in a Medieval fantasy setting, considering they were surprisingly advanced and had things people today really don't realize that they had. The Romans had a form of central heating that could heat an entire house and bath thousands of years ago for example and the Chinese had fireworks long before that. Something like steam tech ought to be fa more believable than it is to many because of the perception that things were more backward than they actually were for much of that period.

[Hendrik]

Hi there,

this is a fascinating topic which I have followed with great interest because it touches on a subject that is quite dear to me: the question of technology use in a fantasy setting.

I cant resist saying that I dislike steampower in fantasy settings. For me it detracts from said setting. I'll say no more as it's not valid to your (more than welcome) own conversation, just couldnt sit here and not say that. Apologies.

Kind of funny the people who don't like even steam technology in a Medieval fantasy setting, considering they were surprisingly advanced and had things people today really don't realize that they had. The Romans had a form of central heating that could heat an entire house and bath thousands of years ago for example and the Chinese had fireworks long before that. Something like steam tech ought to be fa more believable than it is to many because of the perception that things were more backward than they actually were for much of that period.

AGREE WITH NIGHTMASK AND DARK ELF / AZAEL1024
Let my start by doing the seemingly impossible and agree with Nightmask and The Dark Elf here at the same time.

I DO NOT WANT “HIGH TECH” IN MY FANTASY SETTING, IT DISPELS MY ILLUSION
Like the good Dark Elf I do not want to have “higher technology” in my fantasy setting. The reason is simple, from a certain level upwards technology dispels the illusion necessary for me to enjoy a fantasy setting. I like it mediaeval and fantastical, technology in contrast is too “this world”. I do, however, allow – although it is a closely guarded secret – greek fire.

I agree with azazel1024 there, too.

It kind of defeats the purpose of the game introducing high technology,

HOWEVER: LIMITED “HISTORICAL” TECH USE IS FINE FOR ME
I will, however, wholeheartedly agree with Nightmask in so far as I allow any type of technology in place up to the year c. 1300 with the exception of gunpowder. I allow smoke “bombs” but not guns or “real” explosives. I find that too “mundane.

But Nightmask is, of course, perfectly right, if I may say so, to state that there were many technologies from antiquity alone, such as underwater cement use, pretty advanced hydraulic systems, maybe arguably the Cesarian section (not unimportant when considering birth rates and child/mother mortality rates), dental and other surgery, use of rubber to a limited extent, etc.

And, yes, certainly the Roman Dung Central Heating

Regarding steam use I know there is the aeolipile but, as allegedly in Earth history, it has not been put to a practical use in my world. I would like to add that even if this invention would be applied to a certain extent, the question is how far that would actually go. I am not a physicist or engineer but I think it is quite a way from the aeolipile to the Watt engine.

THAT SAID – DWARVES “CAN DO” (theoretically )
That said, in general there is no reason that Dwarves (or anybody else at that) could develop practical applications for steam or other “higher” technology. For me that would feel like a science-fantasy setting, but why not. Dwarves certainly have the mental capacity, metallurgical knowledge and craftsmanship capabilities necessary to go the extra mile to advancing technologically. Dwarves also have the time as a society to develop, too – dwarven society is millennia old, many of those millennia after the Great War were, more or less, peaceful and the dwarves are pretty well trenched in.

TO WHAT EXTENT HAS TO BE DEFINED (if you want it)
If dwarves developed practical applications, I would feel it is very important to exactly delineate and define

1. how far their technology has developed;
2. why their technology is not used by other races;
3. or, if it is used (either through technology export or “patent poaching”) by others, to what extent;
4. or, if others do have not gained themselves the know-how of such technology, if the dwarves (some always want to make money and sell the dearest secrets of a society, just look at the cold war) and to what extent export machinery (as “black box” items for example.

I would be wary of miniaturizing as that is as far as I know a higher technology level. I am not saying it would be impossible, it just has all sorts of consequences, such as hand weapon use would be more possible.

A CAN OF WORMS?

I have batted the idea of Dwarfs and LIMITED steam based technology. The use is mostly in mining, but Dwarfs aren't known for being limited thinkers. What other areas might Dwarfs use steam for, and how many Dwarfs would see this as another form of magic to be forsaken?

