Rifts 'aimed shot' rule question

[dragonfett]

He is right that Aimed shots now take 2 attacks. I would just rule it that it takes your character 30 seconds (2 melees) to make the aimed shot. At first I had thought that you still had at least 2 attacks per melee as the whole controversy over the new Hand to Hand Skills was that everyone got two attacks for living (thus increasing the base attacks per melee by two, from 2 to 4 for Basic, Expert, and Martial Arts).

So I guess we really don't get 2 attacks for living then.

[jaymz]

I'm a newly returned Rifts player, and I've just purchased an Ultimate Edition as my original printing is rather worn. I've noticed changes to some of the rules that I think maybe I'm misreading.

When I played with the original book, I think every character started with two attacks regardless of training, and a modern weapon aimed shot used one attack. Anyone with a W.P. could get two aimed shots per round with the aimed bonuses. If I'm reading the updated rules right, characters with no hand-to-hand training now start with only one attack, and an aimed shot now requires two attacks to get the bonus.

Is that right? If so, I have a problem with my Rogue Scholar. He gets one modern weapon proficiency to start (I took energy rifle), but no hand-to-hand training, and I opted to skip it altogether. Upon playing my character, the GM informed me that despite my having W.P. Energy Rifle, I couldn't attempt an aimed shot, as that required two melee actions and I only had one. I argued that anyone with any training at all should be able to line up one aimed shot in 15 seconds, but he says the rules won't allow for it.

Is my GM correct? If so, how can I improve my Rogue Scientist's modern weapon skills? He mentioned taking any hand-to-hand skill, but it seems like we must be doing it wrong if my character has to practice punching and kicking in order to fire a rifle more accurately.

Thanks for any insight. It's fun playing again - I can't believe my original copy is twenty years old!

Tom

Your GM is wrong in that you can still take the aimed shot but it woudl infact take you 2 melee rounds (30 seconds) to make teh shot sho you essentially cannot act until teh 2nd melee round (when the shot actually takes place).

Also it isn't a matter of punching and kicking makes you a better shooter , but HTH training makes you more capable at hand-eye co-ordination over all thus you can do more in less time. Without it you are still very skilled at firing the wepons you just aren't capable enough to do it faster/quicker than those who have had "combat" training. It would be like comparing a Competetive shooter to a military sniper. They may be just as accuarate as the other but the military guy can do it quicker.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Well, so far the answer has been answered fairly well above, but I'll try to throw out a few options on the matter all the same.

1: It takes two actions. Currently it will take two melee rounds (30 seconds) to line up the shot.
2: You take a Hand to Hand form to fix the problem.
3: You take Boxing (this needs to be an O.C.C. Related Skill) and that'll give you 1 attack, so now you can do it in one melee round (15 seconds).
4: In addition to 1 attack per melee round, you have 2 non-combat actions. Your GM accomodates your situation (house rule incoming) and rules that aiming is a non-combat action, or at the very least you can use two non-combat actions as aiming (so you won't be able to do anything else, but you can do it in 15 seconds). As a GM I would allow this, but that does not mean every GM will or that they are bad if they don't. This is a house rule, but I thought to mention it.
5: You're trying to aim because you're remembering the old rules. So let me ask, why are you trying to aim? Is it for a +2 to strike? Or do you think that you need to aim to get the bonuses from the W.P.? In the original Rifts book, your W.P. gives you bonuses to strike when you aim. In Rifts: Ultimate Edition (R:UE), you get bonuses just for having the W.P. So those bonuses provided are EVERY time you fire, aimed or not. If that's all you want, then problem solved. If you're already including the W.P. bonuses and just looking for the additional +2 to strike (R:UE, page 361), then see above (options 1-4).

Anyways, I think that's all for now. I'm actually hoping it was all a misunderstanding (remembering old rules) and 5 will fix your problem. If not, then I wish you all the best of luck in figuring out a solution with your GM. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Dustin Fireblade]

As Prysus mentioned just because you can't take an "Aimed" shot doesn't mean you can't shoot. Granted it's not much but you can still shoot and not suffer the "wild shot" penalty. This is called 'Single Shot' firing.