I think, Ninjabunny, that is exactly the potential problem. If the technology is there, I think it would be developed. Dwarves simply had so much time on hand to “climb the ladder” it will be harder to explain to players that they went only to point X but did not go further than that. (Which does not mean that a DM can just say “that’s what it is, dwarves just did not arrive at Y yet”.)

I wonder if allowing steam technology beyond a big steam engine water mill or some such does not open a big can of worms. As azazel1024 said, do you want a locomotive, steam barge, etc? I may add: Do you want steam exoskeletons, steam mechs, steam tanks (or catapults ), steam repeater crossbows / ballistae, etc. etc.? I am not saying that would not be cool. I just want to illustrate why I think defining the extent is very important.

DWARVES AND MAGIC USE: IMHO A CULTURAL BIAS ONLY

Yeah, I know dwarves disdaine of magic. I say that is a load of whooey. The race never would have given up on it wholesale in the years following the elf-dwarf war. When I run PFRPG games dwarves have magic. However, if a dwarf runs across an evil wizard or magic user, even if the dwarf themself is evil, look out! They remember the elf-dwarf war all too well and have a lot of blood guilt still. Only the most truely depraved dwarf will take up magic and use it for evil, and this is very, very rare. The occasional aberant evil character might use magic.

Azazel1024, that is exactly as I see it.

It just does not make sense at all for a race as a whole to completely forsake the use of magic. I always took “no magic” to mean that there is a massive cultural (and likely legal) bias against any dwarven magic use within dwarven society.

However, because dwarves are ABLE to use magic, I would venture that in many millennia there will definitely have been dwarves who did the forbidden. Maybe for a good cause, maybe out of avarice, maybe just curiosity, maybe out of the hunger for power, maybe because of a (perverse or not) hunger for knowledge.

MAYBE LIMITED DWARVEN MAGIC USE HAS BETTER FANTASY FLAVOUR THAN DWARVEN “HIGH TECH”
I would think, to introduce an interesting limited extent of (secret, woohoo) magic use for dwarves may be more interesting and more fantasy flavoured than to introduce more (steam) technology.

ALL THAT SAID: STEAMPUNK-ISH - WHY NOT?
Let me close by saying that I think your idea, Ninjabunny, is nice and has lots of potential for a very cool campaign. I also agree that for a fantasy setting steam use should be limited. The question is, however, whether such a limitation will work. I see a credibility issue a player discussions. Maybe it is as interesting as limited "higher technology" use for a fantasy setting to have Dwarven magic. Maybe that is more acceptable and less "dangerous" a can of worms. That said, however, a steampunk setting is cool.

Kind regards,
Hendrik

[azazel1024]

Agree w/ the two above.

The kind of tech they had during the Roman and Greek periods as well as further East in Arabia, I am not surpised by (but that is because I am very much a student of history, so there is relatively little on a macro and technological scale I didn't know about from the period of about 3500BCE to today, especially in the mediterranian and near East).

However, other than a "toy" (aeolipile) there were no machines that harnessed steam power until about 1690CE/AD, either in the European world, Near East, Far East or Americas. At least no recorded examples ever occuring.

If the Dwarves either don't use magic or don't rely on others who use magic, if they ever developed steam technology there is little that would hold them back from taking it to its "logical" conclusion. Developing steam technology is what rapidly caused Europe and the World to industrialize and develop other technologies, such as metalurgy, factory manufacturing, interchangable parts, standardization, internal combustion, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

So if the Dwarves use no magic and develope steam in PFRPG, steam technology would have to be a very recent introduction. If they've had it for thousands of years, odds are good it would be advanced to the level of steam punk at the very least, and most likely they would have moved well beyond steam punk and have internal combustion engines, electricity, etc, etc, etc. If dwarves DO have magic, I could see some limited steam tech existing side by side with it. No drive to develop ever higher technology if magic can take care of the really "hard stuff", and just use steam for things like draining mines, maybe driving some mills, etc. Places where frankly magic is kind of wasted a little bit. No real reason to improve steam engines, make them smaller, more efficient, etc if Dwarves use magic on some level.

[The Dark Elf]

Opened it up. Sorry, was not the intent...

[Jorel]

I like the idea of Dwarves with a little bit of edge in their tech.

That said I also like this side topic of Dwarf use of magic. A secret society of Dwarven mages that help in the excavating and forming of mines and homes, while secretly being covered up by the Dwarven kings and their governing bodies.

[bigbobsr6000]

I like PFRPG without the dwarves with steam power.

However, If one does I would make it very secretive Steam Guild with only its few top memebers knowing all the secrets of steam. Have an Apprentice Class (Water toters, gofers, guage watchers, fire stokers). A 2nd Assistance Class (Pipe connectors, pulley assembly, valve operators). A 1st Assistance Class (Wrench turners, maintenace, safety checker, pipe assembly). Operation Class (The actual operators of the steam device). Steam Engineer Class (The builders of the steam device and repairers), you could further break this down to Apprentices Steam Engineers and Assistant Steam Engineers. Steam Master (Only 1d4+1 in any area or Kingship guild), these are the ones that guard the total secrets of Steam Power.

What I am trying to convey is, not anyone member of the Steam Guild (except Steam Masters) have the knowledge to put all together and make it work. Each Class has a specific task with very little if any overlap so no one Class of the guild can figure it out the Steam Power "Magic".

If allowed magic for dwarves, the Steam Master could potray themselves as "Steam Wizards" that breathe "life" into the steam powered device. Another secret of the guild.

That's what I'd do if I allowed dwarfs steam power. This would limit the spread of it and the Steam Guild may only know "X" amount of steam knowledge passed down not to deviate from the knowledge they have or dire circumstances will occur. Maybe a story/legend in the Guild's history of attempting to do so resulting in a massive explosion with lot of damage and several killed and badly burned or such.

Anyway, that's my thoughts.

[Cinos]

I do have dwarves, and to an extent, gnomes, a rung up on the tech scale. Both are the worlds premier machines creating clockwork contraptions, and some steam driven tools (Generally for mining applications). Both however are seen a bit as a niche market (even by the majority of dwarves, who give it dubious glares as though it was a stones throw from arcane arts), and the world at whole sees most of the clockwork left to toys, trinkets and things nobles use to show off wealth rather then any real practical applications. Only gnomes take the work very seriously, and generally focus on clockwork and gear driven systems, music boxes, windup toys, clocks and things like that, as well as ballista and similar large scale weapons (dwarves tend to corner that area of it).

I'm not opposed to the idea of steamworks in a fantasy setting (rather like steampunk as a whole), but I have a very narrow idea of what is and isn't in my PF settings, and I also have to rationalize why the rest of the world isn't all over something as huge as real, effective, steampower.

[azazel1024]

I like PFRPG without the dwarves with steam power.

However, If one does I would make it very secretive Steam Guild with only its few top memebers knowing all the secrets of steam. Have an Apprentice Class (Water toters, gofers, guage watchers, fire stokers). A 2nd Assistance Class (Pipe connectors, pulley assembly, valve operators). A 1st Assistance Class (Wrench turners, maintenace, safety checker, pipe assembly). Operation Class (The actual operators of the steam device). Steam Engineer Class (The builders of the steam device and repairers), you could further break this down to Apprentices Steam Engineers and Assistant Steam Engineers. Steam Master (Only 1d4+1 in any area or Kingship guild), these are the ones that guard the total secrets of Steam Power.

What I am trying to convey is, not anyone member of the Steam Guild (except Steam Masters) have the knowledge to put all together and make it work. Each Class has a specific task with very little if any overlap so no one Class of the guild can figure it out the Steam Power "Magic".

If allowed magic for dwarves, the Steam Master could potray themselves as "Steam Wizards" that breathe "life" into the steam powered device. Another secret of the guild.

That's what I'd do if I allowed dwarfs steam power. This would limit the spread of it and the Steam Guild may only know "X" amount of steam knowledge passed down not to deviate from the knowledge they have or dire circumstances will occur. Maybe a story/legend in the Guild's history of attempting to do so resulting in a massive explosion with lot of damage and several killed and badly burned or such.