Now if you are still 1st level, the Rogue Scholar gets a new secondary skill at level 2 - Basic HtH Combat can then be selected as a secondary skill, and this will solve your problems, allowing you to make two "Aimed" shots (or 4 single shots) per melee round.

In the meantime, consider using your non-combat actions to provide support to your team by either piloting, jamming, hacking or whatever other skills you have at the moment.

There's also the use of grenade's that can be considered as well.

[Rimmer]

For some reason being able to kick and punch makes you a better shot, something about hand eye co-ordination or something, which is wrong since PP has nothing to do with shooting your rifle, at least by PB rules.

By PB thinking Jackie Chan should be able to out shoot a Grammaton Cleric.




Spelling aside, 10 geek points if you get the reference ;P

[jaymz]

you dont need high PP to have good hand eye coordination and good hand eye coordination doesn neccessarily a mean a high PP.

It isnt the PP that makes the difference it is the way your brain thinks. No combat training your brain doesn't act a certain way where as with combat training it does.

If you don't agree then you must also think anyone who learns how to be a marksman with a hunting rifle MUST be as good a military sniper.

[dragonfett]

I still don't understand how the speed that you can move your fists and feet relate for throwing punches and kicks relates to how fast your finger can pull the trigger.

[jaymz]

I still don't understand how the speed that you can move your fists and feet relate for throwing punches and kicks relates to how fast your finger can pull the trigger.

It isn't DIRECTLY related. It has to do with how your brain works. How many times do I have to say that?

[Rimmer]

you dont need high PP to have good hand eye coordination and good hand eye coordination doesn neccessarily a mean a high PP.

It isnt the PP that makes the difference it is the way your brain thinks. No combat training your brain doesn't act a certain way where as with combat training it does.

If you don't agree then you must also think anyone who learns how to be a marksman with a hunting rifle MUST be as good a military sniper.

RUE Page 283, "A character with low PP has very poor hand eye co-ordination"

Unless you think it should be based on IQ ?

While both would be good on the range you wouldn't take the marksman out in the "Feild", but by your annalogy the Military sniper with H2H basic would be inferior to the marksman with H2H MA, dispite what I would assume to be vastly superior training received in the Military.

[jaymz]

you dont need high PP to have good hand eye coordination and good hand eye coordination doesn neccessarily a mean a high PP.

It isnt the PP that makes the difference it is the way your brain thinks. No combat training your brain doesn't act a certain way where as with combat training it does.

If you don't agree then you must also think anyone who learns how to be a marksman with a hunting rifle MUST be as good a military sniper.

RUE Page 283, "A character with low PP has very poor hand eye co-ordination"

Unless you think it should be based on IQ ?

While both would be good on the range you wouldn't take the marksman out in the "Feild", but by your annalogy the Military sniper with H2H basic would be inferior to the marksman with H2H MA, dispite what I would assume to be vastly superior training received in the Military.

Well my explaination makes more sense than no explaination at all. Also if PP is hand-eye co-ordination then PP SHOULD affect modenr weapons the same as HTH weapons yet it doesn't.

As for the nsniper versus marksman, my point wasn;t about the field but that the combat trained sniper woudl be able to do just as well but at a quicker pace than the marksman. That would be the advantage of the combat training. While each shot woudl be just as accurate the military sniper could get teh shots off at a quicker pace. In teh case of this thread, my explaination works.

Also any civilian with what is essentially combat training woudl at some point have been combat trained or trained by someone with said combat training. Otherwise they shoudl only be able to get boxing and that would still allow for the person (low PP or no low PP) to increase hand-eye co-ordination thus being able to do things quicker as they have been taught to in fact think in a way to do said thigns quicker.

[Rimmer]

The only explanation I can see is "the rule is broken and or wrong" which considering nobody at PB seems to have any idea on all things military does seem to be likley.

WP Rifle is discribed as Training and proficiency with Rifles, it does not specify Military or otherwise.