Anyway, that's my thoughts.

The only problem with this is that we know the PFRPG world does have some science. Not extensive, and not exactly 21st century levels of understanding, but at least medieval european levels of understanding of science. Any "scientist" or I should lay well learned scholar would be able to ponder out how and to some degree why a steam engine works.

Seperate out classes of individuals to work on, create and maintain different aspects of a steam engine wouldn't prevent a relatively smart and well educated person from figuring it out with an our or three of study.

[bigbobsr6000]

The only problem with this is that we know the PFRPG world does have some science. Not extensive, and not exactly 21st century levels of understanding, but at least medieval european levels of understanding of science. Any "scientist" or I should lay well learned scholar would be able to ponder out how and to some degree why a steam engine works.

Seperate out classes of individuals to work on, create and maintain different aspects of a steam engine wouldn't prevent a relatively smart and well educated person from figuring it out with an our or three of study.

Dang it! Stop making sense!

Only if you allow it to happen in the world/campaign the way you said. If I want it to remain a secret it will, plain and simple.

[Severus Snape]

Let me weigh in on this debate if I might. If I step on someone's toes, or bring up a point that has already been beaten to death, just slap me with a copy of Monsters & Animals.

The way I see it, there are a couple of things that need to be thought about when talking about technology in a medival fantasy setting. They are:

1. The current level of technology in the campaign;
2. What "real-world" medieval technology do you allow in your campaign;
3. Characters who want to invent new things, technologically speaking.

So let's deal with each of them, shall we?

CURRENT LEVEL OF TECHNOLOGY
Depending on which campaign you are in, you are somewhere between the bronze and iron ages in terms of technology. Swords, armor, chariots, catapults and other siege weapons, etc. These are all considered to be standard fantasy items, and nobody says anything about them. Why? Because it's assumed that they are included in the setting.

But if you're current level of technology is the bronze age, you aren't going to have items that were common in the iron age. And vice versa - with the advent of technology, bronze age items were replaced with iron age equivalents. Granted, the bronze age ended in Europe at about 750 BCE, but this time period could be considered medival Europe even if the formal feudal system hadn't been fully developed yet.

So it's important to figure out which age your game is set in, so you know what weapons and armor and other implements of medium destruction are allowed. But, as I already stated, there are some things that are just assumed to be there, so I guess we are all dealing with the iron age, right?

REAL-WORLD TECHNOLOGY ALLOWABLE IN YOUR CAMPAIGN
It's no secret that the Chinese had gunpowder well before the iron age started. And that the Romans invented roads, heating systems, aqueducts, and all kinds of other things that made life "easier" way back when. But which of these things do you allow in your campaigns?

I've seen the arguments for and against gunpowder and greek fire, and I agree that at the start of any campaign they shouldn't be allowed. But even the major medival fantasy role-playing game out there, in it's second edition (yes, I'm looking at you AD&D) had the Arquebus as a usable weapon. Die-hard AD&D players used it and never once complained about it. It was expensive, took far too long to reload, and had a 25% chance of backfiring on you, but people still used it. So do you allow a comparable muzzle-loader to be used in your campaigns?

And what about greek fire? Do you allow your players to light a normal oil flask on fire and launch it? If so, that's just poor man's greek fire. It doesn't have the same explosive effect, but it's still a viable way to blow stuff up. And if nothing else, it acts more like napalm than a grenade because the flaming oil can coat someone and burn them to death instead of the insta-explosive kill. So do you allow greek fire?

What about if a player or group thereof finds a large supply of sulfur? What do you do about that? Which leads me to...

CHARACTERS WHO WANT TO INVENT STUFF
Take the above idea about sulfur. Say a group of PCs comes across a rather large pile of it and one of them is so clumsy they accidentally drop a lit torch on it. They aren't going to say "Well, that was interesting, but I can't ever remember this because the GM said I can't invent stuff". You know darned well players are going to go actively looking for sulfuric deposits. Especially Alchemist PCs so they can try to create black powder.

What if a player is holding some copper wire, say some that was made for a pair of spectacles, and then builds up (not intentionally) a static electric charge? That copper wire is going to conduct the electricity away from the player towards the first metallic object they touch. Again, the player won't say that they can't remember it. Quite the opposite - most players will want to try to duplicate the effect, possibly in the best fashion to create the biggest charge they can.

Take the same player with the copper wire who has a compass. Only a matter of time before they pull the magnet out of the compass, wrap the wire around it, and try generating electricity with it. And they will probably do so by building a water wheel. Which, by the way, was already around in the middle ages (the wheel itself, not the electricity generating thing), so it isn't that hard to get one and start tinkering around with it.

As far as steam power goes, that's just common sense for players. Pot of hot water + no lid for steam to escape + really hot fire = exploding pot. Creative characters will get all kinds of ideas from this, and will want to create ways to harness and use the steam's power.

SO WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?
That's the call of the GM. Personally, I don't allow the game to start with a lot of technology, but if the players are creative enough and find ways to duplicate things in-game (even after the serious skill check penalties), then I'll allow it. I don't think the GM should discourage a player from trying to invent something just because you don't want that technology in your game. In fact, I think it can be severely detrimental to players to invent stuff.

"What's that, you say? You've invented black powder, and you've got the only stash? I think not - your castle was robbed while you were off killing orcs, and now someone else has it AND the formula. And it just so happens that someone is your arch-nemesis. You better get it back and destroy it before he/she figures out how powerful it is and tries to take over the world."

[pblackcrow]

Well, sense we are talking about steam tech, I would like to point out that the first steam device was invented by Hero of Alexandria, a Greek that lived in Egypt sometime before 300BCE. I can't recall the exact time though. And the first "laser" was also invented around that time frame, or earlier.

The first steam "weapon" credit goes to who ever wrote the myth of Icarus and the character Daedalus. Although Daedalus uses water in some and steam in others to kill the king.

Regardless, the BEST use of steam was invented by the ancient Egyptians. With out it, Irish Gaelic; not English would be the language of trade. I'm talking about the still! Though, in Egypt it was used to distill more than whiskey. It was used to distill oils, water, etc.

[pblackcrow]

Let me weigh in on this debate if I might. If I step on someone's toes, or bring up a point that has already been beaten to death, just slap me with a copy of Monsters & Animals.

The way I see it, there are a couple of things that need to be thought about when talking about technology in a medival fantasy setting. They are:

1. The current level of technology in the campaign;
2. What "real-world" medieval technology do you allow in your campaign;
3. Characters who want to invent new things, technologically speaking.

So let's deal with each of them, shall we?

CURRENT LEVEL OF TECHNOLOGY
Depending on which campaign you are in, you are somewhere between the bronze and iron ages in terms of technology. Swords, armor, chariots, catapults and other siege weapons, etc. These are all considered to be standard fantasy items, and nobody says anything about them. Why? Because it's assumed that they are included in the setting.

But if you're current level of technology is the bronze age, you aren't going to have items that were common in the iron age. And vice versa - with the advent of technology, bronze age items were replaced with iron age equivalents. Granted, the bronze age ended in Europe at about 750 BCE, but this time period could be considered medival Europe even if the formal feudal system hadn't been fully developed yet.

So it's important to figure out which age your game is set in, so you know what weapons and armor and other implements of medium destruction are allowed. But, as I already stated, there are some things that are just assumed to be there, so I guess we are all dealing with the iron age, right?

REAL-WORLD TECHNOLOGY ALLOWABLE IN YOUR CAMPAIGN
It's no secret that the Chinese had gunpowder well before the iron age started. And that the Romans invented roads, heating systems, aqueducts, and all kinds of other things that made life "easier" way back when. But which of these things do you allow in your campaigns?

I've seen the arguments for and against gunpowder and greek fire, and I agree that at the start of any campaign they shouldn't be allowed. But even the major medival fantasy role-playing game out there, in it's second edition (yes, I'm looking at you AD&D) had the Arquebus as a usable weapon. Die-hard AD&D players used it and never once complained about it. It was expensive, took far too long to reload, and had a 25% chance of backfiring on you, but people still used it. So do you allow a comparable muzzle-loader to be used in your campaigns?