Lastley, no where that I can see in any PB book of any line has h2h MA been restricted to military personal. Even h2h Commando can be had by non military personal.

[jaymz]

The only explanation I can see is "the rule is broken and or wrong" which considering nobody at PB seems to have any idea on all things military does seem to be likley.

WP Rifle is discribed as Training and proficiency with Rifles, it does not specify Military or otherwise.

Lastley, no where that I can see in any PB book of any line has h2h MA been restricted to military personal. Even h2h Commando can be had by non military personal.

Reread my post. I did NOT say HTH Combat training was restricted. ANYWHERE. I said those who have it woudl have received said traingin from someone who had it. That could indicate a former merc or soldier trained them (quite likely in the Rifts setting all thigns considered) and sicne this is specific to Rifts and no the other games (except Dead Reign as that uses the same Modern Combat rules as RUE from what I have seen while no other PB games do) my explaination can at least wrok in context of the rules.

If you can come up with a better reason other than "the rules are broken" then please by all means do.

[Rimmer]

So everybody who has or can have h2h MA must have been taught by someone who is ex-military ?

h2h for some reason makes a better shooter than say, WP Rifle ?

By this sort of reasoning my 3rd degree black belt should make me a better shot than Billy the Kid, and for the record I am a lousy shot.







Seriously I am actually very bad, I managed to hit my self in Archery class sorta bad.

[jaymz]

So everybody who has or can have h2h MA must have been taught by someone who is ex-military ?

h2h for some reason makes a better shooter than say, WP Rifle ?

By this sort of reasoning my 3rd degree black belt should make me a better shot than Billy the Kid, and for the record I am a lousy shot.







Seriously I am actually very bad, I managed to hit my self in Archery class sorta bad.

So in other words, no you do not have any better nor can you come up with a better explaination to go along with the rules other than the rules are broken.

Also I made a qualifier. In teh world of Rifts it is likely to be an ex-military or merc trainging anyone in HTH combat. In Palladium's other games this argument is irrelevant since they do not use the same rules as Rifts for modern Wps (except for Dead Reign as I also stated earlier). In the context of THIS thread in accordance with the RULES AS WRITTEN, my explaination at least works.

In regards to you being a lousy shot, ok you are a 3rd degree blackbelt but do consider yourself to have a WP in any firearms? Apparently not thus you wouldn't get any bonuses with any firearms.

I'll ask you again, just to be sure.

Can YOU come up with a BETTER explaination that works WITHIN the RAW other than "the rule is broken"?

[jaymz]

As to the OP.

As you go up in level you will get additional "attacks" per melee though you will always be less than a combat trained person. Now does that meanyou are less accurate? No. Just means you aren;t capable of selecting and firing at targets as quickly. Boxing is a way to even the field a bit if you do not want your character to be "combat" oriented per se.

[Rimmer]

Which rifter had the optional ranged combat rules ? it was set like the h2h skills, basic, expert and MA where you could also select Ranged Combat: Infantry, Spec Ops or SNiper sorta thing. I found it very good.

[Dustin Fireblade]

Which rifter had the optional ranged combat rules ? it was set like the h2h skills, basic, expert and MA where you could also select Ranged Combat: Infantry, Spec Ops or SNiper sorta thing. I found it very good.

Rifter #11

[jaymz]

Which rifter had the optional ranged combat rules ? it was set like the h2h skills, basic, expert and MA where you could also select Ranged Combat: Infantry, Spec Ops or SNiper sorta thing. I found it very good.

It still uses your HTH attacks to deermine how often you can fire the weapon. It does not get seperate attacks per melee.

[Nemo235]

While I can sort of see why a HtH skill would provide extra attacks, I feel it should only work while fighting HtH.
Other combat skills should provide extra attacks according to their training.
As it is now, extra attacks from HtH also affects vehicle combat.
Characters with no specific training in guns or driving, in a live fire fight, get extra actions just for martial arts training?
How does that make sense?
Now remember, you can only answer by referring to the RAW.