And what about greek fire? Do you allow your players to light a normal oil flask on fire and launch it? If so, that's just poor man's greek fire. It doesn't have the same explosive effect, but it's still a viable way to blow stuff up. And if nothing else, it acts more like napalm than a grenade because the flaming oil can coat someone and burn them to death instead of the insta-explosive kill. So do you allow greek fire?

What about if a player or group thereof finds a large supply of sulfur? What do you do about that? Which leads me to...

CHARACTERS WHO WANT TO INVENT STUFF
Take the above idea about sulfur. Say a group of PCs comes across a rather large pile of it and one of them is so clumsy they accidentally drop a lit torch on it. They aren't going to say "Well, that was interesting, but I can't ever remember this because the GM said I can't invent stuff". You know darned well players are going to go actively looking for sulfuric deposits. Especially Alchemist PCs so they can try to create black powder.

What if a player is holding some copper wire, say some that was made for a pair of spectacles, and then builds up (not intentionally) a static electric charge? That copper wire is going to conduct the electricity away from the player towards the first metallic object they touch. Again, the player won't say that they can't remember it. Quite the opposite - most players will want to try to duplicate the effect, possibly in the best fashion to create the biggest charge they can.

Take the same player with the copper wire who has a compass. Only a matter of time before they pull the magnet out of the compass, wrap the wire around it, and try generating electricity with it. And they will probably do so by building a water wheel. Which, by the way, was already around in the middle ages (the wheel itself, not the electricity generating thing), so it isn't that hard to get one and start tinkering around with it.

As far as steam power goes, that's just common sense for players. Pot of hot water + no lid for steam to escape + really hot fire = exploding pot. Creative characters will get all kinds of ideas from this, and will want to create ways to harness and use the steam's power.

SO WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?
That's the call of the GM. Personally, I don't allow the game to start with a lot of technology, but if the players are creative enough and find ways to duplicate things in-game (even after the serious skill check penalties), then I'll allow it. I don't think the GM should discourage a player from trying to invent something just because you don't want that technology in your game. In fact, I think it can be severely detrimental to players to invent stuff.

"What's that, you say? You've invented black powder, and you've got the only stash? I think not - your castle was robbed while you were off killing orcs, and now someone else has it AND the formula. And it just so happens that someone is your arch-nemesis. You better get it back and destroy it before he/she figures out how powerful it is and tries to take over the world."

I agree.

Now that I have had proper time to sleep...I wish to edit this.

I agree with what you started out with saying. However, you sorta lost me when you were talking about burning sulfur leading to gun powder...1. Sulfur stinks, and if it burned oh Gods what a stench! 2. The rather interesting part is that ancient physicians and priests; up until the early 1900s used to burn it to purify buildings. So, burning it would not exactly be anything new. However, if there was antiquity bat droppings on it...maybe. But really, the only thing that needed to be in a reasonable quantity is not sulfur. It's saltpeter.

[azazel1024]

Actually...your compass bit is unlikely.

Compasses weren't invented until later. Lodestones were used in Ancient China around 200BC as fortune telling devices, but they were used as compasses till much later. Around 800AD was when compasses with a magnitized needle was first developed (also in China) and it wasn't until around 1000AD that they started being used as nautical navigational aids supposedly. The first written historical account of a compasses use as a nautical navigation aid is from Zheng He from about 1400AD.

So, the "principal" was known in China millenia ago, but it took millenia before they started really being used for anything other than "neat toys".

It wasn't until around the high middle ages/early reniassance that compasses were discovered/introduced to Europe.

For electricity, the principal wasn't firmly developed until 1600. It was a heck of a leap from figuring out electricity to actually creating it/harnessing it. The word was developed in 1600 because of noticing that amber rubbed on cloth produced a spark. It took well over a century to develop things like layden jars (1740's) and batteries (1800). Generators took even longer.

Simply noticing that sulfur burns doesn't get you gunpowder. It probably doesn't even get you experimenting with mixing saltpeter and charcoal in to it.

I am not saying that a character or player group can't invent something, but most discoveries of things like gun powder, electricity, etc don't often happen with a single accident. Oh, now they might...but often it is an unexpected outcome of years and YEARS of dedicated research by an individual. At least any practical application or advance in the area certainly is.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I think you would have to severely limit it, but where do you draw the line? This is something that would easily be abused, in my opinion.

[Nightmask]

I think you would have to severely limit it, but where do you draw the line? This is something that would easily be abused, in my opinion.

I think 'abused' is a bit strong. Maybe get out of control and take the campaign world in an unexpected direction but hardly abused.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I think you would have to severely limit it, but where do you draw the line? This is something that would easily be abused, in my opinion.

I think 'abused' is a bit strong. Maybe get out of control and take the campaign world in an unexpected direction but hardly abused.

Perhaps.

[Nightmask]

Actually...your compass bit is unlikely.

Compasses weren't invented until later. Lodestones were used in Ancient China around 200BC as fortune telling devices, but they were used as compasses till much later. Around 800AD was when compasses with a magnitized needle was first developed (also in China) and it wasn't until around 1000AD that they started being used as nautical navigational aids supposedly. The first written historical account of a compasses use as a nautical navigation aid is from Zheng He from about 1400AD.

So, the "principal" was known in China millenia ago, but it took millenia before they started really being used for anything other than "neat toys".

It wasn't until around the high middle ages/early reniassance that compasses were discovered/introduced to Europe.

For electricity, the principal wasn't firmly developed until 1600. It was a heck of a leap from figuring out electricity to actually creating it/harnessing it. The word was developed in 1600 because of noticing that amber rubbed on cloth produced a spark. It took well over a century to develop things like layden jars (1740's) and batteries (1800). Generators took even longer.

Simply noticing that sulfur burns doesn't get you gunpowder. It probably doesn't even get you experimenting with mixing saltpeter and charcoal in to it.

I am not saying that a character or player group can't invent something, but most discoveries of things like gun powder, electricity, etc don't often happen with a single accident. Oh, now they might...but often it is an unexpected outcome of years and YEARS of dedicated research by an individual. At least any practical application or advance in the area certainly is.

There are a few examples of ancient batteries and crude electroplating millenia before the most commonly known uses. Some are disputed but that seems more because they don't want to think anyone could have come up with the discoveries that far back when in truth humanity has a lot of evidence of cycles and discoveries being made and lost due to natural or unnatural (i.e. war) disasters. Easy for something to go missing back then when some invaders come along destroying everything that they don't understand or just to wipe out enough that the locals are properly helpless.

While it's not generally a feature of Palladium consider that you often see mages creating a range of spells from fairly trivial to epic in scope. Those discoveries are far far more impressive than they get credit for, requiring fantastic levels of study and breakthroughs to develop but are taken in stride as just fine, yet oddly scientific discovery is treated as something just too hard to happen. It's the bias to force the setting to be all about the magic and weight things against non-magical development even though there should be. Just because a mage somewhere might be able to cast a spell to make something easier the vast majority of people don't have any access to that they're going to still be trying to make improvements and get by without the mages.

[azazel1024]

Oh I agree, but one thing to keep in mind is that they were still limited applications of electricity with, to the best of our modern knowledge, little idea of what was going on. As near as we can tell, they knew that if they put X in to a jar with Y seperating it from Z and put some strips of copper in to X and Z and they could use that connected to some water with tin in it and a piece of copper pot and the tin would somehow magically move to the copper over a couple of days.

Or at least something to that effect.

Now that could be the modern scientific commmunity trying to be arogant that we only understand a lot of things recently, but if they truely did have a very good understanding of eletricity and its principals odds are good they would have developed much more advanced things that we would have found and/or passed along more in the way of knowledge.


Magic is understood in the world of PFRPG. Magic can already do a lot, and if there is something it can't do, it is a more understood process to research or try to develop new magic. People don't have the mindset for scientific discovery. They aren't going to go "I have a problem and no solution. I should research things to see if there is a scientific principal or maybe a mechanical device I could create that would solve the problem." They go, "hmm I have a problem. Can a mage solve it for me?" And the mage certainly isn't going to go "Well, I don't have the magic for that, I must go study the natural world or mechanical devices to find a solution" They are going to go "I should study more magic".

I am just saying, there was a lot of what seems very advanced things out ancestors created, but they also never had magic to come up with solutions. That doesn't mean in PFRPG there wouldn't be any of it. Sometimes basic natural mechanics is much easier than magic (as not everyone can use magic, and even a powerful mage is limited in how much PPE they have). However, some things would take so much research to really come up with, its unlikely anyone would put the effort in. Some things are just accidents of discovery, but a lot of times they are accidents of discovery because someone is researching a solution to a problem (even if the discovery doesn't solve that problem).

[Nightmask]

Humans have done quite a bit with things even when they didn't really understand them, and a lot of discoveries didn't get fully exploited because the pacing and access to shared knowledge was almost non-existent most of the time in history and by the time someone had the chance to start exploring things they got killed off. Wasn't one of the greatest mathematicians in ancient times, discoverer of one of the modern branches of mathematics killed in the streets by a common soldier because he ticked the guy off and the guy just thought he was some old man?

Dwarven society (and Elven) have long term storage of knowledge and an industrious attitude on the other hand. They tend to be far more resistant to historical factors that wipe out human knowledge and put them back to scratch, once they got basic steam technology figured out they'd be exploring it as far as it could be taken. It's just how they're written to be like. The only slow part of the development would just come as a result of the longer lifespan making them take longer to more meticulously explore things rather than rush in like humans do.

[GrampaAllen]

Actualy I have always had that dwarves knew of the tech but only used it in their home lands and most of those were shattered.
They keep it secret through ruthless means since both they and elves are long term enough thinkers to realise what would happen if humans got ahold of it.
AKA destroy all of the remaining elder races.
Steam Gunpowder Powered flight (in all of its forms) would allow humanity to use it's numbers to completely wipe out the others.
All technology needs an industrial base and no one on palladium can compete with the humans on that front.
Just look at what DaVinci came up with in his short time.

[Wōdwulf Seaxaning]

If I run PF in the future ..they'll have steampowered technology & black powder weaponry but no magic. Iron Kingdoms is one of my favorite settings , so I have no issue with it.The other races will not use it as they have magic & frankly the Dwarves don't like sharing their secrets.

[Cinos]

If I run PF in the future ..they'll have steampowered technology & black powder weaponry but no magic. Iron Kingdoms is one of my favorite settings , so I have no issue with it.The other races will not use it as they have magic & frankly the Dwarves don't like sharing their secrets.

Why not just run an Iron Kingdoms game? The setting makes 3.5 pretty tolerable. Or just wait a year when Full Metal Fantasy is slated to get rolling. PP at least has good release reliability

[Wōdwulf Seaxaning]

If I run PF in the future ..they'll have steampowered technology & black powder weaponry but no magic. Iron Kingdoms is one of my favorite settings , so I have no issue with it.The other races will not use it as they have magic & frankly the Dwarves don't like sharing their secrets.

Why not just run an Iron Kingdoms game? The setting makes 3.5 pretty tolerable. Or just wait a year when Full Metal Fantasy is slated to get rolling. PP at least has good release reliability

Because I'm not paying a buttload of cash for the books & prefer PFRPG to 3.5. Have Dwarves, Gnomes & possibly Kolbolds use Stream Technology n' Black Powder weapons but not many others fits my visions of Palladium Fantasy. I like PF alot as well..I have a few minor issues (like the no half-races..I'll fix that) but I can afford PF books easier than IK books or PDFs.

[Heres_Beefy]

I think if moderated and not abused this would add a neat aspect to the game play.
I can see Dwarfs using the tech in mining as well as defensively perhaps large steam powered cannons or a large automatic steam powered repeating ballista.
Why no other race is using it? simple dwarfs don’t share well why would they give out there secrets hell how many other folk ever see the inside of a dwarven mine?
Even if you got in you’d have nooo idea how to run the equipment.
Anyway i think it’s a neat idea and id try it out.